| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 04:38 PM |
Well, did you do any searches for the DCCD masters so to ask them?
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246635&highlight=dccd+John]DCCD Details Needed[/URL]
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297555&highlight=dccd+John]This is from the man, Jonh Felstead = READ THIS ONE and ask him[/URL]
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226610]This might be interesting reading too, though old[/URL]
Here is John's own website: [url]http://www.johnfelstead.co.uk/[/url] And in the meantime, I sent him a note to try and reply on here. For the many years he has had DCCD, modded it, raced on it, and knows it almost inside out, I feel what ever his oppinion on this would be the end of the argument.
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246635&highlight=dccd+John]DCCD Details Needed[/URL]
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297555&highlight=dccd+John]This is from the man, Jonh Felstead = READ THIS ONE and ask him[/URL]
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226610]This might be interesting reading too, though old[/URL]
Here is John's own website: [url]http://www.johnfelstead.co.uk/[/url] And in the meantime, I sent him a note to try and reply on here. For the many years he has had DCCD, modded it, raced on it, and knows it almost inside out, I feel what ever his oppinion on this would be the end of the argument.
| makofoto | 10-08-2005 11:22 PM |
But why would John know anything about the US '06 changes ?
John is an (english) "road racer" ... I believe that in this thread we are mainly concerned with how the differentials work and help in an autocross enviroment. We have a number of ex road racers that insist on AX'ing with the DCCD in full rear lock ... but they are slower then the autocrossers using theirs in full Auto.
Some of our ex road racing AX'ers have proclaimed some of our fast AX set-up STI's and WRX's "undrivable." They don't seem to understand that AX'ing is not road racing ... different lines, different requirements. I think their input is sometimes not useful to us.
When I started to take rides with experienced AX'ers ... I was surprised to find that my road racing techniques did not necessarily apply, ie. longer shallower "faster" lines vs. more direct apex to apex _shorter_ lines.
John is an (english) "road racer" ... I believe that in this thread we are mainly concerned with how the differentials work and help in an autocross enviroment. We have a number of ex road racers that insist on AX'ing with the DCCD in full rear lock ... but they are slower then the autocrossers using theirs in full Auto.
Some of our ex road racing AX'ers have proclaimed some of our fast AX set-up STI's and WRX's "undrivable." They don't seem to understand that AX'ing is not road racing ... different lines, different requirements. I think their input is sometimes not useful to us.
When I started to take rides with experienced AX'ers ... I was surprised to find that my road racing techniques did not necessarily apply, ie. longer shallower "faster" lines vs. more direct apex to apex _shorter_ lines.
| z3coupe | 10-08-2005 11:35 PM |
Mako, for ONCE just cool it with the he said this, she said that, yada yada yada. John has EXPERIENCE with DCCD. How it works, how it is put together, and how to even MODIFY it - better than ANYONE ELSE on here. And BECAUSE he is English, he has been using the DCCD way longer than anyone here in the USA. And the other guy I contacted to post in here (Kaos I think it is), even designed a black box controller (VTV???) for the DCCD. So sit back patiently, and hope they answer this. It MIGHT be quite informative for you. Did you ever go LOOK at these old posts before writting in here? :disco:
| makofoto | 10-08-2005 11:52 PM |
Of course ... I've followed John's posts and have communicated with him in the past. I just pointed out that his perspective might not necessarily apply to AX'ing. John of course likes his center dif locked full back ... great/better for road racing. From past discussions with John ... I think he's only once done something like AX'ing with the Spec C that he use to have.
Perhaps once the STI's really get developed for AX ... more lock back will be better ... making the '05's extra valuable. In more stock form, or in the hands of noobs to middling drivers ... full auto might be better. No doubt ... full auto works faster then a human. :D
Perhaps once the STI's really get developed for AX ... more lock back will be better ... making the '05's extra valuable. In more stock form, or in the hands of noobs to middling drivers ... full auto might be better. No doubt ... full auto works faster then a human. :D
| z3coupe | 10-09-2005 12:06 AM |
There is a reason that the C5/C6 Z06 Vettes with their bells and whistles, my old and even the newer BMW's with their stablility control, and many other cars with gadgets in them have an OFF button. And in most magazines, all the test drivers seem to use that OFF button as well - sure the computer is faster than the human mind. But can it REALLY help make the car handle better than an experienced driver? Not always. Like I once mentioned before, in my old Z3 Coupe, which had DSC (dynamic stablility control), in the dry all of us BMW drivers turned it off, like clockwork. But at one event in the rain at Buttomwillow, I tried it on because I thought the computer would HELP me win in the rain. Was I WRONG! I came to a Chicago style box, and when I hit the brakes, the car went one way, when I was EXPECTING it to go the other way. And the computer's way was WRONG. I lost that race, and that effect was felt at the end of the year for points.
Now, DCCD is different from DSC, but it is still controlling the car in ways that I might not want it to, or expect it to do from my previous car's experiences (RWD). So for me, most of the time I do prefer more of a rear ballance. I am still experimenting, but with only 3 runs at an event, it don't leave much time to. Will eventually get to a practive event to try it out more after the new stuff is on the car.
Now, DCCD is different from DSC, but it is still controlling the car in ways that I might not want it to, or expect it to do from my previous car's experiences (RWD). So for me, most of the time I do prefer more of a rear ballance. I am still experimenting, but with only 3 runs at an event, it don't leave much time to. Will eventually get to a practive event to try it out more after the new stuff is on the car.
| makofoto | 10-09-2005 12:34 AM |
The last four practice events have not been full ...
Since our cars basically, inherently understeer ... letting the DCCD pull the car out of it's typical corner exit understeer under full power is proving to be faster then a driver trying to balance the car in a drive induced over steer. In fact the DCCD ends up letting the driver go from it's "natural" understeer condition to a very controllable power on oversteer attitude.
I'm not sure ... but doesn't (didn't?) the F1 traction control allow the drivers to just give gas while the computer played out the exact amount necessary to give optimum traction. Maybe this isn't "fair" or a pure test of human skills ... but that's technology for you. The STI DCCD is allowing less experienced drivers to more easily post decent times. An experienced, "better" driver should still be able to do what it takes to post even faster times.
Just like a lot of newer STI drivers haven't "properly" tried out the manual rear setting lock on their STI's ... I don't think you have given the Auto setting enough of a try. We all have to go beyond our comfort zone sometimes to try out new things. :p
I hope you sent in your check for the practice event on Oct. 22nd. You should still be able to get in if you get your check in right away on Monday ... I think ultimately postdate counts ... but lately the practices haven't been selling out. This event didn't sell out last year.
Still don't have the shots of our '06 STI ... but here is Roman with his "05 STI in Full Auto powering into the finish last Sunday:
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/RomanPowerSlide-vi.jpg[/img]
Since our cars basically, inherently understeer ... letting the DCCD pull the car out of it's typical corner exit understeer under full power is proving to be faster then a driver trying to balance the car in a drive induced over steer. In fact the DCCD ends up letting the driver go from it's "natural" understeer condition to a very controllable power on oversteer attitude.
I'm not sure ... but doesn't (didn't?) the F1 traction control allow the drivers to just give gas while the computer played out the exact amount necessary to give optimum traction. Maybe this isn't "fair" or a pure test of human skills ... but that's technology for you. The STI DCCD is allowing less experienced drivers to more easily post decent times. An experienced, "better" driver should still be able to do what it takes to post even faster times.
Just like a lot of newer STI drivers haven't "properly" tried out the manual rear setting lock on their STI's ... I don't think you have given the Auto setting enough of a try. We all have to go beyond our comfort zone sometimes to try out new things. :p
I hope you sent in your check for the practice event on Oct. 22nd. You should still be able to get in if you get your check in right away on Monday ... I think ultimately postdate counts ... but lately the practices haven't been selling out. This event didn't sell out last year.
Still don't have the shots of our '06 STI ... but here is Roman with his "05 STI in Full Auto powering into the finish last Sunday:
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/RomanPowerSlide-vi.jpg[/img]
| SlideWRX | 10-10-2005 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE=z3coupe]
In real world racing, unless it is given a lot of extra help, RWD cars DOMINATE racing! Period. [/QUOTE]
Is Rally real world racing? :p back when the Group-B (purpose built race cars) cars were getting popular, they were leaving RWD behind.
Audi was winning easily in touring car AWD several year ago as well.
I'd say for very lightweight cars the weight of AWD may more of a hindrance than a help, but it does have its usefullness, even on asphalt.
Tom
In real world racing, unless it is given a lot of extra help, RWD cars DOMINATE racing! Period. [/QUOTE]
Is Rally real world racing? :p back when the Group-B (purpose built race cars) cars were getting popular, they were leaving RWD behind.
Audi was winning easily in touring car AWD several year ago as well.
I'd say for very lightweight cars the weight of AWD may more of a hindrance than a help, but it does have its usefullness, even on asphalt.
Tom
| Shavenyak | 10-10-2005 06:37 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto][img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/RomanPowerSlide-vi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Hahahah, I went into the slalom to see how fast I could take it. Wasn't really a slalom, more like one cone to manuver around. I went to WAAAAAYYYYYY to hot while trying to emulate Ken Motonishi and got behind with my steering input. I ended up absolutely CREAMING that blackened cone to the left of the pic and shot it about 20+ feet away. Seen below:
[IMG]http://images15.fotki.com/v227/photos/7/744012/2718906/IMG_6088-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Believe it or not, I didn't hit any other cones or take out the timing light. :disco:
--Roman
Hahahah, I went into the slalom to see how fast I could take it. Wasn't really a slalom, more like one cone to manuver around. I went to WAAAAAYYYYYY to hot while trying to emulate Ken Motonishi and got behind with my steering input. I ended up absolutely CREAMING that blackened cone to the left of the pic and shot it about 20+ feet away. Seen below:
[IMG]http://images15.fotki.com/v227/photos/7/744012/2718906/IMG_6088-vi.jpg[/IMG]
Believe it or not, I didn't hit any other cones or take out the timing light. :disco:
--Roman
| Evil STI | 10-10-2005 06:45 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Many people screw up the handling of the STi with poor spring rate choices. If you drove one with a spring combination similar to an STX car, I'm not surprised that it didn't handle well.[/QUOTE]
I wish more people realized this simple fact when setting this car up.
I wish more people realized this simple fact when setting this car up.
| z3coupe | 10-12-2005 03:54 PM |
Someone had mentioned this while talking about the new 06 WRC Rally Subaru:[QUOTE]the latest wrc tarmac version default arrangement sends massive power to the rear wheel, i once heard they revised split on the diff so the rear needed more attention like more neg. camber...[/QUOTE]Hmmm then, this should put the 06 DCCD post to rest then? Subaru made the street version more watered down for the common Joe on the street to be safe (like how almost all mfgrs build in understeer in their cars), but the true competition model DOES have more rear bias??? :devil:
(Thanks to Eric S from TB for the above quote I used)
(Thanks to Eric S from TB for the above quote I used)
| Davemeister | 10-12-2005 09:08 PM |
[QUOTE=z3coupe]Someone had mentioned this while talking about the new 06 WRC Rally Subaru:Hmmm then, this should put the 06 DCCD post to rest then? Subaru made the street version more watered down for the common Joe on the street to be safe (like how almost all mfgrs build in understeer in their cars), but the true competition model DOES have more rear bias??? :devil:
(Thanks to Eric S from TB for the above quote I used)[/QUOTE]
Wow, so Eric S from TB heard someone say that the WRC car is less watered down than the STi? Consider me convinced! :lol:
(Thanks to Eric S from TB for the above quote I used)[/QUOTE]
Wow, so Eric S from TB heard someone say that the WRC car is less watered down than the STi? Consider me convinced! :lol:
| z3coupe | 10-12-2005 11:12 PM |
[QUOTE]Wow, so Eric S from TB heard someone say that the WRC car is less watered down than the STi? Consider me convinced![/QUOTE]Well Mr Meister, I have a little quote for you from the almighty Bruce Campbell in Army of Darkness [QUOTE][B]Duke Henry[/B]: You're not one of my vassals... who are you?
[B]Ash[/B]: Who wants to know?
[B]Duke Henry[/B]: I am Henry the Red. Duke of Shale, Lord of the Northlands and leader of its peoples.
[B]Ash[/B]: Well hello Mister Fancypants. Well, I've got news for you pal, you ain't leadin' but two things: Jack and *****... and Jack just left town.
[/QUOTE]I guess in your case Jack left town too? :lol: :lol: :lol:
[B]Ash[/B]: Who wants to know?
[B]Duke Henry[/B]: I am Henry the Red. Duke of Shale, Lord of the Northlands and leader of its peoples.
[B]Ash[/B]: Well hello Mister Fancypants. Well, I've got news for you pal, you ain't leadin' but two things: Jack and *****... and Jack just left town.
[/QUOTE]I guess in your case Jack left town too? :lol: :lol: :lol:
| MidnightSti05 | 10-12-2005 11:35 PM |
[QUOTE=Davemeister]Maybe you should relax and have a beer? :lol:
The question remains, does the diff perform better as Subaru says it does, regardless of front/real bias capability?
In other words, yes, you are right, you can set 41/59 on the '05, but will it work as well as the '06 at 41/59 or is the '06 diff "better"? You don't know. So far, no one seems to, but Subaru says it is better.
Everyone's reason that the '05 is better is because of more rear bias... is a limited slip center diff made from popsicle sticks and paste with a 71% rear bias better than the one in your STi? It has more rear bias! Do you get the point now?[/QUOTE]
:lol: great response :lol:
The question remains, does the diff perform better as Subaru says it does, regardless of front/real bias capability?
In other words, yes, you are right, you can set 41/59 on the '05, but will it work as well as the '06 at 41/59 or is the '06 diff "better"? You don't know. So far, no one seems to, but Subaru says it is better.
Everyone's reason that the '05 is better is because of more rear bias... is a limited slip center diff made from popsicle sticks and paste with a 71% rear bias better than the one in your STi? It has more rear bias! Do you get the point now?[/QUOTE]
:lol: great response :lol:
| Davemeister | 10-12-2005 11:46 PM |
Hey, now, my whole point is, "Inheriting a million dollars is great, and so is more rear bias"
BUT, if inheritance tax is 99%, and the diffs work :better, which is still better? I don't know! We all know the WRC car >* any production Impreza. What I want to know is, give the "improved" peformance (and I put that in quotes because it is Subaru's claim) does this negate the difference in rear bias from the '05 to the '06 and then some, or what? Who can explain this? So far, all I've seen is a Subaru press release that says it is "better" for '06, but I've worked with enough marketing people to take that with a grain of salt; and there are plenty of '05 owners who want to think their car is better. Sure, I'm an '06 owner and I guess I want to think my car is "better" too, but **** all that, I want to know, Subaru claims the electronically controlled center diff peforms "better" and I want to know what that means. Better for Grandma? Better for Autocross? Better when not in Manual mode? Please, someone who is not Subaru marketing or some "more rear bias is better" drone, please let us know what the **** is up with the new diff!
BUT, if inheritance tax is 99%, and the diffs work :better, which is still better? I don't know! We all know the WRC car >* any production Impreza. What I want to know is, give the "improved" peformance (and I put that in quotes because it is Subaru's claim) does this negate the difference in rear bias from the '05 to the '06 and then some, or what? Who can explain this? So far, all I've seen is a Subaru press release that says it is "better" for '06, but I've worked with enough marketing people to take that with a grain of salt; and there are plenty of '05 owners who want to think their car is better. Sure, I'm an '06 owner and I guess I want to think my car is "better" too, but **** all that, I want to know, Subaru claims the electronically controlled center diff peforms "better" and I want to know what that means. Better for Grandma? Better for Autocross? Better when not in Manual mode? Please, someone who is not Subaru marketing or some "more rear bias is better" drone, please let us know what the **** is up with the new diff!
| SR-71WRX | 10-13-2005 01:50 AM |
I'm still waiting for the pics... :lol:
| makofoto | 10-13-2005 02:16 AM |
The handsome generous english Gentleman's '06 STI that we got to play with ... Greg driving ...
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v219/photos/4/43793/2710569/GregSTI-vi.jpg[/img]
Cobb axle back, 24 mm front SB ...
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v219/photos/4/43793/2710569/GregSTI-vi.jpg[/img]
Cobb axle back, 24 mm front SB ...
| Shavenyak | 10-13-2005 02:16 AM |
Davemeister: Nice Eddie Izzard reference :D
--Roman
--Roman
| z3coupe | 10-13-2005 02:21 AM |
[QUOTE]Who can explain this? So far, all I've seen is a Subaru press release that says it is "better" for '06, but I've worked with enough marketing people to take that with a grain of salt; and there are plenty of '05 owners who want to think their car is better. Sure, I'm an '06 owner and I guess I want to think my car is "better" too[/QUOTE]In all seriousness, all jokes and punches aside, I too want to know this as well. Is it a BIG difference, or a small difference? But I doubt Subaru will tell us. What we need is an engineer with experience in drivetrain to take a look at this and tell us his non biased findings. Or if only John Felstead would post in here what his thoughts are. He was quite technical in his postings about prior DCCD and diffs.
At least one good part of all this is, they are ALL Subaru's, and not the enemy = EVO :disco:
At least one good part of all this is, they are ALL Subaru's, and not the enemy = EVO :disco:
| makofoto | 10-13-2005 02:21 AM |
Seb driving ...
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v242/photos/4/43793/2710569/SebLookingAhead-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v242/photos/4/43793/2710569/SebLookingAhead-vi.jpg[/img]
| CirrusWRX | 10-13-2005 09:47 AM |
excellant!
[img]http://www.mip.sdu.dk/~kaspers/research/ant_cartoon.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.mip.sdu.dk/~kaspers/research/ant_cartoon.jpg[/img]
| KC | 10-13-2005 10:26 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]The handsome generous english Gentleman's '06 STI that we got to play with ... Greg driving ...
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v219/photos/4/43793/2710569/GregSTI-vi.jpg[/img]
Cobb axle back, 24 mm front SB ...[/QUOTE]
Nice looking ahead... but it's still picking up the rear wheel. Is the issue still there when the rear wheel settles, it unsettles the car?
If the DCCD is set to the rear, and the car still picks up the rear, when it settles, that rear wheel is going to get even more power and unsettle the car more, no? Or has the snap of the wheel landing been fixed for '06? (weren't STis breaking diffs in this scenario?)
--kC
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v219/photos/4/43793/2710569/GregSTI-vi.jpg[/img]
Cobb axle back, 24 mm front SB ...[/QUOTE]
Nice looking ahead... but it's still picking up the rear wheel. Is the issue still there when the rear wheel settles, it unsettles the car?
If the DCCD is set to the rear, and the car still picks up the rear, when it settles, that rear wheel is going to get even more power and unsettle the car more, no? Or has the snap of the wheel landing been fixed for '06? (weren't STis breaking diffs in this scenario?)
--kC
| PossumK | 10-13-2005 12:53 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Nice looking ahead... but it's still picking up the rear wheel. Is the issue still there when the rear wheel settles, it unsettles the car?
[/QUOTE]
What would it feel like if the rear wheel unsettled the car? I don't remember feeling anything negative in that turn. The car and DCCD, set to auto, performed as expected throughout the turn.
Mako, I noticed you photoshopped out the Subaru emblem. The black 06 definitely looks better without it! :banana:
[/QUOTE]
What would it feel like if the rear wheel unsettled the car? I don't remember feeling anything negative in that turn. The car and DCCD, set to auto, performed as expected throughout the turn.
Mako, I noticed you photoshopped out the Subaru emblem. The black 06 definitely looks better without it! :banana:
| KC | 10-13-2005 01:01 PM |
There were reports from the '04/05 crowd that when the rear wheel re-connected with the ground under power, it unsettled the car. That's all I know. THere are others that had reported it. Just following up on it.
| Draken | 10-13-2005 01:06 PM |
The problems with lifting the inside rear wheel were noticed more at nationals in 2004, for me. Thanks to the grip from the 275 Hoosiers. The car was very jerky coming off corners. Hard to explain the feeling, other than it just sorta bucked and bounced a lot on throttle as the tire would come back down.
Me, Kikko, and I think Joel were dealing with the same issues. Kikko actualy broke a couple rear diffs.
Many of us have since worked quite hard to keep the rear tire on the ground through setup changes, and the results is much smoother operation.
Chris H.
Me, Kikko, and I think Joel were dealing with the same issues. Kikko actualy broke a couple rear diffs.
Many of us have since worked quite hard to keep the rear tire on the ground through setup changes, and the results is much smoother operation.
Chris H.
| makofoto | 10-13-2005 01:14 PM |
We only ran the '06 in AUTO mode ... didn't feel anything out of the ordinary ... certainly no jerkiness, bucking or bouncing. Everything seemed very smooth and linear when I drove it. Hoping to soon try out STI's in Auto and in Manual ...
Unfortunately the STI badge is molded into the grill ... someone should offer a replacement grill ...
Unfortunately the STI badge is molded into the grill ... someone should offer a replacement grill ...
| flyboymike | 10-13-2005 01:17 PM |
[QUOTE=z3coupe]Well, if YOU want so much AWD traction, then why not get one of [URL=http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm]THESE[/URL] :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: Then you could TRULY be the king of the road, and no one will argue with you :banana:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you've got to put a round on each cone or it's a two second penalty...
Yeah, but you've got to put a round on each cone or it's a two second penalty...
| Draken | 10-13-2005 01:18 PM |
I never felt any issues during numerous autocrosses in stock mode, with stock tires on my '04. It wasn't until we fit the huge Hoosiers and hit concrete that things got jerky.
Same with Kikko. He ran STU all year, minimal issues. Put on 275 V710, went to concrete, lost his rear diff, twice.
Chris H.
Same with Kikko. He ran STU all year, minimal issues. Put on 275 V710, went to concrete, lost his rear diff, twice.
Chris H.
| sciolist | 10-13-2005 01:45 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]I never felt any issues during numerous autocrosses in stock mode, with stock tires on my '04. It wasn't until we fit the huge Hoosiers and hit concrete that things got jerky.
Same with Kikko. He ran STU all year, minimal issues. Put on 275 V710, went to concrete, lost his rear diff, twice.
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "lost"?
Same with Kikko. He ran STU all year, minimal issues. Put on 275 V710, went to concrete, lost his rear diff, twice.
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "lost"?
| AndrewSS | 10-13-2005 02:54 PM |
wow... i didnt really know there were many reports of people blowing the rear diffs from lifting the rear inside combined with big r-comps... weird stuff, kinda scarey
| trhoppe | 10-13-2005 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]What do you mean by "lost"?[/QUOTE]
When you lose something, its no longer there ;)
-Tom
When you lose something, its no longer there ;)
-Tom
| KC | 10-13-2005 03:07 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]What do you mean by "lost"?[/QUOTE]
Kablooie. Go boom. Incinerate. Fail to function. I'm just curious if they fixed this issue in '06. Do you guys run on concrete in CA? Got any R-compounds to go and try to test the theory? :lol:
Kablooie. Go boom. Incinerate. Fail to function. I'm just curious if they fixed this issue in '06. Do you guys run on concrete in CA? Got any R-compounds to go and try to test the theory? :lol:
| ChrisF | 10-13-2005 03:08 PM |
I'd be curious to to find out how he "lost" his diff. I doubt it was from lifting a rear tire. Can't tell you how many times mine has lifted under power without incidient. Now 275 R compounds - that sounds like a culprit.
| KC | 10-13-2005 03:09 PM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]wow... i didnt really know there were many reports of people blowing the rear diffs from lifting the rear inside combined with big r-comps... weird stuff, kinda scarey[/QUOTE]
STU with streets (or any class with streets) aren't going to be anything to worry about. That rear wheel will slip enough upon touchdown.. so then you're not/wouldn't feeling anything/much.
--kC
STU with streets (or any class with streets) aren't going to be anything to worry about. That rear wheel will slip enough upon touchdown.. so then you're not/wouldn't feeling anything/much.
--kC
| KC | 10-13-2005 03:12 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisF]I'd be curious to to find out how he "lost" his diff. I doubt it was from lifting a rear tire. Can't tell you how many times mine has lifted under power without incidient. Now 275 R compounds - that sounds like a culprit.[/QUOTE]
He lost it by being in a turn with the rear wheel off the ground, hit the power, rear wheel touch down... r-comps GRIP instead of slide... crunch.
I couldn't remember the details undtil Draken said something.. and I remember it now.
He lost it by being in a turn with the rear wheel off the ground, hit the power, rear wheel touch down... r-comps GRIP instead of slide... crunch.
I couldn't remember the details undtil Draken said something.. and I remember it now.
| PKer | 10-13-2005 03:24 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Kablooie. Go boom. Incinerate. Fail to function. I'm just curious if they fixed this issue in '06. Do you guys run on concrete in CA? Got any R-compounds to go and try to test the theory? :lol:[/QUOTE]
We rarely get to run on concrete, when we do it's a treat. There are some STi that run r-comps, but I haven't seen them run on concrete yet.
The only concrete thats available on a regular basis is Atwater, but it's a six hour drive for us in southern California.
We rarely get to run on concrete, when we do it's a treat. There are some STi that run r-comps, but I haven't seen them run on concrete yet.
The only concrete thats available on a regular basis is Atwater, but it's a six hour drive for us in southern California.
| sciolist | 10-13-2005 04:36 PM |
So, 04/05 + 275 V710 + asphalt = groovy, but 04/05 + 275 V710 + concrete = boom?
| trhoppe | 10-13-2005 05:00 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]So, 04/05 + 275 V710 + asphalt = groovy, but 04/05 + 275 V710 + concrete = boom?[/QUOTE]
No, are you being serious? :confused:
When you autox your car with bigass tires that weren't designed for it, you can break stuff. Newsflash! It will happen on any 1950 to 2006 car. Just happened that Kiko drove hard and broke a couple of them. No big deal, no OMGOMGOMGOMGOGM!O@#!)(@&#(*!@^#*%!!!STISUCKS!!!@@!#ONE!, just normal wear and tear.
-Tom
No, are you being serious? :confused:
When you autox your car with bigass tires that weren't designed for it, you can break stuff. Newsflash! It will happen on any 1950 to 2006 car. Just happened that Kiko drove hard and broke a couple of them. No big deal, no OMGOMGOMGOMGOGM!O@#!)(@&#(*!@^#*%!!!STISUCKS!!!@@!#ONE!, just normal wear and tear.
-Tom
| sciolist | 10-13-2005 05:34 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]No, are you being serious? :confused:
When you autox your car with bigass tires that weren't designed for it, you can break stuff. Newsflash! It will happen on any 1950 to 2006 car. Just happened that Kiko drove hard and broke a couple of them. No big deal, no OMGOMGOMGOMGOGM!O@#!)(@&#(*!@^#*%!!!STISUCKS!!!@@!#ONE!, just normal wear and tear.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Yes Tom, I am serious.
I'm no stranger to the concept of accepting personal responsibility for my own attempts to improve. No need for a news flash from the ionosphere.
There's a smidge of latitude between "normal wear and tear" and 'if I run 275's my car's gonna explode', no?
Presumably just about everyone with an STi in SP or SM with any degree of seriousness is on 275's +, eh?
If 275's cost me a differntial every three seasons that's fine. I might reconsider if they're going to cost me a differential every three runs.
When you autox your car with bigass tires that weren't designed for it, you can break stuff. Newsflash! It will happen on any 1950 to 2006 car. Just happened that Kiko drove hard and broke a couple of them. No big deal, no OMGOMGOMGOMGOGM!O@#!)(@&#(*!@^#*%!!!STISUCKS!!!@@!#ONE!, just normal wear and tear.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Yes Tom, I am serious.
I'm no stranger to the concept of accepting personal responsibility for my own attempts to improve. No need for a news flash from the ionosphere.
There's a smidge of latitude between "normal wear and tear" and 'if I run 275's my car's gonna explode', no?
Presumably just about everyone with an STi in SP or SM with any degree of seriousness is on 275's +, eh?
If 275's cost me a differntial every three seasons that's fine. I might reconsider if they're going to cost me a differential every three runs.
| trhoppe | 10-13-2005 05:43 PM |
Yes, you will break stuff more often with 275s. How much more often? That really does depend on you or on your car and is individual. Kiko drives HARD and never worried about equipment (much like me and my 1800 transmissions that I went through). It won't be every 3 runs unless you do something really dumb though :)
-Tom
-Tom
| sciolist | 10-13-2005 05:57 PM |
Okay, thanks :)
Up to this point, I've been able to avoid most of the common maladies. No grinding, no blown struts, no swapping clutches twice a season. I don't even seem to be able to cord tires and wear out pads. :(
Sounds like this would probably be a good time to get serious about losing the rear bar, though.
Up to this point, I've been able to avoid most of the common maladies. No grinding, no blown struts, no swapping clutches twice a season. I don't even seem to be able to cord tires and wear out pads. :(
Sounds like this would probably be a good time to get serious about losing the rear bar, though.
| AUTOwrXER | 10-13-2005 06:06 PM |
The rear diff on our cars sucks. It's a much bigger issue than the center diff, and to my knowledge it is the same with the 06 as the 04/05. If the inside rear is in the air when you go to the gas, the diff is open (it is a torque sensing type). You will know it is doing this becuase the revs will increase and there is very little pull. It happens more when the center diff is sending more power to the rear (whether it is in auto mode or not). It was a major issue for me before I started setting up the car for it (i.e. add front roll stiffness and rear droop, and later a clutch-type rear diff). It was worse for Kiko because he was a left foot braker, which meant that he was on the gas more often with the inside rear in the air.
In a picture like the one above, the wheel is barely up and the driver is probably not on the gas (or if so only for a very brief moment before the wheel touches down). I wouldn't be surprised if nothing was noticed. That doesn't mean it's not an issue. Even if the wheel is on the ground, you can still get inside rear wheelspin if it is lightly loaded (the diff can only transfer as much force as the max inside rear torque times the torque bias).
In a picture like the one above, the wheel is barely up and the driver is probably not on the gas (or if so only for a very brief moment before the wheel touches down). I wouldn't be surprised if nothing was noticed. That doesn't mean it's not an issue. Even if the wheel is on the ground, you can still get inside rear wheelspin if it is lightly loaded (the diff can only transfer as much force as the max inside rear torque times the torque bias).
| AndrewSS | 10-13-2005 11:41 PM |
hrmm well this has been interesting... i know i know i know it seems to be mostly how hard the car is driven, but do you think it would be a significant less chance of problems if the tires were smaller, say 255 or 245's, considering the other variables are essentially unchanged, i guess the only way to answer this would be experience so maybe nobody has any.
-andrew
-andrew
| AUTOwrXER | 10-14-2005 10:31 AM |
With less grip the car will transfer less weight, and therefore have less inside rear wheel lift. The problem gets more pronounced with increased grip from R-compounds, concrete, etc...
| Draken | 10-14-2005 12:43 PM |
As KC said...by "lost the rear diff" I meant spamity kalamity. And as Joel said, smaller tires, or less grippy asphalt, the problem is less apparent. I had no events on concrete, and only one event on my 275 Hoosiers before 2004 nationals, so the lifting of the rear so dramatically, and the effects on the car were a total shock to me. Tuesday's runs on the south course sucked balls for me. I finally got use to it by Wednesday's runs, and actually, had made some setup changes to lessen it to some degree.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| AUTOwrXER | 10-14-2005 03:27 PM |
I used to run the center diff in full lock when it was really bad. It made the car push, but at least it would put some power down on exit. Glad I fixed the problem...
| makofoto | 10-14-2005 03:43 PM |
? ... not sure what you mean ... most use AUTO because it allows them to really be in the power on corner exit ?
What problem did you fix ?
What problem did you fix ?
| AUTOwrXER | 10-14-2005 04:21 PM |
Inside rear wheelspin is worse when sending more power to the rear, whether you do it manually or if the Auto mode is trying to send it there. I had to run the diff locked when wheelspin was very bad, as it was better that way compared to auto. Insider rear wheel lift is the problem I solved.
| WRXIN | 10-14-2005 04:35 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Many people screw up the handling of the STi with poor spring rate choices. If you drove one with a spring combination similar to an STX car, I'm not surprised that it didn't handle well.[/QUOTE]
I'm hearing more about spring combinations being different on the STi vs. the WRX. To date, most people have been applying the same suspension techniques to an STi as to a WRX.
AUTOwrXER: If you don't mind my asking, what do you see at the right spring rate combination for an STi? Heavier front rate or heavier rear rate or equal or...? And I'm asking from the point of view of an STU setup. No R tires...
____
As far as the 06 to 05 to 04 comparisons...
First, I don't see how the 06 could lean less.
Secondly, I'm sure that some like Solberg could drive an 06 on some autocross-type course and maybe knock a 10th or two of his time in an 04 or 05 on the same course, but we are mostly mere mortals and I'm having trouble understanding how the 06 could be THAT much better. Manufacturers always do these promo clips where they put an older car against the latest with a professional driver, and sure, they finish half a car length ahead in a small closed course, but I fail to see how that small change achieved by a professional driver translates into all this talk about how the 06 is just so much better than the older STis...
Guess I'll find out in a few weeks when I go up against Max and his new coilovers, etc. :D
I'm hearing more about spring combinations being different on the STi vs. the WRX. To date, most people have been applying the same suspension techniques to an STi as to a WRX.
AUTOwrXER: If you don't mind my asking, what do you see at the right spring rate combination for an STi? Heavier front rate or heavier rear rate or equal or...? And I'm asking from the point of view of an STU setup. No R tires...
____
As far as the 06 to 05 to 04 comparisons...
First, I don't see how the 06 could lean less.
Secondly, I'm sure that some like Solberg could drive an 06 on some autocross-type course and maybe knock a 10th or two of his time in an 04 or 05 on the same course, but we are mostly mere mortals and I'm having trouble understanding how the 06 could be THAT much better. Manufacturers always do these promo clips where they put an older car against the latest with a professional driver, and sure, they finish half a car length ahead in a small closed course, but I fail to see how that small change achieved by a professional driver translates into all this talk about how the 06 is just so much better than the older STis...
Guess I'll find out in a few weeks when I go up against Max and his new coilovers, etc. :D
| BlkWRXWag | 10-14-2005 04:39 PM |
I have no illusions that you'll kick my a$$, Mark:D
| trhoppe | 10-14-2005 08:46 PM |
The STi has always needed more front spring rate IMHO. When we were setting up for ESP, we swapped springs backwards from the the WRX. 12K/10K, 26mm front bar, stock rear bar.
-Tom
-Tom
| makofoto | 10-14-2005 10:31 PM |
I was reading a short "test" of the '06 in Road & Track (Car & Driver, EVO ?) ... and they said it leaned more ... so when I said it seemed to lean less during the SCNAX Cup ... I guess that's because we just weren't pushing it as hard as YOU (WRXIN) push your '04 ! :eek: ... of course ... you're much more familiar with your car ... we were all STI novices with the '06.
| makofoto | 10-14-2005 11:50 PM |
same corner as the earlier photos of the '06 STI ...
Stock '05 STI ... driven by Crystal in her first every AX.
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v225/photos/4/43793/2710569/Crystal1stTime-vi.jpg[/img]
Scott's 400 whp STI with 12k/8k springs ... oem sway bars
615's in this photo, usually runs 710's
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v229/photos/4/43793/2710569/RandyScottsSTI-vi.jpg[/img]
Roman's stock '05 STI
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/CrystalRoman-vi.jpg[/img]
Stock '05 STI ... driven by Crystal in her first every AX.
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v225/photos/4/43793/2710569/Crystal1stTime-vi.jpg[/img]
Scott's 400 whp STI with 12k/8k springs ... oem sway bars
615's in this photo, usually runs 710's
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v229/photos/4/43793/2710569/RandyScottsSTI-vi.jpg[/img]
Roman's stock '05 STI
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/CrystalRoman-vi.jpg[/img]
| Shavenyak | 10-14-2005 11:57 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]same corner as the earlier photos of the '06 STI ...
Roman's stock '05 STI
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/CrystalRoman-vi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Holy OMGINEEDSWAYBARS Batman! :lol:
That or I need to not load my suspension so much.
--Roman
Roman's stock '05 STI
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v221/photos/4/43793/2710569/CrystalRoman-vi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Holy OMGINEEDSWAYBARS Batman! :lol:
That or I need to not load my suspension so much.
--Roman
| makofoto | 10-15-2005 12:00 AM |
Yes, best thing is to just slow down ... saves fuel, rear difs, tires ... :lol:
... or go faster so that the tires don't grip because they are just sliding like on ice ... :confused: :p
... or go faster so that the tires don't grip because they are just sliding like on ice ... :confused: :p
| WRX_Mundi | 10-15-2005 12:48 AM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER][...]If the inside rear is in the air when you go to the gas, the diff is open (it is a torque sensing type). You will know it is doing this becuase the revs will increase and there is very little pull.[/QUOTE]Is [u]that[/u] what's been going on? Makes sense. I've been getting that every now and then -- exiting a tight corner, get on the gas, and feels like something's slipping as the revs go up, not great response, then with a [i]<clunk>[/i] everything starts going again. Meanwhile some lost time with little acceleration and me wondering what just happened. This is Victoracers on asphalt -- fortunately the Wendover concrete courses were high speed momentum without really tight corners.
Sounds like I need to get the big front swaybar to avoid crunching something, especially with more power and V710's next year.
Sounds like I need to get the big front swaybar to avoid crunching something, especially with more power and V710's next year.
| ImprezaTron | 10-15-2005 07:34 PM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]6% of torque bias does make a significant difference and there is no point arguing abou that. The real question is how much did the DCCD and diffs really change and how much more does the 06 really weigh and is that worth giving up the 6% more rear torque bias?
My best guess would be the 05 is still the best but if anyone has any real info about the weight gain or dccd and diff changes from 05 I would like to know about it.
Nate[/QUOTE]
I recall reading something about the '06 STI's "default" torque split being 41/59 in auto mode, but it is still capable of achieving 35/65 (computer controlled automatically in certain driving situations or obviously when in manual mode set to full rear). It would be nice to get some sort of official word on this though.
My best guess would be the 05 is still the best but if anyone has any real info about the weight gain or dccd and diff changes from 05 I would like to know about it.
Nate[/QUOTE]
I recall reading something about the '06 STI's "default" torque split being 41/59 in auto mode, but it is still capable of achieving 35/65 (computer controlled automatically in certain driving situations or obviously when in manual mode set to full rear). It would be nice to get some sort of official word on this though.
| silver arrow | 10-15-2005 09:02 PM |
For track days, FSB or front and rear? Sounds like FSB only for aX
| DrBiggly | 10-15-2005 11:51 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]For track days, FSB or front and rear? Sounds like FSB only for aX[/QUOTE]
If you can have only 1, then FSB. If both is possible, then more is better. For track I'd say a little larger bar up front than the rear. 22-24 in the rear, 24-29 up front. Pick your combo from there and you'll have quite a bit of improvement. :)
-Biggly
If you can have only 1, then FSB. If both is possible, then more is better. For track I'd say a little larger bar up front than the rear. 22-24 in the rear, 24-29 up front. Pick your combo from there and you'll have quite a bit of improvement. :)
-Biggly
| AUTOwrXER | 10-16-2005 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE=WRX_Mundi]Is [u]that[/u] what's been going on? Makes sense. I've been getting that every now and then -- exiting a tight corner, get on the gas, and feels like something's slipping as the revs go up, not great response, then with a [i]<clunk>[/i] everything starts going again. Meanwhile some lost time with little acceleration and me wondering what just happened. This is Victoracers on asphalt -- fortunately the Wendover concrete courses were high speed momentum without really tight corners.
Sounds like I need to get the big front swaybar to avoid crunching something, especially with more power and V710's next year.[/QUOTE]
Bingo
Sounds like I need to get the big front swaybar to avoid crunching something, especially with more power and V710's next year.[/QUOTE]
Bingo
| Nixlimited | 11-13-2005 08:59 PM |
Hey makofoto - I saw you and your teammates today at the SCCA (TART) autox. You guys are some fast drivers and I love your wagon! Now I have to learn to drive my car :lol:
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