| RaceComp Engineering | 12-05-2004 11:51 AM |
Road Racers !!! who shuffle steers, and who doesnt..
�
�
I shuffle steer in sports cars and sedans, and have always had results. I feel comfortable doing this and teach it to my students. Some dont and are fast not shuffle steering. What do you do?
944 turbo guy
944 turbo guy
| KC | 12-05-2004 12:02 PM |
Depends on the motion ratio of the steering. If you can turn the wheel and not get too crossed up, then by all means both hands on the wheel in the turn.
I'm a shuffler most of the time (for auto-x) tho... since it requres more turning than just pointing into a turn and holding it there. ;)
--kC
I'm a shuffler most of the time (for auto-x) tho... since it requres more turning than just pointing into a turn and holding it there. ;)
--kC
| mav1c | 12-05-2004 12:16 PM |
With the steering ratio of the WRX I have to shuffle steer. Now it's just habit.
| spongejosh | 12-05-2004 12:20 PM |
i'm dumb. can you explain shuffle steer for me?
josh
josh
| CBRDSpeedfactory | 12-05-2004 12:47 PM |
i dont...
�
�
i hate it lol.... i had someone trying to tell me to do it before in a street car on an autocross track....uh....he was slower than me....
anyway...when you have a steering rack that goes 3/4 turn to lock...who needs it lol...
im sure myles could give u a nice lesson on it...he's pretty experienced with street cars on the track...i have pure track car experience.
chad b
CBRD
ps hey myles maybe we could teach some guys this spring when we do our own RCE CBRD enthusiasts drivers day at summit point... any takers?
anyway...when you have a steering rack that goes 3/4 turn to lock...who needs it lol...
im sure myles could give u a nice lesson on it...he's pretty experienced with street cars on the track...i have pure track car experience.
chad b
CBRD
ps hey myles maybe we could teach some guys this spring when we do our own RCE CBRD enthusiasts drivers day at summit point... any takers?
| spongejosh | 12-05-2004 01:22 PM |
nevermind, i found it. and i don't do it on the track. i cross my arms all up like a pretzel.
skip barber says
"Shuffle Steering
Our preferred method of adding and reducing steering is called shuffle steering. If you're willing to devote the effort to practice this technique the result should be more precise steering, more accurate skid control and a generally calmer driving environment.
Here's how it works. For a left turn, the right hand moves to the bottom of the steering wheel then pushes the wheel up a full half turn. This places the right hand at the top of the wheel. Meanwhile, the left hand has mirrored this movement and slid up to meet the right. The left hand now pulls the wheel down through another full half turn, while the right slides down the wheel rim so both hands meet at the bottom."
skip barber says
"Shuffle Steering
Our preferred method of adding and reducing steering is called shuffle steering. If you're willing to devote the effort to practice this technique the result should be more precise steering, more accurate skid control and a generally calmer driving environment.
Here's how it works. For a left turn, the right hand moves to the bottom of the steering wheel then pushes the wheel up a full half turn. This places the right hand at the top of the wheel. Meanwhile, the left hand has mirrored this movement and slid up to meet the right. The left hand now pulls the wheel down through another full half turn, while the right slides down the wheel rim so both hands meet at the bottom."
| Evil STI | 12-05-2004 01:34 PM |
I found that it is a hard habit to break as I usually do it when I'm casually driving. When driving aggressively, it's easier to retain consistent control with both hands on the steering wheel and set yourself up for the proper hand position before entering a turn.
| Patrick L | 12-05-2004 01:49 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Depends on the motion ratio of the steering. If you can turn the wheel and not get too crossed up, then by all means both hands on the wheel in the turn.
I'm a shuffler most of the time (for auto-x) tho... since it requres more turning than just pointing into a turn and holding it there. ;)
--kC[/QUOTE]
I'm with you. It's like difference between a power-assisted T2 Cadillac and a dicey little quick-ratio formula car allow for different steering styles.
We were just talking about this on another forum cause of a friend who shuffle steers in a Miata and had some great incar video of him at Barber Motorsports Park.
I'm a shuffler most of the time (for auto-x) tho... since it requres more turning than just pointing into a turn and holding it there. ;)
--kC[/QUOTE]
I'm with you. It's like difference between a power-assisted T2 Cadillac and a dicey little quick-ratio formula car allow for different steering styles.
We were just talking about this on another forum cause of a friend who shuffle steers in a Miata and had some great incar video of him at Barber Motorsports Park.
| mykrrrr | 12-05-2004 02:03 PM |
I never knew it was called shuffle steering. I'm w/KC & T_D, I just do what feels right @ a certain section of an autoX.
I also do the same thing w/LFB. :D
-mykr.
I also do the same thing w/LFB. :D
-mykr.
| rkkwan | 12-05-2004 03:40 PM |
It's called "Pig Intestine Steering" in Chinese. Not hard to see why.
Anyways, with the new LGT which has faster steering, no need to do it on a road course track. Auto-x is a different story, of course.
Anyways, with the new LGT which has faster steering, no need to do it on a road course track. Auto-x is a different story, of course.
| ChrisDP | 12-05-2004 03:55 PM |
I tend to shuffle-steer on track and in turnarounds on autox courses. Steering inputs are generally slower for both, while I usually leave my hands in one place so I don't get them tangled up during quick maneuvers or get lost on the steering wheel
| powerslide23 | 12-05-2004 04:01 PM |
Always has and always will.
| majmun | 12-05-2004 06:51 PM |
I've used this technique since I got my U.K. driver's license. You HAVE to shuffle steer to pass the test over there and it's stuck with me.
| MattDell | 12-05-2004 07:07 PM |
I'm an arm-over-arm steerer most of the time. Sometimes I surprise myself and shuffle.
-Matt
-Matt
| KC | 12-05-2004 07:28 PM |
Here's a quick video of 1/4 of one of my runs from last year showing how I shuffle steer. :)
RIght Click... save as.
[url]http://www.rallydecals.com/kcpics/inside1.avi[/url]
--kC
RIght Click... save as.
[url]http://www.rallydecals.com/kcpics/inside1.avi[/url]
--kC
| turboICE | 12-05-2004 07:52 PM |
Yes and no. I do what amounts to a shuffle when the turn requires it like a hairpin. However all leverage is always with the same hand as the turn pulling down, I never push the wheel up with the off hand. The leverage of pulling down requires less effort than pushing up - anything longer than a sprint and this is an important point to reduce driver fatigue. On a short course with a hairpin or a lot of shuffle turns - pushing up can cause quite a bit of fatigue after about 30 minutes.
| johnfelstead | 12-05-2004 08:55 PM |
i avoid shuffle steering at all costs, as soon as you slide your hand along the steering wheel you are losing some precision and feel from the tyres. Driving quickly is all about exploiting the tyres at their max slip angle, you have to feel what they are doing constantly.
The way you use your hands and forearms has a big effect on feel, you should never push the wheel, you should always pull. For right hand corners you should use right arm/hand to pull the steering down and round, relaxing your left arm, for left hand corners steer with your left hand/arm and relax your right. Your forearm is designed to be sensitive to pull, but has very little control and sensitivity to push.
LOL didnt even read the post before me before i wrote that. :D
The way you use your hands and forearms has a big effect on feel, you should never push the wheel, you should always pull. For right hand corners you should use right arm/hand to pull the steering down and round, relaxing your left arm, for left hand corners steer with your left hand/arm and relax your right. Your forearm is designed to be sensitive to pull, but has very little control and sensitivity to push.
LOL didnt even read the post before me before i wrote that. :D
| makofoto | 12-05-2004 09:43 PM |
Of course I don't think John drives many AX's ... :-)
I took the Evo Phase 2 School today ... the two multiple National Champ instructors say they move their hands around ... as do I, even with my fast RevLab steering rack ... :-(
oops ... thread was asking RoadRacers ... :p
I took the Evo Phase 2 School today ... the two multiple National Champ instructors say they move their hands around ... as do I, even with my fast RevLab steering rack ... :-(
oops ... thread was asking RoadRacers ... :p
| Capt Crunch | 12-05-2004 09:47 PM |
I do it. Myles did it when he gave me a ride sideways through wet leaves in his old WRX. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. Besides, if I didn't do it I would only be able to make 20 degree turns. :)
| syntrix | 12-05-2004 09:49 PM |
I'm a shuffler.
| BHawk | 12-05-2004 09:55 PM |
John is a pretty smart guy. I think what he is saying makes alot of sense. Personally I am very much for using both hands as much as possible. Someone once mentioned that you decrease your sensory input coming from the wheel when steering one handed. Also, I definately agree with what he is saying about you lose some of the information that the wheel is feeding you when you slide your hands. With all that being said every once in a while it becomes neccesary to shuffle, but I try to avoid it.
| turboICE | 12-05-2004 10:57 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]LOL didnt even read the post before me before i wrote that. :D[/QUOTE]Not like you were duplicating the reason, just the conclusion. Besides the points (sensory input) being valid as an additional consideration that I neglected, it makes the pull technique as import in sprints as in enduros. I couldn't even imagine shuffling at Watkins for an hour.
Auto-x is a completely different situation and I believe I would be better at it if I could quickly shuffle.
Auto-x is a completely different situation and I believe I would be better at it if I could quickly shuffle.
| shoracer | 12-05-2004 11:16 PM |
You can drive another way???
I had shuffle steered my whole life, street, track and off road.
I had shuffle steered my whole life, street, track and off road.
| syntrix | 12-05-2004 11:29 PM |
yah, you don't want to be crossed up if you have to do any steering inputs either way.
Unless you are into that, then you could mount a rotating door knob to the steering wheel... but that might be illegal in most states. Check your local codes yo!
Unless you are into that, then you could mount a rotating door knob to the steering wheel... but that might be illegal in most states. Check your local codes yo!
| MattSTi | 12-05-2004 11:56 PM |
I wouldn't call myself a "road racer", but i've done a few track days at Summit Point. I have always been comfortable with shuffle steering, and didn't think that there was anything wrong with it until one of the instructors told me to try to do more preset steering. I have tried to break the habit, but I seem to always go back to shuffle steering.
| RaceComp Engineering | 12-06-2004 04:33 AM |
[QUOTE=CBRD]i hate it lol.... i had someone trying to tell me to do it before in a street car on an autocross track....uh....he was slower than me....
anyway...when you have a steering rack that goes 3/4 turn to lock...who needs it lol...
im sure myles could give u a nice lesson on it...he's pretty experienced with street cars on the track...i have pure track car experience.
chad b
CBRD
ps hey myles maybe we could teach some guys this spring when we do our own RCE CBRD enthusiasts drivers day at summit point... any takers?[/QUOTE]
Chad, yes that event needs to happen soon. :D
I think yes, for street cars on the track in slow speed corners with a good amount of power,..yes, you need to be prepared for what is gonna be some drama as you try to put down some serious power to the rear wheels. As that K27 kicks in,, as I turn in to turn 6 at Summit Point, I commit to full throttle from there to turn 10, from mid morning on. I cant "ride the bull " there, as it WILL swap ends.
(have to submit this before computer locks up) small laptop @ home.
944 turbo guy
anyway...when you have a steering rack that goes 3/4 turn to lock...who needs it lol...
im sure myles could give u a nice lesson on it...he's pretty experienced with street cars on the track...i have pure track car experience.
chad b
CBRD
ps hey myles maybe we could teach some guys this spring when we do our own RCE CBRD enthusiasts drivers day at summit point... any takers?[/QUOTE]
Chad, yes that event needs to happen soon. :D
I think yes, for street cars on the track in slow speed corners with a good amount of power,..yes, you need to be prepared for what is gonna be some drama as you try to put down some serious power to the rear wheels. As that K27 kicks in,, as I turn in to turn 6 at Summit Point, I commit to full throttle from there to turn 10, from mid morning on. I cant "ride the bull " there, as it WILL swap ends.
(have to submit this before computer locks up) small laptop @ home.
944 turbo guy
| RaceComp Engineering | 12-06-2004 04:44 AM |
BUT for medium speed corners, NO !!..I dont shuffle steer,...As I turn in for turn 10 at Road Atlanta and go flat up the hill out of 11 and under the bridge and heading for turn 12 in the Panoz cars on the slightly wet track ,.I am commited and not shuffling thats for sure , as the car always slides thru 12 past start finish line. YET turning in for 8 and 9 are absolute correction turns, that a shuffle would have you writing a nice check for the damages.......
Its relative. A high horsepower car that starts life as a racecar will have a fast rack plenty of caster and every input makes it to the front wheels. My old 2.5 RS, had to driven like a bull to get a good time out of it.
So , yes I agree with JOHN (Nurb JOHN) I call him, as he has driven the NURB a gazillion times,....... :D ...on that track with all those medium to hugh speed corners, in a Subaru, there is no way I would shuffle,..but some slow speed corners, cann catch the best of us out trying to put that power down , with a slow rack.
In a kart,..there is no time to shuffle and the steering is yesterday fast,....I found myself at JIM HALL karting school making corrections faster than ever at 60mph in turn 3 on the afternoon sand !!!! But in an Atlantic car with a yesterday fast ratio, I couldnt see anyone ( no space to do it either) shuffling.
Myles Williams
944 turbo guy
Its relative. A high horsepower car that starts life as a racecar will have a fast rack plenty of caster and every input makes it to the front wheels. My old 2.5 RS, had to driven like a bull to get a good time out of it.
So , yes I agree with JOHN (Nurb JOHN) I call him, as he has driven the NURB a gazillion times,....... :D ...on that track with all those medium to hugh speed corners, in a Subaru, there is no way I would shuffle,..but some slow speed corners, cann catch the best of us out trying to put that power down , with a slow rack.
In a kart,..there is no time to shuffle and the steering is yesterday fast,....I found myself at JIM HALL karting school making corrections faster than ever at 60mph in turn 3 on the afternoon sand !!!! But in an Atlantic car with a yesterday fast ratio, I couldnt see anyone ( no space to do it either) shuffling.
Myles Williams
944 turbo guy
| RaceComp Engineering | 12-06-2004 04:47 AM |
Students
�
�
I think, that when teaching people who have not driven on a track before, who start out in slow cars,....it works, as they need some reference for where to keep there hands. There are places where I know I am going to slide, and if hand placement isnt correct, you have to do some fast hand stuff and it takes too much time ( AT LOW SPEEDS )..............in a snap dragon, tail happy, snap oversteered designed WRX,..yuo better be fast and esp all the "rear bar only guys"..............but thats another thread right? :lol:
ok, I'm done.
944 turbo guy
ok, I'm done.
944 turbo guy
| RaceComp Engineering | 12-06-2004 04:52 AM |
[QUOTE=Capt Crunch]I do it. Myles did it when he gave me a ride sideways through wet leaves in his old WRX. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. Besides, if I didn't do it I would only be able to make 20 degree turns. :)[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAaaaaaaaa,..BEN,.I totally forgot about that ride...........!!!
OMG,..that was crazy that day,.what was I thinking about. PHEWWWWW !!
Yes, its good some places and not other places. But its good to explore as you grow as a driver. As the cars get faster and more purpose built, less shuffling.
944 turbo guy
BEN , thanks for reminding me of that..........LOFL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAaaaaaaaa,..BEN,.I totally forgot about that ride...........!!!
OMG,..that was crazy that day,.what was I thinking about. PHEWWWWW !!
Yes, its good some places and not other places. But its good to explore as you grow as a driver. As the cars get faster and more purpose built, less shuffling.
944 turbo guy
BEN , thanks for reminding me of that..........LOFL
| Homemade WRX | 12-06-2004 09:39 AM |
I shuffle steer unless I'm in the FSAE car
| Draken | 12-06-2004 09:41 AM |
I am a shuffler. I also learned from in car video that i tend to hold the steering wheel with the tips of my fingers, usualy forefinger and middle finger and thumb.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| skuttledude | 12-06-2004 09:51 AM |
I rarely ever shuffle steer unless I really have to like in a large drift, or a slow tight turn
The schools I've been to have been 50-50 on teaching the shuffle.
On the road and on the track I keep both hands on pretty much the same place (no shuffle) and has remained a habit. Like some others here, I believe that you do lose "the feel and control" if and when you do the shuffle however brief it may be.
[url]http://www.skuttle.com/Autoxoct/DavisDriftExter.wmv[/url]
This small 5.7MB vid shows a small drift I did that happened to go a little further than expected. I had to shuffle a little bit to revcover the near full lock.
[url]http://skuttle.com/Midohio/DavisInCar.wmv[/url]
This video (beware 32MB) shows me blasting thru Mid-Ohio raceway. It should show me not using the shuffle, can't remember 100%. Sorry for the bad camera angle (damn mirror).
Good Thread!
Davis
The schools I've been to have been 50-50 on teaching the shuffle.
On the road and on the track I keep both hands on pretty much the same place (no shuffle) and has remained a habit. Like some others here, I believe that you do lose "the feel and control" if and when you do the shuffle however brief it may be.
[url]http://www.skuttle.com/Autoxoct/DavisDriftExter.wmv[/url]
This small 5.7MB vid shows a small drift I did that happened to go a little further than expected. I had to shuffle a little bit to revcover the near full lock.
[url]http://skuttle.com/Midohio/DavisInCar.wmv[/url]
This video (beware 32MB) shows me blasting thru Mid-Ohio raceway. It should show me not using the shuffle, can't remember 100%. Sorry for the bad camera angle (damn mirror).
Good Thread!
Davis
| SilverSpool | 12-06-2004 10:29 AM |
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers]I had to shuffle a little bit to revcover the near full lock.[/QUOTE]
Shuffle steering isn't steering like a madman to keep control of your car, and in that video, it shows that your arms are crossing, thats not shuffle steering
Shuffle steering isn't steering like a madman to keep control of your car, and in that video, it shows that your arms are crossing, thats not shuffle steering
| KC | 12-06-2004 10:34 AM |
[QUOTE]This small 5.7MB vid shows a small drift I did that happened to go a little further than expected. I had to shuffle a little bit to revcover the near full lock.[/QUOTE]
:eek: Wow... your hands are flying everywhere! :D The only times my hands ever move more than a 1/2 inch from the wheel is when I have to shift, even when I'm driftin'. I got out of the habit a long time ago from crossing my arms over. It just works for me... but like i said... if you CAN keep from crossing over your arms, by all means... 2 hands on the wheel... most of the turns in my video, I would have had my arms totally crossed over.
Looks like there's no one right or wrong way to turn.
:eek: Wow... your hands are flying everywhere! :D The only times my hands ever move more than a 1/2 inch from the wheel is when I have to shift, even when I'm driftin'. I got out of the habit a long time ago from crossing my arms over. It just works for me... but like i said... if you CAN keep from crossing over your arms, by all means... 2 hands on the wheel... most of the turns in my video, I would have had my arms totally crossed over.
Looks like there's no one right or wrong way to turn.
| skuttledude | 12-06-2004 11:09 AM |
[QUOTE=SilverSpool]Shuffle steering isn't steering like a madman to keep control of your car, and in that video, it shows that your arms are crossing, thats not shuffle steering[/QUOTE]
Madman yes, heheh
true true, that was maybe a little extreme.
99% of the time I don't cross my arms (bad bad)
;)
Madman yes, heheh
true true, that was maybe a little extreme.
99% of the time I don't cross my arms (bad bad)
;)
| johnfelstead | 12-06-2004 11:21 AM |
This is another reason i dont shuffle [URL=http://www.johnfelstead.co.uk/videos/Oultonquiz.wmv]Trail Braking induced power oversteer video[/URL] you cant react quickly enough when you shuffle when you are playing with a car in this kind of way.
| skuttledude | 12-06-2004 11:24 AM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]This is another reason i dont shuffle [URL=http://www.johnfelstead.co.uk/videos/Oultonquiz.wmv]Trail Braking induced power oversteer video[/URL] you cant react quickly enough when you shuffle when you are playing with a car in this kind of way.[/QUOTE]
As usual..nice reactions!
As usual..nice reactions!
| bluelinescooby | 12-06-2004 12:27 PM |
I'd never really done it till I went through EVOC.... they hammered it into me there. Now I do it all the time.
| kfoote | 12-06-2004 01:59 PM |
I am tall and have long legs, so there are saome cars that I have to shuffle steer in because my knees get in the way. I don't like to, but there are occasions where I have to.
| KC | 12-06-2004 02:09 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]This is another reason i dont shuffle [URL=http://www.johnfelstead.co.uk/videos/Oultonquiz.wmv]Trail Braking induced power oversteer video[/URL] you cant react quickly enough when you shuffle when you are playing with a car in this kind of way.[/QUOTE]
John... What's going on with the left hand when he goes opposite? The seats blocking it. Is he shifting? His right hand is all the way over and the left hand is no where to be seen. So I would say he's got one hand completely removed from the steering wheel... what's the concensus on fully removing a hand while turning (and not shifting?)
John... What's going on with the left hand when he goes opposite? The seats blocking it. Is he shifting? His right hand is all the way over and the left hand is no where to be seen. So I would say he's got one hand completely removed from the steering wheel... what's the concensus on fully removing a hand while turning (and not shifting?)
| Draken | 12-06-2004 02:26 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]This is another reason i dont shuffle [URL=http://www.johnfelstead.co.uk/videos/Oultonquiz.wmv]Trail Braking induced power oversteer video[/URL] you cant react quickly enough when you shuffle when you are playing with a car in this kind of way.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. But then again, I learned to race in a fairly aggresivley setup Yugo (no laughing lease) which has a typical Italian driving position. I have long legs and shorts arms, so it was just impossible for me to properly move my hands over the top of the bus-style steering wheel. I learned to race shuffling. While this car didn't have power induce oversteer, it was setup to have the usual slow speed entry looseness associated with fwd autocross cars. I find my shuffling technique to work quite well on my STi, which can induce oversteer on throttle quite easily, eve with the 275 Hoosiers.
Chris H.
I disagree. But then again, I learned to race in a fairly aggresivley setup Yugo (no laughing lease) which has a typical Italian driving position. I have long legs and shorts arms, so it was just impossible for me to properly move my hands over the top of the bus-style steering wheel. I learned to race shuffling. While this car didn't have power induce oversteer, it was setup to have the usual slow speed entry looseness associated with fwd autocross cars. I find my shuffling technique to work quite well on my STi, which can induce oversteer on throttle quite easily, eve with the 275 Hoosiers.
Chris H.
| Jack | 12-06-2004 03:10 PM |
I came up in driving when classroom instructors taught how to do it both ways but favored shuffle steering. I learned this and stuck with it. When I started instructing, I taught to "pre-position" your hands before a corner. This way, you're coming into a corner ready to pull the wheel so you come through with your hands near 3 and 9. So, in other words, for a left hander, you put your left hand at 12, right at 6 and pull the wheel into the 3 and 9 position. I try to stay just ahead of the corners that I'm entering and don't cross my hands over the center of the wheel ever.
In the last couple of years, I've noticed that the classroom instructors are all teaching non-shuffle steering and I've held my comments with students, not wanting to give them mixed messages. I've also had a veteren racer/instructor ride with me to check myself and my driving (I do that periodically, since I don't drive the track every day). My last ride along instructor commented that I should stop shuffle steering....that my hands were too busy. I've tried, but can't get by having my arms crossed up.
I guess if I ever get into a formula car, I'll be all set.....as most don't have the room to physically cross up....you must shuffle steer or go off the corner.
jack
In the last couple of years, I've noticed that the classroom instructors are all teaching non-shuffle steering and I've held my comments with students, not wanting to give them mixed messages. I've also had a veteren racer/instructor ride with me to check myself and my driving (I do that periodically, since I don't drive the track every day). My last ride along instructor commented that I should stop shuffle steering....that my hands were too busy. I've tried, but can't get by having my arms crossed up.
I guess if I ever get into a formula car, I'll be all set.....as most don't have the room to physically cross up....you must shuffle steer or go off the corner.
jack
| RyanC | 12-06-2004 03:42 PM |
I tend to follow Jack's example, and preposition my hands before the turn. Shuffling does come into play a bit if the turn is overly tight but I have gotten yelled at by a couple different instructors so I try not to shuffle whenever possible.
| GQ | 12-06-2004 05:05 PM |
I shuffle steer.
| Patrick L | 12-06-2004 06:17 PM |
Here is a good video of a very lucky friend of mine from Tulsa who went to Barber Motorsports Park in his Miata, shufflen away.
[URL=http://homepage.mac.com/izoomtoo/carstuff/iMovieTheater17.html]Here[/URL]
[URL=http://homepage.mac.com/izoomtoo/carstuff/iMovieTheater17.html]Here[/URL]
| RaceComp Engineering | 12-06-2004 06:23 PM |
I have video of me in a Panoz car at Road Atlanta, if anyone knows who can transfer it to a file for hosting, I can post it.
I dont shuffle on big curves, just slow speed, "turn in" curves.
944 turbo guy
I dont shuffle on big curves, just slow speed, "turn in" curves.
944 turbo guy
| kwak | 12-06-2004 07:01 PM |
I shuffle steer. But as others have noted - only in sharp turns. I like to have "quiet hands". I personally just don't like my hands past 90 degrees on the wheel because I don't feel like I have good control then. Years ago I rode with a racer who did not move his hands at all. When the wheel was at 180 degrees with arms crossed touching each other :eek: I couldn't imagine how he could still be in control.
It also depends on the position of the steering wheel. Can I reach all parts of it, do my knees hit, etc.
It also depends on the position of the steering wheel. Can I reach all parts of it, do my knees hit, etc.
| johnfelstead | 12-06-2004 07:49 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]John... What's going on with the left hand when he goes opposite? The seats blocking it. Is he shifting? His right hand is all the way over and the left hand is no where to be seen. So I would say he's got one hand completely removed from the steering wheel... what's the concensus on fully removing a hand while turning (and not shifting?)[/QUOTE]
He? Thats me. :)
When you have to steer that fast and far you remove the hand that would restrict movement off the steering wheel and hold it in a position ready to go back on when posible. You need a diferent technique when using oposite lock, the need for feel from the front tyres is far less important than speed of reaction and throttle/brake control, as you are steering using the rear tyres, not the fronts, the front tyres have very little load on them at that moment. As soon as you take the lock off and the car starts to use the front tyres again you need your unused hand back on the steering wheel in the position it was at when you released it.
There is no way you could shuffle steer a steering wheel as fast and as far as i turn the steering in the first of those three clips, it would be very hard not to over compensate and get a tankslapper going.
Thats Oulton Park race circuit, lodge corner if you are interested, its a bit of a car killer as the exit is off camber and downhill.
He? Thats me. :)
When you have to steer that fast and far you remove the hand that would restrict movement off the steering wheel and hold it in a position ready to go back on when posible. You need a diferent technique when using oposite lock, the need for feel from the front tyres is far less important than speed of reaction and throttle/brake control, as you are steering using the rear tyres, not the fronts, the front tyres have very little load on them at that moment. As soon as you take the lock off and the car starts to use the front tyres again you need your unused hand back on the steering wheel in the position it was at when you released it.
There is no way you could shuffle steer a steering wheel as fast and as far as i turn the steering in the first of those three clips, it would be very hard not to over compensate and get a tankslapper going.
Thats Oulton Park race circuit, lodge corner if you are interested, its a bit of a car killer as the exit is off camber and downhill.
| GarySheehan | 12-06-2004 11:12 PM |
I don't shuffle steer at all. Keeping both hands at 3 and 9 give you a consistent reference at all times. I'm comfortable touching elbows together.
When things get REALLY sideways, the most I'll do is take one hand off the wheel (the hand that is on the side I'm sliding towards) to get maximum opposite lock, then yank it right back to center and put my other hand back on, exactly like John describes. I wish I had some in-car of THAT because I bet it looks pretty funny. I just tend to let my "off" hand hang in the air halfway between the steering wheel and my helmet until it's time to put it back to work.
Here's the footbox video at Sears Point again. Both hands always at 3 and 9, even in the hairpins.
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv[/url]
On this video the car gets pretty sideways, but I keep both hands on the wheel because it's a lazy slide. It happens about 37 seconds in...
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/2003%20USTCC%20California%20Speedway%20Demo%202.wmv[/url]
And this video from when I was driving that crazy a$$ 340hp Flyin Miata with a spool differential, Goodyear slicks and a power steering rack disconnected from the power steering pump! Takes a little while to download.
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/vegas_fast_lap.mov[/url]
You can't take your hands off the wheel to make corrections that fast.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
When things get REALLY sideways, the most I'll do is take one hand off the wheel (the hand that is on the side I'm sliding towards) to get maximum opposite lock, then yank it right back to center and put my other hand back on, exactly like John describes. I wish I had some in-car of THAT because I bet it looks pretty funny. I just tend to let my "off" hand hang in the air halfway between the steering wheel and my helmet until it's time to put it back to work.
Here's the footbox video at Sears Point again. Both hands always at 3 and 9, even in the hairpins.
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/Footbox%20Small.wmv[/url]
On this video the car gets pretty sideways, but I keep both hands on the wheel because it's a lazy slide. It happens about 37 seconds in...
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/2003%20USTCC%20California%20Speedway%20Demo%202.wmv[/url]
And this video from when I was driving that crazy a$$ 340hp Flyin Miata with a spool differential, Goodyear slicks and a power steering rack disconnected from the power steering pump! Takes a little while to download.
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/vegas_fast_lap.mov[/url]
You can't take your hands off the wheel to make corrections that fast.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
| makofoto | 12-07-2004 12:20 AM |
WOW ... that Miata footage is wonderful ... much more energy then then usual Track Video !!! ;-) Excellent example of why not Shuffle Steer on a track. ;-)
| garface | 12-07-2004 12:36 AM |
Nice vids. What type of mods are you allowed to do to the WRX? Do you have a list of what's done to it somewhere? Also what is your race weight and power, or at least what was it in that vid? 5 speed I assume? Thanks.
| kwak | 12-07-2004 02:44 AM |
Nice videos Gary.
There is a list of mods on Gary's website, [URL=http://www.teamsmr.com/html/car.html]http://www.teamsmr.com/html/car.html[/URL]
It mentions he has a quick steering rack -- making it a [B]lot[/B] easier to not have to shuffle. In the Sears Point hairpins the wheel only goes a quarter turn. Sure is nice when racing mods are available.
Did anyone watch the SCCA Runoffs T2 race, specifically the in-car from the Cadillac? Serious shuffle steering [B]required[/B] there! :eek:
Gotta be adaptable to whatever car you're driving.
There is a list of mods on Gary's website, [URL=http://www.teamsmr.com/html/car.html]http://www.teamsmr.com/html/car.html[/URL]
It mentions he has a quick steering rack -- making it a [B]lot[/B] easier to not have to shuffle. In the Sears Point hairpins the wheel only goes a quarter turn. Sure is nice when racing mods are available.
Did anyone watch the SCCA Runoffs T2 race, specifically the in-car from the Cadillac? Serious shuffle steering [B]required[/B] there! :eek:
Gotta be adaptable to whatever car you're driving.
| Apex Rex | 12-07-2004 04:01 AM |
In Auto-X, I was taught using shuffle steering and pre-loading my hands for the upcoming corners. This helps out a lot for the slow steering rack that the stock WRX has, and I mainly use it where more steering input is required. If Im in a slalom, I keep my hands at 3 and 9, and use the throttle to get the rear of the car around quicker if I need to. (Still working on trying to figure out the best way to take slaloms....)
Im comfortable shuffle steering on an Auto-X course, I do not believe I would use it often on a track where there are more high speed corners.
~Apex
Im comfortable shuffle steering on an Auto-X course, I do not believe I would use it often on a track where there are more high speed corners.
~Apex
| johnfelstead | 12-07-2004 06:36 AM |
Your WRX always sounds fantastic Gary, great driving. :)
| GarySheehan | 12-07-2004 11:20 AM |
Thanks for the compliments, guys! The Miata video was from the 2003 Open Track Challenge. That car was an absolute beast to drive. Twitchy as hell but a monster in a straight line.
Here's another brief clip of that Miata at Buttonwillow. I've nicknamed it "Hackasaurus".
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/buttonwillow_datsun_short.mov[/url]
The RevLabs rack was on the WRX race car for 1 season. I drove the WRX with stock steering rack and stock steering wheel for 2 seasons and did not shuffle steer.
I'm not out to change anyone's technique and I don't think that's the reason for this thread. I'm just commenting on my experience and why I don't shuffle steer or teach shuffle steer.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Here's another brief clip of that Miata at Buttonwillow. I've nicknamed it "Hackasaurus".
[url]http://www.teamsmr.com/movies/buttonwillow_datsun_short.mov[/url]
The RevLabs rack was on the WRX race car for 1 season. I drove the WRX with stock steering rack and stock steering wheel for 2 seasons and did not shuffle steer.
I'm not out to change anyone's technique and I don't think that's the reason for this thread. I'm just commenting on my experience and why I don't shuffle steer or teach shuffle steer.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| turboICE | 12-07-2004 11:30 AM |
I think we should ask a mod to add a poll to the thread. Or start a poll thread and merge them.
Full shuffle, Full contact and maybe two intermediate points.
Gary, what are have your impressions changed regarding the revlab rack from your prior views? I have been considering it for the STi.
Full shuffle, Full contact and maybe two intermediate points.
Gary, what are have your impressions changed regarding the revlab rack from your prior views? I have been considering it for the STi.
| GarySheehan | 12-07-2004 12:23 PM |
My impressions of the RevLab rack have always been positive. It made it easier to drive the race car as I could control the car with less steering input.
What did you mean regarding my impressions changing?
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
What did you mean regarding my impressions changing?
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| turboICE | 12-07-2004 01:23 PM |
I knew they had been positive earlier, with more time I was just curious if they had changed or not. It sounds as if they have not - consistent impressions over time are good feedback to have. Especially if for instance you were to have found any wear issues as time passed. Thanks for the response.
Oh, I see, I started with one thought and changed midtyping if you ignore the extaneous "what are" at the beginning the question will make more sense.
Oh, I see, I started with one thought and changed midtyping if you ignore the extaneous "what are" at the beginning the question will make more sense.
| GarySheehan | 12-07-2004 02:02 PM |
The RevLabs rack was flawless the entire season. No noticeable wear or freeplay whatsoever.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Georgethefierce | 12-07-2004 02:22 PM |
I shuffle and get yelled at by my instructors for doing so.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét