| Easy Rider | 10-24-2006 06:15 PM |
I agree - Travis needs more work on pace notes (don't we all) - therefore he should come to Canada next year for all our events. :-)
| rallynutdon | 10-24-2006 06:18 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15730136] No one is going to go flat out without proper pace notes. I don't know why they can't allow it here? :huh:
[/QUOTE]
How many stage rallies have you attended, or have you been on the organizing committee of. And how many years have you been doing this for the sport of stage rallying?
[/QUOTE]
How many stage rallies have you attended, or have you been on the organizing committee of. And how many years have you been doing this for the sport of stage rallying?
| akuhner | 10-24-2006 07:11 PM |
Are people forgetting that Patric Richard ran the PWRC a few years ago and had a really tough time of it? Richard was the pinnacle of speed in North America the last few years, someone Travis couldn't keep up with (he needed more seat time) and the only advantage Travis has over him will be a bigger budget and better support. Pat, how did your times measure up when you were in the groove?
Does anyone else watch the PWRC coverage? It's really a survival series, the gaps are usually measured in minutes by the end of an event. It's a rough time out there for the talented and one-shots alike!
Does anyone else watch the PWRC coverage? It's really a survival series, the gaps are usually measured in minutes by the end of an event. It's a rough time out there for the talented and one-shots alike!
| Dutch Scooby lover | 10-24-2006 10:08 PM |
Pastrana is a good driver, but what kind of experience has he got Rallywise??
(I am from Europe, and dont know much about American rallying , or their locations)
The WRC has many different settings (Snow in Finland, narrow tarmac in Germany & Corsica, and lots more)
I believe most American rallies are on sand/gravel, and maybe ,because of this Pastrana has the disadvantage of being a onesided driver
Look at Gigi Galli or Gilles Panizzi, both great tarmac specialists, but nothing special on gravel or snow, and thats why they will never be anything more then midcard in WRC.
It takes a great allrounder to be in the top of WRC, and tho i hate the guy, Loeb has proven himself to be that, like Gronholm.
(I am from Europe, and dont know much about American rallying , or their locations)
The WRC has many different settings (Snow in Finland, narrow tarmac in Germany & Corsica, and lots more)
I believe most American rallies are on sand/gravel, and maybe ,because of this Pastrana has the disadvantage of being a onesided driver
Look at Gigi Galli or Gilles Panizzi, both great tarmac specialists, but nothing special on gravel or snow, and thats why they will never be anything more then midcard in WRC.
It takes a great allrounder to be in the top of WRC, and tho i hate the guy, Loeb has proven himself to be that, like Gronholm.
| nKoan | 10-24-2006 10:14 PM |
One the Rally America calendar, there is one snow event Sno*Drift. Other then that, its all gravel.
I think you are right. Pastrana probably doesn't have much competitive tarmac experience, because there aren't any competitive tarmac stage rallies here in the US (as far as I know). I think he's good enough to be given a spot, but I wouldnt' be suprised if he just sits midpack for a while and hopefully he's given enough time in the sport to grow to the point where he can become competitive for podiums.
I think you are right. Pastrana probably doesn't have much competitive tarmac experience, because there aren't any competitive tarmac stage rallies here in the US (as far as I know). I think he's good enough to be given a spot, but I wouldnt' be suprised if he just sits midpack for a while and hopefully he's given enough time in the sport to grow to the point where he can become competitive for podiums.
| Dutch Scooby lover | 10-24-2006 10:23 PM |
Same problem as we are facing over here.
We only have tarmac rallies, with maybe 1 or 2 stages with a bit of gravel.
Fighting an uphill battle.
WRC is so costly a driver like Pastrana who does goed on gravel doesnt GET the time he needs to adjust to other surfaces, because the next , more allround rider is already waiting to step in at the first sign of failure.
We only have tarmac rallies, with maybe 1 or 2 stages with a bit of gravel.
Fighting an uphill battle.
WRC is so costly a driver like Pastrana who does goed on gravel doesnt GET the time he needs to adjust to other surfaces, because the next , more allround rider is already waiting to step in at the first sign of failure.
| OBShahn | 10-24-2006 10:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Car #187;15734152]Are people forgetting that Patric Richard ran the PWRC a few years ago and had a really tough time of it? Richard was the pinnacle of speed in North America the last few years, someone Travis couldn't keep up with (he needed more seat time) and the only advantage Travis has over him will be a bigger budget and better support. Pat, how did your times measure up when you were in the groove?
Does anyone else watch the PWRC coverage? It's really a survival series, the gaps are usually measured in minutes by the end of an event. It's a rough time out there for the talented and one-shots alike![/QUOTE]
But I think Pat would/will be the first to tell you that had they had some more money they would have finished a lot more and a lot higher up...
The only thing keeping pat from coming out and running in the same level gear as travis is sanity (we all know Pat could come out and run the same spec on his own dime, he is just smart enough not to piss away his own money).
Does anyone else watch the PWRC coverage? It's really a survival series, the gaps are usually measured in minutes by the end of an event. It's a rough time out there for the talented and one-shots alike![/QUOTE]
But I think Pat would/will be the first to tell you that had they had some more money they would have finished a lot more and a lot higher up...
The only thing keeping pat from coming out and running in the same level gear as travis is sanity (we all know Pat could come out and run the same spec on his own dime, he is just smart enough not to piss away his own money).
| Evo3Codriver | 10-25-2006 12:16 AM |
Tall Pines & 2 words for Travis
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[QUOTE=Doug Woods;15074827]I believe that Tall Pines will run the same format as last year. One notes familiarization pass.
From what I saw and heard (as a Steward), the integrated notes/route book worked quite well. It is in some ways much simpler since you only have to deal with one book instead of two separate books (route and notes).
[/QUOTE]
Same format as last year.
I disliked the intergrated notes/routebook. Heard the same thing from other experienced codrivers. First, too much info on a page meant crossing out a lot of nonrelevant tulip instructions by those just wanting to read the edited stagenotes. Second, if you were to follow the book, you had to edit the stages run multiple times for each time it was run which meant a lot more late night editing work for codrivers and also more chance for copying errors. With seperate books, you just find the stage you are about to run in the stagenote book and put away the routebook, whats so hard about that?
On the positive side, the notes were very uniform, much like Jemba and vastly better than what was provided previously by the Tall Pines.
Christian, you'll want to edit out calling all the '30' distances unless your a speed talker that can breathe thru your ears. Very busy reading with all the crests and jumps and surface changes.
Should be seeing you there in wicked fast Subie.
And back to the regularly scheduled topic, ....
Go Travis!
Dave Shindle
From what I saw and heard (as a Steward), the integrated notes/route book worked quite well. It is in some ways much simpler since you only have to deal with one book instead of two separate books (route and notes).
[/QUOTE]
Same format as last year.
I disliked the intergrated notes/routebook. Heard the same thing from other experienced codrivers. First, too much info on a page meant crossing out a lot of nonrelevant tulip instructions by those just wanting to read the edited stagenotes. Second, if you were to follow the book, you had to edit the stages run multiple times for each time it was run which meant a lot more late night editing work for codrivers and also more chance for copying errors. With seperate books, you just find the stage you are about to run in the stagenote book and put away the routebook, whats so hard about that?
On the positive side, the notes were very uniform, much like Jemba and vastly better than what was provided previously by the Tall Pines.
Christian, you'll want to edit out calling all the '30' distances unless your a speed talker that can breathe thru your ears. Very busy reading with all the crests and jumps and surface changes.
Should be seeing you there in wicked fast Subie.
And back to the regularly scheduled topic, ....
Go Travis!
Dave Shindle
| rallymaniac | 10-25-2006 12:29 AM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon;15733556]How many stage rallies have you attended, or have you been on the organizing committee of. And how many years have you been doing this for the sport of stage rallying?[/QUOTE]
I have attended 1 WRC event in Germany 2003, 2 European Rally Championship rounds and countless local European Rallies. I attended 2 rounds so far here in US and talked to drivers who run here. I also talked to European Drivers who come here. I talked to Janusz Kulig who was here in 2002 in Chattanooga for Cherokee Trials and took 2nd place in Group N EVO VI loosing only by a second to Dave Higgins in an Open Group WRX.
He pointed out that he never felt so much danger as when he was running without his own pace notes in that rally.
If you really think organizer's pace notes are enough, than you obviously are not driving fast. It may be the top of your skills, but it is not fast. Let's not fool ourselves. No one serious (reputable driver) will want to come here and run at 100% because they're not crazy to go flat out on a questionable pace notes.
I certainly wouldn't and drivers that I know and ran LSPR didn't.
I have attended 1 WRC event in Germany 2003, 2 European Rally Championship rounds and countless local European Rallies. I attended 2 rounds so far here in US and talked to drivers who run here. I also talked to European Drivers who come here. I talked to Janusz Kulig who was here in 2002 in Chattanooga for Cherokee Trials and took 2nd place in Group N EVO VI loosing only by a second to Dave Higgins in an Open Group WRX.
He pointed out that he never felt so much danger as when he was running without his own pace notes in that rally.
If you really think organizer's pace notes are enough, than you obviously are not driving fast. It may be the top of your skills, but it is not fast. Let's not fool ourselves. No one serious (reputable driver) will want to come here and run at 100% because they're not crazy to go flat out on a questionable pace notes.
I certainly wouldn't and drivers that I know and ran LSPR didn't.
| Mopho | 10-25-2006 03:08 AM |
[QUOTE=Car #187;15734152] Richard was the pinnacle of speed in North America the last few years, someone Travis couldn't keep up with (he needed more seat time) and the only advantage Travis has over him will be a bigger budget and better support. [/QUOTE]
You really can't compare Travis and Pat. Pat had 7+ years of seat time (and more seat time than anyone else in NA for that matter) when Travis was competing against him in his first year of seat time.
The other advantage Travis has is he started rallying at what, 21(?), and is now 22. Pat started at 28 (which, of course no offense to Pat, was too late in motorsports). By the time Travis is 28, if he keeps going at the rate he is with the continued support he has, he will have way more seat time (and will likely be faster) than Pat.
Quite often top level rally drivers really come into their own at around 30 ( when the lack of self preservation that makes one push the limits and maturity to keep it on the road and ability to strategise begin to meet ) so Travis has plenty of time.
Natural talent will only take you so far, practice makes perfect.
It is entirely a possibility that Travis could get somewhere in WRC given the time frame and his circumstances, especially if he keeps that really awesome co-driver!!! ;)
You really can't compare Travis and Pat. Pat had 7+ years of seat time (and more seat time than anyone else in NA for that matter) when Travis was competing against him in his first year of seat time.
The other advantage Travis has is he started rallying at what, 21(?), and is now 22. Pat started at 28 (which, of course no offense to Pat, was too late in motorsports). By the time Travis is 28, if he keeps going at the rate he is with the continued support he has, he will have way more seat time (and will likely be faster) than Pat.
Quite often top level rally drivers really come into their own at around 30 ( when the lack of self preservation that makes one push the limits and maturity to keep it on the road and ability to strategise begin to meet ) so Travis has plenty of time.
Natural talent will only take you so far, practice makes perfect.
It is entirely a possibility that Travis could get somewhere in WRC given the time frame and his circumstances, especially if he keeps that really awesome co-driver!!! ;)
| Mopho | 10-25-2006 03:17 AM |
[QUOTE=Dutch Scooby lover;15736183]Look at Gigi Galli or Gilles Panizzi, both great tarmac specialists, but nothing special on gravel or snow, and thats why they will never be anything more then midcard in WRC.
It takes a great allrounder to be in the top of WRC, and tho i hate the guy, Loeb has proven himself to be that, like Gronholm.[/QUOTE]
Valid points, but remember, Loeb was a tarmac specialist, not an all-rounder before he began competing in the WRC and Gronholm is not so good at tarmac (by his own admission)
It takes a great allrounder to be in the top of WRC, and tho i hate the guy, Loeb has proven himself to be that, like Gronholm.[/QUOTE]
Valid points, but remember, Loeb was a tarmac specialist, not an all-rounder before he began competing in the WRC and Gronholm is not so good at tarmac (by his own admission)
| Dutch Scooby lover | 10-25-2006 03:23 AM |
But Loeb had the backing of Citroen, as they wanted to get more marketing value out off their WRC (French car,French driver with France being a very chauvinistic country)
Gronholm had admitted not being very good, but at least he has had tarmac experience before getting into WRC.
Pastrana would have to come in (in a type of sport that has very little marketing value in the USA for most teams) as an American, who has never driven on Tarmac before.
The only team with any real marketing at stake would be Prodrive/Subaru.
Gronholm had admitted not being very good, but at least he has had tarmac experience before getting into WRC.
Pastrana would have to come in (in a type of sport that has very little marketing value in the USA for most teams) as an American, who has never driven on Tarmac before.
The only team with any real marketing at stake would be Prodrive/Subaru.
| Mopho | 10-25-2006 03:27 AM |
[QUOTE=Dutch Scooby lover;15739235]But Loeb had the backing of Citroen, as they wanted to get more marketing value out off their WRC (French car,French driver with France being a very chauvinistic country)
Gronholm had admitted not being very good, but at least he has had tarmac experience before getting into WRC.
Pastrana would have to come in (in a type of sport that has very little marketing value in the USA for most teams) as an American, who has never driven on Tarmac before.
The only team with any real marketing at stake would be Prodrive/Subaru.[/QUOTE]
I guarantee you that Travis will be doing tarmac rallies real soon, as I pointed out above, there is plenty of time ( He is not entering the WRC tomorrow you know).
Don't you worry, his management (and his awesome co-driver) are a very smart bunch of people
Gronholm had admitted not being very good, but at least he has had tarmac experience before getting into WRC.
Pastrana would have to come in (in a type of sport that has very little marketing value in the USA for most teams) as an American, who has never driven on Tarmac before.
The only team with any real marketing at stake would be Prodrive/Subaru.[/QUOTE]
I guarantee you that Travis will be doing tarmac rallies real soon, as I pointed out above, there is plenty of time ( He is not entering the WRC tomorrow you know).
Don't you worry, his management (and his awesome co-driver) are a very smart bunch of people
| datageek | 10-25-2006 09:43 AM |
[QUOTE=Dutch Scooby lover;15739235]
Gronholm had admitted not being very good, but at least he has had tarmac experience before getting into WRC.[/QUOTE]
Gronholm won two titles and eighteen rallies before he won a single tarmac event. Tarmac has been de-emphasized in the current WRC format, so tarmac expertise is not as important. Just ask Gilles Panizzi.
And Chris Atkinson came into the WRC having never driven a tarmac round before. That didn't stop him from taking fourth overall and first in class on his fourth tarmac event.
[QUOTE]The only team with any real marketing at stake would be Prodrive/Subaru.[/QUOTE]
Don't discount Suzuki. They are stepping up to a full WRC program in the next couple of years. And Travis has an established relationship with them.
Gronholm had admitted not being very good, but at least he has had tarmac experience before getting into WRC.[/QUOTE]
Gronholm won two titles and eighteen rallies before he won a single tarmac event. Tarmac has been de-emphasized in the current WRC format, so tarmac expertise is not as important. Just ask Gilles Panizzi.
And Chris Atkinson came into the WRC having never driven a tarmac round before. That didn't stop him from taking fourth overall and first in class on his fourth tarmac event.
[QUOTE]The only team with any real marketing at stake would be Prodrive/Subaru.[/QUOTE]
Don't discount Suzuki. They are stepping up to a full WRC program in the next couple of years. And Travis has an established relationship with them.
| LastResort | 10-25-2006 09:47 AM |
That's a good point. Suzuki is in the same position Subaru was over a decade ago, and could grow their car market with an AWD turbo car.
| akuhner | 10-25-2006 08:40 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho;15739146]
The other advantage Travis has is he started rallying at what, 21(?), and is now 22. Pat started at 28 (which, of course no offense to Pat, was too late in motorsports). By the time Travis is 28, if he keeps going at the rate he is with the continued support he has, he will have way more seat time (and will likely be faster) than Pat.[/QUOTE]
That is a very good point (except I thought Pat got an earlier start than 28). However, being instant gratification nation, we are too focused on what Travis will do when he's 24 to see beyond that! ;)
The other advantage Travis has is he started rallying at what, 21(?), and is now 22. Pat started at 28 (which, of course no offense to Pat, was too late in motorsports). By the time Travis is 28, if he keeps going at the rate he is with the continued support he has, he will have way more seat time (and will likely be faster) than Pat.[/QUOTE]
That is a very good point (except I thought Pat got an earlier start than 28). However, being instant gratification nation, we are too focused on what Travis will do when he's 24 to see beyond that! ;)
| akuhner | 10-25-2006 08:53 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15737839]I have attended 1 WRC event in Germany 2003, 2 European Rally Championship rounds and countless local European Rallies. I attended 2 rounds so far here in US and talked to drivers who run here. I also talked to European Drivers who come here. I talked to Janusz Kulig who was here in 2002 in Chattanooga for Cherokee Trials and took 2nd place in Group N EVO VI loosing only by a second to Dave Higgins in an Open Group WRX.
He pointed out that he never felt so much danger as when he was running without his own pace notes in that rally.
If you really think organizer's pace notes are enough, than you obviously are not driving fast. It may be the top of your skills, but it is not fast. Let's not fool ourselves. No one serious (reputable driver) will want to come here and run at 100% because they're not crazy to go flat out on a questionable pace notes.
I certainly wouldn't and drivers that I know and ran LSPR didn't.[/QUOTE]
I think Don's point was that there is a long history of rally in the US that you are ignoring when you make those statements. Did you know that all US rallies used to be "blind," using only the tulip route book (i.e. only hazards and junctions marked, sometimes going miles without a single note)? That kept speeds down, but you learned to read the road without notes. Going to Jemba notes was a big deal, but those who had run blind before that could merge the information from the notes with their ability to read the road and go faster safely. One reason we went Jemba over Recce was the time/money factor - making competitiors take more days off, pay for more hotels, etc, would have thinned the field.
How can you say that nobody will come from abroad when Stig ran almost a full season with Rally America?
For our purposes, Jemba notes are enough, and people drive plenty fast using them. We are actively trying to slow people down, not make people faster. Full Recce will be another learning curve for anyone going big-time, but they'll get through it.
The only two rallies I've run were both Recce. Rally NY (99% tarmac, BTW) was two pass recce using organizer notes as a base, and my co-driver and I had a pretty good time of it considering I had never listened to notes before. Rallye Defi in Quebec was recce as well, but my co-driver couldn't take the extra day off so we rallied using someone else's notes. I thought his distances were really weird, and he had cautions and jumps in places my slow car wasn't going to have issues, but we made it through just fine. I wouldn't want to do that again though!
He pointed out that he never felt so much danger as when he was running without his own pace notes in that rally.
If you really think organizer's pace notes are enough, than you obviously are not driving fast. It may be the top of your skills, but it is not fast. Let's not fool ourselves. No one serious (reputable driver) will want to come here and run at 100% because they're not crazy to go flat out on a questionable pace notes.
I certainly wouldn't and drivers that I know and ran LSPR didn't.[/QUOTE]
I think Don's point was that there is a long history of rally in the US that you are ignoring when you make those statements. Did you know that all US rallies used to be "blind," using only the tulip route book (i.e. only hazards and junctions marked, sometimes going miles without a single note)? That kept speeds down, but you learned to read the road without notes. Going to Jemba notes was a big deal, but those who had run blind before that could merge the information from the notes with their ability to read the road and go faster safely. One reason we went Jemba over Recce was the time/money factor - making competitiors take more days off, pay for more hotels, etc, would have thinned the field.
How can you say that nobody will come from abroad when Stig ran almost a full season with Rally America?
For our purposes, Jemba notes are enough, and people drive plenty fast using them. We are actively trying to slow people down, not make people faster. Full Recce will be another learning curve for anyone going big-time, but they'll get through it.
The only two rallies I've run were both Recce. Rally NY (99% tarmac, BTW) was two pass recce using organizer notes as a base, and my co-driver and I had a pretty good time of it considering I had never listened to notes before. Rallye Defi in Quebec was recce as well, but my co-driver couldn't take the extra day off so we rallied using someone else's notes. I thought his distances were really weird, and he had cautions and jumps in places my slow car wasn't going to have issues, but we made it through just fine. I wouldn't want to do that again though!
| rallymaniac | 10-26-2006 12:01 AM |
[QUOTE=Car #187;15750328]I think Don's point was that there is a long history of rally in the US that you are ignoring when you make those statements. Did you know that all US rallies used to be "blind," using only the tulip route book (i.e. only hazards and junctions marked, sometimes going miles without a single note)? That kept speeds down, but you learned to read the road without notes. Going to Jemba notes was a big deal, but those who had run blind before that could merge the information from the notes with their ability to read the road and go faster safely. One reason we went Jemba over Recce was the time/money factor - making competitiors take more days off, pay for more hotels, etc, would have thinned the field.
How can you say that nobody will come from abroad when Stig ran almost a full season with Rally America?
For our purposes, Jemba notes are enough, and people drive plenty fast using them. We are actively trying to slow people down, not make people faster. Full Recce will be another learning curve for anyone going big-time, but they'll get through it.
The only two rallies I've run were both Recce. Rally NY (99% tarmac, BTW) was two pass recce using organizer notes as a base, and my co-driver and I had a pretty good time of it considering I had never listened to notes before. Rallye Defi in Quebec was recce as well, but my co-driver couldn't take the extra day off so we rallied using someone else's notes. I thought his distances were really weird, and he had cautions and jumps in places my slow car wasn't going to have issues, but we made it through just fine. I wouldn't want to do that again though![/QUOTE]
In this case it looks like you still want to keep rally as a "hobby" rather than sport. In the situation you described above, there is no way any driver can become good enough to even get to top 10 in PCWRC.
The whole point in rally is to go fastest you can, not to slow down. I know the whole deal with insurance purposes and all but come on, this is like saying "we in US love to have 100m sprint athletes, it's just we don't want them to be any good and fast and will tie their shoe laces together so they don't run fast". This is crazy.
You described 2 situations where Recce could've been usefull for you but you couldn't take advantage of it. Running with someone else's pace notes is not safe, as i stated before and is no different from running with the notes supplied by the organizers.
I know that people want to keep the costs down but even in way poorer countries in Europe they can have 2 day rally with one day Recce.
We run on Fri and Sat here in US now. How about making Fri the recce day and run Sat and Sun without late stages so that people can make it home.
If US rally continues doing what it's doing, it will never have FIA approval and WRC round.
It will always be viewed by general population as "some weird hobby for rich people with aspirations that can never be reached".
Why do we always have to have it our American way instead of the "right way" just like everyone else in the world does? :rolleyes:
How can you say that nobody will come from abroad when Stig ran almost a full season with Rally America?
For our purposes, Jemba notes are enough, and people drive plenty fast using them. We are actively trying to slow people down, not make people faster. Full Recce will be another learning curve for anyone going big-time, but they'll get through it.
The only two rallies I've run were both Recce. Rally NY (99% tarmac, BTW) was two pass recce using organizer notes as a base, and my co-driver and I had a pretty good time of it considering I had never listened to notes before. Rallye Defi in Quebec was recce as well, but my co-driver couldn't take the extra day off so we rallied using someone else's notes. I thought his distances were really weird, and he had cautions and jumps in places my slow car wasn't going to have issues, but we made it through just fine. I wouldn't want to do that again though![/QUOTE]
In this case it looks like you still want to keep rally as a "hobby" rather than sport. In the situation you described above, there is no way any driver can become good enough to even get to top 10 in PCWRC.
The whole point in rally is to go fastest you can, not to slow down. I know the whole deal with insurance purposes and all but come on, this is like saying "we in US love to have 100m sprint athletes, it's just we don't want them to be any good and fast and will tie their shoe laces together so they don't run fast". This is crazy.
You described 2 situations where Recce could've been usefull for you but you couldn't take advantage of it. Running with someone else's pace notes is not safe, as i stated before and is no different from running with the notes supplied by the organizers.
I know that people want to keep the costs down but even in way poorer countries in Europe they can have 2 day rally with one day Recce.
We run on Fri and Sat here in US now. How about making Fri the recce day and run Sat and Sun without late stages so that people can make it home.
If US rally continues doing what it's doing, it will never have FIA approval and WRC round.
It will always be viewed by general population as "some weird hobby for rich people with aspirations that can never be reached".
Why do we always have to have it our American way instead of the "right way" just like everyone else in the world does? :rolleyes:
| LastResort | 10-26-2006 12:06 AM |
From my view as an outsider, there are not enough professional groups, venues, advertisers, or organizers to have a dedicated PCWRC equivalent circuit. You attempt to make it the same level of dedication, and it will smother the "hobbiests" that are currently major contributers. A slow growth, is better than a stillborn.
| Morison | 10-26-2006 12:50 AM |
Back to the question at hand, I think Travis has many of the things taht it takes to make it to the WRC. Not the least of things is sponsorship, time and dedication to training and learning the sport and how to be successfull. Add to that his youth, and natural talent and he shoudl be able to reach any height he wants - mostly because he can afford to dedicate the time and resources to foster and hone his skills.
Without question, being supported as he is plays a part in winning championships. Knowing that you have ample, skilled crew waiting to fix everything on your car at each service gives a HUGE comfort zone. Knowing that all you have to do is show up and hop in the best prepared car in the field also adds a level of 'calm' and comfort that increases performance.
I'm not whining. The VTCar build and support in what is essentially a clubman championship is a definate advantage ... but is definately fair game.
The next step is an interesting one as Travis 'should' get clobbered if he runs a PWRC event. Asia pacific or some other 'feeder' championship would do him well, as would following Pat's example of the Peugeot cup (or is there a Suzuki one make series somewhere??)
I guess, in short, I do think Travis has what it takes to run in WRC ... I also think he has skill as a driver.
Without question, being supported as he is plays a part in winning championships. Knowing that you have ample, skilled crew waiting to fix everything on your car at each service gives a HUGE comfort zone. Knowing that all you have to do is show up and hop in the best prepared car in the field also adds a level of 'calm' and comfort that increases performance.
I'm not whining. The VTCar build and support in what is essentially a clubman championship is a definate advantage ... but is definately fair game.
The next step is an interesting one as Travis 'should' get clobbered if he runs a PWRC event. Asia pacific or some other 'feeder' championship would do him well, as would following Pat's example of the Peugeot cup (or is there a Suzuki one make series somewhere??)
I guess, in short, I do think Travis has what it takes to run in WRC ... I also think he has skill as a driver.
| Morison | 10-26-2006 12:54 AM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15752640]If US rally continues doing what it's doing, it will never have FIA approval and WRC round.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think that should be a goal?
Canada has had two events that were close to being added to the WRC calander (closer than many think) and both events are gone from the calander now.
The WRC has little or no reason to come to the USA, and the legal climate does nothing to help that.
What makes you think that should be a goal?
Canada has had two events that were close to being added to the WRC calander (closer than many think) and both events are gone from the calander now.
The WRC has little or no reason to come to the USA, and the legal climate does nothing to help that.
| Evo3Codriver | 10-26-2006 01:47 AM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]In this case it looks like you still want to keep rally as a "hobby" rather than sport. In the situation you described above, there is no way any driver can become good enough to even get to top 10 in PCWRC. [/QUOTE]
So you have one guy here that whats to try WRC. You want to change the rules and costs and time from our real jobs for everyone else so that one person can live their pipe-dream. No. That one person has to get out of the kiddie pool.
The championship organizers could not put on rallies with just Travis, Block and Iorio entered in them because no one else could afford to campaign a car.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]The whole point in rally is to go fastest you can, not to slow down. I know the whole deal with insurance purposes [/QUOTE]
What deal is that? Running organizer supplied notes is not because of insurance reasons. And there are many rallies that plain just don't allow recce period, even in Europe and including WRC. Go read FIA rules on the 3 types of recce.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]You described 2 situations where Recce could've been usefull for you but you couldn't take advantage of it. Running with someone else's pace notes is not safe, as i stated before and is no different from running with the notes supplied by the organizers. [/QUOTE]
I have participated in many a recce, used other teams pacenotes, sold our pacenotes, traded pacenotes for beer, given our pacenotes to teams unable to participate in recce, been the preparer of organizer supplied stagenotes, translated languages to run organizer supplied stagenotes, ...... and we are all still here: safe & sound.
So what is it, first you say the US is too slow and then you are worried about safety? Gee, where were you when the US and Canada didn't have turbo restrictor rules like the rest of the world. Was that unsafe or was everyone else pussies?
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]I know that people want to keep the costs down but even in way poorer countries in Europe they can have 2 day rally with one day Recce.
We run on Fri and Sat here in US now. How about making Fri the recce day and run Sat and Sun without late stages so that people can make it home. [/QUOTE]
Beat this into your head: the US is not Europe and you can't tow across it in 1 day, the US is not Europe so there are no sponsors, the US is not Europe so rally drivers have real jobs, the US is not Europe so you watch NASCAR and not rally on TV, ...
When its your money, your time towing, your time away from your paying job to play in the woods, then your vote counts.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]Why do we always have to have it our American way instead of the "right way" just like everyone else in the world does? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I've participated in plenty enough rallies offering recce right here in N America to say I am proficient in pacenoting as anyone else abroad. I like recce when offered but also like stagenotes for what the time and $ they save me from having to participate in recce.
Because Travis has choosen not to participate in those events has been his choice. Look at Iorio who is taking advantage of competing at events offering recce. Has that made Matt much faster? How about Pat Richard back when he had recce event experience and then came to US to race against mostly guys who'd run with stagenotes?
Hey RallyManiac, there was someone serveral years ago in Canada who made an anonymous 'donation' to the Canadian Association of Rallysport of a huge pile of $$$ so that the Canadian National events that could logistically (mostly be given road permits or access to stageroads for duration of recce and rally) offer recce, to have the funds to do so (offering recce costs the organizers extra too). If you want to make that contribution to RallyAmerica, call Doug Havir or JB Niday.
So you have one guy here that whats to try WRC. You want to change the rules and costs and time from our real jobs for everyone else so that one person can live their pipe-dream. No. That one person has to get out of the kiddie pool.
The championship organizers could not put on rallies with just Travis, Block and Iorio entered in them because no one else could afford to campaign a car.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]The whole point in rally is to go fastest you can, not to slow down. I know the whole deal with insurance purposes [/QUOTE]
What deal is that? Running organizer supplied notes is not because of insurance reasons. And there are many rallies that plain just don't allow recce period, even in Europe and including WRC. Go read FIA rules on the 3 types of recce.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]You described 2 situations where Recce could've been usefull for you but you couldn't take advantage of it. Running with someone else's pace notes is not safe, as i stated before and is no different from running with the notes supplied by the organizers. [/QUOTE]
I have participated in many a recce, used other teams pacenotes, sold our pacenotes, traded pacenotes for beer, given our pacenotes to teams unable to participate in recce, been the preparer of organizer supplied stagenotes, translated languages to run organizer supplied stagenotes, ...... and we are all still here: safe & sound.
So what is it, first you say the US is too slow and then you are worried about safety? Gee, where were you when the US and Canada didn't have turbo restrictor rules like the rest of the world. Was that unsafe or was everyone else pussies?
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]I know that people want to keep the costs down but even in way poorer countries in Europe they can have 2 day rally with one day Recce.
We run on Fri and Sat here in US now. How about making Fri the recce day and run Sat and Sun without late stages so that people can make it home. [/QUOTE]
Beat this into your head: the US is not Europe and you can't tow across it in 1 day, the US is not Europe so there are no sponsors, the US is not Europe so rally drivers have real jobs, the US is not Europe so you watch NASCAR and not rally on TV, ...
When its your money, your time towing, your time away from your paying job to play in the woods, then your vote counts.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac]Why do we always have to have it our American way instead of the "right way" just like everyone else in the world does? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I've participated in plenty enough rallies offering recce right here in N America to say I am proficient in pacenoting as anyone else abroad. I like recce when offered but also like stagenotes for what the time and $ they save me from having to participate in recce.
Because Travis has choosen not to participate in those events has been his choice. Look at Iorio who is taking advantage of competing at events offering recce. Has that made Matt much faster? How about Pat Richard back when he had recce event experience and then came to US to race against mostly guys who'd run with stagenotes?
Hey RallyManiac, there was someone serveral years ago in Canada who made an anonymous 'donation' to the Canadian Association of Rallysport of a huge pile of $$$ so that the Canadian National events that could logistically (mostly be given road permits or access to stageroads for duration of recce and rally) offer recce, to have the funds to do so (offering recce costs the organizers extra too). If you want to make that contribution to RallyAmerica, call Doug Havir or JB Niday.
| bjorn240 | 10-26-2006 09:14 AM |
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver]Has that made Matt much faster?[/QUOTE]
Yes it has.
Yes it has.
| rallymaniac | 10-26-2006 10:31 AM |
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]So you have one guy here that whats to try WRC. You want to change the rules and costs and time from our real jobs for everyone else so that one person can live their pipe-dream. No. That one person has to get out of the kiddie pool.
The championship organizers could not put on rallies with just Travis, Block and Iorio entered in them because no one else could afford to campaign a car. [/QUOTE]
No I never said I want change everything for one guy. I would like to see changes so all of us can benefit from it. I didn�t know that RallyAmerica is a North American organization of buddies who want to race among each other and if some of them have ambitions to do it better, then they become actually too fast/dangerous and not fun any more :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]What deal is that? Running organizer supplied notes is not because of insurance reasons. And there are many rallies that plain just don't allow recce period, even in Europe and including WRC. Go read FIA rules on the 3 types of recce.[/QUOTE]
You�re missing my point, pace notes are not insurance issue. When I mentioned insurance, I meant the overall liability of organizing a rally. If people are so much concerned about the safety, why not allow something that contributes to the safety of the driver and co-driver? And how many professional people participate during those rallies in Europe with no recces?
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]I have participated in many a recce, used other teams pacenotes, sold our pacenotes, traded pacenotes for beer, given our pacenotes to teams unable to participate in recce, been the preparer of organizer supplied stagenotes, translated languages to run organizer supplied stagenotes, ...... and we are all still here: safe & sound.[/QUOTE]
That is not the point. I can run any stage in the world without pacenotes but I�m just going to be dead slow. The point is: you cannot be competitive in this situation. But hey, I just found out you guys do it not for speed anyway.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]So what is it, first you say the US is too slow and then you are worried about safety? Gee, where were you when the US and Canada didn't have turbo restrictor rules like the rest of the world. Was that unsafe or was everyone else pussies?[/QUOTE]
Speed does not equal unsafe. You can be very safe at high speeds if you know what you�re doing and when you have adequate conditions to run at such speeds. I�ve seen countless examples of drivers backing off before the corner because they had no clue what�s behind it. Later it turned out that this could�ve been a �flat out� corner had it been described with proper notes. This type of situation slows down any reasonable driver. If you go flat out without knowing what�s behind, you must be stupid and you create danger for yourself and others.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]Beat this into your head: the US is not Europe and you can't tow across it in 1 day, the US is not Europe so there are no sponsors, the US is not Europe so rally drivers have real jobs, the US is not Europe so you watch NASCAR and not rally on TV, ...
When its your money, your time towing, your time away from your paying job to play in the woods, then your vote counts.[/QUOTE]
Don�t preach me on this, because I know that if you want, you can find a sponsor here. This is a country with one of the greatest business capitals in the world. So much money is here that it�s not even funny. People in European countries which some of them are plain poor, manage to find sponsors and money to run it. They also have jobs or companies that they run. If you want, you can do anything.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]I've participated in plenty enough rallies offering recce right here in N America to say I am proficient in pacenoting as anyone else abroad. I like recce when offered but also like stagenotes for what the time and $ they save me from having to participate in recce.
Because Travis has choosen not to participate in those events has been his choice. Look at Iorio who is taking advantage of competing at events offering recce. Has that made Matt much faster? How about Pat Richard back when he had recce event experience and then came to US to race against mostly guys who'd run with stagenotes?[/QUOTE]
As I said before, do you want to do as hobby? Maybe some people want to take it a step higher?
You�re concerned about the costs, stay at local RallyX, it only takes one day and it�s close :rolleyes: You either commit to something or not.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]Hey RallyManiac, there was someone serveral years ago in Canada who made an anonymous 'donation' to the Canadian Association of Rallysport of a huge pile of $$$ so that the Canadian National events that could logistically (mostly be given road permits or access to stageroads for duration of recce and rally) offer recce, to have the funds to do so (offering recce costs the organizers extra too). If you want to make that contribution to RallyAmerica, call Doug Havir or JB Niday.[/QUOTE]
No coment. You obviously have no clue how the world runs rallies.
The championship organizers could not put on rallies with just Travis, Block and Iorio entered in them because no one else could afford to campaign a car. [/QUOTE]
No I never said I want change everything for one guy. I would like to see changes so all of us can benefit from it. I didn�t know that RallyAmerica is a North American organization of buddies who want to race among each other and if some of them have ambitions to do it better, then they become actually too fast/dangerous and not fun any more :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]What deal is that? Running organizer supplied notes is not because of insurance reasons. And there are many rallies that plain just don't allow recce period, even in Europe and including WRC. Go read FIA rules on the 3 types of recce.[/QUOTE]
You�re missing my point, pace notes are not insurance issue. When I mentioned insurance, I meant the overall liability of organizing a rally. If people are so much concerned about the safety, why not allow something that contributes to the safety of the driver and co-driver? And how many professional people participate during those rallies in Europe with no recces?
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]I have participated in many a recce, used other teams pacenotes, sold our pacenotes, traded pacenotes for beer, given our pacenotes to teams unable to participate in recce, been the preparer of organizer supplied stagenotes, translated languages to run organizer supplied stagenotes, ...... and we are all still here: safe & sound.[/QUOTE]
That is not the point. I can run any stage in the world without pacenotes but I�m just going to be dead slow. The point is: you cannot be competitive in this situation. But hey, I just found out you guys do it not for speed anyway.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]So what is it, first you say the US is too slow and then you are worried about safety? Gee, where were you when the US and Canada didn't have turbo restrictor rules like the rest of the world. Was that unsafe or was everyone else pussies?[/QUOTE]
Speed does not equal unsafe. You can be very safe at high speeds if you know what you�re doing and when you have adequate conditions to run at such speeds. I�ve seen countless examples of drivers backing off before the corner because they had no clue what�s behind it. Later it turned out that this could�ve been a �flat out� corner had it been described with proper notes. This type of situation slows down any reasonable driver. If you go flat out without knowing what�s behind, you must be stupid and you create danger for yourself and others.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]Beat this into your head: the US is not Europe and you can't tow across it in 1 day, the US is not Europe so there are no sponsors, the US is not Europe so rally drivers have real jobs, the US is not Europe so you watch NASCAR and not rally on TV, ...
When its your money, your time towing, your time away from your paying job to play in the woods, then your vote counts.[/QUOTE]
Don�t preach me on this, because I know that if you want, you can find a sponsor here. This is a country with one of the greatest business capitals in the world. So much money is here that it�s not even funny. People in European countries which some of them are plain poor, manage to find sponsors and money to run it. They also have jobs or companies that they run. If you want, you can do anything.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]I've participated in plenty enough rallies offering recce right here in N America to say I am proficient in pacenoting as anyone else abroad. I like recce when offered but also like stagenotes for what the time and $ they save me from having to participate in recce.
Because Travis has choosen not to participate in those events has been his choice. Look at Iorio who is taking advantage of competing at events offering recce. Has that made Matt much faster? How about Pat Richard back when he had recce event experience and then came to US to race against mostly guys who'd run with stagenotes?[/QUOTE]
As I said before, do you want to do as hobby? Maybe some people want to take it a step higher?
You�re concerned about the costs, stay at local RallyX, it only takes one day and it�s close :rolleyes: You either commit to something or not.
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15753749]Hey RallyManiac, there was someone serveral years ago in Canada who made an anonymous 'donation' to the Canadian Association of Rallysport of a huge pile of $$$ so that the Canadian National events that could logistically (mostly be given road permits or access to stageroads for duration of recce and rally) offer recce, to have the funds to do so (offering recce costs the organizers extra too). If you want to make that contribution to RallyAmerica, call Doug Havir or JB Niday.[/QUOTE]
No coment. You obviously have no clue how the world runs rallies.
| RichardM | 10-26-2006 10:38 AM |
rallymaniac, Your web site has several great photos. Some are of rally cars. Which one is yours?
Organizer and driver
Organizer and driver
| rallymaniac | 10-26-2006 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE=RichardM;15756249]rallymaniac, Your web site has several great photos. Some are of rally cars. Which one is yours?
Organizer and driver[/QUOTE]
Thank you Richard.
Currently i don't participate in rally due to financial issues. I don't want to run in one or two events and then have no money to continue.
I may be able to Codrive for my friend next season. We'll see.
For now i'll stick to helping out and spectate and take some pix ;)
and this has to do for now as my fun as a driver ;)
[IMG]http://rallymaniac.smugmug.com/photos/102106722-L.jpg[/IMG]
Organizer and driver[/QUOTE]
Thank you Richard.
Currently i don't participate in rally due to financial issues. I don't want to run in one or two events and then have no money to continue.
I may be able to Codrive for my friend next season. We'll see.
For now i'll stick to helping out and spectate and take some pix ;)
and this has to do for now as my fun as a driver ;)
[IMG]http://rallymaniac.smugmug.com/photos/102106722-L.jpg[/IMG]
| RichardM | 10-26-2006 11:18 AM |
Good to hear you may co-drive. Once you get more involved at running in events and maybe even helping organize, you will find all the answers to the questions you think are easily answered. You will discover that the reason US rally is run the way it is, is not because we don't want to change but that circumstances dictate that is the way we run.
| akuhner | 10-26-2006 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15752640]Why do we always have to have it our American way instead of the "right way" just like everyone else in the world does? [/QUOTE]
I wish it was that simple. We all know that we don't do it "right" compared to Europe or other FIA goverened areas, but we also don't have the same conditions to foster the sport in (all sports are hobbies until you go professional). We don't have fans. We don't have (good mainstream) TV coverage. Hence, we don't have sponsors. Without sponsors we have a few rich guys doing it "right" (many of whom are talented, some are not), a bunch of guys with average to small budgets scraping enough money together to run a championship, and a ton of guys who run 2 or 3 events a year on a small budget. There is the small handful of guys who have proper sponsors, and they do well, but they are statisictally insignificant. How, may I ask, would you plan on building a proper FIA style series on that base? Poland may have had a vibrant rally series going through tough economic times, but they also had a huge fanbase, which generates sponsors (who actually used sponsorship for accounting fraud, but that's beside the point!), which allows for things like Super Specials on city streets in Warsaw. We simply do not have those conditions here.
Doing it right is a matter of having the right tools and the right foundation - we have neither... yet.
I wish it was that simple. We all know that we don't do it "right" compared to Europe or other FIA goverened areas, but we also don't have the same conditions to foster the sport in (all sports are hobbies until you go professional). We don't have fans. We don't have (good mainstream) TV coverage. Hence, we don't have sponsors. Without sponsors we have a few rich guys doing it "right" (many of whom are talented, some are not), a bunch of guys with average to small budgets scraping enough money together to run a championship, and a ton of guys who run 2 or 3 events a year on a small budget. There is the small handful of guys who have proper sponsors, and they do well, but they are statisictally insignificant. How, may I ask, would you plan on building a proper FIA style series on that base? Poland may have had a vibrant rally series going through tough economic times, but they also had a huge fanbase, which generates sponsors (who actually used sponsorship for accounting fraud, but that's beside the point!), which allows for things like Super Specials on city streets in Warsaw. We simply do not have those conditions here.
Doing it right is a matter of having the right tools and the right foundation - we have neither... yet.
| akuhner | 10-26-2006 03:02 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15756163]As I said before, do you want to do as hobby? Maybe some people want to take it a step higher?
You�re concerned about the costs, stay at local RallyX, it only takes one day and it�s close :rolleyes: You either commit to something or not.
.[/QUOTE]
I wanted to have a reasonable discussion... until I noticed this gem. That's just retarded. Why does stage rally have to be professional? I bought my car and ran two events on less than $20k, and that was about 50% more than I should have spent. Cut out all the guys like me and you'll go from 40 to 50 entries per rally to 10 to 15, maybe. That attiude would kill the sport.
Do you make this same arguement to people playing pickup basketball games?
You�re concerned about the costs, stay at local RallyX, it only takes one day and it�s close :rolleyes: You either commit to something or not.
.[/QUOTE]
I wanted to have a reasonable discussion... until I noticed this gem. That's just retarded. Why does stage rally have to be professional? I bought my car and ran two events on less than $20k, and that was about 50% more than I should have spent. Cut out all the guys like me and you'll go from 40 to 50 entries per rally to 10 to 15, maybe. That attiude would kill the sport.
Do you make this same arguement to people playing pickup basketball games?
| RichardM | 10-26-2006 03:30 PM |
rallymaniac, do you have figures on how many people world wide get paid to rally? That is, are really professionals. Consider the same thing in road racing. The percentage of amateurs is extremely high.
As to committing to rally, I generally commit to about $20k a year when my wife is working. A little less the last 2 years since she has been in grad school.
As to committing to rally, I generally commit to about $20k a year when my wife is working. A little less the last 2 years since she has been in grad school.
| rallymaniac | 10-26-2006 03:45 PM |
[QUOTE=RichardM;15760604]rallymaniac, do you have figures on how many people world wide get paid to rally? That is, are really professionals. Consider the same thing in road racing. The percentage of amateurs is extremely high.
As to committing to rally, I generally commit to about $20k a year when my wife is working. A little less the last 2 years since she has been in grad school.[/QUOTE]
I have to specify actually, that by professional i mean commited to doing it to the best ability. I don't mean "getting payed" since i know that no one rallying outside WRC gets paid. It's just a matter of puting least of your own money to do it.
Besides this discussion is going nowhere. I'm unable to explain you that in order to get better and advance in this sport you need to have your pacenotes, and you're unable to persuade me that rally is fine without them.
Let's leave it like that.
As to committing to rally, I generally commit to about $20k a year when my wife is working. A little less the last 2 years since she has been in grad school.[/QUOTE]
I have to specify actually, that by professional i mean commited to doing it to the best ability. I don't mean "getting payed" since i know that no one rallying outside WRC gets paid. It's just a matter of puting least of your own money to do it.
Besides this discussion is going nowhere. I'm unable to explain you that in order to get better and advance in this sport you need to have your pacenotes, and you're unable to persuade me that rally is fine without them.
Let's leave it like that.
| RichardM | 10-26-2006 04:12 PM |
You have me confused with someone else. I would like pacenotes. But I have not figured out how to make this possible on the event I help organize. And at the moment, I can not take the time from work to run recce.
| OBShahn | 10-26-2006 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15760844]I have to specify actually, that by professional i mean commited to doing it to the best ability. I don't mean "getting payed" since i know that no one rallying outside WRC gets paid. It's just a matter of puting least of your own money to do it.
Besides this discussion is going nowhere. I'm unable to explain you that in order to get better and advance in this sport you need to have your pacenotes, and you're unable to persuade me that rally is fine without them.
Let's leave it like that.[/QUOTE]
Let us look at a bit fo the discourse here.
You have a variety of experienced competitors, former crew chiefs, and organizers trying to explain the situation and you continue to retort. "You have to have pace notes blah blah blah".
You are talking to people who are part of the solution, telling them what they already know, and when they tell you its not that easy you tell them they have no idea what they are talking about.
As for the betterment of rally there is no point in having pace notes until you can have a viable commercial aspect to the sport. Why should teams commit more of their days off, more of their money, and more their time before there is a viable commercial aspect to the sport.
There isn't a single person in the rally community that can't appreciate the values of recce, the question comes down to the viability of it. What you lack to address or admit is that it is not economically viable given the current state of the sport. Instituting rally now would further dillute the ability of the field to be competitive; as it is only a select few would be able to compete in a full championship with recce. The rest of the competitors finding a way to do a full season would likely be forced to either not do recce, thereby not being on the same footing in their potential to go fast or not to a full championship. This is entirely in addition to the issue of road closures and event costs, which will sky rocket forcing the volunteer organizers to loose money or entry fees to rise forcing competitors out.
Face it, recce with the current state of things is not economically viable. Until the sport is in a position where it can take advantage of something like recce on a large scale these issues need to be handled on a case by case basis. Even the canadian rally championship, by and large the most open embracers of recce do not have a full 2 pass recce championship because it is not possible at all of the events. This in a series where it is common practice.
Additionally the fact of the matter is that 95% of the field isn't driving at a high enough level to need recce. There are plenty of drivers that would go faster on recce because of confidence but even those drivers could be out driven in the same machinery by a driver with better road reading skills and a greater willingness to committ.
Besides this discussion is going nowhere. I'm unable to explain you that in order to get better and advance in this sport you need to have your pacenotes, and you're unable to persuade me that rally is fine without them.
Let's leave it like that.[/QUOTE]
Let us look at a bit fo the discourse here.
You have a variety of experienced competitors, former crew chiefs, and organizers trying to explain the situation and you continue to retort. "You have to have pace notes blah blah blah".
You are talking to people who are part of the solution, telling them what they already know, and when they tell you its not that easy you tell them they have no idea what they are talking about.
As for the betterment of rally there is no point in having pace notes until you can have a viable commercial aspect to the sport. Why should teams commit more of their days off, more of their money, and more their time before there is a viable commercial aspect to the sport.
There isn't a single person in the rally community that can't appreciate the values of recce, the question comes down to the viability of it. What you lack to address or admit is that it is not economically viable given the current state of the sport. Instituting rally now would further dillute the ability of the field to be competitive; as it is only a select few would be able to compete in a full championship with recce. The rest of the competitors finding a way to do a full season would likely be forced to either not do recce, thereby not being on the same footing in their potential to go fast or not to a full championship. This is entirely in addition to the issue of road closures and event costs, which will sky rocket forcing the volunteer organizers to loose money or entry fees to rise forcing competitors out.
Face it, recce with the current state of things is not economically viable. Until the sport is in a position where it can take advantage of something like recce on a large scale these issues need to be handled on a case by case basis. Even the canadian rally championship, by and large the most open embracers of recce do not have a full 2 pass recce championship because it is not possible at all of the events. This in a series where it is common practice.
Additionally the fact of the matter is that 95% of the field isn't driving at a high enough level to need recce. There are plenty of drivers that would go faster on recce because of confidence but even those drivers could be out driven in the same machinery by a driver with better road reading skills and a greater willingness to committ.
| Evo3Codriver | 10-26-2006 10:27 PM |
[QUOTE=OBShahn] Even the canadian rally championship, by and large the most open embracers of recce do not have a full 2 pass recce championship because it is not possible at all of the events. This in a series where it is common practice.[/QUOTE]
Yep. And there are only 6 events in championship so its not as time or $ intensive as either US series. With a 6 event series, recce at each is do-able. The Canadian's train transportation program helps too.
RallyManiac, you sure you aren't related to RallyNut on SpecialStage.com?
Drivers (and codrivers) on stagenotes do know which curves are 'flat' and which they may need to lift for just as they would if they'd recced. Its as easy as marking the L6 and R6 with no reason to brake for following them as 'flat' in the notes prior to the start. Don't blame the stagenotes for teams not preparing themselves.
Even with pacenotes, teams cannot run 100% on them at many rallies. Winter rallies especially when the roads have been plowed between recce and rally, but also I've done recce in hurricane and the roads and washouts had all drastically changed the following day for the rally.
Recce is rather boring despite how labor intensive it is and for the codriver up latenight (read: early the next morning 3AMish) editing notes, can bring fatigue raceday.
[QUOTE=RallyManiac]When I mentioned insurance, I meant the overall liability of organizing a rally. If people are so much concerned about the safety, why not allow something that contributes to the safety of the driver and co-driver?[/QUOTE]
Ever hear of how Possum Borne was killed?
Many rallies that don't allow recce are because the roads are used for logging and can only be closed race day. I've come face to face with speeding logging truck on narrow icy roads while on recce. Not amusing. Recce itself has dangers.
[QUOTE=RallyManiac]You obviously have no clue how the world runs rallies.[/QUOTE]
Yet I've competed in rallies internationally and in FIA listed events but you know more cause you've watched a couple and have 'WRC' on your license plate. I must be an idiot.
You admit you don't have $ to compete but are trying to tell those who are that they are slow and how to spend their money and time so its more exciting for you to watch. Why not bitch about how slow US prepped cars are? You'll get a more favorable response.
Yep. And there are only 6 events in championship so its not as time or $ intensive as either US series. With a 6 event series, recce at each is do-able. The Canadian's train transportation program helps too.
RallyManiac, you sure you aren't related to RallyNut on SpecialStage.com?
Drivers (and codrivers) on stagenotes do know which curves are 'flat' and which they may need to lift for just as they would if they'd recced. Its as easy as marking the L6 and R6 with no reason to brake for following them as 'flat' in the notes prior to the start. Don't blame the stagenotes for teams not preparing themselves.
Even with pacenotes, teams cannot run 100% on them at many rallies. Winter rallies especially when the roads have been plowed between recce and rally, but also I've done recce in hurricane and the roads and washouts had all drastically changed the following day for the rally.
Recce is rather boring despite how labor intensive it is and for the codriver up latenight (read: early the next morning 3AMish) editing notes, can bring fatigue raceday.
[QUOTE=RallyManiac]When I mentioned insurance, I meant the overall liability of organizing a rally. If people are so much concerned about the safety, why not allow something that contributes to the safety of the driver and co-driver?[/QUOTE]
Ever hear of how Possum Borne was killed?
Many rallies that don't allow recce are because the roads are used for logging and can only be closed race day. I've come face to face with speeding logging truck on narrow icy roads while on recce. Not amusing. Recce itself has dangers.
[QUOTE=RallyManiac]You obviously have no clue how the world runs rallies.[/QUOTE]
Yet I've competed in rallies internationally and in FIA listed events but you know more cause you've watched a couple and have 'WRC' on your license plate. I must be an idiot.
You admit you don't have $ to compete but are trying to tell those who are that they are slow and how to spend their money and time so its more exciting for you to watch. Why not bitch about how slow US prepped cars are? You'll get a more favorable response.
| bjorn240 | 10-26-2006 10:44 PM |
Quoting Bill Wood, quoting Colin McRae at the X Games:
'Colin says, "Those [Jemba notes] are just fine! They should use them on the WRC and eliminate the need for pace noting! Everyone will have the same information!"'
Colin said the same thing to me and Travis - and pointed out that an additional benefit is that because of the slight bit of uncertainty, you have to drive with just a smidge more tail-out attitude, which the fans like.
'Colin says, "Those [Jemba notes] are just fine! They should use them on the WRC and eliminate the need for pace noting! Everyone will have the same information!"'
Colin said the same thing to me and Travis - and pointed out that an additional benefit is that because of the slight bit of uncertainty, you have to drive with just a smidge more tail-out attitude, which the fans like.
| datageek | 10-26-2006 10:49 PM |
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15765922]
Ever hear of how Possum Borne was killed?[/QUOTE]
On a hillclimb, not a rally?
Point taken, though. It was a recce accident. However, he was killed by another competitor being on the wrong side of the road, not any civilian traffic.
I would point out that as long as everyone is following the rules doing a recce is no more dangerous than driving on the same road any other day of the year.
Ever hear of how Possum Borne was killed?[/QUOTE]
On a hillclimb, not a rally?
Point taken, though. It was a recce accident. However, he was killed by another competitor being on the wrong side of the road, not any civilian traffic.
I would point out that as long as everyone is following the rules doing a recce is no more dangerous than driving on the same road any other day of the year.
| akuhner | 10-27-2006 09:12 AM |
[QUOTE=datageek;15766170]
I would point out that as long as everyone is following the rules doing a recce is no more dangerous than driving on the same road any other day of the year.[/QUOTE]
At Rally NY we had problems with this, but we got lucky and nothing bad happened. My team followed all the rules, only to come across several other teams going the wrong way at very high speeds. The marshall at the entrance to the stage did nothing about it until I made them question the other driver. Then again, this was RNY, which has a high tollerance for the macho antics of a certian group of rallists who were the event's bread and butter. And RNY is no more...
I would point out that as long as everyone is following the rules doing a recce is no more dangerous than driving on the same road any other day of the year.[/QUOTE]
At Rally NY we had problems with this, but we got lucky and nothing bad happened. My team followed all the rules, only to come across several other teams going the wrong way at very high speeds. The marshall at the entrance to the stage did nothing about it until I made them question the other driver. Then again, this was RNY, which has a high tollerance for the macho antics of a certian group of rallists who were the event's bread and butter. And RNY is no more...
| rallymaniac | 10-27-2006 12:54 PM |
[QUOTE=Evo3Codriver;15765922]
RallyManiac, you sure you aren't related to RallyNut on SpecialStage.com?
Yet I've competed in rallies internationally and in FIA listed events but you know more cause you've watched a couple and have 'WRC' on your license plate. I must be an idiot.
[/QUOTE]
No i'm not on the SpecialStage forum.
And why does it matter what i have on my plate? :rolleyes:
What does that have to do with anything?? to be specific it says "WRC FAN" and i have it because i am a fan of this sport.
Whad does your say? Mothers name? Whatever :alien:
I don't know more because i watched something. I actually talk to drivers who do it here and people with far more achievements in rally than you'll have in a lifetime that would like to come here but don't want to do it.
Why should they put down the show and risk their life.
You don't want progress in NA rally? Fine.
RallyManiac, you sure you aren't related to RallyNut on SpecialStage.com?
Yet I've competed in rallies internationally and in FIA listed events but you know more cause you've watched a couple and have 'WRC' on your license plate. I must be an idiot.
[/QUOTE]
No i'm not on the SpecialStage forum.
And why does it matter what i have on my plate? :rolleyes:
What does that have to do with anything?? to be specific it says "WRC FAN" and i have it because i am a fan of this sport.
Whad does your say? Mothers name? Whatever :alien:
I don't know more because i watched something. I actually talk to drivers who do it here and people with far more achievements in rally than you'll have in a lifetime that would like to come here but don't want to do it.
Why should they put down the show and risk their life.
You don't want progress in NA rally? Fine.
| akuhner | 10-27-2006 01:06 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15772409]What does that have to do with anything?? to be specific it says "WRC FAN" and i have it because i am a fan of this sport.
[/QUOTE]
The irony of this arguement is that we could actually achive FIA level rallying around here... if we only had a few million more North Americans who love WRC as much as you do!
[/QUOTE]
The irony of this arguement is that we could actually achive FIA level rallying around here... if we only had a few million more North Americans who love WRC as much as you do!
| Doug Woods | 10-27-2006 01:16 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15766123]Quoting Bill Wood, quoting Colin McRae at the X Games:
'Colin says, "Those [Jemba notes] are just fine! They should use them on the WRC and eliminate the need for pace noting! Everyone will have the same information!"'
Colin said the same thing to me and Travis - and pointed out that an additional benefit is that because of the slight bit of uncertainty, you have to drive with just a smidge more tail-out attitude, which the fans like.[/QUOTE]
I had heard those same comments and find them quite interesting.
The top WRC competitors now have such perfect notes (not just due to their note making experience but also due to the fact that as they return to events year after year and usually run the same stages, that they get to further refine their notes each year).
Thus, the spectacle of rallying has long ago been lost from the WRC and it has become more or less sprint racing through repeated stages.
Doug Woods
'Colin says, "Those [Jemba notes] are just fine! They should use them on the WRC and eliminate the need for pace noting! Everyone will have the same information!"'
Colin said the same thing to me and Travis - and pointed out that an additional benefit is that because of the slight bit of uncertainty, you have to drive with just a smidge more tail-out attitude, which the fans like.[/QUOTE]
I had heard those same comments and find them quite interesting.
The top WRC competitors now have such perfect notes (not just due to their note making experience but also due to the fact that as they return to events year after year and usually run the same stages, that they get to further refine their notes each year).
Thus, the spectacle of rallying has long ago been lost from the WRC and it has become more or less sprint racing through repeated stages.
Doug Woods
| rallymaniac | 10-27-2006 01:24 PM |
Actually this is more twisted than just pace notes.
I remember in 2000 or 1999 Polish driver Krzystof Holowczyc wanted to come here and do a rally or two. Everything was set, his own Subaru was almost on the plane to Chicago and it turned out that he won't be comming.
Someone from SoA didn't want to have a former European Champion in private car schooling their Subaru America Team drivers on the stages. They called Paul Turner, Holowczyc's manager, also affiliated with Subaru but in Europe, and "influenced" his decission change :rolleyes:
I remember in 2000 or 1999 Polish driver Krzystof Holowczyc wanted to come here and do a rally or two. Everything was set, his own Subaru was almost on the plane to Chicago and it turned out that he won't be comming.
Someone from SoA didn't want to have a former European Champion in private car schooling their Subaru America Team drivers on the stages. They called Paul Turner, Holowczyc's manager, also affiliated with Subaru but in Europe, and "influenced" his decission change :rolleyes:
| Morison | 10-27-2006 02:03 PM |
All this back and forth isn't going to change anything.
Not having Recce and pacenoting experience is a challenge to anyone looking at a PWRC or WRC effort.
Not having tarmac experience is a challenge to anyone looking at a PWRC or WRC effort.
The people that are 'handling' Travis' career are well aware of both of the above and likely have a plan to work on those skills.
The biggest challenge to a 'full' WRC ride might actually be finding a team that could deal with hi s likely desire to continue his motorcycle activities.
Not having Recce and pacenoting experience is a challenge to anyone looking at a PWRC or WRC effort.
Not having tarmac experience is a challenge to anyone looking at a PWRC or WRC effort.
The people that are 'handling' Travis' career are well aware of both of the above and likely have a plan to work on those skills.
The biggest challenge to a 'full' WRC ride might actually be finding a team that could deal with hi s likely desire to continue his motorcycle activities.
| RichardM | 10-27-2006 03:19 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15772858]Actually this is more twisted than just pace notes.
I remember in 2000 or 1999 Polish driver Krzystof Holowczyc wanted to come here and do a rally or two. Everything was set, his own Subaru was almost on the plane to Chicago and it turned out that he won't be comming.
Someone from SoA didn't want to have a former European Champion in private car schooling their Subaru America Team drivers on the stages. They called Paul Turner, Holowczyc's manager, also affiliated with Subaru but in Europe, and "influenced" his decission change :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
You may be off on your dates. A quick review of the results from 1999 and 2000 make it look like SoA did not have a team. Towards the end of 2000 more Subarus were showing up but some guy from Canada was driving one about then. (Pat Richard)
I remember in 2000 or 1999 Polish driver Krzystof Holowczyc wanted to come here and do a rally or two. Everything was set, his own Subaru was almost on the plane to Chicago and it turned out that he won't be comming.
Someone from SoA didn't want to have a former European Champion in private car schooling their Subaru America Team drivers on the stages. They called Paul Turner, Holowczyc's manager, also affiliated with Subaru but in Europe, and "influenced" his decission change :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
You may be off on your dates. A quick review of the results from 1999 and 2000 make it look like SoA did not have a team. Towards the end of 2000 more Subarus were showing up but some guy from Canada was driving one about then. (Pat Richard)
| OBShahn | 10-27-2006 03:22 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15772409]No i'm not on the SpecialStage forum.
And why does it matter what i have on my plate? :rolleyes:
What does that have to do with anything?? to be specific it says "WRC FAN" and i have it because i am a fan of this sport.
Whad does your say? Mothers name? Whatever :alien:
I don't know more because i watched something. I actually talk to drivers who do it here and people with far more achievements in rally than you'll have in a lifetime that would like to come here but don't want to do it.
Why should they put down the show and risk their life.
You don't want progress in NA rally? Fine.[/QUOTE]
Just wow...
Since you are talking to these rally gods how about some names.
It would be nice since your entire basis of information is on heresay from alleged super expert sources that are so great you dismiss current organizers and highly experienced competitors.....
And why does it matter what i have on my plate? :rolleyes:
What does that have to do with anything?? to be specific it says "WRC FAN" and i have it because i am a fan of this sport.
Whad does your say? Mothers name? Whatever :alien:
I don't know more because i watched something. I actually talk to drivers who do it here and people with far more achievements in rally than you'll have in a lifetime that would like to come here but don't want to do it.
Why should they put down the show and risk their life.
You don't want progress in NA rally? Fine.[/QUOTE]
Just wow...
Since you are talking to these rally gods how about some names.
It would be nice since your entire basis of information is on heresay from alleged super expert sources that are so great you dismiss current organizers and highly experienced competitors.....
| rallymaniac | 10-27-2006 03:41 PM |
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15774668]You do realize that you are being snotty to Dave Shindle right? Arguably one of the top 20 co-drivers in the US/Canada. An individual that has co-driven countless events, in all three organizations, for many different levels of driver and car.
Someone that has recce experience and enough experience with notes to actually be one of the people that helps make the organizers notes using the JEMBA system.
Geez, you're arguing with someone that has a simply ridiculous amount of experience about the very thing in which he has the most experience....
I'm not trying to say that by not being an "expert" you don't have anything to contribute but at some point open your eyes. You now have competitors and organizers from two different countries trying to explain the situation and you just dismiss them...[/QUOTE]
I don't dismiss them. Actually this thread is pretty educating.
So far we've learned that:
- some people like JAMBA notes,
- Colin thinks, that they are better for the show (i understand him, his the old school guy that used to trhow the car into every corner sideways, not take the smooth line, like it is done today),
- JAMBA keeps more people in due to the lower cost,
- People are too slow to utilize full pacenotes anyway,
But after all this thread was about Travis and WRC and as someone said just a little up, there is great dissadvantage for Travis for being unable to work with them.
I'm sorry, I don't know Dave Shindle, didn't have a pleasure to meet him, but i'm glad he likes what he's doing.
Someone that has recce experience and enough experience with notes to actually be one of the people that helps make the organizers notes using the JEMBA system.
Geez, you're arguing with someone that has a simply ridiculous amount of experience about the very thing in which he has the most experience....
I'm not trying to say that by not being an "expert" you don't have anything to contribute but at some point open your eyes. You now have competitors and organizers from two different countries trying to explain the situation and you just dismiss them...[/QUOTE]
I don't dismiss them. Actually this thread is pretty educating.
So far we've learned that:
- some people like JAMBA notes,
- Colin thinks, that they are better for the show (i understand him, his the old school guy that used to trhow the car into every corner sideways, not take the smooth line, like it is done today),
- JAMBA keeps more people in due to the lower cost,
- People are too slow to utilize full pacenotes anyway,
But after all this thread was about Travis and WRC and as someone said just a little up, there is great dissadvantage for Travis for being unable to work with them.
I'm sorry, I don't know Dave Shindle, didn't have a pleasure to meet him, but i'm glad he likes what he's doing.
| rallymaniac | 10-27-2006 03:43 PM |
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15774668]Just wow...
Since you are talking to these rally gods how about some names.
It would be nice since your entire basis of information is on heresay from alleged super expert sources that are so great you dismiss current organizers and highly experienced competitors.....[/QUOTE]
got you before edit :-)
Sure why not. May be litte too Polish for you, but oh well.
Krzysztof Holowczyc - 6th in WRC Argentina (1999), European Rally Champion in 1997 and 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Janusz Kulig (RIP) - 1st in PCWRC in Sweden 2003, 2nd place in European Rally Championship in 2003, 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Tomasz Czopik - Polish Rally Champion in 2002
Michal Bebenek - 2nd Place in Polish Rally Championship 2005 and 2006
These are people that are reputable drivers in the Europe and in the World.
Here is the crew that do rally here:
Marcin Kowalski - Regional Group G6 Champion in 2005
Robert Borowicz - Regional Rally champion 2006, Guy who was able to get 5th and 6th times in the LSPR with an old car, only one suspension setup and limited funds.
Marek Podoluch - Driver and Co-Driver
Kazimierz Pudelek- Driver and co-Driver
Mariusz Malik - Co-driver
Greg Drozd - Driver
Jaroslaw Sozanski - Driver, just got his 2dn place in his group in his first start ever here.
These are the guys that could benefit from the pacenotes to be even faster.
Go to Google video and find Borowicz's videos and see how much he has to slow down and back off in some of the corners because he doesn't know what's behind.
Satisfied now?
Since you are talking to these rally gods how about some names.
It would be nice since your entire basis of information is on heresay from alleged super expert sources that are so great you dismiss current organizers and highly experienced competitors.....[/QUOTE]
got you before edit :-)
Sure why not. May be litte too Polish for you, but oh well.
Krzysztof Holowczyc - 6th in WRC Argentina (1999), European Rally Champion in 1997 and 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Janusz Kulig (RIP) - 1st in PCWRC in Sweden 2003, 2nd place in European Rally Championship in 2003, 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Tomasz Czopik - Polish Rally Champion in 2002
Michal Bebenek - 2nd Place in Polish Rally Championship 2005 and 2006
These are people that are reputable drivers in the Europe and in the World.
Here is the crew that do rally here:
Marcin Kowalski - Regional Group G6 Champion in 2005
Robert Borowicz - Regional Rally champion 2006, Guy who was able to get 5th and 6th times in the LSPR with an old car, only one suspension setup and limited funds.
Marek Podoluch - Driver and Co-Driver
Kazimierz Pudelek- Driver and co-Driver
Mariusz Malik - Co-driver
Greg Drozd - Driver
Jaroslaw Sozanski - Driver, just got his 2dn place in his group in his first start ever here.
These are the guys that could benefit from the pacenotes to be even faster.
Go to Google video and find Borowicz's videos and see how much he has to slow down and back off in some of the corners because he doesn't know what's behind.
Satisfied now?
| Morison | 10-27-2006 04:00 PM |
I'd suggest that:
- no one really 'likes' Jemba, but rather they prefer Jemba to blind rally
- The top teams (the ones travelling the full championship) would tend to prefer recce, if the event schedule can be adjusted to keep a similar timeframe. (ex. Kill the PIR stages at Oregon and give us all friday day to recce)
- I KNOW that Jemba is used by a number of drivers in the world as a starting point for recce notes, they are closer to pace notes than many might think, but are 'dumbed down' a bit. (no distances under 30m)
- The extra speed of pace notes has a lot more to do with the pairing and teamwork in the car and being comfortable with the language and terms being used than it does the notes themselves. ithout a doubt, driving the road to get a feel for current conditions has a huge impact.
- Any driver that finds themselves thinking of the road and trying to remember what's coming up, is not making the best use of pace notes. Similarly, if you are using road reading skills during the stage, your notes and possibly teamwork need some attention.
- even slow drivers will get an extra level of confidence from recce *and* pacenoting.
- no one really 'likes' Jemba, but rather they prefer Jemba to blind rally
- The top teams (the ones travelling the full championship) would tend to prefer recce, if the event schedule can be adjusted to keep a similar timeframe. (ex. Kill the PIR stages at Oregon and give us all friday day to recce)
- I KNOW that Jemba is used by a number of drivers in the world as a starting point for recce notes, they are closer to pace notes than many might think, but are 'dumbed down' a bit. (no distances under 30m)
- The extra speed of pace notes has a lot more to do with the pairing and teamwork in the car and being comfortable with the language and terms being used than it does the notes themselves. ithout a doubt, driving the road to get a feel for current conditions has a huge impact.
- Any driver that finds themselves thinking of the road and trying to remember what's coming up, is not making the best use of pace notes. Similarly, if you are using road reading skills during the stage, your notes and possibly teamwork need some attention.
- even slow drivers will get an extra level of confidence from recce *and* pacenoting.
| RichardM | 10-27-2006 04:45 PM |
By the way rallymaniac, if you wish to run down US rally and the organizers, take it over to Special Stage. We are used to it. And we really do listen.
| rallymaniac | 10-27-2006 04:54 PM |
[QUOTE=RichardM;15775855]By the way rallymaniac, if you wish to run down US rally and the organizers, take it over to Special Stage. We are used to it. And we really do listen.[/QUOTE]
nah, i don't have time for another forum :lol:
nah, i don't have time for another forum :lol:
| bjorn240 | 10-27-2006 04:57 PM |
[QUOTE=Morison;15775241] they are closer to pace notes than many might think, but are 'dumbed down' a bit. (no distances under 30m)[/QUOTE]
This is a function of the preferences of the people who make the notes in America. The system is able to resolve and display distances as low as 10 meters.
- Christian
This is a function of the preferences of the people who make the notes in America. The system is able to resolve and display distances as low as 10 meters.
- Christian
| RichardM | 10-27-2006 05:32 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15775944]nah, i don't have time for another forum :lol:[/QUOTE]
specialstage.com/forums
More about rally than you will ever know.
specialstage.com/forums
More about rally than you will ever know.
| Morison | 10-27-2006 05:34 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15775986]This is a function of the preferences of the people who make the notes in America. The system is able to resolve and display distances as low as 10 meters.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
So I understand, and I'd LOVE to see that resolution- if accurate - in the RA books!
- Christian[/QUOTE]
So I understand, and I'd LOVE to see that resolution- if accurate - in the RA books!
| OBShahn | 10-27-2006 10:25 PM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15774998]got you before edit :-)
Sure why not. May be litte too Polish for you, but oh well.
Krzysztof Holowczyc - 6th in WRC Argentina (1999), European Rally Champion in 1997 and 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Janusz Kulig (RIP) - 1st in PCWRC in Sweden 2003, 2nd place in European Rally Championship in 2003, 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Tomasz Czopik - Polish Rally Champion in 2002
Michal Bebenek - 2nd Place in Polish Rally Championship 2005 and 2006
These are people that are reputable drivers in the Europe and in the World.
Here is the crew that do rally here:
Marcin Kowalski - Regional Group G6 Champion in 2005
Robert Borowicz - Regional Rally champion 2006, Guy who was able to get 5th and 6th times in the LSPR with an old car, only one suspension setup and limited funds.
Marek Podoluch - Driver and Co-Driver
Kazimierz Pudelek- Driver and co-Driver
Mariusz Malik - Co-driver
Greg Drozd - Driver
Jaroslaw Sozanski - Driver, just got his 2dn place in his group in his first start ever here.
These are the guys that could benefit from the pacenotes to be even faster.
Go to Google video and find Borowicz's videos and see how much he has to slow down and back off in some of the corners because he doesn't know what's behind.
Satisfied now?[/QUOTE]
If I remember right Borowicz's is running an open car. I believe at one point both Matt Johnson and Tanner Foust were putting in better stage times.
I think there is a problem with driver's and how they handle different types of notes. While there are many drivers that would be faster on pace notes it is by and large because they would be willing to committ more because of memory. A great point of this is Dedomonics (sp?) at Maine. He had been pretty fast at other events but the language barrier and understanding the noting language (different from his own) kept him from committing to the notes. It wasn't as much as a confidence matter as it was understanding the system. At Maine they were able to go through the stages once and follow the JEMBA notes and get a feel for just what they meant and how that related to how they would note it. Obviously they were able to change things if they wanted as well but it would be interesting to see how he would have done at an other event after that. I would wager after being able to see first hand without having the complication of being at speed he was able to itnernalize the objectiveness of JEMBA much better into his own decision process.
In many aspects the JEMBA system has the potential to be better than pace notes. While it may lack in personal language touches it is objective. All 6s are 6s no matter how they appear. Even WRC drivers have to correct their notes sometimes because the stages are deceptive and they miss noted them. Markko Martin at Japan is a classic yet recent example.
In many cases drivers that are convinced they be faster with pace notes are drivers that are more willing to committ to something because they saw it with their own eyes. The famous story of Ari Vatannen running with a journalist as his navvie since he knew the roads so well comes to mind. Simply put many drivers are unwilling to trust the JEMBA notes and that is why they slow for corners and won't commit even 90%.
This is also the issue with hobbyist ralliers. They can't afford to crash the car so they keep a lot in reserve in the corners, so while it may be true they'd feel more comfortable committing if they had seen it and noted it themselves, driving a 4 like you really believe it is a 4 will make you just as fast....
As for the edit. I decided it wasn't my place to speak to Dave's credentials. Having only met him once briefly (Dave hasn't been to Cog the last three years and the problems of debuting a new car in 2005 at PPIHC kept the team occupied for the main part) I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
That said when it comes to the notes people like Christian, Dave, and Mr. Morrison do know what they are talking about. They have all ridden with some very fast guys and done recce as well as JEMBA...
Sure why not. May be litte too Polish for you, but oh well.
Krzysztof Holowczyc - 6th in WRC Argentina (1999), European Rally Champion in 1997 and 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Janusz Kulig (RIP) - 1st in PCWRC in Sweden 2003, 2nd place in European Rally Championship in 2003, 3 times Polish Rally Champion.
Tomasz Czopik - Polish Rally Champion in 2002
Michal Bebenek - 2nd Place in Polish Rally Championship 2005 and 2006
These are people that are reputable drivers in the Europe and in the World.
Here is the crew that do rally here:
Marcin Kowalski - Regional Group G6 Champion in 2005
Robert Borowicz - Regional Rally champion 2006, Guy who was able to get 5th and 6th times in the LSPR with an old car, only one suspension setup and limited funds.
Marek Podoluch - Driver and Co-Driver
Kazimierz Pudelek- Driver and co-Driver
Mariusz Malik - Co-driver
Greg Drozd - Driver
Jaroslaw Sozanski - Driver, just got his 2dn place in his group in his first start ever here.
These are the guys that could benefit from the pacenotes to be even faster.
Go to Google video and find Borowicz's videos and see how much he has to slow down and back off in some of the corners because he doesn't know what's behind.
Satisfied now?[/QUOTE]
If I remember right Borowicz's is running an open car. I believe at one point both Matt Johnson and Tanner Foust were putting in better stage times.
I think there is a problem with driver's and how they handle different types of notes. While there are many drivers that would be faster on pace notes it is by and large because they would be willing to committ more because of memory. A great point of this is Dedomonics (sp?) at Maine. He had been pretty fast at other events but the language barrier and understanding the noting language (different from his own) kept him from committing to the notes. It wasn't as much as a confidence matter as it was understanding the system. At Maine they were able to go through the stages once and follow the JEMBA notes and get a feel for just what they meant and how that related to how they would note it. Obviously they were able to change things if they wanted as well but it would be interesting to see how he would have done at an other event after that. I would wager after being able to see first hand without having the complication of being at speed he was able to itnernalize the objectiveness of JEMBA much better into his own decision process.
In many aspects the JEMBA system has the potential to be better than pace notes. While it may lack in personal language touches it is objective. All 6s are 6s no matter how they appear. Even WRC drivers have to correct their notes sometimes because the stages are deceptive and they miss noted them. Markko Martin at Japan is a classic yet recent example.
In many cases drivers that are convinced they be faster with pace notes are drivers that are more willing to committ to something because they saw it with their own eyes. The famous story of Ari Vatannen running with a journalist as his navvie since he knew the roads so well comes to mind. Simply put many drivers are unwilling to trust the JEMBA notes and that is why they slow for corners and won't commit even 90%.
This is also the issue with hobbyist ralliers. They can't afford to crash the car so they keep a lot in reserve in the corners, so while it may be true they'd feel more comfortable committing if they had seen it and noted it themselves, driving a 4 like you really believe it is a 4 will make you just as fast....
As for the edit. I decided it wasn't my place to speak to Dave's credentials. Having only met him once briefly (Dave hasn't been to Cog the last three years and the problems of debuting a new car in 2005 at PPIHC kept the team occupied for the main part) I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
That said when it comes to the notes people like Christian, Dave, and Mr. Morrison do know what they are talking about. They have all ridden with some very fast guys and done recce as well as JEMBA...
| Morison | 10-27-2006 11:25 PM |
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15779041]While there are many drivers that would be faster on pace notes it is by and large because they would be willing to committ more because of memory.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. The commitmenk comes from KNOWING that the note means what it says. Without opening up the 'how objective is JEMBA' discussion again, it has been said that if you [b]fully[/b] commit to jemba notes, it becomes a matter of when you go off, not if. As I said before, if you spend time and mental ability remembering the road ahead ... you're not making the most of your notes and you're probably loosing speed.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15779041]A great point of this is Dedomonics (sp?) at Maine. It wasn't as much as a confidence matter as it was understanding the system. At Maine they were able to go through the stages once and follow the JEMBA notes and get a feel for just what they meant and how that related to how they would note it.[/quote]
It took me several events to get a feel for the syntax and mindset of the JEMBA notes, and I find that knowing which team authored the notes helps me understand them better. The details will be different on the same stretch of road given different noting teams. That said, you'll never find a right that should have been left, and corner grades are prety consistant.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15779041]That said when it comes to the notes people like Christian, Dave, and [i]Mr. Morrison[/i] do know what they are talking about. They have all ridden with some very fast guys and done recce as well as JEMBA...[/QUOTE]
Keith would have sufficed ... although I realise it isn't in my sig. :-)
I disagree. The commitmenk comes from KNOWING that the note means what it says. Without opening up the 'how objective is JEMBA' discussion again, it has been said that if you [b]fully[/b] commit to jemba notes, it becomes a matter of when you go off, not if. As I said before, if you spend time and mental ability remembering the road ahead ... you're not making the most of your notes and you're probably loosing speed.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15779041]A great point of this is Dedomonics (sp?) at Maine. It wasn't as much as a confidence matter as it was understanding the system. At Maine they were able to go through the stages once and follow the JEMBA notes and get a feel for just what they meant and how that related to how they would note it.[/quote]
It took me several events to get a feel for the syntax and mindset of the JEMBA notes, and I find that knowing which team authored the notes helps me understand them better. The details will be different on the same stretch of road given different noting teams. That said, you'll never find a right that should have been left, and corner grades are prety consistant.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15779041]That said when it comes to the notes people like Christian, Dave, and [i]Mr. Morrison[/i] do know what they are talking about. They have all ridden with some very fast guys and done recce as well as JEMBA...[/QUOTE]
Keith would have sufficed ... although I realise it isn't in my sig. :-)
| Evo3Codriver | 10-28-2006 12:23 AM |
Thread Heist
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Wow, what a threadjack!
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15737839]Janusz Kulig who was here in 2002 in Chattanooga for Cherokee Trials .... pointed out that he never felt so much danger as when he was running without his own pace notes in that rally.
[/QUOTE]
I was there, and in 2001, and in 2000. In 2001 Cherokee Trails started allowing recce.
[url]http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/cherokee02.html[/url]
"The International Cherokee Trails Rally a recced and pacenoted event, and therefore entrants have the option of running the stage roads in advance of the actual rally to get acclimated to the roads."
So why now didn't Janusz have notes?
What Jemba has done is given our teams a stepping stone from tulip rallies to writing pacenotes. I remember our first attempt writing pacenotes before Jemba came here and we heavily relied on tulip-type instructions. Now that Jemba is the 'norm', its much easier for teams to create their own pacenotes when they get the opportunity.
Personally I wouldn't want anything less than '30' in the notes. At hauling ass speeds you can't say 'thirty' (2 syllables) in the time it takes to travel the distance. I prefer 'and' and 'into' or just calling the next instruction. There has to be a given distance that is given as 'nothing' or no note that keeps the timing of calling the instructions correct.
'Mr. Morrision'. Hehe.
Funny you didn't mention Doug Woods whose avoided the heated discussion but is the master codriver po-bah here.
Jemba is technically neat stuff. Arne is a technical wiz and I still don't get how the 3 dimensional accellerometer can be so precise. It was neat to finish measuring a stage and then have Jemba map it 2-dimensionally to insure we followed the correct roads. Precise. And to have it write the notes for the opposite direction without actully having to measure each direction. His 'Virtual Codriver' is cool too. And of course Coralbas rock.
Only Mr. Morrision has mentioned yet that Jemba is pretty uniform from event to event. He's used em enough to recognize some of the objective differences that the authors can make (easiest difference is probably off-cambers; I know who prefers to include them and which author does not) Much better than having distances noted in 'Lukes' like PerceNeige (Eh, Mr. Morrision?) or the notes provided at RallyNY.
Travis seems a bright guy and pick up pacenotes quickly. It benefit him greatly to have someone savy on all the tricks of the trade tutor him before he dives in (or double back-flips) or else he'll likely fall back on Jemba and not get the full value of being able to create your own personalized notes. There are so much more detail that can be included to go faster (and brake at proper distances) than most teams realize being given a blank notebook after a couple years reading/listening to stagenotes. Hope he can make the best of that.
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15737839]Janusz Kulig who was here in 2002 in Chattanooga for Cherokee Trials .... pointed out that he never felt so much danger as when he was running without his own pace notes in that rally.
[/QUOTE]
I was there, and in 2001, and in 2000. In 2001 Cherokee Trails started allowing recce.
[url]http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/cherokee02.html[/url]
"The International Cherokee Trails Rally a recced and pacenoted event, and therefore entrants have the option of running the stage roads in advance of the actual rally to get acclimated to the roads."
So why now didn't Janusz have notes?
What Jemba has done is given our teams a stepping stone from tulip rallies to writing pacenotes. I remember our first attempt writing pacenotes before Jemba came here and we heavily relied on tulip-type instructions. Now that Jemba is the 'norm', its much easier for teams to create their own pacenotes when they get the opportunity.
Personally I wouldn't want anything less than '30' in the notes. At hauling ass speeds you can't say 'thirty' (2 syllables) in the time it takes to travel the distance. I prefer 'and' and 'into' or just calling the next instruction. There has to be a given distance that is given as 'nothing' or no note that keeps the timing of calling the instructions correct.
'Mr. Morrision'. Hehe.
Funny you didn't mention Doug Woods whose avoided the heated discussion but is the master codriver po-bah here.
Jemba is technically neat stuff. Arne is a technical wiz and I still don't get how the 3 dimensional accellerometer can be so precise. It was neat to finish measuring a stage and then have Jemba map it 2-dimensionally to insure we followed the correct roads. Precise. And to have it write the notes for the opposite direction without actully having to measure each direction. His 'Virtual Codriver' is cool too. And of course Coralbas rock.
Only Mr. Morrision has mentioned yet that Jemba is pretty uniform from event to event. He's used em enough to recognize some of the objective differences that the authors can make (easiest difference is probably off-cambers; I know who prefers to include them and which author does not) Much better than having distances noted in 'Lukes' like PerceNeige (Eh, Mr. Morrision?) or the notes provided at RallyNY.
Travis seems a bright guy and pick up pacenotes quickly. It benefit him greatly to have someone savy on all the tricks of the trade tutor him before he dives in (or double back-flips) or else he'll likely fall back on Jemba and not get the full value of being able to create your own personalized notes. There are so much more detail that can be included to go faster (and brake at proper distances) than most teams realize being given a blank notebook after a couple years reading/listening to stagenotes. Hope he can make the best of that.
| rallymaniac | 10-28-2006 12:33 AM |
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15779041]If I remember right Borowicz's is running an open car. I believe at one point both Matt Johnson and Tanner Foust were putting in better stage times.
[/QUOTE]
yes he is.
It all depends on the level of commitment to the Jemba.
I totally agree with previous post.
If you commit to Jemba it's just a matter of time to have serious "off"
[/QUOTE]
yes he is.
It all depends on the level of commitment to the Jemba.
I totally agree with previous post.
If you commit to Jemba it's just a matter of time to have serious "off"
| Mopho | 10-28-2006 12:47 AM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15780057]yes he is.
It all depends on the level of commitment to the Jemba.
I totally agree with previous post.
If you commit to Jemba it's just a matter of time to have serious "off"[/QUOTE]
If you commit to being fast at rally, it's just a matter of time before you have a serious off, regardless of the kinds of notes you use
It all depends on the level of commitment to the Jemba.
I totally agree with previous post.
If you commit to Jemba it's just a matter of time to have serious "off"[/QUOTE]
If you commit to being fast at rally, it's just a matter of time before you have a serious off, regardless of the kinds of notes you use
| Evo3Codriver | 10-28-2006 01:00 AM |
[QUOTE=rallymaniac;15780057]If you commit to Jemba it's just a matter of time to have serious "off"[/QUOTE]
No different than pacenotes in my opinion. But much better then not long ago that we'd be sometimes flat-out around blind curves on tulip rallies.
Scary thing about pacenotes is there is so much room for error in writing or re-writing them.
The Jemba authors have as many passes on the stage to measure and edit the notes as necessary to ensure they are accurate and fine tuned. For teams showing upto new rally, or their first time at a specific rally or even new stages added to a rally they've done many times, you only get 2 passes to have peferect notes. Sometimes there are distractions. It happens; team ahead stops to take a look at tricky section and you lose your concentration or groove, discussion on a note interupts writing following notes as driver keeps driving, codriver attempts to add landmarks or distances while driver keeps driving calling instructions that get missed or jumbled, and of course .... pure brain-farting.
Then, after a looong day of recce, team goes out for team dinner, maybe registration and scrutineering, prepping the car, long drive to lodging so the codriver doesn't start re-writing his notes until wee-hours of morning. Its not difficult to make errors copying your notes and sometimes trying to decifer what was written.
In these aspects, I'd trust Jemba over at least first-attempt pace notes.
No different than pacenotes in my opinion. But much better then not long ago that we'd be sometimes flat-out around blind curves on tulip rallies.
Scary thing about pacenotes is there is so much room for error in writing or re-writing them.
The Jemba authors have as many passes on the stage to measure and edit the notes as necessary to ensure they are accurate and fine tuned. For teams showing upto new rally, or their first time at a specific rally or even new stages added to a rally they've done many times, you only get 2 passes to have peferect notes. Sometimes there are distractions. It happens; team ahead stops to take a look at tricky section and you lose your concentration or groove, discussion on a note interupts writing following notes as driver keeps driving, codriver attempts to add landmarks or distances while driver keeps driving calling instructions that get missed or jumbled, and of course .... pure brain-farting.
Then, after a looong day of recce, team goes out for team dinner, maybe registration and scrutineering, prepping the car, long drive to lodging so the codriver doesn't start re-writing his notes until wee-hours of morning. Its not difficult to make errors copying your notes and sometimes trying to decifer what was written.
In these aspects, I'd trust Jemba over at least first-attempt pace notes.
| OBShahn | 10-28-2006 02:25 AM |
[QUOTE=Morison;15779529]I disagree. The commitmenk comes from KNOWING that the note means what it says. Without opening up the 'how objective is JEMBA' discussion again, it has been said that if you [b]fully[/b] commit to jemba notes, it becomes a matter of when you go off, not if. As I said before, if you spend time and mental ability remembering the road ahead ... you're not making the most of your notes and you're probably loosing speed. [/QUOTE]
I think we could agree that there are very few teams committing more than 80% to the JEMBA notes. The very fact that you guys, tanner, matt, and bang bang are able to beat Open and Group N cars speaks to the drivers ability to control the car in the turns and willingness to attack and commit. Until recently there have been very few drivers in the field showing similiar committment. The last couple of years have seen more drivers emerge as more fully committed and looking to find a balance in the last 10% of comittment and figuring out how far is really too far.
[QUOTE=Morison;15779529]It took me several events to get a feel for the syntax and mindset of the JEMBA notes, and I find that knowing which team authored the notes helps me understand them better. The details will be different on the same stretch of road given different noting teams. That said, you'll never find a right that should have been left, and corner grades are prety consistant.
Keith would have sufficed ... although I realise it isn't in my sig. :-)[/QUOTE]
Given your experience how many events do you think it would take to learn how to properly and accurately note a road (I believe you drive as well as co-drive no?) without experience running something like JEMBA? Reading a road is a difficult skill, so is disecting it accurately into enough information to describe it without overwhelming yourself. JEMBA for better or worse provides a solid baseline.
Cog this year on the stage that Travis rolled on last year has a tricky junction. In the notes it was a little confusing, in the route book it was described perfectly, so there is some subjectivity but a right is a right and a left is a left and 99% of the time a 6 will be a 6 and a 3 a 3 and very few drivers are event close to driving a those 3s at 80%.
As for Mr. Morrison v Keith, it will be Mr. Morrison or Keith Morrison until I atleast get a chance to shake your hand or introduce myself. So unless you come to Cog or I have more time/money in law school....
I think we could agree that there are very few teams committing more than 80% to the JEMBA notes. The very fact that you guys, tanner, matt, and bang bang are able to beat Open and Group N cars speaks to the drivers ability to control the car in the turns and willingness to attack and commit. Until recently there have been very few drivers in the field showing similiar committment. The last couple of years have seen more drivers emerge as more fully committed and looking to find a balance in the last 10% of comittment and figuring out how far is really too far.
[QUOTE=Morison;15779529]It took me several events to get a feel for the syntax and mindset of the JEMBA notes, and I find that knowing which team authored the notes helps me understand them better. The details will be different on the same stretch of road given different noting teams. That said, you'll never find a right that should have been left, and corner grades are prety consistant.
Keith would have sufficed ... although I realise it isn't in my sig. :-)[/QUOTE]
Given your experience how many events do you think it would take to learn how to properly and accurately note a road (I believe you drive as well as co-drive no?) without experience running something like JEMBA? Reading a road is a difficult skill, so is disecting it accurately into enough information to describe it without overwhelming yourself. JEMBA for better or worse provides a solid baseline.
Cog this year on the stage that Travis rolled on last year has a tricky junction. In the notes it was a little confusing, in the route book it was described perfectly, so there is some subjectivity but a right is a right and a left is a left and 99% of the time a 6 will be a 6 and a 3 a 3 and very few drivers are event close to driving a those 3s at 80%.
As for Mr. Morrison v Keith, it will be Mr. Morrison or Keith Morrison until I atleast get a chance to shake your hand or introduce myself. So unless you come to Cog or I have more time/money in law school....
| Morison | 10-28-2006 01:52 PM |
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]I think we could agree that there are very few teams committing more than 80% to the JEMBA notes. The very fact that you guys, tanner, matt, and bang bang are able to beat Open and Group N cars speaks to the drivers ability to control the car in the turns and willingness to attack and commit.[/quote]
I can't really speak to why we are able to beat open and grp N cars ... other than to say there are a lot of factors in going through a stage quickly, and commitment to notes is dependant on a number of other issues.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]Until recently there have been very few drivers in the field showing similar commitment.[/quote] Not being able to watch cars that often any more, and not seeing much 'mid pack' in-car ... it's tough to comment. I can say that we have far less commitment to Jemba than we do our own notes.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]Given your experience how many events do you think it would take to learn how to properly and accurately note a road (I believe you drive as well as co-drive no?) without experience running something like JEMBA?[/quote]
It's not a simple answer. We organized a regional event in 2003 as the first regional rally to allow recce and pace noting. We had a record 22 car entry, almost half were novice drivers and I think 6 were in their first event ever. We had 20 cars finish, the two non finishers were a mechanical failure and co-driver illness (not motion sickness IIRC.)
With some planning, forethought and RBR/CMR practice I think a novice team can make reasonable notes on their first event. That said, their noting will improve and change enough in a year that they are likely better off starting from scratch the following year rather than modify the old notes.
I have driven 7 events, all but 2 were pace notes, one was Jemba and one was Pat Richard authored organiser notes with a single pass. I had run a bunch of blind rallies as a co-driver and had pace noted two events before seeing Jemba notes.
My question is how you would define 'properly and accurately note a road�? Ultimately the notes have to provide the driver with enough description that they can make the most of their skills and car when attacking.
The level of detail will vary from driver to driver and from car to car, and � in reality � from one day to the next with the same driver to some degree.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653] Reading a road is a difficult skill, so is disecting it accurately into enough information to describe it without overwhelming yourself. JEMBA for better or worse provides a solid baseline. [/quote] The answer is to not get caught up in all the details when you start. I know of teams that openly admit to over noting roads (for where they are today)� and it slows them down. [/quote]
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]As for Mr. Morrison v Keith, it will be Mr. Morrison or Keith Morrison until I at least get a chance to shake your hand or introduce myself.[/QUOTE]
Either way, doesn�t bother me. But if you feel compelled to use my last name � pls spell it correctly :)
I can't really speak to why we are able to beat open and grp N cars ... other than to say there are a lot of factors in going through a stage quickly, and commitment to notes is dependant on a number of other issues.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]Until recently there have been very few drivers in the field showing similar commitment.[/quote] Not being able to watch cars that often any more, and not seeing much 'mid pack' in-car ... it's tough to comment. I can say that we have far less commitment to Jemba than we do our own notes.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]Given your experience how many events do you think it would take to learn how to properly and accurately note a road (I believe you drive as well as co-drive no?) without experience running something like JEMBA?[/quote]
It's not a simple answer. We organized a regional event in 2003 as the first regional rally to allow recce and pace noting. We had a record 22 car entry, almost half were novice drivers and I think 6 were in their first event ever. We had 20 cars finish, the two non finishers were a mechanical failure and co-driver illness (not motion sickness IIRC.)
With some planning, forethought and RBR/CMR practice I think a novice team can make reasonable notes on their first event. That said, their noting will improve and change enough in a year that they are likely better off starting from scratch the following year rather than modify the old notes.
I have driven 7 events, all but 2 were pace notes, one was Jemba and one was Pat Richard authored organiser notes with a single pass. I had run a bunch of blind rallies as a co-driver and had pace noted two events before seeing Jemba notes.
My question is how you would define 'properly and accurately note a road�? Ultimately the notes have to provide the driver with enough description that they can make the most of their skills and car when attacking.
The level of detail will vary from driver to driver and from car to car, and � in reality � from one day to the next with the same driver to some degree.
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653] Reading a road is a difficult skill, so is disecting it accurately into enough information to describe it without overwhelming yourself. JEMBA for better or worse provides a solid baseline. [/quote] The answer is to not get caught up in all the details when you start. I know of teams that openly admit to over noting roads (for where they are today)� and it slows them down. [/quote]
[QUOTE=OBShahn;15780653]As for Mr. Morrison v Keith, it will be Mr. Morrison or Keith Morrison until I at least get a chance to shake your hand or introduce myself.[/QUOTE]
Either way, doesn�t bother me. But if you feel compelled to use my last name � pls spell it correctly :)
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