| BriDrive | 05-25-2004 12:02 PM |
Look, somehow.....through my comments I suppose, I have been dragged into the unenviable position of pseudo mouthpiece for ScuderiaFerrari............not my intent, not my concern...I am just an F1 fan like the rest of you..................
With that said, OnTheGas, are you saying, based on some post-race pass-for-positon data some guy has posted, that you are gonna make the leap and correlate that and assume you knew all the fuel-on-boards, tires and pit stategy for JT's Renault, JB's Honda, the RB Ferrari and the MS Ferrari and suggest that Williams had decided JPM should #1, pass MS and then pass him again for P3 ???????
:lol:
There were 32 laps remaining when the incident happened....yes MS would have pitted somewhere between then and the finish, for a total cost of approximately 26 seconds total pittime.....he's still 50 seconds short..................
Bold Strategy Indeed Williams & OnTheGas.............Bravo
BTW: fastest lap JPM = 1:15.395
fastest lap MS = 1:14.439
BriDrive
With that said, OnTheGas, are you saying, based on some post-race pass-for-positon data some guy has posted, that you are gonna make the leap and correlate that and assume you knew all the fuel-on-boards, tires and pit stategy for JT's Renault, JB's Honda, the RB Ferrari and the MS Ferrari and suggest that Williams had decided JPM should #1, pass MS and then pass him again for P3 ???????
:lol:
There were 32 laps remaining when the incident happened....yes MS would have pitted somewhere between then and the finish, for a total cost of approximately 26 seconds total pittime.....he's still 50 seconds short..................
Bold Strategy Indeed Williams & OnTheGas.............Bravo
BTW: fastest lap JPM = 1:15.395
fastest lap MS = 1:14.439
BriDrive
| artkevin | 05-25-2004 12:52 PM |
I love heated debates! :devil:
| Snowphun | 05-25-2004 02:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive[/i]
[B]
With that said, OnTheGas, are you saying, based on some post-race pass-for-positon data some guy has posted, that you are gonna make the leap and correlate that and assume you knew all the fuel-on-boards, tires and pit stategy for JT's Renault, JB's Honda, the RB Ferrari and the MS Ferrari and suggest that Williams had decided JPM should #1, pass MS and then pass him again for P3 ???????
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't read that in his post at all. I don't think BMW thought JPM could win the race, but getting ahead of MS potentially changes the outcome of the race, and was something worth fighting for IMO (hope that's OK ;) ).
[B]
With that said, OnTheGas, are you saying, based on some post-race pass-for-positon data some guy has posted, that you are gonna make the leap and correlate that and assume you knew all the fuel-on-boards, tires and pit stategy for JT's Renault, JB's Honda, the RB Ferrari and the MS Ferrari and suggest that Williams had decided JPM should #1, pass MS and then pass him again for P3 ???????
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't read that in his post at all. I don't think BMW thought JPM could win the race, but getting ahead of MS potentially changes the outcome of the race, and was something worth fighting for IMO (hope that's OK ;) ).
| Snowphun | 05-25-2004 02:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas[/i]
[B] So Montoya and Williams were fairly confident that he could give Michael a pretty hard go when the green flag dropped, and perhaps succeed. When they were in the tunnel, Montoya knew that the pace car was preparing to pull off, and they would be green at the S/F line.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What are the rules with taking back a position? If MS were about to lap JPM, JPM is blue flagged and expected to give plenty of room. So if he battles MS and gets ahead (still almost a lap down), I imagine he'd need to make some space quickly or risk getting a black flag for blocking.
Would have been interesting to watch.
[B] So Montoya and Williams were fairly confident that he could give Michael a pretty hard go when the green flag dropped, and perhaps succeed. When they were in the tunnel, Montoya knew that the pace car was preparing to pull off, and they would be green at the S/F line.
[/B][/QUOTE]
What are the rules with taking back a position? If MS were about to lap JPM, JPM is blue flagged and expected to give plenty of room. So if he battles MS and gets ahead (still almost a lap down), I imagine he'd need to make some space quickly or risk getting a black flag for blocking.
Would have been interesting to watch.
| Dr. WOT | 05-25-2004 03:58 PM |
I've seen drivers unlap themselves in F1, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
OTG's theory is commendable, but I think a bit of a reach. BriDrive is right, JPM's best lap time was well behind MS's best. Whatever advantage might have been gained by the Michelin's first lap speed would have been mitigated by the Williams being on full tanks, while the Ferrari was running relativly light.
Apparently the Williams team told JPM to try and unlap himself. I have no problem with him trying, but to suggest that he was positioning himself for that with half a lap under the pace car still remaining is simply ridiculous. Close the gap at La Rascasse, not in the tunnel.
OTG's theory is commendable, but I think a bit of a reach. BriDrive is right, JPM's best lap time was well behind MS's best. Whatever advantage might have been gained by the Michelin's first lap speed would have been mitigated by the Williams being on full tanks, while the Ferrari was running relativly light.
Apparently the Williams team told JPM to try and unlap himself. I have no problem with him trying, but to suggest that he was positioning himself for that with half a lap under the pace car still remaining is simply ridiculous. Close the gap at La Rascasse, not in the tunnel.
| StuBeck | 05-25-2004 04:07 PM |
I think that BMW's idea about passing Schumacher was that if he did this, then there was another caution period, Schumacher would have to pit then. Then he could actually pass him for 3rd.
Montoya has always been close to Schumacher during safety car periods. His experience from CART tells him he doesn't have to do the insane stop and go that Schumacher does, and thus JPM wants to keep him from doing that.
Montoya has always been close to Schumacher during safety car periods. His experience from CART tells him he doesn't have to do the insane stop and go that Schumacher does, and thus JPM wants to keep him from doing that.
| OnTheGas | 05-25-2004 05:30 PM |
Why Would Juan Pass Michael?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive [/i]
[B]...OnTheGas, are you saying, based on some post-race pass-for-positon data some guy has posted, that you are gonna make the leap and correlate that and assume you knew all the fuel-on-boards, tires and pit stategy for JT's Renault, JB's Honda, the RB Ferrari and the MS Ferrari and suggest that Williams had decided JPM should #1, pass MS and then pass him again for P3 ???????[/B][/QUOTE]Obviously Juan was not going to pass Michael for 3rd, and I was not saying that.
But otherwise you are correct, Juan was going to try to pass Michael at or after the green.
And you're correct to question where in the world I would get that info.
First, the guy that posts the on-track pass for position report after each race is just a regular joe race fan like you and me. His method for counting the on track passes for positions is by studying lapcharts of the races. You, or I, or any racefan can do the same thing. He uses the lap charts at [URL=http://www.fia.com/]FIA.com[/URL], and also at a paid subscription site, [URL=http://www.forix.com/]FORIX.com[/URL]. It is best to read his own explanation, which is part of his post. [URL=http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.autos.sport.f1.moderated&safe=off&selm=2he569Fa2dm7U3%40uni-berlin.de]Google Groups web display of Brian Lawrences' Overtaking Statistics at Monte Carlo, 2004[/URL]. In that news group, people will help him by spotting errors, and reporting them.
And the point of showing you that is that Juan had somehow been able to pass for position on that little track twice already at that point. So he knew it is possible.
Regarding my source of the fuel and pit strategies, I was looking at lapcharts at [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/]AtlasF1[/URL] (a pay webzine), and during the race I had been following the race live at Bernie's official site (free thank gawd), [URL=http://www.formula1.com/]Formula1[/URL] . At Bernie's Forumula1 site, they show pretty much the same info that FIA is feeding to the teams in the paddock (live sector and laptimes, live weather info, live graphical lapchart, etc.).
So from those sources it is known that:[list][*]Button, Trulli, and Montoya had all dived into the pits for fuel during the safety car period.[*]Michael and Rubens both stayed out.[*]Rubens said afterwards in the winners press conference that he did not pit during the safety car period because he was fat with fuel. He was right. Prior to the safety car, he pitted once on lap 20. He did not pit again until 10 laps after the safety car on lap 55.[*]Michael's only pit stop was later than Rubens' on lap 26.[/list]And I know from history that Ross Brawn is one of the smartest race strategist on the paddock wall, and he did not bring Michael in.
So yes, I am speculating, based upon the fuel strategy run on Barrichello's car, based upon Michael pitting after Rubens, that Michael was fat with fuel, and on cold b'stones. I think that both Juan and Williams speculated this, also.
[b]But![/b] ...you may say, [b]so what![/b] What did Juan have to gain by jumping past Michael on the green? As you pointed out, Juan was not gonna be able to run at the pace of Michael, Jenson, and Jarno!
So we can only speculate, but I can think of 2 answers.
One possible answer is that Juan and Williams were hungry to eat Rubens for the (then) 4th position. Remember that Rubens made an interesting comment in the winners press conference, [QUOTE][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=154153][i]Rubens said[/i][/URL]
[b]I must be honest, I was very lucky today, just to finish the race, because there was a point in the race when I started to lock the wheels and I felt that something had happened to the rear suspension and so when the safety car came out, I had the chance to go slowly beside the pit wall to see if they (the mechanics) could see something because I was hitting the ground quite badly and I was locking the wheels as if the car wasn't behaving quite right from left to right. So it was just a question of going round and round just to finish the race really. There was no point in pushing because something must have broken on the car.[/b][/QUOTE]
So Juan might have noticed Rubens suspension problem earlier in the race. He might have figured, (incorrectly I believe, because Rubens was able to turn OK laptimes despite the problem), that they could hunt Rubens down, and pass him again for position.
Another possible explanation is that Juan was upset because he had been pushing Heidfeld, and da Matta very hard so that he did not get lapped. Juan had passed Heidfeld for position on the track. Then when the safety car came out, Juan was able pass da Matta in the pitstops. So if it were not for Michael's Ferrari which stayed out, Juan would have slotted up in 5th on the lead lap behind Rubens Ferrari. But instead, Juan was suddenly a lap down, and probably very frustrated. So with Juan's experience of pace car starts in CART, and on-track passes earlier in the race, etc., he may have been itching to pull the trigger, and pass Michael right away on the green. And perhaps he thought that by filling Michael's mirrors he would intimidate him into a mistake.
<editted numerous typos, etc.>
[B]...OnTheGas, are you saying, based on some post-race pass-for-positon data some guy has posted, that you are gonna make the leap and correlate that and assume you knew all the fuel-on-boards, tires and pit stategy for JT's Renault, JB's Honda, the RB Ferrari and the MS Ferrari and suggest that Williams had decided JPM should #1, pass MS and then pass him again for P3 ???????[/B][/QUOTE]Obviously Juan was not going to pass Michael for 3rd, and I was not saying that.
But otherwise you are correct, Juan was going to try to pass Michael at or after the green.
And you're correct to question where in the world I would get that info.
First, the guy that posts the on-track pass for position report after each race is just a regular joe race fan like you and me. His method for counting the on track passes for positions is by studying lapcharts of the races. You, or I, or any racefan can do the same thing. He uses the lap charts at [URL=http://www.fia.com/]FIA.com[/URL], and also at a paid subscription site, [URL=http://www.forix.com/]FORIX.com[/URL]. It is best to read his own explanation, which is part of his post. [URL=http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.autos.sport.f1.moderated&safe=off&selm=2he569Fa2dm7U3%40uni-berlin.de]Google Groups web display of Brian Lawrences' Overtaking Statistics at Monte Carlo, 2004[/URL]. In that news group, people will help him by spotting errors, and reporting them.
And the point of showing you that is that Juan had somehow been able to pass for position on that little track twice already at that point. So he knew it is possible.
Regarding my source of the fuel and pit strategies, I was looking at lapcharts at [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/]AtlasF1[/URL] (a pay webzine), and during the race I had been following the race live at Bernie's official site (free thank gawd), [URL=http://www.formula1.com/]Formula1[/URL] . At Bernie's Forumula1 site, they show pretty much the same info that FIA is feeding to the teams in the paddock (live sector and laptimes, live weather info, live graphical lapchart, etc.).
So from those sources it is known that:[list][*]Button, Trulli, and Montoya had all dived into the pits for fuel during the safety car period.[*]Michael and Rubens both stayed out.[*]Rubens said afterwards in the winners press conference that he did not pit during the safety car period because he was fat with fuel. He was right. Prior to the safety car, he pitted once on lap 20. He did not pit again until 10 laps after the safety car on lap 55.[*]Michael's only pit stop was later than Rubens' on lap 26.[/list]And I know from history that Ross Brawn is one of the smartest race strategist on the paddock wall, and he did not bring Michael in.
So yes, I am speculating, based upon the fuel strategy run on Barrichello's car, based upon Michael pitting after Rubens, that Michael was fat with fuel, and on cold b'stones. I think that both Juan and Williams speculated this, also.
[b]But![/b] ...you may say, [b]so what![/b] What did Juan have to gain by jumping past Michael on the green? As you pointed out, Juan was not gonna be able to run at the pace of Michael, Jenson, and Jarno!
So we can only speculate, but I can think of 2 answers.
One possible answer is that Juan and Williams were hungry to eat Rubens for the (then) 4th position. Remember that Rubens made an interesting comment in the winners press conference, [QUOTE][URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=154153][i]Rubens said[/i][/URL]
[b]I must be honest, I was very lucky today, just to finish the race, because there was a point in the race when I started to lock the wheels and I felt that something had happened to the rear suspension and so when the safety car came out, I had the chance to go slowly beside the pit wall to see if they (the mechanics) could see something because I was hitting the ground quite badly and I was locking the wheels as if the car wasn't behaving quite right from left to right. So it was just a question of going round and round just to finish the race really. There was no point in pushing because something must have broken on the car.[/b][/QUOTE]
So Juan might have noticed Rubens suspension problem earlier in the race. He might have figured, (incorrectly I believe, because Rubens was able to turn OK laptimes despite the problem), that they could hunt Rubens down, and pass him again for position.
Another possible explanation is that Juan was upset because he had been pushing Heidfeld, and da Matta very hard so that he did not get lapped. Juan had passed Heidfeld for position on the track. Then when the safety car came out, Juan was able pass da Matta in the pitstops. So if it were not for Michael's Ferrari which stayed out, Juan would have slotted up in 5th on the lead lap behind Rubens Ferrari. But instead, Juan was suddenly a lap down, and probably very frustrated. So with Juan's experience of pace car starts in CART, and on-track passes earlier in the race, etc., he may have been itching to pull the trigger, and pass Michael right away on the green. And perhaps he thought that by filling Michael's mirrors he would intimidate him into a mistake.
<editted numerous typos, etc.>
| OnTheGas | 05-25-2004 05:37 PM |
Unlapping Oneself
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Snowphun [/i]
[B]What are the rules with taking back a position?[/B][/QUOTE]It is legal.
But if Michael (or any driver) began to lap faster, and then put themselves in a position to lap Juan, then he would need to allow the faster, lapping car to safely pass soon, or receive the da Matta sin bin drive thru penalty.
:)
[B]What are the rules with taking back a position?[/B][/QUOTE]It is legal.
But if Michael (or any driver) began to lap faster, and then put themselves in a position to lap Juan, then he would need to allow the faster, lapping car to safely pass soon, or receive the da Matta sin bin drive thru penalty.
:)
| OnTheGas | 05-29-2004 11:04 AM |
Why Didn't Michael Pit Under The Safety Car?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas [/i]
[B]And I know from history that Ross Brawn is one of the smartest race strategist on the paddock wall, and he did not bring Michael in.[/B][/QUOTE][quote][i]Ross Brawn at the [URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=154687&FS=F1/]Euro GP's Friday Press Conference[/URL][/i]
[b]We had 17 laps of fuel in the car at Monaco and that gave us quite a good opportunity to have a go at winning the race.
...the numbers are that he had about 15 laps less fuel than Jarno had, which, around there is worth six tenths of a second, so he would have been six tenths of a second faster because he had less fuel. He did a lap which was four tenths of a second faster than Jarno at the end of his first stint, so potentially the car was four tenths of a second faster, which is a total of one second per lap. That makes 17 seconds over 17 laps, the Monaco pitlane is 13 seconds long and we had a very short fuel stop which, in fact, would have been controlled by the tyres, which makes 17 seconds, which means we had a chance of winning the race.[/b][/quote]It would have been a helluva entertaining show!
This was a good press conference, btw! Other interesting things were discussed as well...
[B]And I know from history that Ross Brawn is one of the smartest race strategist on the paddock wall, and he did not bring Michael in.[/B][/QUOTE][quote][i]Ross Brawn at the [URL=http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=154687&FS=F1/]Euro GP's Friday Press Conference[/URL][/i]
[b]We had 17 laps of fuel in the car at Monaco and that gave us quite a good opportunity to have a go at winning the race.
...the numbers are that he had about 15 laps less fuel than Jarno had, which, around there is worth six tenths of a second, so he would have been six tenths of a second faster because he had less fuel. He did a lap which was four tenths of a second faster than Jarno at the end of his first stint, so potentially the car was four tenths of a second faster, which is a total of one second per lap. That makes 17 seconds over 17 laps, the Monaco pitlane is 13 seconds long and we had a very short fuel stop which, in fact, would have been controlled by the tyres, which makes 17 seconds, which means we had a chance of winning the race.[/b][/quote]It would have been a helluva entertaining show!
This was a good press conference, btw! Other interesting things were discussed as well...
| bal00 | 05-31-2004 05:47 PM |
I know it's a bit late meanwhile, but this unlapping argument is flawed for 3 reasons.
a) Montoya's lap times and him being one full lap behind MS imply that he was quite a bit slower, so Montoya unlapping himself was not very likelynor reasonable.
b) The incident was in the tunnel, which means that at safety car speeds there was around a minute left until the restart. He could have kept a 1000ft distance to MS and still be on his rear wheel at the finish line. The distance between him and MS in the tunnel (or the lack of it) had absolutely no relevance for an unlapping maneuver.
c) Staying close to the leader is the exact opposite of what the guy in second needs to do to pass him on a flying restart. If you stay close to the leader he'll just brake in front of the finish line, you break harder to avoid passing him before the line, he gets on the throttle and is gone.
If you're in second and want to win a flying restart, you keep a reasonable distance so you can punch it before the leader does.
I'm not judging who is at fault, but unlapping is no explanation for Montoya being very close to MS.
a) Montoya's lap times and him being one full lap behind MS imply that he was quite a bit slower, so Montoya unlapping himself was not very likelynor reasonable.
b) The incident was in the tunnel, which means that at safety car speeds there was around a minute left until the restart. He could have kept a 1000ft distance to MS and still be on his rear wheel at the finish line. The distance between him and MS in the tunnel (or the lack of it) had absolutely no relevance for an unlapping maneuver.
c) Staying close to the leader is the exact opposite of what the guy in second needs to do to pass him on a flying restart. If you stay close to the leader he'll just brake in front of the finish line, you break harder to avoid passing him before the line, he gets on the throttle and is gone.
If you're in second and want to win a flying restart, you keep a reasonable distance so you can punch it before the leader does.
I'm not judging who is at fault, but unlapping is no explanation for Montoya being very close to MS.
| shrieden | 05-31-2004 11:03 PM |
Anybody remember a young Eddie Irvine, in his first race in F1 getting lapped by Senna, then displayed his driving abilities by unlapping himself, only to be rewarded by Senna's fist in his face after the race :lol: :lol:
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