Chủ Nhật, 6 tháng 11, 2016

AS front bar ? part 2

AUTOwrXER 04-06-2005 03:22 PM
Well the 32mm bar is on! It's really a beautiful thing, as it completely fills the gap between the front crossmember and the lower cross brace. You could maybe fit a credit card between the bar and the crossmember or the bar and the brace, but not much else. It truely is the largest diameter bar that would fit without modifying those pieces. If more sway is needed beyond this, it will have to be with a larger bar wall thickness or a solid bar, as you could not go any larger in outer diameter.

The bar will get plenty of testing this weekend with 4 drivers in the car for the National Tour. This is a TON more sway than I was using on the car previously, so I'm sure it will have a noticable effect. I'll report back later with a review and pictures. For now I'm working like mad to get ready, and then I'll be wearing the event chair hat and hosting 200 for the weekend. If anyone is down in Atlanta for the race this weekend and want to check it out, just drop by.

Joel
DrBiggly 04-06-2005 03:32 PM
I'll have to check it out when I'm there. As long as I'm not busy when you're in impound, that probably would be a decent time I'd think. Everyone else will be checking out the car anyway. :)
afpdl 04-06-2005 03:37 PM
So what rates are you running along with the giant front bar?
AUTOwrXER 04-06-2005 05:40 PM
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]I'll have to check it out when I'm there. As long as I'm not busy when you're in impound, that probably would be a decent time I'd think. Everyone else will be checking out the car anyway. :)[/QUOTE]

Stop by any time. I will be there literally all day every day. I have to open the gates in the morning and close them in the evening, so it will be hard to miss me. Nice dyno runs, btw!
AUTOwrXER 04-06-2005 05:41 PM
[QUOTE=afpdl]So what rates are you running along with the giant front bar?[/QUOTE]

550# front, 1000# rear (no rear bar)
D_REX 04-06-2005 06:06 PM
Why are you willing to run such high rates on the rear but not on the front?
afpdl 04-06-2005 10:29 PM
Ditto what is the benefits of having a huge front bar over upping the front spring rates?
AUTOwrXER 04-07-2005 04:19 PM
There are many reasons. In the interest of being brief and not going off topic, the front spring rates allow the car to be manageable over rough surfaces. The car still requires more roll stiffness, which is where the big front bar comes in. The primary benefit of the bar for my application is the load distribution across the rear wheels, which should help control inside rear wheel lift and wheelspin.
silver04rs 04-08-2005 06:01 AM
what size REAR bar will u run with this big of a front?
D_REX 04-08-2005 08:19 AM
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]550# front, 1000# rear (no rear bar)[/QUOTE]
See above ;)
Got Pink? 04-08-2005 09:34 AM
That makes sense to use reasonable spring rates to have compliance over bumps and a really stiff bar to give the roll stiffness desired on the front but why run 1000# rear springs and no rear bar over say 650# rear springs and a large rear bar? Don't you need compliance over bumps in the rear? I have got my inside rear way off the ground over a hump in our local autox lot and can't imagine how bad that transition would be with 1000# rear springs but if you have smooth flat lots to run on that might be the way to go. The lot we usually use is on a hill and in really good shape but has a few transitions before sections that are not so friendly.
dwx 04-08-2005 10:19 AM
If you put a rear bar on the car, it will lift the inside rear wheel on cornering. He's trying to eliminate that by using springs to control rear roll instead of the swaybar. That's also the reason for using the large front bar, because it will help transfer weight and keep the rear on the ground. Did you try other springs before the 1000lb springs? I'd want to go as soft as possible and still get the desired effect. The rear end of the sti isn't that heavy and I could see it skittering over bumps and whatnot with them that stiff.
gotsol 04-08-2005 10:25 AM
I've got a picture of Joel's STi doing a rear leg-lift like a Great Dane, or at least a VW :p
Smittys_STi 04-12-2005 10:30 AM
So? How's it looking? .... ;)
AUTOwrXER 04-12-2005 10:55 AM
Well I like the front bar a lot. The roll is substantially better in the front than previously, with the same or more overall grip. The rear wheel lift is much less than before (not gone, but better).

I'm doing the Evolution dial-in school with Andy Hollis this Thursday. I'll have the chance to test front end grip with and without the front bar to determine if it is actually increasing grip in the front (through better control of the camber curve) as well as the back (due to better load distribution).
trhoppe 04-12-2005 01:10 PM
Pics of teh bar from Joel

[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/Bar1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/Bar2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/Bar3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/Bar4.jpg[/img]

-Tom
cboggess 04-12-2005 01:23 PM
Just a small point, but I would take the bolt for the endlink and run it though the top. That way if you lose the nut you won't lose the bolt, and have the thing catastrophically fall apart.
AUTOwrXER 04-12-2005 02:31 PM
Thanks for hosting the pics Tom. Based on the rumors lately, the bar also adds approximately 100 hp and costs $20k ;)
trhoppe 04-12-2005 02:36 PM
:lol: :lol:
DrBiggly 04-12-2005 03:12 PM
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Thanks for hosting the pics Tom. Based on the rumors lately, the bar also adds approximately 100 hp and costs $20k ;)[/QUOTE]
I saw that.... $30k in development. :lol:
ratt_finkel 04-12-2005 03:18 PM
I'll give ya 60k for the car ;)

And that is one large bar. What exactly are the endlinks made out of? That looks like a lot of rubber.
AUTOwrXER 04-12-2005 03:44 PM
The endlink is a solid bolt with 4 rubber bushings. The bolt goes through those bushings and the washers at the ends to hold everything together.
cboggess 04-12-2005 03:53 PM
It's actually a fairly common way to do endlinks (ala integra).

how stiff did you go with on those bushings? I would think anything less than a shore 90A would just be too squishy.
ratt_finkel 04-12-2005 03:59 PM
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]The endlink is a solid bolt with 4 rubber bushings. The bolt goes through those bushings and the washers at the ends to hold everything together.[/QUOTE]

Why rubber? And not solid metal?
cboggess 04-12-2005 04:43 PM
My understanding is you need some flex for dynamic movement. Additionally you don't want them to be noisy as they loosen over time.
AUTOwrXER 04-12-2005 05:11 PM
Actually I shouldn't have said rubber. I'm not sure what they are made of. Probably more likely to be urethane...
Corn-Picker 04-13-2005 09:17 AM
How much does a bar like this decrease the "independentness" of the front suspension? If I installed one of these would the car be more jumpy over bumps in day to day driving?
DrBiggly 04-13-2005 10:36 AM
[QUOTE=Corn-Picker]How much does a bar like this decrease the "independentness" of the front suspension? If I installed one of these would the car be more jumpy over bumps in day to day driving?[/QUOTE]
You'd notice a little more NVH, but no earth shattering loss of suspension independance. The positive effects of the bar would far outweight any negative side effects. :)
AUTOwrXER 04-13-2005 10:39 AM
That's a good question, because independent movement of the suspension is compromised by a sway bar. I am not aware of any method of quantifying that effect based on bar diameter. I would not expect the effect to be "jumpy", but you might expect the grip of one front tire to be affected by the movement of the other front tire. At situations below limit cornering force (i.e. street driving), I would not expect that to be noticable.
Corn-Picker 04-15-2005 04:25 PM
So when can I buy one of these and how much will it cost? After re-mounting my summer tires I've noticed that the outsides of the tires that were on the front are tore up a little , even though I was running 44+ psi on the RE070s during the last autocross. I'm assuming this wear is from the tire turning over during cornering, and since the RE070s have extremely stiff sidewalls and I was at 44psi I'm thinking the problem may be camber loss.
AUTOwrXER 04-18-2005 06:02 PM
At this point you can probably give Sam Strano at Stranoparts.com a call. I think he gets back from Atlanta tonight and will be in tomorrow.
Draken 04-18-2005 08:59 PM
BTW...ran my first event with the 26-28mm bar on my ESP/SM STi. Greatly reduced body roll over the 22mm Cusco front bar i had. Wonderfully flat, and helped to diminish much of the throttle oversteer i was dealing with. I had my 20-24 rear bar on soft, and was able to run zero rear toe (which i like) and it was perfectly balanced for a fast flowing course. It felt absolutly great.

[img]http://s91336901.onlinehome.us/2005-04-17%20Solo2/slides/IMG_8648.html[/img]
[img]http://s91336901.onlinehome.us/2005-04-17%20Solo2/slides/IMG_8714.html[/img]

Chris H.
AUTOwrXER 04-22-2005 03:56 PM
Well I just got off the phone with Sam Strano at Stranoparts.com, and they should have the first production run of the Addco bar available by approximately the second week of May. The price point will be $199 for the bar and all mounting hardware (heavy-duty brackets, bushings, and endlinks). You can reach Sam to place an order at 814-849-3417. Enjoy!
afpdl 04-22-2005 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I'm doing the Evolution dial-in school with Andy Hollis this Thursday. I'll have the chance to test front end grip with and without the front bar to determine if it is actually increasing grip in the front (through better control of the camber curve) as well as the back (due to better load distribution).[/QUOTE]
How did this go?
AUTOwrXER 04-24-2005 01:31 AM
Awesome. I took FTD at the ProSolo the following weekend. The front bar is on for good.
Scoobie Doogie 04-24-2005 10:08 PM
Any chance that baby will fit a wagon?

Dave
AUTOwrXER 04-25-2005 03:40 PM
I really have no idea as I not been under a wagon to check out fitment...
skuttledude 04-25-2005 04:25 PM
I'm looking for an agressive sway bar setup for AutoX that will also be ok on the street.

Should/Can I get the big 32mm front bar and 25mm-ish rear? I image the stock rear bar and huge front wouldn't be good for street?
ratt_finkel 04-25-2005 04:43 PM
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers]I'm looking for an agressive sway bar setup for AutoX that will also be ok on the street.

Should/Can I get the big 32mm front bar and 25mm-ish rear? I image the stock rear bar and huge front wouldn't be good for street?[/QUOTE]
It would be fine for the street. Just don't drive like a donkey.
AUTOwrXER 04-25-2005 04:58 PM
I'd go with an adjustable rear bar, as I don't think you'll need 25mm in the rear unless the rear springs are very soft. You may want to just try the stock rear bar first and then add a larger bar if needed.
skuttledude 04-25-2005 06:36 PM
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I'd go with an adjustable rear bar, as I don't think you'll need 25mm in the rear unless the rear springs are very soft. You may want to just try the stock rear bar first and then add a larger bar if needed.[/QUOTE]

I forgot to mentioned I have 30 pt. adjustable (dampening) coilovers.
HKS Hypermax RS's

Front springs = 6kgf and rear = 4kgf+helper

I suppose I'm a little heistant on getting a huge front bar and stock rear. Kinda wonder what that'll do?
AUTOwrXER 04-26-2005 05:17 PM
The dampers aren't doing anything in steady-state cornering. That's where the springs and the swaybars come in. With that low of a rear spring rate (I believe that is significantly lower than stock), you probably will need a large rear bar...
skuttledude 05-02-2005 11:27 AM
Sorry to bump this once again..but..

My suspension specs:
spring raftes= 336#front and 224# rear.
(stock is 224fr and 194 rear i believe on STi)
HKS Hypermax RS's

Looking for an aggreesive AutoX setup that will still be usuable/fun on street. Want better turn in and less body roll going thru AutoX and HPDE courses.
Which option would you recommend?

Question:
Option#1: Get new large 32mm front bar and keep rear sway stock
Option#2: Get new large 32mm and get a 25mm-ish rear adjustable bar
Option #3: Get a smaller (yet larger than stock) front and rear sway bar (whiteline etc..)

Also interested to hear more reviews and comments on this cool big bar.

Thanks!

Davis
DrBiggly 05-02-2005 11:51 AM
I vote Option #2. :)
Draken 05-02-2005 12:58 PM
Grab something like the Cusco or Whiteline 20-24mm rear bar.

I currently run the 26-28 front bar, 20-24 rear bar, with 10k/8k springs. I am usualy on the softest rear bar setting.

Chris H.
Orion 05-02-2005 06:33 PM
To clarify the whole endlink debate, we contacted Doug Gill after I snapped a stocker in half in Toledo yesterday:

[quote]
It would be the same if a car didn't come equipped from the manufacturer with a standard anti-roll bar. 13.7.A.1 allows for the addition of any front anti-roll bar. This also allows any components and methods of attachment needed for the anti-roll bar to function properly, except 13.7.A.4 restricts attachment to "the drilling of holes for mounting bolts" to the car. You can use any brackets, end links, etc as long as it serves no other purpose (13.7.A.2).

The same allowances apply to the standard anti-roll bar, too - brackets, end links, etc, as long as it is for the anti-roll bar only.

In the September 2004 FasTrack [url="http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/04-09-fastrack.pdf"][u][color=#0000ff]http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/04-09-fastrack.pdf[/color][/u][/url], Tech Bulletin 1 is about the upper and lower anti-roll bar brackets on a Miata are allowed to be replaced with others. The was the result of a protest last year.

Hope this helps.


- Doug
[/quote]
trhoppe 05-02-2005 06:41 PM
Wow, you broke a stock endling? Good job! I've personally used up to a 26mm bar and seen up to 28mm bars used on the stockers with no breaking.

:)

-Tom
D_REX 05-02-2005 06:46 PM
I think the RS uses plastic endlinks in the front like the WRX wagon.
trhoppe 05-02-2005 06:50 PM
bleh who reads the "owners car" part under their name anyways ;) :lol:

-Tom
nevermind
Orion 05-02-2005 08:05 PM
22mm ipd front bar on an 05 RS w/ Victos. Conditions stunk, ~45-50 deg temps and the slick Toledo concrete with occ. showers and hail and we still got enough grip to break it.

Oh yeah, went to the dealer to see if there's a part # difference and the answer is NO! Same endlink for ALL non STi sedans 02-present.

My Noltecs from the WRX will be on the car in the morning.:)
Orion 05-02-2005 08:08 PM
[QUOTE=D_REX]I think the RS uses plastic endlinks in the front like the WRX wagon.[/QUOTE]

take yours off and you'll see they are plastic at the joint. mine simply popped apart.
trhoppe 05-02-2005 08:11 PM
Not mine (02 WRX). We actually just took one apart two days ago since the end nut sized on the threads. All metal pillowball inside.

-Tom
D_REX 05-02-2005 09:02 PM
I'll look closely next time I take apart the front end. Very often a spherical bearing will ride on a nylon liner. These bearing usualy have a reduced axial load capacity. If the aftermarket sway bar you are using is bent differently from the stock bar it could load the bearing in a way it was not designed to be loaded. This could cause the "ball" to pop out of the "cup".

Disclaimer:
All of the above rambling is pure conjecture and not in any way intended to explain Orion's failure of which I have no specific knowledge other than what is posted in this thread.
Orion 05-02-2005 09:27 PM
my lil bro snapped a pic, i'll post it once i get a copy. it's a metal pillowball in a plastic or nylon cup as Dustin described. the WRX ones had black cups, the RS' are blue.
he was driving at the time, and we have it on video. kinda cool to see it happen in the middle of the run and see the dramatic change in the car. it was so cold and windy and all the rain we never bothered to inspect it. i found it changing tires after the event. of course the car had no understeer to speak of except when he over drove the corners in the wet! :lol:
trhoppe 05-02-2005 11:04 PM
Well shiiiiit. I never inspected the "cup". I said "hmm metal pillowball, metal bar".

Learn something new everyday.

Also, I guess maybe the whiteline bars put the "same" load on the bearings as I've never had a failure :)

-Tom
AUTOwrXER 05-10-2005 11:08 AM
I imagine that the first production run of this bar is nearly complete. If interested, call or email Sam Strano. [url]www.stranoparts.com[/url]
skuttledude 05-10-2005 01:15 PM
To those that have this bar...
How is streetable is the big front bar? Firm yet tolerable? Really just for track? Easily usable (not too harsh a ride) for street? Reviews by others. I'm very interested but I just need to know if this will be bearable for the street.
I called 2 weeks ago and production was slated for last week or so, as it was mentioned above.
Many Thanks!
Smittys_STi 05-10-2005 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I imagine that the first production run of this bar is nearly complete. If interested, call or email Sam Strano. [url]www.stranoparts.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Heard from them yesterday that the first run would be done at the end of next week .... I'm just hoping that it makes it way to me before Mem. Day weekend so I can do the install!

Davis, I'll let you know once I get it and have it on ... should be about 3 or 4 weeks from now.
Virgil 05-10-2005 08:44 PM
Tom and Joel....I know you two to be very good suspension tuners. Do yall really think this would be a good AS solution. I just put on a 24mm whiteline and ran one event. I sruggled at first with push(especially in the sweepers) although inital turn in was nice and crisp. Once I played with pressures and freed up the rear it was great but still pushed in the sweepers. Is this huge bar not just too big in stock trim, asking not arguing. And are you answering this assuming nice fancy adjustable struts are being used?
DrBiggly 05-10-2005 09:01 PM
It's a Subaru; ultimately it's still going to push without changing the rear in a seemingly radical fashion to make it come around. The front bar just helps you gain some additional front grip, which the car desperately needs. You won't get rid of all the push in a stock class. Slow in, fast out and drive around it. :)

-Biggly
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