| makofoto | 04-05-2005 02:35 PM |
Cosworth .... look at the stats under Tom and KC's name ... they are both National Champion Auto Crossers who grace us with their experience ...
| rautox | 04-05-2005 02:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]... I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]Your lack of appreciation for a simple answer delivered by a current national champ? :lol:
A lot of people are grateful for the input, here. It's typically delivered in a remarkably humble, [i]fwiw[/i] fashion. And when the [i]it's worth[/i] is from guys like Tom and/or KC, both of whom have won at nationals AND spoon-fed a LOT of good information to this forum, [i]it's worth[/i] a better reception, imho.
It's not like those snooty RX8 drivers forums here :lol: ;)
A lot of people are grateful for the input, here. It's typically delivered in a remarkably humble, [i]fwiw[/i] fashion. And when the [i]it's worth[/i] is from guys like Tom and/or KC, both of whom have won at nationals AND spoon-fed a LOT of good information to this forum, [i]it's worth[/i] a better reception, imho.
It's not like those snooty RX8 drivers forums here :lol: ;)
| AUTOwrXER | 04-05-2005 02:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]I have no chip nor do i know who Tom is either, so for him to mock me and claim that i should "just do..." without question doesn't really help me when i'm looking for some official info. I fully agree with disseminating the info out there. What little experience i've had in this arena i've gladly shared, but i never pass along unsubstantiated information.
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]
I would recommend this book to you: [url]http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=BOOK&PROD_CD=R-351[/url]
That will answer all your questions. Without being nearly as rigorous as that text, Tom has offered an alternate solution to the Tire Rack service. I have tried both and found them equally effective. IMO, they both ultimately cost about the same as the Tire Rack process does not wear away any tread rubber (which in my case is damn expensive tread rubber at about $1100 a set).
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]
I would recommend this book to you: [url]http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=BOOK&PROD_CD=R-351[/url]
That will answer all your questions. Without being nearly as rigorous as that text, Tom has offered an alternate solution to the Tire Rack service. I have tried both and found them equally effective. IMO, they both ultimately cost about the same as the Tire Rack process does not wear away any tread rubber (which in my case is damn expensive tread rubber at about $1100 a set).
| KC | 04-05-2005 02:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]I have no chip nor do i know who Tom is either, so for him to mock me and claim that i should "just do..." without question doesn't really help me when i'm looking for some official info. I fully agree with disseminating the info out there. What little experience i've had in this arena i've gladly shared, but i never pass along unsubstantiated information.
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]
We're autocrossers. We are passing on information what autocrossers that haven't paid the TireRack heat cycling fee have been doing for years.
'Just do" isn't mocking anyone. You're just reading it wrong.
"I want a cup of coffee"
"Just go to the coffee pot and get some"
Same context here.
"What's a way to heat cycle a tire"
"Just run for 20 min on the highway and end with some skidpad time."
I see no one mocking anyone here.
If you wish to dismiss my anaolgy, that's fine. I have no problem with that. Just before you completely do so, I've only been auto-xing for 9 years now. Much of my life I am surrounded by those who do track days and auto-x. This information has been out there for a long time.
If you're looking for maximum performance, don't use the tires. They won't wear out. That's the best answer anyone can give. Heatcycling can be done on the machine (for convenience) or on the road (for free). All the machine does is SIMULATE driving at speed on the highway. The choice is yours.
From the Tire Rack link on heat cycling:
[url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/heatcycletech.jsp[/url]
[QUOTE]Measuring the tread temperatures with a tire pyrometer we confirmed that in our controlled environment we were able to achieve appropriate and more consistent temperatures across the tire's tread without causing treadwear. All of these are significant improvements over heat cycling tires on our test track. And the 24 to 48 hour waiting period efficiently occurs while the tires are in transit to you. That means the tires are ready to use when they arrive! [/QUOTE]
The only thing that happens with 'On the road' heat cycling, is you add wear. The Tire Rack solution doesn't (according to the page). I highly doubt they get the tire up to 200 degrees either... that can only be done with adding heat (which tire rack says they don't do) or by FRICTION. You can't have friction without having wear.
Is there an exact number of runs wich a tire will last? No. No one can even guarentee that becuase it comes down to a number of factors such as:
Car Weight
Car Alignment
Surface (Concrete, Asphalt and all of their varying levels of grippiness)
Surface temp
Ambient Temp
Cooling Cycles
Length of course
Alll of these factors will determine how long a tire will last in an auto-x environment. To say you WILL ghet XX number of runs more is a claim that NO ONE will be able to answer unless the tire is run in the same conditions for everyone. And that doesn't happen.
SO what you're looking for as a concrete answer to your ratio question is:
Maybe it isn't.
--kC
I think your example analogy is moot because one fellow here claimed to be at a Kumho seminar where they told them what was necessary to perform a proper pre-use heat cycling for maximal lifespan and performance. Driving a couple laps around the block was explicitly not one of those options. Either he's lying or he's not. Who's to say. If it true, then Tom and your recommendation as that as an alternative is invalid and the only proper way to do it is with a machine heat cycle.
I would love to pay less (who wouldn't???) for the tire but when you consider the cost of the tire, shipping, mounting and heat cycling versus not heat cycling with respect to the livespan of the tire (lets say in runs), then perhaps the $$$/run ratio is better when machine cycled.
As for the attack part, I *AM* trying to find out the real deal here, so what the problem?[/QUOTE]
We're autocrossers. We are passing on information what autocrossers that haven't paid the TireRack heat cycling fee have been doing for years.
'Just do" isn't mocking anyone. You're just reading it wrong.
"I want a cup of coffee"
"Just go to the coffee pot and get some"
Same context here.
"What's a way to heat cycle a tire"
"Just run for 20 min on the highway and end with some skidpad time."
I see no one mocking anyone here.
If you wish to dismiss my anaolgy, that's fine. I have no problem with that. Just before you completely do so, I've only been auto-xing for 9 years now. Much of my life I am surrounded by those who do track days and auto-x. This information has been out there for a long time.
If you're looking for maximum performance, don't use the tires. They won't wear out. That's the best answer anyone can give. Heatcycling can be done on the machine (for convenience) or on the road (for free). All the machine does is SIMULATE driving at speed on the highway. The choice is yours.
From the Tire Rack link on heat cycling:
[url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/heatcycletech.jsp[/url]
[QUOTE]Measuring the tread temperatures with a tire pyrometer we confirmed that in our controlled environment we were able to achieve appropriate and more consistent temperatures across the tire's tread without causing treadwear. All of these are significant improvements over heat cycling tires on our test track. And the 24 to 48 hour waiting period efficiently occurs while the tires are in transit to you. That means the tires are ready to use when they arrive! [/QUOTE]
The only thing that happens with 'On the road' heat cycling, is you add wear. The Tire Rack solution doesn't (according to the page). I highly doubt they get the tire up to 200 degrees either... that can only be done with adding heat (which tire rack says they don't do) or by FRICTION. You can't have friction without having wear.
Is there an exact number of runs wich a tire will last? No. No one can even guarentee that becuase it comes down to a number of factors such as:
Car Weight
Car Alignment
Surface (Concrete, Asphalt and all of their varying levels of grippiness)
Surface temp
Ambient Temp
Cooling Cycles
Length of course
Alll of these factors will determine how long a tire will last in an auto-x environment. To say you WILL ghet XX number of runs more is a claim that NO ONE will be able to answer unless the tire is run in the same conditions for everyone. And that doesn't happen.
SO what you're looking for as a concrete answer to your ratio question is:
Maybe it isn't.
--kC
| dwx | 04-05-2005 02:44 PM |
I've been to tirerack 5-6 times and the device they use to heat cycle tires is just a modified wheel balancer that heats the tires up uniformly for X amount of time.
Last year I just did what Tom and others have suggested and that's do the initial heat cycle myself.
Last year I just did what Tom and others have suggested and that's do the initial heat cycle myself.
| KC | 04-05-2005 02:47 PM |
Damn, where's the diploma of tire when I need it? :lol: Anyone?
Edit: Found it...
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/tire.jpg[/IMG]
Edit: Found it...
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/tire.jpg[/IMG]
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Cosworth .... look at the stats under Tom and KC's name ... they are both National Champion Auto Crossers who grace us with their experience ...[/QUOTE]
Hey, you know what, that great, good for them. For what it's worth, I wish them many more. That doesn't mean any of those individuals is all knowing. I just like to see some hard evidence before i subscribe to a certain train of thought regardless of thier status. That's not too much to ask is it?
Hey, you know what, that great, good for them. For what it's worth, I wish them many more. That doesn't mean any of those individuals is all knowing. I just like to see some hard evidence before i subscribe to a certain train of thought regardless of thier status. That's not too much to ask is it?
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 02:52 PM |
[QUOTE=rautox]Your lack of appreciation for a simple answer delivered by a current national champ? :lol:
A lot of people are grateful for the input, here. It's typically delivered in a remarkably humble, [i]fwiw[/i] fashion. [/QUOTE]
And sometimes it isn't.
A lot of people are grateful for the input, here. It's typically delivered in a remarkably humble, [i]fwiw[/i] fashion. [/QUOTE]
And sometimes it isn't.
| KC | 04-05-2005 02:53 PM |
Cosworth... what we're saying is... there is none. There will never be.
The only time evidence that a tire will last 'longer' is if the tire is used on the same car, in the same conditions, at the same event. Once any one of those variables change, it becomes immeasureable. Not to mention, different tire SIZES will act differently on different cars becuase of the increase or decrease of contact patch. Change in tire pressure, or alignment, can make the tire wear out more or less faster.
What you're asking for really can't be proved. Just that... heat cycleing them will have them last 'longer'. By how much? It's anyones guess.
Some actually file 'Heat Cycle' under "myth". Some say it will get them 5 more runs before they fall off. It's really anyones guess. But I did read the info on tireracks site. It makes "sense" to heat cycle them (by whatever means) to get more life out of them. THere is no one "right way" to accomplish this.
As others have said.. you want proof? Buy some non-heat treated tires and run them... and hope all the conditions are the same for the year... or hope next year.. they don't change the compound.. becuase that throws things WAYYYY outta whack! :D
--kC
The only time evidence that a tire will last 'longer' is if the tire is used on the same car, in the same conditions, at the same event. Once any one of those variables change, it becomes immeasureable. Not to mention, different tire SIZES will act differently on different cars becuase of the increase or decrease of contact patch. Change in tire pressure, or alignment, can make the tire wear out more or less faster.
What you're asking for really can't be proved. Just that... heat cycleing them will have them last 'longer'. By how much? It's anyones guess.
Some actually file 'Heat Cycle' under "myth". Some say it will get them 5 more runs before they fall off. It's really anyones guess. But I did read the info on tireracks site. It makes "sense" to heat cycle them (by whatever means) to get more life out of them. THere is no one "right way" to accomplish this.
As others have said.. you want proof? Buy some non-heat treated tires and run them... and hope all the conditions are the same for the year... or hope next year.. they don't change the compound.. becuase that throws things WAYYYY outta whack! :D
--kC
| rautox | 04-05-2005 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Damn, where's the diploma of tire when I need it? :lol: Anyone?
Edit: Found it...
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/tire.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Is that jdm black ink?
:eek: :eek:
Edit: Found it...
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/tire.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Is that jdm black ink?
:eek: :eek:
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 03:05 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]'Just do" isn't mocking anyone. You're just reading it wrong.
"I want a cup of coffee"
"Just go to the coffee pot and get some"
Same context here.
"What's a way to heat cycle a tire"
"Just run for 20 min on the highway and end with some skidpad time."
I see no one mocking anyone here.
[/QUOTE]
You forgot the :huh:. He didn't.
[QUOTE=KC]
If you're looking for maximum performance, don't use the tires. They won't wear out. That's the best answer anyone can give.
[/QUOTE]
Come on KC, that doesn't do me any good. :)
[QUOTE=KC]
Heatcycling can be done on the machine (for convenience) or on the road (for free). All the machine does is SIMULATE driving at speed on the highway. The choice is yours.
The only thing that happens with 'On the road' heat cycling, is you add wear. The Tire Rack solution doesn't (according to the page). I highly doubt they get the tire up to 200 degrees either... that can only be done with adding heat (which tire rack says they don't do) or by FRICTION. You can't have friction without having wear.
Is there an exact number of runs wich a tire will last? No. No one can even guarentee that becuase it comes down to a number of factors such as:
Car Weight
Car Alignment
Surface (Concrete, Asphalt and all of their varying levels of grippiness)
Surface temp
Ambient Temp
Cooling Cycles
Length of course
Alll of these factors will determine how long a tire will last in an auto-x environment. To say you WILL ghet XX number of runs more is a claim that NO ONE will be able to answer unless the tire is run in the same conditions for everyone. And that doesn't happen.
SO what you're looking for as a concrete answer to your ratio question is:
Maybe it isn't.
--kC[/QUOTE]
The only doubt i have other than the fact (or not) the Kuhmo rep says that non-machine cycling is unacceptable is that with the amount of camber (At least on my car), i'm not certain that a trip down the boulevard is going to uniformly "cycle" my tires. Plus i don't have a highway at the end of my driveway so there is a lot of stop and go driving before i get to one where i can spend 20 mins driving plus the return trip. Too much cycling? Is that OK? I don't know, i'm not a Kumho engineer.
I'm sorry i ever tried to get down to the bottom of the issue. Isn't enyone else curious? :confused:
"I want a cup of coffee"
"Just go to the coffee pot and get some"
Same context here.
"What's a way to heat cycle a tire"
"Just run for 20 min on the highway and end with some skidpad time."
I see no one mocking anyone here.
[/QUOTE]
You forgot the :huh:. He didn't.
[QUOTE=KC]
If you're looking for maximum performance, don't use the tires. They won't wear out. That's the best answer anyone can give.
[/QUOTE]
Come on KC, that doesn't do me any good. :)
[QUOTE=KC]
Heatcycling can be done on the machine (for convenience) or on the road (for free). All the machine does is SIMULATE driving at speed on the highway. The choice is yours.
The only thing that happens with 'On the road' heat cycling, is you add wear. The Tire Rack solution doesn't (according to the page). I highly doubt they get the tire up to 200 degrees either... that can only be done with adding heat (which tire rack says they don't do) or by FRICTION. You can't have friction without having wear.
Is there an exact number of runs wich a tire will last? No. No one can even guarentee that becuase it comes down to a number of factors such as:
Car Weight
Car Alignment
Surface (Concrete, Asphalt and all of their varying levels of grippiness)
Surface temp
Ambient Temp
Cooling Cycles
Length of course
Alll of these factors will determine how long a tire will last in an auto-x environment. To say you WILL ghet XX number of runs more is a claim that NO ONE will be able to answer unless the tire is run in the same conditions for everyone. And that doesn't happen.
SO what you're looking for as a concrete answer to your ratio question is:
Maybe it isn't.
--kC[/QUOTE]
The only doubt i have other than the fact (or not) the Kuhmo rep says that non-machine cycling is unacceptable is that with the amount of camber (At least on my car), i'm not certain that a trip down the boulevard is going to uniformly "cycle" my tires. Plus i don't have a highway at the end of my driveway so there is a lot of stop and go driving before i get to one where i can spend 20 mins driving plus the return trip. Too much cycling? Is that OK? I don't know, i'm not a Kumho engineer.
I'm sorry i ever tried to get down to the bottom of the issue. Isn't enyone else curious? :confused:
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 03:07 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Damn, where's the diploma of tire when I need it? :lol: Anyone?
Edit: Found it...
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/tire.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I think KC's on the take. He's in bed with Kuhmo. :p ;)
Edit: Found it...
[IMG]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/tire.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I think KC's on the take. He's in bed with Kuhmo. :p ;)
| KC | 04-05-2005 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE] attended a Kuhmo seminar ... and they definitely recommended heat cycling the 710's. But they also said you need to get them close to 200 degrees .... which is VERY hard to do by driving it. Perhaps the hottest day on concrete ... but remember we need the heat in the carcass ... not just on the outer edges.[/QUOTE]
Tire Rack won't get the tire close to 200 degrees either. So... that leaves us back at square one... if Tire Rack can't do it, but you get wear by doing it ourselves... how come Kumho suggests we do that.. I'm thinking they're thinking Race teams with the equipment to do so.
We peons can ony do something similar ... and either pay tirerack for what they do, or run on the highway with some brisk on/off ramps. :)
--kC
Tire Rack won't get the tire close to 200 degrees either. So... that leaves us back at square one... if Tire Rack can't do it, but you get wear by doing it ourselves... how come Kumho suggests we do that.. I'm thinking they're thinking Race teams with the equipment to do so.
We peons can ony do something similar ... and either pay tirerack for what they do, or run on the highway with some brisk on/off ramps. :)
--kC
| del105 | 04-05-2005 03:19 PM |
I have a big oven at home, if you want to pay me 15 dollars a tire I'll heat them to 200 degrees for you.
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 03:27 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Tire Rack won't get the tire close to 200 degrees either. So... that leaves us back at square one... if Tire Rack can't do it, but you get wear by doing it ourselves... how come Kumho suggests we do that.. I'm thinking they're thinking Race teams with the equipment to do so.
We peons can ony do something similar ... and either pay tirerack for what they do, or run on the highway with some brisk on/off ramps. :)
--kC[/QUOTE]
Right back to square one. You believe that TR won't get near the needed value necessary dictated by kumho. I contend that you can't accurately do it on the street. I suppose you can take the lesser of two evils and go the free route. It's really a tossup though.
Race teams have these machines? Who makes this equipment?
We peons can ony do something similar ... and either pay tirerack for what they do, or run on the highway with some brisk on/off ramps. :)
--kC[/QUOTE]
Right back to square one. You believe that TR won't get near the needed value necessary dictated by kumho. I contend that you can't accurately do it on the street. I suppose you can take the lesser of two evils and go the free route. It's really a tossup though.
Race teams have these machines? Who makes this equipment?
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 03:29 PM |
[QUOTE=del105]I have a big oven at home, if you want to pay me 15 dollars a tire I'll heat them to 200 degrees for you.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but you have to get it with them and monitor the progress. :lol: gfy
Sure, but you have to get it with them and monitor the progress. :lol: gfy
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 03:31 PM |
My :huh: was to the "specialized machinery" comment.
-Tom
-Tom
| makofoto | 04-05-2005 03:40 PM |
Actually the big oven theory is an interesting one ... I wonder if one could find a baker that would allow stinky big tires in their ovens ? We once had to use a local baker to roast a suckling piglet that was WAY to big for any regular oven.
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 03:46 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]My :huh: was to the "specialized machinery" comment.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
So you disagree?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
So you disagree?
| del105 | 04-05-2005 04:03 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Actually the big oven theory is an interesting one ... I wonder if one could find a baker that would allow stinky big tires in their ovens ? We once had to use a local baker to roast a suckling piglet that was WAY to big for any regular oven.[/QUOTE]
No seriously I do have a giant oven. It would easily fit a 275/40/17 tire. If anyone wants to give me $800.00 to potentially ruin a set of tires I'll try it.
No seriously I do have a giant oven. It would easily fit a 275/40/17 tire. If anyone wants to give me $800.00 to potentially ruin a set of tires I'll try it.
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 04:12 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]So you disagree?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
I or anyone else that I know, has not had a problem running a 20 minute highway run and then an offramp or two, or even better, a skidpad in a parking lot.
-Tom
Yes.
I or anyone else that I know, has not had a problem running a 20 minute highway run and then an offramp or two, or even better, a skidpad in a parking lot.
-Tom
| makofoto | 04-05-2005 04:17 PM |
What's the oven usually used for?
Will heat treating prevent this:
[IMG]http://images9.fotki.com/v170/photos/4/43793/836092/FlatSpottedTire-vi.jpg [/IMG] :eek: :furious: :lol: :lol:
Last Sat in San Diego ... practice event ... last corner was a fast sweeper taken in 3rd in a STI ... finish line and a hard 90 ! "Everyone" was either locking up their brakes and/or taking out cones after the finish ! They opened it up eventually ... we told them that it's no fun not being able to go over the finish with your foot buried instead of having to lift ... but it was a bit too late for this S04. :mad:
Will heat treating prevent this:
[IMG]http://images9.fotki.com/v170/photos/4/43793/836092/FlatSpottedTire-vi.jpg [/IMG] :eek: :furious: :lol: :lol:
Last Sat in San Diego ... practice event ... last corner was a fast sweeper taken in 3rd in a STI ... finish line and a hard 90 ! "Everyone" was either locking up their brakes and/or taking out cones after the finish ! They opened it up eventually ... we told them that it's no fun not being able to go over the finish with your foot buried instead of having to lift ... but it was a bit too late for this S04. :mad:
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Yes.
I or anyone else that I know, has not had a problem running a 20 minute highway run and then an offramp or two, or even better, a skidpad in a parking lot.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
How did you quantify it's effectiveness though? What did you mean by you didn't have any "problems" going for a 20 minute ride? What were you anticipating?
I or anyone else that I know, has not had a problem running a 20 minute highway run and then an offramp or two, or even better, a skidpad in a parking lot.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
How did you quantify it's effectiveness though? What did you mean by you didn't have any "problems" going for a 20 minute ride? What were you anticipating?
| makofoto | 04-05-2005 04:21 PM |
Dude! It's not an exact science ... he's just trying to say that it's no big deal doing your own heat cycling ... if you are willing to make the effort ... which includes taking the weight off of the tires for at least 24 hours.
It would be cool if you could arrange for a scientific test ... but I doubt TR would publish the results ... :-)
It would be cool if you could arrange for a scientific test ... but I doubt TR would publish the results ... :-)
| trhoppe | 04-05-2005 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE=Cosworth]How did you quantify it's effectiveness though? What did you mean by you didn't have any "problems" going for a 20 minute ride? What were you anticipating?[/QUOTE]
The tire gripped, they weren't "off the pace", I won, and they lasted as long as we thought they would :)
[quote]What's the oven usually used for?
Will heat treating prevent this:[/quote]
Looks like the rest of the tire was done too :)
-Tom
The tire gripped, they weren't "off the pace", I won, and they lasted as long as we thought they would :)
[quote]What's the oven usually used for?
Will heat treating prevent this:[/quote]
Looks like the rest of the tire was done too :)
-Tom
| del105 | 04-05-2005 04:26 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]What's the oven usually used for?
[/QUOTE]
Cooking food, burning wax out of molds, killing small children, the usual stuff.
[/QUOTE]
Cooking food, burning wax out of molds, killing small children, the usual stuff.
| AUTOwrXER | 04-05-2005 04:28 PM |
Cosworth - read Paul Haney's book, and then you'll understand just how much variability there is in tire manufacturing. There is no one answer that's correct, and your application and budget will determine what is best for you.
For example, if you watched any of the footage from the runoffs last year, about a third of the teams went out on rubber that was "scrubbed in" via a few laps in a previous session, maybe another third on "sticker" tires with no heat cycles, and the last third on rubber that was raced previously.
For example, if you watched any of the footage from the runoffs last year, about a third of the teams went out on rubber that was "scrubbed in" via a few laps in a previous session, maybe another third on "sticker" tires with no heat cycles, and the last third on rubber that was raced previously.
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 04:28 PM |
Back to 1^2. :lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 04-05-2005 04:29 PM |
[QUOTE=del105]Cooking food, burning wax out of molds, killing small children, the usual stuff.[/QUOTE]
Save some of the tender bits for me Andrew...
Save some of the tender bits for me Andrew...
| Cosworth | 04-05-2005 04:30 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Cosworth - read Paul Haney's book, and then you'll understand just how much variability there is in tire manufacturing. There is no one answer that's correct, and your application and budget will determine what is best for you.
[/QUOTE]
I'll definitely look into it.
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]
For example, if you watched any of the footage from the runoffs last year, about a third of the teams went out on rubber that was "scrubbed in" via a few laps in a previous session, maybe another third on "sticker" tires with no heat cycles, and the last third on rubber that was raced previously.[/QUOTE]
And then???
[/QUOTE]
I'll definitely look into it.
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]
For example, if you watched any of the footage from the runoffs last year, about a third of the teams went out on rubber that was "scrubbed in" via a few laps in a previous session, maybe another third on "sticker" tires with no heat cycles, and the last third on rubber that was raced previously.[/QUOTE]
And then???
| del105 | 04-05-2005 04:45 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Save some of the tender bits for me Andrew...[/QUOTE]
I cooking the 8yo malaysian boy for the Atlanta tour Welcome party. So bring your bib, I wouldn't want you to get sauce on your shirt.
I cooking the 8yo malaysian boy for the Atlanta tour Welcome party. So bring your bib, I wouldn't want you to get sauce on your shirt.
| jmott | 04-05-2005 05:23 PM |
kumho 710s
245/35/18 on a 9 inch wide rim
2850lbs car, stiff springs, plenty of camber (-3.5) e36 bmw (pretty even weight front and rear, 240crank horsepower)
front - 31psi rear 29psi, best PAX time of the whole national tour
245/35/18 on a 9 inch wide rim
2850lbs car, stiff springs, plenty of camber (-3.5) e36 bmw (pretty even weight front and rear, 240crank horsepower)
front - 31psi rear 29psi, best PAX time of the whole national tour
| makofoto | 04-05-2005 05:39 PM |
heat treated? That's this threads NEW subject matter. :-)
| KoneKiller | 04-05-2005 05:41 PM |
[QUOTE=jmott]kumho 710s
245/35/18 on a 9 inch wide rim
2850lbs car, stiff springs, plenty of camber (-3.5) e36 bmw (pretty even weight front and rear, 240crank horsepower)
front - 31psi rear 29psi, best PAX time of the whole national tour[/QUOTE]
Hey... you forgot to say that there was a very high quality nut on the steering wheel.
245/35/18 on a 9 inch wide rim
2850lbs car, stiff springs, plenty of camber (-3.5) e36 bmw (pretty even weight front and rear, 240crank horsepower)
front - 31psi rear 29psi, best PAX time of the whole national tour[/QUOTE]
Hey... you forgot to say that there was a very high quality nut on the steering wheel.
| KoneKiller | 04-05-2005 05:45 PM |
Cosworth... whether we are talking about track tires or AX tires... heat cycling, scrubbing in or whatever process you wish to discuss is a black art, not much science. For my experience (which is about 1/100th that of KC and Tom) is that when I don't shave them to nearly nothing AND heat cycle them, they last about this long: |--------|
But they are fast.
When I shave them to 3/32 and have tire rack bake 'em, they last many runs and are fast.
YOUR MILEAGE WILL VARY!
But they are fast.
When I shave them to 3/32 and have tire rack bake 'em, they last many runs and are fast.
YOUR MILEAGE WILL VARY!
| jmott | 04-05-2005 05:47 PM |
[QUOTE=KoneKiller]Hey... you forgot to say that there was a very high quality nut on the steering wheel.[/QUOTE]
actually what might be more relevant is that there was a very high quality setup of car that will probably cause the PAX index to change a lot next year, lol
or the car to get moved into a new class
and I take no credit I mostly copied brian matteucci
actually what might be more relevant is that there was a very high quality setup of car that will probably cause the PAX index to change a lot next year, lol
or the car to get moved into a new class
and I take no credit I mostly copied brian matteucci
| jmott | 04-05-2005 05:48 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]heat treated? That's this threads NEW subject matter. :-)[/QUOTE]
yes they were heat treaded, by taking them to 1 autocross event before the national tour.
for autocrossing purposes I think heat treating it pointless. that first autox event will heat treat them.
I haven't ever tried the tire rack heat treating. But my tires seem to last as long as anyone elses.
yes they were heat treaded, by taking them to 1 autocross event before the national tour.
for autocrossing purposes I think heat treating it pointless. that first autox event will heat treat them.
I haven't ever tried the tire rack heat treating. But my tires seem to last as long as anyone elses.
| KoneKiller | 04-05-2005 06:12 PM |
[QUOTE=jmott]yes they were heat treaded, by taking them to 1 autocross event before the national tour.
for autocrossing purposes I think heat treating it pointless. that first autox event will heat treat them.
I haven't ever tried the tire rack heat treating. But my tires seem to last as long as anyone elses.[/QUOTE]
......................blasphemer!
for autocrossing purposes I think heat treating it pointless. that first autox event will heat treat them.
I haven't ever tried the tire rack heat treating. But my tires seem to last as long as anyone elses.[/QUOTE]
......................blasphemer!
| jmott | 04-05-2005 06:17 PM |
[QUOTE=KoneKiller]......................blasphemer![/QUOTE]
hey I could be wrong
I certainly haven't done any scientific comparison.
but...when I read the reccomended heat cycling procedure, it sounds a lot like an autocross event :)
hey I could be wrong
I certainly haven't done any scientific comparison.
but...when I read the reccomended heat cycling procedure, it sounds a lot like an autocross event :)
| KoneKiller | 04-05-2005 06:26 PM |
[QUOTE=jmott]hey I could be wrong
I certainly haven't done any scientific comparison.
but...when I read the reccomended heat cycling procedure, it sounds a lot like an autocross event :)[/QUOTE]
Except in the STi, they get hot and STAY hot. Unless I douse them. But I think that cools them too quickly.
<SHRUG>
I certainly haven't done any scientific comparison.
but...when I read the reccomended heat cycling procedure, it sounds a lot like an autocross event :)[/QUOTE]
Except in the STi, they get hot and STAY hot. Unless I douse them. But I think that cools them too quickly.
<SHRUG>
| Rick Hunter | 04-05-2005 06:27 PM |
Well, back to the discussion of the v710 :)
Would the 215/40/16 be a better match for 7 inch rims compared to the 225/50/16s on a wrx with the following relevant mods:
sti v7 takeoffs
adj 22mm front sway bar
adj 22mm rear sway bar
ALK
Camber plates
16g sized turbo
The 215s would be about 2 inches smaller in diameter, 4 lbs lighter and have almost the same contact patch. Please disregard the need to shift more often since our local courses are usually quite tight/slow.
The one negative aspect of a smaller diameter tire is (from what I remember reading "How to make a car handle") that the roll center goes up, thus increasing body roll... Is that something I'd have to consider?
Would the 215/40/16 be a better match for 7 inch rims compared to the 225/50/16s on a wrx with the following relevant mods:
sti v7 takeoffs
adj 22mm front sway bar
adj 22mm rear sway bar
ALK
Camber plates
16g sized turbo
The 215s would be about 2 inches smaller in diameter, 4 lbs lighter and have almost the same contact patch. Please disregard the need to shift more often since our local courses are usually quite tight/slow.
The one negative aspect of a smaller diameter tire is (from what I remember reading "How to make a car handle") that the roll center goes up, thus increasing body roll... Is that something I'd have to consider?
| ratt_finkel | 04-05-2005 06:36 PM |
[QUOTE=Rick Hunter]Well, back to the discussion of the v710 :)
Would the 215/40/16 be a better match for 7 inch rims compared to the 225/50/16s on a wrx with the following relevant mods:
[/QUOTE]
This is a discussion on pressures. Not the optimal tire size. But I will go ahead and be a nice guy. But first, you must answer this. Do you have any expierence what-so-ever on r-compound tires?
Would the 215/40/16 be a better match for 7 inch rims compared to the 225/50/16s on a wrx with the following relevant mods:
[/QUOTE]
This is a discussion on pressures. Not the optimal tire size. But I will go ahead and be a nice guy. But first, you must answer this. Do you have any expierence what-so-ever on r-compound tires?
| jmott | 04-05-2005 08:23 PM |
the 215 is great for gearing on the wrx, I would go with it.
bigger is almost always better but getting that gearing in a wrx is very nice.
contact patch, by the way, is *always* more or less the same no matter how big the tire, fyi.
[QUOTE=Rick Hunter]Well, back to the discussion of the v710 :)
Would the 215/40/16 be a better match for 7 inch rims compared to the 225/50/16s on a wrx with the following relevant mods:
sti v7 takeoffs
adj 22mm front sway bar
adj 22mm rear sway bar
ALK
Camber plates
16g sized turbo
The 215s would be about 2 inches smaller in diameter, 4 lbs lighter and have almost the same contact patch. Please disregard the need to shift more often since our local courses are usually quite tight/slow.
The one negative aspect of a smaller diameter tire is (from what I remember reading "How to make a car handle") that the roll center goes up, thus increasing body roll... Is that something I'd have to consider?[/QUOTE]
bigger is almost always better but getting that gearing in a wrx is very nice.
contact patch, by the way, is *always* more or less the same no matter how big the tire, fyi.
[QUOTE=Rick Hunter]Well, back to the discussion of the v710 :)
Would the 215/40/16 be a better match for 7 inch rims compared to the 225/50/16s on a wrx with the following relevant mods:
sti v7 takeoffs
adj 22mm front sway bar
adj 22mm rear sway bar
ALK
Camber plates
16g sized turbo
The 215s would be about 2 inches smaller in diameter, 4 lbs lighter and have almost the same contact patch. Please disregard the need to shift more often since our local courses are usually quite tight/slow.
The one negative aspect of a smaller diameter tire is (from what I remember reading "How to make a car handle") that the roll center goes up, thus increasing body roll... Is that something I'd have to consider?[/QUOTE]
| jmott | 04-05-2005 08:24 PM |
[QUOTE=KoneKiller]Except in the STi, they get hot and STAY hot. Unless I douse them. But I think that cools them too quickly.
<SHRUG>[/QUOTE]
they dun stay hot after you are all done. and driving home with the tires in the car...
<SHRUG>[/QUOTE]
they dun stay hot after you are all done. and driving home with the tires in the car...
| makofoto | 04-05-2005 09:57 PM |
Just got my S05's ... heat cycled by TR ... and there is no indication of wear ... the little rubber nubbies are bent over and stuck to the tire ... that's it. I will say ... that this tire is TRULY Sticky! The entire surface feels like it had been covered in labels ... removed, leaving stickiness behind. Apparently SS God Strelnicks did testing for Hoosier ... and besides saying that these tires have reached "parity" with the 710's .... he also said that they seem to last as long. I sure hope so ... :-(
| KoneKiller | 04-05-2005 09:58 PM |
[QUOTE=jmott]they dun stay hot after you are all done. and driving home with the tires in the car...[/QUOTE]
Hmm... good point. The kicker is that Di and I both drive the car and she's brutal on tires. So, by the time we finish 8 runs, they are quite toasted. We've had better luck with heat cycled rubber. Maybe it's all in our minds.
Hmm... good point. The kicker is that Di and I both drive the car and she's brutal on tires. So, by the time we finish 8 runs, they are quite toasted. We've had better luck with heat cycled rubber. Maybe it's all in our minds.
| Rick Hunter | 04-05-2005 10:49 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]This is a discussion on pressures. Not the optimal tire size. But I will go ahead and be a nice guy. But first, you must answer this. Do you have any expierence what-so-ever on r-compound tires?[/QUOTE]
lol :) True, it's on pressures. I figured proper tire size for the 710 didn't warrant a new thread as we were discussing the 710s... I'll make a new one the next time. :)
I've done 1 season on re-92s, 1 season on RA-1s (205/50/15), 1 season on Azenis (205/55/16) and finally 2 seasons on Ecsta 700s (225/50/16). So, yeah, I've got some experience on r-compounds.
Regarding my query about the relevance of raising the roll center, I found the book and re-read the section. Apparently I forgot that they also raised the ride height on the car in question (to bring back the car to the stock ride height with the smaller diameter tires), which caused the a-arms to angle down towards the wheel and thus raising the roll center. Since I won't be changing the ride height, I shouldn't experience that problem at all.
It seems that the 215/40/16s are the better choice.
Jmott: forgot to mention that I've also got a 6 spd, thus I probably will be shifting more often to 3rd.
Thanks for your input gents. :)
lol :) True, it's on pressures. I figured proper tire size for the 710 didn't warrant a new thread as we were discussing the 710s... I'll make a new one the next time. :)
I've done 1 season on re-92s, 1 season on RA-1s (205/50/15), 1 season on Azenis (205/55/16) and finally 2 seasons on Ecsta 700s (225/50/16). So, yeah, I've got some experience on r-compounds.
Regarding my query about the relevance of raising the roll center, I found the book and re-read the section. Apparently I forgot that they also raised the ride height on the car in question (to bring back the car to the stock ride height with the smaller diameter tires), which caused the a-arms to angle down towards the wheel and thus raising the roll center. Since I won't be changing the ride height, I shouldn't experience that problem at all.
It seems that the 215/40/16s are the better choice.
Jmott: forgot to mention that I've also got a 6 spd, thus I probably will be shifting more often to 3rd.
Thanks for your input gents. :)
| jmott | 04-05-2005 11:32 PM |
if you have the six speed then by all means get the 225
or get serious and get some 245s or 285s :)
[QUOTE=Rick Hunter]lol :) True, it's on pressures. I figured proper tire size for the 710 didn't warrant a new thread as we were discussing the 710s... I'll make a new one the next time. :)
I've done 1 season on re-92s, 1 season on RA-1s (205/50/15), 1 season on Azenis (205/55/16) and finally 2 seasons on Ecsta 700s (225/50/16). So, yeah, I've got some experience on r-compounds.
Regarding my query about the relevance of raising the roll center, I found the book and re-read the section. Apparently I forgot that they also raised the ride height on the car in question (to bring back the car to the stock ride height with the smaller diameter tires), which caused the a-arms to angle down towards the wheel and thus raising the roll center. Since I won't be changing the ride height, I shouldn't experience that problem at all.
It seems that the 215/40/16s are the better choice.
Jmott: forgot to mention that I've also got a 6 spd, thus I probably will be shifting more often to 3rd.
Thanks for your input gents. :)[/QUOTE]
or get serious and get some 245s or 285s :)
[QUOTE=Rick Hunter]lol :) True, it's on pressures. I figured proper tire size for the 710 didn't warrant a new thread as we were discussing the 710s... I'll make a new one the next time. :)
I've done 1 season on re-92s, 1 season on RA-1s (205/50/15), 1 season on Azenis (205/55/16) and finally 2 seasons on Ecsta 700s (225/50/16). So, yeah, I've got some experience on r-compounds.
Regarding my query about the relevance of raising the roll center, I found the book and re-read the section. Apparently I forgot that they also raised the ride height on the car in question (to bring back the car to the stock ride height with the smaller diameter tires), which caused the a-arms to angle down towards the wheel and thus raising the roll center. Since I won't be changing the ride height, I shouldn't experience that problem at all.
It seems that the 215/40/16s are the better choice.
Jmott: forgot to mention that I've also got a 6 spd, thus I probably will be shifting more often to 3rd.
Thanks for your input gents. :)[/QUOTE]
| Rick Hunter | 04-06-2005 12:07 AM |
[QUOTE=jmott]if you have the six speed then by all means get the 225
or get serious and get some 245s or 285s :)[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't consider the 215/40/16s if we would have more open, higher speed course setups. Unfortunately we are space limitted and some events were done almost entirely in 1st gear (wrx 5 spd). Too bad Kumho only has two 16 inch tire sizes for the v710s, I don't want to spend more on rims this year - saving for a house already is tough enough with a hobby like this. :D
or get serious and get some 245s or 285s :)[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't consider the 215/40/16s if we would have more open, higher speed course setups. Unfortunately we are space limitted and some events were done almost entirely in 1st gear (wrx 5 spd). Too bad Kumho only has two 16 inch tire sizes for the v710s, I don't want to spend more on rims this year - saving for a house already is tough enough with a hobby like this. :D
| ratt_finkel | 04-06-2005 10:04 AM |
Do the 225/50/16 fo sho. Unless you like to be a shift jockey.
| jumbo | 07-04-2005 09:43 PM |
Okay, it's been quite a while and here are my results from the 710 at 215/40/16. All experience is on pavement, no concrete.
I'm up to about 45 runs and 1 track day. Prior to the track day the wear looked pretty good. 45 runs and they sure look like they'd last another 50 more. Will they last up to 120 runs like the Victos? Don't know, but if they get up to 100 runs, that seems pretty good. The track day did a pretty good job on the fronts. I had the pressures up a bit to 45 or so to protect the outside edges. Mission accomplished, but I wore the heck out of the inside of the fronts. It used up maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the fronts. On the good side it used up the insides so now I don't have to worry about flipping them.
On the subject of flipping, I wasn't sure what to do. The outside obvioiusly wears pretty heavily, but after 45 runs, looking at the tires, the inside edges are manufactured quite a bit more rounded than the outsides. So is there actually less rubber on the insides than even the worn outsides? If I flip will I cord the inside (now outside) edges pretty quickly? If so, then I should wait to flip until 2/3 rather than 1/2. It's a moot point now that I've hammered the insides of the fronts. No flip for me.
Ok, actual pressures: I've tried going up and down on pressure and found 38-38 to work pretty well. Sometimes I go higher in the back if I want the car to rotate a bit more. But that usually has little effect so I often feel it is counterproductive to lose the rear grip just to hope I get a little rotation.
The car actually feels better at higher pressures, say 45-45. The car is more responsive, turns in better, feels great, but it's consistently slower. At 38-38 the car feels sloppy and sluggish, but scores better.
Compared to the Victos the 710s aren't as forgiving when you overdrive them. Or maybe they are just as forgiving, but they complain a lot more clearly when you ask them for more than they have. When I lose traction in the front I lose it NOW and it takes more than a gentle relaxation of the wheel to get it back, I have to really unwind. I have found that I can't throw the car into a turn, I have to actually brake and steer. No suprise there. But it seems the 710's reward cleaner driving.
The other impression is that the car is more stable on the 710's. There is less wandering around. Also I have not had any trouble with the lower gearing due to the shorter height. I've only run out of 2nd a couple of times. And never so much that it would have been worthwhile to shift to 3rd. Yes, even on a Danny Popp course I did not run out of 2nd. I suffer more from slow corners here and I have happy to have the lower gearing.
Heatwise, we haven't had good luck on pavement when running two drivers. It's subjective, but we really feel the tires get greasy. (yeah, insert request I buy a pyrometer here). Watering the tires down does seem to help.
So how have I done on the tires? I think better than the Victos. A few weeks ago I was just .4 behind Jeff Robinson (ITR) on brand new hoosiers at OVR ([url]www.ovr-scca.org[/url]). The course was semi power hungry and it was more rythmic and transitional, which I like a lot better than a mini-roadcourse where you have seperate turns broken up by straights. So I'd say it was my best possible course. But I'm happy to be close.
On the downside the week before my codriver and I were hammered by Jack Burns (BMW) and were on pace with a stock WRX on street tires ([url]www.cincyscca.org[/url]). Talk about embarassing. This was a rather large Danny Popp designed course. For me it was less transitional, more roadcoursey, so not the kind of course I tend to do well on. but still, freaking street tires? I'm not happy with that.
Overall I feel like I am a good .5 closer to my competition than on the Victos. Now how much of that is the 710's and how much of it is me getting better? I don't know, but maybe I'll find out if I go back to Victos.
To answer the original question: I'm pretty happy with 38-38.
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url]
I'm up to about 45 runs and 1 track day. Prior to the track day the wear looked pretty good. 45 runs and they sure look like they'd last another 50 more. Will they last up to 120 runs like the Victos? Don't know, but if they get up to 100 runs, that seems pretty good. The track day did a pretty good job on the fronts. I had the pressures up a bit to 45 or so to protect the outside edges. Mission accomplished, but I wore the heck out of the inside of the fronts. It used up maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the fronts. On the good side it used up the insides so now I don't have to worry about flipping them.
On the subject of flipping, I wasn't sure what to do. The outside obvioiusly wears pretty heavily, but after 45 runs, looking at the tires, the inside edges are manufactured quite a bit more rounded than the outsides. So is there actually less rubber on the insides than even the worn outsides? If I flip will I cord the inside (now outside) edges pretty quickly? If so, then I should wait to flip until 2/3 rather than 1/2. It's a moot point now that I've hammered the insides of the fronts. No flip for me.
Ok, actual pressures: I've tried going up and down on pressure and found 38-38 to work pretty well. Sometimes I go higher in the back if I want the car to rotate a bit more. But that usually has little effect so I often feel it is counterproductive to lose the rear grip just to hope I get a little rotation.
The car actually feels better at higher pressures, say 45-45. The car is more responsive, turns in better, feels great, but it's consistently slower. At 38-38 the car feels sloppy and sluggish, but scores better.
Compared to the Victos the 710s aren't as forgiving when you overdrive them. Or maybe they are just as forgiving, but they complain a lot more clearly when you ask them for more than they have. When I lose traction in the front I lose it NOW and it takes more than a gentle relaxation of the wheel to get it back, I have to really unwind. I have found that I can't throw the car into a turn, I have to actually brake and steer. No suprise there. But it seems the 710's reward cleaner driving.
The other impression is that the car is more stable on the 710's. There is less wandering around. Also I have not had any trouble with the lower gearing due to the shorter height. I've only run out of 2nd a couple of times. And never so much that it would have been worthwhile to shift to 3rd. Yes, even on a Danny Popp course I did not run out of 2nd. I suffer more from slow corners here and I have happy to have the lower gearing.
Heatwise, we haven't had good luck on pavement when running two drivers. It's subjective, but we really feel the tires get greasy. (yeah, insert request I buy a pyrometer here). Watering the tires down does seem to help.
So how have I done on the tires? I think better than the Victos. A few weeks ago I was just .4 behind Jeff Robinson (ITR) on brand new hoosiers at OVR ([url]www.ovr-scca.org[/url]). The course was semi power hungry and it was more rythmic and transitional, which I like a lot better than a mini-roadcourse where you have seperate turns broken up by straights. So I'd say it was my best possible course. But I'm happy to be close.
On the downside the week before my codriver and I were hammered by Jack Burns (BMW) and were on pace with a stock WRX on street tires ([url]www.cincyscca.org[/url]). Talk about embarassing. This was a rather large Danny Popp designed course. For me it was less transitional, more roadcoursey, so not the kind of course I tend to do well on. but still, freaking street tires? I'm not happy with that.
Overall I feel like I am a good .5 closer to my competition than on the Victos. Now how much of that is the 710's and how much of it is me getting better? I don't know, but maybe I'll find out if I go back to Victos.
To answer the original question: I'm pretty happy with 38-38.
jim
[url]www.worscca.org[/url]
| makofoto | 07-05-2005 01:38 AM |
I'm using around 47/44 ... same as my S-05 and Azenis. I started at around 36/32 ... ... and moved up from there. I just found the lower pressures sloppy. And one of our top drivers uses around 47/44 with his Evo7 ... the only other AWD on 710's locally.
I raced a Z-06 last weekend, using 29/25 ... and the 710's felt great on those low pressures. I just always seem to gravitate to high pressures on my tires, on my '03 SM Wagon.
Interesting that Hoosier says to resist using lower pressures with their tires, even though the tires will feel better at the low pressures. They say the tires will be faster with high pressures even though control will be a bit more difficult. Funny that the 710's seem to be the opposite for most people ...
What I don't like is that the only 710 that I can easily use is their 245/45/17. I much prefer the 245/40/17 Hoosier size. I've been told that their will be no other 710 sizes for the rest of the year ... at least. :-(
[img]http://images10.fotki.com/v195/photos/4/43793/2356228/HenryConeCrusher-vi.jpg[/img]
I raced a Z-06 last weekend, using 29/25 ... and the 710's felt great on those low pressures. I just always seem to gravitate to high pressures on my tires, on my '03 SM Wagon.
Interesting that Hoosier says to resist using lower pressures with their tires, even though the tires will feel better at the low pressures. They say the tires will be faster with high pressures even though control will be a bit more difficult. Funny that the 710's seem to be the opposite for most people ...
What I don't like is that the only 710 that I can easily use is their 245/45/17. I much prefer the 245/40/17 Hoosier size. I've been told that their will be no other 710 sizes for the rest of the year ... at least. :-(
[img]http://images10.fotki.com/v195/photos/4/43793/2356228/HenryConeCrusher-vi.jpg[/img]
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