| Erudition | 11-30-2003 06:25 PM |
Racing Harnesses
�
�
Hi, I would like to put racing harnesses into my car (02 wrx), but I do not want to put in bars in the back seat, or make the car unsafe/unfit for travel w/ 4 passangers.
Are their any harnesses/setups where I can be safely held in while racing, yet do not lose the functionality of the car?
Thanks
Are their any harnesses/setups where I can be safely held in while racing, yet do not lose the functionality of the car?
Thanks
| STipoweredWRC | 11-30-2003 07:23 PM |
[url]http://www.soloracer.com/schroth.html[/url]
| mav1c | 11-30-2003 07:30 PM |
If you don't have a rollbar, you shouldn't have harnesses. The only time harnesses without a rollbar might be safe would be during any Auto-X, and even then there could be a chance of a rollover.
| A Flying Baboon | 11-30-2003 07:44 PM |
Ok, then this brings another question:
What is a safe roll cage? I would like one, but the cages that I have seen all seem dangerous if you were to get into an accident on the streets, while not wearing a helmet.
What kind of cage would not be a hazard on the streets for myself or passengers?
What is a safe roll cage? I would like one, but the cages that I have seen all seem dangerous if you were to get into an accident on the streets, while not wearing a helmet.
What kind of cage would not be a hazard on the streets for myself or passengers?
| mav1c | 11-30-2003 08:10 PM |
It's a catch 22. Running a rollbar on the street can be dangerous because there's the potential of banging your bare head on the rollbar. Even rollbar padding is designed to absord some of the blow from a helmet, not a head. Running harnesses on the street without a rollbar is dangerous because in a rollover, your body is strapped to the seat and can't move. When the roof collapses, your head and neck take all the force because your body can't "slouch" or bend. That's a recipe for a broken neck.
I suppose that ANY accident where you rollover is a bad one, and you'd wish you had harnesses and a rollbar, unless of course you would have been fine except for you head banging against the rollbar. :confused:
I think a rollbar and/or harnesses for a regularly street driven car just aren't practical. A track car that's just driven too and from the track would be more acceptable.
I've wrestled with this a lot since I've been going to the track.
I suppose that ANY accident where you rollover is a bad one, and you'd wish you had harnesses and a rollbar, unless of course you would have been fine except for you head banging against the rollbar. :confused:
I think a rollbar and/or harnesses for a regularly street driven car just aren't practical. A track car that's just driven too and from the track would be more acceptable.
I've wrestled with this a lot since I've been going to the track.
| DetroitWRX | 11-30-2003 09:15 PM |
I have thought about clipping a harness to the child seat hooks in the back and then creating a clip loop down by the seat belt anchors so that I could take it in and out for autoXing. I bought a harness at a swap meet I just haven�t had time to hook it up. Has anyone else thought about doing it this way?
Rob
Rob
| WRXedUSA | 11-30-2003 10:20 PM |
I do it this way. I have a Sabelt 3pt harness. It works great. you can disconnect it in about 2 minutes to put it away and get ready for day to day driving.
| Kostamojen | 12-01-2003 01:52 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXedUSA [/i]
[B]I do it this way. I have a Sabelt 3pt harness. It works great. you can disconnect it in about 2 minutes to put it away and get ready for day to day driving. [/B][/QUOTE]
I have the same thing. Easy as pie. The Schroth Harnesses are about as easy to use I believe, and are street legal.
[B]I do it this way. I have a Sabelt 3pt harness. It works great. you can disconnect it in about 2 minutes to put it away and get ready for day to day driving. [/B][/QUOTE]
I have the same thing. Easy as pie. The Schroth Harnesses are about as easy to use I believe, and are street legal.
| ellisnc | 12-01-2003 03:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DetroitWRX [/i]
[B]I have thought about clipping a harness to the child seat hooks in the back and then creating a clip loop down by the seat belt anchors so that I could take it in and out for autoXing. I bought a harness at a swap meet I just haven�t had time to hook it up. Has anyone else thought about doing it this way?
Rob [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't... those anchors were not designed to support the weight of an adult in a crash.
[B]I have thought about clipping a harness to the child seat hooks in the back and then creating a clip loop down by the seat belt anchors so that I could take it in and out for autoXing. I bought a harness at a swap meet I just haven�t had time to hook it up. Has anyone else thought about doing it this way?
Rob [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't... those anchors were not designed to support the weight of an adult in a crash.
| kennethw | 12-01-2003 06:03 AM |
I use ProDrive 4 point harnesses. The eye-bolts are screwed into where the existing seat-beat points are. Only drawback is that you have to remove the rear seats everytime you want to use the harness. But that's OK because I only use the harness on the track and there are no passengers.
| KoneKiller | 12-01-2003 06:02 PM |
Have you looked at how tiny the bolts are for the child seat hooks??? <shudder>
Accidents during autocrosses are very rare, but here in Houston a big accident (M3 vs concrete parking lot light pole mount) occurred and occupants of the car suffered serious injuries.
On my STi, I have the Schroth belts mounted to OEM locations (this is semi-convenient) with the OEM belts still in place. On the slow WRX, I have a Graco baby seat clip that I use to lock the belts during competition. This is a bit more comfortable than the inertial locking belts, but gives me the safety of the OEM belts.
While I'm typing, I'll once again encourage full face helmets.
Accidents during autocrosses are very rare, but here in Houston a big accident (M3 vs concrete parking lot light pole mount) occurred and occupants of the car suffered serious injuries.
On my STi, I have the Schroth belts mounted to OEM locations (this is semi-convenient) with the OEM belts still in place. On the slow WRX, I have a Graco baby seat clip that I use to lock the belts during competition. This is a bit more comfortable than the inertial locking belts, but gives me the safety of the OEM belts.
While I'm typing, I'll once again encourage full face helmets.
| ellisnc | 12-01-2003 06:31 PM |
One thing you may want to note about using eyebolts is that they should be installed so that the clips that are connected to them do not pull straight out parallel with the mounting hole. The idea is to use the shear strength of the bolt not the strength of the thread interface.
I use the Takata harnesses in my car for several reasons.
1) I have a bolt-in roll-bar which I will not attach harnesses to. (welding is another story) I've seen pictures of them punching through the floor of the car. While they do offer increased roll over protection, I do not want anything that is attached to my shoulders pulling down on them in the event I'm upside down. The rear section of the car where the belts clip into the eyebolts is right above the fuel tank and therefore one of the strongest areas of the body meaning it does not easily deform.
2) They're very thick and made to work at the extended lengths required to clip into the rear seat area.
3) THERE JDM YO :rolleyes:
(spelling mistake intentional)
I use the Takata harnesses in my car for several reasons.
1) I have a bolt-in roll-bar which I will not attach harnesses to. (welding is another story) I've seen pictures of them punching through the floor of the car. While they do offer increased roll over protection, I do not want anything that is attached to my shoulders pulling down on them in the event I'm upside down. The rear section of the car where the belts clip into the eyebolts is right above the fuel tank and therefore one of the strongest areas of the body meaning it does not easily deform.
2) They're very thick and made to work at the extended lengths required to clip into the rear seat area.
3) THERE JDM YO :rolleyes:
(spelling mistake intentional)
| arubus | 12-01-2003 11:45 PM |
I have the Schroth Rallye4 in my WRX for Auto-X. The argument for harnesses only with cages is kinda weird.
If you have a cage and wearing a harness you could bang your head on the bar(s) in the event of a rollover, but it protects you from getting crushed.
If you are wearing your standard belts without a rollcage in the event of a rollover I think that the fact that if you are wearing a harness and not able to move or slouch isn't an issue. In the event of a rollover you would probably hit your head and do all kinds of damage with the stock belts because they won't hold you in your seat, THEN if you landed on the roof you could slouch out of the way.
I think there is enough arguement for both schools of thought.
If you have a cage and wearing a harness you could bang your head on the bar(s) in the event of a rollover, but it protects you from getting crushed.
If you are wearing your standard belts without a rollcage in the event of a rollover I think that the fact that if you are wearing a harness and not able to move or slouch isn't an issue. In the event of a rollover you would probably hit your head and do all kinds of damage with the stock belts because they won't hold you in your seat, THEN if you landed on the roof you could slouch out of the way.
I think there is enough arguement for both schools of thought.
| Erudition | 12-02-2003 12:28 AM |
What a PITA!
So options are:
-Full rollcage/racing harness/helmet all the time
or:
-stock on street, helmet on track.
I sont like those options.
I want rollover protection, damnit! :furious:
So options are:
-Full rollcage/racing harness/helmet all the time
or:
-stock on street, helmet on track.
I sont like those options.
I want rollover protection, damnit! :furious:
| dwx | 12-02-2003 12:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by arubus [/i]
[B]I have the Schroth Rallye4 in my WRX for Auto-X. The argument for harnesses only with cages is kinda weird.
If you have a cage and wearing a harness you could bang your head on the bar(s) in the event of a rollover, but it protects you from getting crushed.
If you are wearing your standard belts without a rollcage in the event of a rollover I think that the fact that if you are wearing a harness and not able to move or slouch isn't an issue. In the event of a rollover you would probably hit your head and do all kinds of damage with the stock belts because they won't hold you in your seat, THEN if you landed on the roof you could slouch out of the way.
I think there is enough arguement for both schools of thought. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think the proven side of things is that with regular seatbelts there is enough movement that you can duck or slide willingly or unwillingly in the case of a rollover. I know when I was in a rollover crash in my street car a few years ago, I ended up bent over in the passenger seat somehow. If I would have been held in by a 4-point harness, which allows absolutely no movement, my head would have likely been crushed like the a-pillar of the car. That's the argument for not using harnesses without a cage.
I had an autopower 4-point rollbar in my car up until this weekend. Honestly once you do the initial installation of it, which involves drilling holes in the car, it takes less than an hour to take in and out of the car. It's still a pain in the ass, but the installation is less than two hours. How often are you doing track days? Is it worth spending a couple hours before and after?
[B]I have the Schroth Rallye4 in my WRX for Auto-X. The argument for harnesses only with cages is kinda weird.
If you have a cage and wearing a harness you could bang your head on the bar(s) in the event of a rollover, but it protects you from getting crushed.
If you are wearing your standard belts without a rollcage in the event of a rollover I think that the fact that if you are wearing a harness and not able to move or slouch isn't an issue. In the event of a rollover you would probably hit your head and do all kinds of damage with the stock belts because they won't hold you in your seat, THEN if you landed on the roof you could slouch out of the way.
I think there is enough arguement for both schools of thought. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think the proven side of things is that with regular seatbelts there is enough movement that you can duck or slide willingly or unwillingly in the case of a rollover. I know when I was in a rollover crash in my street car a few years ago, I ended up bent over in the passenger seat somehow. If I would have been held in by a 4-point harness, which allows absolutely no movement, my head would have likely been crushed like the a-pillar of the car. That's the argument for not using harnesses without a cage.
I had an autopower 4-point rollbar in my car up until this weekend. Honestly once you do the initial installation of it, which involves drilling holes in the car, it takes less than an hour to take in and out of the car. It's still a pain in the ass, but the installation is less than two hours. How often are you doing track days? Is it worth spending a couple hours before and after?
| Chaste Automotive | 12-02-2003 01:30 AM |
Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. Everything that has been posted in this thread has been posted on at least a hundred other threads just like it. DWX the only hing that you dissapointed me on was that you did not post the track day M3 or Mustang pic. If I had a dollar for everyone that has posted taht they were at the aforementioned track day then I would be able to retire. So DragonReborn the answer is you should go and speak with a reputable race car builder, or at least somebody that has rolled their car with harnesses on, or better yet a person that has rolled a car with a cage and harnesses. Se what their experiences were, and then make your decision. Not really out to flame anyone but I am sorry if you are going to join a safety debate come in with first-hand experience not just regurgitated internet hearsay.
| ellisnc | 12-02-2003 07:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. Everything that has been posted in this thread has been posted on at least a hundred other threads just like it. DWX the only hing that you dissapointed me on was that you did not post the track day M3 or Mustang pic. If I had a dollar for everyone that has posted taht they were at the aforementioned track day then I would be able to retire. So DragonReborn the answer is you should go and speak with a reputable race car builder, or at least somebody that has rolled their car with harnesses on, or better yet a person that has rolled a car with a cage and harnesses. Se what their experiences were, and then make your decision. Not really out to flame anyone but I am sorry if you are going to join a safety debate come in with first-hand experience not just regurgitated internet hearsay. [/B][/QUOTE]
What did I say that was incorrect? I've seen the pictures of the M3 with the flattened top and the Mustang who's only remaining roof structure was the part directly above the roll bar at Corn. Carv. which is why I won't run again on a track without at least a padded roll bar in the car.
There was a whole lot of misinformation in this thread you're right... but you'd do better to dispell the incorrect information than just saying no one knows what they're talking about. I backed up what I said with my reasoning, if you disagree then explain why I'm wrong... :)
[B]Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. Everything that has been posted in this thread has been posted on at least a hundred other threads just like it. DWX the only hing that you dissapointed me on was that you did not post the track day M3 or Mustang pic. If I had a dollar for everyone that has posted taht they were at the aforementioned track day then I would be able to retire. So DragonReborn the answer is you should go and speak with a reputable race car builder, or at least somebody that has rolled their car with harnesses on, or better yet a person that has rolled a car with a cage and harnesses. Se what their experiences were, and then make your decision. Not really out to flame anyone but I am sorry if you are going to join a safety debate come in with first-hand experience not just regurgitated internet hearsay. [/B][/QUOTE]
What did I say that was incorrect? I've seen the pictures of the M3 with the flattened top and the Mustang who's only remaining roof structure was the part directly above the roll bar at Corn. Carv. which is why I won't run again on a track without at least a padded roll bar in the car.
There was a whole lot of misinformation in this thread you're right... but you'd do better to dispell the incorrect information than just saying no one knows what they're talking about. I backed up what I said with my reasoning, if you disagree then explain why I'm wrong... :)
| elgorey | 12-02-2003 08:52 AM |
Re: Racing Harnesses
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DragonReborn [/i]
[B]Hi, I would like to put racing harnesses into my car (02 wrx), but I do not want to put in bars in the back seat, or make the car unsafe/unfit for travel w/ 4 passangers.
Are their any harnesses/setups where I can be safely held in while racing, yet do not lose the functionality of the car?
Thanks [/B][/QUOTE]
No.
Harnesses without rollover protection is unsafe and not advised.
Rollbars are perfectly safe on the street. The main hoop is behind the driver and not an impact liability.
[B]Hi, I would like to put racing harnesses into my car (02 wrx), but I do not want to put in bars in the back seat, or make the car unsafe/unfit for travel w/ 4 passangers.
Are their any harnesses/setups where I can be safely held in while racing, yet do not lose the functionality of the car?
Thanks [/B][/QUOTE]
No.
Harnesses without rollover protection is unsafe and not advised.
Rollbars are perfectly safe on the street. The main hoop is behind the driver and not an impact liability.
| StuBeck | 12-02-2003 11:07 AM |
Idk, I wouldn't want a roll cage in my daily driver. There is a reason drivers still wear helmets when they've got a roll cage, and one of them is still the ability to hit the steering wheel with your head.
| turboICE | 12-02-2003 06:42 PM |
Not to imply that this is at all a substitute for a main loop...
However, isn't the WRX and STi equipped with purpose built roll support? There is a structural loop that most cars do not have that runs through the b-pillars and accross the floor and roof. At a minimum I would say that a collapsed roof would be much less likely in our cars than others.
However, isn't the WRX and STi equipped with purpose built roll support? There is a structural loop that most cars do not have that runs through the b-pillars and accross the floor and roof. At a minimum I would say that a collapsed roof would be much less likely in our cars than others.
| DetroitWRX | 12-02-2003 08:04 PM |
OK we lost the point of the post.
How can you mount a harness in car and still have it be usable for a dally driver for autoxing reasons. OK fine it's a roll over risk what ever, I will roll the dice on me rolling the Rex at an autoX life in my hands fine. I just don't want to slide around as much. Tell me ideas on how to do it other than the Schroth harnesses I don't have that kind of money. I have a harness that mounts like any other harness how can I mount it to my car and have it easily removed after the autox.
Rob
How can you mount a harness in car and still have it be usable for a dally driver for autoxing reasons. OK fine it's a roll over risk what ever, I will roll the dice on me rolling the Rex at an autoX life in my hands fine. I just don't want to slide around as much. Tell me ideas on how to do it other than the Schroth harnesses I don't have that kind of money. I have a harness that mounts like any other harness how can I mount it to my car and have it easily removed after the autox.
Rob
| arubus | 12-02-2003 08:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DetroitWRX [/i]
[B]OK we lost the point of the post.
How can you mount a harness in car and still have it be usable for a dally driver for autoxing reasons. OK fine it's a roll over risk what ever, I will roll the dice on me rolling the Rex at an autoX life in my hands fine. I just don't want to slide around as much. Tell me ideas on how to do it other than the Schroth harnesses I don't have that kind of money. I have a harness that mounts like any other harness how can I mount it to my car and have it easily removed after the autox.
Rob [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you can. SCCA rules say that the harness has to be DOT approved, and that means it has to mount to the stock seatbelt anchor points. When I'm done auto-xing I just unclip the Schroth from the rear connect point and just tuck it under the seat.
Another option other than a harness and it free!
(1) slide your seat back.
(2) give a full twist to your stock seat belt and buckle it in.
(3) slide your seat forward to your normal driving position.
(4) you're locked and loaded.
I did this until I got my harness and it worked pretty well, definitely not as well as the harness though.
Good luck.
[B]OK we lost the point of the post.
How can you mount a harness in car and still have it be usable for a dally driver for autoxing reasons. OK fine it's a roll over risk what ever, I will roll the dice on me rolling the Rex at an autoX life in my hands fine. I just don't want to slide around as much. Tell me ideas on how to do it other than the Schroth harnesses I don't have that kind of money. I have a harness that mounts like any other harness how can I mount it to my car and have it easily removed after the autox.
Rob [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you can. SCCA rules say that the harness has to be DOT approved, and that means it has to mount to the stock seatbelt anchor points. When I'm done auto-xing I just unclip the Schroth from the rear connect point and just tuck it under the seat.
Another option other than a harness and it free!
(1) slide your seat back.
(2) give a full twist to your stock seat belt and buckle it in.
(3) slide your seat forward to your normal driving position.
(4) you're locked and loaded.
I did this until I got my harness and it worked pretty well, definitely not as well as the harness though.
Good luck.
| arubus | 12-02-2003 08:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. Everything that has been posted in this thread has been posted on at least a hundred other threads just like it....[/B][/QUOTE]
"So young, so angry...DAMN THAT RAP MUSIC!" :D
This issue has been discussed many a times. But the points made concerning rollcages and harnesses are all valid. So whether its from personal experience or not doesn't matter.
[B]Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. Everything that has been posted in this thread has been posted on at least a hundred other threads just like it....[/B][/QUOTE]
"So young, so angry...DAMN THAT RAP MUSIC!" :D
This issue has been discussed many a times. But the points made concerning rollcages and harnesses are all valid. So whether its from personal experience or not doesn't matter.
| ellisnc | 12-03-2003 12:48 AM |
Re: Re: Racing Harnesses
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]No.
Harnesses without rollover protection is unsafe and not advised.
Rollbars are perfectly safe on the street. The main hoop is behind the driver and not an impact liability. [/B][/QUOTE]
Correct... I'd pad the main roll hoop and the diagonal bar but yeah almost no chance you're going to hit it with any part of yourself. At least not in a primary impact. Maybe after your head bounces off the A-pillar or something :)
jehpca... also correct. which is part of the reason why I feel relatively safe with just a bolt in bar for what I do.
Detroit... I think the Schroth harnesses that are able to utilize the stock belts are pretty good for autocross. I know a couple guys that use them in their E36's and they come with special buckles that clip right into the stock ones and for auto-x they're pretty slick. Not sure they have the same thing for the Subaru though. I wouldn't use them at a track though honestly as they're pretty thin... I want to say they run somewhere between $100-150 for one. Not too bad. Rollovers do happen during autocrosses but are pretty rare and it's even more rare I think that you would have enough energy in the car to cause the roof to collapse at all let alone flatten itself on you. Anything is possible though <--- key point to all of this!
[B]No.
Harnesses without rollover protection is unsafe and not advised.
Rollbars are perfectly safe on the street. The main hoop is behind the driver and not an impact liability. [/B][/QUOTE]
Correct... I'd pad the main roll hoop and the diagonal bar but yeah almost no chance you're going to hit it with any part of yourself. At least not in a primary impact. Maybe after your head bounces off the A-pillar or something :)
jehpca... also correct. which is part of the reason why I feel relatively safe with just a bolt in bar for what I do.
Detroit... I think the Schroth harnesses that are able to utilize the stock belts are pretty good for autocross. I know a couple guys that use them in their E36's and they come with special buckles that clip right into the stock ones and for auto-x they're pretty slick. Not sure they have the same thing for the Subaru though. I wouldn't use them at a track though honestly as they're pretty thin... I want to say they run somewhere between $100-150 for one. Not too bad. Rollovers do happen during autocrosses but are pretty rare and it's even more rare I think that you would have enough energy in the car to cause the roof to collapse at all let alone flatten itself on you. Anything is possible though <--- key point to all of this!
| akuhner | 12-03-2003 09:05 AM |
I have a full 5pt cam lock Sabelt system in my RS, but I don't touch it on the street. I used the stock bolts for everything, but I lost the rear seat belt behind the driver's seat because I couldn't fit both on the same bolt. It works great at auto-x and rally-x...
| loreley | 12-03-2003 09:46 AM |
basically you can use a harness with auto-X without much worry.
but use it only for that purpose, unless you have a cage+helmet.
but use it only for that purpose, unless you have a cage+helmet.
| RB5 Clone | 12-03-2003 10:03 AM |
El Cheapo seat belt fix
�
�
Go to a store that sells child safety seats, and buy a couple of the metal clips that go on stock belts to hold kid seats in place.
These go just above the buckle on your stock belts, and let you cinch them TIGHT. Way cheaper than harnesses, and they maximize effectiveness of stock 3-point belts. I use these in my street RS for autox and rallyx, and they work pretty darn good.
Still, there's no substitute for a 5-point harness for racing (tho harnesses are a PITA on the street, you can't lean forward and turn up the stereo for instance). Anyway, key part of any harness setup is the crotch strap, often called a "submarine strap," which fastens to the floor under the front edge of the seat. Actually, this strap is less about keeping you from sliding under the belts in a frontal crash and more about keeping your lap belts pulled down and tight (and thus YOU snugged down in the seat) during a rollover. I learned about this the hard way...
Cheers,
Dave G
Wheel Twiddler and Cone Enemy
Club Rally RS #778
deepest darkest Maine
These go just above the buckle on your stock belts, and let you cinch them TIGHT. Way cheaper than harnesses, and they maximize effectiveness of stock 3-point belts. I use these in my street RS for autox and rallyx, and they work pretty darn good.
Still, there's no substitute for a 5-point harness for racing (tho harnesses are a PITA on the street, you can't lean forward and turn up the stereo for instance). Anyway, key part of any harness setup is the crotch strap, often called a "submarine strap," which fastens to the floor under the front edge of the seat. Actually, this strap is less about keeping you from sliding under the belts in a frontal crash and more about keeping your lap belts pulled down and tight (and thus YOU snugged down in the seat) during a rollover. I learned about this the hard way...
Cheers,
Dave G
Wheel Twiddler and Cone Enemy
Club Rally RS #778
deepest darkest Maine
| Patrick Olsen | 01-03-2004 09:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. [/B][/QUOTE]
[i]I know everything but I won't tell you why you're all wrong, I'll just say you're wrong and leave it at that.[/i] :rolleyes:
Thanks, Chaste, that was very informative.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
[B]Here is the real answer to your question, nobody in this thread knows what they are talking about period. [/B][/QUOTE]
[i]I know everything but I won't tell you why you're all wrong, I'll just say you're wrong and leave it at that.[/i] :rolleyes:
Thanks, Chaste, that was very informative.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| lo-buck | 01-03-2004 10:56 PM |
<sigh>
you can use the schroth if u want for autox (the 3 point) i find it uncomfortable and just use the stock belt if i drive someones car that is equiped with one.
you CAN run a 5 point at hpde w/o roll protection. yes, your instructor will say thats retarted (most likely), but this was discussed at a safty seminar at driving impressions in new jersey along with nasa-ne officials and they verified that you are allowed to run a 5 point w/o roll protection. the reasoning is that you will be in more control w/ the harness and if u do have an off, you are more likely to just hit something that go over.
now, would i run a harness w/o roll protection? nope. i've seen too much to do that. im all infavor of running an autopower or kirk roll bar. however, DO NOT run a cage in a daily driven car. u may think its safer, but when u whack your head on pne of the bars in the cage, ur done for. padded or not. a rollBAR will be fine on the street because its all behind the driver.
finally, harness mounting should never be to the floor directly behind the seat. in teh event of an impact, spinal compression will be on your list of injuries. and i dont care how thick the takata harness is, it should still be mounted as close as possible to the seat. belts will stretch and the longer they are, the more they will stretch. this is why in proper race cars, you cannot have harness mounted wwaayy int eh back of the car somewhere. yes, fia rally cars have it like that as do japanese race cars. but when japanese race cars come directly here, the cage and belt mounting points are usually the first issues when the cars are teched.
-spenc
-to the guy who saw a bolt in punch through teh floor, do u have pics of that? i'd like to check that out. not that i dont believe you, just interested.
you can use the schroth if u want for autox (the 3 point) i find it uncomfortable and just use the stock belt if i drive someones car that is equiped with one.
you CAN run a 5 point at hpde w/o roll protection. yes, your instructor will say thats retarted (most likely), but this was discussed at a safty seminar at driving impressions in new jersey along with nasa-ne officials and they verified that you are allowed to run a 5 point w/o roll protection. the reasoning is that you will be in more control w/ the harness and if u do have an off, you are more likely to just hit something that go over.
now, would i run a harness w/o roll protection? nope. i've seen too much to do that. im all infavor of running an autopower or kirk roll bar. however, DO NOT run a cage in a daily driven car. u may think its safer, but when u whack your head on pne of the bars in the cage, ur done for. padded or not. a rollBAR will be fine on the street because its all behind the driver.
finally, harness mounting should never be to the floor directly behind the seat. in teh event of an impact, spinal compression will be on your list of injuries. and i dont care how thick the takata harness is, it should still be mounted as close as possible to the seat. belts will stretch and the longer they are, the more they will stretch. this is why in proper race cars, you cannot have harness mounted wwaayy int eh back of the car somewhere. yes, fia rally cars have it like that as do japanese race cars. but when japanese race cars come directly here, the cage and belt mounting points are usually the first issues when the cars are teched.
-spenc
-to the guy who saw a bolt in punch through teh floor, do u have pics of that? i'd like to check that out. not that i dont believe you, just interested.
| Slatt | 01-03-2004 11:47 PM |
Anybody notice this thing? It's advertised on the inside cover of the January SportsCar. [URL=http://www.cg-lock.com/home.html]CG-Lock[/URL]
It's a clip you put on your seat belt to keep it tight. Prolly works better than just twisting the seat belt, but looks like they won't be shipping for another 6-12 weeks. $40.
It's a clip you put on your seat belt to keep it tight. Prolly works better than just twisting the seat belt, but looks like they won't be shipping for another 6-12 weeks. $40.
| lo-buck | 01-04-2004 12:20 AM |
i saw it and like there disclamer: "The CG-Lock is not a safty device and is not intended to encourage or compesate for reckless, ilegal on inappropriate driving. "
It looks like its the answer for many CS miata guys that cant run harness w/o roll protection at autocrossas per SCCA.
there is also the torso belt made by G-FORCE that alot of guys have been using (esp. BS S2000 folks)
It looks like its the answer for many CS miata guys that cant run harness w/o roll protection at autocrossas per SCCA.
there is also the torso belt made by G-FORCE that alot of guys have been using (esp. BS S2000 folks)
| ellisnc | 01-04-2004 06:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lo-buck [/i]
[B]<sigh>
finally, harness mounting should never be to the floor directly behind the seat. in teh event of an impact, spinal compression will be on your list of injuries. and i dont care how thick the takata harness is, it should still be mounted as close as possible to the seat. belts will stretch and the longer they are, the more they will stretch. this is why in proper race cars, you cannot have harness mounted wwaayy int eh back of the car somewhere. yes, fia rally cars have it like that as do japanese race cars. but when japanese race cars come directly here, the cage and belt mounting points are usually the first issues when the cars are teched.
- [/B][/QUOTE]
So you're saying it works in Japan but not here... If it's done that way on FIA rally cars would that make the mounting method FIA approved? Must be horrible then...
Here's a question for you... would you attach your shoulder harnesses to a bolt in roll bar? I won't.
[B]<sigh>
finally, harness mounting should never be to the floor directly behind the seat. in teh event of an impact, spinal compression will be on your list of injuries. and i dont care how thick the takata harness is, it should still be mounted as close as possible to the seat. belts will stretch and the longer they are, the more they will stretch. this is why in proper race cars, you cannot have harness mounted wwaayy int eh back of the car somewhere. yes, fia rally cars have it like that as do japanese race cars. but when japanese race cars come directly here, the cage and belt mounting points are usually the first issues when the cars are teched.
- [/B][/QUOTE]
So you're saying it works in Japan but not here... If it's done that way on FIA rally cars would that make the mounting method FIA approved? Must be horrible then...
Here's a question for you... would you attach your shoulder harnesses to a bolt in roll bar? I won't.
| lo-buck | 01-04-2004 09:46 PM |
check an scca or nasa rule book regarding harness mounting. they cannot be more than a certin length. and they def. cannot be mounted more than a certin ammount of degrees. moreso, i 'believe' its required to have them attached to the cage, not the car. looking at raceracs, the feet of the cage arent in that differant places than bolt in. nor are they real beefed up. they may box them in, but there isnt any strengthening in teh floor pan area.
i sure do. and u know what? the autopower has been tested by people i know and no one has had issues with it not holding up in a roll over. if the bar does punch through the floor, then i have more problems than where my harness is mounted. if i mount it to the car, that part of the car can be moved in an impact and all of a sudden i ahve slack in the belts. if i mount to the bar, im ok.
i sure do. and u know what? the autopower has been tested by people i know and no one has had issues with it not holding up in a roll over. if the bar does punch through the floor, then i have more problems than where my harness is mounted. if i mount it to the car, that part of the car can be moved in an impact and all of a sudden i ahve slack in the belts. if i mount to the bar, im ok.
| elgorey | 01-04-2004 11:14 PM |
harnesses without rollover?
mounting harnesses to the rear deck?
*shakes head*
this thread makes my head hurt.
mounting harnesses to the rear deck?
*shakes head*
this thread makes my head hurt.
| ellisnc | 01-04-2004 11:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lo-buck [/i]
[B]check an scca or nasa rule book regarding harness mounting. they cannot be more than a certin length. and they def. cannot be mounted more than a certin ammount of degrees. moreso, i 'believe' its required to have them attached to the cage, not the car. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't care what the race regulations say... I'm not racing my car. I don't have a full cage which is required by regulation as well. I wouldn't be using a bolt in anything if I were trading paint with 30 other cars.
The fact of the matter is Takata (since those are the most commonly beat up harnesses over this) is a maker of OEM saftey equipment for many companies. They are directly involved in safety research and development. If they make safety equipment and I install it in their recommended fashion and it is intended for what I'm using it for (which is to keep me in the seat) then I trust that it will function as it was designed, i.e. protect me from as much injury as possible. While there may be methods that are better than others, I trust that what they have designed is safe because they design many other restraint systems (just like TRW/Sabelt). Whether or not it's approved by NASA or the SCCA for racing I don't really care. I don't have to tech my car to those specifications.
[QUOTE]
looking at raceracs, the feet of the cage arent in that differant places than bolt in. nor are they real beefed up. they may box them in, but there isnt any strengthening in teh floor pan area. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes it is strengthened because it's welded to the frame-rails not just to the floor of the car. That is, if it's done correctly.
[QUOTE]
i sure do. and u know what? the autopower has been tested by people i know and no one has had issues with it not holding up in a roll over. if the bar does punch through the floor, then i have more problems than where my harness is mounted. if i mount it to the car, that part of the car can be moved in an impact and all of a sudden i ahve slack in the belts. if i mount to the bar, im ok. [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you not understand what I'm saying? The chance of the bolt in bar moving is a lot higher than the reinforced unibody directly above the fuel tank and rear differential. Have "people" tested that bar in a WRX during a rollover? I don't know of any. Guess what. The Impreza was crash tested many times and those are approved locations for restraint mounting points for all impacts (side, front, rear, rollover) so I'd guess they aren't moving too far unless the back half of the car is ripped off. But, the roll bar is attached to the wheel houses which would also be ripped off causing the bar to move who knows how much. The bar I trust, it's the thin floor of the car where the feet are mounted that I don't.
Now knowing that I don't trust the integrity of the floor of my car (at least where the roll bar is mounted) would you not agree that the belts had best not be attached to that bar if it moves down 6-12 inches? That would be the direction of movement if the roof caved in.
The only thing I trust the bar to do even if the feet punch through the floor is to absorb energy and prevent the roof from collapsing. Will it be 100% capable? No, but it improves the statistics in the occupant's favor which is the intent of all safety systems.
I do understand what you're saying as far as belt movement. If I had the bar welded in I would have the harnesses attached to it no questions. I'm not welding a roll bar into the rear of my sedan to do HPDE's though. Would it be better? Sure. Would a full rally cage be better? Sure. At what point do you stop? It's all a calculated risk, see above paragraph. Would 6 point harnesses for every road car improve safety if everyone wore them? Yes. Would people complain and wear them less than the 3 points they have now? Probably.
I get tired of people spouting off about this regulation and that one without even thinking about their individual situation. I'm an engineer and I think like one.
[B]check an scca or nasa rule book regarding harness mounting. they cannot be more than a certin length. and they def. cannot be mounted more than a certin ammount of degrees. moreso, i 'believe' its required to have them attached to the cage, not the car. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't care what the race regulations say... I'm not racing my car. I don't have a full cage which is required by regulation as well. I wouldn't be using a bolt in anything if I were trading paint with 30 other cars.
The fact of the matter is Takata (since those are the most commonly beat up harnesses over this) is a maker of OEM saftey equipment for many companies. They are directly involved in safety research and development. If they make safety equipment and I install it in their recommended fashion and it is intended for what I'm using it for (which is to keep me in the seat) then I trust that it will function as it was designed, i.e. protect me from as much injury as possible. While there may be methods that are better than others, I trust that what they have designed is safe because they design many other restraint systems (just like TRW/Sabelt). Whether or not it's approved by NASA or the SCCA for racing I don't really care. I don't have to tech my car to those specifications.
[QUOTE]
looking at raceracs, the feet of the cage arent in that differant places than bolt in. nor are they real beefed up. they may box them in, but there isnt any strengthening in teh floor pan area. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes it is strengthened because it's welded to the frame-rails not just to the floor of the car. That is, if it's done correctly.
[QUOTE]
i sure do. and u know what? the autopower has been tested by people i know and no one has had issues with it not holding up in a roll over. if the bar does punch through the floor, then i have more problems than where my harness is mounted. if i mount it to the car, that part of the car can be moved in an impact and all of a sudden i ahve slack in the belts. if i mount to the bar, im ok. [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you not understand what I'm saying? The chance of the bolt in bar moving is a lot higher than the reinforced unibody directly above the fuel tank and rear differential. Have "people" tested that bar in a WRX during a rollover? I don't know of any. Guess what. The Impreza was crash tested many times and those are approved locations for restraint mounting points for all impacts (side, front, rear, rollover) so I'd guess they aren't moving too far unless the back half of the car is ripped off. But, the roll bar is attached to the wheel houses which would also be ripped off causing the bar to move who knows how much. The bar I trust, it's the thin floor of the car where the feet are mounted that I don't.
Now knowing that I don't trust the integrity of the floor of my car (at least where the roll bar is mounted) would you not agree that the belts had best not be attached to that bar if it moves down 6-12 inches? That would be the direction of movement if the roof caved in.
The only thing I trust the bar to do even if the feet punch through the floor is to absorb energy and prevent the roof from collapsing. Will it be 100% capable? No, but it improves the statistics in the occupant's favor which is the intent of all safety systems.
I do understand what you're saying as far as belt movement. If I had the bar welded in I would have the harnesses attached to it no questions. I'm not welding a roll bar into the rear of my sedan to do HPDE's though. Would it be better? Sure. Would a full rally cage be better? Sure. At what point do you stop? It's all a calculated risk, see above paragraph. Would 6 point harnesses for every road car improve safety if everyone wore them? Yes. Would people complain and wear them less than the 3 points they have now? Probably.
I get tired of people spouting off about this regulation and that one without even thinking about their individual situation. I'm an engineer and I think like one.
| elgorey | 01-04-2004 11:40 PM |
Im going to ignore your lack of understanding in how a vehicle is put together for now, and concentrate on the most important aspect of why mouting harnesses to the back deck is the worst thing you can do.
Belt stretch.
belts stretch in an impact. a lot. The longer the belt, the more the stretch. Unless you want to have an unfriendly meeting with your steering column, you keep the belts as short as possible, which means mounting them directly behind the driver attached to a harness bar on the main hoop.
And one thing about your complete dismissal of SCCA rules. Those rules were put together out of decades of experience to keep people safe on a racetrack. Period.
You can hit the wall just as hard and kill yourself just as dead in an HPDE as you can in a race.
Belt stretch.
belts stretch in an impact. a lot. The longer the belt, the more the stretch. Unless you want to have an unfriendly meeting with your steering column, you keep the belts as short as possible, which means mounting them directly behind the driver attached to a harness bar on the main hoop.
And one thing about your complete dismissal of SCCA rules. Those rules were put together out of decades of experience to keep people safe on a racetrack. Period.
You can hit the wall just as hard and kill yourself just as dead in an HPDE as you can in a race.
| elgorey | 01-04-2004 11:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]The fact of the matter is Takata (since those are the most commonly beat up harnesses over this) is a maker of OEM saftey equipment for many companies. They are directly involved in safety research and development. [/quote]
Those high dollar Takata JDM bl1ng harnesses are outsourced for production to a company in North Carolina.
:lol:
how about that for OEM saftey research and development?
[quote]Do you not understand what I'm saying? The chance of the bolt in bar moving is a lot higher than the reinforced unibody directly above the fuel tank and rear differential[/quote]
reinforced unibody? :lol: that part of the car is about as reinforced as a paper towel.
The Ferrari Of Washington F360GT has a bolt in roll cage.
in fact all 360 race cars have bolt in roll cages.
damn...its a wonder they havent just fallen out of the car already!
[quote]Have "people" tested that bar in a WRX during a rollover? I don't know of any. Guess what. The bar I trust, it's the thin floor of the car where the feet are mounted that I don't.[/quote]
bolt-in cages have been tested countless times in rollover accidents. A properly installed bolt-in is safer than a poor weld-in.
Not Im not saying they are just as good as a custom weld-in, but they arent the deathtraps that you make them out to be.
and guess what- welds can fail too. Welds can be bad welds, welds plates can fail.
[quote]Now knowing that I don't trust the integrity of the floor of my car (at least where the roll bar is mounted) would you not agree that the belts had best not be attached to that bar if it moves down 6-12 inches? That would be the direction of movement if the roof caved in.[/quote]
so what about that roof caving in with you strapped in with harnesses and no rollbar?
so let me get this straight. You have harnesses, installed improperly to the rear deck, with no rollover protection, and you are talking about a bolt-in rollbar being unsafe.
absolutely unbelievable
[B]The fact of the matter is Takata (since those are the most commonly beat up harnesses over this) is a maker of OEM saftey equipment for many companies. They are directly involved in safety research and development. [/quote]
Those high dollar Takata JDM bl1ng harnesses are outsourced for production to a company in North Carolina.
:lol:
how about that for OEM saftey research and development?
[quote]Do you not understand what I'm saying? The chance of the bolt in bar moving is a lot higher than the reinforced unibody directly above the fuel tank and rear differential[/quote]
reinforced unibody? :lol: that part of the car is about as reinforced as a paper towel.
The Ferrari Of Washington F360GT has a bolt in roll cage.
in fact all 360 race cars have bolt in roll cages.
damn...its a wonder they havent just fallen out of the car already!
[quote]Have "people" tested that bar in a WRX during a rollover? I don't know of any. Guess what. The bar I trust, it's the thin floor of the car where the feet are mounted that I don't.[/quote]
bolt-in cages have been tested countless times in rollover accidents. A properly installed bolt-in is safer than a poor weld-in.
Not Im not saying they are just as good as a custom weld-in, but they arent the deathtraps that you make them out to be.
and guess what- welds can fail too. Welds can be bad welds, welds plates can fail.
[quote]Now knowing that I don't trust the integrity of the floor of my car (at least where the roll bar is mounted) would you not agree that the belts had best not be attached to that bar if it moves down 6-12 inches? That would be the direction of movement if the roof caved in.[/quote]
so what about that roof caving in with you strapped in with harnesses and no rollbar?
so let me get this straight. You have harnesses, installed improperly to the rear deck, with no rollover protection, and you are talking about a bolt-in rollbar being unsafe.
absolutely unbelievable
| lo-buck | 01-05-2004 12:09 AM |
ellisnc-theres no way harness would be a good idea for every day use. besides what elgorey said, the average retard would never tighten them. so they'd look like they were on, but infact be loose. so they can strangle themselves in an insident. plus, they couldnt reach the radio or climate controls.
elgorey-i know using harness w/o roll protection is a bad idea and i am not for it at all, but iw as told by nasa-ne officials that its ok. i have an autopower in the hatchcrap. so its not an issue. but i realy dont think its a good idea.
elgorey-i know using harness w/o roll protection is a bad idea and i am not for it at all, but iw as told by nasa-ne officials that its ok. i have an autopower in the hatchcrap. so its not an issue. but i realy dont think its a good idea.
| turboICE | 01-05-2004 12:13 AM |
lo - as I said earlier in the thread, I know that this is not a substitute for a roll bar and wouldn't express otherwise - however what are your thoughts on the additional support in the b-pillars as well as across them that have been described by some as being a quasi-roll bar. Wouldn't that negate the issue of roll over somewhat compared to say another model or earlier model? Supposedly all the WRX and STi during the years to the US have this additional ring of support. And of course I am talking track use of harnesses, not street.
| elgorey | 01-05-2004 12:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lo-buck [/i]
[B]elgorey-i know using harness w/o roll protection is a bad idea and i am not for it at all, but iw as told by nasa-ne officials that its ok. i have an autopower in the hatchcrap. so its not an issue. but i realy dont think its a good idea. [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah here at NASA-VA there is no specific rule against it either, but it is up to the instructors discretion whether they will get in the students car.
I will not get in a students car who does not have properly installed saftey equipment, and all of the other instructors who I know wont either, but there are still plenty who dont mind.
In fact a guy in a WRX who had harnesses with no bar lost it in south bend at VIR a few weeks ago. High speed corner and he hit the wall pretty good. Could have gotten very ugly.
[B]elgorey-i know using harness w/o roll protection is a bad idea and i am not for it at all, but iw as told by nasa-ne officials that its ok. i have an autopower in the hatchcrap. so its not an issue. but i realy dont think its a good idea. [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah here at NASA-VA there is no specific rule against it either, but it is up to the instructors discretion whether they will get in the students car.
I will not get in a students car who does not have properly installed saftey equipment, and all of the other instructors who I know wont either, but there are still plenty who dont mind.
In fact a guy in a WRX who had harnesses with no bar lost it in south bend at VIR a few weeks ago. High speed corner and he hit the wall pretty good. Could have gotten very ugly.
| Chaste Automotive | 01-05-2004 12:56 AM |
Pat thanks but this issue has been beat to death and I have posted the facts but nobody seems to want to accept the truth so I am a bit tired of writing the same reply but just for you here it goes. (P.S. On a side note I finally received the parts for the brake booster stuff from Prodrive when I return from my trip I will install and update your other tread in the brake forum).
Let me preface this opinion iwth my experience, first I worked 4 years for the Los Angeles county coroners office as a tech and I have seen hundreds of car accident victims. The leading causes of death were blunt force head trauma, basal skull fractures, and internal injuries caused by blunt force trauma. I have attended several conferences on race safety and I have heard lectures from Gary trammel (Champ Car doctor) and Sid Watkins (F1 doctor). Now I build and design rally cars and touring cars for customers and I rally a group N car.
Well here it is again, Harnesses without a roll cage are completely safe! Like I have posted before you're biggest worry in a roll over crash is ejection or hitting objects in the car like the steering wheel or dash and not being crushed. There are many myths that have been posted and the most common one I have pointed out is the one about the track day instructor tat told them that blah blah blah blah (you can insert the mustang or M3 picture now as well) if I had a dollar for everyone that repeats this story as their own I would be racing in the WRC privateers trophy.
Here is why those assertions are incorrect. Most importantly there are G Forces acting on the occupants of a vehicle in any crash. In a roll over you have multi-directional g forces acting on the body as the car is rolling and flipping. Frankly the duck your head theory does not hold water because very few if any people are able to hold themselves bent over with all those g forces acting on their body during a roll. Now I know that somebody will chime in that they new somebody and blah blah blah, well my response is that there are always exceptions to the rule. I would also reply that peoples perceptions during a roll over are usually slightly different then what is actually happening so take the comment that "if I hadn't ducked my head would have been crushed" with a grain of salt. Frankly the DOT and NHTSA would both probably mandate 4 point belts if they thought people would wear them. Most everyone on this board is too young to remember but there was big problem and a lot of opposition when seatbelts went from 2 to 3 points. Even with 3 point belts we have a lot of people that do not wear three point belts. In an accident even with harnesses you will still move around because the belts stretch so you are not cemented into place.
On the issue of seatbelt mounting frankly if it is good enough for the WRC and Rally Raid as well as FIA touring cars the rear mounting position is good enough for us. THese different series and the manufacturers have invested far too much money invested in the drivers to take any risks with their safety. The easiest way to lose an audience ius to have all the top stars getting killed all the time. If the FIA thinks that way is safe then I think that it is safe. Now mounting the belts behind seat is neither conclusively better or worse.
Let me preface this opinion iwth my experience, first I worked 4 years for the Los Angeles county coroners office as a tech and I have seen hundreds of car accident victims. The leading causes of death were blunt force head trauma, basal skull fractures, and internal injuries caused by blunt force trauma. I have attended several conferences on race safety and I have heard lectures from Gary trammel (Champ Car doctor) and Sid Watkins (F1 doctor). Now I build and design rally cars and touring cars for customers and I rally a group N car.
Well here it is again, Harnesses without a roll cage are completely safe! Like I have posted before you're biggest worry in a roll over crash is ejection or hitting objects in the car like the steering wheel or dash and not being crushed. There are many myths that have been posted and the most common one I have pointed out is the one about the track day instructor tat told them that blah blah blah blah (you can insert the mustang or M3 picture now as well) if I had a dollar for everyone that repeats this story as their own I would be racing in the WRC privateers trophy.
Here is why those assertions are incorrect. Most importantly there are G Forces acting on the occupants of a vehicle in any crash. In a roll over you have multi-directional g forces acting on the body as the car is rolling and flipping. Frankly the duck your head theory does not hold water because very few if any people are able to hold themselves bent over with all those g forces acting on their body during a roll. Now I know that somebody will chime in that they new somebody and blah blah blah, well my response is that there are always exceptions to the rule. I would also reply that peoples perceptions during a roll over are usually slightly different then what is actually happening so take the comment that "if I hadn't ducked my head would have been crushed" with a grain of salt. Frankly the DOT and NHTSA would both probably mandate 4 point belts if they thought people would wear them. Most everyone on this board is too young to remember but there was big problem and a lot of opposition when seatbelts went from 2 to 3 points. Even with 3 point belts we have a lot of people that do not wear three point belts. In an accident even with harnesses you will still move around because the belts stretch so you are not cemented into place.
On the issue of seatbelt mounting frankly if it is good enough for the WRC and Rally Raid as well as FIA touring cars the rear mounting position is good enough for us. THese different series and the manufacturers have invested far too much money invested in the drivers to take any risks with their safety. The easiest way to lose an audience ius to have all the top stars getting killed all the time. If the FIA thinks that way is safe then I think that it is safe. Now mounting the belts behind seat is neither conclusively better or worse.
| lo-buck | 01-05-2004 12:59 AM |
automakers never intended for cars to hold up under severe impacts and roll-overs that can happen on tracks. with hat said, i would still only use a harness on the track with a proper rollbar or cage. im sure the extra support engineered intot he b-piller area is very helpfull, but having a rollbar in there, something specifically designed to keep your roof off your shoulders, is the only way to go in an hpde+ situation.
| lo-buck | 01-05-2004 01:09 AM |
first hand experiences.
bridge hampton raceway back in teh early 90's. guy goes off in 944t and rolls it int he t1 beach. driver dies from spinal compression. car looked like the m3/mustang. i was there.
my cousin, who is on this board somewhere, rolls an integra down an imbankment. ends up under teh dash. car looked liek said mustand/m3.
how do you think someone whould live through the m3/mustang insidents with harness and no roll protection? i mean realy......
belt mounting....plain and simple. scca and nasa rule book says u cant mount your shoulder belts way back. end of story. the reason is the belts pick up an certin amoun of stretch per inch. multiply the belt length and you multiply the ammount of stretch.
bridge hampton raceway back in teh early 90's. guy goes off in 944t and rolls it int he t1 beach. driver dies from spinal compression. car looked like the m3/mustang. i was there.
my cousin, who is on this board somewhere, rolls an integra down an imbankment. ends up under teh dash. car looked liek said mustand/m3.
how do you think someone whould live through the m3/mustang insidents with harness and no roll protection? i mean realy......
belt mounting....plain and simple. scca and nasa rule book says u cant mount your shoulder belts way back. end of story. the reason is the belts pick up an certin amoun of stretch per inch. multiply the belt length and you multiply the ammount of stretch.
| Chaste Automotive | 01-05-2004 01:55 AM |
You bring up valid accidents to the discussion at hand, now how did the harnesses with a lack of roll cage affect the driver that was killed?
Now your cousin is a erfect example I know that he ended up under the dash, now he was not held in by his safety belts correct? By saying this you are inferring that he would have been killed or injured worse had he been wearing harnesses correct?
To analyze what you are posting I need a few more details.
No to your comment about the M3/Mustang, let me ask you this first. DO you think that when you wear harnesses that you cannot move at all? You posted earlier that people could not reach climate controls or radio with properly tightened harnesses but I have no trouble reaching the dash panel on my rally or street cars and both have harnesses. I understand that your arguement is that improperly installed safety equipment is worse then no safety equipment at all but I think that there are some flaws in you logic.
Now your cousin is a erfect example I know that he ended up under the dash, now he was not held in by his safety belts correct? By saying this you are inferring that he would have been killed or injured worse had he been wearing harnesses correct?
To analyze what you are posting I need a few more details.
No to your comment about the M3/Mustang, let me ask you this first. DO you think that when you wear harnesses that you cannot move at all? You posted earlier that people could not reach climate controls or radio with properly tightened harnesses but I have no trouble reaching the dash panel on my rally or street cars and both have harnesses. I understand that your arguement is that improperly installed safety equipment is worse then no safety equipment at all but I think that there are some flaws in you logic.
| Templar | 01-05-2004 04:56 AM |
This thread reminds me of a comment made several years ago on this board by a member who hated airbags. His reasoning was that he was in a head on collision at 60 mph and the only injuries he sustained in the crash were caused by his airbag. :huh: Yeah, that is a good reason to hate them. I guess it never occured to him that he would have been dead otherwise, but oh well.
If you do not have a cage and you flip a car you are in big danger (hell even with a cage, it just reduces risk substantially). It doesn't matter if you are in a harness, a regular seatbelt, or you are strapped to the seat with designer nylon webbing you made. I have seen a ton of people killed in rollovers (I used to work at the photo store that processed all of the local coroner images). It does not matter what you are wearing, your chances of injury and death are going to be about the same. Until someone can show me actual documented and tested results done in a controlled lab environment that conclusively prove that it is more dangerous to be in a rollover with a 3, 4 or five point harness, than with a regular seatbelt, I see no reason to continue the discussion. Up until then it is all hearsay and conjecture. Personally I recommend you DON'T FLIP YOUR CAR.
I do not have a cage. I have a set of Schroth autocontrol harnesses in my car. The Schroth autocontrols are the only DOT approved harness system by the way. The reason for this is they uses a g-force sensor and self locking reels, just like the factory belts. The factory seatbelts became practically unusable when I installed my fixed back race bucket seats into the car. My autocontrols are mounted into the rear deck with 2.5 inch long grade 8 bolts that come with the autocontrols. I am not entirely certain where the information came from that those holes are not designed to support the weight of an adult. First off, I can tell you that the support structure for those holes are every bit as sturdy as the support structure that holds the rear seat belt reels and shoulder belt guide into place.
That being said, in reference to the cars that have rolled on race courses without a cage. The owners were stupid. If you plan on taking your car to the track, then put a cage in it. If you take it to the track and do not put a cage in it, then there is no way you should use that to test the limits of your car. My car is an autocross car and will never see a track until I do have a cage.
If you do not have a cage and you flip a car you are in big danger (hell even with a cage, it just reduces risk substantially). It doesn't matter if you are in a harness, a regular seatbelt, or you are strapped to the seat with designer nylon webbing you made. I have seen a ton of people killed in rollovers (I used to work at the photo store that processed all of the local coroner images). It does not matter what you are wearing, your chances of injury and death are going to be about the same. Until someone can show me actual documented and tested results done in a controlled lab environment that conclusively prove that it is more dangerous to be in a rollover with a 3, 4 or five point harness, than with a regular seatbelt, I see no reason to continue the discussion. Up until then it is all hearsay and conjecture. Personally I recommend you DON'T FLIP YOUR CAR.
I do not have a cage. I have a set of Schroth autocontrol harnesses in my car. The Schroth autocontrols are the only DOT approved harness system by the way. The reason for this is they uses a g-force sensor and self locking reels, just like the factory belts. The factory seatbelts became practically unusable when I installed my fixed back race bucket seats into the car. My autocontrols are mounted into the rear deck with 2.5 inch long grade 8 bolts that come with the autocontrols. I am not entirely certain where the information came from that those holes are not designed to support the weight of an adult. First off, I can tell you that the support structure for those holes are every bit as sturdy as the support structure that holds the rear seat belt reels and shoulder belt guide into place.
That being said, in reference to the cars that have rolled on race courses without a cage. The owners were stupid. If you plan on taking your car to the track, then put a cage in it. If you take it to the track and do not put a cage in it, then there is no way you should use that to test the limits of your car. My car is an autocross car and will never see a track until I do have a cage.
| mav1c | 01-05-2004 07:07 AM |
Oh man...this thread is painful to read. So many different opinions, little fact. If I ever get a track car, it will have at least a rollbar, race seat, and harness.
[QUOTE]That being said, in reference to the cars that have rolled on race courses without a cage. The owners were stupid. If you plan on taking your car to the track, then put a cage in it. If you take it to the track and do not put a cage in it, then there is no way you should use that to test the limits of your car.[/QUOTE]
Well, the 24 times I've been to the track, I guess I was stupid. Along with 90% of the other HPDE people. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]That being said, in reference to the cars that have rolled on race courses without a cage. The owners were stupid. If you plan on taking your car to the track, then put a cage in it. If you take it to the track and do not put a cage in it, then there is no way you should use that to test the limits of your car.[/QUOTE]
Well, the 24 times I've been to the track, I guess I was stupid. Along with 90% of the other HPDE people. :rolleyes:
| ellisnc | 01-05-2004 07:10 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]Those high dollar Takata JDM bl1ng harnesses are outsourced for production to a company in North Carolina.
:lol:
how about that for OEM saftey research and development?
reinforced unibody? :lol: that part of the car is about as reinforced as a paper towel.
The Ferrari Of Washington F360GT has a bolt in roll cage.
in fact all 360 race cars have bolt in roll cages.
damn...its a wonder they havent just fallen out of the car already!
bolt-in cages have been tested countless times in rollover accidents. A properly installed bolt-in is safer than a poor weld-in.
Not Im not saying they are just as good as a custom weld-in, but they arent the deathtraps that you make them out to be.
and guess what- welds can fail too. Welds can be bad welds, welds plates can fail.
so what about that roof caving in with you strapped in with harnesses and no rollbar?
so let me get this straight. You have harnesses, installed improperly to the rear deck, with no rollover protection, and you are talking about a bolt-in rollbar being unsafe.
absolutely unbelievable [/B][/QUOTE]
NO, I HAVE A BOLT IN AUTOPOWER RACE ROLL BAR. I don't care where the harnesses are made. I work for Honda R&D and many of our restraints are made by Takata. I get the harnesses direct from them and they hand carry them from Japan for me. They may be made in NC, I don't care, that isn't the point of the discussion. I use them because I can get them relatively easy and cheaply and I trust their know-how in making safe equipment if used how it's recommended.
The harnesses are not attached to the rear deck (maybe you're assuming baby seat anchors) I don't know where you got that. They are attached with forged eye-bolts (supplied by the harness maker) to the rear lower lap belt mounting points. I've seen the rear deck thing and refused to get into a car with them before. The instructor was using them like that!!!
[B]Those high dollar Takata JDM bl1ng harnesses are outsourced for production to a company in North Carolina.
:lol:
how about that for OEM saftey research and development?
reinforced unibody? :lol: that part of the car is about as reinforced as a paper towel.
The Ferrari Of Washington F360GT has a bolt in roll cage.
in fact all 360 race cars have bolt in roll cages.
damn...its a wonder they havent just fallen out of the car already!
bolt-in cages have been tested countless times in rollover accidents. A properly installed bolt-in is safer than a poor weld-in.
Not Im not saying they are just as good as a custom weld-in, but they arent the deathtraps that you make them out to be.
and guess what- welds can fail too. Welds can be bad welds, welds plates can fail.
so what about that roof caving in with you strapped in with harnesses and no rollbar?
so let me get this straight. You have harnesses, installed improperly to the rear deck, with no rollover protection, and you are talking about a bolt-in rollbar being unsafe.
absolutely unbelievable [/B][/QUOTE]
NO, I HAVE A BOLT IN AUTOPOWER RACE ROLL BAR. I don't care where the harnesses are made. I work for Honda R&D and many of our restraints are made by Takata. I get the harnesses direct from them and they hand carry them from Japan for me. They may be made in NC, I don't care, that isn't the point of the discussion. I use them because I can get them relatively easy and cheaply and I trust their know-how in making safe equipment if used how it's recommended.
The harnesses are not attached to the rear deck (maybe you're assuming baby seat anchors) I don't know where you got that. They are attached with forged eye-bolts (supplied by the harness maker) to the rear lower lap belt mounting points. I've seen the rear deck thing and refused to get into a car with them before. The instructor was using them like that!!!
| ellisnc | 01-05-2004 07:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]Im going to ignore your lack of understanding in how a vehicle is put together for now, and concentrate on the most important aspect of why mouting harnesses to the back deck is the worst thing you can do.
Belt stretch.
belts stretch in an impact. a lot. The longer the belt, the more the stretch. Unless you want to have an unfriendly meeting with your steering column, you keep the belts as short as possible, which means mounting them directly behind the driver attached to a harness bar on the main hoop.
And one thing about your complete dismissal of SCCA rules. Those rules were put together out of decades of experience to keep people safe on a racetrack. Period.
You can hit the wall just as hard and kill yourself just as dead in an HPDE as you can in a race. [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you know that the Takata belts will stretch the same way other makers belts will? KNOW FOR A FACT?!?!?! Do you know the materials used to make them? Are they the same as every other belt? I'm not saying I know either, but I said I trust their reputation and know how so that if I use the harnesses as recommended they will work as a piece of safety equipment.
[B]Im going to ignore your lack of understanding in how a vehicle is put together for now, and concentrate on the most important aspect of why mouting harnesses to the back deck is the worst thing you can do.
Belt stretch.
belts stretch in an impact. a lot. The longer the belt, the more the stretch. Unless you want to have an unfriendly meeting with your steering column, you keep the belts as short as possible, which means mounting them directly behind the driver attached to a harness bar on the main hoop.
And one thing about your complete dismissal of SCCA rules. Those rules were put together out of decades of experience to keep people safe on a racetrack. Period.
You can hit the wall just as hard and kill yourself just as dead in an HPDE as you can in a race. [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you know that the Takata belts will stretch the same way other makers belts will? KNOW FOR A FACT?!?!?! Do you know the materials used to make them? Are they the same as every other belt? I'm not saying I know either, but I said I trust their reputation and know how so that if I use the harnesses as recommended they will work as a piece of safety equipment.
| mav1c | 01-05-2004 07:18 AM |
[QUOTE]They are attached with forged eye-bolts (supplied by the harness maker) to the rear lower lap belt mounting points.[/QUOTE]
I'm may be wrong, but I thought that shoulder straps should not be angled down behind the driver. I guess yours go through a harness guide on the rollbar? :)
I'm may be wrong, but I thought that shoulder straps should not be angled down behind the driver. I guess yours go through a harness guide on the rollbar? :)
| ellisnc | 01-05-2004 07:18 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lo-buck [/i]
[B]ellisnc-theres no way harness would be a good idea for every day use. besides what elgorey said, the average retard would never tighten them. so they'd look like they were on, but infact be loose. so they can strangle themselves in an insident. plus, they couldnt reach the radio or climate controls.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Right, I was only trying to illustrate that everything is a compromise for the circustances in relation to the bolt/weld in bar thing.
[B]ellisnc-theres no way harness would be a good idea for every day use. besides what elgorey said, the average retard would never tighten them. so they'd look like they were on, but infact be loose. so they can strangle themselves in an insident. plus, they couldnt reach the radio or climate controls.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Right, I was only trying to illustrate that everything is a compromise for the circustances in relation to the bolt/weld in bar thing.
| ellisnc | 01-05-2004 07:22 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mav1c [/i]
[B]I'm may be wrong, but I thought that shoulder straps should not be angled down behind the driver. I guess yours go through a harness guide on the rollbar? :) [/B][/QUOTE]
I've measured the angle with respect the the angle of the seat back and it is far less than what the Takata installation instruction manual says.
[B]I'm may be wrong, but I thought that shoulder straps should not be angled down behind the driver. I guess yours go through a harness guide on the rollbar? :) [/B][/QUOTE]
I've measured the angle with respect the the angle of the seat back and it is far less than what the Takata installation instruction manual says.
| ellisnc | 01-05-2004 07:32 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]
On the issue of seatbelt mounting frankly if it is good enough for the WRC and Rally Raid as well as FIA touring cars the rear mounting position is good enough for us. THese different series and the manufacturers have invested far too much money invested in the drivers to take any risks with their safety. The easiest way to lose an audience ius to have all the top stars getting killed all the time. If the FIA thinks that way is safe then I think that it is safe. Now mounting the belts behind seat is neither conclusively better or worse. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you...
The harness that I'm using is FIA approved and the instructions for mounting are based on FIA approved methods as well. So they're different/better/worse than the SCCA or NASA... what? SCCA and NASA regs. have differences in amongst themselves and I believe the NASA regs. were modified just this year (2004).
I'm surprised we haven't gotten into using a fixed back seat without a brace!!! Anyone want to open that can of worms?
[B]
On the issue of seatbelt mounting frankly if it is good enough for the WRC and Rally Raid as well as FIA touring cars the rear mounting position is good enough for us. THese different series and the manufacturers have invested far too much money invested in the drivers to take any risks with their safety. The easiest way to lose an audience ius to have all the top stars getting killed all the time. If the FIA thinks that way is safe then I think that it is safe. Now mounting the belts behind seat is neither conclusively better or worse. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thank you...
The harness that I'm using is FIA approved and the instructions for mounting are based on FIA approved methods as well. So they're different/better/worse than the SCCA or NASA... what? SCCA and NASA regs. have differences in amongst themselves and I believe the NASA regs. were modified just this year (2004).
I'm surprised we haven't gotten into using a fixed back seat without a brace!!! Anyone want to open that can of worms?
| turboICE | 01-05-2004 07:42 AM |
I agree there are flukes to everything.
Back in 1986 no one in my family was wearing seat belts regularly. My dad was on his way home from the grocery store in his ford ranger and a guy turned into his lane avoiding someone pulling out of driveway. My dad and the other guy were going around 60 each. My dad was not wear his seat belt and in the offset front end crash he of suffered quiate a few injuries but all the emergency personnel said that the position of the steering wheel at the end of the crash would have crushed him if he had not been thrown into the passenger side of the vehicle (i.e. been wearing a seat belt). It was a fluke that he may have been less injured as a result of not wearing the seat belt - after his accident everyone in our family began wearing seatbelts because we saw first hand the results of the two drivers in a head on out of the blue accident you could never react to.
As for airbags I too have been in accidents where the only "injuries" were caused by the airbags - I was glad for it because I am sure the injuries I would have otherwise sustained would have been worse than the abrasions on my fore arms.
With just a seat belt - and at 6/10's I don't feel comfortably held in place in the STi, I can't imagine at 8/10's and higher that I would be held in place sufficiently at all. For now I think on the track I would be in much better control with a harness bar and harness.
Back in 1986 no one in my family was wearing seat belts regularly. My dad was on his way home from the grocery store in his ford ranger and a guy turned into his lane avoiding someone pulling out of driveway. My dad and the other guy were going around 60 each. My dad was not wear his seat belt and in the offset front end crash he of suffered quiate a few injuries but all the emergency personnel said that the position of the steering wheel at the end of the crash would have crushed him if he had not been thrown into the passenger side of the vehicle (i.e. been wearing a seat belt). It was a fluke that he may have been less injured as a result of not wearing the seat belt - after his accident everyone in our family began wearing seatbelts because we saw first hand the results of the two drivers in a head on out of the blue accident you could never react to.
As for airbags I too have been in accidents where the only "injuries" were caused by the airbags - I was glad for it because I am sure the injuries I would have otherwise sustained would have been worse than the abrasions on my fore arms.
With just a seat belt - and at 6/10's I don't feel comfortably held in place in the STi, I can't imagine at 8/10's and higher that I would be held in place sufficiently at all. For now I think on the track I would be in much better control with a harness bar and harness.
| Chaste Automotive | 01-05-2004 09:12 AM |
Jehcpa: I know what you are saying when I was in college I was riding back from a road trip to colorado and my friend that was driving fell asleep I was sleeping in the passenger seat with no belt on at all. Guess what? I was ejected from the vehicle and only had a concussion and some broken ribs the driver broker her femur and both of the other passenger had some severe injuries. Now I am not going to stop wearing seatbelts because it worked for me once.
There are exceptions to every rule but that does not mean that the rule is fatally flawed or that those exceptions are now the rule.
There are exceptions to every rule but that does not mean that the rule is fatally flawed or that those exceptions are now the rule.
| elgorey | 01-05-2004 10:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]Do you know that the Takata belts will stretch the same way other makers belts will? KNOW FOR A FACT?!?!?! Do you know the materials used to make them? Are they the same as every other belt? I'm not saying I know either, but I said I trust their reputation and know how so that if I use the harnesses as recommended they will work as a piece of safety equipment. [/B][/QUOTE]
Belts stretch. Welcome to physics.
Takata isnt made of some mythical super-duper unobtanium belt webbing that doesnt stretch. If you think they dont, you are absolutely kidding yourself.
The more important question is, do you "KNOW FOR A FACT" that they [i]dont[/i] stretch.
[B]Do you know that the Takata belts will stretch the same way other makers belts will? KNOW FOR A FACT?!?!?! Do you know the materials used to make them? Are they the same as every other belt? I'm not saying I know either, but I said I trust their reputation and know how so that if I use the harnesses as recommended they will work as a piece of safety equipment. [/B][/QUOTE]
Belts stretch. Welcome to physics.
Takata isnt made of some mythical super-duper unobtanium belt webbing that doesnt stretch. If you think they dont, you are absolutely kidding yourself.
The more important question is, do you "KNOW FOR A FACT" that they [i]dont[/i] stretch.
| turboICE | 01-05-2004 10:51 AM |
You actually want them to stretch to some extent - materials that don't stretch tend to have low load strength and would break...
My layman's understanding is that the things designed with the most strength are flexible - they bend (so to speak) rather than break.
My layman's understanding is that the things designed with the most strength are flexible - they bend (so to speak) rather than break.
| Ryan | 01-05-2004 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by lo-buck [/i]
[B]i 'believe' its required to have them attached to the cage, not the car.[/quote]
Actually this is not the case. Its recommended, but not required.
[quote] looking at raceracs, the feet of the cage arent in that differant places than bolt in. nor are they real beefed up. they may box them in, but there isnt any strengthening in teh floor pan area. [/quote]
A good cage builder will box in or stitch a plate to the rocker panel (strong) to the floor pan (not strong) and the cage.
[quote]i sure do. and u know what? the autopower has been tested by people i know and no one has had issues with it not holding up in a roll over. [/B][/QUOTE]
I've heard from reputible sources that the bolt-in units can and have punched through the floor. I have not seen it myself however. Unfortunately thats a decision you have to make for your self. I used a bolt-in bar before, and will use one again. It falls under "acceptable risk" for me. Hell, going to the track is a huge risk.
Here's a link for proper harness mounting:
[url]http://www.teamsimpson.com/catalog/restraints/restinfo.asp[/url]
Here's some good info i've found on belt stretch:
[url]http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses[/url]
[url]http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/seatb.html#cc2[/url]
[url]http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Accessories/harnesskits.htm[/url] (This source says 20%)
[url]http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/59998/[/url] (This source says 10%)
[url]http://www.opentracking.com/5_pts_vs_6_pts.htm[/url]
My point is that belt stretch is very real and something to be taken very seriously when driving on track - to say they wont stretch "that much" is ludicrus.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Well here it is again, Harnesses without a roll cage are completely safe! [/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely unbelieveable.......
These incidents happened on track. They were not using harnesses. They walked away........ The forces seen in an on track incident are much, much higher than you will usually see on the street - the speeds are higher, and the things that you hit are much closer to the edge of the track. Harnesses w/o rollover protection might be an unacceptable risk for you, but not for me. I required a student at VIR last year to use his stock belt instead of a 4-point belt, and no rollbar either. I'd never use a 4 point belt anyways.
[IMG]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wNzA2MTM2czQxM2RmZDMxeTU0MQ%3D%3D.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjE2MjM0NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTk5NDY3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/IMG]
I've seen cars involved in violent rollovers on track, with good custom cages (Piper) and the drivers have walked away. Example: Triple roll outisde of Turn 10 at summit point - left the track at probably 90+ mph. No deformation in the cage, driver walked way, no injuries at all. The SCCA regs work, and work well.
[B]i 'believe' its required to have them attached to the cage, not the car.[/quote]
Actually this is not the case. Its recommended, but not required.
[quote] looking at raceracs, the feet of the cage arent in that differant places than bolt in. nor are they real beefed up. they may box them in, but there isnt any strengthening in teh floor pan area. [/quote]
A good cage builder will box in or stitch a plate to the rocker panel (strong) to the floor pan (not strong) and the cage.
[quote]i sure do. and u know what? the autopower has been tested by people i know and no one has had issues with it not holding up in a roll over. [/B][/QUOTE]
I've heard from reputible sources that the bolt-in units can and have punched through the floor. I have not seen it myself however. Unfortunately thats a decision you have to make for your self. I used a bolt-in bar before, and will use one again. It falls under "acceptable risk" for me. Hell, going to the track is a huge risk.
Here's a link for proper harness mounting:
[url]http://www.teamsimpson.com/catalog/restraints/restinfo.asp[/url]
Here's some good info i've found on belt stretch:
[url]http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses[/url]
[url]http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/seatb.html#cc2[/url]
[url]http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Accessories/harnesskits.htm[/url] (This source says 20%)
[url]http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/59998/[/url] (This source says 10%)
[url]http://www.opentracking.com/5_pts_vs_6_pts.htm[/url]
My point is that belt stretch is very real and something to be taken very seriously when driving on track - to say they wont stretch "that much" is ludicrus.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chaste Automotive [/i]
[B]Well here it is again, Harnesses without a roll cage are completely safe! [/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely unbelieveable.......
These incidents happened on track. They were not using harnesses. They walked away........ The forces seen in an on track incident are much, much higher than you will usually see on the street - the speeds are higher, and the things that you hit are much closer to the edge of the track. Harnesses w/o rollover protection might be an unacceptable risk for you, but not for me. I required a student at VIR last year to use his stock belt instead of a 4-point belt, and no rollbar either. I'd never use a 4 point belt anyways.
[IMG]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wNzA2MTM2czQxM2RmZDMxeTU0MQ%3D%3D.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjE2MjM0NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTk5NDY3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/IMG]
I've seen cars involved in violent rollovers on track, with good custom cages (Piper) and the drivers have walked away. Example: Triple roll outisde of Turn 10 at summit point - left the track at probably 90+ mph. No deformation in the cage, driver walked way, no injuries at all. The SCCA regs work, and work well.
| elgorey | 01-05-2004 10:59 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jehcpa [/i]
[B]You actually want them to stretch to some extent - materials that don't stretch tend to have low load strength and would break...
My layman's understanding is that the things designed with the most strength are flexible - they bend (so to speak) rather than break. [/B][/QUOTE]
Belts stretch up to 20% of their total length. When a harness is mounted to the rear of the car, this is more than enough stretch to allow your body to impact the steering wheel, dash, and windsheild.
mmm.....steering column through the chest. feels good!
[B]You actually want them to stretch to some extent - materials that don't stretch tend to have low load strength and would break...
My layman's understanding is that the things designed with the most strength are flexible - they bend (so to speak) rather than break. [/B][/QUOTE]
Belts stretch up to 20% of their total length. When a harness is mounted to the rear of the car, this is more than enough stretch to allow your body to impact the steering wheel, dash, and windsheild.
mmm.....steering column through the chest. feels good!
| turboICE | 01-05-2004 11:07 AM |
I wasn't arguing about location - I am fully in agreement with short mounting distances - I was pointing out that if the belts didn't stretch they wouldn't work for those that think they don't stretch. I think my post was not interpretted as I intended.
As for the pics - they tell you why roll bars a good idea. I don't think the drivers would have been any better off wearing a seat belt instead of a harness in those accidents.
As for the pics - they tell you why roll bars a good idea. I don't think the drivers would have been any better off wearing a seat belt instead of a harness in those accidents.
| Ryan | 01-05-2004 11:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jehcpa [/i]
[B]As for the pics - they tell you why roll bars a good idea. I don't think the drivers would have been any better off wearing a seat belt instead of a harness in those accidents. [/B][/QUOTE]
They were wearing OEM seat belts. They walked away.
[B]As for the pics - they tell you why roll bars a good idea. I don't think the drivers would have been any better off wearing a seat belt instead of a harness in those accidents. [/B][/QUOTE]
They were wearing OEM seat belts. They walked away.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét