| sunnynw | 10-06-2004 01:56 AM |
Hi Doug,
First - Thanks for taking on this HUGE task....it is appreciated a great deal.
Second - If there is anything I can do to help this venture be successful, please do not hesitate to get in contact with me!
Regards,
Teresa
First - Thanks for taking on this HUGE task....it is appreciated a great deal.
Second - If there is anything I can do to help this venture be successful, please do not hesitate to get in contact with me!
Regards,
Teresa
| mike270 | 10-06-2004 02:13 AM |
Good news Doug. I am very glad you decided to take on this monumental task. I fully believe it can be done.
I don't know if there is anything we can do to help but if there is I think we should start making a list of volunteers. That way those who want to help in the rebuilding process can help with whatever is needed. Contacting potential sponsors, etc. There seems to be a lot of support out there. I don't know if this would be worthwhile or not since we are all basically traveling into unmarked territory but I thought I would at least throw the idea out there.
I don't know if there is anything we can do to help but if there is I think we should start making a list of volunteers. That way those who want to help in the rebuilding process can help with whatever is needed. Contacting potential sponsors, etc. There seems to be a lot of support out there. I don't know if this would be worthwhile or not since we are all basically traveling into unmarked territory but I thought I would at least throw the idea out there.
| greg donovan | 10-06-2004 02:50 AM |
doug,
in the short time that i have known you i have come to believe that you truly love rally. and i know the truth about how you got hooked on this aweome sport. your organization will do an awesome job. i have total faith in you and the rest of RA.
jens and others,
RA doesnt have membership numbers because it isnt a club. it is a group designed to promote rally in north america. and now its job just got a whole hell of alot bigger. they have greatly helped to impove the image of rallying in the USA in the last few years. the big white truck that lets me follow the rallies in my chair w/immedeate updates and results, RA. the awesome TAG HEUER clocks, RA. the training of people to work that equipment, RA.
in the short time that i have known you i have come to believe that you truly love rally. and i know the truth about how you got hooked on this aweome sport. your organization will do an awesome job. i have total faith in you and the rest of RA.
jens and others,
RA doesnt have membership numbers because it isnt a club. it is a group designed to promote rally in north america. and now its job just got a whole hell of alot bigger. they have greatly helped to impove the image of rallying in the USA in the last few years. the big white truck that lets me follow the rallies in my chair w/immedeate updates and results, RA. the awesome TAG HEUER clocks, RA. the training of people to work that equipment, RA.
| greg donovan | 10-06-2004 03:13 AM |
Doug rules!
you are my new hero! move over spiderman theres a big yellow car about to run you down!
phatsuby, this is dougs car and team:
[url]http://www.subaru.net/cpd/index.php[/url]
you are my new hero! move over spiderman theres a big yellow car about to run you down!
phatsuby, this is dougs car and team:
[url]http://www.subaru.net/cpd/index.php[/url]
| Racer5 | 10-06-2004 05:43 AM |
Viva le dictator! VIVA LE DCH!!!
I think this is great news for all of US rally.
Make us proud RA!
I think this is great news for all of US rally.
Make us proud RA!
| dch | 10-06-2004 10:26 AM |
Thanks folks, don't make me blush...
There's no way I can do this alone, I'll be relying on a number of good people to help get things done. I'm sure at some point we won't be able to please everyone all the time, but know that we will all do the best we can all the time.
Cheers,
-Doug
There's no way I can do this alone, I'll be relying on a number of good people to help get things done. I'm sure at some point we won't be able to please everyone all the time, but know that we will all do the best we can all the time.
Cheers,
-Doug
| ricochet | 10-06-2004 10:58 AM |
I do have some questions that I haven't seen answered.
I haven't read anywhere where "take the ball and run with it" is defined, Doug. I would be curious how an operation, that loves rallying (without a doubt) but has so far only provided time-keeping and web-updates (acc'd to your post above) can take any "ball" from a sanctioning orginization that has thousands of members...and run with it. The two seem like completely different businesses to me.
It's appears to be like putting a meter maid (no disrespect, but that was my best timing and scoring analogy) in as head of the police department--or at least in charge of the SWAT team. Not doubting that it can be done, but it sure seems like a lot of details are being left out of the discussion. I would assume that people would then point out that "it is in process" (acc'd to the original release) but I would not agree with that assesment, as I doubt the SCCA would announce a transitionary partner without all the blanks already filled in. Or, rather, I would *hope* they aren't that wreckless.
:huh:
Feel free to PM of contact off-list if you want to answer any of these burning (well, at least for me) questions. I'd like to make sure we get a few details ironed out before November 1st...when we plan to close the next issue of Subiesport Magazine.
:D
Ryan Douthit, Publisher
Subiesport Magazine
[url]http://www.subiesport.com[/url]
I haven't read anywhere where "take the ball and run with it" is defined, Doug. I would be curious how an operation, that loves rallying (without a doubt) but has so far only provided time-keeping and web-updates (acc'd to your post above) can take any "ball" from a sanctioning orginization that has thousands of members...and run with it. The two seem like completely different businesses to me.
It's appears to be like putting a meter maid (no disrespect, but that was my best timing and scoring analogy) in as head of the police department--or at least in charge of the SWAT team. Not doubting that it can be done, but it sure seems like a lot of details are being left out of the discussion. I would assume that people would then point out that "it is in process" (acc'd to the original release) but I would not agree with that assesment, as I doubt the SCCA would announce a transitionary partner without all the blanks already filled in. Or, rather, I would *hope* they aren't that wreckless.
:huh:
Feel free to PM of contact off-list if you want to answer any of these burning (well, at least for me) questions. I'd like to make sure we get a few details ironed out before November 1st...when we plan to close the next issue of Subiesport Magazine.
:D
Ryan Douthit, Publisher
Subiesport Magazine
[url]http://www.subiesport.com[/url]
| Jens | 10-06-2004 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE=dch]Hello Jens. A couple of observations I'd like to share...
It's not possible to go back in time. Therefore, I choose to start from here and now and do the best I can. If the worst you can come up with about Rally America is to call us "Spitzner supporters" then I guess we're not doing so bad, eh?
I don't suppose it would make any difference to you that I firmly believe a solid, affordable, entry level rally program is every bit as if not more important than a (for lack of a more well recognized term at the moment) "Pro" level program would it? Personally I think we can have both.
Anyhow, if you have any suggestions on how best to meet the needs of either end or both ends of the spectrum of competitors, please feel free to share them with me and we'll see what we can do.
Cheers,
-Doug[/QUOTE]
Hello Doug,
1. It is possible to go back somewhat.
2. By referring to Rally-America as Spitzner supporters I am not trying to trash you or your organization. Hopefully the Rally-America people recognize the errors of the NWO and not repeat them. Spitzner accomplished in 5 years what SCCA couldn't for 30+ years (killing rally). This was, in my opinion then and now, a "no brainer". I thought it would happen a year or two earlier.
3. We have never met. I don't understand why you think I question your opinion of affordable "entry level programs" being important. Should I question it?
4. I have plenty of suggestions. Ever since the Spitzner proposal of 1998 I tried to get people to realize he and his rubber stamping PRB were going to kill rally (and people). If you really mean it, then I am willing to "share" my opinions... but in a public forum. I am not one for smoke filled room, behind closed door, good ol' boy meetings.
5. If you mean what you say, then where do you want to discuss this with me? Special Stage would strike me as the place, but I got tired of being edited by Jim Konkler because I wasn't following in goosestep with the party line. Name the place, and I'll be there.
Regards,
Jens
It's not possible to go back in time. Therefore, I choose to start from here and now and do the best I can. If the worst you can come up with about Rally America is to call us "Spitzner supporters" then I guess we're not doing so bad, eh?
I don't suppose it would make any difference to you that I firmly believe a solid, affordable, entry level rally program is every bit as if not more important than a (for lack of a more well recognized term at the moment) "Pro" level program would it? Personally I think we can have both.
Anyhow, if you have any suggestions on how best to meet the needs of either end or both ends of the spectrum of competitors, please feel free to share them with me and we'll see what we can do.
Cheers,
-Doug[/QUOTE]
Hello Doug,
1. It is possible to go back somewhat.
2. By referring to Rally-America as Spitzner supporters I am not trying to trash you or your organization. Hopefully the Rally-America people recognize the errors of the NWO and not repeat them. Spitzner accomplished in 5 years what SCCA couldn't for 30+ years (killing rally). This was, in my opinion then and now, a "no brainer". I thought it would happen a year or two earlier.
3. We have never met. I don't understand why you think I question your opinion of affordable "entry level programs" being important. Should I question it?
4. I have plenty of suggestions. Ever since the Spitzner proposal of 1998 I tried to get people to realize he and his rubber stamping PRB were going to kill rally (and people). If you really mean it, then I am willing to "share" my opinions... but in a public forum. I am not one for smoke filled room, behind closed door, good ol' boy meetings.
5. If you mean what you say, then where do you want to discuss this with me? Special Stage would strike me as the place, but I got tired of being edited by Jim Konkler because I wasn't following in goosestep with the party line. Name the place, and I'll be there.
Regards,
Jens
| ricochet | 10-06-2004 11:04 AM |
If not SpecialStage.com you can have the rally forum at DrivingSports.com at your disposal:
[url]http://ww2.drivingsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5[/url]
[url]http://ww2.drivingsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5[/url]
| dch | 10-06-2004 11:33 AM |
My apologies Jens, indeed we have never met and I was perhaps mistaken in assuming you were implying that Rally America was simply going to press on with the same old concepts and methods that had been used before. I will try to keep a broader view in the future.
Rally America has forums, and I would invite you and anyone else who wants to make suggestions or discuss what they feel is important for the future of rally to post there. Special Stage is the de facto board for rally discussion, and I don't mean to slight them in any way, but a forum focused specifically on Rally America and the job we've signed up to do would seem to be a logical place for such discussions without the myriad of other rally related topics that tend to be so pervasive as to be distracting.
Feel free to register there (it's the same software as NASIOC uses) and we can discuss what we see as needing to be accomplished. Just in case anybody wonders, in no way shape or form will any personal information you register with be given to anybody ever. Death to SPAMmers, I say!
The forums are at:
[url]http://www.rally-america.com/forums/[/url]
Please don't be surprised if I don't respond immediately here in the near future. I'm so far behind right now I think I need a bulldozer to clear my inbox and voicemail. If you cut me a bit of time slack here I will do my best to try to answer questions and discuss ideas.
Back into the grinder for now... :D
Cheers,
-Doug
Rally America has forums, and I would invite you and anyone else who wants to make suggestions or discuss what they feel is important for the future of rally to post there. Special Stage is the de facto board for rally discussion, and I don't mean to slight them in any way, but a forum focused specifically on Rally America and the job we've signed up to do would seem to be a logical place for such discussions without the myriad of other rally related topics that tend to be so pervasive as to be distracting.
Feel free to register there (it's the same software as NASIOC uses) and we can discuss what we see as needing to be accomplished. Just in case anybody wonders, in no way shape or form will any personal information you register with be given to anybody ever. Death to SPAMmers, I say!
The forums are at:
[url]http://www.rally-america.com/forums/[/url]
Please don't be surprised if I don't respond immediately here in the near future. I'm so far behind right now I think I need a bulldozer to clear my inbox and voicemail. If you cut me a bit of time slack here I will do my best to try to answer questions and discuss ideas.
Back into the grinder for now... :D
Cheers,
-Doug
| 10th Warrior | 10-06-2004 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]So you don't think there's anybody else other than SCCA that can sanction rallying in the USA ?????????? They'll still be plenty of rallies. RA will be a good thing but we need to be patient and give them time and not ask or demand so many answers so soon.[/QUOTE]
when did i say that?!?! don't read into my statements. I never said, nor do i believe, that stage rally is no more in this country. i'm concerned about a number of potential ramifications from this decision of the BoD though.
anyway, the CRNC appears to be dead, but not 100AW.
I'm also concerned about some rally-x issues which is more central to my current energies, but there i can really see a possible huge opportunity, especially by 2006.
when did i say that?!?! don't read into my statements. I never said, nor do i believe, that stage rally is no more in this country. i'm concerned about a number of potential ramifications from this decision of the BoD though.
anyway, the CRNC appears to be dead, but not 100AW.
I'm also concerned about some rally-x issues which is more central to my current energies, but there i can really see a possible huge opportunity, especially by 2006.
| MK19_ | 10-06-2004 11:58 PM |
Well, SnoDrift is only 4 mos. away and for any outfit to transition that quickly so that the event is still held is, IMO, outstanding. Over the past few years the SCCA has lost its' grip on the rally circuit here in the states. I just look forward to more rally and hope for the best ;)
| Jens | 10-07-2004 12:36 AM |
[QUOTE=dch]
Rally America has forums, and I would invite you and anyone else who wants to make suggestions or discuss what they feel is important for the future of rally to post there. [/QUOTE]
Hello Doug,
I have a number of suggestions that will (and has in the past) put me at odds with many. I might wait a while to see what appears as the dust settles.
I am **VERY** troubled by something you wrote on Special Stage, specifically in this thread:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/2942.html[/url]
"In my opinion, it's neither prudent nor possible to implement remote control of the corporation by majority vote from the masses."
Regards,
Jens
Rally America has forums, and I would invite you and anyone else who wants to make suggestions or discuss what they feel is important for the future of rally to post there. [/QUOTE]
Hello Doug,
I have a number of suggestions that will (and has in the past) put me at odds with many. I might wait a while to see what appears as the dust settles.
I am **VERY** troubled by something you wrote on Special Stage, specifically in this thread:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/2942.html[/url]
"In my opinion, it's neither prudent nor possible to implement remote control of the corporation by majority vote from the masses."
Regards,
Jens
| WRXMaster | 10-07-2004 12:51 AM |
Its not a democracy .................. if I was paying the bills I would want to be in control ....... I dont think its a club anymore -- scca is gone --- now its a business ... Plus ralliest bicker too much :lol:
| Jens | 10-07-2004 01:05 AM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]Its not a democracy .................. if I was paying the bills I would want to be in control ....... I dont think its a club anymore -- scca is gone --- now its a business ... Plus ralliest bicker too much :lol:[/QUOTE]
The SCCA rally membership was not given a choice who to sell rally to. They were not even given notice.
Rallyists are not (at least they didn't used to be) homogenized, conformist, automatons. If you want that sort of control perhaps you would enjoy Formula 1 or NASCAR.
Rally survived for 25 years without the business model. The business model killed it in 5 years.
The SCCA rally membership was not given a choice who to sell rally to. They were not even given notice.
Rallyists are not (at least they didn't used to be) homogenized, conformist, automatons. If you want that sort of control perhaps you would enjoy Formula 1 or NASCAR.
Rally survived for 25 years without the business model. The business model killed it in 5 years.
| WRXMaster | 10-07-2004 01:31 AM |
[QUOTE=Jens]The SCCA rally membership was not given a choice who to sell rally to. They were not even given notice.
Rallyists are not (at least they didn't used to be) homogenized, conformist, automatons. If you want that sort of control perhaps you would enjoy Formula 1 or NASCAR.
Rally survived for 25 years without the business model. The business model killed it in 5 years.[/QUOTE]
Ummm read specialstage.com --- all they do is fight and bicker....... You have the old school "we want no spectators and only club types" Then you have the new guys who want it to look like the wrc"
World Rally Championship is a business --- they make aloooooooooooooooot of $$$$$$$$$ and have awsome exposure numbers to prove it... I have the ISC numbers somewhere on my comp I need to find them. Business model? The whole sport was directed towards the competitor.......... You go to any race and its doesnt look professional "not saying it wasnt run professinally" The towns the races are held "nobody knows about it" You have so many different classes that its hard to figure out whos winning what. Mabey 100 die hard spectators show up. Rim of the world was one of the only races to actually organize sponsors and try to make it a show. After watching wrc mexico and a british rally championship event---- Prorally is laughed at overseas ....
Prorally Championship is located in the USA- one of the biggest market in the world...... If this sport was run like a business it would be huge.
Rallyists are not (at least they didn't used to be) homogenized, conformist, automatons. If you want that sort of control perhaps you would enjoy Formula 1 or NASCAR.
Rally survived for 25 years without the business model. The business model killed it in 5 years.[/QUOTE]
Ummm read specialstage.com --- all they do is fight and bicker....... You have the old school "we want no spectators and only club types" Then you have the new guys who want it to look like the wrc"
World Rally Championship is a business --- they make aloooooooooooooooot of $$$$$$$$$ and have awsome exposure numbers to prove it... I have the ISC numbers somewhere on my comp I need to find them. Business model? The whole sport was directed towards the competitor.......... You go to any race and its doesnt look professional "not saying it wasnt run professinally" The towns the races are held "nobody knows about it" You have so many different classes that its hard to figure out whos winning what. Mabey 100 die hard spectators show up. Rim of the world was one of the only races to actually organize sponsors and try to make it a show. After watching wrc mexico and a british rally championship event---- Prorally is laughed at overseas ....
Prorally Championship is located in the USA- one of the biggest market in the world...... If this sport was run like a business it would be huge.
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 01:57 AM |
[QUOTE=Jens]. The business model killed it in 5 years.[/QUOTE]
Do you have proof that the business model was the cause of this?
Perhaps the SCCA planned on dropping rally 5 years ago and the business model actually saved it from an earlier demise
[QUOTE]The SCCA rally membership was not given a choice who to sell rally to. They were not even given notice.
[/QUOTE]
Well it is not like there is a whole lot of people stepping up to buy it :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]I am **VERY** troubled by something you wrote on Special Stage, specifically in this thread:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/c...umID2/2942.html[/url]
"In my opinion, it's neither prudent nor possible to implement remote control of the corporation by majority vote from the masses."
[/QUOTE]
Well, apparently you spend time reading SS.com, so then you should know that there is not a lot of agreement on how to handle things. If everything is left up to the masses to vote on, nothing would ever get accomplished and it would just result in a lot of bickering. I am sure Doug, et al, will listen to what rallyists have to say and will weigh their opinions and do what's best for the situation.
It seems that you don't know much about Doug or about Rally America (nor the people involved), or you would know that in just two short years they have done more for the sport than anyone, and that they are part of the family.
This was not something planned in advance, nor was there a conspiracy between the SCCA and Rally America, this was quite literally dropped in Doug's lap, and he is stepping up. Where were you?
So perhaps you should wait and see what happens before you start criticizing Doug's/Rally America's efforts, you might just like what they have to offer. If not, well, no one is forcing you to participate and then you can go back to complaining on the internet
I have been fortunate to know Doug for a few years now and I can promise you there is no one better to do this
Do you have proof that the business model was the cause of this?
Perhaps the SCCA planned on dropping rally 5 years ago and the business model actually saved it from an earlier demise
[QUOTE]The SCCA rally membership was not given a choice who to sell rally to. They were not even given notice.
[/QUOTE]
Well it is not like there is a whole lot of people stepping up to buy it :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]I am **VERY** troubled by something you wrote on Special Stage, specifically in this thread:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/c...umID2/2942.html[/url]
"In my opinion, it's neither prudent nor possible to implement remote control of the corporation by majority vote from the masses."
[/QUOTE]
Well, apparently you spend time reading SS.com, so then you should know that there is not a lot of agreement on how to handle things. If everything is left up to the masses to vote on, nothing would ever get accomplished and it would just result in a lot of bickering. I am sure Doug, et al, will listen to what rallyists have to say and will weigh their opinions and do what's best for the situation.
It seems that you don't know much about Doug or about Rally America (nor the people involved), or you would know that in just two short years they have done more for the sport than anyone, and that they are part of the family.
This was not something planned in advance, nor was there a conspiracy between the SCCA and Rally America, this was quite literally dropped in Doug's lap, and he is stepping up. Where were you?
So perhaps you should wait and see what happens before you start criticizing Doug's/Rally America's efforts, you might just like what they have to offer. If not, well, no one is forcing you to participate and then you can go back to complaining on the internet
I have been fortunate to know Doug for a few years now and I can promise you there is no one better to do this
| Jens | 10-07-2004 02:01 AM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]Ummm read specialstage.com --- all they do is fight and bicker.......
Prorally Championship is located in the USA- one of the biggest market in the world...... If this sport was run like a business it would be huge.[/QUOTE]
I am very familiar with Special Stage. It is not representative of rally. It is representative of any other internet discussion group.
The same arguments you present, money, WRC, what others think of us is the same mantra the "new world order" proponents kept chanting for the past 5 years. That group killed SCCA rally in 5 years! Prior to them SCCA rally had its ups and downs, but survived just fine for 25 years.
Back in the late 70's we had one class, Open. That is all that was needed then, and all that is needed now. Engine displacement limits should be about 7 liters and should not have any other restrictions other than to be FULLY, 100% EPA compliant. If not, some day, someone, is gonna tell the EPA, and rally will die forever. (Don't believe me if that makes you feel better).
And... by the way... WRC is another one of those homogenized conformist groups like F1 and NASCAR. Yuk!
Prorally Championship is located in the USA- one of the biggest market in the world...... If this sport was run like a business it would be huge.[/QUOTE]
I am very familiar with Special Stage. It is not representative of rally. It is representative of any other internet discussion group.
The same arguments you present, money, WRC, what others think of us is the same mantra the "new world order" proponents kept chanting for the past 5 years. That group killed SCCA rally in 5 years! Prior to them SCCA rally had its ups and downs, but survived just fine for 25 years.
Back in the late 70's we had one class, Open. That is all that was needed then, and all that is needed now. Engine displacement limits should be about 7 liters and should not have any other restrictions other than to be FULLY, 100% EPA compliant. If not, some day, someone, is gonna tell the EPA, and rally will die forever. (Don't believe me if that makes you feel better).
And... by the way... WRC is another one of those homogenized conformist groups like F1 and NASCAR. Yuk!
| Jens | 10-07-2004 02:22 AM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]Do you have proof that the business model was the cause of this?
Well it is not like there is a whole lot of people stepping up to buy it :rolleyes:
So perhaps you should wait and see what happens before you start criticizing Doug's/Rally America's efforts, you might just like what they have to offer. [/QUOTE]
You want proof? Read everything you can about PRO RALLY starting in 1972 through today. You do the legwork. You'll find the proof you seek.
How many, and which organizations, was ProRally presented to for sale? To quote you, "Do you have proof?" Was the membership notified in advance of a pending sale even though they paid for ProRally?
Stop insinuating I am trashing Doug/Rally America. Expressing a concern does not a criticism make.
Well it is not like there is a whole lot of people stepping up to buy it :rolleyes:
So perhaps you should wait and see what happens before you start criticizing Doug's/Rally America's efforts, you might just like what they have to offer. [/QUOTE]
You want proof? Read everything you can about PRO RALLY starting in 1972 through today. You do the legwork. You'll find the proof you seek.
How many, and which organizations, was ProRally presented to for sale? To quote you, "Do you have proof?" Was the membership notified in advance of a pending sale even though they paid for ProRally?
Stop insinuating I am trashing Doug/Rally America. Expressing a concern does not a criticism make.
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 03:04 AM |
[QUOTE=Jens]You want proof? Read everything you can about PRO RALLY starting in 1972 through today. You do the legwork. You'll find the proof you seek.[/QUOTE]
I have, and there is nothing that suggests that the plan led to the demise. As a matter of fact, it appears that it was outside factors (insurance companies, etc) that have led to the SCCA dropping Rally.
It is your statement, the burden of proof is on you, so don't tell me to do the leg work for you.
Not everyone wants rally to be like the 70's:rolleyes:
[quote]How many, and which organizations, was ProRally presented to for sale? To quote you, "Do you have proof?" Was the membership notified in advance of a pending sale even though they paid for ProRally?[/quote]
Well for one thing, we don't know Rally was actually for sale at all. Do you know for fact that RA actually paid something for it?
You are the one making insinuations here.
[QUOTE]Stop insinuating I am trashing Doug/Rally America. Expressing a concern does not a criticism make.[/QUOTE]
Your reputation proceeds you
And your first post confirms it
This is all good news so please don't turn this into a pissing match, if you have questions or suggestions go to the RA forum as Doug suggested
I have, and there is nothing that suggests that the plan led to the demise. As a matter of fact, it appears that it was outside factors (insurance companies, etc) that have led to the SCCA dropping Rally.
It is your statement, the burden of proof is on you, so don't tell me to do the leg work for you.
Not everyone wants rally to be like the 70's:rolleyes:
[quote]How many, and which organizations, was ProRally presented to for sale? To quote you, "Do you have proof?" Was the membership notified in advance of a pending sale even though they paid for ProRally?[/quote]
Well for one thing, we don't know Rally was actually for sale at all. Do you know for fact that RA actually paid something for it?
You are the one making insinuations here.
[QUOTE]Stop insinuating I am trashing Doug/Rally America. Expressing a concern does not a criticism make.[/QUOTE]
Your reputation proceeds you
And your first post confirms it
This is all good news so please don't turn this into a pissing match, if you have questions or suggestions go to the RA forum as Doug suggested
| dch | 10-07-2004 06:32 AM |
Oooo! 7 liter turbo rally car! Boy would I like to have a go at one of those... :D
I have to catch a flight to Topeka here right quick, but I had to agree with Jens first. He's not badmouthing me or RA. He has expressed concern that we won't do what he believes is right. I can practically guarantee we won't do everything he thinks we should, but that doesn't mean he can't tell us what he wants. I wasn't rallying in the 70's, so if he has an analysis of what was done then and why it worked or worked better than where things are today I'm all ears. More information usually makes for better decisions.
I'll be back... (Hey, I could govern California with a phrase like that, eh?) ;)
Cheers,
-Doug
I have to catch a flight to Topeka here right quick, but I had to agree with Jens first. He's not badmouthing me or RA. He has expressed concern that we won't do what he believes is right. I can practically guarantee we won't do everything he thinks we should, but that doesn't mean he can't tell us what he wants. I wasn't rallying in the 70's, so if he has an analysis of what was done then and why it worked or worked better than where things are today I'm all ears. More information usually makes for better decisions.
I'll be back... (Hey, I could govern California with a phrase like that, eh?) ;)
Cheers,
-Doug
| rallynutdon | 10-07-2004 08:08 AM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]when did i say that?!?! .[/QUOTE]
This statement implies that to me. Otherwise why would you not continue to build your car?????? I guess I should be allowed to read into things as much as the next guy?
"it does make me wonder if I should continue to sink time and money into the Golf though."
This statement implies that to me. Otherwise why would you not continue to build your car?????? I guess I should be allowed to read into things as much as the next guy?
"it does make me wonder if I should continue to sink time and money into the Golf though."
| Jon Bogert | 10-07-2004 09:33 AM |
[QUOTE]I have, and there is nothing that suggests that the plan led to the demise.[/QUOTE]The problem, according to me:
1) Excessive promotion of rally by Kurt et al lead to more noob spectators and more noob drivers who hadn't worked their way up and learned about the sport before they jumped in.
2) The availability of WRXs and EVOs brought obscene stage speed to the masses. No effort was made to tailor the capabilities of the cars to the capabilities of the drivers. Prior to the New World Order (as Jens so aptly christened them, IIRC) the only people who had that level of performance were the veterans like Buffum, Millen, Carl Merrill, Henry Joy, etc. who could handle themselves.
3) The SCCA allowed Subaru and Mitsubishi to basically do whatever they want.
4) Much like the late '90s economy, everything looked easy, money poured in and the sport grew completely out of control. Also like the late '90s, everyone assumed that this was a new paradigm and all the experience and history of PRO Rally was tossed out.
5) Marketing and promotion dominated over good management. The Pro Rally Board was made powerless. There was no one at the helm taking the long view. WRC? FIA? Group N? Cool stuff, but that has no place in the USA.
That's my view from the lower middle class of rally. Now Morgan, you were/are part of the that marketing/promotion machine. You benefitted directly from the manufacturers and stood to gain directly from "The Plan". So of course you have that viewpoint.
1) Excessive promotion of rally by Kurt et al lead to more noob spectators and more noob drivers who hadn't worked their way up and learned about the sport before they jumped in.
2) The availability of WRXs and EVOs brought obscene stage speed to the masses. No effort was made to tailor the capabilities of the cars to the capabilities of the drivers. Prior to the New World Order (as Jens so aptly christened them, IIRC) the only people who had that level of performance were the veterans like Buffum, Millen, Carl Merrill, Henry Joy, etc. who could handle themselves.
3) The SCCA allowed Subaru and Mitsubishi to basically do whatever they want.
4) Much like the late '90s economy, everything looked easy, money poured in and the sport grew completely out of control. Also like the late '90s, everyone assumed that this was a new paradigm and all the experience and history of PRO Rally was tossed out.
5) Marketing and promotion dominated over good management. The Pro Rally Board was made powerless. There was no one at the helm taking the long view. WRC? FIA? Group N? Cool stuff, but that has no place in the USA.
That's my view from the lower middle class of rally. Now Morgan, you were/are part of the that marketing/promotion machine. You benefitted directly from the manufacturers and stood to gain directly from "The Plan". So of course you have that viewpoint.
| RB5 Clone | 10-07-2004 10:45 AM |
Geesh -- chill out, people....
�
�
So much has gotten posted in the last couple days that it seems like years since we heard that SCCA was opting out.
Well, pleez remember that it was only TWO DAYS AGO. Lots of questions still to work thru, they are NOT gonna get squared away for a few months at least.
I agree with Morgan, that RA has brought a level of organization and professionalism sorely lacking in SCCA rally. Traveling coast to coast from event to event as our team has done, it was obvious that the consistency in timing, scoring and control operation that RA brought was doing nothing but good to the series.
Now rally has been tossed out by SCCA, and it seems like there's consensus among the great howling group of rally enthusiasts like I've never seen--i.e., this is a good thing, a chance to start over. Consensus? In rally people? Unheard of.
So let's let committed folks like dch and RA and NASA pick up the pieces, and have the rally community pitch in and help where we can. They are RALLY PEOPLE, not bureaucrats. This is a Freakin Good Thing, OK???!!
Please be aware that there is a sterling example of a similar situation in Canada. The overall governing body dumped rallying, and it was picked up by a crew of dedicated rally nuts who have done great things for their sport. The current head of CARS is a former top codriver who has personally taken an interest in making Canadian rallying the best it can be...and it's working. He's personally out on the stages, checking in with the crews strapped into their cars at controls to see that we're safe -- but he still wants us to go as fast as we possibly can. How great izz THAT??!!
Having a real rally fanatic/car owner/leadfoot-driver guy like dch at the helm of US rally makes me very very psyched. Here's an example of why: I remember him standing at the side of the road at Maine Forest this year; he'd just whacked a big rock over a blind crest and torn the whole right front corner off his shiny yellow Prodrive STi. As we flew by at maybe 80 mph, Doug was pointing at the offending rock, shaking his head to say "BAD rock! Don't hit him!" Thanks to this little bit of guidance, we didn't.
If this is what he can do for US rallying in a larger sense, I'm all for it.
Cheers,
Dave G
:banana:
Well, pleez remember that it was only TWO DAYS AGO. Lots of questions still to work thru, they are NOT gonna get squared away for a few months at least.
I agree with Morgan, that RA has brought a level of organization and professionalism sorely lacking in SCCA rally. Traveling coast to coast from event to event as our team has done, it was obvious that the consistency in timing, scoring and control operation that RA brought was doing nothing but good to the series.
Now rally has been tossed out by SCCA, and it seems like there's consensus among the great howling group of rally enthusiasts like I've never seen--i.e., this is a good thing, a chance to start over. Consensus? In rally people? Unheard of.
So let's let committed folks like dch and RA and NASA pick up the pieces, and have the rally community pitch in and help where we can. They are RALLY PEOPLE, not bureaucrats. This is a Freakin Good Thing, OK???!!
Please be aware that there is a sterling example of a similar situation in Canada. The overall governing body dumped rallying, and it was picked up by a crew of dedicated rally nuts who have done great things for their sport. The current head of CARS is a former top codriver who has personally taken an interest in making Canadian rallying the best it can be...and it's working. He's personally out on the stages, checking in with the crews strapped into their cars at controls to see that we're safe -- but he still wants us to go as fast as we possibly can. How great izz THAT??!!
Having a real rally fanatic/car owner/leadfoot-driver guy like dch at the helm of US rally makes me very very psyched. Here's an example of why: I remember him standing at the side of the road at Maine Forest this year; he'd just whacked a big rock over a blind crest and torn the whole right front corner off his shiny yellow Prodrive STi. As we flew by at maybe 80 mph, Doug was pointing at the offending rock, shaking his head to say "BAD rock! Don't hit him!" Thanks to this little bit of guidance, we didn't.
If this is what he can do for US rallying in a larger sense, I'm all for it.
Cheers,
Dave G
:banana:
| Chromer | 10-07-2004 10:57 AM |
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]The problem, according to me:
2) The availability of WRXs and EVOs brought obscene stage speed to the masses. No effort was made to tailor the capabilities of the cars to the capabilities of the drivers. Prior to the New World Order (as Jens so aptly christened them, IIRC) the only people who had that level of performance were the veterans like Buffum, Millen, Carl Merrill, Henry Joy, etc. who could handle themselves.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not buying that one. There was nothing to stop someone from dropping a metric buttload of cash into a firebreathing Quattro or Galant or Talon or Celica All-Trac. No turbo inlet restrictor either...
Granted, tires, suspension and engine-management are better every year, but there is no technical reason why an 80's or early 90's car couldn't be just as quick as one of this year's open-class cars, and a n00b with enough play money could have run one in his first event, same as today.
2) The availability of WRXs and EVOs brought obscene stage speed to the masses. No effort was made to tailor the capabilities of the cars to the capabilities of the drivers. Prior to the New World Order (as Jens so aptly christened them, IIRC) the only people who had that level of performance were the veterans like Buffum, Millen, Carl Merrill, Henry Joy, etc. who could handle themselves.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not buying that one. There was nothing to stop someone from dropping a metric buttload of cash into a firebreathing Quattro or Galant or Talon or Celica All-Trac. No turbo inlet restrictor either...
Granted, tires, suspension and engine-management are better every year, but there is no technical reason why an 80's or early 90's car couldn't be just as quick as one of this year's open-class cars, and a n00b with enough play money could have run one in his first event, same as today.
| Jens | 10-07-2004 11:45 AM |
[QUOTE=dch]Oooo! 7 liter turbo rally car! Boy would I like to have a go at one of those... :D
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't. I'm a wuss. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option. There are people that can handle that level of horsepower. Of course that assumes they use common sense, and are aware of the risks.
Jens "Nostradamus" Larsen predicts: over the next weeks and months you will be inundated with calls for spec classes, and Briggs&Stratton powered rally cars for beginners. Some of those people are my friends, but I respectfully disagree with them (and will bash them upside their heads to knock some sense into them the next time I see them :-)
The "low horsepower equals safety" advocates ignore the most important safety feature of all... common sense!
The past 5 years rally was sold to the masses as an "extreme sport". I said then, and now, that phrase does a great disservice to the sport. Rally is a great sport, but it is an extremely dangerous sport. Those who fail to recognize that, are doomed to at best have no place to play, and at worst...die.
People will try to convince you that seed 8 (etc) drivers should not be in high horsepower cars. My answer to that is Lovell/Higgins.
Beginners should be shown the dangers. Many disagree with me, but accident scene reports and photographs should be part of the training for beginners. You cannot dictate nor legislate common sense, but you can educate them and hope they absorb some of the warnings.
Regards,
Jens
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't. I'm a wuss. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option. There are people that can handle that level of horsepower. Of course that assumes they use common sense, and are aware of the risks.
Jens "Nostradamus" Larsen predicts: over the next weeks and months you will be inundated with calls for spec classes, and Briggs&Stratton powered rally cars for beginners. Some of those people are my friends, but I respectfully disagree with them (and will bash them upside their heads to knock some sense into them the next time I see them :-)
The "low horsepower equals safety" advocates ignore the most important safety feature of all... common sense!
The past 5 years rally was sold to the masses as an "extreme sport". I said then, and now, that phrase does a great disservice to the sport. Rally is a great sport, but it is an extremely dangerous sport. Those who fail to recognize that, are doomed to at best have no place to play, and at worst...die.
People will try to convince you that seed 8 (etc) drivers should not be in high horsepower cars. My answer to that is Lovell/Higgins.
Beginners should be shown the dangers. Many disagree with me, but accident scene reports and photographs should be part of the training for beginners. You cannot dictate nor legislate common sense, but you can educate them and hope they absorb some of the warnings.
Regards,
Jens
| 10th Warrior | 10-07-2004 11:54 AM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]This statement implies that to me. Otherwise why would you not continue to build your car?????? I guess I should be allowed to read into things as much as the next guy?
"it does make me wonder if I should continue to sink time and money into the Golf though."[/QUOTE]
right, while it seems like RA may well base their rules on the PRR as NASA did, i'm not sure that i want to spend my very limited finances on something until there is once again a guiding light. if you'd bothered to read the rest of my post, you would have seen my concern about 100AW still happening. look at my location. its the only rally anywhere close to hear. lets see, TN for NASA is the closest. then there is Paris, TX, and who knows what's going to happen there. other then that, the CO/MI/MN events are all over a 10 hour tow from here. having a car i can't use is not worth my time and money. now, that being said, since i made that post, i've been talking with Kim and will hopefully be working on the car tonight.
reading stuff in is pretty pointless. i mean, i could say from your post that you think the moon landing was a hoax, but that doesn't make it so ;) cheers, man! to rally!
"it does make me wonder if I should continue to sink time and money into the Golf though."[/QUOTE]
right, while it seems like RA may well base their rules on the PRR as NASA did, i'm not sure that i want to spend my very limited finances on something until there is once again a guiding light. if you'd bothered to read the rest of my post, you would have seen my concern about 100AW still happening. look at my location. its the only rally anywhere close to hear. lets see, TN for NASA is the closest. then there is Paris, TX, and who knows what's going to happen there. other then that, the CO/MI/MN events are all over a 10 hour tow from here. having a car i can't use is not worth my time and money. now, that being said, since i made that post, i've been talking with Kim and will hopefully be working on the car tonight.
reading stuff in is pretty pointless. i mean, i could say from your post that you think the moon landing was a hoax, but that doesn't make it so ;) cheers, man! to rally!
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 12:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]The problem, according to me:
1) Excessive promotion of rally by Kurt et al lead to more noob spectators and more noob drivers who hadn't worked their way up and learned about the sport before they jumped in.[/QUOTE]
What Promotion? I did not see any advertising for the events or any PR surrounding them besides a small press release at the end and a small TV show that randomly aired (which started BTW long before Kurt ever came around). People that lived in the towns that we were visiting did not even know about the events taking place. There was no posters, or anything to give out (until after Kurt left)
If anything is to blame, it would be, as you say the availability of Evo's and WRX's to the public and the broadcast of WRC which brought the sport awareness. It was not entirely Kurts doing
How come spectators is not a problem for Canada (or any other countries)? I have been to rallies in Canada with nearly 10k spectators
noob drivers is a rules issue, not something that marketing of the sport has to do with. I agree that something has to be done, but remember, the two big accidents did not involve noobs, quite the contrary.
I have always said that new competitors should be forced to start in low HP cars, but go onto SS and announce that and you will have just as many arguing against it
[quote]2) The availability of WRXs and EVOs brought obscene stage speed to the masses. No effort was made to tailor the capabilities of the cars to the capabilities of the drivers. Prior to the New World Order (as Jens so aptly christened them, IIRC) the only people who had that level of performance were the veterans like Buffum, Millen, Carl Merrill, Henry Joy, etc. who could handle themselves.[/quote]
That is arguable, but I will buy that.
And how many Quattros did Buffum ball up?
And then you have people advocating Group F on ss.com where really "cheap" cars are supposedly going to be "as fast" as the AWD cars, how is that any better?
[quote]3) The SCCA allowed Subaru and Mitsubishi to basically do whatever they want.[/quote]
Not entirely true, but they were putting a lot of money into the sport. so how does that kill the sport? How did that effect you?
[quote]4) Much like the late '90s economy, everything looked easy, money poured in and the sport grew completely out of control. Also like the late '90s, everyone assumed that this was a new paradigm and all the experience and history of PRO Rally was tossed out.[/quote]
I don't buy that because for the past year the sport has gone back to the place it was before the "NWO" and two real ralliests are at the helm and apparently it did not help.
[quote]5) Marketing and promotion dominated over good management. The Pro Rally Board was made powerless. There was no one at the helm taking the long view. WRC? FIA? Group N? Cool stuff, but that has no place in the USA.[/quote]
Again, what marketing and promotion? If anything I believe the SCCA completely dropped the ball in that area.
[quote]That's my view from the lower middle class of rally. Now Morgan, you were/are part of the that marketing/promotion machine. You benefitted directly from the manufacturers and stood to gain directly from "The Plan". So of course you have that viewpoint.[/QUOTE]
Has nothing to do with it, but excuse me for providing a service that helps the sport.
Jens is claiming it killed it, I am asking him to prove it. How do you know that the plan was not Rally's last chance for the SCCA to save the program? I'd argue that the sport was not providing enough financial return to even cover it's costs, and that is what has led to the SCCA dropping Rally.
What is the point of bitching about the SCCA now? It does not matter, so put your efforts into helping
It is not dead yet, so no one killed anything, it's just a flesh wound ;)
1) Excessive promotion of rally by Kurt et al lead to more noob spectators and more noob drivers who hadn't worked their way up and learned about the sport before they jumped in.[/QUOTE]
What Promotion? I did not see any advertising for the events or any PR surrounding them besides a small press release at the end and a small TV show that randomly aired (which started BTW long before Kurt ever came around). People that lived in the towns that we were visiting did not even know about the events taking place. There was no posters, or anything to give out (until after Kurt left)
If anything is to blame, it would be, as you say the availability of Evo's and WRX's to the public and the broadcast of WRC which brought the sport awareness. It was not entirely Kurts doing
How come spectators is not a problem for Canada (or any other countries)? I have been to rallies in Canada with nearly 10k spectators
noob drivers is a rules issue, not something that marketing of the sport has to do with. I agree that something has to be done, but remember, the two big accidents did not involve noobs, quite the contrary.
I have always said that new competitors should be forced to start in low HP cars, but go onto SS and announce that and you will have just as many arguing against it
[quote]2) The availability of WRXs and EVOs brought obscene stage speed to the masses. No effort was made to tailor the capabilities of the cars to the capabilities of the drivers. Prior to the New World Order (as Jens so aptly christened them, IIRC) the only people who had that level of performance were the veterans like Buffum, Millen, Carl Merrill, Henry Joy, etc. who could handle themselves.[/quote]
That is arguable, but I will buy that.
And how many Quattros did Buffum ball up?
And then you have people advocating Group F on ss.com where really "cheap" cars are supposedly going to be "as fast" as the AWD cars, how is that any better?
[quote]3) The SCCA allowed Subaru and Mitsubishi to basically do whatever they want.[/quote]
Not entirely true, but they were putting a lot of money into the sport. so how does that kill the sport? How did that effect you?
[quote]4) Much like the late '90s economy, everything looked easy, money poured in and the sport grew completely out of control. Also like the late '90s, everyone assumed that this was a new paradigm and all the experience and history of PRO Rally was tossed out.[/quote]
I don't buy that because for the past year the sport has gone back to the place it was before the "NWO" and two real ralliests are at the helm and apparently it did not help.
[quote]5) Marketing and promotion dominated over good management. The Pro Rally Board was made powerless. There was no one at the helm taking the long view. WRC? FIA? Group N? Cool stuff, but that has no place in the USA.[/quote]
Again, what marketing and promotion? If anything I believe the SCCA completely dropped the ball in that area.
[quote]That's my view from the lower middle class of rally. Now Morgan, you were/are part of the that marketing/promotion machine. You benefitted directly from the manufacturers and stood to gain directly from "The Plan". So of course you have that viewpoint.[/QUOTE]
Has nothing to do with it, but excuse me for providing a service that helps the sport.
Jens is claiming it killed it, I am asking him to prove it. How do you know that the plan was not Rally's last chance for the SCCA to save the program? I'd argue that the sport was not providing enough financial return to even cover it's costs, and that is what has led to the SCCA dropping Rally.
What is the point of bitching about the SCCA now? It does not matter, so put your efforts into helping
It is not dead yet, so no one killed anything, it's just a flesh wound ;)
| WRXMaster | 10-07-2004 01:01 PM |
[QUOTE=Jens]I
Jens "Nostradamus" Larsen predicts: over the next weeks and months you will be inundated with calls for spec classes, and Briggs&Stratton powered rally cars for beginners. Some of those people are my friends, but I respectfully disagree with them (and will bash them upside their heads to knock some sense into them the next time I see them :-)
A ONE MAKE CLASS WOULD BE GREAT........... MAKE CARS EQUAL = GOOD RACING........... I currently run pgt and that class is WRX dominante......... you can throw in sti diffs/engine management ect $$$$ A cheap 1 make series where the motor is welded shut would be awsome.
The past 5 years rally was sold to the masses as an "extreme sport". I said then, and now, that phrase does a great disservice to the sport. Rally is a great sport, but it is an extremely dangerous sport. Those who fail to recognize that, are doomed to at best have no place to play, and at worst...die.
All motorsports are dangerous
Jens "Nostradamus" Larsen predicts: over the next weeks and months you will be inundated with calls for spec classes, and Briggs&Stratton powered rally cars for beginners. Some of those people are my friends, but I respectfully disagree with them (and will bash them upside their heads to knock some sense into them the next time I see them :-)
A ONE MAKE CLASS WOULD BE GREAT........... MAKE CARS EQUAL = GOOD RACING........... I currently run pgt and that class is WRX dominante......... you can throw in sti diffs/engine management ect $$$$ A cheap 1 make series where the motor is welded shut would be awsome.
The past 5 years rally was sold to the masses as an "extreme sport". I said then, and now, that phrase does a great disservice to the sport. Rally is a great sport, but it is an extremely dangerous sport. Those who fail to recognize that, are doomed to at best have no place to play, and at worst...die.
All motorsports are dangerous
| rallynutdon | 10-07-2004 01:58 PM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone]Please be aware that there is a sterling example of a similar situation in Canada. The overall governing body dumped rallying, and it was picked up by a crew of dedicated rally nuts
Cheers,
Dave G
:banana:[/QUOTE]
Hey, I resemble that remark :D
Cheers,
Dave G
:banana:[/QUOTE]
Hey, I resemble that remark :D
| rallynutdon | 10-07-2004 02:00 PM |
[QUOTE=Jens] Some of those people are my friends, but I respectfully disagree with them (and will bash them upside their heads to knock some sense into them the next time I see them :-)
Regards,
Jens[/QUOTE]
I dare you to show your face. When's the last time we saw your puss anywhere? Come out of the closet ;)
Regards,
Jens[/QUOTE]
I dare you to show your face. When's the last time we saw your puss anywhere? Come out of the closet ;)
| gswrx | 10-07-2004 02:04 PM |
Maybe it will help the future of the program
G
G
| wvonkessler | 10-07-2004 03:00 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]right, while it seems like RA may well base their rules on the PRR as NASA did . . .[/QUOTE]
No, NASA's rules were based on Motorsports New Zealand's and CARS, due to copyright concerns.
No, NASA's rules were based on Motorsports New Zealand's and CARS, due to copyright concerns.
| 10th Warrior | 10-07-2004 03:38 PM |
[QUOTE=wvonkessler]No, NASA's rules were based on Motorsports New Zealand's and CARS, due to copyright concerns.[/QUOTE]
riiiIIIiight ;)
riiiIIIiight ;)
| TV3WRX | 10-07-2004 03:49 PM |
This thread is kinda funny. I love rally, but c'mon. Rally has never been over-promoted in the US. It's not even a pimple on the arse of mainstream motorsports here, nor has it ever been. It has never suffered from too many drivers, noob or otherwise, nor too many spectators. Availability of AWD (WRX/EVO, originally Celica and GTX) cars is probably the best thing to happen to it, not the worst. But that was a squandered opportunity. And some of you badmouth SOA and Mitsu for daring to support rally with their dollars and participation? Rally has historically been it's own worst enemy, with that prevalent "we're too special to be commercial" attitude. Big fish in the little pond type mentality. Like Mullahs. SCCA certainly did nothing to help. So, this was inevitable. I do hope someone with some vision jumps in to fill the void, with a better concept, better philosophy, one that can work, attract a sponsor or two, be viable, attract new participants, stage accessible, meaningful events, and survive. Until that happens, people who aspire to drive competively will be better off taking their hard-earned money to Spec Miata, Karting, track day clubs, autocross, or whatever. (And rally will still be the "Curling" of motorsports.) You can't really blame them, can you?
| Jon Bogert | 10-07-2004 04:11 PM |
Several of you correctly point out that the job the SCCA did promoting and marketing rally sucked pretty badly. That's sort of true. Did they succeed in bringing in big-dollar sponsors and getting two hours of rally coverage every Sunday night on ESPN? No. But they did succeed in getting a thousand WRX-driving wannabes to descend on Wellsboro, drive through town in first gear at 5000 RPM and go pretend up on the dirt roads until they blew out a sidewall or ripped off a bumper. :lol:
But all that aside, my point was that the marketing department--no matter how ineffectual they were at marketing--was running the show. And that meant that all operational and rule changes were designed to fulfill that marketing department's myopic view of how rally should work at the expense of the competitors, the organizers and everyone else. Except maybe the SOA guys, who probably enjoyed having their boots licked.
THAT was the problem.
Maybe if the marketing department had been good at their job the damage they did would be forgivable, since we'd all have major corporations sponsoring us and tire companies begging us to accept their free tires. Not quite how it worked out though. :rolleyes:
But all that aside, my point was that the marketing department--no matter how ineffectual they were at marketing--was running the show. And that meant that all operational and rule changes were designed to fulfill that marketing department's myopic view of how rally should work at the expense of the competitors, the organizers and everyone else. Except maybe the SOA guys, who probably enjoyed having their boots licked.
THAT was the problem.
Maybe if the marketing department had been good at their job the damage they did would be forgivable, since we'd all have major corporations sponsoring us and tire companies begging us to accept their free tires. Not quite how it worked out though. :rolleyes:
| TV3WRX | 10-07-2004 04:34 PM |
Jon, I can buy some of what you explained above, but only some. I'd say the only mistake the marketing folks make is to try and market something that cannot really be marketed until it's changed to actually be marketable. But neither the SCCA nor the participation base have had the vision evolve it. Having wannabees who "pretend" is not a bad thing; all sports revolve around that, even though wannabees may look silly to the purists. Sports are a business, built on wannabees. No, wannabees, no business, no sponsors, no sport. All sponsors, including SOA, love having their boots licked. Without fail. It's just a fact of life. Small price to pay. Rally needs to accept this, along with a host of other doses of modern reality, not to mention a tough economy.
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 04:37 PM |
[QUOTE]But they did succeed in getting a thousand WRX-driving wannabes to descend on Wellsboro, drive through town in first gear at 5000 RPM and go pretend up on the dirt roads until they blew out a sidewall or ripped off a bumper.
[/QUOTE]
Credit/blame for that is not of anything that the SCCA did, they were not responsible for creating such a car or bringing it to America. Enthusiasm for the car and the sport came both naturally and due to the marketing efforts of Subaru.
If you read the post on the SCCA forum, one of the SCCA people describes rally as "having a teen driver listed on the families insurance dragging the cost up for the whole family"
perhaps if the teen got a job to pay more of it's share of insurance....
As you well know, both accidents were completely freak accidents and none of the parties involved were noobs attracted to the sport by any "new world order". I still see no proof that this NWO is what "killed" rally,as Jens suggests.
We could be just as well in the same position now if the sport stayed some underground affair that runs in the middle of the night, and the only way to know about it is through word of mouth, like in the "good ol days"
[/QUOTE]
Credit/blame for that is not of anything that the SCCA did, they were not responsible for creating such a car or bringing it to America. Enthusiasm for the car and the sport came both naturally and due to the marketing efforts of Subaru.
If you read the post on the SCCA forum, one of the SCCA people describes rally as "having a teen driver listed on the families insurance dragging the cost up for the whole family"
perhaps if the teen got a job to pay more of it's share of insurance....
As you well know, both accidents were completely freak accidents and none of the parties involved were noobs attracted to the sport by any "new world order". I still see no proof that this NWO is what "killed" rally,as Jens suggests.
We could be just as well in the same position now if the sport stayed some underground affair that runs in the middle of the night, and the only way to know about it is through word of mouth, like in the "good ol days"
| Jon Bogert | 10-07-2004 05:07 PM |
[QUOTE]As you well know, both accidents were completely freak accidents and none of the parties involved were noobs attracted to the sport by any "new world order". [/QUOTE]As you may not know, one of the THREE fatal accidents was a red-mist noob in an open class turbo AWD car. Don't know what attracted him, though.
| Jens | 10-07-2004 05:23 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]I still see no proof that this NWO is what "killed" rally,as Jens suggests.[/QUOTE]
If your view prevails, then rally in the U.S. is doomed.
We will see who is right soon enough.
If your view prevails, then rally in the U.S. is doomed.
We will see who is right soon enough.
| joey1313 | 10-07-2004 05:38 PM |
Some ramblings from an outsider who knows nothing about rally in the US.
I am from Louisiana and have never seen a Rally in the US. I never even knew they existed till I bought a WRX not too long ago. All I had ever seen was the Pikes Peak race. Don't know if that was SCCA rally or not. I have gone to rallies in europe when I lived in Germany. Didn't speak the language, but I knew they were racing. Maybe that tells you something about the previous marketing attempts. We love anything with a motor that races in the south;). Heck, I know more about Swamp Buggy racing than rally in the US. Maybe cause they used to show that all the time on TNT. Enough of marketing...yall get the point.
Now some more ramblings on classes and cars.
One class would suck, even with the limit being 7 liters. Only the guys with enough money to afford to be at the limit of the rules could compete. Look at F1, if you ain't the richest team, you can't compete. I like multiple classes for varying skill and monetary levels. SCCA does fine with road racing. Speed channel is showing a show on every single race from the RunOffs. Why can't rally get the same coverage and major sponsership?
Why are people complaining about noobs?
Maybe RA can make classes that maximize participation. Road racing and autox have been very successful at this. I think bringing noobs(like me) into the sport is the only way it will grow and become successful. Even the best driver was a noob once. The wannabees with WRX's are the future of your sport. Embrace them, help them to learn. The only way for rally to get sponsers\coverage is to grow. Autox is a good example. It was stagnant. They added the ST classes and embraced noobs with riced out hondas and participation rose sharply(at least in the regions near me).
Almost the end of my idiotic ramblings on a subject I know nothing about :)
Some here seem to have a high and mighty attitude. Rally can be aloof and only for the elite super duper i've been involved in rally since 1924 crowd and wither away so that memories of the good ole days when we used to race are all thats left(How you like dat runon sentence). All office politics on here is crap. Leave the past in the past. I like dch's attitude. Screw the past. We start from right now. Learn from the mistakes of others and move forward to make RA the best that it can be.
Its going to be a long hard road for Doug and his company. Give him some slack. It will take years before this can be judged as successful or not. Don't whine and cry when decisions are made the you do not like. Suck it up and do everything that YOU can do to improve the sport. If everyone worked as hard at improving the sport as they did at whining and complaining, the sport won't take years to get back on its feet.
My hat's off to you Doug and RA.
THE END
I am from Louisiana and have never seen a Rally in the US. I never even knew they existed till I bought a WRX not too long ago. All I had ever seen was the Pikes Peak race. Don't know if that was SCCA rally or not. I have gone to rallies in europe when I lived in Germany. Didn't speak the language, but I knew they were racing. Maybe that tells you something about the previous marketing attempts. We love anything with a motor that races in the south;). Heck, I know more about Swamp Buggy racing than rally in the US. Maybe cause they used to show that all the time on TNT. Enough of marketing...yall get the point.
Now some more ramblings on classes and cars.
One class would suck, even with the limit being 7 liters. Only the guys with enough money to afford to be at the limit of the rules could compete. Look at F1, if you ain't the richest team, you can't compete. I like multiple classes for varying skill and monetary levels. SCCA does fine with road racing. Speed channel is showing a show on every single race from the RunOffs. Why can't rally get the same coverage and major sponsership?
Why are people complaining about noobs?
Maybe RA can make classes that maximize participation. Road racing and autox have been very successful at this. I think bringing noobs(like me) into the sport is the only way it will grow and become successful. Even the best driver was a noob once. The wannabees with WRX's are the future of your sport. Embrace them, help them to learn. The only way for rally to get sponsers\coverage is to grow. Autox is a good example. It was stagnant. They added the ST classes and embraced noobs with riced out hondas and participation rose sharply(at least in the regions near me).
Almost the end of my idiotic ramblings on a subject I know nothing about :)
Some here seem to have a high and mighty attitude. Rally can be aloof and only for the elite super duper i've been involved in rally since 1924 crowd and wither away so that memories of the good ole days when we used to race are all thats left(How you like dat runon sentence). All office politics on here is crap. Leave the past in the past. I like dch's attitude. Screw the past. We start from right now. Learn from the mistakes of others and move forward to make RA the best that it can be.
Its going to be a long hard road for Doug and his company. Give him some slack. It will take years before this can be judged as successful or not. Don't whine and cry when decisions are made the you do not like. Suck it up and do everything that YOU can do to improve the sport. If everyone worked as hard at improving the sport as they did at whining and complaining, the sport won't take years to get back on its feet.
My hat's off to you Doug and RA.
THE END
| TV3WRX | 10-07-2004 06:12 PM |
Great post. :)
A great start for rally would be to lose the term NOOB, and figure out what to do with it's aspiring competitors, assuming there still are a few.
A great start for rally would be to lose the term NOOB, and figure out what to do with it's aspiring competitors, assuming there still are a few.
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 06:26 PM |
Great Post Joey!
| joey1313 | 10-07-2004 06:27 PM |
Thank you
| mike270 | 10-07-2004 07:24 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]Great Post Joey![/QUOTE]
^^^^
^^^^
| Jon Bogert | 10-07-2004 10:22 PM |
Um, Morgan, Joey just advocated everything that the NWO was against... :confused: Attaboy Joey, indeed! A fresh voice who hasn't been exposed to all the corruption and controversy. Throw out Group N! Bring on STS and STX!
| johnfelstead | 10-07-2004 10:28 PM |
it might serve well to take a look outside the USA to how a more established country handles rallying.
Most people think rally in the UK is the British Rally Championship. Far from it, BRC is the absolute minority series in the UK, most competitors run in other series to diferent rules and the sport is thriving at all levels as a result. We have regional and national series for both tarmac and forest rallies taking in single venue club rallies on disused airfields through to events using the forests that Rally GB use (plus the forests that used to be used when the RAC rally was a proper event over 5 days).
I have followed USA rallying for a few years because of the friends i have competing over there, and i am constantly confused by some of the stuctures you have in place such as driver classes. Over here you have 3 licence levels and those levels (based on experience) control the type of events you can participate in, you have to build some experience in the lower club events before you can take to the more demanding events. What this doesnt do is limit what car you can use, but it does mean you have an idea of what you are getting into before you takle a longer, more demanding event.
The class structures we have are engine size and wheel driven based, if you have a limited budget you can compete in a class that is cheap yet still have a great scrap, my first rallies were in a 998cc car, fighting against other similar cars, it was great fun. I worked my way through the sport, eventually switching to the service team side of things when we were running full GroupA spec cars at National Championship level under rules that kept the costs much lower than BRC, similar to open class i would suspect.
The MSA oversee the safety rules for the entire countries rally series, but the championships controlled the technical and class regulations around the guidlines in the MSA rule book. On safety matters such as engine power we were capped at FIA levels so run 34mm restrictors. This makes sense from the point of view of parts supply and it also saves money on transmition and engine loading, plus you dont kill the tyres quite so quickly either.
Not sure what i am trying to say :lol: apart from take a look elsewhere, not at the headline championships, but at what the majority of rallyists are doing, BTRDA would be a great series for you to look at and pick ideas from that would be doable in the USA, i see that series as most relevent to the level of participation you have in the USA right now.
this is the website of the MSA [url]http://www.msauk.org/[/url] and here is the BTRDA [url]http://www.btrda.com/[/url] my team led this championship for 6 months a few years ago with a home built car against some ex factory WRC cars, its an interesting series to take a look at.
Most people think rally in the UK is the British Rally Championship. Far from it, BRC is the absolute minority series in the UK, most competitors run in other series to diferent rules and the sport is thriving at all levels as a result. We have regional and national series for both tarmac and forest rallies taking in single venue club rallies on disused airfields through to events using the forests that Rally GB use (plus the forests that used to be used when the RAC rally was a proper event over 5 days).
I have followed USA rallying for a few years because of the friends i have competing over there, and i am constantly confused by some of the stuctures you have in place such as driver classes. Over here you have 3 licence levels and those levels (based on experience) control the type of events you can participate in, you have to build some experience in the lower club events before you can take to the more demanding events. What this doesnt do is limit what car you can use, but it does mean you have an idea of what you are getting into before you takle a longer, more demanding event.
The class structures we have are engine size and wheel driven based, if you have a limited budget you can compete in a class that is cheap yet still have a great scrap, my first rallies were in a 998cc car, fighting against other similar cars, it was great fun. I worked my way through the sport, eventually switching to the service team side of things when we were running full GroupA spec cars at National Championship level under rules that kept the costs much lower than BRC, similar to open class i would suspect.
The MSA oversee the safety rules for the entire countries rally series, but the championships controlled the technical and class regulations around the guidlines in the MSA rule book. On safety matters such as engine power we were capped at FIA levels so run 34mm restrictors. This makes sense from the point of view of parts supply and it also saves money on transmition and engine loading, plus you dont kill the tyres quite so quickly either.
Not sure what i am trying to say :lol: apart from take a look elsewhere, not at the headline championships, but at what the majority of rallyists are doing, BTRDA would be a great series for you to look at and pick ideas from that would be doable in the USA, i see that series as most relevent to the level of participation you have in the USA right now.
this is the website of the MSA [url]http://www.msauk.org/[/url] and here is the BTRDA [url]http://www.btrda.com/[/url] my team led this championship for 6 months a few years ago with a home built car against some ex factory WRC cars, its an interesting series to take a look at.
| rallynutdon | 10-07-2004 10:43 PM |
Doug (dch), are you listening to this post from John????
| Chromer | 10-07-2004 10:55 PM |
[QUOTE=TV3WRX]
A great start for rally would be to lose the term NOOB[/quote]
That was me. Sorry. Lousy attempt at self-deprecating humor.
[quote]and figure out what to do with it's aspiring competitors, assuming there still are a few.[/QUOTE]
That'd hopefully be me too, and I wish they'd figure it out, 'cause the very fluid and ever-expanding ruleset makes planning a PITA. I need a 2007 rulebook, if anyone has one laying around, cause that's probably when my car will be ready if I start stripping it today... (Actually, I start stripping my spare parts car tomorrow! :banana: )
A great start for rally would be to lose the term NOOB[/quote]
That was me. Sorry. Lousy attempt at self-deprecating humor.
[quote]and figure out what to do with it's aspiring competitors, assuming there still are a few.[/QUOTE]
That'd hopefully be me too, and I wish they'd figure it out, 'cause the very fluid and ever-expanding ruleset makes planning a PITA. I need a 2007 rulebook, if anyone has one laying around, cause that's probably when my car will be ready if I start stripping it today... (Actually, I start stripping my spare parts car tomorrow! :banana: )
| mike270 | 10-07-2004 11:14 PM |
[QUOTE=TV3WRX]Great post. :)
A great start for rally would be to lose the term NOOB, and figure out what to do with it's aspiring competitors, assuming there still are a few.[/QUOTE]
I too, am definitely one of the aspiring competitors. I can't wait to be able to compete in a rally. :D
A great start for rally would be to lose the term NOOB, and figure out what to do with it's aspiring competitors, assuming there still are a few.[/QUOTE]
I too, am definitely one of the aspiring competitors. I can't wait to be able to compete in a rally. :D
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 11:20 PM |
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]Um, Morgan, Joey just advocated everything that the NWO was against... :confused: Attaboy Joey, indeed! A fresh voice who hasn't been exposed to all the corruption and controversy. Throw out Group N! Bring on STS and STX![/QUOTE]
I don't quite read it that way, perhaps I am wrong. He said that he had not heard of rally in the US because of poor marketing, which I repeatedly said that I thought the SCCA did a crap job of it. We are not going to get new people into the sport if you don't get the word out
He is advocating multiple classes that allow people to compete at all different levels, including entry level, not one class (like Jens suggests). The NWO, I believe, suggested three levels
He advocated growing the sport to get sponsors
And to stop living in the good old days etc etc.
Jon the problem is you are only hearing what you want to hear. I have never said that NWO was great, nor have I said that there should not be a place for new people, or for cheaper rallying, but as soon as you hear marketing you just assume that says FU to the little guy, which is completely wrong.
You see we have a new problem now, insurance, (and other expenses) and as I read into it, since the SCCA spread out the cost of insurance throughout all there programs it allowed rallyists to pay less
Well now we don't have that.
So it appears that either:
entry fees and/or membership fees etc are going to have to go up, big time to cover the difference. That is going to be bad for current rally competitors and it is going be even worse for people wanting to get into the sport at an entry level
Or we are going to have to find a way to bring in some sponsors to help offset the costs and make it cheaper for the competitors
So which way do you want it? I know I would rather pay less to compete.
Are you forgetting how much it costs in money and time to travel our country?
But I guess we will see how RA decides to handle it.
I really don't want to argue the benefits or problems with marketing the sport again, that was not my point, but to suggest that was the cause of the SCCA to drop rally is utter crap. Insurance costs were and that would have happened regardless
I don't quite read it that way, perhaps I am wrong. He said that he had not heard of rally in the US because of poor marketing, which I repeatedly said that I thought the SCCA did a crap job of it. We are not going to get new people into the sport if you don't get the word out
He is advocating multiple classes that allow people to compete at all different levels, including entry level, not one class (like Jens suggests). The NWO, I believe, suggested three levels
He advocated growing the sport to get sponsors
And to stop living in the good old days etc etc.
Jon the problem is you are only hearing what you want to hear. I have never said that NWO was great, nor have I said that there should not be a place for new people, or for cheaper rallying, but as soon as you hear marketing you just assume that says FU to the little guy, which is completely wrong.
You see we have a new problem now, insurance, (and other expenses) and as I read into it, since the SCCA spread out the cost of insurance throughout all there programs it allowed rallyists to pay less
Well now we don't have that.
So it appears that either:
entry fees and/or membership fees etc are going to have to go up, big time to cover the difference. That is going to be bad for current rally competitors and it is going be even worse for people wanting to get into the sport at an entry level
Or we are going to have to find a way to bring in some sponsors to help offset the costs and make it cheaper for the competitors
So which way do you want it? I know I would rather pay less to compete.
Are you forgetting how much it costs in money and time to travel our country?
But I guess we will see how RA decides to handle it.
I really don't want to argue the benefits or problems with marketing the sport again, that was not my point, but to suggest that was the cause of the SCCA to drop rally is utter crap. Insurance costs were and that would have happened regardless
| Mopho | 10-07-2004 11:46 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]it might serve well to take a look outside the USA to how a more established country handles rallying.
this is the website of the MSA [url]http://www.msauk.org/[/url] and here is the BTRDA [url]http://www.btrda.com/[/url] my team led this championship for 6 months a few years ago with a home built car against some ex factory WRC cars, its an interesting series to take a look at.[/QUOTE]
John
A bunch of questions for you.
I see that there is several series sponsors, including Dunlop as the series sponsor. What do these sponsors provide? What kind of sponsors do competitors get? In your championship is it realistic for a competitor to find sponsors to help offset costs? What does the organization do to encourage sponsors (i.e.marketing)? do they do any promoting? If so what have been the negative affects?
I have been to several Irish rallies and a lot is done to promote the sport there and most drivers have pretty substantial sponsors, but it is a small country (as is yours) and there is quite a saturation of rallies so the sport is pretty easy to get involved. I remember a few people complaining that they had to drive 4 hours to get to the rally I was at (and they were at a rally just the weekend before) :lol:
As you know, towing to a rally here is measured in days not hours so it costs a lot to do a rally, and it can take a week or more to actually compete in a national rally by the time you are done. Rallies are few and far between (there is not a lot of regional rallies), so it is not quite so easy to compete at an entry level here. heck, it's not easy to spectate!
So do you think the marketing and promotion side should be ignored?
this is the website of the MSA [url]http://www.msauk.org/[/url] and here is the BTRDA [url]http://www.btrda.com/[/url] my team led this championship for 6 months a few years ago with a home built car against some ex factory WRC cars, its an interesting series to take a look at.[/QUOTE]
John
A bunch of questions for you.
I see that there is several series sponsors, including Dunlop as the series sponsor. What do these sponsors provide? What kind of sponsors do competitors get? In your championship is it realistic for a competitor to find sponsors to help offset costs? What does the organization do to encourage sponsors (i.e.marketing)? do they do any promoting? If so what have been the negative affects?
I have been to several Irish rallies and a lot is done to promote the sport there and most drivers have pretty substantial sponsors, but it is a small country (as is yours) and there is quite a saturation of rallies so the sport is pretty easy to get involved. I remember a few people complaining that they had to drive 4 hours to get to the rally I was at (and they were at a rally just the weekend before) :lol:
As you know, towing to a rally here is measured in days not hours so it costs a lot to do a rally, and it can take a week or more to actually compete in a national rally by the time you are done. Rallies are few and far between (there is not a lot of regional rallies), so it is not quite so easy to compete at an entry level here. heck, it's not easy to spectate!
So do you think the marketing and promotion side should be ignored?
| WRXMaster | 10-08-2004 12:29 AM |
I am young and "I" cant afford to pay for rally myself................ I need sponsors to run. I have been really lucky to race with $$$ backing. I have found rally is one of the hardest motorsports in the US to get sponsored. Companies do not give out money for no reason--- they expect a return in their investment. You cant get a company excited when the sport looks unprofessoinal..... no spectators and horrible marketing. Even at the races I would be at a gas station and get this ---- "oh my god thats a rally car! DO you rally in europe? There is a race here????" Then I would see them at the race ---"Why isnt this advertised at all? Rally is awsome!" You cant get sponsors unless it looks professional and you have good spectator turnout............... Morgan is right! Its alot cheaper to run when sponsors help foot the bill............just look at other motorsports
| rallynutdon | 10-08-2004 08:42 AM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]I
He is advocating multiple classes that allow people to compete at all different levels, including entry level, not one class (like Jens suggests). The NWO, I believe, suggested three levels
[/QUOTE]
Don't intermingle classes and levels. They are NOT the same thing!
He is advocating multiple classes that allow people to compete at all different levels, including entry level, not one class (like Jens suggests). The NWO, I believe, suggested three levels
[/QUOTE]
Don't intermingle classes and levels. They are NOT the same thing!
| joey1313 | 10-08-2004 09:38 AM |
Maybe I should attempt to clarify some of my ramblings.
The point I was attempting to make is that classes/levels(my bad on the terminology) should be configured to maximize participation. Looking at other organizations, both rally based and non-rally based. Remember I have no idea how things have been in the past or are currently. I just think that maximum participation is the only way to go. How is this achieved? Maybe focus on grassroots. It would be easier to get local regional events started if costs were minimized. Something like Spec Miata maybe. A cheap stock car with safety enhancements only(rollcage,harnesses,etc.). If I could build a competitive car for 7k it'd be on like donkey kong. Most everyone I know would love to run through the swamps down here and would for that price. As people progress in a class like that, then we would want to step up to faster cars and more difficult courses.
My rambling point is that in addition to what has been done, something to get people like me involved also needs to be taken into consideration. Baseball is popular because alot of people played little league and understand the game. Same with football and the peewee leagues. Road racing begins with carting or maybe even autox for some like me. Which is fairly cheap and a family can do it together. Nascar begins at the local dirt tracks. A father and son can build a ministock class car for a couple of grand and have a blast. The same is true for drag racing. Nascar would die if entry level was the BGN series. Where does rally start? Not locally for most of us.
The other motorsports flourish because an average joe can afford to build a car, race, and have fun. I have no idea what its take to put on a rally(cost,logistics,etc) or how to go about getting people involved on the local level around the country. All I think I know is that the sport can't grow at the top levels without maximum participation at the local levels.
Side note rambling.
Who cares who killed the sport, who did what, who said what, blah, blah, freakin blah.
For those involved in the sport THIS MAY BE YOUR ONLY CHANCE TO MAKE IT BETTER.
Here is the oppontunity to do all that you can to make the sport become what we all want it to be: successful. If all you want to do is point fingers and wait for the new venture to fail so you can say I told you so, then get a new hobby!!!
I am just throwing out ideas from an outsiders view. I am probably just full of poop, but I want to become involved. I want local rallies that I can participate in and will attempt to do everything that I can to make that happen. I am hoping that RA will someday be able to provide support to the local levels much like SCCA does with autocross. Then we can all race.
I am just trying to throw out ideas and make people think.
The End again.
The point I was attempting to make is that classes/levels(my bad on the terminology) should be configured to maximize participation. Looking at other organizations, both rally based and non-rally based. Remember I have no idea how things have been in the past or are currently. I just think that maximum participation is the only way to go. How is this achieved? Maybe focus on grassroots. It would be easier to get local regional events started if costs were minimized. Something like Spec Miata maybe. A cheap stock car with safety enhancements only(rollcage,harnesses,etc.). If I could build a competitive car for 7k it'd be on like donkey kong. Most everyone I know would love to run through the swamps down here and would for that price. As people progress in a class like that, then we would want to step up to faster cars and more difficult courses.
My rambling point is that in addition to what has been done, something to get people like me involved also needs to be taken into consideration. Baseball is popular because alot of people played little league and understand the game. Same with football and the peewee leagues. Road racing begins with carting or maybe even autox for some like me. Which is fairly cheap and a family can do it together. Nascar begins at the local dirt tracks. A father and son can build a ministock class car for a couple of grand and have a blast. The same is true for drag racing. Nascar would die if entry level was the BGN series. Where does rally start? Not locally for most of us.
The other motorsports flourish because an average joe can afford to build a car, race, and have fun. I have no idea what its take to put on a rally(cost,logistics,etc) or how to go about getting people involved on the local level around the country. All I think I know is that the sport can't grow at the top levels without maximum participation at the local levels.
Side note rambling.
Who cares who killed the sport, who did what, who said what, blah, blah, freakin blah.
For those involved in the sport THIS MAY BE YOUR ONLY CHANCE TO MAKE IT BETTER.
Here is the oppontunity to do all that you can to make the sport become what we all want it to be: successful. If all you want to do is point fingers and wait for the new venture to fail so you can say I told you so, then get a new hobby!!!
I am just throwing out ideas from an outsiders view. I am probably just full of poop, but I want to become involved. I want local rallies that I can participate in and will attempt to do everything that I can to make that happen. I am hoping that RA will someday be able to provide support to the local levels much like SCCA does with autocross. Then we can all race.
I am just trying to throw out ideas and make people think.
The End again.
| ANZAC_1915 | 10-08-2004 09:42 AM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]I am young and "I" cant afford to pay for rally myself................ I need sponsors to run. I have been really lucky to race with $$$ backing. I have found rally is one of the hardest motorsports in the US to get sponsored.[/QUOTE]
You can always volunteer, or be a co-driver! (that's a cheaper way to get into the sport)
You can always volunteer, or be a co-driver! (that's a cheaper way to get into the sport)
| ANZAC_1915 | 10-08-2004 09:51 AM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]it might serve well to take a look outside the USA to how a more established country handles rallying.
[/QUOTE]
For a small country, rallying in Australia seems to be doing very well. Decent TV and print coverage, some good teams, lots of events.
This is where my passion for rallying and cars started in 1981. I knew a guy who had a Mk 1 Escort RS2000 rally car and I thought he was crazy, because he spent all of his time and money rebuilding the car after rolling it, or rebuilding the engine after blowing it.
The great thing about the US scene is there are some passionate organizers and great roads.
I strongly believe in the bottoms up approach --- build a strong set of regional events for clubman level competition and let a national series evolve out of that.
Also, except for a few people who have businesses in the sport, rallying is a recreational activity.
At the end of the day, people want to enjoy themselves by competing in a rally, watching a rally, helping out at a rally. That's what the focus should be on, what needs to happen to enable that.
Glenn
[/QUOTE]
For a small country, rallying in Australia seems to be doing very well. Decent TV and print coverage, some good teams, lots of events.
This is where my passion for rallying and cars started in 1981. I knew a guy who had a Mk 1 Escort RS2000 rally car and I thought he was crazy, because he spent all of his time and money rebuilding the car after rolling it, or rebuilding the engine after blowing it.
The great thing about the US scene is there are some passionate organizers and great roads.
I strongly believe in the bottoms up approach --- build a strong set of regional events for clubman level competition and let a national series evolve out of that.
Also, except for a few people who have businesses in the sport, rallying is a recreational activity.
At the end of the day, people want to enjoy themselves by competing in a rally, watching a rally, helping out at a rally. That's what the focus should be on, what needs to happen to enable that.
Glenn
| Porter | 10-08-2004 10:00 AM |
[QUOTE=WRXMaster]You cant get a company excited when the sport looks unprofessoinal..... no spectators and horrible marketing. Even at the races I would be at a gas station and get this ---- "oh my god thats a rally car! DO you rally in europe? There is a race here????" Then I would see them at the race ---"Why isnt this advertised at all? Rally is awsome!" You cant get sponsors unless it looks professional and you have good spectator turnout....[/QUOTE]
That was exactly my experience at Cherokee Trails several years in a row. Even with community involvement from the City of Chattanooga, there didn't seem to be any real advertising or promotion of the event, and the organizers seemed more antagonistic towards spectators than anything. As much as I understand that many rallyists see large spectator presence as an intrusion into the sanctity of their sport, that attitude has created a lot of resentment on the part of the "average" rally spectator, and I think has hurt the chances for the sport to be a commercial success. Without commercial success, exposure, spectator turnout, etc the likelihood of maintaining sponsor involvement is unlikely.
My experience attending STPR was much more positive, the organizers seemed much more accomodating toward spectators, etc. Attending Cherokee Trails made me never want to attend or participate in an SCCA rally event ever again, and I'm a rally enthusiast!
I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that regardless of who wins the ideological war over the direction of the classing, PLEASE work to make sure that spectators are respected and accomodated in the most "European" manner possible.
That was exactly my experience at Cherokee Trails several years in a row. Even with community involvement from the City of Chattanooga, there didn't seem to be any real advertising or promotion of the event, and the organizers seemed more antagonistic towards spectators than anything. As much as I understand that many rallyists see large spectator presence as an intrusion into the sanctity of their sport, that attitude has created a lot of resentment on the part of the "average" rally spectator, and I think has hurt the chances for the sport to be a commercial success. Without commercial success, exposure, spectator turnout, etc the likelihood of maintaining sponsor involvement is unlikely.
My experience attending STPR was much more positive, the organizers seemed much more accomodating toward spectators, etc. Attending Cherokee Trails made me never want to attend or participate in an SCCA rally event ever again, and I'm a rally enthusiast!
I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that regardless of who wins the ideological war over the direction of the classing, PLEASE work to make sure that spectators are respected and accomodated in the most "European" manner possible.
| ITWRX4ME | 10-08-2004 10:00 AM |
Here's the link for Rally America:
[url]http://www.rally-america.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.rally-america.com/[/url]
| joey1313 | 10-08-2004 10:06 AM |
I strongly believe in the bottoms up approach --- build a strong set of regional events for clubman level competition and let a national series evolve out of that.
Also, except for a few people who have businesses in the sport, rallying is a recreational activity.
At the end of the day, people want to enjoy themselves by competing in a rally, watching a rally, helping out at a rally. That's what the focus should be on, what needs to happen to enable that.
Glenn[/QUOTE]
Thats what I was trying to say in my ramblings. Maybe Glenn can give me some tips on how not to ramble on and on. LOL
Also, except for a few people who have businesses in the sport, rallying is a recreational activity.
At the end of the day, people want to enjoy themselves by competing in a rally, watching a rally, helping out at a rally. That's what the focus should be on, what needs to happen to enable that.
Glenn[/QUOTE]
Thats what I was trying to say in my ramblings. Maybe Glenn can give me some tips on how not to ramble on and on. LOL
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