| makofoto | 10-06-2005 05:56 PM |
Autocrossed the '06 STI
�
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Together with three other Team Blew team mates, we autocrossed a '06 STI (w/ 1,500 miles on it) last weekend in a Team Event. Four drivers, four different cars, only three could have the same drive train. Besides the STI, we had a STX WRX, and AS WRX (w/street tires) and a stock Miata with MX's.
The STI came in 2nd in the Most Valuable Car results ... behind the Paul Whitehead STS Civic, from recent Nationals fame. Weather was pretty warm.
The STI was so easy to drive fast!
From the catalog:
"Featuring an electronically controlled centre limited-slip differential, a yaw-rate sensor and a new-for-2006 cam-type mechanical centre limited-slip differential and steering wheel-angle sensor, DCCD gives you the freedom and confidence to handle any road."
The four of us are just middle level AX drivers ... but we were able to immediately put in some of the top times among the ten teams. Will Kalman got down to 56.9 with the Paul Whitehead Civic ... our four drivers top times were 57.0, 56.9, 56.7 and 58.2 (first of our drivers on a very dirty course). Three of our drivers had either never driven an STI or only had a couple of laps with one. One of our drivers was Greg Peng ... virtually a novice ... but one of the new bred of young drivers raised with video games and GTR! Greg was leading the overall Indexed Driver standings until he had his turn with the unfamiliar Miata at the end of Day 2. Greg ended up 5th overall ... Will Kalman was 2nd.
Our fastest time with the STX WRX (245/40/17 MX's) was 58.0. It was suffering from poor brakes however. The fastest time of another teams SM STI with 400 whp but 245/45/17 615's was 57.5. They had to keep turning down the boost because the car was so difficult to drive and get the power down on those street tires. Usually it's on 710's.
Unfortunately I'm not very articulate on evaluating handling! I can say that it didn't seem to lean as much as a lowered STI on Pinks. The diffs just made it very easy to get the power down. One could easily induce power on over steer ... but the car didn't (wouldn't?) easily get out of shape. I don't think any of us spun the car. I'll try to get the other drivers of this car to chime in with their observations. We'll have some action photos in a few days.
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v230/photos/4/43793/2710569/ThanksMAXmostValuable2me-vi.jpg[/img]
The STI came in 2nd in the Most Valuable Car results ... behind the Paul Whitehead STS Civic, from recent Nationals fame. Weather was pretty warm.
The STI was so easy to drive fast!
From the catalog:
"Featuring an electronically controlled centre limited-slip differential, a yaw-rate sensor and a new-for-2006 cam-type mechanical centre limited-slip differential and steering wheel-angle sensor, DCCD gives you the freedom and confidence to handle any road."
The four of us are just middle level AX drivers ... but we were able to immediately put in some of the top times among the ten teams. Will Kalman got down to 56.9 with the Paul Whitehead Civic ... our four drivers top times were 57.0, 56.9, 56.7 and 58.2 (first of our drivers on a very dirty course). Three of our drivers had either never driven an STI or only had a couple of laps with one. One of our drivers was Greg Peng ... virtually a novice ... but one of the new bred of young drivers raised with video games and GTR! Greg was leading the overall Indexed Driver standings until he had his turn with the unfamiliar Miata at the end of Day 2. Greg ended up 5th overall ... Will Kalman was 2nd.
Our fastest time with the STX WRX (245/40/17 MX's) was 58.0. It was suffering from poor brakes however. The fastest time of another teams SM STI with 400 whp but 245/45/17 615's was 57.5. They had to keep turning down the boost because the car was so difficult to drive and get the power down on those street tires. Usually it's on 710's.
Unfortunately I'm not very articulate on evaluating handling! I can say that it didn't seem to lean as much as a lowered STI on Pinks. The diffs just made it very easy to get the power down. One could easily induce power on over steer ... but the car didn't (wouldn't?) easily get out of shape. I don't think any of us spun the car. I'll try to get the other drivers of this car to chime in with their observations. We'll have some action photos in a few days.
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v230/photos/4/43793/2710569/ThanksMAXmostValuable2me-vi.jpg[/img]
| DrBiggly | 10-06-2005 06:14 PM |
Mako: Sweet! How would you compare it against an '05 STi, provided that you've had that experience as well. :)
-Biggly
-Biggly
| makofoto | 10-06-2005 06:40 PM |
The '04 and '05 STI's that I've driven spanned stock to that 400 whp SM version ... the SM one was very easy to drive and get good times with ... using 710's. I might drive it this weekend on new 255 615's and a new replacment HD clutch.
I'm spoiled with my stiff (but mild) SM WRX ... that I find easy to drive (sort of) fast. The underprepped STI's that I've driven have always seemed sloppy and took away from my confidence by leaning so much. I thought that they had to be overdriven to be fast. This '06 STI was truly confident inspiring. Greg will chime in ... but he said the AS STI that he drove for the first time a few weeks ago ... on 225/17 215's ... just seemed like a more powerful DS WRX ... his usual ride. The '06 STI just allowed one to jump all over it.
I've AX'ed a well prepped SS Z-06 ... and it was a bit scary (trying) to get the most out of it (being used to AWD). When I discovered the Competition Mode (not traction control) that is a Yaw Aid ... I was immediately able to go faster, confidently and have a lot more fun. That's what the new STI felt like ... in full DCCD Auto Mode.
I'm spoiled with my stiff (but mild) SM WRX ... that I find easy to drive (sort of) fast. The underprepped STI's that I've driven have always seemed sloppy and took away from my confidence by leaning so much. I thought that they had to be overdriven to be fast. This '06 STI was truly confident inspiring. Greg will chime in ... but he said the AS STI that he drove for the first time a few weeks ago ... on 225/17 215's ... just seemed like a more powerful DS WRX ... his usual ride. The '06 STI just allowed one to jump all over it.
I've AX'ed a well prepped SS Z-06 ... and it was a bit scary (trying) to get the most out of it (being used to AWD). When I discovered the Competition Mode (not traction control) that is a Yaw Aid ... I was immediately able to go faster, confidently and have a lot more fun. That's what the new STI felt like ... in full DCCD Auto Mode.
| BlkWRXWag | 10-06-2005 06:47 PM |
Oooo - look at that. Such pretty cars. It must be a very handsome man to own both those beauties.
I'm not sure how much I can add to Mako's post, but I was amazed how easy and quick the 06 STI was. I was also surprised by the lack of apparent body roll (at least from inside the car). When I see stock 04's and 05's, they always seem to roll a lot. Maybe it was just an illusion of being in the car, but we'll see once we get some photos.
I have no basis for comparison except for my STX wagon. The STI would understeer if you went in too hot, but would respond nicely when you backed off and would rear would step out on hard acceleration, but in a very controllable way. Grip levels felt similar to the wagon, but just way more power. The wagon was also much looser on those Kuhmo MX's than the STI was.
Mods...
The STI has a Cobb 25mm hollow FSB and a Cobb catback.
The Wagon has Koni Inserts with GC Coilovers, 400lb springs f/r, Cusco Camber plates (redrilled for extra castor), Whiteline adj. rear lateral links, Whiteline 22mm FSB, Cusco adj. RSB)
I'm not sure how much I can add to Mako's post, but I was amazed how easy and quick the 06 STI was. I was also surprised by the lack of apparent body roll (at least from inside the car). When I see stock 04's and 05's, they always seem to roll a lot. Maybe it was just an illusion of being in the car, but we'll see once we get some photos.
I have no basis for comparison except for my STX wagon. The STI would understeer if you went in too hot, but would respond nicely when you backed off and would rear would step out on hard acceleration, but in a very controllable way. Grip levels felt similar to the wagon, but just way more power. The wagon was also much looser on those Kuhmo MX's than the STI was.
Mods...
The STI has a Cobb 25mm hollow FSB and a Cobb catback.
The Wagon has Koni Inserts with GC Coilovers, 400lb springs f/r, Cusco Camber plates (redrilled for extra castor), Whiteline adj. rear lateral links, Whiteline 22mm FSB, Cusco adj. RSB)
| BlkWRXWag | 10-06-2005 06:49 PM |
Mako... Greg's WRX is DS, not AS:)
| makofoto | 10-06-2005 06:57 PM |
of course ... thanks
| PossumK | 10-06-2005 07:30 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Greg will chime in ... but he said the AS STI that he drove for the first time a few weeks ago ... on 225/17 215's ... just seemed like a more powerful AS WRX ... his usual ride.[/QUOTE]
Ah, I have to take that comment back now. :o
The car I drove three weeks earlier was an 04 STi with a Hotchkis hollow front sway bar and custom catback on Azenis 215. The 06 STI had a Cobb hollow front sway bar and Cobb catback on stock tires. Similar mods. Just for reference, my own WRX has a Whiteline 22mm solid front sway bar and is on Hankook R-S2's.
When I drove the 04, it was the first time driving an STi. I knew there would be a lot more torque that I could use, but was unaware that I could take advantage of the advanced differentials. I drove my first lap the same way I drove my WRX on the course, using the torque where I could at the exit of turns. I took the turns easier on the second lap because the owner said I was overdriving the Azenis (I had them screaming), and my lap time was two seconds slower. Since I drove the car like my WRX, and felt the similar effects of a front sway bar and limited camber, I thought it handled like a WRX but at higher speeds.
Three weeks later, I had six laps to drive the 06 STI. This time, I had plenty of advice from teammates about using the differentials. I also didn't have to worry about screeching Azenis and upsetting the owner. With each lap, I understood more what people were saying about trusting the differentials to induce oversteer and pull you out of a turn. It was shocking to experience this for the first time. To me, it felt like the differentials coupled with the torque of the STI allowed for faster times on the course. The car still slid as much as my WRX, but again at a higher speed, in some fast transitions from the lack of camber (the STX WRX almost didn't slide at all).
Cliff notes: I add nothing to the comparison of the 06 STI to previous MY STi's. :p
-Greg
Ah, I have to take that comment back now. :o
The car I drove three weeks earlier was an 04 STi with a Hotchkis hollow front sway bar and custom catback on Azenis 215. The 06 STI had a Cobb hollow front sway bar and Cobb catback on stock tires. Similar mods. Just for reference, my own WRX has a Whiteline 22mm solid front sway bar and is on Hankook R-S2's.
When I drove the 04, it was the first time driving an STi. I knew there would be a lot more torque that I could use, but was unaware that I could take advantage of the advanced differentials. I drove my first lap the same way I drove my WRX on the course, using the torque where I could at the exit of turns. I took the turns easier on the second lap because the owner said I was overdriving the Azenis (I had them screaming), and my lap time was two seconds slower. Since I drove the car like my WRX, and felt the similar effects of a front sway bar and limited camber, I thought it handled like a WRX but at higher speeds.
Three weeks later, I had six laps to drive the 06 STI. This time, I had plenty of advice from teammates about using the differentials. I also didn't have to worry about screeching Azenis and upsetting the owner. With each lap, I understood more what people were saying about trusting the differentials to induce oversteer and pull you out of a turn. It was shocking to experience this for the first time. To me, it felt like the differentials coupled with the torque of the STI allowed for faster times on the course. The car still slid as much as my WRX, but again at a higher speed, in some fast transitions from the lack of camber (the STX WRX almost didn't slide at all).
Cliff notes: I add nothing to the comparison of the 06 STI to previous MY STi's. :p
-Greg
| ewright | 10-06-2005 07:47 PM |
Greg,
Do you think it would be possible to explain what you mean by "using the differentials"? As an STi owner it would be great if you could share some insight about how to utilize my AWD system better. Thanks!
Ernie:)
Do you think it would be possible to explain what you mean by "using the differentials"? As an STi owner it would be great if you could share some insight about how to utilize my AWD system better. Thanks!
Ernie:)
| PossumK | 10-06-2005 07:59 PM |
[QUOTE=ewright]Greg,
Do you think it would be possible to explain what you mean by "using the differentials"? As an STi owner it would be great if you could share some insight about how to utilize my AWD system better. Thanks!
Ernie:)[/QUOTE]
Outside of an autocross, track, or rally conditions, I don't know when else you could experience it. It definitely isn't something you should be experiencing on the street.
In a tight autocross turn my WRX will understeer and push wide if I apply too much throttle too early mid corner. With the STI, it almost feels like the same thing's going to happen. However, when you apply the throttle, instead of pushing wide you get a little oversteer and the rear end comes around, pointing you more in the direction you want to go. Then you can apply more and more throttle and come out of the corner quite fast. This is what I believe people mean about trusting the differentials.
Do you think it would be possible to explain what you mean by "using the differentials"? As an STi owner it would be great if you could share some insight about how to utilize my AWD system better. Thanks!
Ernie:)[/QUOTE]
Outside of an autocross, track, or rally conditions, I don't know when else you could experience it. It definitely isn't something you should be experiencing on the street.
In a tight autocross turn my WRX will understeer and push wide if I apply too much throttle too early mid corner. With the STI, it almost feels like the same thing's going to happen. However, when you apply the throttle, instead of pushing wide you get a little oversteer and the rear end comes around, pointing you more in the direction you want to go. Then you can apply more and more throttle and come out of the corner quite fast. This is what I believe people mean about trusting the differentials.
| ewright | 10-06-2005 08:04 PM |
greg,
okay, I see exactly what you mean. I auto-x and track my STi somewhat often and I get that exact feeling. its awesome, like the more gas you give the better the car tracks and pulls you right out of the turn. I didnt understand what you meant by using the diffs but now I see what you are saying, and it is truly great!
Ernie:)
okay, I see exactly what you mean. I auto-x and track my STi somewhat often and I get that exact feeling. its awesome, like the more gas you give the better the car tracks and pulls you right out of the turn. I didnt understand what you meant by using the diffs but now I see what you are saying, and it is truly great!
Ernie:)
| WRXedUSA | 10-06-2005 09:51 PM |
My wheels are turning.
Just [I]How[/I] much easier is it to turn than a '05?? I find the STi 2005 a dream to drive, so easy to turn, drift and left foot brake.
Just [I]How[/I] much easier is it to turn than a '05?? I find the STi 2005 a dream to drive, so easy to turn, drift and left foot brake.
| psg | 10-06-2005 09:57 PM |
Ah, so now I know whose 06 STi was parked near the registration desk at the Subaru Saturday AutoX.
I must say, I'm really starting to like the look of the 06.
I must say, I'm really starting to like the look of the 06.
| BlkWRXWag | 10-06-2005 10:44 PM |
[QUOTE=psg]Ah, so now I know whose 06 STi was parked near the registration desk at the Subaru Saturday AutoX.
I must say, I'm really starting to like the look of the 06.[/QUOTE]
lol - actually, that wasn't mine... just someone who came out to watch. I didn't bring it out that weekend as I was still breaking it in.
I must say, I'm really starting to like the look of the 06.[/QUOTE]
lol - actually, that wasn't mine... just someone who came out to watch. I didn't bring it out that weekend as I was still breaking it in.
| PKer | 10-07-2005 01:25 PM |
I've driven stock 04, 05, and now Max's 06 STis at autocross, I can say that the 06 definitely handles better. The magic diffs make all the difference, it really is almost like cheating. In places where you would have to wait to get on the gas because of understeer you just mash it and go, the diffs seem to just pull you out.
The same goes for getting out of trouble, they say I looked out of sorts hauling it down in transitition after a high speed section, but I felt no more out of sorts than I would normally feel in my STX WRX, it's like I didn't have to wait for the car to settle before I started adding more inputs.
More steering? No problem.
More gas? No problem
More brakes then more gas? No problem.
The only time I could get the car to understeer was in a fast sweeper when I was already full throttle, that's the only time I was not able to adjust the car's attitude with the throttle.
Cliff's Notes: After driving '04/'05s I got out thinking they needed more camber and I could go faster in my car. After driving the '06 I got out thinking I need to get an '06 STi.
The same goes for getting out of trouble, they say I looked out of sorts hauling it down in transitition after a high speed section, but I felt no more out of sorts than I would normally feel in my STX WRX, it's like I didn't have to wait for the car to settle before I started adding more inputs.
More steering? No problem.
More gas? No problem
More brakes then more gas? No problem.
The only time I could get the car to understeer was in a fast sweeper when I was already full throttle, that's the only time I was not able to adjust the car's attitude with the throttle.
Cliff's Notes: After driving '04/'05s I got out thinking they needed more camber and I could go faster in my car. After driving the '06 I got out thinking I need to get an '06 STi.
| ewright | 10-07-2005 01:47 PM |
can someone tell me exactly what differences there are between the 04/05 and 06 diffs? thanks!
ernie
ernie
| trhoppe | 10-07-2005 01:48 PM |
I guess you people never drove the 05s like they should be driven. I could beat UP on my STX prepped WRX in a stock 05 STi. Other then a slight (for the worse) change in the center diff, the car is identical to the 05 STi ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| AndrewSS | 10-07-2005 02:06 PM |
"Featuring an electronically controlled centre limited-slip differential, a yaw-rate sensor and a new-for-2006 cam-type mechanical centre limited-slip differential and steering wheel-angle sensor, DCCD gives you the freedom and confidence to handle any road."
is that really true, i didnt think the DCCD system actually had a true YAW sensor like some of those mitsu systems i have heard about (in japan... not us, right?) anyway if that is true, thats fairly dramatic, but Tom you think otherwise?
?
is that really true, i didnt think the DCCD system actually had a true YAW sensor like some of those mitsu systems i have heard about (in japan... not us, right?) anyway if that is true, thats fairly dramatic, but Tom you think otherwise?
?
| makofoto | 10-07-2005 02:09 PM |
Ernie ... just what SOA said in the original post.
Tom thinks the changes are for the worse ... just like other Road Racers say the Auto position is not the way to go ... but for AX and/or Noobs ... the changes might be for the better. We have a number of ex-road racers who prefer the DCCD set to full rear ... so far, locally in AX they haven't been faster then the fellow(s) using it in Auto. ;)
Tom thinks the changes are for the worse ... just like other Road Racers say the Auto position is not the way to go ... but for AX and/or Noobs ... the changes might be for the better. We have a number of ex-road racers who prefer the DCCD set to full rear ... so far, locally in AX they haven't been faster then the fellow(s) using it in Auto. ;)
| trhoppe | 10-07-2005 02:10 PM |
The YAW sensor was there for 05 as well and I for one like the Auto setting in the 05, very predictable and very fast. Only move off of it for the wet. I don't care about the other stuff, but I think the move to a more front biased system is a bad one. The 05 has amazing pull off corners because of its 35/65 bias.
I guess what I'm commenting on is the "[email�protected] The car is so much flatter!!!! wow!!!! I'm impressed!!! I need [email�protected]" comments :)
-Tom
I guess what I'm commenting on is the "[email�protected] The car is so much flatter!!!! wow!!!! I'm impressed!!! I need [email�protected]" comments :)
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 10-07-2005 02:20 PM |
Many people screw up the handling of the STi with poor spring rate choices. If you drove one with a spring combination similar to an STX car, I'm not surprised that it didn't handle well.
| makofoto | 10-07-2005 02:32 PM |
I wonder why the EVO's don't use more of a split to the rear ? For those that don't know, they never put more then 50% rearwards ... and can go 100% forward. I think most people would agree that a stock Evo outhandles a stock STI. One of our teams had a stock Evo ... the Suby drivers that drove it, who had never driven an Evo before, where all amazed at how well it handled ... turn in, front end stick ... confidence inspiring, at least for non-national level drivers ... compared to their prepped STI's and WRX's.
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...
| trhoppe | 10-07-2005 02:33 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]I wonder why the EVO's don't use more of a split to the rear ? For those that don't know, they never put more then 50% rearwards ... and can go 100% forward. I think most people would agree that a stock Evo outhandles a stock STI. One of our teams had a stock Evo ... the Suby drivers that drove it, who had never driven an Evo before, where all amazed at how well it handled ... turn in, front end stick ... confidence inspiring, at least for non-national level drivers ... compared to their prepped STI's and WRX's.
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...[/QUOTE]
You have seen their 24mm (or is it 26mm) stock front swaybar right?'
-Tom
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...[/QUOTE]
You have seen their 24mm (or is it 26mm) stock front swaybar right?'
-Tom
| ewright | 10-07-2005 02:35 PM |
Thanks for the replies guys, I figured the changes werent huge. Well, I guess all that matters is that you like what you got, and I really love my 04 STi. Its a pure joy to have it out on the track or at an auto-x, it just works so darn well!
Ernie:)
Ernie:)
| AUTOwrXER | 10-07-2005 02:42 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]I wonder why the EVO's don't use more of a split to the rear ? For those that don't know, they never put more then 50% rearwards ... and can go 100% forward. I think most people would agree that a stock Evo outhandles a stock STI. One of our teams had a stock Evo ... the Suby drivers that drove it, who had never driven an Evo before, where all amazed at how well it handled ... turn in, front end stick ... confidence inspiring, at least for non-national level drivers ... compared to their prepped STI's and WRX's.
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...[/QUOTE]
I was told by Daddio and Tak that the configuration of the engine and tranny in the Evo makes it impossible to have a diff with more than 50% rear bias. If you watch those cars on course they handle like fwd cars; lots of rotation but no power-on oversteer.
IMO part of the improved Evo handling out of the box is because you can put more camber up front (in addition to the larger fsb).
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...[/QUOTE]
I was told by Daddio and Tak that the configuration of the engine and tranny in the Evo makes it impossible to have a diff with more than 50% rear bias. If you watch those cars on course they handle like fwd cars; lots of rotation but no power-on oversteer.
IMO part of the improved Evo handling out of the box is because you can put more camber up front (in addition to the larger fsb).
| AtomicRacer | 10-07-2005 02:54 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]
IMO part of the improved Evo handling out of the box is because you can put more camber up front (in addition to the larger fsb).[/QUOTE]
I would add also, the closer ratio steering "feels" better too.
-Paul
IMO part of the improved Evo handling out of the box is because you can put more camber up front (in addition to the larger fsb).[/QUOTE]
I would add also, the closer ratio steering "feels" better too.
-Paul
| buzz313th | 10-07-2005 03:36 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I guess you people never drove the 05s like they should be driven. I could beat UP on my STX prepped WRX in a stock 05 STi. Other then a slight (for the worse) change in the center diff, the car is identical to the 05 STi ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
:lol:
About 5 minutes ago Tom left work to testdrive an 06 STI and make sure he's just not experiencing denial.........
I'm sure all of your mods are compatible wih the 06.
JB
-Tom[/QUOTE]
:lol:
About 5 minutes ago Tom left work to testdrive an 06 STI and make sure he's just not experiencing denial.........
I'm sure all of your mods are compatible wih the 06.
JB
| trhoppe | 10-07-2005 03:45 PM |
Not really. I fully believe that on track, the one thing that will make the 05 STi superior is the better diff distribution. Also, I somehow don't think the cage will just "be compatible" ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| CirrusWRX | 10-07-2005 04:06 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Not really. I fully believe that on track, the one thing that will make the 05 STi superior is the better diff distribution. Also, I somehow don't think the cage will just "be compatible" ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
why tom don't plug 'n play weld-in cage? :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
why tom don't plug 'n play weld-in cage? :lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 10-07-2005 04:15 PM |
never mind...reading comprehension is good.
| trhoppe | 10-07-2005 04:48 PM |
[QUOTE=CirrusWRX]why tom don't plug 'n play weld-in cage? :lol:[/QUOTE]
Cause Tom wants to live if **** happens ;)
-Tom
Cause Tom wants to live if **** happens ;)
-Tom
| Arnie | 10-07-2005 04:54 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]I wonder why the EVO's don't use more of a split to the rear ? For those that don't know, they never put more then 50% rearwards ... and can go 100% forward. I think most people would agree that a stock Evo outhandles a stock STI. One of our teams had a stock Evo ... the Suby drivers that drove it, who had never driven an Evo before, where all amazed at how well it handled ... turn in, front end stick ... confidence inspiring, at least for non-national level drivers ... compared to their prepped STI's and WRX's.
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...[/QUOTE]
also, Evo's have always had a wider track compared to WRx's and STi's, by about an inch. Has always made a big difference in their turn in and handling qualities.
Does anyone know how the STI Yaw Sensor works ...[/QUOTE]
also, Evo's have always had a wider track compared to WRx's and STi's, by about an inch. Has always made a big difference in their turn in and handling qualities.
| PKer | 10-07-2005 07:33 PM |
The '06 is teh fast4r I NEED one!!!!1Eleventynine.
| DrBiggly | 10-07-2005 09:13 PM |
[QUOTE=Arnie]also, Evo's have always had a wider track compared to WRx's and STi's, by about an inch. Has always made a big difference in their turn in and handling qualities.[/QUOTE]
Arnie,
Front swaybar, a higher-in-the-rear-than-the-front springrate, and different dampers make the EVO a touch better handling on track for magazine editors in stock form. For folks that put it down better than someone who evaluated Taurus's, Minivans, SUVs, and then the occasional STi and EVO though typically the stock STi is a little faster.
The EVO is generally regarded to be more comfortable to be pushed right away vs. the STi but that doesn't necessarily mean it has "better handling." Just that it feels better. :)
-Biggly
Arnie,
Front swaybar, a higher-in-the-rear-than-the-front springrate, and different dampers make the EVO a touch better handling on track for magazine editors in stock form. For folks that put it down better than someone who evaluated Taurus's, Minivans, SUVs, and then the occasional STi and EVO though typically the stock STi is a little faster.
The EVO is generally regarded to be more comfortable to be pushed right away vs. the STi but that doesn't necessarily mean it has "better handling." Just that it feels better. :)
-Biggly
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 12:46 AM |
[QUOTE]Just that it feels better[/QUOTE]Well, with the driver being the biggest equation, if the driver feels more confident in a car, he will drive it more to the limts (or HIS limits that he feels he has with the car) and be faster in it. But if a car is a handful to drive, some might go slower because of lack of confidence. So that adds to it as well.
| EarlQHan | 10-08-2005 12:52 AM |
I'm liking the '06s more and more. The front end hasn't fully grown on me yet, but the performance seems to more than make up for it.
| WRXedUSA | 10-08-2005 01:03 AM |
Tom likes the '05.
All right!!!!!
I will say, the 2006 is growing on me. The performance is convincing me, steadily.
All right!!!!!
I will say, the 2006 is growing on me. The performance is convincing me, steadily.
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 01:08 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Not really. I fully believe that on track, the one thing that will make the 05 STi superior is the better diff distribution. [/QUOTE]
I don't mean to call you a dumbass or insinuate that I know a lot more about this than I do, but Subaru claims the new center diff performs better... obviously they sunk some R&D into it... can you give me a reason why, other than "more rear is more good" that the '05 setup is better? Other AWD cars don't use that much rear bias... AWD is better than RWD... if 35/65 is "better" then why isn't 0/100 "even more better"?
I don't mean to call you a dumbass or insinuate that I know a lot more about this than I do, but Subaru claims the new center diff performs better... obviously they sunk some R&D into it... can you give me a reason why, other than "more rear is more good" that the '05 setup is better? Other AWD cars don't use that much rear bias... AWD is better than RWD... if 35/65 is "better" then why isn't 0/100 "even more better"?
| makofoto | 10-08-2005 01:18 AM |
:lol: :cool: +1 4 Dave
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 01:55 AM |
[QUOTE]I don't mean to call you a dumbass or insinuate that I know a lot more about this than I do, but Subaru claims the new center diff performs better... obviously they sunk some R&D into it... can you give me a reason why, other than "more rear is more good" that the '05 setup is better? Other AWD cars don't use that much rear bias... AWD is better than RWD... if 35/65 is "better" then why isn't 0/100 "even more better"?[/QUOTE]If you look at the Audi TT and the VW R32, they are pretty much FWD cars with the added bonus of a sometimes AWD. The EVO is based on the Lancer, which is FWD (and why more goes to the front wheels, as well as the engine being sideways), same too the old Talon, Eclipse, and 3000GT. I imagine the Acura is as well, more FWD, and perhaps the Volvo S60R? Subaru was always designed as AWD, the rest would have to completely retool their vehicles to get that way. Its much easier to just take what they have, and modify it a bit.
In real world racing, unless it is given a lot of extra help, RWD cars DOMINATE racing! Period. Do you seel ALMS or Grand Am prototypes in FWD configuration? Any FWD at LeMans??? Ferrari? Porsche? BMW? Vettes? RX7 or RX8? New Dodge Magnum or R/T? Even the new hot GM cars like the GTO are RWD. Having a rear wheel bias is BEST! You can help modulate turns with the throttle. FWD is just too busy, with the front wheels not only doing the chore of TURNING the car, but having to power it as well. Sure, the Civics might dominate in AutoX, but just look at how lightweight tin cans those are? Oh, and even the NSX and S2000 are RWD too by the way. Even Lotus gave up on the junk FWD Elan they had some years back.
Take BMW as an example that NEWER is not always better. The original //M3 was a killer car! Fender flares, light weight, killer engine and suspensin, a race car sold for the street. Then came the E36 //M3. Luckily, it turned out to be good too, but was getting a bit milder. The new E46 //M3 is not too bad, but is more for the softer ride. They have gone farther away from their roots. Now look at the Datsun 240Z. Went from an excellent race car for the street, to the 260Z (JUNK!), then the 280Z (slush mobile), to the 300Z (nice looking, but too heavy and poor handling). Now imagine Subaru hearing all sorts of complaints about the STi's being too noisey, too stiff, yada yada yada . . . . . so then they start to water down the car for the GENERAL PUBLIC, which is a much larger buyers market then car nuts like us. So there is a chance that they too are making the new model lesser that the original ones. Heck, even the 04 and 05 are not real racers like the STi that the world has had for years before we got one! So yes, AWD CAN be better than RWD, and way better than FWD, but it is still better to have the more torque at the REAR wheels, than the front. And come on now, 0/100 would not even be AWD then, would it? :disco:
In real world racing, unless it is given a lot of extra help, RWD cars DOMINATE racing! Period. Do you seel ALMS or Grand Am prototypes in FWD configuration? Any FWD at LeMans??? Ferrari? Porsche? BMW? Vettes? RX7 or RX8? New Dodge Magnum or R/T? Even the new hot GM cars like the GTO are RWD. Having a rear wheel bias is BEST! You can help modulate turns with the throttle. FWD is just too busy, with the front wheels not only doing the chore of TURNING the car, but having to power it as well. Sure, the Civics might dominate in AutoX, but just look at how lightweight tin cans those are? Oh, and even the NSX and S2000 are RWD too by the way. Even Lotus gave up on the junk FWD Elan they had some years back.
Take BMW as an example that NEWER is not always better. The original //M3 was a killer car! Fender flares, light weight, killer engine and suspensin, a race car sold for the street. Then came the E36 //M3. Luckily, it turned out to be good too, but was getting a bit milder. The new E46 //M3 is not too bad, but is more for the softer ride. They have gone farther away from their roots. Now look at the Datsun 240Z. Went from an excellent race car for the street, to the 260Z (JUNK!), then the 280Z (slush mobile), to the 300Z (nice looking, but too heavy and poor handling). Now imagine Subaru hearing all sorts of complaints about the STi's being too noisey, too stiff, yada yada yada . . . . . so then they start to water down the car for the GENERAL PUBLIC, which is a much larger buyers market then car nuts like us. So there is a chance that they too are making the new model lesser that the original ones. Heck, even the 04 and 05 are not real racers like the STi that the world has had for years before we got one! So yes, AWD CAN be better than RWD, and way better than FWD, but it is still better to have the more torque at the REAR wheels, than the front. And come on now, 0/100 would not even be AWD then, would it? :disco:
| makofoto | 10-08-2005 02:06 AM |
Well the AWD Evo goes 100/0 ?
I don't think there is any doubt that AWD is easier to drive fast ... it compliments the driver. When the AWD heavy teams had to drive the Miata's ... we did pretty poorly! :(
But ... I think it's pretty neat that modern technology can be put to good use making us average drivers shine a bit. :lol:
I don't think there is any doubt that AWD is easier to drive fast ... it compliments the driver. When the AWD heavy teams had to drive the Miata's ... we did pretty poorly! :(
But ... I think it's pretty neat that modern technology can be put to good use making us average drivers shine a bit. :lol:
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 02:11 AM |
[QUOTE=z3coupe]So yes, AWD CAN be better than RWD, and way better than FWD, but it is still better to have the more torque at the REAR wheels, than the front. And come on now, 0/100 would not even be AWD then, would it? :disco:[/QUOTE]
So, what you're saying is that RWD is usually better than AWD? Or are you saying that AWD with more rear bias is better than RWD? How much rear bias? As much as possible? How about 1/99 then? Would that be the best? Or would 10/90 be better? Or is 35/65 the best possible bias? Maybe you could send Subaru's engineers an email and tell them how to make the car less noisy and harsh with the best rear bias so that all of the grandmas buying STI's are not disappointed?
So, what you're saying is that RWD is usually better than AWD? Or are you saying that AWD with more rear bias is better than RWD? How much rear bias? As much as possible? How about 1/99 then? Would that be the best? Or would 10/90 be better? Or is 35/65 the best possible bias? Maybe you could send Subaru's engineers an email and tell them how to make the car less noisy and harsh with the best rear bias so that all of the grandmas buying STI's are not disappointed?
| AndrewSS | 10-08-2005 02:35 AM |
dave... i would say the AWD vs RWD debate is quite situational... AWD has its benefits and RWD has its benefits, in terms of racing, RWD is eventually prefered... look at the race cars that are totally purpose built, they are RWD. AWD is great, but dont think that either is always better, however most of the time people would agree RWD is probably better... but the AWD system in the STi is great :)
| STi-MAN | 10-08-2005 02:38 AM |
see thats what i think is fishy also how could a 41/59 bias be better then a 35/65, look at the skyline that is a handling monster and the porsche 911 turbo, both heavily rear biased awd machines. thats what i dont like about the 06, when i put mine on full open the car handles great.
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 02:42 AM |
[QUOTE]So, what you're saying is that RWD is usually better than AWD?[/QUOTE]To a point, yes. Keith Casey some years back used to have a magnetic sticker for his STX WRX Wagon that said [B]PRAY FOR RAIN[/B]. He had that for a reason. Just look at the [URL=http://ww2.scca.com/soloresults.php?ID=43]SCCA 2004 Solo II National STX results[/URL]and you will see that Karl Asseilly was the fastest RWD car in the STX class, and came quite close to Tom's winning times - but IN THE RAIN. If it were dry, it could have been much different. And there was one FWD car in there too, a Mini. FWD also has its advantages - in the RAIN.[QUOTE]When the AWD heavy teams had to drive the Miata's ... we did pretty poorly![/QUOTE][QUOTE]But ... I think it's pretty neat that modern technology can be put to good use making us average drivers shine a bit[/QUOTE]So Mako, are you saying that without these modern driving AIDS, you can't compete? Too bad, will get you a handicap sticker for the next time I guess. :devil: A Miata is soooooo EASY to drive, sheesh! I am sure I could have done well in a Miata, after all, its like a Spitfire or a Lotus Elan, just more reliable. And those are what I grew up with and had for a lot of my life. Not to mention my old Z3 Coupe that I did quite well in not too long ago. Heck, maybe I should start thinking about that new [URL=http://tinyurl.com/9w45s]Z4 Coupe[/URL] BMW is coming out with . . . . . . :devil:
UPDATE: Looking again at this Z4, there is talk of a 365hp //M version coming too! WOW!!!!
UPDATE: Looking again at this Z4, there is talk of a 365hp //M version coming too! WOW!!!!
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 02:50 AM |
I would concede that a rearward bias (or pure RWD) is more beneficial in a high-traction situation like smooth asphalt, however the idea with the new center diff in the STI is that it reacts quicker, so that it works better in low-traction situations than the previous STI center differential.
So, if you're praying for rain, you should pray for the improved '06 center diff. If you're competing against RWD cars on hot, sticky tarmac, then you'd be (perhaps slightly) better off with the '05's higher rearward bias.
So, if you're praying for rain, you should pray for the improved '06 center diff. If you're competing against RWD cars on hot, sticky tarmac, then you'd be (perhaps slightly) better off with the '05's higher rearward bias.
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 02:52 AM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN]see thats what i think is fishy also how could a 41/59 bias be better then a 35/65, [/QUOTE]
How could a 35/65 bias be better than a 0/100 bias? :devil:
How could a 35/65 bias be better than a 0/100 bias? :devil:
| racerxs | 10-08-2005 02:53 AM |
Are you guys leaving the DCCD in auto? I have an 05' and always feel it does better when I lock it all the way to the rear.
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 02:53 AM |
[QUOTE]So, if you're praying for rain, you should pray for the improved '06 center diff. If you're competing against RWD cars on hot, sticky tarmac, then you'd be (perhaps slightly) better off with the '05's higher rearward bias.[/QUOTE]Don't rain much here in SoCal, only fires and earthquakes :lol: And even if it does rain, the 06 diff won't help much on the streets, cause 1 drop of water on the roads here, and people turn STUPID.
Glad I was raised back in Chicago - I learned to drive on black ice, snow, slush, and anything else you could think of :devil:
Glad I was raised back in Chicago - I learned to drive on black ice, snow, slush, and anything else you could think of :devil:
| STi-MAN | 10-08-2005 02:55 AM |
[QUOTE=Davemeister]How could a 35/65 bias be better than a 0/100 bias? :devil:[/QUOTE]
of course it cant, rwd rule on the track on a non rainy day. awd are more consistent in low traction environments but full rwd rule. that being said how could 41/59 be better then 35/65.
of course it cant, rwd rule on the track on a non rainy day. awd are more consistent in low traction environments but full rwd rule. that being said how could 41/59 be better then 35/65.
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 03:00 AM |
[QUOTE]Are you guys leaving the DCCD in auto? I have an 05' and always feel it does better when I lock it all the way to the rear.[/QUOTE]Do a search on the DCCD issue, and you'll find a zillion posts about it. One was gosh only knows how many pages long. Some of the most knowledgeable guys (John Felsted???) got real technical about it, having played with all sorts of the DCCD's since it first came out in the old NON USA model STi's. I think he is an Aussie? But it does not work in the manner we keep thinking it does - putting power to the front or rear. It has to do with the torque split, and how the computer manages it. But from what I remember, John had posted all sorts of diagrams, tech notes, and mathmatical formulas to explain things.
For me, I do prefer it in full rear mode though, but am still tinkering, so not definitive answer for you.
Oh, remembered on thing - John had some trick to change the DCCD while driving on race tracks, and even did something with his parking brake to induce some sort of cornering trick. He had all sorts of thoughts on the DCCD :cool:
For me, I do prefer it in full rear mode though, but am still tinkering, so not definitive answer for you.
Oh, remembered on thing - John had some trick to change the DCCD while driving on race tracks, and even did something with his parking brake to induce some sort of cornering trick. He had all sorts of thoughts on the DCCD :cool:
| STi-MAN | 10-08-2005 03:02 AM |
he said he likes it in full rear mode also, he just used the word lock when lock actually refers to moving the knob forward to 50/50.
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 03:15 AM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN]of course it cant, rwd rule on the track on a non rainy day. awd are more consistent in low traction environments but full rwd rule. that being said how could 41/59 be better then 35/65.[/QUOTE]
How can 35/65 be better than 0/100 (RWD)? REDUCED TRACTION CONDITIONS.
By the same token, 50/50, or 41/59 can be better than 35/65 or 0/100, in REDUCED TRACTION conditions, particulary if the differential reacts more quickly to loss of traction, which the '06 is reported to. Not that I know for sure, but I don't see any Subaru engineers posting yet, nor do I see anyone who could give the Subaru engineers a lesson in car performance posting yet.
See, here's the thing. Everybody and their brother knows that RWD is best for handling and low drivetrain losses when traction is high.
If you already know this to the point of being worried about losing 6% of the rearward bias, then what are you doing driving a Subaru in the first place? If you want the best, you should dump whatever year STi/STI you have and get a car that uses the new, superior "rear wheel drive" technology, like a Miata or a 350Z or something! :lol:
How can 35/65 be better than 0/100 (RWD)? REDUCED TRACTION CONDITIONS.
By the same token, 50/50, or 41/59 can be better than 35/65 or 0/100, in REDUCED TRACTION conditions, particulary if the differential reacts more quickly to loss of traction, which the '06 is reported to. Not that I know for sure, but I don't see any Subaru engineers posting yet, nor do I see anyone who could give the Subaru engineers a lesson in car performance posting yet.
See, here's the thing. Everybody and their brother knows that RWD is best for handling and low drivetrain losses when traction is high.
If you already know this to the point of being worried about losing 6% of the rearward bias, then what are you doing driving a Subaru in the first place? If you want the best, you should dump whatever year STi/STI you have and get a car that uses the new, superior "rear wheel drive" technology, like a Miata or a 350Z or something! :lol:
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 04:48 AM |
[QUOTE]If you already know this to the point of being worried about losing 6% of the rearward bias, then what are you doing driving a Subaru in the first place? If you want the best, you should dump whatever year STi/STI you have and get a car that uses the new, superior "rear wheel drive" technology, like a Miata or a 350Z or something[/QUOTE]Well, if YOU want so much AWD traction, then why not get one of [URL=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm]THESE[/URL] :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: Then you could TRULY be the king of the road, and no one will argue with you :banana:
| SR-71WRX | 10-08-2005 04:58 AM |
Hey Max... I met you a loooong time ago (well, more like 2 years ago) at that Long Beach meet that had us switching locations and driving all over the place. I had the sedan that was your twin with the same wheels and prodrive lamps. Anyway, congrats on the new ride!
Anyway, I'm probably gonna trade in my wrx for an 06 STI within the next 3 months.
My question and input for this thread is:
WHERE ARE THE STINKING PICS?!?!?!
Anyway, I'm probably gonna trade in my wrx for an 06 STI within the next 3 months.
My question and input for this thread is:
WHERE ARE THE STINKING PICS?!?!?!
| makofoto | 10-08-2005 10:18 AM |
The DVD of photos was suppose to get dropped off yesterday ... but the fellow couldn't make it ...
Rocky ... It was the first time I've auto crossed a Miata ... and even the car owner, who's only done a few laps with it ... thought that perhaps something was suspect about it. You could dive hard into corners with it ... but it was SO throttle sensitive on corner exit ... more so then the Z-06 that I've driven on occasion ... with all of the traction control and Competition mode off ? It was a handful for all of us ...
Rocky ... It was the first time I've auto crossed a Miata ... and even the car owner, who's only done a few laps with it ... thought that perhaps something was suspect about it. You could dive hard into corners with it ... but it was SO throttle sensitive on corner exit ... more so then the Z-06 that I've driven on occasion ... with all of the traction control and Competition mode off ? It was a handful for all of us ...
| Got Pink? | 10-08-2005 12:03 PM |
6% of torque bias does make a significant difference and there is no point arguing abou that. The real question is how much did the DCCD and diffs really change and how much more does the 06 really weigh and is that worth giving up the 6% more rear torque bias?
My best guess would be the 05 is still the best but if anyone has any real info about the weight gain or dccd and diff changes from 05 I would like to know about it.
Nate
My best guess would be the 05 is still the best but if anyone has any real info about the weight gain or dccd and diff changes from 05 I would like to know about it.
Nate
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 12:37 PM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]The real question is how much did the DCCD and diffs really change [/QUOTE]
Precisely what I'm trying to get at; there is an electronically managed, different/"improved" center diff and a steering input sensor which is supposed to "work better" according to Subaru.
Given the exact same diff characteristics, I would not argue that less rear bias would be better except perhaps in very slippery conditions- just like RWD is generally better than AWD except in slippery conditions like a rainy track day or a sandy/gravel-covered course.
But Subaru claims that this diff reacts more quickly and is "better." I'm just looking for a technical explanation of *how* and *when* it is better (or worse.)
Precisely what I'm trying to get at; there is an electronically managed, different/"improved" center diff and a steering input sensor which is supposed to "work better" according to Subaru.
Given the exact same diff characteristics, I would not argue that less rear bias would be better except perhaps in very slippery conditions- just like RWD is generally better than AWD except in slippery conditions like a rainy track day or a sandy/gravel-covered course.
But Subaru claims that this diff reacts more quickly and is "better." I'm just looking for a technical explanation of *how* and *when* it is better (or worse.)
| STi-MAN | 10-08-2005 12:50 PM |
[QUOTE=Davemeister]How can 35/65 be better than 0/100 (RWD)? REDUCED TRACTION CONDITIONS.
By the same token, 50/50, or 41/59 can be better than 35/65 or 0/100, in REDUCED TRACTION conditions, particulary if the differential reacts more quickly to loss of traction, which the '06 is reported to. Not that I know for sure, but I don't see any Subaru engineers posting yet, nor do I see anyone who could give the Subaru engineers a lesson in car performance posting yet.
See, here's the thing. Everybody and their brother knows that RWD is best for handling and low drivetrain losses when traction is high.
If you already know this to the point of being worried about losing 6% of the rearward bias, then what are you doing driving a Subaru in the first place? If you want the best, you should dump whatever year STi/STI you have and get a car that uses the new, superior "rear wheel drive" technology, like a Miata or a 350Z or something! :lol:[/QUOTE]
i just said exactly what you just said. yes i kno why i bought a sti, but you can adjust the lock on a 05 to simulate a 41/59 bias. where as in a 06 you cant adjust 35/65. maybe you should also tell skyline owners and porsche owners to dump they're cars for for a miata.
By the same token, 50/50, or 41/59 can be better than 35/65 or 0/100, in REDUCED TRACTION conditions, particulary if the differential reacts more quickly to loss of traction, which the '06 is reported to. Not that I know for sure, but I don't see any Subaru engineers posting yet, nor do I see anyone who could give the Subaru engineers a lesson in car performance posting yet.
See, here's the thing. Everybody and their brother knows that RWD is best for handling and low drivetrain losses when traction is high.
If you already know this to the point of being worried about losing 6% of the rearward bias, then what are you doing driving a Subaru in the first place? If you want the best, you should dump whatever year STi/STI you have and get a car that uses the new, superior "rear wheel drive" technology, like a Miata or a 350Z or something! :lol:[/QUOTE]
i just said exactly what you just said. yes i kno why i bought a sti, but you can adjust the lock on a 05 to simulate a 41/59 bias. where as in a 06 you cant adjust 35/65. maybe you should also tell skyline owners and porsche owners to dump they're cars for for a miata.
| ChrisF | 10-08-2005 01:12 PM |
I'm very curious now to drive an '06. I've driven both the '04 and own an '05 and have to say that for me, hands down, the '05 handles better. Much more predictable out of the corner and it's amazing how much speed it can carry out.
As for DCCD, maybe it's my inexperience but in sequential autox runs switching from auto to full rear, my times were consistently faster in auto mode. When I tried with full rear bias, I could simply not enter or exit corners as fast without spinning.
As for DCCD, maybe it's my inexperience but in sequential autox runs switching from auto to full rear, my times were consistently faster in auto mode. When I tried with full rear bias, I could simply not enter or exit corners as fast without spinning.
| Davemeister | 10-08-2005 01:35 PM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN]but you can adjust the lock on a 05 to simulate a 41/59 bias. where as in a 06 you cant adjust 35/65. maybe you should also tell skyline owners and porsche owners to dump they're cars for for a miata.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should relax and have a beer? :lol:
The question remains, does the diff perform better as Subaru says it does, regardless of front/real bias capability?
In other words, yes, you are right, you can set 41/59 on the '05, but will it work as well as the '06 at 41/59 or is the '06 diff "better"? You don't know. So far, no one seems to, but Subaru says it is better.
Everyone's reason that the '05 is better is because of more rear bias... is a limited slip center diff made from popsicle sticks and paste with a 71% rear bias better than the one in your STi? It has more rear bias! Do you get the point now?
Maybe you should relax and have a beer? :lol:
The question remains, does the diff perform better as Subaru says it does, regardless of front/real bias capability?
In other words, yes, you are right, you can set 41/59 on the '05, but will it work as well as the '06 at 41/59 or is the '06 diff "better"? You don't know. So far, no one seems to, but Subaru says it is better.
Everyone's reason that the '05 is better is because of more rear bias... is a limited slip center diff made from popsicle sticks and paste with a 71% rear bias better than the one in your STi? It has more rear bias! Do you get the point now?
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