| dibblejr | 04-02-2007 05:10 PM |
I already know this. I have welded for the NC State Dept of Correction. My product is not painted. just primered.
Dude, what happened to you last weekend? Sent you a PM but no reply, then you didnt show up, however I met a "zino". Just wondering.
Jay-R
[QUOTE=zeeto;17574927]I'm not jumpping into this to say that such and such company's product is better than the other. Instead, just to state that quality of a weld is not always noticeable, especially after paint, in regards to a MIG weld. MIG is the one process where a "pretty" weld can be structurally inept.[/QUOTE]
Dude, what happened to you last weekend? Sent you a PM but no reply, then you didnt show up, however I met a "zino". Just wondering.
Jay-R
[QUOTE=zeeto;17574927]I'm not jumpping into this to say that such and such company's product is better than the other. Instead, just to state that quality of a weld is not always noticeable, especially after paint, in regards to a MIG weld. MIG is the one process where a "pretty" weld can be structurally inept.[/QUOTE]
| dibblejr | 04-02-2007 05:15 PM |
WOW:eek: you are an original... If you dont like what you read and cant make knowledgeable posts, then why post? Thats half the problems on NASIOC, members got to throw irrelevant posts in informative threads about a product.
It would be different if you bought the same bar I did and it broke in a crash, then that would be usefull info, but all you have contributed to my thread is verage.
As far as your last comment, how many loggs from events do you have?
JAy-R
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]Man, you're so far out there... you have no idea.[/QUOTE]
It would be different if you bought the same bar I did and it broke in a crash, then that would be usefull info, but all you have contributed to my thread is verage.
As far as your last comment, how many loggs from events do you have?
JAy-R
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]Man, you're so far out there... you have no idea.[/QUOTE]
| Mykl | 04-02-2007 06:00 PM |
[QUOTE=dibblejr;17575487]WOW:eek: you are an original... If you dont like what you read and cant make knowledgeable posts, then why post? Thats half the problems on NASIOC, members got to throw irrelevant posts in informative threads about a product.
It would be different if you bought the same bar I did and it broke in a crash, then that would be usefull info, but all you have contributed to my thread is verage.
As far as your last comment, how many loggs from events do you have?
JAy-R[/QUOTE]
ugh, no...
1. I'm not upset
...now, brace yourself..
2. I don't have a harness bar
...because...
3. I don't have a harness
You're really starting to come across as a troll now. You're being very aggressive towards somebody who has been pretty mellow. Personally, I would say half the problem with NASIOC is posts like you've been dropping in this thread. So why don't you calm down a bit?
Here's the thing about safety equipment... I'd rather not have to talk about questionable safety equipment because I have had the experience of dealing with a failure. Do you want to be the crash test dummy who finds out if the welds on your untested bar breaks and sends you through the windshield on impact? Do you want to be the one who finds out if your stock seat breaks and your neck gets broken over it in a roll?
I can talk about how good the stock Impreza's safety gear is. I've flipped a WRX at the track and the OEM three point, stock seat, and obscenely strong b-pillar kept me alive.
There have been plenty of good posts in this thread talking about how a harness bar is probably a bad idea outside of an autocross, so I'll spare you my personal thoughts on them. But I will say what I have already said... with a DOT tested and approved harness on the market, there's absolutely no reason to run a bar. None.
If you want to use a bar, more power to you, but at least you've made the decision knowing the risks. This is not a decision anybody should make without knowing the risks.
It would be different if you bought the same bar I did and it broke in a crash, then that would be usefull info, but all you have contributed to my thread is verage.
As far as your last comment, how many loggs from events do you have?
JAy-R[/QUOTE]
ugh, no...
1. I'm not upset
...now, brace yourself..
2. I don't have a harness bar
...because...
3. I don't have a harness
You're really starting to come across as a troll now. You're being very aggressive towards somebody who has been pretty mellow. Personally, I would say half the problem with NASIOC is posts like you've been dropping in this thread. So why don't you calm down a bit?
Here's the thing about safety equipment... I'd rather not have to talk about questionable safety equipment because I have had the experience of dealing with a failure. Do you want to be the crash test dummy who finds out if the welds on your untested bar breaks and sends you through the windshield on impact? Do you want to be the one who finds out if your stock seat breaks and your neck gets broken over it in a roll?
I can talk about how good the stock Impreza's safety gear is. I've flipped a WRX at the track and the OEM three point, stock seat, and obscenely strong b-pillar kept me alive.
There have been plenty of good posts in this thread talking about how a harness bar is probably a bad idea outside of an autocross, so I'll spare you my personal thoughts on them. But I will say what I have already said... with a DOT tested and approved harness on the market, there's absolutely no reason to run a bar. None.
If you want to use a bar, more power to you, but at least you've made the decision knowing the risks. This is not a decision anybody should make without knowing the risks.
| dibblejr | 04-02-2007 06:07 PM |
^^ Finally you say something that we can agree on, "[COLOR="Navy"][B] with a DOT tested and approved harness on the market, there's absolutely no reason to run a bar. None.[/B][/COLOR] As I stated I use mine for a stable camera mount.
As for the "troll" comment.... your not worth what I want to say. Now you have said your piece, please move on.
JAy-R
As for the "troll" comment.... your not worth what I want to say. Now you have said your piece, please move on.
JAy-R
| Mykl | 04-02-2007 06:27 PM |
:rolleyes: If you go back in the thread you'll see that that was the VERY FIRST thing I said.
You don't need to install a bar in your back seat to have a place to mount your camera. Here's one good option...
[url]http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60066&highlight=camera+mount[/url]
You don't need to install a bar in your back seat to have a place to mount your camera. Here's one good option...
[url]http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60066&highlight=camera+mount[/url]
| dibblejr | 04-02-2007 06:31 PM |
^^ Personally I would rather take my chances with the bar than a two piece flat steel mount.
It looks ok though, is it the same for the wagon? Not a bad looking item.
It looks ok though, is it the same for the wagon? Not a bad looking item.
| Mykl | 04-02-2007 06:34 PM |
[QUOTE=dibblejr;17576501]^^ Personally I would rather take my chances with the bar than a two piece flat steel mount.
It looks ok though, is it the same for the wagon? Not a bad looking item.[/QUOTE]
The only hitch with that mount is that you need to recline the passenger seat to get a really good view.
I'm probably going to go with a good bullet cam and a separate microphone when I get a camera setup. But that has less to do with the bar and more to do with wanting increased flexibility for choosing my angles.
It looks ok though, is it the same for the wagon? Not a bad looking item.[/QUOTE]
The only hitch with that mount is that you need to recline the passenger seat to get a really good view.
I'm probably going to go with a good bullet cam and a separate microphone when I get a camera setup. But that has less to do with the bar and more to do with wanting increased flexibility for choosing my angles.
| martinus | 04-02-2007 10:43 PM |
OMG what a cluster **** of a thread...
To whom ever it may concern.
The botom line. Do NOT be suprised ( build your car, how ever the hell you want. ) but IF you do actually shop up @ a track. ( the real one, that requires a steering wheel. ) You will NOT be allowed on. ( with the above BS harness bar/5pt race harness. )
Just because someone makes a pruduct ( brand name or ebay type ) Does not mean its safe. They are just after your money...
Its real easy, you have 5 choices :
Stock seats, stock belts, NO BS harness bars, NO roll bars, NO real deal cages - OK
Stock seats, real race belts - OK
Stock seats, real race belts mounted to "harness-bar" - Good luck !
Stock seat, harness and cage - OK
Race seat ( non recline ), harness, and cage - even better.
Google "spinal compression". I'm not "hating" but actually trying to help. Stop taking it like personal indult/attack * sigh * realize that ...
To whom ever it may concern.
The botom line. Do NOT be suprised ( build your car, how ever the hell you want. ) but IF you do actually shop up @ a track. ( the real one, that requires a steering wheel. ) You will NOT be allowed on. ( with the above BS harness bar/5pt race harness. )
Just because someone makes a pruduct ( brand name or ebay type ) Does not mean its safe. They are just after your money...
Its real easy, you have 5 choices :
Stock seats, stock belts, NO BS harness bars, NO roll bars, NO real deal cages - OK
Stock seats, real race belts - OK
Stock seats, real race belts mounted to "harness-bar" - Good luck !
Stock seat, harness and cage - OK
Race seat ( non recline ), harness, and cage - even better.
Google "spinal compression". I'm not "hating" but actually trying to help. Stop taking it like personal indult/attack * sigh * realize that ...
| shadyrex | 04-03-2007 12:04 AM |
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]Man, you're so far out there... you have no idea.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]You're being very aggressive towards somebody who has been pretty mellow.[/QUOTE]
:huh: Mellow?
In my 5yrs on this forum I have never said anything negative to anyone [B]ever[/B] until now.....
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]You're really starting to come across as a troll now..
[/QUOTE]
You come across as a dink, you sure know how to kill a thread.
I'm sure someone will say something nasty about me in the next few posts and I'm fine with that. This forum sure has changed from when I first became a member. I can remember when we used to help each other out. Now I guess I'm no better since even I finally stooped to name calling. :mad:
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]You're being very aggressive towards somebody who has been pretty mellow.[/QUOTE]
:huh: Mellow?
In my 5yrs on this forum I have never said anything negative to anyone [B]ever[/B] until now.....
[QUOTE=Mykl;17574795]You're really starting to come across as a troll now..
[/QUOTE]
You come across as a dink, you sure know how to kill a thread.
I'm sure someone will say something nasty about me in the next few posts and I'm fine with that. This forum sure has changed from when I first became a member. I can remember when we used to help each other out. Now I guess I'm no better since even I finally stooped to name calling. :mad:
| Mykl | 04-03-2007 12:20 AM |
[QUOTE=shadyrex;17580370]:rolleyes:
:huh: Mellow?
In my 5yrs on this forum I have never said anything negative to anyone [B]ever[/B] until now.....
You come across as a dink, you sure know how to kill a thread.
I'm sure someone will say something nasty about me in the next few posts and I'm fine with that. This forum sure has changed from when I first became a member. I can remember when we used to help each other out. Now I guess I'm no better since even I finally stooped to name calling. :mad:[/QUOTE]
wtf??? All I said was "Did you really expect to have a discussion about safety equipment and not have a discussion about safety?" and I get all this?
Yeah, I'm a f***ing dink. :rolleyes: People talking about safety in a thread that revolves around safety equipment.... imagine that!
Mellow? Yes, I HAVE been pretty mellow. So why are you trying to stir up s*** after the dust had settled?
:huh: Mellow?
In my 5yrs on this forum I have never said anything negative to anyone [B]ever[/B] until now.....
You come across as a dink, you sure know how to kill a thread.
I'm sure someone will say something nasty about me in the next few posts and I'm fine with that. This forum sure has changed from when I first became a member. I can remember when we used to help each other out. Now I guess I'm no better since even I finally stooped to name calling. :mad:[/QUOTE]
wtf??? All I said was "Did you really expect to have a discussion about safety equipment and not have a discussion about safety?" and I get all this?
Yeah, I'm a f***ing dink. :rolleyes: People talking about safety in a thread that revolves around safety equipment.... imagine that!
Mellow? Yes, I HAVE been pretty mellow. So why are you trying to stir up s*** after the dust had settled?
| Mykl | 04-03-2007 12:28 AM |
I got my concern out there, shadyrex... you can argue with yourself if you want. I hope you feel good about being "one of the dinks" now. :rolleyes:
| shadyrex | 04-03-2007 01:41 AM |
*Sigh* Instead of editing my post I'll leave it up so that others can see what I said and I'm not being an internet coward by edit/erasing it. I should start by apologizing to you Mykl. I should have let the dust settle even if I disagreed with how others are treated when they expressed opinions here, I was immature. As I said I have never put anyone down before here and shouldn't have started now. I'm fine with being the jerk, cause well... I really am one in person but I should've kept that comment to myself. So, now that I've apologized for my behavior I am going to stay away from this thread and do what I have done since becoming a member on this site: Don't get involved in a thread that's going south even if I disagree with it. Sorry everyone, continue on.
| RS_Racer | 04-03-2007 07:21 AM |
[QUOTE=martinus;17579442]OMG what a cluster **** of a thread...
To whom ever it may concern.
The botom line. Do NOT be suprised ( build your car, how ever the hell you want. ) but IF you do actually shop up @ a track. ( the real one, that requires a steering wheel. ) You will NOT be allowed on. ( with the above BS harness bar/5pt race harness. )
Just because someone makes a pruduct ( brand name or ebay type ) Does not mean its safe. They are just after your money...
Its real easy, you have 5 choices :
Stock seats, stock belts, NO BS harness bars, NO roll bars, NO real deal cages - OK
Stock seats, real race belts - OK
Stock seats, real race belts mounted to "harness-bar" - Good luck !
Stock seat, harness and cage - OK
Race seat ( non recline ), harness, and cage - even better.
Google "spinal compression". I'm not "hating" but actually trying to help. Stop taking it like personal indult/attack * sigh * realize that ...[/QUOTE]
This post is pretty misleading. I see a lot of people running 5 and 6 point harnesses with stock seats. From what I've been told, that is not safe. Running the sub-strap over the front of a factory seat is NOT the way to do it, and the sub-belt is not effective due to the angle its put at.
I'd like to also see somebody address the use of HANS devices. To run a HANS device, you need a harness belt. OK, so say somebody gets a HANS device to us at DE's in their street car but they do not want a rollbar in their daily driver. So they just get a harness bar or harness that does not require one. Are you telling me that they should NOT use that setup because they don't have rollover protection? Since frontal impacts are much more likely than rollovers, I personally would rate a HANS device ahead of a rollbar on the safety priority list.
To whom ever it may concern.
The botom line. Do NOT be suprised ( build your car, how ever the hell you want. ) but IF you do actually shop up @ a track. ( the real one, that requires a steering wheel. ) You will NOT be allowed on. ( with the above BS harness bar/5pt race harness. )
Just because someone makes a pruduct ( brand name or ebay type ) Does not mean its safe. They are just after your money...
Its real easy, you have 5 choices :
Stock seats, stock belts, NO BS harness bars, NO roll bars, NO real deal cages - OK
Stock seats, real race belts - OK
Stock seats, real race belts mounted to "harness-bar" - Good luck !
Stock seat, harness and cage - OK
Race seat ( non recline ), harness, and cage - even better.
Google "spinal compression". I'm not "hating" but actually trying to help. Stop taking it like personal indult/attack * sigh * realize that ...[/QUOTE]
This post is pretty misleading. I see a lot of people running 5 and 6 point harnesses with stock seats. From what I've been told, that is not safe. Running the sub-strap over the front of a factory seat is NOT the way to do it, and the sub-belt is not effective due to the angle its put at.
I'd like to also see somebody address the use of HANS devices. To run a HANS device, you need a harness belt. OK, so say somebody gets a HANS device to us at DE's in their street car but they do not want a rollbar in their daily driver. So they just get a harness bar or harness that does not require one. Are you telling me that they should NOT use that setup because they don't have rollover protection? Since frontal impacts are much more likely than rollovers, I personally would rate a HANS device ahead of a rollbar on the safety priority list.
| Butt Dyno | 04-03-2007 07:34 AM |
[QUOTE=RS_Racer;17582689]This post is pretty misleading. I see a lot of people running 5 and 6 point harnesses with stock seats. From what I've been told, that is not safe. Running the sub-strap over the front of a factory seat is NOT the way to do it, and the sub-belt is not effective due to the angle its put at.[/quote]I have seen this at DE's a lot too. Last April my instructor had a 6-point in his Miata... with the stock seats. So not only was the sub strap over the front of the seat, the shoulder belts were also wrapped around a set totally not designed for them. If that won't make you fail tech I have no idea what will :(
| martinus | 04-03-2007 07:38 AM |
Some places will let you run a harnes with a stock seat , some wont. Ther agrument is that a stock seat will colapse in a roll over, and you will not be straped to an imovable object as the roof comes down.
Its kind of an all or nothing deal.
I like how you're trying to beat the odds... with the there is a less chance of rollover then a crash /spin. So you are planing to only buy stuff that would be need for A particular crash...
Yeah, thats how it works.
Its kind of an all or nothing deal.
I like how you're trying to beat the odds... with the there is a less chance of rollover then a crash /spin. So you are planing to only buy stuff that would be need for A particular crash...
Yeah, thats how it works.
| RS_Racer | 04-03-2007 08:26 AM |
[QUOTE=martinus;17582723]Some places will let you run a harnes with a stock seat , some wont. Ther agrument is that a stock seat will colapse in a roll over, and you will not be straped to an imovable object as the roof comes down.
Its kind of an all or nothing deal.
I like how you're trying to beat the odds... with the there is a less chance of rollover then a crash /spin. So you are planing to only buy stuff that would be need for A particular crash...
Yeah, thats how it works.[/QUOTE]
Its all about odds. You wear a helmet because the most likely cause of injury in a crash is hitting your head on something. Rollovers are pretty rare compared to frontal impacts, so I would prefer a HANS device over a rollbar if I had to choose just one. Naturally I would prefer both a HANS setup AND a rollbar, but some people are just not going to put a rollbar in their street car and we need to face that fact.
Its kind of an all or nothing deal.
I like how you're trying to beat the odds... with the there is a less chance of rollover then a crash /spin. So you are planing to only buy stuff that would be need for A particular crash...
Yeah, thats how it works.[/QUOTE]
Its all about odds. You wear a helmet because the most likely cause of injury in a crash is hitting your head on something. Rollovers are pretty rare compared to frontal impacts, so I would prefer a HANS device over a rollbar if I had to choose just one. Naturally I would prefer both a HANS setup AND a rollbar, but some people are just not going to put a rollbar in their street car and we need to face that fact.
| Mykl | 04-03-2007 08:32 AM |
[QUOTE=shadyrex;17581371]*Sigh* Instead of editing my post I'll leave it up so that others can see what I said and I'm not being an internet coward by edit/erasing it. I should start by apologizing to you Mykl. I should have let the dust settle even if I disagreed with how others are treated when they expressed opinions here, I was immature. As I said I have never put anyone down before here and shouldn't have started now. I'm fine with being the jerk, cause well... I really am one in person but I should've kept that comment to myself. So, now that I've apologized for my behavior I am going to stay away from this thread and do what I have done since becoming a member on this site: Don't get involved in a thread that's going south even if I disagree with it. Sorry everyone, continue on.[/QUOTE]
Man, I wasn't trying to get into an argument in the first place... I didn't think what I said [i]to begin with[/i] was all that harsh...
No hard feelings.
Man, I wasn't trying to get into an argument in the first place... I didn't think what I said [i]to begin with[/i] was all that harsh...
No hard feelings.
| dibblejr | 04-03-2007 10:09 AM |
Ok, I am going to reserve any more of my comments to anyone who actually wants further information concerning the product that I provided the review on.
As stated before there are other forums " Motorsports" to name one of them and "General" to name another that anyone who would like to trash their own thread to start a thread in.
This thread was started as a "Parts Review" thread not a "Safety" thread, I posted my opinion of the product that I purchased, and it is just as well made as the brand X harness bar.
If anyone would like to test it in a "Frontal Impact" or "Rollover" I will gladly send it to you for the test. Otherwise please keep your comments pertaining to the subject matter.
The safety of Rollcages and Harness Bars have been discussed in other threads and a simple search will land you in one of those to post comments.
Jay-R
As stated before there are other forums " Motorsports" to name one of them and "General" to name another that anyone who would like to trash their own thread to start a thread in.
This thread was started as a "Parts Review" thread not a "Safety" thread, I posted my opinion of the product that I purchased, and it is just as well made as the brand X harness bar.
If anyone would like to test it in a "Frontal Impact" or "Rollover" I will gladly send it to you for the test. Otherwise please keep your comments pertaining to the subject matter.
The safety of Rollcages and Harness Bars have been discussed in other threads and a simple search will land you in one of those to post comments.
Jay-R
| remowgn | 04-03-2007 11:32 AM |
[QUOTE=dibblejr;17583915]Ok, I am going to reserve any more of my comments to anyone who actually wants further information concerning the product that I provided the review on.
As stated before there are other forums " Motorsports" to name one of them and "General" to name another that anyone who would like to trash their own thread to start a thread in.
This thread was started as a "Parts Review" thread not a "Safety" thread, I posted my opinion of the product that I purchased, and it is just as well made as the brand X harness bar.
If anyone would like to test it in a "Frontal Impact" or "Rollover" I will gladly send it to you for the test. Otherwise please keep your comments pertaining to the subject matter.
The safety of Rollcages and Harness Bars have been discussed in other threads and a simple search will land you in one of those to post comments.
Jay-R[/QUOTE]
Dude! Did you even read the first post in this thread?? It was NEVER a "review" thread, and it was ALWAYS a "safety of roll cages and harness bars" thread. I think you got lost and didn't realize it. No wonder you were arguing so much. :lol: :lol: :lol:
[QUOTE=ewright;10330444]Hi everyone,
In light of several recent incidents I am rethinking the safety of my current setup. I have a rally innovations harness bar with a 6 point willans harness. I am wondering whether my harness bar will hold up in a severe frontal impact. I know that a roll bar/cage would be safer, but my STi is my daily driver so this isnt an option. I would like to know if anyone has any concrete information (i.e. more than simple supposition) on this issue. thanks
ernie[/QUOTE]
As stated before there are other forums " Motorsports" to name one of them and "General" to name another that anyone who would like to trash their own thread to start a thread in.
This thread was started as a "Parts Review" thread not a "Safety" thread, I posted my opinion of the product that I purchased, and it is just as well made as the brand X harness bar.
If anyone would like to test it in a "Frontal Impact" or "Rollover" I will gladly send it to you for the test. Otherwise please keep your comments pertaining to the subject matter.
The safety of Rollcages and Harness Bars have been discussed in other threads and a simple search will land you in one of those to post comments.
Jay-R[/QUOTE]
Dude! Did you even read the first post in this thread?? It was NEVER a "review" thread, and it was ALWAYS a "safety of roll cages and harness bars" thread. I think you got lost and didn't realize it. No wonder you were arguing so much. :lol: :lol: :lol:
[QUOTE=ewright;10330444]Hi everyone,
In light of several recent incidents I am rethinking the safety of my current setup. I have a rally innovations harness bar with a 6 point willans harness. I am wondering whether my harness bar will hold up in a severe frontal impact. I know that a roll bar/cage would be safer, but my STi is my daily driver so this isnt an option. I would like to know if anyone has any concrete information (i.e. more than simple supposition) on this issue. thanks
ernie[/QUOTE]
| martinus | 04-03-2007 08:27 PM |
[QUOTE=RS_Racer;17582914]Its all about odds. You wear a helmet because the most likely cause of injury in a crash is hitting your head on something. Rollovers are pretty rare compared to frontal impacts, so I would prefer a HANS device over a rollbar if I had to choose just one. Naturally I would prefer both a HANS setup AND a rollbar, but some people are just not going to put a rollbar in their street car and we need to face that fact.[/QUOTE]
Oh-oh we got a rocket scientist here...
There are 2 flaws with that.
1. Its is NOT about the odds. :rolleyes: You either prapare for the worst or nothing @ all. ( didn't I mention this before ? ) Please stop with the half arsed Mickey Mouse BS... save yoour money elsewhere.
BTW [i]our[/i] cars love to be sideways, almost all the time. So how do you get a frontal collison, having a higher odd, than a spin or rollover ? ( I hope you don't say in traffic, on the street. )
2. Lets break this down, componet by component ( For what ever reason you want a HANS. Please don't say street racing... )
-You should already be wearing a helmet. ( the HANS clips to it. )
-You WILL need 3in. belts/harness. ( the HANS is straped down between your shoulders and the belts. )
-You wont be able to use a harness properly without a race seat.
-You would ( of course ) need to secure the belts... properly. On a rollcage. :banana:
- ... and yes, you should NOT plan on / or put a cage in car, if you are not going wear a helmet ALL the time. ( know some autocross miata guys that run rollbar's with no padding. No safety rules in AX, exept for helmets.He did not need to have padding. Abyway one dude spun, hit a curb & he hit his helmeted head on the bar... "rung his bell " purdy good. Couldnt walk or speak right until the next day. :eek: 2 day event, came back from the ER to watch the rest of the AX.)
So. Where does that put us ? Right back at the top of the list.
Please explain what component you could leave out and still be safe ?
Is this where you tell me a harness bar a correct substitute for a rolll bar/cage ?
Not if, but when you roll the car, and you are staped in nice and upright, to the seat, and the roof comes down / caves in. I don't think your harness bar with your HANS will do you any good... ( I don't even think you have the 500$ for one. Even if you do there is plenty of other stuff you still need to buy, like the above mentioned. )
To the guy telling everyone to start their own thread, and how this is not about safety... What is the title of this thread ?
Oh-oh we got a rocket scientist here...
There are 2 flaws with that.
1. Its is NOT about the odds. :rolleyes: You either prapare for the worst or nothing @ all. ( didn't I mention this before ? ) Please stop with the half arsed Mickey Mouse BS... save yoour money elsewhere.
BTW [i]our[/i] cars love to be sideways, almost all the time. So how do you get a frontal collison, having a higher odd, than a spin or rollover ? ( I hope you don't say in traffic, on the street. )
2. Lets break this down, componet by component ( For what ever reason you want a HANS. Please don't say street racing... )
-You should already be wearing a helmet. ( the HANS clips to it. )
-You WILL need 3in. belts/harness. ( the HANS is straped down between your shoulders and the belts. )
-You wont be able to use a harness properly without a race seat.
-You would ( of course ) need to secure the belts... properly. On a rollcage. :banana:
- ... and yes, you should NOT plan on / or put a cage in car, if you are not going wear a helmet ALL the time. ( know some autocross miata guys that run rollbar's with no padding. No safety rules in AX, exept for helmets.He did not need to have padding. Abyway one dude spun, hit a curb & he hit his helmeted head on the bar... "rung his bell " purdy good. Couldnt walk or speak right until the next day. :eek: 2 day event, came back from the ER to watch the rest of the AX.)
So. Where does that put us ? Right back at the top of the list.
Please explain what component you could leave out and still be safe ?
Is this where you tell me a harness bar a correct substitute for a rolll bar/cage ?
Not if, but when you roll the car, and you are staped in nice and upright, to the seat, and the roof comes down / caves in. I don't think your harness bar with your HANS will do you any good... ( I don't even think you have the 500$ for one. Even if you do there is plenty of other stuff you still need to buy, like the above mentioned. )
To the guy telling everyone to start their own thread, and how this is not about safety... What is the title of this thread ?
| dibblejr | 04-03-2007 08:53 PM |
Arrrrrg, I hate it when this kind of thing happens. You are right, somebody linked this thread to my Harness Bar review thread, I apologize for the confussion. With that I am going to unsubscribe to this thread and stay in my own.
Jay-R
Jay-R
| RS_Racer | 04-04-2007 07:25 AM |
[QUOTE=martinus;17592630]Oh-oh we got a rocket scientist here...
There are 2 flaws with that.
1. Its is NOT about the odds. :rolleyes: You either prapare for the worst or nothing @ all. ( didn't I mention this before ? ) Please stop with the half arsed Mickey Mouse BS... save yoour money elsewhere.
BTW [i]our[/i] cars love to be sideways, almost all the time. So how do you get a frontal collison, having a higher odd, than a spin or rollover ? ( I hope you don't say in traffic, on the street. )
2. Lets break this down, componet by component ( For what ever reason you want a HANS. Please don't say street racing... )
-You should already be wearing a helmet. ( the HANS clips to it. )
-You WILL need 3in. belts/harness. ( the HANS is straped down between your shoulders and the belts. )
-You wont be able to use a harness properly without a race seat.
-You would ( of course ) need to secure the belts... properly. On a rollcage. :banana:
- ... and yes, you should NOT plan on / or put a cage in car, if you are not going wear a helmet ALL the time. ( know some autocross miata guys that run rollbar's with no padding. No safety rules in AX, exept for helmets.He did not need to have padding. Abyway one dude spun, hit a curb & he hit his helmeted head on the bar... "rung his bell " purdy good. Couldnt walk or speak right until the next day. :eek: 2 day event, came back from the ER to watch the rest of the AX.)
So. Where does that put us ? Right back at the top of the list.
Please explain what component you could leave out and still be safe ?
Is this where you tell me a harness bar a correct substitute for a rolll bar/cage ?
Not if, but when you roll the car, and you are staped in nice and upright, to the seat, and the roof comes down / caves in. I don't think your harness bar with your HANS will do you any good... ( I don't even think you have the 500$ for one. Even if you do there is plenty of other stuff you still need to buy, like the above mentioned. )
To the guy telling everyone to start their own thread, and how this is not about safety... What is the title of this thread ?[/QUOTE]
First off, you seem to (think you) know a lot about safety equipment. Could you please let us know what your credentials are and what kind of testing you have done with all of this safety equipment?
And if you actually think that in a rollover accident you will be able to duck out of the way of a collapsing roof, you are nuts. Please explain to me how you would do that with all of the G Forces your body is experiencing! You are along for the ride. And I remember reading a safety seminar that stated the MOST COMMON injuries in rollovers are caused by arms and head exiting the vehicle, NOT the roof collapsing on the occupants. This probably explains why you will soon see 4 pt harnesses in all passenger vehicles (Ford and a few others are testing them) ...look at some of the Lotus Elise track cars...they come from the factory with 4 pt belts and NO ROLLBAR.
There are 2 flaws with that.
1. Its is NOT about the odds. :rolleyes: You either prapare for the worst or nothing @ all. ( didn't I mention this before ? ) Please stop with the half arsed Mickey Mouse BS... save yoour money elsewhere.
BTW [i]our[/i] cars love to be sideways, almost all the time. So how do you get a frontal collison, having a higher odd, than a spin or rollover ? ( I hope you don't say in traffic, on the street. )
2. Lets break this down, componet by component ( For what ever reason you want a HANS. Please don't say street racing... )
-You should already be wearing a helmet. ( the HANS clips to it. )
-You WILL need 3in. belts/harness. ( the HANS is straped down between your shoulders and the belts. )
-You wont be able to use a harness properly without a race seat.
-You would ( of course ) need to secure the belts... properly. On a rollcage. :banana:
- ... and yes, you should NOT plan on / or put a cage in car, if you are not going wear a helmet ALL the time. ( know some autocross miata guys that run rollbar's with no padding. No safety rules in AX, exept for helmets.He did not need to have padding. Abyway one dude spun, hit a curb & he hit his helmeted head on the bar... "rung his bell " purdy good. Couldnt walk or speak right until the next day. :eek: 2 day event, came back from the ER to watch the rest of the AX.)
So. Where does that put us ? Right back at the top of the list.
Please explain what component you could leave out and still be safe ?
Is this where you tell me a harness bar a correct substitute for a rolll bar/cage ?
Not if, but when you roll the car, and you are staped in nice and upright, to the seat, and the roof comes down / caves in. I don't think your harness bar with your HANS will do you any good... ( I don't even think you have the 500$ for one. Even if you do there is plenty of other stuff you still need to buy, like the above mentioned. )
To the guy telling everyone to start their own thread, and how this is not about safety... What is the title of this thread ?[/QUOTE]
First off, you seem to (think you) know a lot about safety equipment. Could you please let us know what your credentials are and what kind of testing you have done with all of this safety equipment?
And if you actually think that in a rollover accident you will be able to duck out of the way of a collapsing roof, you are nuts. Please explain to me how you would do that with all of the G Forces your body is experiencing! You are along for the ride. And I remember reading a safety seminar that stated the MOST COMMON injuries in rollovers are caused by arms and head exiting the vehicle, NOT the roof collapsing on the occupants. This probably explains why you will soon see 4 pt harnesses in all passenger vehicles (Ford and a few others are testing them) ...look at some of the Lotus Elise track cars...they come from the factory with 4 pt belts and NO ROLLBAR.
| Mykl | 04-04-2007 08:50 AM |
[QUOTE=dibblejr;17593023]Arrrrrg, I hate it when this kind of thing happens. You are right, somebody linked this thread to my Harness Bar review thread, I apologize for the confussion. With that I am going to unsubscribe to this thread and stay in my own.
Jay-R[/QUOTE]
:lol: So that's why I was a little puzzled by your responses! :D
It happens. :lol:
Jay-R[/QUOTE]
:lol: So that's why I was a little puzzled by your responses! :D
It happens. :lol:
| Mykl | 04-04-2007 08:58 AM |
[QUOTE=RS_Racer;17597503]First off, you seem to (think you) know a lot about safety equipment. Could you please let us know what your credentials are and what kind of testing you have done with all of this safety equipment?
And if you actually think that in a rollover accident you will be able to duck out of the way of a collapsing roof, you are nuts. Please explain to me how you would do that with all of the G Forces your body is experiencing! You are along for the ride. And I remember reading a safety seminar that stated the MOST COMMON injuries in rollovers are caused by arms and head exiting the vehicle, NOT the roof collapsing on the occupants. This probably explains why you will soon see 4 pt harnesses in all passenger vehicles (Ford and a few others are testing them) ...look at some of the Lotus Elise track cars...they come from the factory with 4 pt belts and NO ROLLBAR.[/QUOTE]
I'm starting to think that the "fall in to center" roll feature with the three point harness is a throwback to the day when car's weren't so good in a roll. To be honest, our Impreza's don't *need* a roll bar to be safe in a roll. I'm not saying that a roll bar wouldn't help, but the car can take a really hard hit and keep you safe without any help.
But at the same time, I don't necessarily trust the stock seat to not break and send you back against a harness bar. Maybe it's an unfounded fear, because I really don't know what kind of abuse the stock seat is capable of taking, but it seems like a reasonable concern.
And if you actually think that in a rollover accident you will be able to duck out of the way of a collapsing roof, you are nuts. Please explain to me how you would do that with all of the G Forces your body is experiencing! You are along for the ride. And I remember reading a safety seminar that stated the MOST COMMON injuries in rollovers are caused by arms and head exiting the vehicle, NOT the roof collapsing on the occupants. This probably explains why you will soon see 4 pt harnesses in all passenger vehicles (Ford and a few others are testing them) ...look at some of the Lotus Elise track cars...they come from the factory with 4 pt belts and NO ROLLBAR.[/QUOTE]
I'm starting to think that the "fall in to center" roll feature with the three point harness is a throwback to the day when car's weren't so good in a roll. To be honest, our Impreza's don't *need* a roll bar to be safe in a roll. I'm not saying that a roll bar wouldn't help, but the car can take a really hard hit and keep you safe without any help.
But at the same time, I don't necessarily trust the stock seat to not break and send you back against a harness bar. Maybe it's an unfounded fear, because I really don't know what kind of abuse the stock seat is capable of taking, but it seems like a reasonable concern.
| Calamity Jesus | 04-04-2007 09:14 AM |
[QUOTE=Mykl;17597989]I'm starting to think that the "fall in to center" roll feature with the three point harness is a throwback to the day when car's weren't so good in a roll. To be honest, our Impreza's don't *need* a roll bar to be safe in a roll. I'm not saying that a roll bar wouldn't help, but the car can take a really hard hit and keep you safe without any help.[/quote]While the 02-07 Imprezas have a slightly stronger chassis.. I wouldn't expect a different result than this 95-99 Legacy:
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2950350683586494851[/url] (warning, some heated language at the end)
[quote]But at the same time, I don't necessarily trust the stock seat to not break and send you back against a harness bar. Maybe it's an unfounded fear, because I really don't know what kind of abuse the stock seat is capable of taking, but it seems like a reasonable concern.[/QUOTE]Any seat with recline adjusters will fail in a severe enough rear-ending... I know that for sure. I've got a friend that's only alive today because the seats in his camry snapped when they got rear-ended while stopped, by an SUV doing 50. He and his wife ended up laying on their backs and the SUV ripped the greenhouse off the car as it went sailing over. Not a scratch on either of them.. just lots of back problems. Had a harness bar been there.. they would have surely been killed. But, that's a rare incident.. and not the sort of thing you can really plan for. Had it not been an SUV that was able to ride over the top of the car, they both would have probably lost their heads when the trunk caved in all the way.
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2950350683586494851[/url] (warning, some heated language at the end)
[quote]But at the same time, I don't necessarily trust the stock seat to not break and send you back against a harness bar. Maybe it's an unfounded fear, because I really don't know what kind of abuse the stock seat is capable of taking, but it seems like a reasonable concern.[/QUOTE]Any seat with recline adjusters will fail in a severe enough rear-ending... I know that for sure. I've got a friend that's only alive today because the seats in his camry snapped when they got rear-ended while stopped, by an SUV doing 50. He and his wife ended up laying on their backs and the SUV ripped the greenhouse off the car as it went sailing over. Not a scratch on either of them.. just lots of back problems. Had a harness bar been there.. they would have surely been killed. But, that's a rare incident.. and not the sort of thing you can really plan for. Had it not been an SUV that was able to ride over the top of the car, they both would have probably lost their heads when the trunk caved in all the way.
| Butt Dyno | 04-04-2007 09:22 AM |
[QUOTE=Beaverboy;17598094]While the 02-07 Imprezas have a slightly stronger chassis.. I wouldn't expect a different result than this 95-99 Legacy:
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2950350683586494851[/url] (warning, some heated language at the end)[/QUOTE]
[quote=Google Video] Driver is mad after rolling his Porsche.[/quote]
Worst caption ever.
edit: them, not you
[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2950350683586494851[/url] (warning, some heated language at the end)[/QUOTE]
[quote=Google Video] Driver is mad after rolling his Porsche.[/quote]
Worst caption ever.
edit: them, not you
| RS_Racer | 04-04-2007 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE=Beaverboy;17598094]Any seat with recline adjusters will fail in a severe enough rear-ending... I know that for sure. I've got a friend that's only alive today because the seats in his camry snapped when they got rear-ended while stopped, by an SUV doing 50. He and his wife ended up laying on their backs and the SUV ripped the greenhouse off the car as it went sailing over. Not a scratch on either of them.. just lots of back problems. Had a harness bar been there.. they would have surely been killed. But, that's a rare incident.. and not the sort of thing you can really plan for. Had it not been an SUV that was able to ride over the top of the car, they both would have probably lost their heads when the trunk caved in all the way.[/QUOTE]
No matter what safety devices you have in your car, there are always going to be situations where they could actually do more harm than good. martinus seems to be advocating rollbars in cars that are taken to the track. I used to have one in my daily driver and did not really like the idea of that rollbar behind my head on my daily commute to work. In the scenario you describe above with your friend, what do you think could have happened if he would have had a rollbar? That SUV could have pushed it forward into the occupants. Also, I bet rollbars could cause headaches for rescuers if you need to be extracated from the car in a bad accident.
Much to the dismay of martinus, I still would prefer the Schroth quick fit harness that is designed for use with a HANS device and no rollbar. That way, on the street (where my car sees the most action), I don't have a rollbar in there. And on the track, I've got protection for frontal impacts, which I think are the most common type of accident. Sure I could roll the car, but I'd take my chances on that since the likelihood is smaller...and even in a rollover, the roof woudln't necessarily collopse.
No matter what safety devices you have in your car, there are always going to be situations where they could actually do more harm than good. martinus seems to be advocating rollbars in cars that are taken to the track. I used to have one in my daily driver and did not really like the idea of that rollbar behind my head on my daily commute to work. In the scenario you describe above with your friend, what do you think could have happened if he would have had a rollbar? That SUV could have pushed it forward into the occupants. Also, I bet rollbars could cause headaches for rescuers if you need to be extracated from the car in a bad accident.
Much to the dismay of martinus, I still would prefer the Schroth quick fit harness that is designed for use with a HANS device and no rollbar. That way, on the street (where my car sees the most action), I don't have a rollbar in there. And on the track, I've got protection for frontal impacts, which I think are the most common type of accident. Sure I could roll the car, but I'd take my chances on that since the likelihood is smaller...and even in a rollover, the roof woudln't necessarily collopse.
| remowgn | 04-04-2007 11:26 AM |
[QUOTE=RS_Racer;17599225]
Much to the dismay of martinus, I still would prefer the Schroth quick fit harness that is designed for use with a HANS device and no rollbar. That way, on the street (where my car sees the most action), I don't have a rollbar in there. And on the track, I've got protection for frontal impacts, which I think are the most common type of accident. Sure I could roll the car, but I'd take my chances on that since the likelihood is smaller...and even in a rollover, the roof woudln't necessarily collopse.[/QUOTE]
One of the other neat things about schroth's harnesses is that the right strap (for the driver) is designed to "give" a bit under impact, causing the body to rotate slightly. You can see that there's a little black box over the strap... this is covering an area that is folded over and stitched in such a way that it will only come loose under a pretty hard hit. This helps prevent you from submarining under the belt in an impact. They're truly designed to be daily driven. I have the "3 point" ones in my VW, mounted to the rear seat upper seatbelt point. It's the best compromise, IMHO, since it stays above my shoulders the whole time.
Much to the dismay of martinus, I still would prefer the Schroth quick fit harness that is designed for use with a HANS device and no rollbar. That way, on the street (where my car sees the most action), I don't have a rollbar in there. And on the track, I've got protection for frontal impacts, which I think are the most common type of accident. Sure I could roll the car, but I'd take my chances on that since the likelihood is smaller...and even in a rollover, the roof woudln't necessarily collopse.[/QUOTE]
One of the other neat things about schroth's harnesses is that the right strap (for the driver) is designed to "give" a bit under impact, causing the body to rotate slightly. You can see that there's a little black box over the strap... this is covering an area that is folded over and stitched in such a way that it will only come loose under a pretty hard hit. This helps prevent you from submarining under the belt in an impact. They're truly designed to be daily driven. I have the "3 point" ones in my VW, mounted to the rear seat upper seatbelt point. It's the best compromise, IMHO, since it stays above my shoulders the whole time.
| dibblejr | 04-04-2007 11:30 AM |
Yep, some of this started on my Ebay harness bar review writeup and someone jumped over to this thread.
I thought why does everyone keep posting this safety stuff on my review thread.
It didnt hit me until martinus typed [COLOR="Red"][B]To the guy telling everyone to start their own thread, and how this is not about safety... What is the title of this thread ?[/B][/COLOR]:lol: I checked the title and said whet to hech.
All is well. now.
Jay-R:)
[QUOTE=Mykl;17597945]:lol: So that's why I was a little puzzled by your responses! :D
It happens. :lol:[/QUOTE]
I thought why does everyone keep posting this safety stuff on my review thread.
It didnt hit me until martinus typed [COLOR="Red"][B]To the guy telling everyone to start their own thread, and how this is not about safety... What is the title of this thread ?[/B][/COLOR]:lol: I checked the title and said whet to hech.
All is well. now.
Jay-R:)
[QUOTE=Mykl;17597945]:lol: So that's why I was a little puzzled by your responses! :D
It happens. :lol:[/QUOTE]
| martinus | 05-24-2007 10:58 PM |
Since, this will be here for all eternity.
If anyone has any safety questions, please go to an actual motorsport event ( an autocross or maybe even a road race @ your local race track. Drag racing DOES NOT, count. ), and atleast look around... if you are feeling brave maybe even ask some of your questions. ( perfebly from a safety stuward, even a corner worker will do... ) They will be happy to "set you straight".
Al this interweb page thing does nothing, but spread miss-information & get people pissed off @ each other.
If anyone has any safety questions, please go to an actual motorsport event ( an autocross or maybe even a road race @ your local race track. Drag racing DOES NOT, count. ), and atleast look around... if you are feeling brave maybe even ask some of your questions. ( perfebly from a safety stuward, even a corner worker will do... ) They will be happy to "set you straight".
Al this interweb page thing does nothing, but spread miss-information & get people pissed off @ each other.
| speedblind | 05-25-2007 12:55 PM |
I'd go straight to the safety steward or sanctioning body - at my local track events, the corner workers are often enthusiasts/track guys that may or may not be able to speak authoritatively on the subject...I should know, as I've worked corner before. :) Also, I've seen plenty of people pass tech with harnesses bolted every which way - also not the best example to learn from.
All that said, I also have a question: is it considered "safe" to add an aftermarket seat and still use the 3-point OEM seatbelts? My question would apply to the reclinining type (Recaro Speed, for instance) and the fixed back type (MOMO Start/others)? I'm wondering this because I'm building an E30 up for 80% track use/20% street use and would like a bit more supportive seats than the stock sport seats. The car will eventually get a cage, though most likely not for a year or so, at which point I'll add the harnesses, etc.
All that said, I also have a question: is it considered "safe" to add an aftermarket seat and still use the 3-point OEM seatbelts? My question would apply to the reclinining type (Recaro Speed, for instance) and the fixed back type (MOMO Start/others)? I'm wondering this because I'm building an E30 up for 80% track use/20% street use and would like a bit more supportive seats than the stock sport seats. The car will eventually get a cage, though most likely not for a year or so, at which point I'll add the harnesses, etc.
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