| BlkWRXWag | 11-13-2005 09:29 PM |
Woohoo - the 06 wins on its first competetive outing:D
| Nixlimited | 11-13-2005 10:30 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]Woohoo - the 06 wins on its first competetive outing:D[/QUOTE]
Were you the driver that turned the 51.xx in STU? That's smoking fast... Best I managed was 54.00 on stock suspension and a reflash.
Were you the driver that turned the 51.xx in STU? That's smoking fast... Best I managed was 54.00 on stock suspension and a reflash.
| BlkWRXWag | 11-13-2005 10:33 PM |
Nope - I ran a 50.61 in STU:D The car has a catback, FSB and coilovers.
| makofoto | 11-13-2005 11:13 PM |
Max beat National Tour winners Mark Coleman, '04 STI and Chris Teague, BMW ... for his first STU win at a San Diego Championship AX. He won in convencing manner ... with both of his last runs being faster then Mark. Max was using Cusco coil overs, 24 mm Whiteline FSB and a axleback exhaust and oem tires. Mark was on fading 245 215's on oem 7.5" wheels, turbo back ... but only jdm Pinks. He had mounted his new 245 615's (on 8.5" Rota Slipstreams) but discovered that they rubbed too badly in back to run. The jdm pinks lowered his car too much. He's getting his fenders rolled ... and looking forward to getting some coilovers one of these days. Chris is going to try to fit 265's in order to beat the STI's and EVO's. I think Rocky ended up fifth after arriving just in time to register, tech and run.
Max took an EVO Class a couple of weeks ago ... but I'm sure he gives some of the credit for his first win to his new '06 differentials. ;)
Max took an EVO Class a couple of weeks ago ... but I'm sure he gives some of the credit for his first win to his new '06 differentials. ;)
| BlkWRXWag | 11-13-2005 11:18 PM |
Mako - I have a Cobb 25mm FSB and a catback.
I DO think EVO school helped and I think the deciding factor today was that I was getting less oversteer than the other STi's in the high speed transitions. In other words, I could keep my foot in it longer:)
I DO think EVO school helped and I think the deciding factor today was that I was getting less oversteer than the other STi's in the high speed transitions. In other words, I could keep my foot in it longer:)
| Shavenyak | 11-13-2005 11:37 PM |
Great job Max! It will be interesting to see how much is differentials and how much is just bald-headed english skill. I predict quite a few people will be taking Max's car for a spin in the near future.
--Roman
--Roman
| BlkWRXWag | 11-13-2005 11:42 PM |
[QUOTE=SCOOBY-RU]I predict quite a few people will be taking Max's car for a spin in the near future.
--Roman[/QUOTE]
Oh no - I'd rather they think it was just me and not the car:D Once Mark get's his car sorted, it will be interesting to see the difference.
--Roman[/QUOTE]
Oh no - I'd rather they think it was just me and not the car:D Once Mark get's his car sorted, it will be interesting to see the difference.
| Nixlimited | 11-14-2005 01:40 AM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]Nope - I ran a 50.61 in STU:D The car has a catback, FSB and coilovers.[/QUOTE]
I'd like you to ride along with me at the next event if you have some time. I was running the silver 05 STi in SM.
BTW, why did you change only the front sways? I thought most people went with stronger rears to help the STi rotate?
Also, what would you, or any of your fast buddies, recommend for a set of front camber plates? Are they all the same?
I'd like you to ride along with me at the next event if you have some time. I was running the silver 05 STi in SM.
BTW, why did you change only the front sways? I thought most people went with stronger rears to help the STi rotate?
Also, what would you, or any of your fast buddies, recommend for a set of front camber plates? Are they all the same?
| z3coupe | 11-14-2005 03:02 AM |
What they have not mentioned yet, is that we were ALL within 1 second or less of each other. Max had the 50.6, and me in 5th had a 51.6 - most of the others (except Mark I think also got a 50.X) were within tenths of each other. Mighty close and exciting racing I would say! And considering most everyone else were in the 54+ zone, we were ALL fast :)
My biggest mistake, and one I will now try to work on, is to TRUST 3rd GEAR! First run (my fastest and using manual full rear DCCD), I was banging against the rev limiter in 2 important spots where there really WAS enough course that it had to make a difference. Second run I used auto DCCD and was slower and quite disapointed. I could FEEL the car try to do its own thing on me in 2 spots, and not what I wanted it to. Third run I went back to full rear DCCD, and went into 3rd three times, but I should have gone into 3rd only at the second spot, and KEPT it there for the rest of the run. Instead I was heal and toeing away for a poor run.
Max was more neutral I was told, but quite frankly, I was extremely happy to have the oversteer when I wanted it. It just depends on driving style, and what you are used to - I am used to ice racing, and driving on black ice back home in Chicago. So going sideways is just normal for me :devil: As I have not raced for quite some time, so extremely rusty, getting this close to the top times was the best I have done in quite a long time! The KW V3's are working excellent for me - same setting both on the street (near perfect smoothness) and the course (excellent handling and control). And the Advan Neova AD07's have proven to be way better than my old GForce KD's in the same size.
For the record, it did not seem to matter what tire sizes were used (I was using the Advan AD07 in 245/40/17, others the OEM or Falkens in various other sizes), we were ALL banging the rev limiter in roughly the same spots. Only option that might make a diff would be go to to the shorter 234/40/17 and THEN stay in 3rd.
Nix, I am using the PDE camber plates, and have to say that in the 2 events and 1 practice I have used them so far, they are proving to be excellent! Because of the design, its a piece of cake to dial in camber in a snap. There are a bunch of holes drilled in the main plate. I had the alignment done with it set to the middle row at -2. At the track, I just jack up the car, and slide it to the last row of holes, and am at -3. Then reverse that to go home. No trying to figure it out, just line up the holes and you are done.
My biggest mistake, and one I will now try to work on, is to TRUST 3rd GEAR! First run (my fastest and using manual full rear DCCD), I was banging against the rev limiter in 2 important spots where there really WAS enough course that it had to make a difference. Second run I used auto DCCD and was slower and quite disapointed. I could FEEL the car try to do its own thing on me in 2 spots, and not what I wanted it to. Third run I went back to full rear DCCD, and went into 3rd three times, but I should have gone into 3rd only at the second spot, and KEPT it there for the rest of the run. Instead I was heal and toeing away for a poor run.
Max was more neutral I was told, but quite frankly, I was extremely happy to have the oversteer when I wanted it. It just depends on driving style, and what you are used to - I am used to ice racing, and driving on black ice back home in Chicago. So going sideways is just normal for me :devil: As I have not raced for quite some time, so extremely rusty, getting this close to the top times was the best I have done in quite a long time! The KW V3's are working excellent for me - same setting both on the street (near perfect smoothness) and the course (excellent handling and control). And the Advan Neova AD07's have proven to be way better than my old GForce KD's in the same size.
For the record, it did not seem to matter what tire sizes were used (I was using the Advan AD07 in 245/40/17, others the OEM or Falkens in various other sizes), we were ALL banging the rev limiter in roughly the same spots. Only option that might make a diff would be go to to the shorter 234/40/17 and THEN stay in 3rd.
Nix, I am using the PDE camber plates, and have to say that in the 2 events and 1 practice I have used them so far, they are proving to be excellent! Because of the design, its a piece of cake to dial in camber in a snap. There are a bunch of holes drilled in the main plate. I had the alignment done with it set to the middle row at -2. At the track, I just jack up the car, and slide it to the last row of holes, and am at -3. Then reverse that to go home. No trying to figure it out, just line up the holes and you are done.
| BlkWRXWag | 11-14-2005 10:43 AM |
[QUOTE=Nixlimited]I'd like you to ride along with me at the next event if you have some time. I was running the silver 05 STi in SM.
BTW, why did you change only the front sways? I thought most people went with stronger rears to help the STi rotate?
Also, what would you, or any of your fast buddies, recommend for a set of front camber plates? Are they all the same?[/QUOTE]
Come to the Cal Club practice on 11/25 ([url]www.solo2.com)[/url]. We should all be there and it would be easy for you to get ride alongs and instruction from the top drivers.
I only have an FSB because the RSB I bought did not fit on the 06! However, I'm beginning to think that I'm better off with the stocker!
The best camber plates combine camber and castor. I use redrilled Cusco plates to do that, others use PDE, Noltec, etc. Essentially they all do the same thing - some are easier to adjust, but they're all good.
-Max.
BTW, why did you change only the front sways? I thought most people went with stronger rears to help the STi rotate?
Also, what would you, or any of your fast buddies, recommend for a set of front camber plates? Are they all the same?[/QUOTE]
Come to the Cal Club practice on 11/25 ([url]www.solo2.com)[/url]. We should all be there and it would be easy for you to get ride alongs and instruction from the top drivers.
I only have an FSB because the RSB I bought did not fit on the 06! However, I'm beginning to think that I'm better off with the stocker!
The best camber plates combine camber and castor. I use redrilled Cusco plates to do that, others use PDE, Noltec, etc. Essentially they all do the same thing - some are easier to adjust, but they're all good.
-Max.
| Nixlimited | 11-14-2005 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]Come to the Cal Club practice on 11/25 ([url]www.solo2.com)[/url]. We should all be there and it would be easy for you to get ride alongs and instruction from the top drivers.
I only have an FSB because the RSB I bought did not fit on the 06! However, I'm beginning to think that I'm better off with the stocker!
The best camber plates combine camber and castor. I use redrilled Cusco plates to do that, others use PDE, Noltec, etc. Essentially they all do the same thing - some are easier to adjust, but they're all good.
-Max.[/QUOTE]
Z3coupe - thanks for the feedback.
Max - I would love to come, but I am out of town that weekend. Please let me know when the next event is because I have dedicated this year to becoming serious in autox (actually, that's a big part of why I bought the STi in the first place).
Do you all have any input on the best FSB and RSB to run on an 05 sti? I was thinking Cusco or whiteline fixed front and adjustable rear.
I only have an FSB because the RSB I bought did not fit on the 06! However, I'm beginning to think that I'm better off with the stocker!
The best camber plates combine camber and castor. I use redrilled Cusco plates to do that, others use PDE, Noltec, etc. Essentially they all do the same thing - some are easier to adjust, but they're all good.
-Max.[/QUOTE]
Z3coupe - thanks for the feedback.
Max - I would love to come, but I am out of town that weekend. Please let me know when the next event is because I have dedicated this year to becoming serious in autox (actually, that's a big part of why I bought the STi in the first place).
Do you all have any input on the best FSB and RSB to run on an 05 sti? I was thinking Cusco or whiteline fixed front and adjustable rear.
| BlkWRXWag | 11-14-2005 01:59 PM |
I think the best FSB/RSB is really dependant on what suspension you are running (or plan to run). I saw your other posts about getting a bigger turbo. If you want to be serious about AX, stick with the stocker and learn how to drive the car first. It's got plenty of power:D
All our events are listed at [url]www.solo2.com[/url]. We are at every event:)
Check out [url]www.teamblewracing.org[/url] - your local Subaru AX club!
All our events are listed at [url]www.solo2.com[/url]. We are at every event:)
Check out [url]www.teamblewracing.org[/url] - your local Subaru AX club!
| Nixlimited | 11-14-2005 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]I think the best FSB/RSB is really dependant on what suspension you are running (or plan to run). I saw your other posts about getting a bigger turbo. If you want to be serious about AX, stick with the stocker and learn how to drive the car first. It's got plenty of power:D
All our events are listed at [url]www.solo2.com[/url]. We are at every event:)
Check out [url]www.teamblewracing.org[/url] - your local Subaru AX club![/QUOTE]
Well, I believe I am going to start with JDM pinks, camber plates, and sways and learn to drive it to its limits. I know I could have picked up some extra time this weekend through better driving, but when I hit 54.00 I just felt like the supension was starting to severely limit me. Hell, I think a good alignment could have shaved another 1 sec.
As for the bigger turbo - I don't disagree with you at all (mine actually makes 313/362 on 95 octane), buuuutttttt, I am a car modding nut and since I spend 99.9% of my time on the streets I have to satiate the need. I am still going to run a smaller wheeled turbo so I don't think it should be a problem. The VF39 is just soo anemic at the top end and that's where I find myself most of the time when autoxing. Maybe I need to learn to spend more time in the meaty area of the smaller turbo, but that's at like 3500 rpms. In addition, my current mods already put me in SM so I might as well have some fun.
Bottom line, I am looking to be regionally competitive, not nationally. I don't have the time or money yet for the latter.
All our events are listed at [url]www.solo2.com[/url]. We are at every event:)
Check out [url]www.teamblewracing.org[/url] - your local Subaru AX club![/QUOTE]
Well, I believe I am going to start with JDM pinks, camber plates, and sways and learn to drive it to its limits. I know I could have picked up some extra time this weekend through better driving, but when I hit 54.00 I just felt like the supension was starting to severely limit me. Hell, I think a good alignment could have shaved another 1 sec.
As for the bigger turbo - I don't disagree with you at all (mine actually makes 313/362 on 95 octane), buuuutttttt, I am a car modding nut and since I spend 99.9% of my time on the streets I have to satiate the need. I am still going to run a smaller wheeled turbo so I don't think it should be a problem. The VF39 is just soo anemic at the top end and that's where I find myself most of the time when autoxing. Maybe I need to learn to spend more time in the meaty area of the smaller turbo, but that's at like 3500 rpms. In addition, my current mods already put me in SM so I might as well have some fun.
Bottom line, I am looking to be regionally competitive, not nationally. I don't have the time or money yet for the latter.
| jmott | 11-14-2005 02:24 PM |
As always I will reccomend staying with stock springs until you are ready to get some serious race springs. And no, JDM pinks aren't serious race springs.
[QUOTE=Nixlimited]Well, I believe I am going to start with JDM pinks, camber plates, and sways and learn to drive it to its limits. I know I could have picked up some extra time this weekend through better driving, but when I hit 54.00 I just felt like the supension was starting to severely limit me. Hell, I think a good alignment could have shaved another 1 sec.
As for the bigger turbo - I don't disagree with you at all (mine actually makes 313/362 on 95 octane), buuuutttttt, I am a car modding nut and since I spend 99.9% of my time on the streets I have to satiate the need. I am still going to run a smaller wheeled turbo so I don't think it should be a problem. The VF39 is just soo anemic at the top end and that's where I find myself most of the time when autoxing. Maybe I need to learn to spend more time in the meaty area of the smaller turbo, but that's at like 3500 rpms. In addition, my current mods already put me in SM so I might as well have some fun.
Bottom line, I am looking to be regionally competitive, not nationally. I don't have the time or money yet for the latter.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Nixlimited]Well, I believe I am going to start with JDM pinks, camber plates, and sways and learn to drive it to its limits. I know I could have picked up some extra time this weekend through better driving, but when I hit 54.00 I just felt like the supension was starting to severely limit me. Hell, I think a good alignment could have shaved another 1 sec.
As for the bigger turbo - I don't disagree with you at all (mine actually makes 313/362 on 95 octane), buuuutttttt, I am a car modding nut and since I spend 99.9% of my time on the streets I have to satiate the need. I am still going to run a smaller wheeled turbo so I don't think it should be a problem. The VF39 is just soo anemic at the top end and that's where I find myself most of the time when autoxing. Maybe I need to learn to spend more time in the meaty area of the smaller turbo, but that's at like 3500 rpms. In addition, my current mods already put me in SM so I might as well have some fun.
Bottom line, I am looking to be regionally competitive, not nationally. I don't have the time or money yet for the latter.[/QUOTE]
| ChrisF | 11-14-2005 02:25 PM |
Nix:
I have a set of the "Barco-ized" Cusco front plates for sale if you're interested. They're very nice and are redrilled for variable caster and increased camber. PM me if interested.
I have a set of the "Barco-ized" Cusco front plates for sale if you're interested. They're very nice and are redrilled for variable caster and increased camber. PM me if interested.
| Got Pink? | 11-14-2005 06:27 PM |
I drilled my own cusco round plates and definently recommend them. I got like 6 deg of caster with mine and you can always use camber bolts to gain more camber but the only other legal way to get caster is with the whiteline offset bushings.
Oh and the best front sway bar is the Strano Bar which is the biggest on the market and the best rear bar is stock or none at all as a big one contributest to lifting the inside rear tire which is not good.
Oh and the best front sway bar is the Strano Bar which is the biggest on the market and the best rear bar is stock or none at all as a big one contributest to lifting the inside rear tire which is not good.
| Nixlimited | 11-14-2005 07:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]I drilled my own cusco round plates and definently recommend them. I got like 6 deg of caster with mine and you can always use camber bolts to gain more camber but the only other legal way to get caster is with the whiteline offset bushings.
Oh and the best front sway bar is the Strano Bar which is the biggest on the market and the best rear bar is stock or none at all as a big one contributest to lifting the inside rear tire which is not good.[/QUOTE]
Man, I realize that the STi and AWD is much different than my M3, but going with a big bar in the front and leaving the back alone is so contrary to what I am used to with a car that pushes.
Oh and the best front sway bar is the Strano Bar which is the biggest on the market and the best rear bar is stock or none at all as a big one contributest to lifting the inside rear tire which is not good.[/QUOTE]
Man, I realize that the STi and AWD is much different than my M3, but going with a big bar in the front and leaving the back alone is so contrary to what I am used to with a car that pushes.
| makofoto | 11-14-2005 07:39 PM |
Welcome to Suby World. Our cars need everything they can to keep the front end flat for better stick/less understeer. Those "general" rules on what to do to effect handling only apply to cars/race cars that are already decent handlers.
| Nixlimited | 11-14-2005 07:44 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Welcome to Suby World. Our cars need everything they can to keep the front end flat for better stick/less understeer. Those "general" rules on what to do to effect handling only apply to cars/race cars that are already decent handlers.[/QUOTE]
So what size front? Most setups I have seen have fixed front and adjustable rear. I was looking at Cusco and Whiteline. Any recommendations?
BTW, what size R-Comps can I run on the 05 BBS wheels? (8" wide I believe)
So what size front? Most setups I have seen have fixed front and adjustable rear. I was looking at Cusco and Whiteline. Any recommendations?
BTW, what size R-Comps can I run on the 05 BBS wheels? (8" wide I believe)
| trhoppe | 11-14-2005 07:52 PM |
[QUOTE=Nixlimited]So what size front? Most setups I have seen have fixed front and adjustable rear. I was looking at Cusco and Whiteline. Any recommendations?
BTW, what size R-Comps can I run on the 05 BBS wheels? (8" wide I believe)[/QUOTE]
Thats beacuse 95% of people you talk to about setting up a subaru don't know jack and they are just either pulling info out of their ass, or repeating useless crap ;)
Whiteline makes a 29mm front solid, and Strano has the 32mm hollow. They will offer about the same roll stiffness, with the Strano being a little stiffer, but also weighing less. I would go with the Strano.
For the R-comps, with a 5mm spacer, 275s fit just fine on the stockers, or you can just buy some 48 offset 8" wheels and run with no spacer.
-Tom
BTW, what size R-Comps can I run on the 05 BBS wheels? (8" wide I believe)[/QUOTE]
Thats beacuse 95% of people you talk to about setting up a subaru don't know jack and they are just either pulling info out of their ass, or repeating useless crap ;)
Whiteline makes a 29mm front solid, and Strano has the 32mm hollow. They will offer about the same roll stiffness, with the Strano being a little stiffer, but also weighing less. I would go with the Strano.
For the R-comps, with a 5mm spacer, 275s fit just fine on the stockers, or you can just buy some 48 offset 8" wheels and run with no spacer.
-Tom
| SubyFi | 11-14-2005 09:25 PM |
With spacers, should there be any concern with the stock lug bolts shearing off during high performance driving?
| makofoto | 11-14-2005 09:54 PM |
I think Tom meant 27 mm Whiteline. The 32mm Hollow Stranos is the equivalent of a 29 mm bar.
If you are using STIFF springs ... then you can probably get away with softer sway bars. Some people prefer lighter springs and stiffer bars ... easier for daily driving.
Stickier tires require stiffer springs/bars.
With just 245 R tires I'm using 12K/10K springs but light 1 inch hollow bars.
H&R says you should have 7 turns of a lug nut onto the stud. Their spacers come with the appropriate length lug nuts. Front lug nuts aren't to difficult to remove oneself. The rears require more dismantling of the hub then most people are willing to do. Some people do use up to 5 mm spacers with the oem studs ... without getting 7 turns.
I've never heard of lug BOLTS being sheared off?
If you are using STIFF springs ... then you can probably get away with softer sway bars. Some people prefer lighter springs and stiffer bars ... easier for daily driving.
Stickier tires require stiffer springs/bars.
With just 245 R tires I'm using 12K/10K springs but light 1 inch hollow bars.
H&R says you should have 7 turns of a lug nut onto the stud. Their spacers come with the appropriate length lug nuts. Front lug nuts aren't to difficult to remove oneself. The rears require more dismantling of the hub then most people are willing to do. Some people do use up to 5 mm spacers with the oem studs ... without getting 7 turns.
I've never heard of lug BOLTS being sheared off?
| DrBiggly | 11-14-2005 10:11 PM |
Nixlimited,
The limit of what tires can deal with on a Subaru for springrate seems to be in the 10k/12k range from what I've seen. I dropped springrate and gained grip due as it didn't make the tires react against all but glass-smooth surfaces so badly. I'd recommend the Strano front bar and a bigger rear bar as well: Whiteline 24mm would work well. :)
-Biggly
The limit of what tires can deal with on a Subaru for springrate seems to be in the 10k/12k range from what I've seen. I dropped springrate and gained grip due as it didn't make the tires react against all but glass-smooth surfaces so badly. I'd recommend the Strano front bar and a bigger rear bar as well: Whiteline 24mm would work well. :)
-Biggly
| Ride Operator | 11-14-2005 10:24 PM |
Max, is this your first win evAR?! Nice one you saucy Brit! :D
-Tom
-Tom
| BlkWRXWag | 11-14-2005 10:34 PM |
[QUOTE=Ride Operator]Max, is this your first win evAR?! Nice one you saucy Brit! :D
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Thanks Tom - I won the Lone Pine Time Trials in the wagon, but that's not a SCCA event. Best ever result in STX was 3rd, so yes, this was my first "proper" win. The fact that Mssrs. Coleman and Teague were there made it that more special, even though their tires were perhaps past their best:)
:banana: :banana: :banana:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Thanks Tom - I won the Lone Pine Time Trials in the wagon, but that's not a SCCA event. Best ever result in STX was 3rd, so yes, this was my first "proper" win. The fact that Mssrs. Coleman and Teague were there made it that more special, even though their tires were perhaps past their best:)
:banana: :banana: :banana:
| Nixlimited | 11-14-2005 11:52 PM |
Tom - I am looking to kill my RE070s and then switch those wheels to R-comps. I am going to buy another more aesthetically pleasing set of wheels with regular street tires. I wonder if a 265 wouldn't be easier than 275 with 5mm spacers? Not that I am against spacers, but I wouldn't need the spacers for street tires and I don't want to switch studs back and fourth. Hmmm.... 275 sure is wide though, that is what my M3 wears in the back on 9.5" wide wheels.
Excellent feedback all. Does anyone know the springrate of the JDM pinks. I believe that's the direction I am going to go initially. Pinks, front sway, and camber plates. Then practice practice practice. Hopefully I can get some of these ace SoCal drivers to show me a thing or two.
Excellent feedback all. Does anyone know the springrate of the JDM pinks. I believe that's the direction I am going to go initially. Pinks, front sway, and camber plates. Then practice practice practice. Hopefully I can get some of these ace SoCal drivers to show me a thing or two.
| makofoto | 11-15-2005 12:18 AM |
Mark Coleman is going to have some Pinks 4 Sale pretty soon ... he's in Mission Viejo.
Photos by Pete ([url]http://tinyurl.com/aw672[/url])
Max winning:
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v231/photos/4/43793/836092/Max1stSTUWin-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v247/photos/4/43793/836092/MaxWin-vi.jpg[/img]
Photos by Pete ([url]http://tinyurl.com/aw672[/url])
Max winning:
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v231/photos/4/43793/836092/Max1stSTUWin-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images14.fotki.com/v247/photos/4/43793/836092/MaxWin-vi.jpg[/img]
| afpdl | 11-15-2005 12:40 AM |
[QUOTE=Nixlimited] I wonder if a 265 wouldn't be easier than 275 with 5mm spacers? Not that I am against spacers, but I wouldn't need the spacers for street tires and I don't want to switch studs back and fourth.
[/QUOTE]
You dont switch studs for when you do or dont have a spacer on. They still work fine when not using a spacer.
[/QUOTE]
You dont switch studs for when you do or dont have a spacer on. They still work fine when not using a spacer.
| makofoto | 11-15-2005 12:41 AM |
just use open lug nuts
| DrBiggly | 11-15-2005 12:41 AM |
Nix,
Pinks, front sway, and camber plates will completely transform the car. I believe the Pinks are 260#/230# roughly. I'm sure I'm off a bit, but that's about what they are. :)
-Biggly
Pinks, front sway, and camber plates will completely transform the car. I believe the Pinks are 260#/230# roughly. I'm sure I'm off a bit, but that's about what they are. :)
-Biggly
| BlkWRXWag | 11-15-2005 10:26 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto][img]http://images14.fotki.com/v247/photos/4/43793/836092/MaxWin-vi.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Who says the 06 is ugly - that thing is gorgeous :disco:
Who says the 06 is ugly - that thing is gorgeous :disco:
| Nixlimited | 11-15-2005 11:47 AM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Nix,
Pinks, front sway, and camber plates will completely transform the car. I believe the Pinks are 260#/230# roughly. I'm sure I'm off a bit, but that's about what they are. :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
How does that compare to the 10k/12k nomenclature that I have heard? Me = suspension noob.
Pinks, front sway, and camber plates will completely transform the car. I believe the Pinks are 260#/230# roughly. I'm sure I'm off a bit, but that's about what they are. :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
How does that compare to the 10k/12k nomenclature that I have heard? Me = suspension noob.
| BlkWRXWag | 11-15-2005 11:50 AM |
10k = 550lbs (very approx).
My car is 10k/8k.
My car is 10k/8k.
| Nixlimited | 11-15-2005 01:19 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]10k = 550lbs (very approx).
My car is 10k/8k.[/QUOTE]
so the JDM pinks are what in k?
My car is 10k/8k.[/QUOTE]
so the JDM pinks are what in k?
| BlkWRXWag | 11-15-2005 01:21 PM |
4k approx
| ratt_finkel | 11-15-2005 01:34 PM |
[QUOTE=Nixlimited]Tom - I am looking to kill my RE070s and then switch those wheels to R-comps. I am going to buy another more aesthetically pleasing set of wheels with regular street tires. I wonder if a 265 wouldn't be easier than 275 with 5mm spacers? Not that I am against spacers, but I wouldn't need the spacers for street tires and I don't want to switch studs back and fourth. Hmmm.... 275 sure is wide though, that is what my M3 wears in the back on 9.5" wide wheels.
Excellent feedback all. Does anyone know the springrate of the JDM pinks. I believe that's the direction I am going to go initially. Pinks, front sway, and camber plates. Then practice practice practice. Hopefully I can get some of these ace SoCal drivers to show me a thing or two.[/QUOTE]
You're aware that you can't run R-comps in STU right? With the above mods you would be in BSP. Also, there are no 265/xx/17 anything. The only 265's I can think of are 16". The 275's would be awesome for your car, again though would put you in BSP. If you just ran street tires you could stay in STU. If you decided to run the R-comps but no pinks or camber plates you can run in AS.
Excellent feedback all. Does anyone know the springrate of the JDM pinks. I believe that's the direction I am going to go initially. Pinks, front sway, and camber plates. Then practice practice practice. Hopefully I can get some of these ace SoCal drivers to show me a thing or two.[/QUOTE]
You're aware that you can't run R-comps in STU right? With the above mods you would be in BSP. Also, there are no 265/xx/17 anything. The only 265's I can think of are 16". The 275's would be awesome for your car, again though would put you in BSP. If you just ran street tires you could stay in STU. If you decided to run the R-comps but no pinks or camber plates you can run in AS.
| shemoves | 11-15-2005 01:37 PM |
just kinda reading through the thread and it seems that that there is a change of thought on making the STi handle better (or I was misinformed). I *thought* that bigger sway bars, with the rear being stiffer was the way to go for better handling...am I reading the thread right that it is actually the opposite (better handling = stiffer/larger bar up front)?
Right now I've got Progress sway bars, Prodrive springs, Perrin/Poltec endlinks, and stock tires. Also have the cusco v.2 and tanabe underbraces. I use the car for auto-x/track days, but also driving around. I am not looking to be competitive with auto-x (just go to have fun and learn to be a better driver), so I don't really care about "don't do that unless you wanna bump up a class." (I'm in EM anyway cause of the CF trunk and underbracing.) My goal is the best handling possible with my current setup, without spending more than a couple hundred bucks until I can get coilovers (prolly a year or more down the road).
Right now I've got Progress sway bars, Prodrive springs, Perrin/Poltec endlinks, and stock tires. Also have the cusco v.2 and tanabe underbraces. I use the car for auto-x/track days, but also driving around. I am not looking to be competitive with auto-x (just go to have fun and learn to be a better driver), so I don't really care about "don't do that unless you wanna bump up a class." (I'm in EM anyway cause of the CF trunk and underbracing.) My goal is the best handling possible with my current setup, without spending more than a couple hundred bucks until I can get coilovers (prolly a year or more down the road).
| Nixlimited | 11-15-2005 02:24 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]You're aware that you can't run R-comps in STU right? With the above mods you would be in BSP. Also, there are no 265/xx/17 anything. The only 265's I can think of are 16". The 275's would be awesome for your car, again though would put you in BSP. If you just ran street tires you could stay in STU. If you decided to run the R-comps but no pinks or camber plates you can run in AS.[/QUOTE]
You may have misread, I have always stated that I will be running in SM.
You may have misread, I have always stated that I will be running in SM.
| Nixlimited | 11-15-2005 02:26 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]4k approx[/QUOTE]
That must be why your car looks so poised in the autox pics :eek:
That must be why your car looks so poised in the autox pics :eek:
| ratt_finkel | 11-15-2005 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE=shemoves]just kinda reading through the thread and it seems that that there is a change of thought on making the STi handle better (or I was misinformed). I *thought* that bigger sway bars, with the rear being stiffer was the way to go for better handling...am I reading the thread right that it is actually the opposite (better handling = stiffer/larger bar up front)?
Right now I've got Progress sway bars, Prodrive springs, Perrin/Poltec endlinks, and stock tires. Also have the cusco v.2 and tanabe underbraces. I use the car for auto-x/track days, but also driving around. I am not looking to be competitive with auto-x (just go to have fun and learn to be a better driver), so I don't really care about "don't do that unless you wanna bump up a class." (I'm in EM anyway cause of the CF trunk and underbracing.) My goal is the best handling possible with my current setup, without spending more than a couple hundred bucks until I can get coilovers (prolly a year or more down the road).[/QUOTE]
You're missing one key element for supreme handling. Tires :)
Right now I've got Progress sway bars, Prodrive springs, Perrin/Poltec endlinks, and stock tires. Also have the cusco v.2 and tanabe underbraces. I use the car for auto-x/track days, but also driving around. I am not looking to be competitive with auto-x (just go to have fun and learn to be a better driver), so I don't really care about "don't do that unless you wanna bump up a class." (I'm in EM anyway cause of the CF trunk and underbracing.) My goal is the best handling possible with my current setup, without spending more than a couple hundred bucks until I can get coilovers (prolly a year or more down the road).[/QUOTE]
You're missing one key element for supreme handling. Tires :)
| z3coupe | 11-16-2005 01:22 AM |
[QUOTE]just kinda reading through the thread and it seems that that there is a change of thought on making the STi handle better (or I was misinformed). I *thought* that bigger sway bars, with the rear being stiffer was the way to go for better handling...am I reading the thread right that it is actually the opposite (better handling = stiffer/larger bar up front)?[/QUOTE]Yes, I too am puzzled by this, going back to near stock in the rear . . . . . :huh: :confused:
| BlkWRXWag | 11-16-2005 11:22 AM |
What bars are you running Rocky?
| funsti | 11-16-2005 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE=z3coupe][quote]just kinda reading through the thread and it seems that that there is a change of thought on making the STi handle better (or I was misinformed). I *thought* that bigger sway bars, with the rear being stiffer was the way to go for better handling...am I reading the thread right that it is actually the opposite (better handling = stiffer/larger bar up front)?
[/quote]Yes, I too am puzzled by this, going back to near stock in the rear . . . . . :huh: :confused:[/QUOTE]
[Generalization]When properly setup the STi is always going to push when cornering at the limit; but only momentarily. Once you step on the gas the rear wheels will break loose and the car will rotate nicely.[/Generalization]
The large front sway bar is needed in order to maintain as much negative camber in front as possible mid corner. The reason is that the camber curve of the macpherson strut suspension is pretty bad. Under hard compression the camber will go all the way back positive, even with -2.1 degrees static negative camber!
Here's a picture of me in my car at the Gainesville, FL Subaru Challenge last month (Strano 32mm FSB, Whiteline BSR37XZ 24mm adjustable RSB on full stiff):
[IMG]http://web.infoave.net/~dmccallister/sti/camber.jpg[/img]
That's not even full compression because I'm on street tires with 9k/8k springs. I bet the Strano FSB is even more useful on race tires; or if you have softer spring rates and street tires. You can tell from the picture I need a tad more static camber both in front and rear.
A balance has to be made between optimizing tire contact patch and the speed of the weight transfer to the outside tires. If the car hardly rolls at all the weight is going to go to the outside tires so fast that it is extremely difficult (or impossible) not to overload them and start unwanted pushing/sliding.
One of the reasons the Strano FSB is a good design is because it limits peak roll well but has a progressive engagement due to its [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10741499&postcount=242]endlink design[/url].
A stock STi tends to push pretty bad and it's due to a lack of front camber. A lot of people go out and get a stiffer rear bar to fix this problem and I can understand why they like it. If you get the rear wheels to break loose before the front there will be little or no perceived pushing. However, now your peak grip is likely LESS than it was with the stock bars. It sure is fun to drive but you won't be able to carry as much speed; especially in steady state cornering. The real root cause of the pushing is a lack of front end grip and more roll stiffness and negative camber in front is the only cure.
I drove my car on the stock bars and 9k/8k Whiteline G4 suspension for many events and it drove just great. After I added the Strano FSB the car turned in much better and I ran it this way for a long time. I added the Whiteline BSR37XZ 24mm adjustable RSB later and was amazed at how much more balanced the car was. Peak grip was still good but I could now get it to rotate with ease. I was running the RSB using the middle holes and it was working great. Of course I had to mess with it though and went to full stiff. At first I was sliding all over the place until I got used to it. I think a rear bar that's much stiffer than the one I have would be twitch city! Some people like that though :p.
-JWM
[/quote]Yes, I too am puzzled by this, going back to near stock in the rear . . . . . :huh: :confused:[/QUOTE]
[Generalization]When properly setup the STi is always going to push when cornering at the limit; but only momentarily. Once you step on the gas the rear wheels will break loose and the car will rotate nicely.[/Generalization]
The large front sway bar is needed in order to maintain as much negative camber in front as possible mid corner. The reason is that the camber curve of the macpherson strut suspension is pretty bad. Under hard compression the camber will go all the way back positive, even with -2.1 degrees static negative camber!
Here's a picture of me in my car at the Gainesville, FL Subaru Challenge last month (Strano 32mm FSB, Whiteline BSR37XZ 24mm adjustable RSB on full stiff):
[IMG]http://web.infoave.net/~dmccallister/sti/camber.jpg[/img]
That's not even full compression because I'm on street tires with 9k/8k springs. I bet the Strano FSB is even more useful on race tires; or if you have softer spring rates and street tires. You can tell from the picture I need a tad more static camber both in front and rear.
A balance has to be made between optimizing tire contact patch and the speed of the weight transfer to the outside tires. If the car hardly rolls at all the weight is going to go to the outside tires so fast that it is extremely difficult (or impossible) not to overload them and start unwanted pushing/sliding.
One of the reasons the Strano FSB is a good design is because it limits peak roll well but has a progressive engagement due to its [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10741499&postcount=242]endlink design[/url].
A stock STi tends to push pretty bad and it's due to a lack of front camber. A lot of people go out and get a stiffer rear bar to fix this problem and I can understand why they like it. If you get the rear wheels to break loose before the front there will be little or no perceived pushing. However, now your peak grip is likely LESS than it was with the stock bars. It sure is fun to drive but you won't be able to carry as much speed; especially in steady state cornering. The real root cause of the pushing is a lack of front end grip and more roll stiffness and negative camber in front is the only cure.
I drove my car on the stock bars and 9k/8k Whiteline G4 suspension for many events and it drove just great. After I added the Strano FSB the car turned in much better and I ran it this way for a long time. I added the Whiteline BSR37XZ 24mm adjustable RSB later and was amazed at how much more balanced the car was. Peak grip was still good but I could now get it to rotate with ease. I was running the RSB using the middle holes and it was working great. Of course I had to mess with it though and went to full stiff. At first I was sliding all over the place until I got used to it. I think a rear bar that's much stiffer than the one I have would be twitch city! Some people like that though :p.
-JWM
| AndrewSS | 11-16-2005 01:10 PM |
^ good explaination, thanks
| shemoves | 11-16-2005 01:24 PM |
huh, I have both the front and rear sways on the stiffest setting right now...I'm gonna put the rear bar on a softer setting and see what happens.
| BlkWRXWag | 11-16-2005 01:24 PM |
I only have a 25mm Cobb hollow front bar. However, looking at the picture above of my car, it would seem that the car is holding that camber pretty well through the corner. I have -3.0 static. I'm wondering if I need to go bigger, or whether the picture of my car above would suggest that my current bar is working just fine.
| BREWPUBEAVER | 11-16-2005 01:34 PM |
[img]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/brewpubeaver/Track%20photos/IMG_1619.jpg[/img]
[url]http://photobucket.com/albums/y294/brewpubeaver/Track%20photos/[/url]
well since i saw the other 06 photos on the trach thought i would post mine up...
[url]http://photobucket.com/albums/y294/brewpubeaver/Track%20photos/[/url]
well since i saw the other 06 photos on the trach thought i would post mine up...
| shemoves | 11-16-2005 01:50 PM |
Some good springs are in need brew...glad to see you auto-xing the new car :D
| z3coupe | 11-17-2005 02:50 AM |
I have on both the front and rear COBB hollow swaybars with Whiteline endlinks. I have the rear set to full firm. The rear camber is set to -1.5 (Group N tophats), and the front I set with the PDE plates to -3 at the track. I have the Advan Neova AD07 tires with 37psi front and 35psi rear. So it would be better to go with the Strano on the front? And then what for the rear - go full soft on the COBB bar, or go back to the stock bar?
Oh, and I am using the KW V3 coilovers, with what ever the stock springs are. I think someone posted that the fronts were like 450, and the rears were progressive and the mid point was around 245.
And I can see your point Funsti - actually going TOO stiff and loosing traction, all to get the front to "appear" to be sticking better.
Oh, and I am using the KW V3 coilovers, with what ever the stock springs are. I think someone posted that the fronts were like 450, and the rears were progressive and the mid point was around 245.
And I can see your point Funsti - actually going TOO stiff and loosing traction, all to get the front to "appear" to be sticking better.
| DrBiggly | 11-17-2005 09:47 AM |
JWM,
You're just slightly off on the rear bar and stock bar analogy.
[quote=nhluhr]The reason a large swaybar increases % of total weight transfer seen by the axle is as follows:
Total weight transfer does not change unless you reduce CG height, decrease lateral cornering force (either slow down, take a wider line, or decrease vehicle weight), or widen the track. Those are the only things that change the total lateral weight transfer. However, realize that the only thing resisting the total weight transfer is the roll stiffness of the front and rear suspensions. If one of them is noodle-soft and the other is very stiff, the car rolls X amount... if both are moderately stiff, the car rolls X amount. The one that is doing the majority of the roll resisting is going to putting the most pressure on its tires so that pair of tires will bear a larger portion of the total weight transfer.[/quote]
I didn't want to repeat that so I just quoted. So really, stock bars are the worst. Going bigger on a front bar will typically cause less balance issues than going up on a rear bar (single bar changes only.) This is why I always recommend a sizeable front bar and a good rear to match it. This gives improved (reduced) roll and keeps the balance of the car manageable. It's extremely hard to "recover" a car that's on the edge with only a large rear bar or not enough rear traction. Not to mention it's more finicky and requires lighter driving. Personally I don't like making the car even harder to drive, much less having the balance way off.
You are however spot on about the "shocking" of the front tires and large bar bit.
Z3coupe,
Ultimately these are all semantics and the setup that you are most confident and comfortable with will be the fastest for you, be it tail-happy or just neutral. (I left out pushy because it's just aggrivating and I wouldn't call on course aggrivation very confidence inspiring.) For you I'd recommend trying a bigger front bar and then a larger rear as well, but would not go down on rear bar size given your low rear springrate. :)
-Biggly
You're just slightly off on the rear bar and stock bar analogy.
[quote=nhluhr]The reason a large swaybar increases % of total weight transfer seen by the axle is as follows:
Total weight transfer does not change unless you reduce CG height, decrease lateral cornering force (either slow down, take a wider line, or decrease vehicle weight), or widen the track. Those are the only things that change the total lateral weight transfer. However, realize that the only thing resisting the total weight transfer is the roll stiffness of the front and rear suspensions. If one of them is noodle-soft and the other is very stiff, the car rolls X amount... if both are moderately stiff, the car rolls X amount. The one that is doing the majority of the roll resisting is going to putting the most pressure on its tires so that pair of tires will bear a larger portion of the total weight transfer.[/quote]
I didn't want to repeat that so I just quoted. So really, stock bars are the worst. Going bigger on a front bar will typically cause less balance issues than going up on a rear bar (single bar changes only.) This is why I always recommend a sizeable front bar and a good rear to match it. This gives improved (reduced) roll and keeps the balance of the car manageable. It's extremely hard to "recover" a car that's on the edge with only a large rear bar or not enough rear traction. Not to mention it's more finicky and requires lighter driving. Personally I don't like making the car even harder to drive, much less having the balance way off.
You are however spot on about the "shocking" of the front tires and large bar bit.
Z3coupe,
Ultimately these are all semantics and the setup that you are most confident and comfortable with will be the fastest for you, be it tail-happy or just neutral. (I left out pushy because it's just aggrivating and I wouldn't call on course aggrivation very confidence inspiring.) For you I'd recommend trying a bigger front bar and then a larger rear as well, but would not go down on rear bar size given your low rear springrate. :)
-Biggly
| makofoto | 11-17-2005 10:21 AM |
Those Cobb bars, manufactured by Hotchkis ... are only equivalent to 22, 23 mm at the most according to Hotchkis. I agree with the Dr. With your light springs, go BIG in the front ... and then balance the rear with by adding more rear neg. camber as needed ... using adjustable rear lateral links. Those will then also make it easy to add rear toe-out as needed.
Roman has light Pink springs ... but 27 Whiteline in the front and 24 (?) in the rear ... and it hasn't changed ride quality much ... helped appreciably with roll control. I would try the 32 mm Stranos bar (equivalent to 29 mm) in front. If you don't like it, you could sell it in about 30 minutes either on the Team Blew forum or Southern CA Nasioc forum ...
Roman has light Pink springs ... but 27 Whiteline in the front and 24 (?) in the rear ... and it hasn't changed ride quality much ... helped appreciably with roll control. I would try the 32 mm Stranos bar (equivalent to 29 mm) in front. If you don't like it, you could sell it in about 30 minutes either on the Team Blew forum or Southern CA Nasioc forum ...
| silver arrow | 11-17-2005 05:38 PM |
What do you think would be better with CG 325/300? Hotchkis/COBB smaller bars or Stranos/whiteline big bars?
| z3coupe | 11-18-2005 03:02 AM |
[QUOTE]Z3coupe,
Ultimately these are all semantics and the setup that you are most confident and comfortable with will be the fastest for you, be it tail-happy or just neutral. (I left out pushy because it's just aggrivating and I wouldn't call on course aggrivation very confidence inspiring.) For you I'd recommend trying a bigger front bar and then a larger rear as well, but would not go down on rear bar size given your low rear springrate.
-Biggly[/QUOTE]Well if, and I mean a [B]BIG IF[/B], someone would finally take some pics of ME in the same corner, I would be better able to see how my car is reacting in the turns in comparison to the other cars and their setups. Being one of the few trying out the KW's, I am really anxious to see how the car's attitude appears from the outside. That also might help in determining what I need to do. As I am beggining to learn the car more now (with the new goodies on it), and being right there in the hunt for trophy, I would hope that would give enough respect to have a photo taken once in awhile. Just PLEASE don't show the driver though :devil:
Ultimately these are all semantics and the setup that you are most confident and comfortable with will be the fastest for you, be it tail-happy or just neutral. (I left out pushy because it's just aggrivating and I wouldn't call on course aggrivation very confidence inspiring.) For you I'd recommend trying a bigger front bar and then a larger rear as well, but would not go down on rear bar size given your low rear springrate.
-Biggly[/QUOTE]Well if, and I mean a [B]BIG IF[/B], someone would finally take some pics of ME in the same corner, I would be better able to see how my car is reacting in the turns in comparison to the other cars and their setups. Being one of the few trying out the KW's, I am really anxious to see how the car's attitude appears from the outside. That also might help in determining what I need to do. As I am beggining to learn the car more now (with the new goodies on it), and being right there in the hunt for trophy, I would hope that would give enough respect to have a photo taken once in awhile. Just PLEASE don't show the driver though :devil:
| BlkWRXWag | 11-18-2005 10:41 AM |
Rocky - I would love to see comparison pics with your car as well. That being said, the only reason there are no pics of your car is that you were not there on the practice day when these photos were taken. We didn't take any pics on the championship day, mostly because Roman was not there that day with his camera and also because Mako was running in the same group as us. Patience grasshopper - it will happen:D
| makofoto | 11-19-2005 12:59 AM |
... but it is strange that local SD photographer Pete didn't get any shots of Rocky. However Pete himself said that he choose a bad corner for most of the shots that he took ... those slow hairpins.
Rocky ... I'll try to make sure to get shots of you at the next CSCC Champ event ... for old time sakes, even if you aren't going to stay in Team Blew. Just so that next year you'll know what your missing! :p Unfortunately I'll always have a soft spot for a fellow Suby racer. ;)
WHAT A MOMENT ... went back to Roman's Photo CD of the Oct. CSCC Champ event and found a photo of you that got overlooked ... plus an out-of-focus shot that was probably passed over on purpose ...
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v236/photos/4/43793/2820624/Rocky1-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v242/photos/4/43793/2820624/Rocky2-vi.jpg[/img]
And here are some other Suby's going through the same corner:
Barco on his 500 something lb springs (24 mm Sway Bars?):
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v234/photos/4/43793/2820624/Barco2-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v246/photos/4/43793/2820624/Barco6-vi.jpg[/img]
Roman on oem springs and sway bars:
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v242/photos/4/43793/2820624/Roman-vi.jpg[/img]
Rocky ... I'll try to make sure to get shots of you at the next CSCC Champ event ... for old time sakes, even if you aren't going to stay in Team Blew. Just so that next year you'll know what your missing! :p Unfortunately I'll always have a soft spot for a fellow Suby racer. ;)
WHAT A MOMENT ... went back to Roman's Photo CD of the Oct. CSCC Champ event and found a photo of you that got overlooked ... plus an out-of-focus shot that was probably passed over on purpose ...
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v236/photos/4/43793/2820624/Rocky1-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v242/photos/4/43793/2820624/Rocky2-vi.jpg[/img]
And here are some other Suby's going through the same corner:
Barco on his 500 something lb springs (24 mm Sway Bars?):
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v234/photos/4/43793/2820624/Barco2-vi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://images15.fotki.com/v246/photos/4/43793/2820624/Barco6-vi.jpg[/img]
Roman on oem springs and sway bars:
[img]http://images12.fotki.com/v242/photos/4/43793/2820624/Roman-vi.jpg[/img]
| Arnie | 11-19-2005 01:41 AM |
I think you guys need to start getting these types of shots on a tripod to get the most consistent comparo pics (angle wise).
| makofoto | 11-19-2005 01:48 AM |
Don't need a tripod ... just need to take the pictures with the premeditated intent of doing comparison photos.
| PossumK | 11-19-2005 02:25 AM |
Mako, what's with the blocked out faces? :lol:
:)
:)
| makofoto | 11-19-2005 02:28 AM |
Per Rocky: "Just PLEASE don't show the driver though"
| Arnie | 11-19-2005 02:30 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Don't need a tripod ... just need to take the pictures with the premeditated intent of doing comparison photos.[/QUOTE]
damn you professional photographers with steady hands! :devil:
damn you professional photographers with steady hands! :devil:
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