| chimchimm5 | 02-04-2007 07:56 PM |
Scandinavian flick in a grip situation (long travel suspension)
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Driving technique question: Is this a good strategy to employ?
I'm trying to improve the monkey behind the wheel first, so I'm still on stock suspension (springs/struts). As a result, I have quite a bit of travel and body roll when establishing a set in a turn. Because the long travel, "low" dampening rate, and slow rate of weight transfer, it seems like it takes a long time to establish the set.
Rather than go from straight to turn in directly, I found that doing a mini Scandinavian flick just before turn in to get weight to start moving outside makes the weight transfer happen quicker. Since it's a light feint (not the full feint that gets the tires loose) the weight gets transfered and a faster turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, but I don't know if it's "faster".
Please show me the err of my ways or whatnot.
I'm trying to improve the monkey behind the wheel first, so I'm still on stock suspension (springs/struts). As a result, I have quite a bit of travel and body roll when establishing a set in a turn. Because the long travel, "low" dampening rate, and slow rate of weight transfer, it seems like it takes a long time to establish the set.
Rather than go from straight to turn in directly, I found that doing a mini Scandinavian flick just before turn in to get weight to start moving outside makes the weight transfer happen quicker. Since it's a light feint (not the full feint that gets the tires loose) the weight gets transfered and a faster turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, but I don't know if it's "faster".
Please show me the err of my ways or whatnot.
| greg donovan | 02-04-2007 08:16 PM |
i know that was the way that some testers got some pretty fast laps out of the Evos so it isnt totally off base.
but i dont autocross or run at track days so what the hell do i know?
but i dont autocross or run at track days so what the hell do i know?
| Howl | 02-04-2007 09:19 PM |
There's a point at which sliding sideways becomes faster than just driving around the corner. That point depends on the surface, the car's set up and the driver's ability.
I'm not a expert rally driver, but my line of thinking is regardless of whether you're driving straight around a corner or sliding sideways you want to follow almost the same line. That is, you want to start near the outside, cut across and hit the apex and then use as much of the road as possible on the exit. If you're not using all the road then you could have gone around the corner with more speed. Having observed a number of stage rally drivers I've noticed the less experienced ones tend to try sliding too much and end up not carrying enough speed through the corner, while the more experienced drivers do a lot less sliding and use the whole road.
This is a video I shot of one corner at last year's Tall Pines. The cars have been reseeded so they are pretty much in order of fastest to slowest. Note how the faster cars use all the road, but as you progress through the order they start using less and less of the road at the exit (they are on the right side of the road instead of the left side of the road).
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt90N5FxcpI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt90N5FxcpI[/URL]
Translating that to a tarmac situation is difficult because for a car set up for track events (very stiff suspension) the point where it's faster to slide should never be reached. But for a car with a soft suspension and slippery tires it just might.
I'm not a expert rally driver, but my line of thinking is regardless of whether you're driving straight around a corner or sliding sideways you want to follow almost the same line. That is, you want to start near the outside, cut across and hit the apex and then use as much of the road as possible on the exit. If you're not using all the road then you could have gone around the corner with more speed. Having observed a number of stage rally drivers I've noticed the less experienced ones tend to try sliding too much and end up not carrying enough speed through the corner, while the more experienced drivers do a lot less sliding and use the whole road.
This is a video I shot of one corner at last year's Tall Pines. The cars have been reseeded so they are pretty much in order of fastest to slowest. Note how the faster cars use all the road, but as you progress through the order they start using less and less of the road at the exit (they are on the right side of the road instead of the left side of the road).
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt90N5FxcpI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt90N5FxcpI[/URL]
Translating that to a tarmac situation is difficult because for a car set up for track events (very stiff suspension) the point where it's faster to slide should never be reached. But for a car with a soft suspension and slippery tires it just might.
| RB5 Clone | 02-04-2007 10:40 PM |
if you're talking low-grip situation like gravel or snow, "faster" is a distinctly relative term. you need to get the weight transfer, but also have to realize that when grip is limited, things happen slowly. you need to start turning way before the turn to give the car time to settle, xfer the weight, let the outside bite, and start to turn in.
it takes time, patience and faith. people often try to rush things when it's slippry, and just end up with too much steering angle and worsening understeer. patience, grasshoppa...the car WILL turn in, IF you just start it early and give things time to develop.
that's why those faster cars in the Tall Pines vid are using the whole road...they are turning in super early, the car is drifting smoothly, and they end up taking what road racers woulld call a "wider, slower" line, but since it takes more time for things to happen on gravel or snow, they are carrying more speed than if you tried to jam the car into a tighter "faster" line.
just back from teaching a winter course at Team O'neil, and this "be patient" business was the mantra of the weekend.
Dave G
it takes time, patience and faith. people often try to rush things when it's slippry, and just end up with too much steering angle and worsening understeer. patience, grasshoppa...the car WILL turn in, IF you just start it early and give things time to develop.
that's why those faster cars in the Tall Pines vid are using the whole road...they are turning in super early, the car is drifting smoothly, and they end up taking what road racers woulld call a "wider, slower" line, but since it takes more time for things to happen on gravel or snow, they are carrying more speed than if you tried to jam the car into a tighter "faster" line.
just back from teaching a winter course at Team O'neil, and this "be patient" business was the mantra of the weekend.
Dave G
| goto_racing | 02-05-2007 12:18 AM |
Of course it's personal preference, and the AWD cars are different animals on road courses than other cars, but I think it is a technical no-no. I think any road race instructor will tell you that good, crisp turn ins are good, but I don't think they would have to take it to the level of a feint.
Try a little trail braking. Done right it gives you alot of front download on turn in, and allows you to carry more speed to the apex. I can't speak for autoX, but if your goals are going faster on a road course, I wouldn't spend to much time practicing your flick. Plenty of other techniques to learn that will get you alot farther.
Chris Lock
Try a little trail braking. Done right it gives you alot of front download on turn in, and allows you to carry more speed to the apex. I can't speak for autoX, but if your goals are going faster on a road course, I wouldn't spend to much time practicing your flick. Plenty of other techniques to learn that will get you alot farther.
Chris Lock
| ANZAC_1915 | 02-05-2007 12:29 AM |
I think what you're doing is getting it to "set" slightly earlier. I think this is ok providing you a) don't scrub speed and b) are right on the throttle as soon as it is set.
I notice I drive FWD cars this way....
Also, this isn't even a feint or a flick --- you'd be just turning in a little further to get it set then getting the steering back on line and then squeezing the gas.
I notice I drive FWD cars this way....
Also, this isn't even a feint or a flick --- you'd be just turning in a little further to get it set then getting the steering back on line and then squeezing the gas.
| chimchimm5 | 02-05-2007 02:35 AM |
Thanks for all the responses. Please not the title of the thread is "in a [B]grip [/B]situation", so I'm not referring to low grip environments.
I do do the trail brake, in fact, I found it better to make sure you are braking hard at turn in; even if this means when you start the braking too early and you need to come off it a bit and then get back on. The hard braking dives the nose. If I transition into the turn in with the nose diving at the same amount that will be observed in the set, then it's definitely smoother. In this case, the outside front wheel does not experience much compression/decompression and all the weight transfer now occurs from the front inner wheel to the rear outer wheel. This is tremendously smoother than not braking hard enough at turn in.
However, if I add this "mini flick" to the whole process, it goes even smoother! Now, since I've induced a lateral shift of weight, I've essentially helped the weight transfer from the front inner to the rear outer.
I would expect that stiffer suspension don't need the flick because the lateral transition is so short it's essentially insignificant.
I do do the trail brake, in fact, I found it better to make sure you are braking hard at turn in; even if this means when you start the braking too early and you need to come off it a bit and then get back on. The hard braking dives the nose. If I transition into the turn in with the nose diving at the same amount that will be observed in the set, then it's definitely smoother. In this case, the outside front wheel does not experience much compression/decompression and all the weight transfer now occurs from the front inner wheel to the rear outer wheel. This is tremendously smoother than not braking hard enough at turn in.
However, if I add this "mini flick" to the whole process, it goes even smoother! Now, since I've induced a lateral shift of weight, I've essentially helped the weight transfer from the front inner to the rear outer.
I would expect that stiffer suspension don't need the flick because the lateral transition is so short it's essentially insignificant.
| KC | 02-05-2007 08:05 AM |
What type of sport are you participating in/practicing this technique?
The only way to see if it truly is faster with this method is to get a datalogger in your car and measure the segment times trying different ways (this assumes you're a good enough of a driver to repeat the motions without much difference between them... e.g. Do a few flicks in a row around the same corner, and then a few grips in the same corner... not just one of flicks and one of grip.)
The data that I have seen from dataloggers is that a Scandinavian flick, [I]on an auto-x course[/I], *is* the slow way to do things. It may *feel* smoother (and have more style points), but you're throwing away time. Here's why: in a flick, no matter how small it is, means you have to turn away from the apex...and at that, upset the balance of the car. Any time turned away from an apex is time thrown out the window. You want to find the shortest line possible without giving up too much time braking, or slowing. Case in point: [QUOTE]This is tremendously smoother than not braking hard enough at turn in.[/QUOTE]You may be braking too much already. Has anyone ridden with you in your car, or even driven it to really determine if that is the case?
On top of that, if you can't repeat it time after time down to the same foot, it introduces more margin for error in a turn if you should 'be off' before, or in, the turn, which would lead to more time thrown away.
Have you taken any schools? Like the Evolution School? ([url]http://www.autocross.com/evolution[/url]) They can really show you the difference and some of the schools have segment times that can show you the differences between what you're trying to do.
--kC
The only way to see if it truly is faster with this method is to get a datalogger in your car and measure the segment times trying different ways (this assumes you're a good enough of a driver to repeat the motions without much difference between them... e.g. Do a few flicks in a row around the same corner, and then a few grips in the same corner... not just one of flicks and one of grip.)
The data that I have seen from dataloggers is that a Scandinavian flick, [I]on an auto-x course[/I], *is* the slow way to do things. It may *feel* smoother (and have more style points), but you're throwing away time. Here's why: in a flick, no matter how small it is, means you have to turn away from the apex...and at that, upset the balance of the car. Any time turned away from an apex is time thrown out the window. You want to find the shortest line possible without giving up too much time braking, or slowing. Case in point: [QUOTE]This is tremendously smoother than not braking hard enough at turn in.[/QUOTE]You may be braking too much already. Has anyone ridden with you in your car, or even driven it to really determine if that is the case?
On top of that, if you can't repeat it time after time down to the same foot, it introduces more margin for error in a turn if you should 'be off' before, or in, the turn, which would lead to more time thrown away.
Have you taken any schools? Like the Evolution School? ([url]http://www.autocross.com/evolution[/url]) They can really show you the difference and some of the schools have segment times that can show you the differences between what you're trying to do.
--kC
| skuttledude | 02-05-2007 09:02 AM |
+eleventeen what KC said.
Only thing I can add...
the flick is going to work in a properly setup car for rally stuff only.
Got grip?
Only thing I can add...
the flick is going to work in a properly setup car for rally stuff only.
Got grip?
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 09:10 AM |
Your understanding of load transfer is flawed. Load transfers in the opposite direction of the acceleration. If your braking (accelerating rearward) you transfer load forward, off the rear tires onto the front tires. If you are cornering to the left (leftward acceleration) you are transferring load to the right. To transfer load from the inside front to the outside rear you would need combined acceleration and cornering. The situation you have described does not have that combination of accelerations.
What you are doing with the car is not faster then just turning in earlier. In fact, it is most assuredly slower. This is because your roll velocity is higher then it needs to be meaning that you'll actually overshoot your terminal roll angle and total load transfer due to your roll momentum. That is bad when it comes to going fast.
What you are doing with the car is not faster then just turning in earlier. In fact, it is most assuredly slower. This is because your roll velocity is higher then it needs to be meaning that you'll actually overshoot your terminal roll angle and total load transfer due to your roll momentum. That is bad when it comes to going fast.
| WRXedUSA | 02-05-2007 09:12 AM |
Flicking don't work for autoX.
Find the Line is your freind.
Find the Line is your freind.
| Howl | 02-05-2007 09:26 AM |
[URL="http://media.putfile.com/Sprongl-Audi-quattro-drift"]http://media.putfile.com/Sprongl-Audi-quattro-drift[/URL]
| S L O W W R X | 02-05-2007 09:37 AM |
Flicking the car is not faster in a high grip situation. Period
Setup youre suspension properly and learn the line, that will tighten the nut behind the wheel.
Matt
Oh by the way that does'nt mean that its not fun to flick the car, its just now fast.
Setup youre suspension properly and learn the line, that will tighten the nut behind the wheel.
Matt
Oh by the way that does'nt mean that its not fun to flick the car, its just now fast.
| randy zimmer | 02-05-2007 09:39 AM |
I wouldn't completely discount this, remember, he isn't sliding, just getting the car "nervous".
If the car's a pig and doesn't work "right" then driving it "right" doesn't always work.
If it makes better times for you, fine.
But you may find driving to the car's strengths and minimizing the time spent doing what it hates is a better tactic than forcing it to obey.
If you're giving up accel or braking to turn the wrong way, it may be counterproductive, but everyone has a personal style or every F1 car would be identical and the setups the same.
If the car's a pig and doesn't work "right" then driving it "right" doesn't always work.
If it makes better times for you, fine.
But you may find driving to the car's strengths and minimizing the time spent doing what it hates is a better tactic than forcing it to obey.
If you're giving up accel or braking to turn the wrong way, it may be counterproductive, but everyone has a personal style or every F1 car would be identical and the setups the same.
| Howl | 02-05-2007 09:45 AM |
Another benefit of "sliding" or "drifting" is it can be used to keep you RPM's up. In theory this shouldn't matter in a "race car" with the proper gearing, but if you have trouble keeping your turbo spooled or staying in your power band with your daily driver then is some situations it may be faster. Single-gear go-karts are an example of this. If you keep your foot on the gas all the times and slide around the corners you can often post faster times because your not waiting for the engine to pick up again after every corner.
| KC | 02-05-2007 10:07 AM |
[QUOTE]If the car's a pig and doesn't work "right" then driving it "right" doesn't always work. If it makes better times for you, fine.[/QUOTE] That's the thing, how does he know if it's making better times in that one section?
I can tell you flat out, it's not, at least not the way he's describing in how he wishes to approach a corner. In my mind, I am picturing he's describing a 180 degree turn... pretty much the only time you'd *want* to do a Scand Flick to upset the car enough, and which most of the rally turns are set up as he describes. I can bet you given the same car, (on RE92s for example) doing a traditional late apex on a 180 degree turn will yield faster times not only through the corner, but will carry more speed to the beginning of the next segment.
So what if you're off boost? That's not as bad as you think it is. Sometimes, it's like traction control where you won't be overpowering your tires. The tires can only handle X amt of Gs through any given corner. If you exceed that limit you get sliding... loss of traction. Keeping the boost up, spinning your tires like this is not going to get you around a corner in a grip situation faster than late-apexing the cone.
Also, in a WRX, if you're sliding through a corner on the gas, and on boost, enough to pretty much unload the inside front tire, where's the power going to go on the front wheels? Think about it... you're sending 50% of power to your rear wheels (which are sliding sideways and propelling you forward very marginally) and 100% of the front wheel power to the INSIDE FRONT because there's no limited slip on a WRXs front end.
That outside front tire won't get any power until that inside front settles down.
Now, if you late apexed the corner, that inside front tire will be unloaded for a lesser amount of time, allowing you to get power to all 4 wheels much faster using maximum traction.
Yes, the WRX is a wallowing pig of a car on a stock suspension... it's got that going for it. :)
--kC
I can tell you flat out, it's not, at least not the way he's describing in how he wishes to approach a corner. In my mind, I am picturing he's describing a 180 degree turn... pretty much the only time you'd *want* to do a Scand Flick to upset the car enough, and which most of the rally turns are set up as he describes. I can bet you given the same car, (on RE92s for example) doing a traditional late apex on a 180 degree turn will yield faster times not only through the corner, but will carry more speed to the beginning of the next segment.
So what if you're off boost? That's not as bad as you think it is. Sometimes, it's like traction control where you won't be overpowering your tires. The tires can only handle X amt of Gs through any given corner. If you exceed that limit you get sliding... loss of traction. Keeping the boost up, spinning your tires like this is not going to get you around a corner in a grip situation faster than late-apexing the cone.
Also, in a WRX, if you're sliding through a corner on the gas, and on boost, enough to pretty much unload the inside front tire, where's the power going to go on the front wheels? Think about it... you're sending 50% of power to your rear wheels (which are sliding sideways and propelling you forward very marginally) and 100% of the front wheel power to the INSIDE FRONT because there's no limited slip on a WRXs front end.
That outside front tire won't get any power until that inside front settles down.
Now, if you late apexed the corner, that inside front tire will be unloaded for a lesser amount of time, allowing you to get power to all 4 wheels much faster using maximum traction.
Yes, the WRX is a wallowing pig of a car on a stock suspension... it's got that going for it. :)
--kC
| KC | 02-05-2007 10:10 AM |
[QUOTE=Howl;16934203]Another benefit of "sliding" or "drifting" is it can be used to keep you RPM's up. In theory this shouldn't matter in a "race car" with the proper gearing, but if you have trouble keeping your turbo spooled or staying in your power band with your daily driver then is some situations it may be faster. Single-gear go-karts are an example of this. If you keep your foot on the gas all the times and slide around the corners you can often post faster times because your not waiting for the engine to pick up again after every corner.[/QUOTE]
WRX Wagon != go kart. Much different suspension, driving dynamics. They also can hold more Gs through a turn... and have a much, much MUCH better grip circle than cars. Their traction footprint per tire is probably only a hair smaller than a WRX, (I'd argue has more traction when you factor in tread void on a street tire).
You cannot compare the two.
--kC
WRX Wagon != go kart. Much different suspension, driving dynamics. They also can hold more Gs through a turn... and have a much, much MUCH better grip circle than cars. Their traction footprint per tire is probably only a hair smaller than a WRX, (I'd argue has more traction when you factor in tread void on a street tire).
You cannot compare the two.
--kC
| Howl | 02-05-2007 10:31 AM |
What he's really doing is inducing oversteer to counter the car's tendancy to understeer.
| S L O W W R X | 02-05-2007 10:56 AM |
There are better ways to drive around the cars understeer problem.
| fastfreddy | 02-05-2007 11:03 AM |
[QUOTE]Flicking don't work for autoX. [/QUOTE]
AutoX hairpin in the rain?
Drifting is quicker (if done right), esp with an understeering car.
Verytight in, tap e-brake, power on by apex, drift to the next gate.
On any other occasion on tar, flicking with be more spectacular, but slower.
AutoX hairpin in the rain?
Drifting is quicker (if done right), esp with an understeering car.
Verytight in, tap e-brake, power on by apex, drift to the next gate.
On any other occasion on tar, flicking with be more spectacular, but slower.
| leecea | 02-05-2007 11:37 AM |
I've been to quite a few rainy autoxs and seen some national level drivers in everything from stock to SP, across FWD, AWD, and RWD. I have yet to see one use the ebrake or try to drift between gates.
| fastfreddy | 02-05-2007 11:43 AM |
Slow download..... Couple of them here - not the best ones ever, but you get the idea
[URL="http://www.michaelcanny.com/images/October05036.avi"] Autocross Ebrake[/URL]
[URL="http://www.michaelcanny.com/images/October05036.avi"] Autocross Ebrake[/URL]
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 11:52 AM |
[QUOTE=Howl;16934203]Another benefit of "sliding" or "drifting" is it can be used to keep you RPM's up. In theory this shouldn't matter in a "race car" with the proper gearing, but if you have trouble keeping your turbo spooled or staying in your power band with your daily driver then is some situations it may be faster. Single-gear go-karts are an example of this. If you keep your foot on the gas all the times and slide around the corners you can often post faster times because your not waiting for the engine to pick up again after every corner.[/QUOTE]
If you are sliding a go-kart, you are going slow. Been there, done that. Sliding scrubs speed, and in a single gear 5hp go-kart, you aren't getting that speed back very quickly.
If you are sliding a go-kart, you are going slow. Been there, done that. Sliding scrubs speed, and in a single gear 5hp go-kart, you aren't getting that speed back very quickly.
| Howl | 02-05-2007 12:04 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x;16936007]If you are sliding a go-kart, you are going slow. Been there, done that. Sliding scrubs speed, and in a single gear 5hp go-kart, you aren't getting that speed back very quickly.[/QUOTE]
You can't say that. Like all things it depends on the situation.
You can't say that. Like all things it depends on the situation.
| Ralliart4 | 02-05-2007 12:14 PM |
Well i am not expert but here is my stupid advice.
If you so desire to use a scandi as your initiation method then be prepared for a couple things.
- YOU MUST learn how to multitask and quick too. With a possible downshift, heel & toe or left food brake while countersteering takes some practice.
- Left foot braking is a must must must. So pracitice practice practice and practice.
- If you are trying to do this with a underpowered or over rubbered (tyres) 4wd car be prepared to abuse it a little more than you would like to because the momentum loss is going to hit you hard :(
- The scandi is a method of scrubbing off speed while keeping up momentum keep that in mind.. tarmac, gravel, mud, snow, sand no matter where it will scrub down your speed alot.... over alot of tarmac stages you can use a scandi to set you up for a quick transition from a slow deep/tight corner to a series of small easy or opening corners of but mostly you have to have some faith.
Here may be an example for an autox situation:
* approach a 90deg L/R
* slalom starting on the side you turned in on (so if you turned R you have to start the slalom on the R side of the first cone)
Upon apprach to the 90 L/R push your weight forward with a left foot brake, then initiate the scandi (this will start your turn without having to slow down to where you would have if you were going for a grip line... you will be further away and turning earlier than the grip line)
When you apprach the apex determine where you want to point the nose if it clears the cone and roll into some power and counter with a gentle motion if you start to understeer gently roll your left foot onto the brake to add some front grip and if that does not help steer a touch into the understeer to bring back your grip circle...
Now if all is well you should be pointed to a grip line for the attack of the first slalom cone and the weight is starting to shift back to the opposite side of the car to help you cross that first slalom cone with most of the momentum from the 90deg turn.
I know thats alot of words for maybee 2sec of work but like i said multitasking and quick thinking.... is it faster than a grip line maybee not but at least you will look like a hero to all the people watching. :)
If you so desire to use a scandi as your initiation method then be prepared for a couple things.
- YOU MUST learn how to multitask and quick too. With a possible downshift, heel & toe or left food brake while countersteering takes some practice.
- Left foot braking is a must must must. So pracitice practice practice and practice.
- If you are trying to do this with a underpowered or over rubbered (tyres) 4wd car be prepared to abuse it a little more than you would like to because the momentum loss is going to hit you hard :(
- The scandi is a method of scrubbing off speed while keeping up momentum keep that in mind.. tarmac, gravel, mud, snow, sand no matter where it will scrub down your speed alot.... over alot of tarmac stages you can use a scandi to set you up for a quick transition from a slow deep/tight corner to a series of small easy or opening corners of but mostly you have to have some faith.
Here may be an example for an autox situation:
* approach a 90deg L/R
* slalom starting on the side you turned in on (so if you turned R you have to start the slalom on the R side of the first cone)
Upon apprach to the 90 L/R push your weight forward with a left foot brake, then initiate the scandi (this will start your turn without having to slow down to where you would have if you were going for a grip line... you will be further away and turning earlier than the grip line)
When you apprach the apex determine where you want to point the nose if it clears the cone and roll into some power and counter with a gentle motion if you start to understeer gently roll your left foot onto the brake to add some front grip and if that does not help steer a touch into the understeer to bring back your grip circle...
Now if all is well you should be pointed to a grip line for the attack of the first slalom cone and the weight is starting to shift back to the opposite side of the car to help you cross that first slalom cone with most of the momentum from the 90deg turn.
I know thats alot of words for maybee 2sec of work but like i said multitasking and quick thinking.... is it faster than a grip line maybee not but at least you will look like a hero to all the people watching. :)
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 12:20 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl;16936213]You can't say that. Like all things it depends on the situation.[/QUOTE]
Could you explain a situation where sliding a go-kart is faster? I LOVED it when I saw a guy I was catching slide the kart a bit. It meant I would be eating him alive going into the next corner. Go-karts are so sensitive to tire scrub that even just turning the wheel a tiny bit more then is actually necessary to go around the corner costs you a couple tenths of a mph. I'd love to hear what situation you have found that it actually benefits you to slide a go-kart.
The only time drifting is faster is when the car accelerates in a straight line with more g's then it can corner with. A 5hp go-kart is miles away from fitting that description, accelerating at less then .1g's while cornering at something approaching 2g's (depending on surface. in the rain on wets you'll still pull .8-.9g's easily).
Could you explain a situation where sliding a go-kart is faster? I LOVED it when I saw a guy I was catching slide the kart a bit. It meant I would be eating him alive going into the next corner. Go-karts are so sensitive to tire scrub that even just turning the wheel a tiny bit more then is actually necessary to go around the corner costs you a couple tenths of a mph. I'd love to hear what situation you have found that it actually benefits you to slide a go-kart.
The only time drifting is faster is when the car accelerates in a straight line with more g's then it can corner with. A 5hp go-kart is miles away from fitting that description, accelerating at less then .1g's while cornering at something approaching 2g's (depending on surface. in the rain on wets you'll still pull .8-.9g's easily).
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 12:22 PM |
Um, how do you scrub speed while maintaining momentum? That's some really cool physics there...
| WRXedUSA | 02-05-2007 12:37 PM |
[QUOTE=fastfreddy;16935272]AutoX hairpin in the rain?
Drifting is quicker (if done right), esp with an understeering car.
Verytight in, tap e-brake, power on by apex, drift to the next gate.
On any other occasion on tar, flicking with be more spectacular, but slower.[/QUOTE]
Nope.
If the hairpin is that tight, and you are on water, the time you lose pulling the handbrake, hoping that you break (which is a no-no in a WRX anyways) rear traction, you should rather spend your skill finding the entry points, braking points and dowshifting into the proper gear (prior to turn in) rather than trying a ricer-riffic stunt that will cost you time and most likely a cone.
Drifting is NOT quicker, either.
Drifting is quicker (if done right), esp with an understeering car.
Verytight in, tap e-brake, power on by apex, drift to the next gate.
On any other occasion on tar, flicking with be more spectacular, but slower.[/QUOTE]
Nope.
If the hairpin is that tight, and you are on water, the time you lose pulling the handbrake, hoping that you break (which is a no-no in a WRX anyways) rear traction, you should rather spend your skill finding the entry points, braking points and dowshifting into the proper gear (prior to turn in) rather than trying a ricer-riffic stunt that will cost you time and most likely a cone.
Drifting is NOT quicker, either.
| Howl | 02-05-2007 12:58 PM |
So are you saying no matter what the surface, no matter what the car, that not sliding or drifting is always quicker?
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 01:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl;16937009]So are you saying no matter what the surface, no matter what the car, that not sliding or drifting is always quicker?[/QUOTE]
Go back and read what I wrote. That is what I'm saying.
[quote=Solo-x]The only time drifting is faster is when the car accelerates in a straight line with more g's then it can corner with.[/quote]
Go back and read what I wrote. That is what I'm saying.
[quote=Solo-x]The only time drifting is faster is when the car accelerates in a straight line with more g's then it can corner with.[/quote]
| S L O W W R X | 02-05-2007 01:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl;16937009]So are you saying no matter what the surface, no matter what the car, that not sliding or drifting is always quicker?[/QUOTE]
The discussion is about a high grip situation, however the same rules "almost" universally apply to any racing situation.
Maintaining maximum grip is best
The discussion is about a high grip situation, however the same rules "almost" universally apply to any racing situation.
Maintaining maximum grip is best
| fastfreddy | 02-05-2007 01:06 PM |
[QUOTE]If the hairpin is that tight, and you are on water, the time you lose pulling the handbrake, hoping that you break (which is a no-no in a WRX anyways) rear traction, you should rather spend your skill finding the entry points, braking points and dowshifting into the proper gear (prior to turn in) rather than trying a ricer-riffic stunt that will cost you time and most likely a cone.
[/QUOTE]
Check the video link - mentally count the time you would spend taking that corner normally v's the ebrake method - you'll be surpised.
And using an ebrake is not a "ricer" move - if it's faster, you should have no problem doing it, and yes, in certain limited circumstances it is faster.
[/QUOTE]
Check the video link - mentally count the time you would spend taking that corner normally v's the ebrake method - you'll be surpised.
And using an ebrake is not a "ricer" move - if it's faster, you should have no problem doing it, and yes, in certain limited circumstances it is faster.
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 01:29 PM |
[QUOTE=fastfreddy;16937127]Check the video link - mentally count the time you would spend taking that corner normally v's the ebrake method - you'll be surpised.
And using an ebrake is not a "ricer" move - if it's faster, you should have no problem doing it, and yes, in certain limited circumstances it is faster.[/QUOTE]
I don't mentally count. I use a data logger. In the rain, on a surface that didn't have much grip to begin with but then was coated with 50wt racing oil (which I put down driving another car. don't ask....), while running street tires, my STS car pulls down .8-.9 g's cornering (when it wasn't DIRECTLY on the oil spill). Mark Daddio's EVO, on grippy, dry asphault only pulls down 1g accelerating in 1st gear. On wet asphault he's down quite a bit from there. You do the math.
And using an ebrake is not a "ricer" move - if it's faster, you should have no problem doing it, and yes, in certain limited circumstances it is faster.[/QUOTE]
I don't mentally count. I use a data logger. In the rain, on a surface that didn't have much grip to begin with but then was coated with 50wt racing oil (which I put down driving another car. don't ask....), while running street tires, my STS car pulls down .8-.9 g's cornering (when it wasn't DIRECTLY on the oil spill). Mark Daddio's EVO, on grippy, dry asphault only pulls down 1g accelerating in 1st gear. On wet asphault he's down quite a bit from there. You do the math.
| fastfreddy | 02-05-2007 01:32 PM |
Well my flux capacitor says it's faster.
Feel free to try it sometime.
Feel free to try it sometime.
| chimchimm5 | 02-05-2007 01:57 PM |
Thanks for all the replies, but [I]why are you guys talking about [U]drifting[/U][/I][U]? [/U]That is NOT what this thread is about. Please reread the original post CAREFULLY.
[quote=chimchimm5;16929327]Rather than go from straight to turn in directly, I found that doing a [B]mini [/B]Scandinavian flick just before turn in to get weight to start moving outside makes the weight transfer happen quicker. Since [B]it's a light feint [SIZE=4]([/SIZE][SIZE=4][SIZE=7]not [/SIZE]the full feint that gets the tires loose[/SIZE])[/B] the weight gets transfered and a faster turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, [B]but I don't know if it's "faster"[/B].[/quote]
I do the true scandi flick for rallyx, where I'm actually sliding, as I believe is appropriate.
I played around with the GRIP version in a parking lot while testing. I haven't yet gotten to try it in the autox. I've tried it several times at like 3/10th on the street. I AM **NOT** TALKING ABOUT DRIFTING. I'm talking about inducing weight transfer at an earlier stage in a turn.
As for weight transfer, solo-x is misreading my post. His explanation is the same understanding I have. Perhaps he's not getting that what I'm using the flick to throw the weight to the outside after the flick is done, not during the initial wrong way turn out.
And yeah, as I said in a reply, a stiffer suspension doesn't need this technique. But I'm wondering if my wallowing pig does benefit from it. And the purpose of it, I feel, is to move more quickly into the midcorner set. For example, in a long sweeper there is a lot of midcorner where you want the car balanced front/back at around 50/50 by feathering the throttle. With this grip flick, it FEELS like I'm inducing this balance earlier.
I don't KNOW, which is why I posted in the first place. However, talking about drifting is OFF TOPIC.
[quote=chimchimm5;16929327]Rather than go from straight to turn in directly, I found that doing a [B]mini [/B]Scandinavian flick just before turn in to get weight to start moving outside makes the weight transfer happen quicker. Since [B]it's a light feint [SIZE=4]([/SIZE][SIZE=4][SIZE=7]not [/SIZE]the full feint that gets the tires loose[/SIZE])[/B] the weight gets transfered and a faster turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, [B]but I don't know if it's "faster"[/B].[/quote]
I do the true scandi flick for rallyx, where I'm actually sliding, as I believe is appropriate.
I played around with the GRIP version in a parking lot while testing. I haven't yet gotten to try it in the autox. I've tried it several times at like 3/10th on the street. I AM **NOT** TALKING ABOUT DRIFTING. I'm talking about inducing weight transfer at an earlier stage in a turn.
As for weight transfer, solo-x is misreading my post. His explanation is the same understanding I have. Perhaps he's not getting that what I'm using the flick to throw the weight to the outside after the flick is done, not during the initial wrong way turn out.
And yeah, as I said in a reply, a stiffer suspension doesn't need this technique. But I'm wondering if my wallowing pig does benefit from it. And the purpose of it, I feel, is to move more quickly into the midcorner set. For example, in a long sweeper there is a lot of midcorner where you want the car balanced front/back at around 50/50 by feathering the throttle. With this grip flick, it FEELS like I'm inducing this balance earlier.
I don't KNOW, which is why I posted in the first place. However, talking about drifting is OFF TOPIC.
| leecea | 02-05-2007 02:16 PM |
[QUOTE]I do the true scandi flick for rallyx, where I'm actually sliding, as I believe is appropriate.[/QUOTE]
Well, that's another interesting question. Is this the fastest way around a rallyx course?
I have no experience at rallyx but I've read plenty of advice not to do WRC style slides when you start rallyx.
[QUOTE]As for weight transfer, solo-x is misreading my post. His explanation is the same understanding I have. Perhaps he's not getting that what I'm using the flick to throw the weight to the outside after the flick is done, not during the initial wrong way turn out.
[/QUOTE]
I still don't understand this. I've always heard that you want to slow the weight transfer through smooth inputs because fast and jerky weight transfer can upset the car. Doing this partial flick is designed to load the inside suspension a little then use its rebound in conjuction with a quick turn back into the corner to throw the weight quickly onto the outside tire, which I thought was wrong.
Well, that's another interesting question. Is this the fastest way around a rallyx course?
I have no experience at rallyx but I've read plenty of advice not to do WRC style slides when you start rallyx.
[QUOTE]As for weight transfer, solo-x is misreading my post. His explanation is the same understanding I have. Perhaps he's not getting that what I'm using the flick to throw the weight to the outside after the flick is done, not during the initial wrong way turn out.
[/QUOTE]
I still don't understand this. I've always heard that you want to slow the weight transfer through smooth inputs because fast and jerky weight transfer can upset the car. Doing this partial flick is designed to load the inside suspension a little then use its rebound in conjuction with a quick turn back into the corner to throw the weight quickly onto the outside tire, which I thought was wrong.
| randy zimmer | 02-05-2007 02:25 PM |
I'm with ya, Chimmie.
The car in a nervous state vs. planted, wants to change direction easier.
The car in a nervous state vs. planted, wants to change direction easier.
| Mind | 02-05-2007 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;16937901]Thanks for all the replies, but [I]why are you guys talking about [U]drifting[/U][/I][U]? [/U]That is NOT what this thread is about. Please reread the original post CAREFULLY.
I do the true scandi flick for rallyx, where I'm actually sliding, as I believe is appropriate.
I played around with the GRIP version in a parking lot while testing. I haven't yet gotten to try it in the autox. I've tried it several times at like 3/10th on the street. I AM **NOT** TALKING ABOUT DRIFTING. I'm talking about inducing weight transfer at an earlier stage in a turn.
As for weight transfer, solo-x is misreading my post. His explanation is the same understanding I have. Perhaps he's not getting that what I'm using the flick to throw the weight to the outside after the flick is done, not during the initial wrong way turn out.
And yeah, as I said in a reply, a stiffer suspension doesn't need this technique. But I'm wondering if my wallowing pig does benefit from it. And the purpose of it, I feel, is to move more quickly into the midcorner set. For example, in a long sweeper there is a lot of midcorner where you want the car balanced front/back at around 50/50 by feathering the throttle. With this grip flick, it FEELS like I'm inducing this balance earlier.
I don't KNOW, which is why I posted in the first place. However, talking about drifting is OFF TOPIC.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you're talking about a more 'aggressive' way to turn in that encourages a more neutral or slight-oversteer biased attitude on turn in. I think that is completely reasonable, as some of the racing literature I've read talk about figuring out the car and how to get it to do what you want. Kind of a technique like trailbraking or left-foot braking to discourage understeer. Or even for some cars how turning faster vs. slower will achieve what you want.
The way you're getting the rear around in that method is my introducing a step-input for yaw... and it's not a drift-style oversteer, but more of a slight slip-angle manipulator to translate that yaw momentum into greater slip angle in the rear.
I'm by far no racing expert, but as long as it's viewed as a technique to slightly change the bias of the car versus something like a drifting technique to completely change your approach to the turn, it sounds like it might be worthwhile to give it a shot.
I do the true scandi flick for rallyx, where I'm actually sliding, as I believe is appropriate.
I played around with the GRIP version in a parking lot while testing. I haven't yet gotten to try it in the autox. I've tried it several times at like 3/10th on the street. I AM **NOT** TALKING ABOUT DRIFTING. I'm talking about inducing weight transfer at an earlier stage in a turn.
As for weight transfer, solo-x is misreading my post. His explanation is the same understanding I have. Perhaps he's not getting that what I'm using the flick to throw the weight to the outside after the flick is done, not during the initial wrong way turn out.
And yeah, as I said in a reply, a stiffer suspension doesn't need this technique. But I'm wondering if my wallowing pig does benefit from it. And the purpose of it, I feel, is to move more quickly into the midcorner set. For example, in a long sweeper there is a lot of midcorner where you want the car balanced front/back at around 50/50 by feathering the throttle. With this grip flick, it FEELS like I'm inducing this balance earlier.
I don't KNOW, which is why I posted in the first place. However, talking about drifting is OFF TOPIC.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you're talking about a more 'aggressive' way to turn in that encourages a more neutral or slight-oversteer biased attitude on turn in. I think that is completely reasonable, as some of the racing literature I've read talk about figuring out the car and how to get it to do what you want. Kind of a technique like trailbraking or left-foot braking to discourage understeer. Or even for some cars how turning faster vs. slower will achieve what you want.
The way you're getting the rear around in that method is my introducing a step-input for yaw... and it's not a drift-style oversteer, but more of a slight slip-angle manipulator to translate that yaw momentum into greater slip angle in the rear.
I'm by far no racing expert, but as long as it's viewed as a technique to slightly change the bias of the car versus something like a drifting technique to completely change your approach to the turn, it sounds like it might be worthwhile to give it a shot.
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 02:52 PM |
Reread what I posted about roll velocity and roll momentum. You'll have the potential to go faster by simply turning earlier.
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 03:01 PM |
[QUOTE=fastfreddy;16937535]Well my flux capacitor says it's faster.
Feel free to try it sometime.[/QUOTE]
Damn those laws of fisiks!!!! :alien:
Feel free to try it sometime.[/QUOTE]
Damn those laws of fisiks!!!! :alien:
| Patrick Olsen | 02-05-2007 03:12 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;16937901]I played around with the GRIP version[/quote]
Please stop talking about "GRIP" or "grip situation" or any other use of grip as a way to define a type of racing/driving. There's "racing" and/or "driving", and then there's "drifting". There's no such thing as "grip".
[quote=chimchim5]... in a parking lot while testing. I haven't yet gotten to try it in the autox. I've tried it several times at like 3/10th on the street.[/quote]
:rolleyes: Oh jeezus...
[quote=chimchim5]And yeah, as I said in a reply, a stiffer suspension doesn't need this technique. But I'm wondering if my wallowing pig does benefit from it. And the purpose of it, I feel, is to move more quickly into the midcorner set. [/QUOTE]
I didn't have any problem driving my sister's stock WRX wagon on track the same way I drive my coil-over'd, swaybar'd Legacy. I was faster in her car on RE92s than I was in my own car on R-compounds. I've watched plenty of stock-based sedan racing and can't say I've ever seen anyone trying a partial "grip flick" to better their lap times. I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Please stop talking about "GRIP" or "grip situation" or any other use of grip as a way to define a type of racing/driving. There's "racing" and/or "driving", and then there's "drifting". There's no such thing as "grip".
[quote=chimchim5]... in a parking lot while testing. I haven't yet gotten to try it in the autox. I've tried it several times at like 3/10th on the street.[/quote]
:rolleyes: Oh jeezus...
[quote=chimchim5]And yeah, as I said in a reply, a stiffer suspension doesn't need this technique. But I'm wondering if my wallowing pig does benefit from it. And the purpose of it, I feel, is to move more quickly into the midcorner set. [/QUOTE]
I didn't have any problem driving my sister's stock WRX wagon on track the same way I drive my coil-over'd, swaybar'd Legacy. I was faster in her car on RE92s than I was in my own car on R-compounds. I've watched plenty of stock-based sedan racing and can't say I've ever seen anyone trying a partial "grip flick" to better their lap times. I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| KC | 02-05-2007 03:28 PM |
[QUOTE=fastfreddy;16935272]AutoX hairpin in the rain?
Drifting is quicker (if done right), esp with an understeering car.
Verytight in, tap e-brake, power on by apex, drift to the next gate.
On any other occasion on tar, flicking with be more spectacular, but slower.[/QUOTE]Wet conditions, you can get away with it a little better in an AWD car. (*cough* Stirling Moss Runoffs *cough*) But I'd argue still, it's slower.
Grip is reduced when its wet in a STOCK car that's not setup to handle like Nate's civic on oil or Daddios SM car.
I've approached this thinking OPs definition of GRIP = DRY asphalt.
And understeer is a DRIVING problem, not a car problem. Just like any other driving dynamic, it can be 'fixed' by the driver.
--kC
Drifting is quicker (if done right), esp with an understeering car.
Verytight in, tap e-brake, power on by apex, drift to the next gate.
On any other occasion on tar, flicking with be more spectacular, but slower.[/QUOTE]Wet conditions, you can get away with it a little better in an AWD car. (*cough* Stirling Moss Runoffs *cough*) But I'd argue still, it's slower.
Grip is reduced when its wet in a STOCK car that's not setup to handle like Nate's civic on oil or Daddios SM car.
I've approached this thinking OPs definition of GRIP = DRY asphalt.
And understeer is a DRIVING problem, not a car problem. Just like any other driving dynamic, it can be 'fixed' by the driver.
--kC
| rubinm | 02-05-2007 03:31 PM |
little vid of myself setting up a Scandinavian flick @ the Bridgestone Winter driving school in Steamboat CO.
[url]http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/rubinm/?action=view¤t=ScanFlick.flv[/url]
- in this instance, despite the line, i utilize the entire track, in the end setting the car up appropriately for the following turns, and in return creating a faster lap.
i grew up driving Audi Quattro's on ice, spent many days at the rally school, and have progressed to the WRX. its definately a blast (and easier to drive compared to the ol' quattro's).
Like it has been mentioned before, a flick is only a good maneuver when trying to maintain speed through a corner with minimal brake usage. the manuever can bleed momentum while at the same time setting the car up for the turn. in some instances, on some surfaces, it is a faster method of executing a corner, and or setting up for another turn.
the determining factors in whether a Flick is faster are:
-Driver skill
-The vehicle set-up
-Track surface
-Type of corner approaching the turn and after the turn
-and car set-up
all will determine whether a Flick will be faster in the end. In some instances, it is Absolutely faster. other time's it is not.
[url]http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/rubinm/?action=view¤t=ScanFlick.flv[/url]
- in this instance, despite the line, i utilize the entire track, in the end setting the car up appropriately for the following turns, and in return creating a faster lap.
i grew up driving Audi Quattro's on ice, spent many days at the rally school, and have progressed to the WRX. its definately a blast (and easier to drive compared to the ol' quattro's).
Like it has been mentioned before, a flick is only a good maneuver when trying to maintain speed through a corner with minimal brake usage. the manuever can bleed momentum while at the same time setting the car up for the turn. in some instances, on some surfaces, it is a faster method of executing a corner, and or setting up for another turn.
the determining factors in whether a Flick is faster are:
-Driver skill
-The vehicle set-up
-Track surface
-Type of corner approaching the turn and after the turn
-and car set-up
all will determine whether a Flick will be faster in the end. In some instances, it is Absolutely faster. other time's it is not.
| Recce80 | 02-05-2007 03:33 PM |
sometimes a straight line isnt the fast way through a corner...
�
�
[quote=chimchimm5;16929327]Driving technique question: Is this a good strategy to employ?
I'm trying to improve the monkey behind the wheel first, so I'm still on stock suspension (springs/struts). As a result, I have quite a bit of travel and body roll when establishing a set in a turn. Because the long travel, "low" dampening rate, and slow rate of weight transfer, it seems like it takes a long time to establish the set.
Rather than go from straight to turn in directly, I found that doing a mini Scandinavian flick just before turn in to get weight to start moving outside makes the weight transfer happen quicker. Since it's a light feint (not the full feint that gets the tires loose) the weight gets transfered and a faster turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, but I don't know if it's "faster".
Please show me the err of my ways or whatnot.[/quote]
Rubinm,Posting a video in the snow,is not a "grip" situation ,and your tecnique is rather......well...keep practicing.
Lots of good posts and info in here and alot of lack of info,as well as people posting up dirt/gravel videos?To show reference?The thread/question is for "GRIP" stiuations,meaning tarmac,i dont know why people post up videos of gravel/dirt or low grip situations....but anyhow heres my 2 cents also.
With stock suspension,you should utilize the weight transfer yes,with uprated dampers/springs,in grip situations is not needed to use the flick.But in your situation with stock suspension,you have the right ideas for tecnique,its just how to use them and impliment them properly.
Since you are on stock suspension and trying to progress your driving tecnique,that is a good way to go and build confidence in the chassis and your driving skill,all you have is the momentum to really push you through the corner since the car is quite heavy,and lacks in proper damper force as well as spring compression,you are on the limit of the suspension/traction much sooner than if it was uprated ,rather than having good dampers/springs,you have to improvise as you are doing,which is good,but not all times will the flick be faster than a straight apex line,thats for you to determine and adapt in situations.If it seems like it takes a long time to establish the setup,you might be trying to setup to early and not utilizing the brakes to initiate the initial weight transfer,you can do it quickly with no problems,as long as you control the braking with the left foot and have good throttle control,if you arent left foot braking,then it will seem like it will take a long time to setup,because it is taking that much longer lolfor a proper scandinavian flick in a grip situation,its up to the driver to decide how far and how much to flick it,but overall yes,it is a good tecnique to use,but you have to utilize the braking to initiate the proper weight transfer...
Some corners in grip situations are faster taken in an unorthodox line,not a straight apex line.When using scandinavian flick in grip situations,when you are forcing the car to break traction to use momentum and setup for the exit to keep your speed up,it should be done rather fast.How you setup is entirely on how you progress in your tecnique,and only practice/seat time will help.
I use similar tecniques to keep speed through corners with soft dampers/springs that arent meant for tarmac,You can see what i am talking about in similar tecniques in this video.
[URL]http://youtube.com/watch?v=zTzpPgIP1S8[/URL]
Good luck with everything!
Johnny
I'm trying to improve the monkey behind the wheel first, so I'm still on stock suspension (springs/struts). As a result, I have quite a bit of travel and body roll when establishing a set in a turn. Because the long travel, "low" dampening rate, and slow rate of weight transfer, it seems like it takes a long time to establish the set.
Rather than go from straight to turn in directly, I found that doing a mini Scandinavian flick just before turn in to get weight to start moving outside makes the weight transfer happen quicker. Since it's a light feint (not the full feint that gets the tires loose) the weight gets transfered and a faster turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, but I don't know if it's "faster".
Please show me the err of my ways or whatnot.[/quote]
Rubinm,Posting a video in the snow,is not a "grip" situation ,and your tecnique is rather......well...keep practicing.
Lots of good posts and info in here and alot of lack of info,as well as people posting up dirt/gravel videos?To show reference?The thread/question is for "GRIP" stiuations,meaning tarmac,i dont know why people post up videos of gravel/dirt or low grip situations....but anyhow heres my 2 cents also.
With stock suspension,you should utilize the weight transfer yes,with uprated dampers/springs,in grip situations is not needed to use the flick.But in your situation with stock suspension,you have the right ideas for tecnique,its just how to use them and impliment them properly.
Since you are on stock suspension and trying to progress your driving tecnique,that is a good way to go and build confidence in the chassis and your driving skill,all you have is the momentum to really push you through the corner since the car is quite heavy,and lacks in proper damper force as well as spring compression,you are on the limit of the suspension/traction much sooner than if it was uprated ,rather than having good dampers/springs,you have to improvise as you are doing,which is good,but not all times will the flick be faster than a straight apex line,thats for you to determine and adapt in situations.If it seems like it takes a long time to establish the setup,you might be trying to setup to early and not utilizing the brakes to initiate the initial weight transfer,you can do it quickly with no problems,as long as you control the braking with the left foot and have good throttle control,if you arent left foot braking,then it will seem like it will take a long time to setup,because it is taking that much longer lolfor a proper scandinavian flick in a grip situation,its up to the driver to decide how far and how much to flick it,but overall yes,it is a good tecnique to use,but you have to utilize the braking to initiate the proper weight transfer...
Some corners in grip situations are faster taken in an unorthodox line,not a straight apex line.When using scandinavian flick in grip situations,when you are forcing the car to break traction to use momentum and setup for the exit to keep your speed up,it should be done rather fast.How you setup is entirely on how you progress in your tecnique,and only practice/seat time will help.
I use similar tecniques to keep speed through corners with soft dampers/springs that arent meant for tarmac,You can see what i am talking about in similar tecniques in this video.
[URL]http://youtube.com/watch?v=zTzpPgIP1S8[/URL]
Good luck with everything!
Johnny
| WRXedUSA | 02-05-2007 03:45 PM |
[QUOTE=fastfreddy;16937127]Check the video link - mentally count the time you would spend taking that corner normally v's the ebrake method - you'll be surpised.
And using an ebrake is not a "ricer" move - if it's faster, you should have no problem doing it, and yes, in certain limited circumstances it is faster.[/QUOTE]
That's where you fail. It may "Feel fast like Petter Solberg" but instead, it is very, very slow.
In all, Chimmy-chim-chimster is forgetting that "slow and smooth = fast" on the autoX circuit.
IBKC'snationalWRXwagonrainrunvideo.
And using an ebrake is not a "ricer" move - if it's faster, you should have no problem doing it, and yes, in certain limited circumstances it is faster.[/QUOTE]
That's where you fail. It may "Feel fast like Petter Solberg" but instead, it is very, very slow.
In all, Chimmy-chim-chimster is forgetting that "slow and smooth = fast" on the autoX circuit.
IBKC'snationalWRXwagonrainrunvideo.
| solo-x | 02-05-2007 03:52 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA;16939599]
IBKC'snationalWRXwagonrainrunvideo.[/QUOTE]
I've been waiting for that one too!
IBKC'snationalWRXwagonrainrunvideo.[/QUOTE]
I've been waiting for that one too!
| Porter | 02-05-2007 03:57 PM |
[quote=Glenn Wallace;16931781]I think what you're doing is getting it to "set" slightly earlier. I think this is ok providing you a) don't scrub speed and b) are right on the throttle as soon as it is set.
I notice I drive FWD cars this way....
Also, this isn't even a feint or a flick --- you'd be just turning in a little further to get it set then getting the steering back on line and then squeezing the gas.[/quote]I used to do this in my '87 Saab 900. With enough weight transfer and very smooth inputs, you can make magic happen. :)
I notice I drive FWD cars this way....
Also, this isn't even a feint or a flick --- you'd be just turning in a little further to get it set then getting the steering back on line and then squeezing the gas.[/quote]I used to do this in my '87 Saab 900. With enough weight transfer and very smooth inputs, you can make magic happen. :)
| Porter | 02-05-2007 03:59 PM |
I swear to god, I'm going to PISTOL WHIP the next person that says "in a grip situation". :furious:
Don't ever use that phrase again. You Initial D fanboy.
Don't ever use that phrase again. You Initial D fanboy.
| Recce80 | 02-05-2007 04:06 PM |
[quote=Porter;16939821]I swear to god, I'm going to PISTOL WHIP the next person that says "in a grip situation". :furious:
Don't ever use that phrase again. You Initial D fanboy.[/quote]
Grip situation refers to TRACTION/GRIP situation.Which is what he is talking about,he actually drives his car and wants to know more about a tecnique in a GRIP SITUATION,There isnt anything else to it.
Don't ever use that phrase again. You Initial D fanboy.[/quote]
Grip situation refers to TRACTION/GRIP situation.Which is what he is talking about,he actually drives his car and wants to know more about a tecnique in a GRIP SITUATION,There isnt anything else to it.
| sachilles | 02-05-2007 04:13 PM |
In general, I think smooth is always faster than herky jerky.
The benefits of the flick as I understand have more to do with the style of racing that is rally.
Most competitors in a rally don't really know what is waiting for them on any given corner. The flick allows for a better adjustment once in a turn.
If you find yourself going to fast into a corner, using traditional techniques, you'll likely understeer off the outside of the corner. In rally, that isn't such a hot idea. In a rally, you only have one chance to go through that corner. The flick might not be the fastest way through the corner, but it allows for a greater amount of error by the driver and still be able to continue quickly through a corner without eating a tree. Scrubbing speed is ultimately faster, than trying to drive through a tree, because you misjudges the corner.
In an autox, there isn't an excuse for not knowing what is coming up on the corners. The only way I'd see a flick as being the smarter way is if you over cook it going into a section. I say smarter, because it won't be the fastest way around the course, it will simply prevent you from going off course or maybe taking out a cone. In that case, the reason why its smarter is because you already screwed up, and you are just salvaging a run.
Chim, I think you ask a lot of good questions. The thing is, reading all this stuff if helpful, and the questions are good to ask. However, experience and seat time are the things that will help you out the most.
If your club allows it, let a more experienced driver take your car out. It will amaze you what it can do. You don't have to reinvent the wheel in terms of driver style to do well in your car. You just need practice. You will get better.
The flick is a cool thing to learn to do, but it won't make you faster at the autox. If it does make you faster, something else is wrong.
Smooth and steady wins the autox.
now if I could only practice what I preach.:lol:
The benefits of the flick as I understand have more to do with the style of racing that is rally.
Most competitors in a rally don't really know what is waiting for them on any given corner. The flick allows for a better adjustment once in a turn.
If you find yourself going to fast into a corner, using traditional techniques, you'll likely understeer off the outside of the corner. In rally, that isn't such a hot idea. In a rally, you only have one chance to go through that corner. The flick might not be the fastest way through the corner, but it allows for a greater amount of error by the driver and still be able to continue quickly through a corner without eating a tree. Scrubbing speed is ultimately faster, than trying to drive through a tree, because you misjudges the corner.
In an autox, there isn't an excuse for not knowing what is coming up on the corners. The only way I'd see a flick as being the smarter way is if you over cook it going into a section. I say smarter, because it won't be the fastest way around the course, it will simply prevent you from going off course or maybe taking out a cone. In that case, the reason why its smarter is because you already screwed up, and you are just salvaging a run.
Chim, I think you ask a lot of good questions. The thing is, reading all this stuff if helpful, and the questions are good to ask. However, experience and seat time are the things that will help you out the most.
If your club allows it, let a more experienced driver take your car out. It will amaze you what it can do. You don't have to reinvent the wheel in terms of driver style to do well in your car. You just need practice. You will get better.
The flick is a cool thing to learn to do, but it won't make you faster at the autox. If it does make you faster, something else is wrong.
Smooth and steady wins the autox.
now if I could only practice what I preach.:lol:
| goto_racing | 02-05-2007 04:18 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;16937901] For example, in a long sweeper there is a lot of midcorner where you want the car balanced front/back at around 50/50 by feathering the throttle. With this grip flick, it FEELS like I'm inducing this balance earlier.
[/QUOTE]
A long sweeper is good example of where it wouldn't do you any good. Realize that the extra load you are putting on the outside tires is coming from the momentum you put in the sprung mass with your flick. Your tires are not capable of producing this load in steady state, therefore your suspension will quickly rebound, eliminating that extra rotation you got at turn in. Unless you kept "upsetting" the car for the entire sweeper, your rotation (and what is making you "feel" it is faster) is gone in fractions of a second. If it isn't, then you are counter-steering at corner entry because you overdid it, and trust me, that is bleeding speed.
The fastest way around a corner has your radius(and rotation) as a function of your velocity. Meaning that as you near apex and slow, you rotate more, and at turn-in and track-out, your radius opens up. If you are rotating quickly at turn in, you are non-optimal, just like if you had to pinch off your turn or wiggle your butt at the end.
There is a way to get to mid corner in the same shape without doing the flick, trust me. Sounds kindof like Dumbo's feather right now. As you practice you probably will find that it isn't really hurting you so much as it is unnecesary.
Chris Lock
[/QUOTE]
A long sweeper is good example of where it wouldn't do you any good. Realize that the extra load you are putting on the outside tires is coming from the momentum you put in the sprung mass with your flick. Your tires are not capable of producing this load in steady state, therefore your suspension will quickly rebound, eliminating that extra rotation you got at turn in. Unless you kept "upsetting" the car for the entire sweeper, your rotation (and what is making you "feel" it is faster) is gone in fractions of a second. If it isn't, then you are counter-steering at corner entry because you overdid it, and trust me, that is bleeding speed.
The fastest way around a corner has your radius(and rotation) as a function of your velocity. Meaning that as you near apex and slow, you rotate more, and at turn-in and track-out, your radius opens up. If you are rotating quickly at turn in, you are non-optimal, just like if you had to pinch off your turn or wiggle your butt at the end.
There is a way to get to mid corner in the same shape without doing the flick, trust me. Sounds kindof like Dumbo's feather right now. As you practice you probably will find that it isn't really hurting you so much as it is unnecesary.
Chris Lock
| fastfreddy | 02-05-2007 04:37 PM |
[QUOTE]Wet conditions, you can get away with it a little better in an AWD car. (*cough* Stirling Moss Runoffs *cough*) But I'd argue still, it's slower.[/QUOTE]
Didn't see this post!
Yip - we're talking awd here - awd has the grip once it's pointed in the right direction, so the faster you can make that direction change happen - the better. Occasionally, and only very occasionally, a bit of hooligianism is faster.
Also wakes the course workers up after the karts :')
Didn't see this post!
Yip - we're talking awd here - awd has the grip once it's pointed in the right direction, so the faster you can make that direction change happen - the better. Occasionally, and only very occasionally, a bit of hooligianism is faster.
Also wakes the course workers up after the karts :')
| chimchimm5 | 02-05-2007 04:59 PM |
I'm still appreciating the relevant responses.
My apologies for calling it "grip", I didn't know what else to call it.
I'm getting the impression that rookie questions are not welcome in this section; even though I thought it was appropriate. The attitude I'm getting from some people tells either rookie questions are not allowed here, or they didn't get that I'm a rookie from the OP:
[quote=chimchimm5;16929327][B]I'm trying to improve the monkey behind the wheel first[/B], so I'm still on stock suspension (springs/struts).
... turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, [B]but I don't know if it's "faster"[/B].
[B] Please show me the err of my ways or whatnot.[/B][/quote]
Believe me, I *want* to go to as many autox, rallyx, track days, and driving schools as I can... but I've got a lot of other responsibilities first, namely my wife and family. NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD TO PARTICIPATE IN FREQUENT MOTORSPORTS; BOTH TIME AND MONEY. So as a result, I read A LOT. Currently I'm reading the Going Faster Skip Barber book and Milikan, and I've read several other books already. This is a hobby of mine, so I don't get to devote all my time to it. My accessible driving events are the autox, rallyx, karting, track days, and late night parking lots. And going to a Skip Barber driving school is my next "big goal". BUT UNTIL THEN... I'm gonna ask questions in the forums.
If you can do motorsports practically every weekend... then lucky you, I envy your freedom and resources.
As for the flick I'm talking about, I'm not talking about an abrupt jarring. I subscribe fully to believing that smooth is best. The flick I'm talking about is still very smooth... and no I don't think it's for every turn in existence. In fact... now that I think of it, it's a lot like a slalom transition; a slalom of two cones.
As for rallyx, I used the real scandi flick on only two turns. So no, I wasn't saying I use it on every turn.
Let me ask you guys this... how would you drive a Buick into a 90 right? Out in out: smooth turn in, trail brake in a bit, feather throttle after turn in before apex, unwind and throttle. Examining the turn in, there is going to be a long period of weight transfer which forces you to do a pretty long and slow turn-in in order to keep the transfer smooth, right?
Anyways... believe it or not, thanks to several of the relevant posts my question is getting answered, which is my ultimate goal. I just have to expect some NASIOC slop to be flung with it. I also know you can't have fun in your car without it getting dirty.
My apologies for calling it "grip", I didn't know what else to call it.
I'm getting the impression that rookie questions are not welcome in this section; even though I thought it was appropriate. The attitude I'm getting from some people tells either rookie questions are not allowed here, or they didn't get that I'm a rookie from the OP:
[quote=chimchimm5;16929327][B]I'm trying to improve the monkey behind the wheel first[/B], so I'm still on stock suspension (springs/struts).
... turn in can be doing without "over throwing" the weight into the set. This method feels smoother, [B]but I don't know if it's "faster"[/B].
[B] Please show me the err of my ways or whatnot.[/B][/quote]
Believe me, I *want* to go to as many autox, rallyx, track days, and driving schools as I can... but I've got a lot of other responsibilities first, namely my wife and family. NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD TO PARTICIPATE IN FREQUENT MOTORSPORTS; BOTH TIME AND MONEY. So as a result, I read A LOT. Currently I'm reading the Going Faster Skip Barber book and Milikan, and I've read several other books already. This is a hobby of mine, so I don't get to devote all my time to it. My accessible driving events are the autox, rallyx, karting, track days, and late night parking lots. And going to a Skip Barber driving school is my next "big goal". BUT UNTIL THEN... I'm gonna ask questions in the forums.
If you can do motorsports practically every weekend... then lucky you, I envy your freedom and resources.
As for the flick I'm talking about, I'm not talking about an abrupt jarring. I subscribe fully to believing that smooth is best. The flick I'm talking about is still very smooth... and no I don't think it's for every turn in existence. In fact... now that I think of it, it's a lot like a slalom transition; a slalom of two cones.
As for rallyx, I used the real scandi flick on only two turns. So no, I wasn't saying I use it on every turn.
Let me ask you guys this... how would you drive a Buick into a 90 right? Out in out: smooth turn in, trail brake in a bit, feather throttle after turn in before apex, unwind and throttle. Examining the turn in, there is going to be a long period of weight transfer which forces you to do a pretty long and slow turn-in in order to keep the transfer smooth, right?
Anyways... believe it or not, thanks to several of the relevant posts my question is getting answered, which is my ultimate goal. I just have to expect some NASIOC slop to be flung with it. I also know you can't have fun in your car without it getting dirty.
| KC | 02-05-2007 05:24 PM |
[QUOTE]and late night parking lots.[/QUOTE]
This will not help you be faster as there's no measurable result. All you're doing is playing. You will not learn anything but BAD HABITS by doing that. (Unless you own the lot and can put up cones).
Then what happens is you bring these bad habits to an event. Which results in someone (you) being let down when you get your ass kicked by someone that down on HP and traction.
As I said, and others have said, go for a ride with someone (who is of an instructor capacity, [U]not your buddy[/U]) at an event, or even ask them to drive your car. You'll quickly understand exactly what's going on.
--kC
This will not help you be faster as there's no measurable result. All you're doing is playing. You will not learn anything but BAD HABITS by doing that. (Unless you own the lot and can put up cones).
Then what happens is you bring these bad habits to an event. Which results in someone (you) being let down when you get your ass kicked by someone that down on HP and traction.
As I said, and others have said, go for a ride with someone (who is of an instructor capacity, [U]not your buddy[/U]) at an event, or even ask them to drive your car. You'll quickly understand exactly what's going on.
--kC
| chimchimm5 | 02-05-2007 05:29 PM |
[quote=KC;16941115]As I said, and others have said, go for a ride with someone (who is of an instructor capacity, [U]not your buddy[/U]) at an event, or even ask them to drive your car. You'll quickly understand exactly what's going on.[/quote]
I'm hoping to get a chance to do this at the track event I'm going to in 2 weeks.
This is one of those "to do" items I've had on my list but never have had the chance to fulfill it.
I'm hoping to get a chance to do this at the track event I'm going to in 2 weeks.
This is one of those "to do" items I've had on my list but never have had the chance to fulfill it.
| sachilles | 02-05-2007 05:29 PM |
My earlier post wasn't meant to be condescending. My apologies if that is how it sounded.
The God's honest truth is that reading is only part of the education. You really need to see and do this stuff.
I'm not knocking you because you don't have experience, I'm just saying to be patient and learn while you are doing it.
Based on your description of the problem you'll get a ton of different answers, many of which are correct to some degree. The issue is that the problem can't be full described in words. Its like when some one comes to the forum, hoping everyone can diagnose a problem with their car based on a noise they heard. Then proceed to describe the noise in written form....and before you know it, all hell breaks loose on the forum:lol:
Where you sound like you want to do a flick, I think you just want to get some cornering weight. I think you could do that with left foot braking. However, its a bitch to learn to do, and even tougher to describe how to do it well with the written word.
One book that is worth a read is the "The secrets of solo". It has a ton of this stuff....and its explained better than most of us will do.
The God's honest truth is that reading is only part of the education. You really need to see and do this stuff.
I'm not knocking you because you don't have experience, I'm just saying to be patient and learn while you are doing it.
Based on your description of the problem you'll get a ton of different answers, many of which are correct to some degree. The issue is that the problem can't be full described in words. Its like when some one comes to the forum, hoping everyone can diagnose a problem with their car based on a noise they heard. Then proceed to describe the noise in written form....and before you know it, all hell breaks loose on the forum:lol:
Where you sound like you want to do a flick, I think you just want to get some cornering weight. I think you could do that with left foot braking. However, its a bitch to learn to do, and even tougher to describe how to do it well with the written word.
One book that is worth a read is the "The secrets of solo". It has a ton of this stuff....and its explained better than most of us will do.
| chimchimm5 | 02-05-2007 05:31 PM |
[quote=sachilles;16941191] One book that is worth a read is the "The secrets of solo". It has a ton of this stuff....and its explained better than most of us will do.[/quote]
Hmmm... I have that book and read it... but it was a while back so I'm sure some things flew over my head back then. I'll have to dig it up again.
BTW, I've found that this flick technique is absolutely useless/unnecessary in karting; I was guessing because karting has hardly any compliance/weight transfer save for me leaning my big fat head one way or the other.
Hmmm... I have that book and read it... but it was a while back so I'm sure some things flew over my head back then. I'll have to dig it up again.
BTW, I've found that this flick technique is absolutely useless/unnecessary in karting; I was guessing because karting has hardly any compliance/weight transfer save for me leaning my big fat head one way or the other.
| sachilles | 02-05-2007 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;16941224]Hmmm... I have that book and read it... but it was a while back so I'm sure some things flew over my head back then. I'll have to dig it up again.
[/QUOTE]
Read the section on left foot braking and see if that describes what you are trying to do.
The book is definitely worth reading more than once.
it all comes down to the traction circle.
[/QUOTE]
Read the section on left foot braking and see if that describes what you are trying to do.
The book is definitely worth reading more than once.
it all comes down to the traction circle.
| KC | 02-05-2007 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5;16940745]I'm still appreciating the relevant responses.
My apologies for calling it "grip", I didn't know what else to call it.
I'm getting the impression that rookie questions are not welcome in this section; even though I thought it was appropriate. The attitude I'm getting from some people tells either rookie questions are not allowed here, or they didn't get that I'm a rookie from the OP:[/QUOTE]Some of these questions you've asked before. At least, some of the answers have appeared in other posts started by you over the past year.
So, some get to a point where people start recognizing a screen name, knowing they've responded to their questions, and a month or two later, find themselves answering the same question that was worded differently, again.
It comes down to... why bother re-iterating what has been said again and again?
Losing traction is slow in auto-x on a dry surface. There's no one out there that can say, or prove, otherwise. The data exists that sliding is costing you from fractions of a second to tenths of a second on regular auto-x course, and there's no one that can say without a shadow of a doubt, or have the datalogs to prove it, that traditional or late apexing is slower around a corner than the methods in which you're trying to convey.
--kC
My apologies for calling it "grip", I didn't know what else to call it.
I'm getting the impression that rookie questions are not welcome in this section; even though I thought it was appropriate. The attitude I'm getting from some people tells either rookie questions are not allowed here, or they didn't get that I'm a rookie from the OP:[/QUOTE]Some of these questions you've asked before. At least, some of the answers have appeared in other posts started by you over the past year.
So, some get to a point where people start recognizing a screen name, knowing they've responded to their questions, and a month or two later, find themselves answering the same question that was worded differently, again.
It comes down to... why bother re-iterating what has been said again and again?
Losing traction is slow in auto-x on a dry surface. There's no one out there that can say, or prove, otherwise. The data exists that sliding is costing you from fractions of a second to tenths of a second on regular auto-x course, and there's no one that can say without a shadow of a doubt, or have the datalogs to prove it, that traditional or late apexing is slower around a corner than the methods in which you're trying to convey.
--kC
| chimchimm5 | 02-05-2007 06:22 PM |
Well then my bad. I thought I was asking something different than before. Details are hard to come by. I know I've asked related questions before, but slight variations in the details make for different scenarios.
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