| Redneck Ricer | 11-15-2004 03:07 PM |
ok, this is made easy. He is looking for a cage LEGAL for COM. COM goes by SCCA rules. SCCA rules state you cannot have bends in the rear support bars. You cage would not be legal for him. The Autopower Bolt in cage is 100% legal for SCCA, and therefore COM, and therefore a suitable alternative for him.
Barry
PS: My car is never going to be under 8.50, so I guess I dont have to worry. not many 8 second subies out there :)
Barry
PS: My car is never going to be under 8.50, so I guess I dont have to worry. not many 8 second subies out there :)
| Chaste Automotive | 11-15-2004 06:05 PM |
Actually this is completely legal because it is FIA cert which is above and beyond SCCA or NASA or USAC. SO yes this cage is legal.
| Redneck Ricer | 11-15-2004 06:44 PM |
yours, yes, i was talking about the previous one where it has bendsin the rear support bars.
but yes, yours is a nice cage :)
but yes, yours is a nice cage :)
| eclip5e | 11-15-2004 08:42 PM |
This is what i'm thinking now that i've read this thread.
[img]http://www.ioportracing.com/images/product/rb-race.jpg[/img]
Since ST1 doesn't require a rollbar or cage, this is more than enough to quality according to the rules. Its bolt in, and unintrusive.
Its got a harness bar and crossbeam, so thats good.
Typically made of 1.750" � .120" mild steel - 2.00" � .120" DOM tubing - which i'd get.
Seems like a good deal for track days. Obviously once I get serious, i'll do a full welded cage, and make sure its straight pipes TIG welded in, but that will be in like 2 years or so.
[img]http://www.ioportracing.com/images/product/rb-race.jpg[/img]
Since ST1 doesn't require a rollbar or cage, this is more than enough to quality according to the rules. Its bolt in, and unintrusive.
Its got a harness bar and crossbeam, so thats good.
Typically made of 1.750" � .120" mild steel - 2.00" � .120" DOM tubing - which i'd get.
Seems like a good deal for track days. Obviously once I get serious, i'll do a full welded cage, and make sure its straight pipes TIG welded in, but that will be in like 2 years or so.
| santofontana | 11-15-2004 08:44 PM |
How much?
| turboICE | 11-15-2004 08:57 PM |
That is the autopower race bar with cross and harness bars. ~$400.
Besides the bends in the rear support of that one set of earlier pictures which are not legal for any road or rally rules I am aware, the main hoop is also not legal since it contains more than 4 bends. Curving the main hoop to meet the roof line is not legal. Not sayint it isn't legal for whatever it is being used for but definitely not for SCCA or NASA rules.
Also if you are willing to give up your sunroof - there has been speculation that the autopower race bar will fit a GC8 but you would have to remove the roof lining and sunroof mechanisms. This has *not* been confirmed but speculated on by placement of the main hoop in a GC8 with the mechanism and liner still in.
Besides the bends in the rear support of that one set of earlier pictures which are not legal for any road or rally rules I am aware, the main hoop is also not legal since it contains more than 4 bends. Curving the main hoop to meet the roof line is not legal. Not sayint it isn't legal for whatever it is being used for but definitely not for SCCA or NASA rules.
Also if you are willing to give up your sunroof - there has been speculation that the autopower race bar will fit a GC8 but you would have to remove the roof lining and sunroof mechanisms. This has *not* been confirmed but speculated on by placement of the main hoop in a GC8 with the mechanism and liner still in.
| Redneck Ricer | 11-15-2004 09:48 PM |
Here are some pics of the auto power cage installed on an STI. Notice how the non bent rear support bars block the opening of the back seats. Also, how the harness bars on the main hoop go back into the rear passenger area.
The Race bar with cross harness is 'BASICALLY' the same th ing without the front and door bars.
U can also see the difference a seat makes. on the Passenger side, the recaro's were pressed up against the bar, while the sparcos had a good 4" room. Seats pplay a huge factor in belt placement, fit, etc. I ende dup getting rid of the recaros due to poor belt placement and lack of room. (no, i did not use the belts the way they are in the pics with the recaros).
BArry
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/side2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/side3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/side1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/cagebackseat.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/cagebackseat2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/insideroof.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/driverscage2.jpg[/IMG]
The Race bar with cross harness is 'BASICALLY' the same th ing without the front and door bars.
U can also see the difference a seat makes. on the Passenger side, the recaro's were pressed up against the bar, while the sparcos had a good 4" room. Seats pplay a huge factor in belt placement, fit, etc. I ende dup getting rid of the recaros due to poor belt placement and lack of room. (no, i did not use the belts the way they are in the pics with the recaros).
BArry
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/side2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/side3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/side1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/cagebackseat.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/cagebackseat2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/insideroof.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/pezzo33/driverscage2.jpg[/IMG]
| turboICE | 11-15-2004 10:58 PM |
On the recaro pictures... You know that the outside lap belt can be bolted to the bottom connecting point of the stock seatbelt (behind the carpt). The inside lap belt be bolted to the rear seat mounting point. It looks like someone rigged some extenstions to the lap belts - those belts stretch more than you might think. Sub belt can be connected through the bar under the front of the seat using a grade 8 lag bolt through both the front and rear surface.
On the shoulder harnesses the ends should be tuck back through the clips one more time. It is very difficult but you can be sure that the belt won't slip back out in a wreck.
[url]http://www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/36.pdf[/url]
I am sorry but that is a poor example of how to install belts - someone can get hurt following that. The sparco pix might have those corrected but the recaro pix are dangerous.
On the shoulder harnesses the ends should be tuck back through the clips one more time. It is very difficult but you can be sure that the belt won't slip back out in a wreck.
[url]http://www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/36.pdf[/url]
I am sorry but that is a poor example of how to install belts - someone can get hurt following that. The sparco pix might have those corrected but the recaro pix are dangerous.
| Chaste Automotive | 11-16-2004 03:34 AM |
just a note on the cage wit hthe red cage padding you should ditch that pipe insulator stuff and get some FIA desnse stuff it is better at absorbing multiple impacts.
| Redneck Ricer | 11-16-2004 07:07 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]On the recaro pictures... You know that the outside lap belt can be bolted to the bottom connecting point of the stock seatbelt (behind the carpt). The inside lap belt be bolted to the rear seat mounting point. It looks like someone rigged some extenstions to the lap belts - those belts stretch more than you might think. Sub belt can be connected through the bar under the front of the seat using a grade 8 lag bolt through both the front and rear surface.
On the shoulder harnesses the ends should be tuck back through the clips one more time. It is very difficult but you can be sure that the belt won't slip back out in a wreck.
[url]http://www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/36.pdf[/url]
I am sorry but that is a poor example of how to install belts - someone can get hurt following that. The sparco pix might have those corrected but the recaro pix are dangerous.[/QUOTE]
yeah, thanks for pointing it out. as I stated, I did not use the belts like this.
I did not use them like this. I know they were not mounted properly.
The waist belts and sub belts were connected through the floor board with i bolts, re-inforced on both sides. mounted properly instead of just using the available seat bolt. I dont agree with that method, as the bolts are only so long and it seems as if the threads could strip easier, but I know it is a common way of doing it.
The shoulder belts were also mounted properly at a better angler and more secure once the seats were changes.
Yeah, I put the note in above to avoid everyone showing me I was wrong, since I knew it was wrong and did not use them that way, but thanks for pointing it out anyways.
Barry
On the shoulder harnesses the ends should be tuck back through the clips one more time. It is very difficult but you can be sure that the belt won't slip back out in a wreck.
[url]http://www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/36.pdf[/url]
I am sorry but that is a poor example of how to install belts - someone can get hurt following that. The sparco pix might have those corrected but the recaro pix are dangerous.[/QUOTE]
yeah, thanks for pointing it out. as I stated, I did not use the belts like this.
I did not use them like this. I know they were not mounted properly.
The waist belts and sub belts were connected through the floor board with i bolts, re-inforced on both sides. mounted properly instead of just using the available seat bolt. I dont agree with that method, as the bolts are only so long and it seems as if the threads could strip easier, but I know it is a common way of doing it.
The shoulder belts were also mounted properly at a better angler and more secure once the seats were changes.
Yeah, I put the note in above to avoid everyone showing me I was wrong, since I knew it was wrong and did not use them that way, but thanks for pointing it out anyways.
Barry
| Redneck Ricer | 11-16-2004 07:10 AM |
[QUOTE=Chaste Automotive]just a note on the cage wit hthe red cage padding you should ditch that pipe insulator stuff and get some FIA desnse stuff it is better at absorbing multiple impacts.[/QUOTE]
not pipe insulations. maybe nto the ideal stuff, but it was bought as padding specifically made for the cage.
here is the product description from Ioport racing.
[FONT=Fixedsys][COLOR=DarkRed]Roll Bar Padding with 3-inch Offset Hole
Our high-density padding is flame resistant and features an offset hole so you can put the thicker part facing the driver or driver's head. This also allows the cage to be fitted closer to the bodywork. Our padding is available in 3-foot lengths in three colors: Black, Blue, or Red. Secure the padding to the cage with our[/COLOR][/FONT]
not pipe insulations. maybe nto the ideal stuff, but it was bought as padding specifically made for the cage.
here is the product description from Ioport racing.
[FONT=Fixedsys][COLOR=DarkRed]Roll Bar Padding with 3-inch Offset Hole
Our high-density padding is flame resistant and features an offset hole so you can put the thicker part facing the driver or driver's head. This also allows the cage to be fitted closer to the bodywork. Our padding is available in 3-foot lengths in three colors: Black, Blue, or Red. Secure the padding to the cage with our[/COLOR][/FONT]
| turboICE | 11-16-2004 09:01 AM |
[QUOTE=Redneck Ricer]yeah, thanks for pointing it out. as I stated, I did not use the belts like this.
I did not use them like this. I know they were not mounted properly.
The waist belts and sub belts were connected through the floor board with i bolts, re-inforced on both sides. mounted properly instead of just using the available seat bolt. I dont agree with that method, as the bolts are only so long and it seems as if the threads could strip easier, but I know it is a common way of doing it.
The shoulder belts were also mounted properly at a better angler and more secure once the seats were changes.
Yeah, I put the note in above to avoid everyone showing me I was wrong, since I knew it was wrong and did not use them that way, but thanks for pointing it out anyways.
Barry[/QUOTE]
Kewl I missed the disclaimer. While your currently described method is good and nothing wrong with it at all - most installations recommend vertical surfaces to even reinforced horizontal surfaces as preferable hence the reason the existing mounting points are frequenly used. With the grade bolts used 6 threads are sufficient to prevent stripping at their rating. Proper mounting hardware are longer than the stock bolts and provide more than 6 threads of contact. Once you are through the nut you can't get anymore thread contact than that anyway. Also on the vertical surfaces the stresses are more shear related than tension related. Shear stresses rarely result in stripping.
I did not use them like this. I know they were not mounted properly.
The waist belts and sub belts were connected through the floor board with i bolts, re-inforced on both sides. mounted properly instead of just using the available seat bolt. I dont agree with that method, as the bolts are only so long and it seems as if the threads could strip easier, but I know it is a common way of doing it.
The shoulder belts were also mounted properly at a better angler and more secure once the seats were changes.
Yeah, I put the note in above to avoid everyone showing me I was wrong, since I knew it was wrong and did not use them that way, but thanks for pointing it out anyways.
Barry[/QUOTE]
Kewl I missed the disclaimer. While your currently described method is good and nothing wrong with it at all - most installations recommend vertical surfaces to even reinforced horizontal surfaces as preferable hence the reason the existing mounting points are frequenly used. With the grade bolts used 6 threads are sufficient to prevent stripping at their rating. Proper mounting hardware are longer than the stock bolts and provide more than 6 threads of contact. Once you are through the nut you can't get anymore thread contact than that anyway. Also on the vertical surfaces the stresses are more shear related than tension related. Shear stresses rarely result in stripping.
| Zephyr | 11-16-2004 09:07 AM |
Keep going Ed, you're on a roll. You must have done a good job memorizing the CCR's in preperation for your comp license. So far I'm going to let you keep doing the talking for me.
Isn't it nice having a rookie permit :D
Z
Isn't it nice having a rookie permit :D
Z
| AZP Installs | 11-27-2004 04:02 AM |
[QUOTE=Chaste Automotive]Actually this is completely legal because it is FIA cert which is above and beyond SCCA or NASA or USAC. SO yes this cage is legal.[/QUOTE]
FIA is NOT LEGAL for SCCA nor NASA Road Racing as the bars are not thick enough and the wall thickness isn't thick enough.
-mike
FIA is NOT LEGAL for SCCA nor NASA Road Racing as the bars are not thick enough and the wall thickness isn't thick enough.
-mike
| lo-buck | 11-28-2004 04:19 PM |
yes, only FIA legal things scca, nasa or emra recognise are fia rated seats and that is because they have been tested in this country and passed the necessary tests for autoracing in this country
alot of the fia cages arent legal due to the metal used and the design of the cage. usually missing a harness bar is one of the things. multiple peice tubes or bends where there shouldnt be are other issues.
-spenc
alot of the fia cages arent legal due to the metal used and the design of the cage. usually missing a harness bar is one of the things. multiple peice tubes or bends where there shouldnt be are other issues.
-spenc
| turboICE | 11-28-2004 05:16 PM |
Well if we are going to get all technical :lol: FIA fire ratings for suits, shoes, etc also are permitted in US sanctioning. BTW an FIA legal cage *can* pass US sanctioning - it just has to be beyond FIA's min. specs. ;) It is the min. specs of FIA cage requirements that are not sufficient for US sanctioning - if the "FIA" cage is built up to US sanctioning it could be used - just most aren't.
| lo-buck | 11-28-2004 05:51 PM |
right. but if u took a base fia cage, it would not pass. end of story
| netadmin | 11-28-2004 06:17 PM |
Sorry for the threadjack, but I am interested in why you feel the cages need to be TIG welded and not MIG welded? I'm familiar with the welding process, and know that MIG is even acceptible for structural welding. Thanks for any info.
| AZP Installs | 11-29-2004 03:56 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Well if we are going to get all technical :lol: FIA fire ratings for suits, shoes, etc also are permitted in US sanctioning. BTW an FIA legal cage *can* pass US sanctioning - it just has to be beyond FIA's min. specs. ;) It is the min. specs of FIA cage requirements that are not sufficient for US sanctioning - if the "FIA" cage is built up to US sanctioning it could be used - just most aren't.[/QUOTE]
We are discussing cages in this thread...
While looking over the rules the only "FIA" items that will automatically pass for NASA (and probably SCCA too) are the seats. The Fire stuff is supposed to be SFI which CAN be FIA but not necessarily.
On the cage, you are right an FIA CAN be legal however all the cages i've seen for subarus that are available here and are FIA legal ARE NOT the correct size tubing or wall thickness for SCCA/NASA/EMRA legalities.
-mike
We are discussing cages in this thread...
While looking over the rules the only "FIA" items that will automatically pass for NASA (and probably SCCA too) are the seats. The Fire stuff is supposed to be SFI which CAN be FIA but not necessarily.
On the cage, you are right an FIA CAN be legal however all the cages i've seen for subarus that are available here and are FIA legal ARE NOT the correct size tubing or wall thickness for SCCA/NASA/EMRA legalities.
-mike
| bjorn240 | 11-29-2004 08:38 AM |
[QUOTE=AZP Installs]On the cage, you are right an FIA CAN be legal however all the cages i've seen for subarus that are available here and are FIA legal ARE NOT the correct size tubing or wall thickness for SCCA/NASA/EMRA legalities.
-mike[/QUOTE]
Mike,
I assume you are talking about SCCA roadracing classes or Solo classes (as the OP was referring to).
However, in the interest of completeness: Roll cages constructed to the FIA specification and certified by their manufacturer are allowed and recommended in (formerly SCCA now) Rally America rally classes. However, _any_ unauthorized modification to a certified FIA cage voids the certification.
Cheers,
- Christian
PS: Jeff, that's a good looking cage - are you going to be at Ramada? If so, let's have a drink on Thursday night.
-mike[/QUOTE]
Mike,
I assume you are talking about SCCA roadracing classes or Solo classes (as the OP was referring to).
However, in the interest of completeness: Roll cages constructed to the FIA specification and certified by their manufacturer are allowed and recommended in (formerly SCCA now) Rally America rally classes. However, _any_ unauthorized modification to a certified FIA cage voids the certification.
Cheers,
- Christian
PS: Jeff, that's a good looking cage - are you going to be at Ramada? If so, let's have a drink on Thursday night.
| lo-buck | 11-29-2004 10:23 AM |
so, FIA cages are legal for us rally? good to know.
-spenc
-spenc
| AZP Installs | 11-29-2004 10:40 AM |
Interesting about the rally rules. I was referring to the Road Racing rules as you guessed. I'm just suprised that Rally would have laxer rules than road racing since there is less safety barriers etc in rally.
-mike
-mike
| bjorn240 | 11-29-2004 11:00 AM |
[QUOTE=AZP Installs]Interesting about the rally rules. I was referring to the Road Racing rules as you guessed. I'm just suprised that Rally would have laxer rules than road racing since there is less safety barriers etc in rally.
-mike[/QUOTE]
I don't think the rally rules are more lax. The FIA-certified rally cages I have had the opportunity to sit within (and there are quite a few) have far surpassed the vast majority of SCCA-spec cages I've seen.
Obviously, a lot of the safety from a cage comes from quality install and welding (good penetration etc.), but from a design perspective, I'd generally say that the FIA-certified cages are superior to the SCCA minimum requirements.
Also, FWIW, as far as I am aware, the Road Racing rules and SCCA Rally rules had different requirements for non-FIA-certified cages as well.
- Christian
-mike[/QUOTE]
I don't think the rally rules are more lax. The FIA-certified rally cages I have had the opportunity to sit within (and there are quite a few) have far surpassed the vast majority of SCCA-spec cages I've seen.
Obviously, a lot of the safety from a cage comes from quality install and welding (good penetration etc.), but from a design perspective, I'd generally say that the FIA-certified cages are superior to the SCCA minimum requirements.
Also, FWIW, as far as I am aware, the Road Racing rules and SCCA Rally rules had different requirements for non-FIA-certified cages as well.
- Christian
| AZP Installs | 11-29-2004 11:17 AM |
Road Racing rules requirements are very similar to the FIA stuff, the biggest difference I found when researching was that the FIA pre-done cages used smaller diameter (slightly) tubing and smaller thickness walls (slightly) and when I inquired with SCCA and NASA about using them they said that they'd be checking them with a micrometer to verify the thickness of the walls and that they would not pass tech.
Not saying FIA ones aren't safe, just saying for road racing they won't let you use em and I've seen more than one person get to the track and be turned away because they didn't research before building their car.
-mike
Not saying FIA ones aren't safe, just saying for road racing they won't let you use em and I've seen more than one person get to the track and be turned away because they didn't research before building their car.
-mike
| bjorn240 | 11-29-2004 11:46 AM |
[QUOTE=AZP Installs]
Not saying FIA ones aren't safe, just saying for road racing they won't let you use em and I've seen more than one person get to the track and be turned away because they didn't research before building their car.
-mike[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I always wonder about people who post pics of a half-built car with some question like, "Can I reinforce the strut towers/remove the door trim" etc. I always feel like posting, umm, you bought a car, and started working on it, but you couldn't afford $15 for the rule book? Shockingly, all the "things you're allowed to do" (aka rules) are in there...
Anyways, FIA-cert cages are ok in SCCA ProRally/Rally America rallies.
Boy, we killed this thread. :)
- Christian
Not saying FIA ones aren't safe, just saying for road racing they won't let you use em and I've seen more than one person get to the track and be turned away because they didn't research before building their car.
-mike[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I always wonder about people who post pics of a half-built car with some question like, "Can I reinforce the strut towers/remove the door trim" etc. I always feel like posting, umm, you bought a car, and started working on it, but you couldn't afford $15 for the rule book? Shockingly, all the "things you're allowed to do" (aka rules) are in there...
Anyways, FIA-cert cages are ok in SCCA ProRally/Rally America rallies.
Boy, we killed this thread. :)
- Christian
| AZP Installs | 11-29-2004 11:56 AM |
Yup like a wet blanket. Haaaaa
Actually we did that with my L originally. We gutted it and crap before reading the rules etc. Although it is just a learning car so we weren't too worried about it. Now if I could only sell it....
-mike
Actually we did that with my L originally. We gutted it and crap before reading the rules etc. Although it is just a learning car so we weren't too worried about it. Now if I could only sell it....
-mike
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