| bjorn240 | 02-07-2006 11:01 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Your response is only accurate as far as you take it, but your failure to take it within the context of the full rule set makes your conclusion regarding my comments flawed. The implication above is that there is one and only one homologated cage design and that design is the only one available. When in fact there is no single mandated design that can not be varied from.[/QUOTE]
Not at all. I totally agree that there are or can be multiple homologated cages for a single car. I was just making the point that for a given homologated cage, like the one shown, you can't make modifications to that specific cage, and still be in compliance with the FIA ruleset.
FWIW, I also agree with your premise that it's possible to design a cage better than some of the homologated cages I've seen.
Somewhat off the subject, as to that specific cage, in that specific shell, I was happy with how it performed when needed.
- Christian
Not at all. I totally agree that there are or can be multiple homologated cages for a single car. I was just making the point that for a given homologated cage, like the one shown, you can't make modifications to that specific cage, and still be in compliance with the FIA ruleset.
FWIW, I also agree with your premise that it's possible to design a cage better than some of the homologated cages I've seen.
Somewhat off the subject, as to that specific cage, in that specific shell, I was happy with how it performed when needed.
- Christian
| Safe Drives | 02-07-2006 11:02 PM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep]Ok I think it is really lame to quote one's self. But on this occasion I really want to know what this vendor has for a response. :furious:[/QUOTE]
Dang... Some of us work for a living. Honestly, I just re-visited this thread about 2 hours ago for the first time today.
For those of you that are wondering what this guy is talking about, he is talking about this:
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
This is a photo of (parts) the 8 point roll bar kit that is made by S&W Race Cars in PA and sold by Safe Drives LLC in the NASIOC [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813362"]vendor forum here[/url]. This roll bar kit is created to the letter of the NHRA rule book for vehicles traveling faster than 11.49 et. S&W has been in the race car bussiness for over 30 years. I just saw this photo for first time today in another thread.
For those not familiar with roll bar or cage construction the problems with this install are as follows.
1) The main hoop and the harness bar are mounted quite low.
I have had a chat with S&W about the height of the Subaru main hoops, that should be fixed in a week or so. Any owner of a S&W main hoop will be getting a free replacement if they want one. In any event a boxed mounting pad would solve this problem. The mounting height of the harness bar is up to the installer though... I think I would add that the pictured roll bar is structuraly safer than a stock wagon as long as there is quality welding and proper padding added in the head impact areas. It is low though... Lower than most scrutineering inspections would probably allow.
2) The welding in this particular installation has some very questionable attributes according to one of the posted pictures in the thread the MFR Sweap linked. Lets take a look at this picture.
[img]http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/6789/cageanddeck6bm.jpg[/img]
These are not the best welds. The picture quality is not the best on any of the images in that thread but from this image you can definately tell the welds are not too good at all. We at Safe Drives LLC have no control over this aspect of any roll bar or cage installation.
In summary on this subject I would like to point out that this type of roll bar is a great alternative to a plain harness bar. We do not offer a plain harness bar without a roll bar on safedrives.com.
Jon Bogert in that other thread said this:
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]Wow, you guys are tough. I think you need to look at this in context. As the poster said, it's a street car. The purpose is to mount his harnesses, stiffen the chassis a bit, and look good. Don't compare it to a rally cage. Compare it to a harness bar. It looks like a pretty decent harness bar to me.
How many people run DEs without any bar or cage at all? Most cars at a DE, hitting upwards of 130mph on a track, have no rollover protection. How is this bar [i]worse[/i] than none at all? OK, maybe the welds and reinforcement aren't great. Is it going to do any harm?
Obviously, no tech inspector would ever pass it for a competitive event, but hopefully that's not the point. As I said, it looks to be a fine harness bar. :)[/QUOTE]
I think that Mr. Bogert hit the nail on the head with this post. I do think this would pass tech at any Solo 2 event.. It would probably pass at the drag strip asuming he installed the door bars makeing it a six point roll bar and put some quality padding in the head protection areas.
When people call me and ask me my thoughts on just a harness bar I steer them towards something like this or the Autopower 4 point roll bars.
Install is always on the customer side unless we install the product here at Safe Drives in Oregon.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
Dang... Some of us work for a living. Honestly, I just re-visited this thread about 2 hours ago for the first time today.
For those of you that are wondering what this guy is talking about, he is talking about this:
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
This is a photo of (parts) the 8 point roll bar kit that is made by S&W Race Cars in PA and sold by Safe Drives LLC in the NASIOC [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813362"]vendor forum here[/url]. This roll bar kit is created to the letter of the NHRA rule book for vehicles traveling faster than 11.49 et. S&W has been in the race car bussiness for over 30 years. I just saw this photo for first time today in another thread.
For those not familiar with roll bar or cage construction the problems with this install are as follows.
1) The main hoop and the harness bar are mounted quite low.
I have had a chat with S&W about the height of the Subaru main hoops, that should be fixed in a week or so. Any owner of a S&W main hoop will be getting a free replacement if they want one. In any event a boxed mounting pad would solve this problem. The mounting height of the harness bar is up to the installer though... I think I would add that the pictured roll bar is structuraly safer than a stock wagon as long as there is quality welding and proper padding added in the head impact areas. It is low though... Lower than most scrutineering inspections would probably allow.
2) The welding in this particular installation has some very questionable attributes according to one of the posted pictures in the thread the MFR Sweap linked. Lets take a look at this picture.
[img]http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/6789/cageanddeck6bm.jpg[/img]
These are not the best welds. The picture quality is not the best on any of the images in that thread but from this image you can definately tell the welds are not too good at all. We at Safe Drives LLC have no control over this aspect of any roll bar or cage installation.
In summary on this subject I would like to point out that this type of roll bar is a great alternative to a plain harness bar. We do not offer a plain harness bar without a roll bar on safedrives.com.
Jon Bogert in that other thread said this:
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]Wow, you guys are tough. I think you need to look at this in context. As the poster said, it's a street car. The purpose is to mount his harnesses, stiffen the chassis a bit, and look good. Don't compare it to a rally cage. Compare it to a harness bar. It looks like a pretty decent harness bar to me.
How many people run DEs without any bar or cage at all? Most cars at a DE, hitting upwards of 130mph on a track, have no rollover protection. How is this bar [i]worse[/i] than none at all? OK, maybe the welds and reinforcement aren't great. Is it going to do any harm?
Obviously, no tech inspector would ever pass it for a competitive event, but hopefully that's not the point. As I said, it looks to be a fine harness bar. :)[/QUOTE]
I think that Mr. Bogert hit the nail on the head with this post. I do think this would pass tech at any Solo 2 event.. It would probably pass at the drag strip asuming he installed the door bars makeing it a six point roll bar and put some quality padding in the head protection areas.
When people call me and ask me my thoughts on just a harness bar I steer them towards something like this or the Autopower 4 point roll bars.
Install is always on the customer side unless we install the product here at Safe Drives in Oregon.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
| turboICE | 02-07-2006 11:20 PM |
[QUOTE=javid]I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying the cheap stuff is not much different than hitting the bar its self?
I've cracked my head open on a metal pipe before, I never done so on a padded surface, even if it's padded with the cheaper pads sold at race shops that[/QUOTE]In an accident where you are making contact at multiple G's yes the result is not much different than hitting the bar itself. I am still trying to find it but the impactive force was diminished by like less than 5% I know that in the grand scheme of things its presence was completely insignificant in an accident scenario under testing.
[quote]Not at all. I totally agree that there are or can be multiple homologated cages for a single car. I was just making the point that for a given homologated cage, like the one shown, you can't make modifications to that specific cage, and still be in compliance with the FIA ruleset.
FWIW, I also agree with your premise that it's possible to design a cage better than some of the homologated cages I've seen.
Somewhat off the subject, as to that specific cage, in that specific shell, I was happy with how it performed when needed.
- Christian[/quote]I knew you understood what I was getting at but the initial response would have sounded different without the full context to a reader - I think we pretty much agree on the technical aspects though. Absolutely can not modify that cage in that car.
And to reiterate - I never said it was a bad cage design or unsafe in anyway, this started by me saying that the design went with different trade-offs than I would have made.
At the same time as I reread the first response - the "good enough" part was to answer the one question about what is good enough. The remainder should have been considered seperately from the the first responding sentence. And isn't worth more than the 2c opionion it was anymore so than anyone elses comments when they throw 2c out.
There is no better news than a cage and shell performing when it is needed whether in chassis response or keeping the occupants safe while impressing the fans and keeping the sponsors grinning.
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
Charles on the S&W roll bar correct me if I am wrong but that totally looks like it came out of the jig for the 1998-2001 2.5RS coupe, in which application it would come up pretty close to the sun roof pocket. The hoop could have been installed on a box built against the rear seat bottom deck and worked fine or the jigs need to be redone for non sunroofed current model imprezas. I don't think that was really the initial designers intended fit in 2002+ cars.
Ed.
I've cracked my head open on a metal pipe before, I never done so on a padded surface, even if it's padded with the cheaper pads sold at race shops that[/QUOTE]In an accident where you are making contact at multiple G's yes the result is not much different than hitting the bar itself. I am still trying to find it but the impactive force was diminished by like less than 5% I know that in the grand scheme of things its presence was completely insignificant in an accident scenario under testing.
[quote]Not at all. I totally agree that there are or can be multiple homologated cages for a single car. I was just making the point that for a given homologated cage, like the one shown, you can't make modifications to that specific cage, and still be in compliance with the FIA ruleset.
FWIW, I also agree with your premise that it's possible to design a cage better than some of the homologated cages I've seen.
Somewhat off the subject, as to that specific cage, in that specific shell, I was happy with how it performed when needed.
- Christian[/quote]I knew you understood what I was getting at but the initial response would have sounded different without the full context to a reader - I think we pretty much agree on the technical aspects though. Absolutely can not modify that cage in that car.
And to reiterate - I never said it was a bad cage design or unsafe in anyway, this started by me saying that the design went with different trade-offs than I would have made.
At the same time as I reread the first response - the "good enough" part was to answer the one question about what is good enough. The remainder should have been considered seperately from the the first responding sentence. And isn't worth more than the 2c opionion it was anymore so than anyone elses comments when they throw 2c out.
There is no better news than a cage and shell performing when it is needed whether in chassis response or keeping the occupants safe while impressing the fans and keeping the sponsors grinning.
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
Charles on the S&W roll bar correct me if I am wrong but that totally looks like it came out of the jig for the 1998-2001 2.5RS coupe, in which application it would come up pretty close to the sun roof pocket. The hoop could have been installed on a box built against the rear seat bottom deck and worked fine or the jigs need to be redone for non sunroofed current model imprezas. I don't think that was really the initial designers intended fit in 2002+ cars.
Ed.
| Safe Drives | 02-08-2006 12:35 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]
Charles on the S&W roll bar correct me if I am wrong but that totally looks like it came out of the jig for the 1998-2001 2.5RS coupe, in which application it would come up pretty close to the sun roof pocket. The hoop could have been installed on a box built against the rear seat bottom deck and worked fine or the jigs need to be redone for non sunroofed current model imprezas. I don't think that was really the initial designers intended fit in 2002+ cars.
Ed.[/QUOTE]
Hi Ed,
It [i]is[/i] a model specific kit, 1st gen Impreza vs 2nd gen Impreza. Last year we sent a guy over to S&W that had a 2002 WRX so that we could offer a kit to the 2002+ Impreza contingent. That pictured roll bar is what we now have available from S&W for the 2002+ Imprezas.
You are correct though, the main hoop could have been installed on a box built against the rear seat bottom deck and worked much, much better.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
Charles on the S&W roll bar correct me if I am wrong but that totally looks like it came out of the jig for the 1998-2001 2.5RS coupe, in which application it would come up pretty close to the sun roof pocket. The hoop could have been installed on a box built against the rear seat bottom deck and worked fine or the jigs need to be redone for non sunroofed current model imprezas. I don't think that was really the initial designers intended fit in 2002+ cars.
Ed.[/QUOTE]
Hi Ed,
It [i]is[/i] a model specific kit, 1st gen Impreza vs 2nd gen Impreza. Last year we sent a guy over to S&W that had a 2002 WRX so that we could offer a kit to the 2002+ Impreza contingent. That pictured roll bar is what we now have available from S&W for the 2002+ Imprezas.
You are correct though, the main hoop could have been installed on a box built against the rear seat bottom deck and worked much, much better.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
| turboICE | 02-08-2006 07:47 AM |
Thanks for the response and clarification.
| Brabus | 02-08-2006 08:43 AM |
I think whoever made these roll cages should be in the car when it rolls.....
| Calamity Jesus | 02-08-2006 08:54 AM |
[QUOTE=javid]I realize that a cage in a street car is unsafe compared to stock in the case that you could hit your head on a bar. I pointed out that padding is going to reduce this risk. The Cusco may be thin, but I feel confident that it will improve the structural integrity of the car. To all that disagree, please explain why (not with quotes from racing regulators but with physics and the mechanics of materials).[/QUOTE]I have never built a cage or experienced a wreck in a cage or even inspected a cage after an accident, nor do I have any specific talent, skill or training in metallurgy. (aka, this is your chance to move on to the next post, ignoring mine)
My concern would be that while the cage may provide some minimal amount of added structural integrity.. it does not appear to be designed to transmit energy away from the occupants. If the car is involved in serious fender bender, the cage may provide some additional bracing that will help.. but not that anyone will care, since the car is already designed (quite well) to protect the occupants during a minor collision.
In a more serious accident, the soft, thin-walled tubing could be pushed dangerously close to the occupants of the car. Assuming the best case scenario, the cage will fold in along with the A pillar and only decrease the passenger's headroom by an additional 40mm. In a likely worse case scenario, the action of a roof collapse or side impact will cause the tubing above the occupants' heads to bend inward in unpredictable ways, even more-so than the car's roof, and possibly impaling someone.
The car's structure is filled with little ripples and dimples that are designed to control the way in which the cell collapses around the occupants. A good NASCAR cage is meant not to collapse at all. A good rally cage is designed to collapse controllably under extreme pressure (citing the Solberg accident @ Rallye Deutschland 2005). Those are all tailor engineered for safety at the intended level of risk and usability.
Next time you're out to eat, ask the server for an extra straw. A straw is a weak, unsupported tube, like most of the bars in the Cusco bolt in cage. Unwrap the straw and try to determine what direction it will go in when you compress it end to end with your hands. Most likely, it will bend to the point of pinching itself off into a point under the pressure, and the direction will be random.
My concern would be that while the cage may provide some minimal amount of added structural integrity.. it does not appear to be designed to transmit energy away from the occupants. If the car is involved in serious fender bender, the cage may provide some additional bracing that will help.. but not that anyone will care, since the car is already designed (quite well) to protect the occupants during a minor collision.
In a more serious accident, the soft, thin-walled tubing could be pushed dangerously close to the occupants of the car. Assuming the best case scenario, the cage will fold in along with the A pillar and only decrease the passenger's headroom by an additional 40mm. In a likely worse case scenario, the action of a roof collapse or side impact will cause the tubing above the occupants' heads to bend inward in unpredictable ways, even more-so than the car's roof, and possibly impaling someone.
The car's structure is filled with little ripples and dimples that are designed to control the way in which the cell collapses around the occupants. A good NASCAR cage is meant not to collapse at all. A good rally cage is designed to collapse controllably under extreme pressure (citing the Solberg accident @ Rallye Deutschland 2005). Those are all tailor engineered for safety at the intended level of risk and usability.
Next time you're out to eat, ask the server for an extra straw. A straw is a weak, unsupported tube, like most of the bars in the Cusco bolt in cage. Unwrap the straw and try to determine what direction it will go in when you compress it end to end with your hands. Most likely, it will bend to the point of pinching itself off into a point under the pressure, and the direction will be random.
| enduroshark | 02-08-2006 09:20 AM |
[QUOTE=javid]A bolt in is certainly 'safer' than stock. Likewise, argueing about safety on the internet is 'safer' than driving a car on track. Most anyone that is serious about road race or rally will have a very strong cage welded in because they are dedicating the car to the sport.
Of course, the more padding on a caged car the better...
It will make your cage feel softer than say the B and C pillars that even pretentious motor sport gurus can hit their heads on.
The "cheep padding" (like in Hoppe's car before he finished) is actually much nicer to bang your head on compared to the "good padding" that most will end up using around the driver's area. The reason for buying the good stuff is because it will last much longer and with a helmet on the two feel about the same. The cheap padding is not 'unsafe'; just has to be replace more often cause it falls apart after being climbed on.[/QUOTE]
A poorly designed roll cage might not be safer than no cage at all. If the cage design will make it fold down and trap the people inside the car, or worse, then it created a bigger problem than if there was no bar at all.
The cheap foam padding is a waste of money. It will not make a difference when you bang your head against it, compared to not having it. You'd do better duct-taping toilet paper rolls on the bars.
Of course, the more padding on a caged car the better...
It will make your cage feel softer than say the B and C pillars that even pretentious motor sport gurus can hit their heads on.
The "cheep padding" (like in Hoppe's car before he finished) is actually much nicer to bang your head on compared to the "good padding" that most will end up using around the driver's area. The reason for buying the good stuff is because it will last much longer and with a helmet on the two feel about the same. The cheap padding is not 'unsafe'; just has to be replace more often cause it falls apart after being climbed on.[/QUOTE]
A poorly designed roll cage might not be safer than no cage at all. If the cage design will make it fold down and trap the people inside the car, or worse, then it created a bigger problem than if there was no bar at all.
The cheap foam padding is a waste of money. It will not make a difference when you bang your head against it, compared to not having it. You'd do better duct-taping toilet paper rolls on the bars.
| MFR Sweep | 02-08-2006 10:03 AM |
[QUOTE=Safe Drives]Dang... Some of us work for a living. Honestly, I just re-visited this thread about 2 hours ago for the first time today.
For those of you that are wondering what this guy is talking about, he is talking about this:
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
This is a photo of (parts) the 8 point roll bar kit that is made by S&W Race Cars in PA and sold by Safe Drives LLC in the NASIOC [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813362"]vendor forum here[/url]. This roll bar kit is created to the letter of the NHRA rule book for vehicles traveling faster than 11.49 et. S&W has been in the race car bussiness for over 30 years. I just saw this photo for first time today in another thread.
For those not familiar with roll bar or cage construction the problems with this install are as follows.
1) The main hoop and the harness bar are mounted quite low.
I have had a chat with S&W about the height of the Subaru main hoops, that should be fixed in a week or so. Any owner of a S&W main hoop will be getting a free replacement if they want one. In any event a boxed mounting pad would solve this problem. The mounting height of the harness bar is up to the installer though... I think I would add that the pictured roll bar is structuraly safer than a stock wagon as long as there is quality welding and proper padding added in the head impact areas. It is low though... Lower than most scrutineering inspections would probably allow.
2) The welding in this particular installation has some very questionable attributes according to one of the posted pictures in the thread the MFR Sweap linked. Lets take a look at this picture.
[img]http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/6789/cageanddeck6bm.jpg[/img]
These are not the best welds. The picture quality is not the best on any of the images in that thread but from this image you can definately tell the welds are not too good at all. We at Safe Drives LLC have no control over this aspect of any roll bar or cage installation.
In summary on this subject I would like to point out that this type of roll bar is a great alternative to a plain harness bar. We do not offer a plain harness bar without a roll bar on safedrives.com.
Jon Bogert in that other thread said this:
I think that Mr. Bogert hit the nail on the head with this post. I do think this would pass tech at any Solo 2 event.. It would probably pass at the drag strip asuming he installed the door bars makeing it a six point roll bar and put some quality padding in the head protection areas.
When people call me and ask me my thoughts on just a harness bar I steer them towards something like this or the Autopower 4 point roll bars.
Install is always on the customer side unless we install the product here at Safe Drives in Oregon.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com[/QUOTE]
I thank you for contacting the manufacturer and fixing the issue with the main hoop height. I hate to say that I was questioning your business practices involved in selling that cage but I was. You have restored my confidence in your company!
Oh and By the way I never would have blamed you guys if that kids "booger welds" failed. because that welding is shoddy work at best.
For those of you that are wondering what this guy is talking about, he is talking about this:
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
This is a photo of (parts) the 8 point roll bar kit that is made by S&W Race Cars in PA and sold by Safe Drives LLC in the NASIOC [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813362"]vendor forum here[/url]. This roll bar kit is created to the letter of the NHRA rule book for vehicles traveling faster than 11.49 et. S&W has been in the race car bussiness for over 30 years. I just saw this photo for first time today in another thread.
For those not familiar with roll bar or cage construction the problems with this install are as follows.
1) The main hoop and the harness bar are mounted quite low.
I have had a chat with S&W about the height of the Subaru main hoops, that should be fixed in a week or so. Any owner of a S&W main hoop will be getting a free replacement if they want one. In any event a boxed mounting pad would solve this problem. The mounting height of the harness bar is up to the installer though... I think I would add that the pictured roll bar is structuraly safer than a stock wagon as long as there is quality welding and proper padding added in the head impact areas. It is low though... Lower than most scrutineering inspections would probably allow.
2) The welding in this particular installation has some very questionable attributes according to one of the posted pictures in the thread the MFR Sweap linked. Lets take a look at this picture.
[img]http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/6789/cageanddeck6bm.jpg[/img]
These are not the best welds. The picture quality is not the best on any of the images in that thread but from this image you can definately tell the welds are not too good at all. We at Safe Drives LLC have no control over this aspect of any roll bar or cage installation.
In summary on this subject I would like to point out that this type of roll bar is a great alternative to a plain harness bar. We do not offer a plain harness bar without a roll bar on safedrives.com.
Jon Bogert in that other thread said this:
I think that Mr. Bogert hit the nail on the head with this post. I do think this would pass tech at any Solo 2 event.. It would probably pass at the drag strip asuming he installed the door bars makeing it a six point roll bar and put some quality padding in the head protection areas.
When people call me and ask me my thoughts on just a harness bar I steer them towards something like this or the Autopower 4 point roll bars.
Install is always on the customer side unless we install the product here at Safe Drives in Oregon.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com[/QUOTE]
I thank you for contacting the manufacturer and fixing the issue with the main hoop height. I hate to say that I was questioning your business practices involved in selling that cage but I was. You have restored my confidence in your company!
Oh and By the way I never would have blamed you guys if that kids "booger welds" failed. because that welding is shoddy work at best.
| driggity | 02-08-2006 12:40 PM |
Another thing to note about this picture. According to Subaru's specs (and I'd agree with this based on sitting in both a wagon and sedan) the wagon has over an inch more headroom in the front seat than the sedan. There is a difference in the rear seat, but its not as much. Also, did the car measured by S&W have a sunroof in it? That cuts into the headroom by about 2 inches.
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/7798/cagerear4ug.jpg[/img]
| Safe Drives | 02-08-2006 01:07 PM |
[QUOTE=driggity]Another thing to note about this picture. According to Subaru's specs (and I'd agree with this based on sitting in both a wagon and sedan) the wagon has over an inch more headroom in the front seat than the sedan. There is a difference in the rear seat, but its not as much. Also, did the car measured by S&W have a sunroof in it? That cuts into the headroom by about 2 inches.
[/QUOTE]
Good notes!
The original 2002 sedan measured at S&W Race Cars had no sunroof.
I got word back from S&W this morning, they are not going to redesign the main hoops. The engineer said that the hoops are designed with the full interior intact and they won't change it. In the end, boxed foot plates will raise the main hoop and is a pretty standard way to build cages.
In the not too distant future Safe Drives LLC will be offering our own line of roll bar and cage kits. Keep an eye out for an announcement. :)
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
[/QUOTE]
Good notes!
The original 2002 sedan measured at S&W Race Cars had no sunroof.
I got word back from S&W this morning, they are not going to redesign the main hoops. The engineer said that the hoops are designed with the full interior intact and they won't change it. In the end, boxed foot plates will raise the main hoop and is a pretty standard way to build cages.
In the not too distant future Safe Drives LLC will be offering our own line of roll bar and cage kits. Keep an eye out for an announcement. :)
Best regards,
Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
[url="http://www.safedrives.com/"]www.safedrives.com[/url]
877-739-1713 toll free
cburen aaat safedrives.com
| greg donovan | 02-08-2006 03:27 PM |
why wont they redisign?
| cdvma | 02-09-2006 01:38 PM |
[QUOTE=greg donovan]why wont they redisign?[/QUOTE]
Because it fits if you have a competent cage installer...
Because it fits if you have a competent cage installer...
| silver04rs | 02-09-2006 04:34 PM |
Some kid tried telling me at a meet that his Cusco 6pt like this one was just as good and more fuctional than my cage because it was built by Cusco and they build JGTC cars for subaru........ I just smiled and told him he was probably right
Heres what im workin with
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/DSC01094.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/DSC01091.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/C16photoshoot047.jpg[/IMG]
Travis- the gravel crew
[url]www.gcrallyx.com[/url]
Heres what im workin with
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/DSC01094.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/DSC01091.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/C16photoshoot047.jpg[/IMG]
Travis- the gravel crew
[url]www.gcrallyx.com[/url]
| AlexP | 02-09-2006 08:20 PM |
[QUOTE][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/silver04rs/C16photoshoot047.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Thats a nice looking cage, however I question that small member joining your a-pillar/roof node to the a-pillar floor node. I've seen that member (I assume it's an FIA homologated member) on a bunch of cars prepared by good prep shops, but the usefulness of it really confuses me. Some people have told me that it's there to support the upper corner of the cage in the event of a spot-on impact, but the cars I've seen it in, the member is so long and unsupported as to render it very susceptible to buckling failure.
Indeed, I can pull on the member (*snicker*) and deflect it a good eigth of an inch with only 30 lbsf or so. Thats another one of my FIA homologated cages peeves.....
Unless of course somebody has a better explanation of why its there?
Thats a nice looking cage, however I question that small member joining your a-pillar/roof node to the a-pillar floor node. I've seen that member (I assume it's an FIA homologated member) on a bunch of cars prepared by good prep shops, but the usefulness of it really confuses me. Some people have told me that it's there to support the upper corner of the cage in the event of a spot-on impact, but the cars I've seen it in, the member is so long and unsupported as to render it very susceptible to buckling failure.
Indeed, I can pull on the member (*snicker*) and deflect it a good eigth of an inch with only 30 lbsf or so. Thats another one of my FIA homologated cages peeves.....
Unless of course somebody has a better explanation of why its there?
| blue blurr | 02-09-2006 09:44 PM |
It's there because of Petter Solbergs crash last year in WRC, haha. Thats right where he hit, the the roof caved in above the co driver.
| silver04rs | 02-09-2006 10:26 PM |
We put it in cause the WRC car has it
It xan only make the car stronger. Im not sure if you noticed but the car does haev a full A-Pillar tube tucked up and plated
It xan only make the car stronger. Im not sure if you noticed but the car does haev a full A-Pillar tube tucked up and plated
| blue blurr | 02-09-2006 11:42 PM |
I just got my roll bar padding that I will be putting on my roll bar and that stuff is hard, It almost feels like plastic. I'm sure it is good stuff though, ment for high impact.
| AudiTTkiller | 02-09-2006 11:58 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]Didn't realize we had so many "experts" on this forum.[/QUOTE]
lol holy crap member 16
lol holy crap member 16
| javid | 02-10-2006 12:31 AM |
Few people know that the gravel crew car is actually a jungle gym swaped into a WRX. :lol: Sorry I just had to. That is a nice cage. :D
| BLK REX | 02-10-2006 08:40 PM |
I have a question. Is there ANY functional cage, bolt in or weld in, in KIT FORM (no notching/welding/cutting required, besides to mount to the car), that still allows the back seat to be used?
| turboICE | 02-10-2006 09:02 PM |
Used in what manner? The very nature of a bare minimum 4 point roll bar (or any cage built off of it) will necessitate down tubes from the main hoop to the rear strut towers. There is not roll bar or cage or even just a harness bar that makes the rear seat "usable". It can be installed with a bar or cage - but any living thing you put in that rear seat would be subjecting you to risk of causing them harm through gross negligence.
| BLK REX | 02-10-2006 09:48 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Used in what manner? The very nature of a bare minimum 4 point roll bar (or any cage built off of it) will necessitate down tubes from the main hoop to the rear strut towers. There is not roll bar or cage or even just a harness bar that makes the rear seat "usable". It can be installed with a bar or cage - but any living thing you put in that rear seat would be subjecting you to risk of causing them harm through gross negligence.[/QUOTE]
Used as in a person back there. Even 1 single person int eh middle wont work?
Used as in a person back there. Even 1 single person int eh middle wont work?
| turboICE | 02-10-2006 09:55 PM |
Not without putting them at severe risk of injury besides the main hoop going across the top of the vehicle - a "functional" main hoop has some sort of cross support either traditional road course method in the hoop itself or frequent FIA method of cross supports to the rear which would negate the seat entirely.
What "need" is there for a cage that would not justify an alternative passenger car?
What "need" is there for a cage that would not justify an alternative passenger car?
| AlexP | 02-11-2006 04:31 PM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]We put it in cause the WRC car has it
It xan only make the car stronger. [/QUOTE]
No offense, but that's a pretty poor way to design a roll cage (ie, copy another design for which you have no clue as to it's merit). I'll agree that it can only make the car stronger, but what I will add is that it can also make the car more unsafe.
I'll tell you right now that a long, unsupported member like that, while "making the car stronger", will only do so by a negligible amount. It is so long, and has such a small area moment of inertia, that it is rendered almost useless. Indeed, as I mentioned before (and I'm sure you can verify) you can apply very small loads (ie, less than a humans weight under 1g) and see significant deflection. A tube that long and with such small diameter is extremebly prone to buckling and bending load failure. If you put a similar load on any of the other tubes, you will probably find that there will be zero measurable deflection.
I say that it could be dangerous, because in very RARE loading conditions, it could buckle in the direction of the driver/codriver. Maybe not so bad for the co-driver, but imagine as a driver, smacking a tree on your side, resulting in that tube buckling and pinning your or arm against the steering wheel. Or in a REALLY bad case, having it buckle and smack you in the arm or leg or whatever.
I know that these are very unlikely scenarios, but my point is more that that bar (being as long and thin as it is) can do very little structurally, unless loaded in tension (which is a very unlikely scenario for it's positioning), so why bother to add it?
It xan only make the car stronger. [/QUOTE]
No offense, but that's a pretty poor way to design a roll cage (ie, copy another design for which you have no clue as to it's merit). I'll agree that it can only make the car stronger, but what I will add is that it can also make the car more unsafe.
I'll tell you right now that a long, unsupported member like that, while "making the car stronger", will only do so by a negligible amount. It is so long, and has such a small area moment of inertia, that it is rendered almost useless. Indeed, as I mentioned before (and I'm sure you can verify) you can apply very small loads (ie, less than a humans weight under 1g) and see significant deflection. A tube that long and with such small diameter is extremebly prone to buckling and bending load failure. If you put a similar load on any of the other tubes, you will probably find that there will be zero measurable deflection.
I say that it could be dangerous, because in very RARE loading conditions, it could buckle in the direction of the driver/codriver. Maybe not so bad for the co-driver, but imagine as a driver, smacking a tree on your side, resulting in that tube buckling and pinning your or arm against the steering wheel. Or in a REALLY bad case, having it buckle and smack you in the arm or leg or whatever.
I know that these are very unlikely scenarios, but my point is more that that bar (being as long and thin as it is) can do very little structurally, unless loaded in tension (which is a very unlikely scenario for it's positioning), so why bother to add it?
| silver04rs | 02-11-2006 07:47 PM |
[QUOTE=AlexP]No offense, but that's a pretty poor way to design a roll cage (ie, copy another design for which you have no clue as to it's merit). I'll agree that it can only make the car stronger, but what I will add is that it can also make the car more unsafe.
I'll tell you right now that a long, unsupported member like that, while "making the car stronger", will only do so by a negligible amount. It is so long, and has such a small area moment of inertia, that it is rendered almost useless. Indeed, as I mentioned before (and I'm sure you can verify) you can apply very small loads (ie, less than a humans weight under 1g) and see significant deflection. A tube that long and with such small diameter is extremebly prone to buckling and bending load failure. If you put a similar load on any of the other tubes, you will probably find that there will be zero measurable deflection.
I say that it could be dangerous, because in very RARE loading conditions, it could buckle in the direction of the driver/codriver. Maybe not so bad for the co-driver, but imagine as a driver, smacking a tree on your side, resulting in that tube buckling and pinning your or arm against the steering wheel. Or in a REALLY bad case, having it buckle and smack you in the arm or leg or whatever.
I know that these are very unlikely scenarios, but my point is more that that bar (being as long and thin as it is) can do very little structurally, unless loaded in tension (which is a very unlikely scenario for it's positioning), so why bother to add it?[/QUOTE]
Ok, I see what your saying but at the same time I would still rather have it in there than not have it at all. and It may look like a small tube but it is as strong as they come. Its 1" .120 wall DOM so it is strong. Also in most cases the regular A-Pilar tube is plenty......... and it works great as something to hold on to as I climb out of the car
Travis
I'll tell you right now that a long, unsupported member like that, while "making the car stronger", will only do so by a negligible amount. It is so long, and has such a small area moment of inertia, that it is rendered almost useless. Indeed, as I mentioned before (and I'm sure you can verify) you can apply very small loads (ie, less than a humans weight under 1g) and see significant deflection. A tube that long and with such small diameter is extremebly prone to buckling and bending load failure. If you put a similar load on any of the other tubes, you will probably find that there will be zero measurable deflection.
I say that it could be dangerous, because in very RARE loading conditions, it could buckle in the direction of the driver/codriver. Maybe not so bad for the co-driver, but imagine as a driver, smacking a tree on your side, resulting in that tube buckling and pinning your or arm against the steering wheel. Or in a REALLY bad case, having it buckle and smack you in the arm or leg or whatever.
I know that these are very unlikely scenarios, but my point is more that that bar (being as long and thin as it is) can do very little structurally, unless loaded in tension (which is a very unlikely scenario for it's positioning), so why bother to add it?[/QUOTE]
Ok, I see what your saying but at the same time I would still rather have it in there than not have it at all. and It may look like a small tube but it is as strong as they come. Its 1" .120 wall DOM so it is strong. Also in most cases the regular A-Pilar tube is plenty......... and it works great as something to hold on to as I climb out of the car
Travis
| LastResort | 02-11-2006 11:58 PM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]Ok, I see what your saying but at the same time I would still rather have it in there than not have it at all. and It may look like a small tube but it is as strong as they come. Its 1" .120 wall DOM so it is strong. Also in most cases the regular A-Pilar tube is plenty......... and it works great as something to hold on to as I climb out of the car
Travis[/QUOTE]
Your missing the point, the tube is not really that strong over a long distance. Add into that you have bolt together cage that has tabs that have no strength outside of tension. Throw in the possibility of a sheared off tube during a major accident or car does crumple into the passenger space. You now have the pretty good opportunity for the cage to fail and you now have more parts to strike, bludgeon, pinch, trap or just plain old take a chunk out of you. I don't want to trade my safety for a little bling.
The Subaru safety rating was attained as a package deal. Airbags, crumple zones, and collapsible steering rack. Change any of these things and you change the effectiveness of the package. Maybe good, maybe bad, but I'm not a metallurgical or structural engineer. Hell if it's my daily driver I would not feel comfortable changing very many of the parts involved in saving my life. 'm not going to take out my stock seats and replace them with aftermarket seats, as I'll loose my airbags. I wont change steering racks to an after market one not designed to collapse. I won't add a role cage, because I wont have a helmet to keep me tender little noggin in one piece, and I certainly would have to wear a full harness all the time.
Just because it's done on a track, doesn't mean it makes sense on the street. See similar art see BOVs, cross drilled rotors and dogbox transmission. They can be done, but don't necessarily help one bit in every day situation.
Travis[/QUOTE]
Your missing the point, the tube is not really that strong over a long distance. Add into that you have bolt together cage that has tabs that have no strength outside of tension. Throw in the possibility of a sheared off tube during a major accident or car does crumple into the passenger space. You now have the pretty good opportunity for the cage to fail and you now have more parts to strike, bludgeon, pinch, trap or just plain old take a chunk out of you. I don't want to trade my safety for a little bling.
The Subaru safety rating was attained as a package deal. Airbags, crumple zones, and collapsible steering rack. Change any of these things and you change the effectiveness of the package. Maybe good, maybe bad, but I'm not a metallurgical or structural engineer. Hell if it's my daily driver I would not feel comfortable changing very many of the parts involved in saving my life. 'm not going to take out my stock seats and replace them with aftermarket seats, as I'll loose my airbags. I wont change steering racks to an after market one not designed to collapse. I won't add a role cage, because I wont have a helmet to keep me tender little noggin in one piece, and I certainly would have to wear a full harness all the time.
Just because it's done on a track, doesn't mean it makes sense on the street. See similar art see BOVs, cross drilled rotors and dogbox transmission. They can be done, but don't necessarily help one bit in every day situation.
| silver04rs | 02-12-2006 03:20 AM |
[QUOTE=LastResort]Your missing the point, the tube is not really that strong over a long distance. Add into that you have bolt together cage that has tabs that have no strength outside of tension. Throw in the possibility of a sheared off tube during a major accident or car does crumple into the passenger space. You now have the pretty good opportunity for the cage to fail and you now have more parts to strike, bludgeon, pinch, trap or just plain old take a chunk out of you. I don't want to trade my safety for a little bling.
The Subaru safety rating was attained as a package deal. Airbags, crumple zones, and collapsible steering rack. Change any of these things and you change the effectiveness of the package. Maybe good, maybe bad, but I'm not a metallurgical or structural engineer. Hell if it's my daily driver I would not feel comfortable changing very many of the parts involved in saving my life. 'm not going to take out my stock seats and replace them with aftermarket seats, as I'll loose my airbags. I wont change steering racks to an after market one not designed to collapse. I won't add a role cage, because I wont have a helmet to keep me tender little noggin in one piece, and I certainly would have to wear a full harness all the time.
Just because it's done on a track, doesn't mean it makes sense on the street. See similar art see BOVs, cross drilled rotors and dogbox transmission. They can be done, but don't necessarily help one bit in every day situation.[/QUOTE]
Well Im not going to keep arguing with you, I feel what I have is great and you dont. I do wear a full 5 pt everyday and it does make sence to me to do that. I dont feel safe in a stock car with air bags, my cage and harness' give me that secure feeling. No I dont wear a helmet and do risk cracking my head open but thats something that I am willing to risk so that I have a car I can go beat the crap out of on a track.
Have fun with your stock seats and air bags :)
Travis
The Subaru safety rating was attained as a package deal. Airbags, crumple zones, and collapsible steering rack. Change any of these things and you change the effectiveness of the package. Maybe good, maybe bad, but I'm not a metallurgical or structural engineer. Hell if it's my daily driver I would not feel comfortable changing very many of the parts involved in saving my life. 'm not going to take out my stock seats and replace them with aftermarket seats, as I'll loose my airbags. I wont change steering racks to an after market one not designed to collapse. I won't add a role cage, because I wont have a helmet to keep me tender little noggin in one piece, and I certainly would have to wear a full harness all the time.
Just because it's done on a track, doesn't mean it makes sense on the street. See similar art see BOVs, cross drilled rotors and dogbox transmission. They can be done, but don't necessarily help one bit in every day situation.[/QUOTE]
Well Im not going to keep arguing with you, I feel what I have is great and you dont. I do wear a full 5 pt everyday and it does make sence to me to do that. I dont feel safe in a stock car with air bags, my cage and harness' give me that secure feeling. No I dont wear a helmet and do risk cracking my head open but thats something that I am willing to risk so that I have a car I can go beat the crap out of on a track.
Have fun with your stock seats and air bags :)
Travis
| leaknoil | 02-12-2006 04:00 AM |
Off topic a bit but, I'm just curious how installing something like that would effect your insurance. Both on liability for your passenger and yourself. If you do get in a wreck on the freeway seems like that cage would give them a reason to deny any claim. If a passanger smacks their head against it seems like you could end up with a big fat medical bill to pay and anything they wanted for suffering. Even 'if' it makes it safer it seems like you might be opening yourself up for a bit of hurt letting anyone else ever ride in it with you.
| BLK REX | 02-12-2006 10:12 AM |
[QUOTE=leaknoil]Off topic a bit but, I'm just curious how installing something like that would effect your insurance. Both on liability for your passenger and yourself. If you do get in a wreck on the freeway seems like that cage would give them a reason to deny any claim. If a passanger smacks their head against it seems like you could end up with a big fat medical bill to pay and anything they wanted for suffering. Even 'if' it makes it safer it seems like you might be opening yourself up for a bit of hurt letting anyone else ever ride in it with you.[/QUOTE]
Thats when you start carrying release/liability forms in your car :)
Thats when you start carrying release/liability forms in your car :)
| greg donovan | 02-12-2006 12:11 PM |
[QUOTE=LastResort]Your missing the point, the tube is not really that strong over a long distance. [B]Add into that you have bolt together cage that has tabs that have no strength outside of tension.[/B] Throw in the possibility of a sheared off tube during a major accident or car does crumple into the passenger space. You now have the pretty good opportunity for the cage to fail and you now have more parts to strike, bludgeon, pinch, trap or just plain old take a chunk out of you. I don't want to trade my safety for a little bling.[/QUOTE]
what are you talking about? the gravel crew cage in silver04rs's car is a very solid [I]welded[/I] in cage. no bolts that i can see. unless he has bolted in floor plates. but i am pretty sure he doesnt.
what are you talking about? the gravel crew cage in silver04rs's car is a very solid [I]welded[/I] in cage. no bolts that i can see. unless he has bolted in floor plates. but i am pretty sure he doesnt.
| LastResort | 02-12-2006 12:34 PM |
[QUOTE=greg donovan]what are you talking about? the gravel crew cage in silver04rs's car is a very solid [I]welded[/I] in cage. no bolts that i can see. unless he has bolted in floor plates. but i am pretty sure he doesnt.[/QUOTE]
I'm still commenting on the bolt in type cages, and just the general perception of safety vs actual safety. I'd like to see a offset crash test of a car with a roll cage and no airbags.
I'm still commenting on the bolt in type cages, and just the general perception of safety vs actual safety. I'd like to see a offset crash test of a car with a roll cage and no airbags.
| davis10 | 02-12-2006 01:36 PM |
well it is a BOLT in cage so what do you expect.
| STiMULi | 02-12-2006 03:21 PM |
[QUOTE=LastResort]I'd like to see a offset crash test of a car with a roll cage and no airbags.[/QUOTE]
No you wouldn't :)
No you wouldn't :)
| turboICE | 02-12-2006 03:29 PM |
When just about every sanctioning body is on the verge of requiring H&N restraints - I find it hard to believe anyone is arguing that there is anything safe about using a harness on the street. I have seen the pics and videos of harnesses without H&N restraint and that is scary before you have the chance of banging your head on the cage.
| LastResort | 02-12-2006 04:09 PM |
[QUOTE=STiMULi]No you wouldn't :)[/QUOTE]
I wasn't volunteering to drive the damned thing.......but I'd probably do it for a case of Miller Light.....
I wasn't volunteering to drive the damned thing.......but I'd probably do it for a case of Miller Light.....
| silver04rs | 02-12-2006 09:16 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]When just about every sanctioning body is on the verge of requiring H&N restraints - I find it hard to believe anyone is arguing that there is anything safe about using a harness on the street. I have seen the pics and videos of harnesses without H&N restraint and that is scary before you have the chance of banging your head on the cage.[/QUOTE]
I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so. If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable. The fact is that in all "pro" motorsports like WRC for instance you have a giant crew and a person checking to see if your device is properly connected. In my case I would be out as a privateer going off feel alone, now if I only had one side cliped and the other felt like it was in....... Well id be dead under a small impact. If you dont belive me do a search for videos on the subject
I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so. If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable. The fact is that in all "pro" motorsports like WRC for instance you have a giant crew and a person checking to see if your device is properly connected. In my case I would be out as a privateer going off feel alone, now if I only had one side cliped and the other felt like it was in....... Well id be dead under a small impact. If you dont belive me do a search for videos on the subject
| trhoppe | 02-12-2006 09:37 PM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so. If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable. The fact is that in all "pro" motorsports like WRC for instance you have a giant crew and a person checking to see if your device is properly connected. In my case I would be out as a privateer going off feel alone, now if I only had one side cliped and the other felt like it was in....... Well id be dead under a small impact. If you dont belive me do a search for videos on the subject[/QUOTE]
YOU are an idiot.
-Tom
YOU are an idiot.
-Tom
| Draken | 02-12-2006 09:50 PM |
Hoppe is a *****
| M. Hurst | 02-12-2006 09:59 PM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs] If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable. [/QUOTE]
Can you guess what the standard response would be from any sanctioning body you send this letter to?
Can you guess what the standard response would be from any sanctioning body you send this letter to?
| STiMULi | 02-12-2006 10:30 PM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so.[/QUOTE]
It has to do with G forces and decelleration times. Speed is only a factor.
It has to do with G forces and decelleration times. Speed is only a factor.
| silver04rs | 02-12-2006 10:48 PM |
[QUOTE=M. Hurst]Can you guess what the standard response would be from any sanctioning body you send this letter to?[/QUOTE]
Yes I can, It will be something along the lines of well dont come out if you dont like our rules.
Yes I can, It will be something along the lines of well dont come out if you dont like our rules.
| AlanO | 02-12-2006 10:51 PM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so. If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable. The fact is that in all "pro" motorsports like WRC for instance you have a giant crew and a person checking to see if your device is properly connected. In my case I would be out as a privateer going off feel alone, now if I only had one side cliped and the other felt like it was in....... Well id be dead under a small impact. If you dont belive me do a search for videos on the subject[/QUOTE]
I'm speechless.
I'm speechless.
| MFR Sweep | 02-12-2006 11:45 PM |
[QUOTE=AlanO]I'm speechless.[/QUOTE]
X eleventy :huh: :eek: :confused:
X eleventy :huh: :eek: :confused:
| greg donovan | 02-13-2006 12:42 AM |
ask christian what he thinks of his HANS.
| silver04rs | 02-13-2006 01:33 AM |
[QUOTE=greg donovan]ask christian what he thinks of his HANS.[/QUOTE]
Whos Christian?
And I knew that I would be ridiculed for poting this but at the same time this is how I feel about the subject. Most pepole dont know about the dangers of using the HANS if its not on correctly
Whos Christian?
And I knew that I would be ridiculed for poting this but at the same time this is how I feel about the subject. Most pepole dont know about the dangers of using the HANS if its not on correctly
| enduroshark | 02-13-2006 09:11 AM |
Please explain, for the benefit of us in the dark, how a HANS device that is not installed correctly is a "danger" more so than not actually using the HANS at all?
| turboICE | 02-13-2006 09:21 AM |
First I said H&N restraint - I never said use a Hans ;) whether you are capable of following its proper use or not.
[QUOTE=silver04rs]I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so. If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable.[/QUOTE]
My hope is that from this mere post - you are never allowed to participate in any sanctioned race anywhere. This is the exact type of attitude that serves to injure every type of motorsport (especially the cost of running stage rally or a road race series) in the US - thanks alot. You strap yourself in and participate in an event and [B][I]you are responsible[/I][/B], nobody else. Racing is dangerous - Doh!
Since every sanctioning body is on the verge of requiring them now - please send your letter with name and license number of each santioning body you participate in. The sooner participants like you are identified and excluded the better the sport will be.
And this has nothing to do with criticizing a sanctioning body decision - I am all for everyone's right to voice that. This has to do with the fact that you think being injured in a race gives you or your beneficiaries the right to sue anyone.
[QUOTE=silver04rs]I will not wear a H&N restraint device, they scare the crap out of me and are not really needed unless your doing over 150 or so. If any sanctioning bodies try and enforce this I will be sending them a letter saying that if I am killed due to a H&N device they are responable.[/QUOTE]
My hope is that from this mere post - you are never allowed to participate in any sanctioned race anywhere. This is the exact type of attitude that serves to injure every type of motorsport (especially the cost of running stage rally or a road race series) in the US - thanks alot. You strap yourself in and participate in an event and [B][I]you are responsible[/I][/B], nobody else. Racing is dangerous - Doh!
Since every sanctioning body is on the verge of requiring them now - please send your letter with name and license number of each santioning body you participate in. The sooner participants like you are identified and excluded the better the sport will be.
And this has nothing to do with criticizing a sanctioning body decision - I am all for everyone's right to voice that. This has to do with the fact that you think being injured in a race gives you or your beneficiaries the right to sue anyone.
| greg donovan | 02-13-2006 09:23 AM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]Whos Christian?
And I knew that I would be ridiculed for poting this but at the same time this is how I feel about the subject. Most pepole dont know about the dangers of using the HANS if its not on correctly[/QUOTE]
Christian Edstrom, bjorn240 is his screen name here, he is travis pastrana's co driver.
And I knew that I would be ridiculed for poting this but at the same time this is how I feel about the subject. Most pepole dont know about the dangers of using the HANS if its not on correctly[/QUOTE]
Christian Edstrom, bjorn240 is his screen name here, he is travis pastrana's co driver.
| MFR Sweep | 02-13-2006 09:38 AM |
[QUOTE=greg donovan] he is travis pastrana's co driver.[/QUOTE]
No wonder he wears a Hans Device.... :eek:
[SIZE=1]re-edit for clarity[/SIZE]
No wonder he wears a Hans Device.... :eek:
[SIZE=1]re-edit for clarity[/SIZE]
| bjorn240 | 02-13-2006 09:44 AM |
I like my HANS, and it's easy to connect the tethers to the helmet, and the engagement is very clear and audible, so Travis's fears are completely unfounded.
That said, as far as I know, Travis runs rallycross. In rallycross, I don't really see this as a major issue, given the low speed and general squishiness of the cones. Besides, for rallycross, mandating fixed-back seats and cages must take priority over H&N devices in my mind.
But yeah, for stage rallying, I think a H&N restraint 's a reasonable solution to a known safety risk. Just like a cage, harnesses, helmets, fire suits, plumbed-in fire suppression systems....
- Christian
That said, as far as I know, Travis runs rallycross. In rallycross, I don't really see this as a major issue, given the low speed and general squishiness of the cones. Besides, for rallycross, mandating fixed-back seats and cages must take priority over H&N devices in my mind.
But yeah, for stage rallying, I think a H&N restraint 's a reasonable solution to a known safety risk. Just like a cage, harnesses, helmets, fire suits, plumbed-in fire suppression systems....
- Christian
| MFR Sweep | 02-13-2006 09:44 AM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]Whos Christian?
And I knew that I would be ridiculed for poting this but at the same time this is how I feel about the subject. Most pepole dont know about the dangers of using the HANS if its not on correctly[/QUOTE]
I believe enduroshark was refering to this post.
[QUOTE=turboICE]First I said H&N restraint - I never said use a Hans whether you are capable of following its proper use or not.
[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]Phew fixzored[/SIZE]
And I knew that I would be ridiculed for poting this but at the same time this is how I feel about the subject. Most pepole dont know about the dangers of using the HANS if its not on correctly[/QUOTE]
I believe enduroshark was refering to this post.
[QUOTE=turboICE]First I said H&N restraint - I never said use a Hans whether you are capable of following its proper use or not.
[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]Phew fixzored[/SIZE]
| bjorn240 | 02-13-2006 09:46 AM |
Removed, since MFR Sweep edited his post for clarity.
- Christian
- Christian
| MFR Sweep | 02-13-2006 09:52 AM |
I edited the post, misread a couple before. I read the posts like: " Most people don't realize the dangers of using the Hans incorrectly, Ask Christian" and after reading that all I could picture was Colorado. watching that at the time all I could think was thank god you guys had Hans.
| bjorn240 | 02-13-2006 10:00 AM |
I actually don't think the HANS made any difference in Colorado. There were no sudden frontal impact, and since we rolled such a distance, we actually had a very long time to dissipate all the energy. The seat wings and having the harnesses on TIGHT definitely helped though.
Head on into a tree on Wilsons Mills, though... *knock on wood*
- Christian
Head on into a tree on Wilsons Mills, though... *knock on wood*
- Christian
| turboICE | 02-13-2006 10:05 AM |
MFR your second quote was from me not silver and it was related to silver's rant on Hans.
I wouldn't expect rallycross will have H&N requirements any more than auto-cross will - and yes in order to properly utilize H&N restraints you kinda need to have seat, 4 point cage and harness requirements first. :)
I wouldn't expect rallycross will have H&N requirements any more than auto-cross will - and yes in order to properly utilize H&N restraints you kinda need to have seat, 4 point cage and harness requirements first. :)
| MFR Sweep | 02-13-2006 10:13 AM |
I must have a case of the mondays :huh:
| greg donovan | 02-13-2006 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE=MFR Sweep]I must have a case of the mondays :huh:[/QUOTE]
i think they have a pill or an ointment for that now.
i think they have a pill or an ointment for that now.
| MFR Sweep | 02-13-2006 10:49 AM |
I sure as hell hope so
[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Checking Rite Aid circular[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Checking Rite Aid circular[/SIZE][/COLOR]
| trhoppe | 02-13-2006 10:51 AM |
[url]http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg[/url]
Here is a great video of the HANS still working when failing :)
-Tom
Here is a great video of the HANS still working when failing :)
-Tom
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét