| rjrutzky | 05-02-2006 01:37 PM |
ball joint extenders--perfect for track users
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The ZeroSports Ball Joint Extender is ideal if you use your car as a daily driver but at the same time use it for track use on the weekends. The purpose of these ball joint extenders is to return the suspension geometry of the car to "stock" while allowing you to lower the car one inch (typically from the use of lowering springs). For those of you that run coilovers and adjustable cambers, this would be great to reduce the stress and the tension incurred on the control arms.
Here is a picture of the ZeroSports Ball Joint Extender:
Here is a picture of the ZeroSports Ball Joint Extender:
| pio!pio! | 05-02-2006 01:58 PM |
If you lower your car too much, you ruin your suspension geometry..what this does is shift the lower control arm down some so your geometry returns to normal...of course you would also need some kind of a bump steer kit as well...
| Bob the fabricator | 05-02-2006 02:11 PM |
It keeps the roll center higher. As you lower your suspension the lower ball joints are raised relative to the inner fulcrums. Your roll center is lowered as a result, reducing the effective wheel rate (requiring ever-stiffer spring rates as the car is lowered). Camber gain (or rather, reduced camber loss) can be improved as well by this method.
Bob
Bob
| javid | 05-02-2006 02:21 PM |
Well it will be not perfect for track users if it doesn't resolve the bump steer. We have prototypes coming out of the CNC shop this week that will do the same thing and include a fix for the bump steer.
Does anyone know what the offset (difference between this and the stock ball joint hieghts) of this piece is? The advertisements talk about 1 inch but it doesn't seem that tall.
Does anyone know what the offset (difference between this and the stock ball joint hieghts) of this piece is? The advertisements talk about 1 inch but it doesn't seem that tall.
| rjrutzky | 05-02-2006 02:46 PM |
Thanks, I see it now. Also the the necessity for a bump steer fix. Curious to see what you guys are doing Javid. Also wondering what the effect would be on camber if any.
| javid | 05-02-2006 02:56 PM |
Hoppe modeled up our design in a chassis simulator many months ago (mostly for bump steer measurements); were going to dig that up again. If memory serves the software's assigned the stock camber curve a value of 1.56 and the our modified geometry got a score of 'dancing banana' ... what ever that means. lol
We'll have pics and data soon.
We'll have pics and data soon.
| Tanj! | 05-02-2006 03:12 PM |
Everytime someone brings these up Tom says they are working on them and will have them SOON (TM). :p And Tom's solution has the necessary tie rods as well. As others have said I suspect this will be the next big thing to have for suspension.
| trhoppe | 05-02-2006 04:17 PM |
blah blah ;) We've been getting hosed by the machine shop, which should be working on them as we type right now. I promise pics by this weekend.
-Tom
-Tom
| AtomicRacer | 05-03-2006 09:19 AM |
I am interested in this also.
-Paul
-Paul
| pio!pio! | 05-03-2006 11:39 AM |
Does the rear suspension need anything similar to this as well?
| trhoppe | 05-03-2006 11:47 AM |
In a WRX, the rear end just prevents the trunk from scraping the ground. In an STi its a little more important, but the suspension geometry in the rear is better then the front.
Lastly, there are no balljoints, so doing this would require MUCH engineering and custom hubs.
-Tom
Lastly, there are no balljoints, so doing this would require MUCH engineering and custom hubs.
-Tom
| S.G.D | 05-03-2006 01:50 PM |
[QUOTE=pio!pio!]Does the rear suspension need anything similar to this as well?[/QUOTE]
i think DMS is making a rear subframe (see: omg expensive) that will allow a lower ride height while still keeping everything properly aligned.
i think DMS is making a rear subframe (see: omg expensive) that will allow a lower ride height while still keeping everything properly aligned.
| Bob the fabricator | 05-03-2006 02:18 PM |
I wonder how involved it would be to fabricate or machine a custom rear upright with an offset bearing stub? Geometry would remain closer to stock and suspension travel would not be compromised as well. Similar in concept to 'drop' spindles. Certainly should be easier to integrate than a revised rear subframe, and far less costly.
I have not, however, looked to see if brake and/or wheel fitment would be an issue with this method.
Bob
I have not, however, looked to see if brake and/or wheel fitment would be an issue with this method.
Bob
| javid | 05-03-2006 02:20 PM |
Couple more years of subies in endurance racing and we will have a nice bin of hub / suspension options to choose from. ;)
| Patrick L | 05-03-2006 02:34 PM |
I see no picture
| DrBiggly | 05-03-2006 02:41 PM |
*subscribe*
I definitely want to see the pics of the new balljoint extender. :)
-Biggly
I definitely want to see the pics of the new balljoint extender. :)
-Biggly
| dan240 | 05-03-2006 02:42 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]In a WRX, the rear end just prevents the trunk from scraping the ground. In an STi its a little more important, but the suspension geometry in the rear is better then the front.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Please explain? :confused:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Please explain? :confused:
| trhoppe | 05-03-2006 02:45 PM |
Explain what? :)
-Tom
-Tom
| GotWRX03 | 05-03-2006 03:10 PM |
Tom, I'll get a pair when their available :D
| dan240 | 05-03-2006 03:46 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Explain what? :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I missed something, why is it that only in an STi its important that the trunk not scrape the ground?
Somehow I see a plane flying over my head
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I missed something, why is it that only in an STi its important that the trunk not scrape the ground?
Somehow I see a plane flying over my head
| trhoppe | 05-03-2006 05:12 PM |
A WRX is essentially FWD. The back just needs to be there to hold the car up, ie does nothing unless you heavily modify the car.
An STi acts like a RWD on track out, so you actually have to worry about what the back end of the car is doing and making sure you have enough grip back there.
-Tom
An STi acts like a RWD on track out, so you actually have to worry about what the back end of the car is doing and making sure you have enough grip back there.
-Tom
| remowgn | 05-03-2006 08:00 PM |
does the bumpsteer fix involve something on the order of balljoint spacers for the tie rods too?
There's a groupbuy going on for them zerosports units now... think you'll be able to get in under $300 a pair, tom?
There's a groupbuy going on for them zerosports units now... think you'll be able to get in under $300 a pair, tom?
| STi-MAN | 05-03-2006 08:15 PM |
^ yes tom, said that his kit will have a cure for the bump steer issue by having something for the tie rods... either way the zerosports unit looks great and the price is pretty nice... im sure they use this on they're race car that has been kicking some butt so this is not "JDM stupid"
| trhoppe | 05-03-2006 08:27 PM |
Exactly. Our kit will have the bumpsteer issue resolved as it will come with balljoint and tierod adjusters. If someone chooses to buy the zerosport balljoint instead of our kit, we'll also later offer a tierod adjuster by itself. We won't have them in the initial run though as our adjuster will lower the balljoint more then the zerosport ones, so it will have to be a seperate production run.
-Tom
-Tom
| STi-MAN | 05-03-2006 08:46 PM |
^ ok so let me get this straight, your kit will come with adjusters... but these adjusters will not work with the zerosports ones, but you will produce adjusters that will?? Also does this mean that a lower drop will be achieved with your version?? getting very interested in your product Tom.
P.S. how much testing have you done with your ball joint extenders?
P.S. how much testing have you done with your ball joint extenders?
| trhoppe | 05-03-2006 09:53 PM |
Our adjusters will offer a lower drop then the zerosport ones. The tierod adjusters that will come WITH our balljoint adjusters will not be "adjustable" they will be made to cancel out the bumpsteer created with OUR balljoint adjuster. Therefore, we will have to manufacture a different height tierod adjuster that will be shorter then ours for use with the zerosport parts.
We haven't done *any* testing yet other then suspension modeling. Once the prototypes get here we will be doing road testing on our car, finite element analysis of the components, as well as real world breaking of the part compared to stock at the Georgia Tech labs.
With a part that is this important in your suspension we won't be rushing these to market or anything like that. We need to make sure that these are WAY over engineered :)
-Tom
We haven't done *any* testing yet other then suspension modeling. Once the prototypes get here we will be doing road testing on our car, finite element analysis of the components, as well as real world breaking of the part compared to stock at the Georgia Tech labs.
With a part that is this important in your suspension we won't be rushing these to market or anything like that. We need to make sure that these are WAY over engineered :)
-Tom
| remowgn | 05-03-2006 10:42 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Our adjusters will offer a lower drop then the zerosport ones. The tierod adjusters that will come WITH our balljoint adjusters will not be "adjustable" they will be made to cancel out the bumpsteer created with OUR balljoint adjuster. Therefore, we will have to manufacture a different height tierod adjuster that will be shorter then ours for use with the zerosport parts.
We haven't done *any* testing yet other then suspension modeling. Once the prototypes get here we will be doing road testing on our car, finite element analysis of the components, as well as real world breaking of the part compared to stock at the Georgia Tech labs.
With a part that is this important in your suspension we won't be rushing these to market or anything like that. We need to make sure that these are WAY over engineered :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Well, you can put my name down on the list as a buyer once you get them all sorted. I've been looking at these things for ages, I actually designed a set for my A2 GTI... it has way worse camber problems than the WRX. :)
We haven't done *any* testing yet other then suspension modeling. Once the prototypes get here we will be doing road testing on our car, finite element analysis of the components, as well as real world breaking of the part compared to stock at the Georgia Tech labs.
With a part that is this important in your suspension we won't be rushing these to market or anything like that. We need to make sure that these are WAY over engineered :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Well, you can put my name down on the list as a buyer once you get them all sorted. I've been looking at these things for ages, I actually designed a set for my A2 GTI... it has way worse camber problems than the WRX. :)
| AtomicRacer | 05-03-2006 11:28 PM |
Will this be STU legal?
| javid | 05-03-2006 11:43 PM |
nope, SM and up.
| wm07 | 05-04-2006 12:17 AM |
Here is something that will work for the rear. Sorry for the blurry pic, I just took it using a digital camera from a Japanese magazine.
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1168/dsc003061cn.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1168/dsc003061cn.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
| S.G.D | 05-04-2006 09:00 AM |
holy crap thats cool!
| Mykl | 05-04-2006 08:13 PM |
[QUOTE=S.G.D]holy crap thats expensive![/QUOTE]
Fixed!!! :p :lol:
Fixed!!! :p :lol:
| GotWRX03 | 05-05-2006 10:15 AM |
:eek:
:lol: :p
[QUOTE=Mykl]I'm Fixed!!! :p :lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol: :p
[QUOTE=Mykl]I'm Fixed!!! :p :lol:[/QUOTE]
| javid | 05-08-2006 07:32 PM |
Prototype ball joint adapters are done. Off teh car fit is dead on, same tollerance as stock. The tie rod prototypes should be rolling of the lathe tomorrow night. I sent Hoppe some pics of the ball joints adapters prior to the last cut which was made today.
| GotWRX03 | 05-08-2006 07:58 PM |
sweet!! nice work guys! cost projected so far?
[QUOTE=javid]Prototype ball joint adapters are done. Off teh car fit is dead on, same tollerance as stock. The tie rod prototypes should be rolling of the lathe tomorrow night. I sent Hoppe some pics of the ball joints adapters prior to the last cut which was made today.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=javid]Prototype ball joint adapters are done. Off teh car fit is dead on, same tollerance as stock. The tie rod prototypes should be rolling of the lathe tomorrow night. I sent Hoppe some pics of the ball joints adapters prior to the last cut which was made today.[/QUOTE]
| javid | 05-08-2006 10:34 PM |
[QUOTE=GotWRX03]sweet!! nice work guys! cost projected so far?[/QUOTE]
retail cost for a set :) or the cost we have spent making 3 prototypes :huh: :eek: :furious: ?
retail cost for a set :) or the cost we have spent making 3 prototypes :huh: :eek: :furious: ?
| trhoppe | 05-08-2006 11:29 PM |
Here are two pictures of the prototype. Like Javid said, we are missing one cut on these. We will be testing soon and are very excited.
[img]http://www.6gunracing.com/misc_pics/prototype1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.6gunracing.com/misc_pics/prototype2.jpg[/img]
-Tom
[img]http://www.6gunracing.com/misc_pics/prototype1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.6gunracing.com/misc_pics/prototype2.jpg[/img]
-Tom
| remowgn | 05-09-2006 02:20 AM |
Nice. Thats a good lookin part.
| pio!pio! | 05-09-2006 02:37 AM |
once the kit is finished i predict you will be selling a lot of these to track day enthusiasts (and good lord there are a lot of them) you could make these for every model of car that you always see at the track w/ a control arm front susp.
I would imagine a race team would just cut and weld on an extra piece to the control arm though?
I would imagine a race team would just cut and weld on an extra piece to the control arm though?
| Poweredbysnail | 05-09-2006 09:36 AM |
I will buy a pair i have everything in the world done to my suspension hopefully this will top it off
| Aaron B | 05-09-2006 09:38 AM |
Seeing how popular the Steeda X2 ball joints are with the Mustang guys, you may want to have a solid inventory built up when you start taking orders.
| GotWRX03 | 05-09-2006 11:17 AM |
very nice, Tom!
as always, you guys are doing and have done a great job. can't wait to hear and see the final product. I [I][B]need [/B] [/I] a set. :)
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Here are two pictures of the prototype. Like Javid said, we are missing one cut on these. We will be testing soon and are very excited.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
as always, you guys are doing and have done a great job. can't wait to hear and see the final product. I [I][B]need [/B] [/I] a set. :)
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Here are two pictures of the prototype. Like Javid said, we are missing one cut on these. We will be testing soon and are very excited.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
| Poweredbysnail | 05-09-2006 11:25 AM |
Are these going to help with the under steer that the Wrx's have?
| LastResort | 05-09-2006 11:27 AM |
I'm very interested to see what this does for the both the professional and amature competitive racers.
| GotWRX03 | 05-09-2006 11:33 AM |
well, not really. this will correct the geometry, roll center, blah blah of the car after lowering it to a certain height.
[QUOTE=treefrogaz]Are these going to help with the under steer that the Wrx's have?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=treefrogaz]Are these going to help with the under steer that the Wrx's have?[/QUOTE]
| trhoppe | 05-09-2006 01:47 PM |
In a nutshell though, it will help understeer, as it will minimize the camber loss through body roll :)
-Tom
-Tom
| Patrick Olsen | 05-09-2006 04:37 PM |
Any more details on what the bumpsteer fix will be to go along with these spacers? I'm definitely interested in picking up a set of these when the design is finalized.
Actually, now that I think about it, I have a set of aluminum control arms ready to go in, and they use a different style balljoint, so I won't be able to use these. Bah!! :mad:
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Actually, now that I think about it, I have a set of aluminum control arms ready to go in, and they use a different style balljoint, so I won't be able to use these. Bah!! :mad:
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| trhoppe | 05-09-2006 06:12 PM |
Different style balljoint? I thought every Subaru since like 1990 or something used the same balljoint. Or is it just every Impreza?
The bumpsteer kit is being made right now, pix coming shortly.
-Tom
The bumpsteer kit is being made right now, pix coming shortly.
-Tom
| Patrick Olsen | 05-09-2006 08:54 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Different style balljoint? I thought every Subaru since like 1990 or something used the same balljoint. Or is it just every Impreza?[/QUOTE]
Nevermind, you're right. I just went and looked at the control arms sitting in my garage and realized I was visualizing things all upside-down and backwards. :)
Pat
Nevermind, you're right. I just went and looked at the control arms sitting in my garage and realized I was visualizing things all upside-down and backwards. :)
Pat
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-09-2006 09:40 PM |
Tom what kind of length on the extenders are we talking?
What I'm getting at is if a guy is dropped 30mm, should he be shooting for a 30mm extender- obviously if the extender was 20mm it would still be better than your current geometry (w/ a 30mm drop), what if it's longer?
Mike
What I'm getting at is if a guy is dropped 30mm, should he be shooting for a 30mm extender- obviously if the extender was 20mm it would still be better than your current geometry (w/ a 30mm drop), what if it's longer?
Mike
| trhoppe | 05-09-2006 09:40 PM |
These guys are 25mm.
-Tom
-Tom
| scobaru | 05-09-2006 09:53 PM |
woo I'll buy some whenever I have cash!
| [email�protected] | 05-09-2006 10:02 PM |
We designed our own for our WCTC and ran them, would not believe the difference they made, with our custom tierod ends. Those pieces look really nice, very close to the ones we designed. we had a problem with the stock set up hitting rotor to balljoint under extreme load, and bottoming the wheel in to chassis.
These are a great idea, hats of to marketing them. Very good product when front end is set up right.
Scott, IMR
These are a great idea, hats of to marketing them. Very good product when front end is set up right.
Scott, IMR
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-09-2006 10:21 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]These guys are 25mm.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Perfect :devil:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Perfect :devil:
| javid | 05-10-2006 12:16 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]These guys are 25mm.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Actually, your thinking of our original design, aka the same distance you can typically move an inside suspension point in GT / production car racing. Since outside suspension is typically open...
These are actually about 32mm. :banana:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Actually, your thinking of our original design, aka the same distance you can typically move an inside suspension point in GT / production car racing. Since outside suspension is typically open...
These are actually about 32mm. :banana:
| trhoppe | 05-10-2006 12:27 AM |
:lol: Thats why you are the engineer.
-Tom
-Tom
| nhluhr | 05-10-2006 03:39 AM |
Is the male half concentric with the female half (A) or is there a small lateral offset to prevent narrowing of the track (vs stock) along the control arm's arc (B)?
[img]http://wrx.dicknogs.net/suspension/ball_offset.jpg[/img]
[img]http://wrx.dicknogs.net/suspension/ball_offset.jpg[/img]
| BIGSKYWRX | 05-10-2006 09:12 AM |
Back to my original question then- if you increase the extension beyond your actual drop what is happening?
Also as you drop the out arm what effect does this have (if any) on camber/caster)?
Also as you drop the out arm what effect does this have (if any) on camber/caster)?
| javid | 05-10-2006 11:07 AM |
The prototypes are concentric. I anticipate the track being reduced just as much as a ~1.25"drop would increase track. Some will stick with the stock track and some will lower their cars even more and increase the track.
| javid | 05-10-2006 11:16 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Back to my original question then- if you increase the extension beyond your actual drop what is happening?
Also as you drop the out arm what effect does this have (if any) on camber/caster)?[/QUOTE]
All good questions. I haven't thought much about the geometry if the drop is less than the adapter spacing. I wouldn't think stock ride height folks would buy these... it'd be like buying double adjustable konis before upgrading the RE92s.
If all goes well, these will be on the 6gun TT car by this week end and we'll measure static alignment changes and clearance right away.
Also as you drop the out arm what effect does this have (if any) on camber/caster)?[/QUOTE]
All good questions. I haven't thought much about the geometry if the drop is less than the adapter spacing. I wouldn't think stock ride height folks would buy these... it'd be like buying double adjustable konis before upgrading the RE92s.
If all goes well, these will be on the 6gun TT car by this week end and we'll measure static alignment changes and clearance right away.
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