Chủ Nhật, 6 tháng 11, 2016

AS front bar ? part 1

Smittys_STi 02-17-2005 02:08 PM

AS front bar ?
Tom? KC? Any other subaru autoX gurus?

I've been looking at the Whiteline XRD front bar (27mm) for my '04 STi ... has anyone run one before without modifications that would take the car out of stock trim? Do you think it would be beneficial at all?

I know my current whiteline 22mm bar could definitely be swapped to 24mm without a problem and would probably give good results. I'm just wondering if I should take the big jump and go all the way to the 27 .... thought?

All help is appreciated, thanks!
trhoppe 02-17-2005 02:09 PM

Bigger = better

-Tom
Smittys_STi 02-17-2005 02:23 PM

Any issues with fitment or busted links? Street driving?
AUTOwrXER 02-17-2005 10:35 PM

If you can wait about a month or so, there will be a much bigger and lighter bar on the market. It's currently a prototype, but it's what I would use in AS. More information coming soon...

Joel
trhoppe 02-17-2005 11:30 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]If you can wait about a month or so, there will be a much bigger and lighter bar on the market. It's currently a prototype, but it's what I would use in AS. More information coming soon...

Joel[/QUOTE]
I agree. That much bigger = that much better for AS

-Tom
Smittys_STi 02-18-2005 11:29 AM

what bigger/better bar are you talking about? please keep me posted!
rankink 02-18-2005 11:38 AM

Yeah, bigger than 27 mm? Very interested. Where is the Whiteline XRD front bar being sold at as well?
DrBiggly 02-18-2005 11:43 AM

I haven't heard anything about it myself; but it sounds like something worth waiting for. :)
DrBiggly 02-18-2005 11:43 AM

[QUOTE=rankink]Yeah, bigger than 27 mm? Very interested. Where is the Whiteline XRD front bar being sold at as well?[/QUOTE]
If you can't wait for the new "mystery" bar I'm betting Dale @ [url]www.boxer4racing.com[/url] could probably get the XRD bar. I don't remember if it's listed on the site or not but I'm pretty sure he's gotten them in the past. :)
rankink 02-18-2005 12:04 PM

[QUOTE=DrBiggly]If you can't wait for the new "mystery" bar I'm betting Dale @ [url]www.boxer4racing.com[/url] could probably get the XRD bar. I don't remember if it's listed on the site or not but I'm pretty sure he's gotten them in the past. :)[/QUOTE]

Oh no, I can wait. Just wanted to make sure I knew of every option out there.
AUTOwrXER 02-21-2005 11:21 AM

I'm working with a company in NC to design a 1 1/4" hollow bar (3/16" steel). The first prototype was off slightly, but weighed in almost exactly 1 lb heavier than the stock STi 20mm bar. By using moment of inertia calculations, the 1 1/4" hollow bar will result in 44% more force than the 27mm solid bar. I'm not sure what the solid bar weighs, but I'm sure it's heavier as well.

Once available, the bar will be sold exclusively through Stranoparts.com. The bar is an idea that Sam Strano and I came up with, and he will be the sole retailer of the design (much like he currently is with the Camaro bars).
Scooby South 02-21-2005 11:51 AM

hmmmmmmm...Addco strikes again....sounds interesting tho...Joel...can you PM me your # please...need to yell at cha on a few things..;)

Bill
Smittys_STi 02-21-2005 06:30 PM

so a 31.75mm hollow? ..... you've definitely got my attention now ... keep me posted
Got Pink? 02-21-2005 07:34 PM

Will it be adjustable? If so I am definently interested

Bigger and lighter than the whiteline and much bigger than the cobb/hotchkis hollow bar so what size rear bar is a good match for an STU/ESP car?
PerformanceAutoSolutions 02-22-2005 11:32 AM

yes i have that 27mm front bar on my 04 sti--very happy--left the stock rear one in
with the dccd all the way back the car is very neutral
dave
AUTOwrXER 02-22-2005 03:51 PM

It won't be adjustable. It will be heavy-duty bolt-type endlinks for the one position. I still haven't seen a good adjustable front bar, due to the design of the attachment point...
PerformanceAutoSolutions 02-23-2005 08:32 AM

the front bar i have is a whiteline adjustable--25mm--27mm the install is tight
have to loosen for u shaped body support.
dave
AUTOwrXER 02-24-2005 02:23 PM

But does it actually change the lever arm of the bar? Is the adjustment just straight up and down? It would only make a difference if you could change the distance from the chassis mounting point to the endlink location (hence change the lever arm of the bar).
AUTOwrXER 02-25-2005 03:29 PM

FYI, I received the second prototype bar, and I'll be test fitting it over the weekend. More info to come...
TopSpeed 02-25-2005 04:29 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]But does it actually change the lever arm of the bar? Is the adjustment just straight up and down? It would only make a difference if you could change the distance from the chassis mounting point to the endlink location (hence change the lever arm of the bar).[/QUOTE]
The Whiteline XRD 25-27 changes the lever arm of the bar. If it didn't, there would be no point in having an adjustment. ;)

-Porter
AUTOwrXER 02-26-2005 08:41 AM

Can you post a pic of how it does this? Maybe it's something that could be incorporated into our prototype...
AUTOwrXER 02-26-2005 11:36 PM

I took some pics of the first two prototypes today. Who can host them for me?

FYI, the prototypes weigh about 1 lb more than the stock 20mm 2005 STi FSB...
DILLIGAF Racing 02-27-2005 11:32 AM

on a kind of related topic, whats a good alignment for the 05 STi? Street/AutoX/Track.....in that order.
AUTOwrXER 02-28-2005 12:44 PM

Pics here:

[url]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/all-3.jpg[/url]

[url]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/all-3-v2.jpg[/url]

[url]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/closeup.jpg[/url]

Top bar is the first prototype, middle bar is the second prototype, and the bottom bar is stock 2005 STi.

Joel
D_REX 02-28-2005 01:58 PM

The blade angle looks to be off by a lot compared to the stock bar. Do these use the stock endlink or something specific to Addco?
Draken 02-28-2005 02:09 PM

There are several companies that canmanufactuer custom anti-roll bars. Addco made a special bar for my Yugo...back in the day, and we also used them for making bars for our old Saab Sonett race cars.

Look in the back of GRM..or just call Strano when this bar is available.

Chris H.
cboggess 03-01-2005 09:53 AM

What material are you using for this bar? 304 or 4130?

I too am curious about the endlinks.
AUTOwrXER 03-01-2005 12:18 PM

[QUOTE=D_REX]The blade angle looks to be off by a lot compared to the stock bar. Do these use the stock endlink or something specific to Addco?[/QUOTE]

It uses all new mounting hardware and endlinks. I'm sure it would pop stock endlinks like twigs given the additional force this bar will be transferring...
AUTOwrXER 03-01-2005 12:32 PM

[QUOTE=cboggess]What material are you using for this bar? 304 or 4130?
[/QUOTE]

Not sure, but I just sent an email to the engineer working on it.
AUTOwrXER 03-01-2005 12:36 PM

One thing that I know about Addco's manufacturing process is that they make all the bends "cold" as opposed to many others who heat up the bars to do the bending. The heating and cooling to make the bends weakens the bar, so this should be a very durable product. I have not heard of any issues with the 35mm hollow or solid Camaro bars that they make, and those have been tested again and again by autocrossers on every level.

FWIW, Addco also makes huge specialty sways for motorhomes, buses, etc. When I was up there I saw some products that must have been 3" in diameter. I'm guessing those would test the strength and durability of the manufacturing process better than anything...
AUTOwrXER 03-01-2005 02:47 PM

Official word from Addco: Material is 1045
Smittys_STi 03-08-2005 09:13 PM

So when will this bar be available again?

Please PM me any details you can't post here! ;)
ratt_finkel 03-09-2005 12:27 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]One thing that I know about Addco's manufacturing process is that they make all the bends "cold" as opposed to many others who heat up the bars to do the bending. The heating and cooling to make the bends weakens the bar, so this should be a very durable product. I have not heard of any issues with the 35mm hollow or solid Camaro bars that they make, and those have been tested again and again by autocrossers on every level.

FWIW, Addco also makes huge specialty sways for motorhomes, buses, etc. When I was up there I saw some products that must have been 3" in diameter. I'm guessing those would test the strength and durability of the manufacturing process better than anything...[/QUOTE]
iPd also make sway bar kits for larger than average vehicles. Which happens to be who made my front bar. Though, Addco will be getting a call from me shortly for a 1" bar.
rankink 03-09-2005 12:45 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]It uses all new mounting hardware and endlinks. I'm sure it would pop stock endlinks like twigs given the additional force this bar will be transferring...[/QUOTE]


If it does use/require new mounting hardware then this bar is no good for A-Stock. Oh well...
afpdl 03-09-2005 02:22 PM

[QUOTE=rankink]If it does use/require new mounting hardware then this bar is no good for A-Stock. Oh well...[/QUOTE]
Front sway bars are FREE in stock. You can put one on a car that didnt come with one if you want to. new mounting hardware is perfectly fine.
AUTOwrXER 03-09-2005 03:03 PM

[QUOTE=Smittys_STi]So when will this bar be available again?

Please PM me any details you can't post here! ;)[/QUOTE]

Still working on it. Next prototype in about 2 weeks. I can't say for sure when it will be done; I was just letting you guys in early on the development effort.
AUTOwrXER 03-09-2005 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=afpdl]Front sway bars are FREE in stock. You can put one on a car that didnt come with one if you want to. new mounting hardware is perfectly fine.[/QUOTE]

Exactly
AUTOwrXER 03-09-2005 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]iPd also make sway bar kits for larger than average vehicles. Which happens to be who made my front bar. Though, Addco will be getting a call from me shortly for a 1" bar.[/QUOTE]

Don't know why they'd want to make the same product that a few other companies already make, especiialy when it's not big enough ;)
Smittys_STi 03-30-2005 09:43 AM

BUMP .... just wanted an update on this. It's about time to be buying a bar. :devil:
Draken 03-30-2005 09:58 AM

I recently installed the Whiteline 26-28mm front bar. Fits tight against the subframe and control arm, but works great so far.

Chris H.
skuttledude 03-30-2005 09:59 AM

keep this alive. I'm very interested.
Thanks for the pics too!
Any price point you are thinking about?
AUTOwrXER 03-30-2005 11:33 AM

I'm supposed to have the next prototype in time to install this weekend. Hopefully Addco can get it to me in time. I'll post an update next week if I receive it.

Regarding the price point, that will be set between Addco and Stranoparts.com, who will be the sole distributor. I am involved in the design and testing, but not the resale of this product.
felonious 03-30-2005 12:34 PM

Just to clarify, this is copied directly from the 2005 rulebook, pages 66-67, Stock Category:

[quote=SCCA]

13.7 ANTI-ROLL (SWAY) BARS

A. For front anti-roll (sway) bars:
1. Substitution, addition or removal of any front anti-roll bars is permitted.
2. Substitution, addition or removal of anti-roll bars may serve no other purpose than that of an anti-roll bar.
3. The use of any bushing material is permitted.
4. No modification to the body, frame or other components to accommodate anti-roll bar addition or substitution is allowed, except for the drilling of holes for mounting bolts. Non-standard lateral members which connect between the brackets for the bar are not permitted.

B. Rear anti-roll (sway) bars:
1. May not be removed, replaced, or modified in any way.
[/quote]

-Ollie
trhoppe 03-30-2005 12:40 PM

[QUOTE=felonious]Just to clarify, this is copied directly from the 2005 rulebook, pages 66-67, Stock Category:



-Ollie[/QUOTE]
What was the rule question that you are trying to prove with that quote??

-Tom
Smittys_STi 03-31-2005 09:21 AM

[QUOTE=trhoppe]What was the rule question that you are trying to prove with that quote??

-Tom[/QUOTE]

That's my question as well ..... :huh:
ratt_finkel 03-31-2005 10:42 AM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Don't know why they'd want to make the same product that a few other companies already make, especiialy when it's not big enough ;)[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about?
AUTOwrXER 03-31-2005 11:17 AM

[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]iPd also make sway bar kits for larger than average vehicles. Which happens to be who made my front bar. Though, Addco will be getting a call from me shortly for a 1" bar.[/QUOTE]

The bar I am working on is 1.25" There are plenty of 1" hollow bars on the market already. I don't know why Addco would want to make the same product that others have had on the market for years now. It would be a waste of R&D money, and we've already seen that a 1" hollow bar is not big enough for competition use. That's what I'm talking about.
wrx2.0 555 03-31-2005 11:25 AM

[QUOTE=trhoppe]What was the rule question that you are trying to prove with that quote??

-Tom[/QUOTE]


It was stated earlier that the bar will require new mounting hardware--endlinks, etc.

The Stock rules dont appear to allow for mounting hardware changes, but only the bar itself and bushings.
felonious 03-31-2005 11:52 AM

Thank you!! Reading comprehension, yaaaay. :D

-Ollie
Student Driver 03-31-2005 12:27 PM

I always wondered that myself. Are the endlinks considered part of the bar itself? The AutoX FAQ thread seemed to indicate that it was A-OK to change out the links, but the rules for stock class seem to indicate otherwise.
Calamity Jesus 03-31-2005 12:36 PM

I don't see where you don't get that mounting hardware can be changed.. it even allows you to drill holes to mount different hardware. As long as you're only changing the swaybar components that act as the swaybar (swaybar, endlinks, bushings), you're legal. Try to change anything else about the chassis (like bracing up the mounting brackets in order to stiffen up the chassis) and you're in violation.

Endlinks are not refferred to at all in the rulebook because they are considered to be an integral part of some swaybar setups.
wrx2.0 555 03-31-2005 01:00 PM

Not trying to be argumentative, but this line still leads [I]me[/I] to believe that replacing/modifying links or mounts is NOT legal..

4. No modification to the body, frame or [B]other components[/B] to accommodate anti-roll bar addition or substitution is allowed

I certainly do not know my interpretation to be true, just posing an argument. It would also be nice to know for a fact if this was ever a protest item that was won or lost at a National event.
afpdl 03-31-2005 01:27 PM

How exactly do you expect to attach the swaybar to the new mounting holes you drilled without using endlinks? Im pretty sure cars that dont come with stock front sways dont have stock endlinks hanging around in the glove box.
Student Driver 03-31-2005 02:08 PM

Most cars that I worked with in the past did not use endlinks to connect the sway bar to the lower control arm, but rather connected to it directly. Therefore, for someone like me that is new to this style of connection, the endlink is an item that is separate from the swaybar.

What would be nice is to see a clear, and respectful answer to the question.
Student Driver 03-31-2005 02:19 PM

I guess the best way to look at it would be to see the endlinks as "attaching hardware", much like replacing the nut, bolt, washers, and bushings of older cars. In that case, it would be clearly permitted. If you are looking at the endlink as a separate suspension item, then the confusion would be more apparent.

I would say that the "modification" portion of the rule would apply to someone trying to open up the subframe to stuff a huge bar into the car, and not the connecting hardware.
ratt_finkel 03-31-2005 02:20 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]The bar I am working on is 1.25" There are plenty of 1" hollow bars on the market already. I don't know why Addco would want to make the same product that others have had on the market for years now. It would be a waste of R&D money, and we've already seen that a 1" hollow bar is not big enough for competition use. That's what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]
Maybe for the STi. But try finding that for an RS.
AUTOwrXER 03-31-2005 03:47 PM

[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Maybe for the STi. But try finding that for an RS.[/QUOTE]

Didn't see that you had an RS. Still, is there a market (aside from yourself) for that product? If not, why would anyone want to develop it?

I got the latest prototype from UPS today. I'll be fitting it over the weekend and will report back with an update. I'll try to take some pics. This one is unpainted, so it's not exactly sexy, but hopefully it will work.
ratt_finkel 03-31-2005 04:52 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Didn't see that you had an RS. Still, is there a market (aside from yourself) for that product? If not, why would anyone want to develop it?
[/QUOTE]
I'll let you know in September. ;)
Corn-Picker 04-01-2005 10:13 AM

Can you guys help a newbie out, and explain why a bigger front swaybar will help the STi in auto-x events? I thought the problem with the STi during cornering was that the rear isn't getting enough traction, and it seems to me that a bigger front bar would hurt more than help, but obviosuly that's not the case. What are the vehicle dynamics that make a larger front bar help?

Also, can anyone pin down a quantitative benifit to the bar? I have a full auto-x season under my belt from last year, and I am going to be more competitive this year. I think my first investment will be new tires, as those are going to be worth more than a new swaybar time-wise. Let's say DOT R compounds are good for 2 seconds per 60, what's a swaybar worth? Are we talking half a second, a tenth of a second, or hundreths of a second; as I'm not yet competitive enough to justify expenditure over a tenth of a second :) How will I have to change my drivign style to compliment the new swaybar?

Thanks, you guys are great.
DrBiggly 04-01-2005 11:19 AM

Corn-Picker,
The Impreza chassis is nose-heavy being quite similar to a FWD chassis in weight distribution. It also has a McPherson strut suspension, which has quite a lot of camber change as a corner loads from body roll or weight transfer.

This loading of the corner changes camber to positive, so one is essentially riding only on the very edge of the tire instead of using a more optimal contact patch. Adding a front swaybar loads a corner more (say a -1 in the grip department like suspension tuning books talk about) but helps the camber curve so greatly that the overall effect (camber change minimization worth say a +3 or +4 for grip) is a net of +2 or +3.

Another benefit to the larger front swaybar is the turn-in response; the car responds much more quickly than without a larger bar.

The "problem" of the STi during cornering isn't that the rear is not getting enough traction but rather the ratio of front to rear traction during cornering. More front and less rear traction means more looseness, or a greater likelihood to "rotate." By adding a larger front bar, you're changing that ratio of front grip vs. rear grip and thus the car will "rotate" better or push less; whichever way you'd like to look at it.

Hope this helps. :)

-Biggly

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