| Fred | 11-23-2005 08:50 AM |
[IMG]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album149/img_0031[/IMG]
:lol:
Nice photos. :)
[QUOTE]given equally skilled drivers the driver in the STi w/smaller brakes, 15" wheels, rally tires, and whatever 3rd limited mod they choose will crush the equally skilled driver in a RS or a 02-05 WRX.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the course. If there's not much room for full-throttle acceleration, the RS will take them [B]all[/B] down. It might not be a "crushing" but a win is a win. :)
:lol:
Nice photos. :)
[QUOTE]given equally skilled drivers the driver in the STi w/smaller brakes, 15" wheels, rally tires, and whatever 3rd limited mod they choose will crush the equally skilled driver in a RS or a 02-05 WRX.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the course. If there's not much room for full-throttle acceleration, the RS will take them [B]all[/B] down. It might not be a "crushing" but a win is a win. :)
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 11-23-2005 10:17 AM |
[QUOTE=Fred
Depends on the course. If there's not much room for full-throttle acceleration, the RS will take them [B]all[/B] down. It might not be a "crushing" but a win is a win. :)[/QUOTE]
You're smoking something... The STi has more torque, better diffs and a low 2nd gear. Even the smallest of acceleration zones the STi will make up time on the RS.
Depends on the course. If there's not much room for full-throttle acceleration, the RS will take them [B]all[/B] down. It might not be a "crushing" but a win is a win. :)[/QUOTE]
You're smoking something... The STi has more torque, better diffs and a low 2nd gear. Even the smallest of acceleration zones the STi will make up time on the RS.
| 10th Warrior | 11-23-2005 10:41 AM |
[QUOTE=Prometheus_6k_rpm]You're smoking something... The STi has more torque, better diffs and a low 2nd gear. Even the smallest of acceleration zones the STi will make up time on the RS.[/QUOTE]
not to mention coming out of a corner. the RS and WRX can compete well with one another, though it will obviously be highly course dependent. the STi dominates everything, especially given that it can either gain more power or loose alot of weight in Stock.
i also agree that the brake allowance is out of place.
not to mention coming out of a corner. the RS and WRX can compete well with one another, though it will obviously be highly course dependent. the STi dominates everything, especially given that it can either gain more power or loose alot of weight in Stock.
i also agree that the brake allowance is out of place.
| cowapult | 11-23-2005 11:04 AM |
Fred owns both an RS and an STI. He also owns property that has a rallycross course that he can use to flog these cars all day long. He's raced both cars in multiple rallycrosses and multiple venues. And, he's one of the best drivers I've ever raced against, so he knows how to get the most out of them.
So basically, I think he knows what he is talking about when he says he got a lot better times in the RS on some courses than in the STI.
So basically, I think he knows what he is talking about when he says he got a lot better times in the RS on some courses than in the STI.
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 11-23-2005 11:19 AM |
[QUOTE=cowapult]Fred owns both an RS and an STI. He also owns property ...So basically, I think he knows what he is talking about when he says he got a lot better times in the RS on some courses than in the STI.[/QUOTE]
Well... I think 10th Warrior (Muggy) and I know a thing or two about the RS and STi. (My car was 1st & 2nd at nationals with FTD both days)
Sure a course will determine if you can lay down power. If everyone goes 20 mph and never has a change to accelerate, then yes it might be an even match. But give the STi the smallest of acceleration zones and it will gain time on the RS & WRX.
Well... I think 10th Warrior (Muggy) and I know a thing or two about the RS and STi. (My car was 1st & 2nd at nationals with FTD both days)
Sure a course will determine if you can lay down power. If everyone goes 20 mph and never has a change to accelerate, then yes it might be an even match. But give the STi the smallest of acceleration zones and it will gain time on the RS & WRX.
| Fred | 11-23-2005 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE]Fred owns both an RS and an STI. He also owns property that has a rallycross course that he can use to flog these cars all day long. He's raced both cars in multiple rallycrosses and multiple venues. And, he's one of the best drivers I've ever raced against, so he knows how to get the most out of them.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, what he said. ;) :lol:
[QUOTE]Well... I think 10th Warrior (Muggy) and I know a thing or two about the RS and STi. (My car was 1st & 2nd at nationals with FTD both days)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but I wasn't there. :devil: (just kidding!!! :) - don't anybody get their panties in a wad)
Also, I heard the courses at the national thing were pretty fast.
Yeah, what he said. ;) :lol:
[QUOTE]Well... I think 10th Warrior (Muggy) and I know a thing or two about the RS and STi. (My car was 1st & 2nd at nationals with FTD both days)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but I wasn't there. :devil: (just kidding!!! :) - don't anybody get their panties in a wad)
Also, I heard the courses at the national thing were pretty fast.
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 11-23-2005 11:51 AM |
Yes they were a bit fast, but nothing like autox speeds. I hit 3rd gear on a regular basis at local autox events. Sunday's course was much slower, and about the speeds we see at local rallyx events.
All I'm saying is at real low speeds the RS should keep up with the STi, but once there are spots where I can get a couple of seconds of boost, the STi will put some time on the RS.
All I'm saying is at real low speeds the RS should keep up with the STi, but once there are spots where I can get a couple of seconds of boost, the STi will put some time on the RS.
| mrmodular | 11-23-2005 11:57 AM |
[QUOTE=Prometheus_6k_rpm]Well... I think 10th Warrior (Muggy) and I know a thing or two about the RS and STi. (My car was 1st & 2nd at nationals with FTD both days)
Sure a course will determine if you can lay down power. If everyone goes 20 mph and never has a change to accelerate, then yes it might be an even match. But give the STi the smallest of acceleration zones and it will gain time on the RS & WRX.[/QUOTE]
I guess I'm not worried about a swarm of STis or EVOs taking over the sport anytime soon. These cars still cost decent money to own and modify and don't represent the norm. What's the attendance ratio of these supercars to regular WRXs, RSs, and the like?
BTW- I enjoyed the video from Hastings
Sure a course will determine if you can lay down power. If everyone goes 20 mph and never has a change to accelerate, then yes it might be an even match. But give the STi the smallest of acceleration zones and it will gain time on the RS & WRX.[/QUOTE]
I guess I'm not worried about a swarm of STis or EVOs taking over the sport anytime soon. These cars still cost decent money to own and modify and don't represent the norm. What's the attendance ratio of these supercars to regular WRXs, RSs, and the like?
BTW- I enjoyed the video from Hastings
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 11-23-2005 12:07 PM |
At most of our events, we have 2-3 STis, and the rest is about 1/3 to 1/2 WRXs and 1/3 to 1/2 other cars like Civics, RX7s, etc...
[I]I guess I'm not worried about a swarm of STis or EVOs taking over the sport anytime soon. These cars still cost decent money to own and modify and don't represent the norm. [/I]
Yes they aren't the norm, but if the national event really takes off, kiss you chance of being a "mod" or "stock" class winner goodbye. If a good driver is serious about winning, the STi or EVO will be the car to have. It's just like solo. If a person wants to win a class, they don't take their car and start upgrading it. They buy they best car that fits the class and then start upgrading. Just look at the Mini in GS at nats this year.
[I]I guess I'm not worried about a swarm of STis or EVOs taking over the sport anytime soon. These cars still cost decent money to own and modify and don't represent the norm. [/I]
Yes they aren't the norm, but if the national event really takes off, kiss you chance of being a "mod" or "stock" class winner goodbye. If a good driver is serious about winning, the STi or EVO will be the car to have. It's just like solo. If a person wants to win a class, they don't take their car and start upgrading it. They buy they best car that fits the class and then start upgrading. Just look at the Mini in GS at nats this year.
| Fred | 11-23-2005 12:49 PM |
an extrey 400 lbs is a lot to accelerate/decelerate/take through a corner with not that much grip. that's all I'm saying. on our afternoon course on Saturday, I was finishing in 3rd gear running around 70mph in the STi, but the RS didn't even hit rev limit in 2nd (55mph). Guess which one was 3 seconds faster on the 70 sec course? (both on similarly-treaded street tires) :lol:
I wish there was somebody local with an STi on rally tires that could come play with us Dec. 3rd. :furious: I'll supply the RS on rally tires, and we can even switch cars for fun runs, if anybody can make it! :)
I wish there was somebody local with an STi on rally tires that could come play with us Dec. 3rd. :furious: I'll supply the RS on rally tires, and we can even switch cars for fun runs, if anybody can make it! :)
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 11-23-2005 12:58 PM |
Well hell, an STi on street tires can put down any power. I'm talking about the so called "stock" class with STis on 15" rally wheels and tires and a bit more power against an RS with rally tires.
| dowroa | 11-23-2005 01:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Fred]an extrey 400 lbs is a lot to accelerate/decelerate/take through a corner with not that much grip. that's all I'm saying. on our afternoon course on Saturday, I was finishing in 3rd gear running around 70mph in the STi, but the RS didn't even hit rev limit in 2nd (55mph). Guess which one was 3 seconds faster on the 70 sec course? (both on similarly-treaded street tires) :lol:
I wish there was somebody local with an STi on rally tires that could come play with us Dec. 3rd. :furious: I'll supply the RS on rally tires, and we can even switch cars for fun runs, if anybody can make it! :)[/QUOTE]
Hmmm.... sounds interesting......
:D
- dow
I wish there was somebody local with an STi on rally tires that could come play with us Dec. 3rd. :furious: I'll supply the RS on rally tires, and we can even switch cars for fun runs, if anybody can make it! :)[/QUOTE]
Hmmm.... sounds interesting......
:D
- dow
| Fred | 11-23-2005 01:15 PM |
[QUOTE]Well hell, an STi on street tires can (sic) put down any power. I'm talking about the so called "stock" class with STis on 15" rally wheels and tires and a bit more power against an RS with rally tires.[/QUOTE]
So an STi with rally tires won't still be spinning its wheels, even with more power? :) I still think it's going to be close, and determined by course design - I don't think either STi or RS will be seconds ahead of the other on a well-mixed course.
and dowroa - bring it, b*tch. :devil: I've had my STi 2 weeks & rallycrossed it twice - how many times have you even played around on dirt with yours now? :rolleyes: Noob. :p
So an STi with rally tires won't still be spinning its wheels, even with more power? :) I still think it's going to be close, and determined by course design - I don't think either STi or RS will be seconds ahead of the other on a well-mixed course.
and dowroa - bring it, b*tch. :devil: I've had my STi 2 weeks & rallycrossed it twice - how many times have you even played around on dirt with yours now? :rolleyes: Noob. :p
| 10th Warrior | 11-23-2005 01:27 PM |
[quote]I guess I'm not worried about a swarm of STis or EVOs taking over the sport anytime soon[/quote]
and this is where the problem comes from. first off, it only takes [i]one[/i] to dominate the class. Why would I spend the money and go all the way to Hastings to have zero chance at even being within several seconds of the win in my RS? But this is part of the larger problem of these rules. They're writen with the newbie who shows up to a local rally-x with some mods already done to his/her car in mind. Not the serious competitor who is going to purchase a car based on the rules, then modify it to extract the most out of the rules, and be willing to spend the money it will take to win. Then the newbie will show up and wonder why their WRX with a strut bar and some shocks is in the same class with a 350hp STi on rally tires.
i know the favorite past time of alot of rally-xers is to disparage the SIIR, but try attending national solo events and you'll start to see why the rulebook [i]has to[/i] be so specfic and closely guarded with its diction. these things didn't just sprout out of nowhere.
and this is where the problem comes from. first off, it only takes [i]one[/i] to dominate the class. Why would I spend the money and go all the way to Hastings to have zero chance at even being within several seconds of the win in my RS? But this is part of the larger problem of these rules. They're writen with the newbie who shows up to a local rally-x with some mods already done to his/her car in mind. Not the serious competitor who is going to purchase a car based on the rules, then modify it to extract the most out of the rules, and be willing to spend the money it will take to win. Then the newbie will show up and wonder why their WRX with a strut bar and some shocks is in the same class with a 350hp STi on rally tires.
i know the favorite past time of alot of rally-xers is to disparage the SIIR, but try attending national solo events and you'll start to see why the rulebook [i]has to[/i] be so specfic and closely guarded with its diction. these things didn't just sprout out of nowhere.
| 10th Warrior | 11-23-2005 01:32 PM |
[quote]So an STi with rally tires won't still be spinning its wheels, even with more power? [/quote]
having driven Mark's car I can tell you that yes, it will spin its tires and yes, it will still go like a bat out of hell ;) Having tried to keep up with Mark's STi in my humble RS, I can tell you that my goal is to manage to keep within two seconds of him, and that's a difficult mark to hit. In case you're wondering, Mark and I ran basically the same time in his STi at the last event and i've had years of seat time in the RS ;)
having driven Mark's car I can tell you that yes, it will spin its tires and yes, it will still go like a bat out of hell ;) Having tried to keep up with Mark's STi in my humble RS, I can tell you that my goal is to manage to keep within two seconds of him, and that's a difficult mark to hit. In case you're wondering, Mark and I ran basically the same time in his STi at the last event and i've had years of seat time in the RS ;)
| Fred | 11-23-2005 03:05 PM |
Cool. Then I'm looking forward to getting some rally tires on the STi (eventually). :devil:
| dowroa | 11-23-2005 09:32 PM |
[QUOTE=Fred]So an STi with rally tires won't still be spinning its wheels, even with more power? :) I still think it's going to be close, and determined by course design - I don't think either STi or RS will be seconds ahead of the other on a well-mixed course.
and dowroa - bring it, b*tch. :devil: I've had my STi 2 weeks & rallycrossed it twice - how many times have you even played around on dirt with yours now? :rolleyes: Noob. :p[/QUOTE]
Twice. Once when I help setup the course all day and you guys told me to not rallyX it the anymore, and the next day when I Dukes of Hazzard'd my car.
- dow
and dowroa - bring it, b*tch. :devil: I've had my STi 2 weeks & rallycrossed it twice - how many times have you even played around on dirt with yours now? :rolleyes: Noob. :p[/QUOTE]
Twice. Once when I help setup the course all day and you guys told me to not rallyX it the anymore, and the next day when I Dukes of Hazzard'd my car.
- dow
| Fred | 11-24-2005 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE]Twice. Once when I help setup the course all day and you guys told me to not rallyX it the anymore, and the next day when I Dukes of Hazzard'd my car.[/QUOTE]
So post a link to the results. :)
So post a link to the results. :)
| AngryBlueRS | 11-25-2005 06:04 AM |
[QUOTE=Car #187]You've broken engine mounts at a rally-x?!? Wow. [/QUOTE]
I know, old post to this thread but I thought folks may get a kick out of this. ;)
After our last RallyX I noticed a ticking in the drivetrain. Sounded like I had done something really nasty to one of the front axles. I parked the car and did not get around to checking it out till this week. When I lifed the car and crawled underneath, I found the horn wedged between an axle and the frame. Looks like the bracket that holds it in place snapped clean in half.
So I'm not advocating an upgraded horn bracket as part of production, just thought it was funny considering this post regarding how rare it would be to brake a motor mount. ;)
I know, old post to this thread but I thought folks may get a kick out of this. ;)
After our last RallyX I noticed a ticking in the drivetrain. Sounded like I had done something really nasty to one of the front axles. I parked the car and did not get around to checking it out till this week. When I lifed the car and crawled underneath, I found the horn wedged between an axle and the frame. Looks like the bracket that holds it in place snapped clean in half.
So I'm not advocating an upgraded horn bracket as part of production, just thought it was funny considering this post regarding how rare it would be to brake a motor mount. ;)
| Prometheus_6k_rpm | 11-25-2005 08:54 AM |
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]
...just thought it was funny considering this post regarding how rare it would be to brake a motor mount. ;)[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.mfavp.com/misc/mm2.jpg[/IMG]
Stock STi mount after the last rallyx :devil:
...just thought it was funny considering this post regarding how rare it would be to brake a motor mount. ;)[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.mfavp.com/misc/mm2.jpg[/IMG]
Stock STi mount after the last rallyx :devil:
| LGT-FST | 11-25-2005 11:32 PM |
Horn broke
�
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Horn broke trying to pass beat old 2.3 litre Audi. Please get panties unrolled and show up at Ascutney dec. 3. All regions invited bring your snow tyres. :D
| AngryBlueRS | 11-26-2005 06:16 PM |
[QUOTE=LGT-FST]Horn broke trying to pass beat old 2.3 litre Audi. Please get panties unrolled and show up at Ascutney dec. 3. All regions invited bring your snow tyres. :D[/QUOTE]
As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm on a flight to San Diego that day. *Really* bumming as it looks like that's going to drop me from 3rd to 5th for the season. Hey, there is always next year. ;)
As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm on a flight to San Diego that day. *Really* bumming as it looks like that's going to drop me from 3rd to 5th for the season. Hey, there is always next year. ;)
| AngryBlueRS | 11-26-2005 06:29 PM |
Now, back to rally tires in production... :devil:
One of the Mitsu drivers in our region crunched some pretty interesting stats. He went though the last 2 years worth of results for NER (about 20 events) and what he came up with was pretty telling. Background info along with class rules can be found here:
[url]http://www.ner.org/Rally/default.htm[/url]
Some of the highlights:
* Without exception, at dirt events AWD mod cars running on rally tires always take FTD.
* At winter events where everyone is on snows, AWD production cars sometimes take FTD and always end up in the top 3.
* Per the last revision of the 06 rules that were posted, [B]all[/B] winning AWD modified cars running with NER would qualify as production class for next season.
Curious if anyone else has crunched numbers for their region and come up with similar/different results.
One of the Mitsu drivers in our region crunched some pretty interesting stats. He went though the last 2 years worth of results for NER (about 20 events) and what he came up with was pretty telling. Background info along with class rules can be found here:
[url]http://www.ner.org/Rally/default.htm[/url]
Some of the highlights:
* Without exception, at dirt events AWD mod cars running on rally tires always take FTD.
* At winter events where everyone is on snows, AWD production cars sometimes take FTD and always end up in the top 3.
* Per the last revision of the 06 rules that were posted, [B]all[/B] winning AWD modified cars running with NER would qualify as production class for next season.
Curious if anyone else has crunched numbers for their region and come up with similar/different results.
| LGT-FST | 11-26-2005 08:46 PM |
Ascutney
�
�
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm on a flight to San Diego that day. *Really* bumming as it looks like that's going to drop me from 3rd to 5th for the season. Hey, there is always next year. ;)[/QUOTE]
Chris I know you had to work I want the others on this thread to pony up and show for this year ending event. With all this posting going on they certainly have time to come to a rallyx. If you really need the points leave the black monster, Justin and I will make you proud of it. I will also need a curly wig to cover my cue ball. Love the Audi driver from hell. :devil:
Chris I know you had to work I want the others on this thread to pony up and show for this year ending event. With all this posting going on they certainly have time to come to a rallyx. If you really need the points leave the black monster, Justin and I will make you proud of it. I will also need a curly wig to cover my cue ball. Love the Audi driver from hell. :devil:
| AngryBlueRS | 11-26-2005 09:05 PM |
[QUOTE=LGT-FST]If you really need the points leave the black monster, Justin and I will make you proud of it. I will also need a curly wig to cover my cue ball. Love the Audi driver from hell. :devil:[/QUOTE]
LOL! Ya know one of these days we have to swap cars at an event, even if its only for a run or two. :D
LOL! Ya know one of these days we have to swap cars at an event, even if its only for a run or two. :D
| mrmodular | 11-26-2005 11:12 PM |
numbers
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�
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]Now, back to rally tires in production... :devil:
Curious if anyone else has crunched numbers for their region and come up with similar/different results.[/QUOTE]
I�ve taken the time to look over the data from the National Challenge. I was specifically looking for trends in terms of which classes were more popular and what were the performance differences between the classes. When comparing results, I used only the winner of each class, since hyperbole seems to dominate most of the debates about performance potential of drivers, cars and equipment.
Of those attending the event:
Street tires classes comprised 26% (65% of those were locals, 35% were visitors)
Rally tire classes comprised 74% (29% of those were locals, 71% were visitors)
Of the four preparation levels, they were evenly filled at:
Street Stock 26%, Rally Street 22%, Rally Prepared 31%, Rally Modified 22%
In terms of tire use:
Locals on street tires 17%, Visitors on street tires 9%, Locals on rally tires 22%, Visitors on rally tires 52%
Results comparison based on class winners:
Fastest AWD on rally tires vs. fastest AWD on street tires: average 4.5 seconds/lap faster
Fastest 2WD on rally tires vs. fastest 2WD on street tires: average 5.5 seconds/lap faster
Difference from 1st to 2nd in Spady Shootout (class winners in identical cars) 1.878 seconds
Difference from 1st to 8th(last) in Spady Shootout 6.000 seconds
Time differential from Street Stock class to rally class (average seconds faster/lap)
(SSF) RSF (-1.128) RP2 (5.535) RM2 (0.745)
(SSA) RSA (2.655) RP4 (4.485) RM4 (-1.426)
Average of three rally tires classes vs. street tire classes:
2WD: 1.717 seconds/lap faster
4WD: 1.904 seconds/lap faster
Time differential from 4WD to 2WD (average seconds/lap faster) by preparation level:
SS (3.244) RS (7.027) RP (2.194) RM (1.073) Overall (3.338)
Finish order by class:
2WD: RP2, RM2, SSF, RSF, RSR, SSR
4WD: RP4, RSA, SSA, RM4
Overall(difference/lap, average): RP4(0.000), RSA(1.830), RP2(2.194), SSA(4.485), RM4(5.910), RM2(6.983), SSF(7.728), RSF(8.857), RSR(13.848), SSR(15.901)
While this may be a superficial analysis of an uncharacteristic event, I feel that there are some trends to be recognized. Most folks were on rally tires and from out of region. Most of the folks on street tires were locals. The best a modified vehicle on rally tires could do versus a stock vehicle on street tires averaged 5 seconds per lap. The most modified classes were not the fastest. The least modified classes were not the slowest, except for RWD which was significantly slower.
While tires and equipment make this sport more interesting, they don�t ever guarantee results. As is typical in amateur motorsports of all kinds, the stock classes tend to be drivers� classes, and the modified classes tend to be mechanics� classes. The data here and elsewhere strongly contradicts that a stock class is the right place for a novice driver if experienced drivers are allowed in the same class. Many of the comparative arguments against free use of rally tires use the SoloII �Street Tire� classes as their basis. It is my impression that these classes would be better labeled �Bolt-on� classes, as they are more tailored for the tuner crowd and aren�t really about stock rubber. While regional classes may be tailored to attract new drivers, national classes are developed for experienced competitors. Most regions would like to utilize the same regulations for regional and national events for the benefit of their experienced competitors wanting to compete at national events. There is a conflict here which need to be acknowledged. The results from Hastings support this conflict.
Curious if anyone else has crunched numbers for their region and come up with similar/different results.[/QUOTE]
I�ve taken the time to look over the data from the National Challenge. I was specifically looking for trends in terms of which classes were more popular and what were the performance differences between the classes. When comparing results, I used only the winner of each class, since hyperbole seems to dominate most of the debates about performance potential of drivers, cars and equipment.
Of those attending the event:
Street tires classes comprised 26% (65% of those were locals, 35% were visitors)
Rally tire classes comprised 74% (29% of those were locals, 71% were visitors)
Of the four preparation levels, they were evenly filled at:
Street Stock 26%, Rally Street 22%, Rally Prepared 31%, Rally Modified 22%
In terms of tire use:
Locals on street tires 17%, Visitors on street tires 9%, Locals on rally tires 22%, Visitors on rally tires 52%
Results comparison based on class winners:
Fastest AWD on rally tires vs. fastest AWD on street tires: average 4.5 seconds/lap faster
Fastest 2WD on rally tires vs. fastest 2WD on street tires: average 5.5 seconds/lap faster
Difference from 1st to 2nd in Spady Shootout (class winners in identical cars) 1.878 seconds
Difference from 1st to 8th(last) in Spady Shootout 6.000 seconds
Time differential from Street Stock class to rally class (average seconds faster/lap)
(SSF) RSF (-1.128) RP2 (5.535) RM2 (0.745)
(SSA) RSA (2.655) RP4 (4.485) RM4 (-1.426)
Average of three rally tires classes vs. street tire classes:
2WD: 1.717 seconds/lap faster
4WD: 1.904 seconds/lap faster
Time differential from 4WD to 2WD (average seconds/lap faster) by preparation level:
SS (3.244) RS (7.027) RP (2.194) RM (1.073) Overall (3.338)
Finish order by class:
2WD: RP2, RM2, SSF, RSF, RSR, SSR
4WD: RP4, RSA, SSA, RM4
Overall(difference/lap, average): RP4(0.000), RSA(1.830), RP2(2.194), SSA(4.485), RM4(5.910), RM2(6.983), SSF(7.728), RSF(8.857), RSR(13.848), SSR(15.901)
While this may be a superficial analysis of an uncharacteristic event, I feel that there are some trends to be recognized. Most folks were on rally tires and from out of region. Most of the folks on street tires were locals. The best a modified vehicle on rally tires could do versus a stock vehicle on street tires averaged 5 seconds per lap. The most modified classes were not the fastest. The least modified classes were not the slowest, except for RWD which was significantly slower.
While tires and equipment make this sport more interesting, they don�t ever guarantee results. As is typical in amateur motorsports of all kinds, the stock classes tend to be drivers� classes, and the modified classes tend to be mechanics� classes. The data here and elsewhere strongly contradicts that a stock class is the right place for a novice driver if experienced drivers are allowed in the same class. Many of the comparative arguments against free use of rally tires use the SoloII �Street Tire� classes as their basis. It is my impression that these classes would be better labeled �Bolt-on� classes, as they are more tailored for the tuner crowd and aren�t really about stock rubber. While regional classes may be tailored to attract new drivers, national classes are developed for experienced competitors. Most regions would like to utilize the same regulations for regional and national events for the benefit of their experienced competitors wanting to compete at national events. There is a conflict here which need to be acknowledged. The results from Hastings support this conflict.
| mrmodular | 11-26-2005 11:24 PM |
the CA way
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I was looking over the CRS classes, due to some recent conversation. Based on my comments above about how the stiffer competition is usually found in the stock classes, I had a thought on how the CRS rules would work for me. Start with the 2WD/4WD Stock level allowing rally tires. This would be tailored to the competitive drivers who aren't really into souping up their cars. Use the remaing two sets of classes the way they are, where the novices and their tuned rides can go middle tier on street rubber, and the trailer tuggers can do battle in the upper tier with their RX built machines.
| Arnie | 11-27-2005 01:42 AM |
[QUOTE=mrmodular]Results comparison based on class winners:
Fastest AWD on rally tires vs. fastest AWD on street tires: average 4.5 seconds/lap faster
Fastest 2WD on rally tires vs. fastest 2WD on street tires: average 5.5 seconds/lap faster
Difference from 1st to 2nd in Spady Shootout (class winners in identical cars) 1.878 seconds
Difference from 1st to 8th(last) in Spady Shootout [B]6.000 seconds[/B]
[/QUOTE]
Interesting stats. I emphasized the 6 second time difference between 1 and 8th place in the driver's challenge. I think its interesting to note that it was driver's skill that separated those 8 driver's, not car preparation. Apply that time difference to any of the above comparisons between rally tires vs. street tires and you can see that the 1st place driver's challenge driver could have outdistanced the rally tire equipped in a street tire equipped car just on driver skill alone or, at the least, been very close.
I also echo mrmodular's comment that the stock classes are typically the "driver's" class. Those classes tend to be where the most talented guys drive and unfortunately, its the same class that newbs start out in. Any new initiate will have his butt handed to him(and potentially discouraged) in this class regardless of what his car prep is. Its the whole issue of perception again. What mechanical setup deficiencies will a less experienced driver find to make excuses as to why he was so much slower than the others? Will he see the top guys with his adjustable shocks and say, well, he has better shocks that I do, that's why he won? probably. Once again, if its really an issue of nurturing new entrants, more has to be done to do that, and not a simple as saying, no rally tires allowed in stock classes. If one is really worried about the discouraged newb because he just got beaten by a national champ in the same exact car, then its time we took these people under our wings and encourage them with teaching them how to drive and make them aware that driver's skill is arguably the most important thing to have. Or we'll have to have local classes that separate experienced driver's from novices. Which would be a nightmare too.
Fastest AWD on rally tires vs. fastest AWD on street tires: average 4.5 seconds/lap faster
Fastest 2WD on rally tires vs. fastest 2WD on street tires: average 5.5 seconds/lap faster
Difference from 1st to 2nd in Spady Shootout (class winners in identical cars) 1.878 seconds
Difference from 1st to 8th(last) in Spady Shootout [B]6.000 seconds[/B]
[/QUOTE]
Interesting stats. I emphasized the 6 second time difference between 1 and 8th place in the driver's challenge. I think its interesting to note that it was driver's skill that separated those 8 driver's, not car preparation. Apply that time difference to any of the above comparisons between rally tires vs. street tires and you can see that the 1st place driver's challenge driver could have outdistanced the rally tire equipped in a street tire equipped car just on driver skill alone or, at the least, been very close.
I also echo mrmodular's comment that the stock classes are typically the "driver's" class. Those classes tend to be where the most talented guys drive and unfortunately, its the same class that newbs start out in. Any new initiate will have his butt handed to him(and potentially discouraged) in this class regardless of what his car prep is. Its the whole issue of perception again. What mechanical setup deficiencies will a less experienced driver find to make excuses as to why he was so much slower than the others? Will he see the top guys with his adjustable shocks and say, well, he has better shocks that I do, that's why he won? probably. Once again, if its really an issue of nurturing new entrants, more has to be done to do that, and not a simple as saying, no rally tires allowed in stock classes. If one is really worried about the discouraged newb because he just got beaten by a national champ in the same exact car, then its time we took these people under our wings and encourage them with teaching them how to drive and make them aware that driver's skill is arguably the most important thing to have. Or we'll have to have local classes that separate experienced driver's from novices. Which would be a nightmare too.
| AngryBlueRS | 11-27-2005 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]Interesting stats. I emphasized the 6 second time difference between 1 and 8th place in the driver's challenge. I think its interesting to note that it was driver's skill that separated those 8 driver's, not car preparation. [/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how much "stock" I would put in this one stat. From what I hear these were auto tranny cars that folks were told not to beat up and not to shift manually. In other words, trash the car and you are ticking off a sponsor and possibly costing the program $$$. Putting myself in that position and having already won my class, I doubt I would be pushing flat out for the best time.
Also, I would expect folks that had been running the surface for two days on street tires to do a better job than folks that were used to the grip level of rally tires. Takes a run to aclimate to the course & setup but in this case only one run was permitted. With this in mind folks with a setup that most closely matching the test car would have the greatest advantage on this single test.
Now had it been a set of three runs or more with no concern for the car and the drivers permitted to drive the way they wanted to, that could have been interesting.
I'm not sure how much "stock" I would put in this one stat. From what I hear these were auto tranny cars that folks were told not to beat up and not to shift manually. In other words, trash the car and you are ticking off a sponsor and possibly costing the program $$$. Putting myself in that position and having already won my class, I doubt I would be pushing flat out for the best time.
Also, I would expect folks that had been running the surface for two days on street tires to do a better job than folks that were used to the grip level of rally tires. Takes a run to aclimate to the course & setup but in this case only one run was permitted. With this in mind folks with a setup that most closely matching the test car would have the greatest advantage on this single test.
Now had it been a set of three runs or more with no concern for the car and the drivers permitted to drive the way they wanted to, that could have been interesting.
| rupertberr | 11-27-2005 12:12 PM |
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]I'm not sure how much "stock" I would put in this one stat. From what I hear these were auto tranny cars that folks were told not to beat up and not to shift manually. In other words, trash the car and you are ticking off a sponsor and possibly costing the program $$$. Putting myself in that position and having already won my class, I doubt I would be pushing flat out for the best time.
[/QUOTE]
No. The Sponsor told the drivers to beat the **** out of the cars. No one backed off. These were FWD Toyota Camry's with OEM tires. As far as your other supposition that the street tire front wheel car driver would have the greatest advantage, he finished 6th...
You can nit pick every statement and every stat but I think mrmodular's data is accurate and relevant.
[/QUOTE]
No. The Sponsor told the drivers to beat the **** out of the cars. No one backed off. These were FWD Toyota Camry's with OEM tires. As far as your other supposition that the street tire front wheel car driver would have the greatest advantage, he finished 6th...
You can nit pick every statement and every stat but I think mrmodular's data is accurate and relevant.
| Arnie | 11-27-2005 12:13 PM |
Geez, once again, finding any excuse!
I guess the only way to find out is ask those 8 folk how hard they drove. 1 st place had run snow tires on his car, so he had decent grip in his class so going to tractionless street tires should have been just as "difficult" an adjustment for him. I dunno, I think its a serious insult to these drivers who are competing at a national event to determine who is the best driver is, to say that they would not be pushing. If the sponsors were seriously worried about their car, they sure as hell wouldn't have donated it for a freakin' rallyx where a car rolled the previous day. Hell, the winner was doing doughnuts, forwards and backwards after his win.
I guess the only way to find out is ask those 8 folk how hard they drove. 1 st place had run snow tires on his car, so he had decent grip in his class so going to tractionless street tires should have been just as "difficult" an adjustment for him. I dunno, I think its a serious insult to these drivers who are competing at a national event to determine who is the best driver is, to say that they would not be pushing. If the sponsors were seriously worried about their car, they sure as hell wouldn't have donated it for a freakin' rallyx where a car rolled the previous day. Hell, the winner was doing doughnuts, forwards and backwards after his win.
| AngryBlueRS | 11-27-2005 01:53 PM |
[QUOTE=rupertberr]No. The Sponsor told the drivers to beat the **** out of the cars. No one backed off.
[/QUOTE]
Humm. Not what I heard from two competitors and an organizer, but I guess I could be wrong.
[QUOTE]
These were FWD Toyota Camry's with OEM tires. As far as your other supposition that the street tire front wheel car driver would have the greatest advantage, he finished 6th...
[/QUOTE]
Excellent point! This seems to indicate that the assumption of all the drivers being equal is flawed. True an AWD on stock tires took the class, but one would expect the FWD driver to do better. This says to me that we are trying to compare apples to oranges here. One of the problems with only working with a single data point. Multiple events with multiple winners would probably help to even this out.
Thanks for pointing this out!
[QUOTE]
You can nit pick every statement and every stat but I think mrmodular's data is accurate and relevant.
[/QUOTE]
I'm confused by this statement. You just described why there are inconsistencies in the data set so I'm not sure why you are now saying it is accurate. :confused:
[/QUOTE]
Humm. Not what I heard from two competitors and an organizer, but I guess I could be wrong.
[QUOTE]
These were FWD Toyota Camry's with OEM tires. As far as your other supposition that the street tire front wheel car driver would have the greatest advantage, he finished 6th...
[/QUOTE]
Excellent point! This seems to indicate that the assumption of all the drivers being equal is flawed. True an AWD on stock tires took the class, but one would expect the FWD driver to do better. This says to me that we are trying to compare apples to oranges here. One of the problems with only working with a single data point. Multiple events with multiple winners would probably help to even this out.
Thanks for pointing this out!
[QUOTE]
You can nit pick every statement and every stat but I think mrmodular's data is accurate and relevant.
[/QUOTE]
I'm confused by this statement. You just described why there are inconsistencies in the data set so I'm not sure why you are now saying it is accurate. :confused:
| Arnie | 11-27-2005 02:23 PM |
In the end, I think the point being made, is the supposition that rally tires in stock classes will so dominate that newbs will be scared off is ridiculous. that rally tires are the make it or break it mod. that, in the end, driver skill is what makes the biggest difference and that, a skilled driver, in a stock car on street tires can still beat another driver on rally tires. Certainly, same driver, same car, different tires, the rally tires will be faster. But we are talking about people whining that rally tires in the stock class will scare off newbs, that they will be taking all the victories, yada, yada. The point is, the best driver will take the wins regardless of setup.
I dunno, this resistance to allowing rally tires in all classes is kinda silly, especially coming from regions who have never tried this rule setup. How could they possibly know if it would work or not? The regions who have run this setup say it works. I understand the debate, but c'mon, open your minds up, and give it a try.
I dunno, this resistance to allowing rally tires in all classes is kinda silly, especially coming from regions who have never tried this rule setup. How could they possibly know if it would work or not? The regions who have run this setup say it works. I understand the debate, but c'mon, open your minds up, and give it a try.
| rupertberr | 11-27-2005 02:24 PM |
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]Humm. Not what I heard from two competitors and an organizer, but I guess I could be wrong.[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]
I was there. You are wrong.
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]Excellent point! This seems to indicate that the assumption of all the drivers being equal is flawed. True an AWD on stock tires took the class, but one would expect the FWD driver to do better. This says to me that we are trying to compare apples to oranges here. One of the problems with only working with a single data point. Multiple events with multiple winners would probably help to even this out.
Thanks for pointing this out![QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]
No, again. I am pointing out that your argument is wrong. This was a fair test with all drivers and no one had an advantage. If you expect everyone to finish with an equal time I guess I don't get your point. The whole idea is to see who is the best in as equal an environment as you can get.
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]I'm confused by this statement. You just described why there are inconsistencies in the data set so I'm not sure why you are now saying it is accurate. :confused:[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]
Nit picking is like winning the lottery but complaining about having to pay the taxes.
I was there. You are wrong.
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]Excellent point! This seems to indicate that the assumption of all the drivers being equal is flawed. True an AWD on stock tires took the class, but one would expect the FWD driver to do better. This says to me that we are trying to compare apples to oranges here. One of the problems with only working with a single data point. Multiple events with multiple winners would probably help to even this out.
Thanks for pointing this out![QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]
No, again. I am pointing out that your argument is wrong. This was a fair test with all drivers and no one had an advantage. If you expect everyone to finish with an equal time I guess I don't get your point. The whole idea is to see who is the best in as equal an environment as you can get.
[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]I'm confused by this statement. You just described why there are inconsistencies in the data set so I'm not sure why you are now saying it is accurate. :confused:[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]
Nit picking is like winning the lottery but complaining about having to pay the taxes.
| rupertberr | 11-27-2005 02:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]In the end, I think the point being made, is the supposition that rally tires in stock classes will so dominate that newbs will be scared off is ridiculous. that rally tires are the make it or break it mod. that, in the end, driver skill is what makes the biggest difference and that, a skilled driver, in a stock car on street tires can still beat another driver on rally tires. Certainly, same driver, same car, different tires, the rally tires will be faster. But we are talking about people whining that rally tires in the stock class will scare off newbs, that they will be taking all the victories, yada, yada. The point is, the best driver will take the wins regardless of setup.[/QUOTE]
Arnie get's it!
:)
Arnie get's it!
:)
| JessesTalon | 11-27-2005 02:55 PM |
well if they EVER get a RALLYx in Phx... ill read the rules... otherwise illw ait till i move back to oregon
| cowapult | 11-27-2005 03:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]In the end, I think the point being made, is the supposition that rally tires in stock classes will so dominate that newbs will be scared off is ridiculous. that rally tires are the make it or break it mod. that, in the end, driver skill is what makes the biggest difference and that, a skilled driver, in a stock car on street tires can still beat another driver on rally tires. Certainly, same driver, same car, different tires, the rally tires will be faster. But we are talking about people whining that rally tires in the stock class will scare off newbs, that they will be taking all the victories, yada, yada. The point is, the best driver will take the wins regardless of setup.[/quote]
I love the data from mrmodular and I actually agree the points in Arnie's quote above.
But, I think you missed my point. My thesis is that some newbs will be scared away by the perceived expense of an initial outlay for equipment, not scared away by losing. I think we all agree that newbs will lose. So, I want newbs to see that the only thing they have to do to get faster is show up at the next event - NOT to plop down an initial outlay $$$ to level the playing field. One image attracts them, the other turns them away.
And yes, I know you're saying that rally tires are not really necessary for a great driver to turn fast times and I agree with that. But, this is marketing and perception matters as much as fact. If novices see good guys running rally tires, they get the impression that the playing field is not level. We can actively try to dispel that notion, but it's hard to argue with words against what they think they see in front of them. Heck, we all admit that rally tires help somewhat.
[QUOTE=Arnie] I dunno, this resistance to allowing rally tires in all classes is kinda ridiculous, especially coming from regions who have never tried this rule setup. How could they possibly know if it would work or not? The regions who have run this setup say it works. I understand the debate, but c'mon, open your minds up, and give it a try.[/QUOTE]
I admit we've never tried rally tires in stock class, but we do have experience with newbs, what motivates them to come back, and how newbs rationalize their performance compared to cars with rally tires.
I'm open to the idea, and I see your arguements, but I see more disadvantages than advantages.
I love the data from mrmodular and I actually agree the points in Arnie's quote above.
But, I think you missed my point. My thesis is that some newbs will be scared away by the perceived expense of an initial outlay for equipment, not scared away by losing. I think we all agree that newbs will lose. So, I want newbs to see that the only thing they have to do to get faster is show up at the next event - NOT to plop down an initial outlay $$$ to level the playing field. One image attracts them, the other turns them away.
And yes, I know you're saying that rally tires are not really necessary for a great driver to turn fast times and I agree with that. But, this is marketing and perception matters as much as fact. If novices see good guys running rally tires, they get the impression that the playing field is not level. We can actively try to dispel that notion, but it's hard to argue with words against what they think they see in front of them. Heck, we all admit that rally tires help somewhat.
[QUOTE=Arnie] I dunno, this resistance to allowing rally tires in all classes is kinda ridiculous, especially coming from regions who have never tried this rule setup. How could they possibly know if it would work or not? The regions who have run this setup say it works. I understand the debate, but c'mon, open your minds up, and give it a try.[/QUOTE]
I admit we've never tried rally tires in stock class, but we do have experience with newbs, what motivates them to come back, and how newbs rationalize their performance compared to cars with rally tires.
I'm open to the idea, and I see your arguements, but I see more disadvantages than advantages.
| Arnie | 11-27-2005 04:15 PM |
Awesome! but how hard is it to explain that the mods that some folk are using can be easily over come by learning to drive? I use my buddy vikingmoose all the time as an example, his WRX has STi suspension, swaybars, etc. Went to an autocross and got his butt handed to him by a guy in a bone stock WRX. It was crystal clear that all he needs is driving ability and not setup. And he is more excited than ever to improve, he's done two Evo schools and is improving all the time. The same can be said and done with rallyx. Rallyx is more fun, IMO, and it doens't take much for a newb to get hooked. The California rallyx scene is a relatively tight knit group and its obvious who's new at an event. Its important to go up to the newbs and be sociable. Help them out, hold their hands AFTER EACH RUN! Give them pointers. Downplay the importance of equipment! That comraderie and openess will go a long way towards getting a newb to enjoy the experience and learn. Nothing worse than going to an event, totally green seeing others kicking butt and then not having a single person come up to you and ask how you are doing.
perceived expense of rallyx in order to do what? Be able to actually drive in the dirt? Or be competitive? If its about being competitive, all it takes is a simple conversation with anyone new to the sport that you don't need anything to turn quick times and be competitive! Just as you think that people have perceptions, marketing, eetc. realize that those perceptions can be manipulated and guided. Its not difficult.
Like I've said, if person is going to complain and find an excuse for lackluster performance, they are going to do it. If that will discourage them from coming back then they've got bigger issues than not having rally tires on their car. He would have the same attitude if he had a fully prepped open car! This can be dealt with in two ways: 1. Say bye-bye, because who really cares about having this whiny element anyway, or 2. Go up to this person and support him. Educate him. Make sure he had a good time.
perceived expense of rallyx in order to do what? Be able to actually drive in the dirt? Or be competitive? If its about being competitive, all it takes is a simple conversation with anyone new to the sport that you don't need anything to turn quick times and be competitive! Just as you think that people have perceptions, marketing, eetc. realize that those perceptions can be manipulated and guided. Its not difficult.
Like I've said, if person is going to complain and find an excuse for lackluster performance, they are going to do it. If that will discourage them from coming back then they've got bigger issues than not having rally tires on their car. He would have the same attitude if he had a fully prepped open car! This can be dealt with in two ways: 1. Say bye-bye, because who really cares about having this whiny element anyway, or 2. Go up to this person and support him. Educate him. Make sure he had a good time.
| LGT-FST | 11-27-2005 04:16 PM |
Rally tyres in prod
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If you let an sti change its brake system then bolt on 15s with rally tyres and let it in the production class nothing else will stand a chance. This year in the New England region sti's did not dominate because they cannot put 300 ponies the ground because of the lack of aggressive tyres for 17" rims. The racing in the production class was very close with a toyota truck, an sti plenty of wrx's, a few impezza's and a lone Audi coupe with 163 hp. The variety of hp and the availability of steet tyres made for very close finishes. My vote goes for rally tyres in the modified classes. Dont forget dec. 3 at Ascutney and bring your snow tyres. Do more racin and less postin. :D
| Fred | 11-27-2005 06:42 PM |
Amen to cowapult.
to those of you who won't see an advantage to running rally tires against street tires, :confused:
What's wrong with having one class where you can bring your street car on street tires and have a chance of being competitive? I understand that a lot of people want to run on rally tires (I'm one of them), but how about letting those who don't want to buy an extra set of wheels and tires have a chance? If it's really a stupid idea, we'll all see how stupid it is when nobody runs it that class. :lol: (not a chance in Hell)
If them's the rules & whoever don't like 'em can suck it, then I guess there's not much else to say.
I wanted to add that I agree that those who show up once & never return for whatever reason are not missed. We do everything we can to make sure everybody has a great time, but I'm not going to beg anybody to come back if they didn't enjoy it. And the main thing that keeps people coming back to our events isn't really the competition, it's driving like a bunch of crazy mofos on dirt. :)
to those of you who won't see an advantage to running rally tires against street tires, :confused:
What's wrong with having one class where you can bring your street car on street tires and have a chance of being competitive? I understand that a lot of people want to run on rally tires (I'm one of them), but how about letting those who don't want to buy an extra set of wheels and tires have a chance? If it's really a stupid idea, we'll all see how stupid it is when nobody runs it that class. :lol: (not a chance in Hell)
If them's the rules & whoever don't like 'em can suck it, then I guess there's not much else to say.
I wanted to add that I agree that those who show up once & never return for whatever reason are not missed. We do everything we can to make sure everybody has a great time, but I'm not going to beg anybody to come back if they didn't enjoy it. And the main thing that keeps people coming back to our events isn't really the competition, it's driving like a bunch of crazy mofos on dirt. :)
| rupertberr | 11-27-2005 08:44 PM |
Since many of your regions don't run rally tires and don't know how they effect rookies in the real world I'll tell you how it works with us. Our region has run traditional rally rules since day one, which includes running rally tires. We have had a 300% increase in partricipation over the past 5 years. I have been the series chairman for the past two. We have a special rookie orientation after every drivers meeting and have experienced drivers ride along with the rookies that request help. We also have a driver ride along if the rookie seems to be struggling. We invite all rookies to ride with experienced drivers.
As the series chairman I like to talk to the rookies afterwards and see if they plan on coming back. The most common reasons for the few who plan not to return are as follows:
My car is set up for autocross and the suspension is too stiff for RallyCross.
I don't want to get my car THIS dirty.
I don't want to beat my car up THIS much.
Never, NOT ONCE, has anyone said I am not coming back because the fast guys are using rally tires.
To prove that rally tires aren't the end all 3 of our past 5 Production and Production GT champions won on street tires despite being allowed to run rally tires. In Production GT the following street tires have won on dirt rounds: RE92's, BFG KDWS, Hankook 404's, Blizzaks, Dunlop M2, Michelin Alpines and one very talented driver even won once on a set of shaved Falken Azenis. I am not counting snow and ice races since street tires always win there. The most common winning tire on dirt are still Khumo and Michelin rally tires. Most of the Michelin guys, incuding myself, run on 16" OEM wheels.
As the series chairman I like to talk to the rookies afterwards and see if they plan on coming back. The most common reasons for the few who plan not to return are as follows:
My car is set up for autocross and the suspension is too stiff for RallyCross.
I don't want to get my car THIS dirty.
I don't want to beat my car up THIS much.
Never, NOT ONCE, has anyone said I am not coming back because the fast guys are using rally tires.
To prove that rally tires aren't the end all 3 of our past 5 Production and Production GT champions won on street tires despite being allowed to run rally tires. In Production GT the following street tires have won on dirt rounds: RE92's, BFG KDWS, Hankook 404's, Blizzaks, Dunlop M2, Michelin Alpines and one very talented driver even won once on a set of shaved Falken Azenis. I am not counting snow and ice races since street tires always win there. The most common winning tire on dirt are still Khumo and Michelin rally tires. Most of the Michelin guys, incuding myself, run on 16" OEM wheels.
| mrmodular | 11-27-2005 11:50 PM |
shoot out
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[QUOTE=AngryBlueRS]I'm not sure how much "stock" I would put in this one stat. From what I hear these were auto tranny cars that folks were told not to beat up and not to shift manually. In other words, trash the car and you are ticking off a sponsor and possibly costing the program $$$. Putting myself in that position and having already won my class, I doubt I would be pushing flat out for the best time.
Also, I would expect folks that had been running the surface for two days on street tires to do a better job than folks that were used to the grip level of rally tires. Takes a run to aclimate to the course & setup but in this case only one run was permitted. With this in mind folks with a setup that most closely matching the test car would have the greatest advantage on this single test.
Now had it been a set of three runs or more with no concern for the car and the drivers permitted to drive the way they wanted to, that could have been interesting.[/QUOTE]
The restrictions on the use of the cars were to not downshift and not handbrake. The recommendation was to otherwise beat the cars silly. What's more fair than one single run in identical cars on a course not seen before taking turns by a draw of numbers? True, the SSF driver should have had an advantage, but finished 6th (3.766 seconds back). Otherwise, rumors of any of the eight class-winning competitors not giving it their all are probably coming from those who lost.
Also, I would expect folks that had been running the surface for two days on street tires to do a better job than folks that were used to the grip level of rally tires. Takes a run to aclimate to the course & setup but in this case only one run was permitted. With this in mind folks with a setup that most closely matching the test car would have the greatest advantage on this single test.
Now had it been a set of three runs or more with no concern for the car and the drivers permitted to drive the way they wanted to, that could have been interesting.[/QUOTE]
The restrictions on the use of the cars were to not downshift and not handbrake. The recommendation was to otherwise beat the cars silly. What's more fair than one single run in identical cars on a course not seen before taking turns by a draw of numbers? True, the SSF driver should have had an advantage, but finished 6th (3.766 seconds back). Otherwise, rumors of any of the eight class-winning competitors not giving it their all are probably coming from those who lost.
| 10th Warrior | 11-28-2005 02:25 PM |
of course, not all the class winners competed ;)
also, why did you bother looking at time differentials between classes in different heats? sometimes the course wasn't even close to the same from one heat to the next.
anyway, one could look at the national challenge and argue that with such an even distribution of compeitors across the categories, perhaps things aren't as broken as others would have us believe.
also, why did you bother looking at time differentials between classes in different heats? sometimes the course wasn't even close to the same from one heat to the next.
anyway, one could look at the national challenge and argue that with such an even distribution of compeitors across the categories, perhaps things aren't as broken as others would have us believe.
| mrmodular | 11-28-2005 02:46 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]of course, not all the class winners competed ;)[/QUOTE]
According to Lotto: You can't win if you don't play.
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]also, why did you bother looking at time differentials between classes in different heats? sometimes the course wasn't even close to the same from one heat to the next.[/QUOTE]
True, I didn't have heat info at my disposal. Maybe just comparing day 2 times would have been more accurate, but I wanted more data to overcome spikes in the data set.
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]anyway, one could look at the national challenge and argue that with such an even distribution of compeitors across the categories, perhaps things aren't as broken as others would have us believe.[/QUOTE]
No secret that I don't care for those classes, but the data absolutely supports your statement.
According to Lotto: You can't win if you don't play.
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]also, why did you bother looking at time differentials between classes in different heats? sometimes the course wasn't even close to the same from one heat to the next.[/QUOTE]
True, I didn't have heat info at my disposal. Maybe just comparing day 2 times would have been more accurate, but I wanted more data to overcome spikes in the data set.
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]anyway, one could look at the national challenge and argue that with such an even distribution of compeitors across the categories, perhaps things aren't as broken as others would have us believe.[/QUOTE]
No secret that I don't care for those classes, but the data absolutely supports your statement.
| Porsche914boxer4 | 11-28-2005 03:22 PM |
edited below.
| 10th Warrior | 11-28-2005 04:04 PM |
Day 2 had even more frequent course changes ;)
| Porsche914boxer4 | 11-28-2005 04:11 PM |
[QUOTE=Prometheus_6k_rpm]Well... I think 10th Warrior (Muggy) and I know a thing or two about the RS and STi. (My car was 1st & 2nd at nationals with FTD both days)
[/QUOTE]
I disagree with you. The nationals course, which I mentioned a minute ago, WAY favored horsepower. And your car has a lot of Hp.
Most regional courses are short and extremely technical, as they should be. The RS's are almost without exception VERY competitive with the STi's, and i'll go one step further and say it is an all around better car gfor the purpose: It's smaller, has better gearing, lighter, rotates easier, and has torque for days (which the STi, even with the 2.5L motor, seems to be lacking).
Check the times and events in the CRS, where I dare say some of the most intense competition in the country is taking place, and you will see that a basically bone stock RS on rally tires driven by my buddy John Chabot (I think that's his last name) DOMINATES the STi in almost every single event, even against 400 hp open class STi's on brand new Pirellis. And Travis Brock in his 2004 2.5 RS is simply one of the best rallycross drivers out there.
Now about the tires:
To allow rally tires in Stock classes is a TERRIBLE idea. Just as letting Stock cars in Solo events to run R compound tires. The point of stock classes is to:
1. race in basically showroom condition,
2. control costs of entry, and to a much lesser extent,
3. attract new people
Pulling a trailer in with your rally wheels is not something you should see in a stock class. The exceptions allowed in stock classes already, in the CRS region at least, are way outside the scope of what I think a STOCK car is (exhaust is basically open, as is intake, and ECU's can be reflashed.....I mean come on! Is that stock?)
I've competed in stock classes for the last few years and if someone showed up with rally tires it would be laughable how outclassed I would be.
Eli Gilbert
2004 CRS Street Stock Champion (2WD)
2005 CRS Street Stock Champion (2WD)
[/QUOTE]
I disagree with you. The nationals course, which I mentioned a minute ago, WAY favored horsepower. And your car has a lot of Hp.
Most regional courses are short and extremely technical, as they should be. The RS's are almost without exception VERY competitive with the STi's, and i'll go one step further and say it is an all around better car gfor the purpose: It's smaller, has better gearing, lighter, rotates easier, and has torque for days (which the STi, even with the 2.5L motor, seems to be lacking).
Check the times and events in the CRS, where I dare say some of the most intense competition in the country is taking place, and you will see that a basically bone stock RS on rally tires driven by my buddy John Chabot (I think that's his last name) DOMINATES the STi in almost every single event, even against 400 hp open class STi's on brand new Pirellis. And Travis Brock in his 2004 2.5 RS is simply one of the best rallycross drivers out there.
Now about the tires:
To allow rally tires in Stock classes is a TERRIBLE idea. Just as letting Stock cars in Solo events to run R compound tires. The point of stock classes is to:
1. race in basically showroom condition,
2. control costs of entry, and to a much lesser extent,
3. attract new people
Pulling a trailer in with your rally wheels is not something you should see in a stock class. The exceptions allowed in stock classes already, in the CRS region at least, are way outside the scope of what I think a STOCK car is (exhaust is basically open, as is intake, and ECU's can be reflashed.....I mean come on! Is that stock?)
I've competed in stock classes for the last few years and if someone showed up with rally tires it would be laughable how outclassed I would be.
Eli Gilbert
2004 CRS Street Stock Champion (2WD)
2005 CRS Street Stock Champion (2WD)
| 10th Warrior | 11-28-2005 05:41 PM |
[quote]The RS's are almost without exception VERY competitive with the STi's, and i'll go one step further and say it is an all around better car gfor the purpose[/quote]
as i stated earlier, i can drive my car, which i've been driving for years and set a good time. i try to keep within 2 seconds of Mark. I can then jump in Mark's car and set an equivalent time to him. At any local event. Its not even close. Now, a WRX and an RS are close. An STi is head and shoulders above them both.
FWIW, when Mark first started coming out, I could beat him in his STi with my RS. I've also beat Paul Dunn in his Open class EVO IV with my RS. I did it the same way I beat vipers and vettes at an auto-x with my RS: I out drove them. That's what you're discribing. When you get a good driver in an STi though, its over.
as i stated earlier, i can drive my car, which i've been driving for years and set a good time. i try to keep within 2 seconds of Mark. I can then jump in Mark's car and set an equivalent time to him. At any local event. Its not even close. Now, a WRX and an RS are close. An STi is head and shoulders above them both.
FWIW, when Mark first started coming out, I could beat him in his STi with my RS. I've also beat Paul Dunn in his Open class EVO IV with my RS. I did it the same way I beat vipers and vettes at an auto-x with my RS: I out drove them. That's what you're discribing. When you get a good driver in an STi though, its over.
| Porsche914boxer4 | 11-28-2005 06:08 PM |
You guys must have huge, wide open courses because seriously, the RS's on our courses kick butt.
| 10th Warrior | 11-28-2005 06:50 PM |
[url=http://www.stlrallyx.org/media.html]see for yourself[/url]
| Porsche914boxer4 | 11-28-2005 07:07 PM |
damn! I'll say!
| pcowan | 11-29-2005 04:02 AM |
A few notes to add to this:
[QUOTE=Porsche914boxer4]Check the times and events in the CRS, where I dare say some of the most intense competition in the country is taking place, and you will see that a basically bone stock RS on rally tires driven by my buddy John Chabot (I think that's his last name) DOMINATES the STi in almost every single event, even against 400 hp open class STi's on brand new Pirellis. And Travis Brock in his 2004 2.5 RS is simply one of the best rallycross drivers out there.
[/QUOTE]
At our events at Thunderhill, Travis and John's RS's on rally tires were nearly unstoppable.
[QUOTE=Porsche914boxer4]
Now about the tires:
Pulling a trailer in with your rally wheels is not something you should see in a stock class.
....
I've competed in stock classes for the last few years and if someone showed up with rally tires it would be laughable how outclassed I would be.
[/QUOTE]
+1
I think this is really the point. If you show up brand new to rallyX and the people top in your class are running aggressive tires, it gives the [B]impresssion[/B] that to be competitive that you have to buy another set of tires. I'm gathering since this is a motorsport forum on a car enthusist board that we don't have a problem with that. The average person who maybe doesn't make racing their life might not want to devote their life (and wallet) to being competitive, regardless of how untrue it might be. The image is, money equal faster stage/lap/trial times. We're already hooked on the sport, we shouldn't be looking to please ourselves.
Oh, and Eli, it was only 1 event and they are Michelins, not Pirelli's. ;)
--pete
[QUOTE=Porsche914boxer4]Check the times and events in the CRS, where I dare say some of the most intense competition in the country is taking place, and you will see that a basically bone stock RS on rally tires driven by my buddy John Chabot (I think that's his last name) DOMINATES the STi in almost every single event, even against 400 hp open class STi's on brand new Pirellis. And Travis Brock in his 2004 2.5 RS is simply one of the best rallycross drivers out there.
[/QUOTE]
At our events at Thunderhill, Travis and John's RS's on rally tires were nearly unstoppable.
[QUOTE=Porsche914boxer4]
Now about the tires:
Pulling a trailer in with your rally wheels is not something you should see in a stock class.
....
I've competed in stock classes for the last few years and if someone showed up with rally tires it would be laughable how outclassed I would be.
[/QUOTE]
+1
I think this is really the point. If you show up brand new to rallyX and the people top in your class are running aggressive tires, it gives the [B]impresssion[/B] that to be competitive that you have to buy another set of tires. I'm gathering since this is a motorsport forum on a car enthusist board that we don't have a problem with that. The average person who maybe doesn't make racing their life might not want to devote their life (and wallet) to being competitive, regardless of how untrue it might be. The image is, money equal faster stage/lap/trial times. We're already hooked on the sport, we shouldn't be looking to please ourselves.
Oh, and Eli, it was only 1 event and they are Michelins, not Pirelli's. ;)
--pete
| Porsche914boxer4 | 11-29-2005 11:50 AM |
[QUOTE=pcowan]
Oh, and Eli, it was only 1 event and they are Michelins, not Pirelli's. ;)
--pete[/QUOTE]
haha Pete, I was talking about Mark Gardner's car, down here in SoCal.
Oh, and Eli, it was only 1 event and they are Michelins, not Pirelli's. ;)
--pete[/QUOTE]
haha Pete, I was talking about Mark Gardner's car, down here in SoCal.
| MarkA | 11-29-2005 07:39 PM |
[QUOTE=pcowan]A few notes to add to this:
At our events at Thunderhill, Travis and John's RS's on rally tires were nearly unstoppable.
[/QUOTE]
And to add to that, it's because you guys design great courses, not back and forth sweepers that favor power and who has a better LSD setup.
At our events at Thunderhill, Travis and John's RS's on rally tires were nearly unstoppable.
[/QUOTE]
And to add to that, it's because you guys design great courses, not back and forth sweepers that favor power and who has a better LSD setup.
| greg donovan | 11-29-2005 08:16 PM |
[QUOTE=MarkA]And to add to that, it's because you guys design great courses, not back and forth sweepers that favor power and who has a better LSD setup.[/QUOTE]
when we set courses in minnesota we try to lay them out so that there is a sction that plays to the strength of each type of car.
fast sweepers for some power and then a few tight switchbacks maybe a slalom and a pin turn to whip a donut around. we also try to incroporate areas where braking is key and give the drivers some very wide sections w/many possible lines but only one fast one.
when we set courses in minnesota we try to lay them out so that there is a sction that plays to the strength of each type of car.
fast sweepers for some power and then a few tight switchbacks maybe a slalom and a pin turn to whip a donut around. we also try to incroporate areas where braking is key and give the drivers some very wide sections w/many possible lines but only one fast one.
| MarkA | 11-29-2005 11:04 PM |
[QUOTE=greg donovan]when we set courses in minnesota we try to lay them out so that there is a sction that plays to the strength of each type of car.
fast sweepers for some power and then a few tight switchbacks maybe a slalom and a pin turn to whip a donut around. we also try to incroporate areas where braking is key and give the drivers some very wide sections w/many possible lines but only one fast one.[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong - I wasn't saying higher-speed/more open elements shouldn't be present, only that a course should not consist entirely of them, ala, the Nationals.
fast sweepers for some power and then a few tight switchbacks maybe a slalom and a pin turn to whip a donut around. we also try to incroporate areas where braking is key and give the drivers some very wide sections w/many possible lines but only one fast one.[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong - I wasn't saying higher-speed/more open elements shouldn't be present, only that a course should not consist entirely of them, ala, the Nationals.
| greg donovan | 11-30-2005 08:55 AM |
[QUOTE=MarkA]Don't get me wrong - I wasn't saying higher-speed/more open elements shouldn't be present, only that a course should not consist entirely of them, ala, the Nationals.[/QUOTE]
i was a greeing w/you and describing how we do our courses.
i always wanted to do spilt times to see who was faster on what section but we never have enough volunteers or watches.
i was a greeing w/you and describing how we do our courses.
i always wanted to do spilt times to see who was faster on what section but we never have enough volunteers or watches.
| Fred | 11-30-2005 09:42 AM |
[QUOTE]a pin turn to whip a donut around.[/QUOTE]
You have people that drive donuts out there? That seems unpossible. :confused:
;)
We try to have something for every type of car & driver on our courses, but we don't do pivot cones. If we did, we'd be driving into and out of 5 foot deep pits after a few runs. :eek:
You have people that drive donuts out there? That seems unpossible. :confused:
;)
We try to have something for every type of car & driver on our courses, but we don't do pivot cones. If we did, we'd be driving into and out of 5 foot deep pits after a few runs. :eek:
| greg donovan | 11-30-2005 10:17 AM |
[QUOTE=Fred]You have people that drive donuts out there? That seems unpossible. :confused:
;)
We try to have something for every type of car & driver on our courses, but we don't do pivot cones. If we did, we'd be driving into and out of 5 foot deep pits after a few runs. :eek:[/QUOTE]
they usually dont stick around for the whole day. usually just one run set. and only usually come out of the eventmaster gets a wild hair.
;)
We try to have something for every type of car & driver on our courses, but we don't do pivot cones. If we did, we'd be driving into and out of 5 foot deep pits after a few runs. :eek:[/QUOTE]
they usually dont stick around for the whole day. usually just one run set. and only usually come out of the eventmaster gets a wild hair.
| dirtfarmer | 12-02-2005 10:49 AM |
:huh:
All of this premature, anyway. Someone had pe problems and posted this before the stewards (I am one of the Divisional Stewards) have even completed discussions. Then the rules package has to go to the Board of Directors for voting. After the BoD vote they become the national rules.
David Brooks
SEDiv
All of this premature, anyway. Someone had pe problems and posted this before the stewards (I am one of the Divisional Stewards) have even completed discussions. Then the rules package has to go to the Board of Directors for voting. After the BoD vote they become the national rules.
David Brooks
SEDiv
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