| Mopho | 10-08-2004 11:01 AM |
OK perhaps, I misread Joeys post, but I still agree with him to some degree(contrary to what Jon Bogert thinks)
But we also have a NATIONAL championship of existing rallies in a HUGE country to contend with as well
And we also have club rallies that have to be cancelled because there was not enough entries and that is the cheap entry level rally. Why is that? How is that encouragement to an organizer to create a new club event?
If I was King, I would make the national championship 5 events, one in each region of the country, and promote the hell out of it so it is a big visible entity that gets the word out about the sport and gets people interested.
(You can't expect people to come play or work at rallies if they don't don't know they exist.)
Less events means less expense and less time away from work to compete in the championship, so hopefully more people competing in the whole championship
[b]At the Same time[/b] I would work to create smaller regional club events/championships so there would be a place for entry level racing
I would then invade...oops! wrong political battle
You can't have a bottoms up approach and you can't have a bottoms down approach either. They have to be done at [b]the same time[/b]
You need to have a visible entity to entice people in but at the same time you have to have an entry level to provide a place for people to go.
Contrary to what you read here and on SS.com there is a lot of people beyond the entry level and they want to drive (and can drive) fast cars that are expensive to maintain, driving an old VW, where shifting gears just changes the noise, down a stage is below there skill level. There is also some great drivers stuck in crappy cars because they can't afford to move up.
They want to see the sport grow and they want/need sponsors to help them continue.
These people stopped posting a long time ago because it always turns into a flamefest from people that think that somehow getting a company to give you money so you can have a good time in a race car is a bad thing
:rolleyes:
There is no reason why all levels all can't co-exist
But we also have a NATIONAL championship of existing rallies in a HUGE country to contend with as well
And we also have club rallies that have to be cancelled because there was not enough entries and that is the cheap entry level rally. Why is that? How is that encouragement to an organizer to create a new club event?
If I was King, I would make the national championship 5 events, one in each region of the country, and promote the hell out of it so it is a big visible entity that gets the word out about the sport and gets people interested.
(You can't expect people to come play or work at rallies if they don't don't know they exist.)
Less events means less expense and less time away from work to compete in the championship, so hopefully more people competing in the whole championship
[b]At the Same time[/b] I would work to create smaller regional club events/championships so there would be a place for entry level racing
I would then invade...oops! wrong political battle
You can't have a bottoms up approach and you can't have a bottoms down approach either. They have to be done at [b]the same time[/b]
You need to have a visible entity to entice people in but at the same time you have to have an entry level to provide a place for people to go.
Contrary to what you read here and on SS.com there is a lot of people beyond the entry level and they want to drive (and can drive) fast cars that are expensive to maintain, driving an old VW, where shifting gears just changes the noise, down a stage is below there skill level. There is also some great drivers stuck in crappy cars because they can't afford to move up.
They want to see the sport grow and they want/need sponsors to help them continue.
These people stopped posting a long time ago because it always turns into a flamefest from people that think that somehow getting a company to give you money so you can have a good time in a race car is a bad thing
:rolleyes:
There is no reason why all levels all can't co-exist
| Mopho | 10-08-2004 11:04 AM |
[QUOTE=rallynutdon]Don't intermingle classes and levels. They are NOT the same thing![/QUOTE]
I realize that,( despite posting at 2am) my point was that the intent was to have a place for different skill/money levels
I realize that,( despite posting at 2am) my point was that the intent was to have a place for different skill/money levels
| RichardM | 10-08-2004 11:10 AM |
Besides, Morgan, there are some of us who even if you gave us Petter's car, would still be slow. But I don't crash either. At my age, it takes too long to heal. :-)
Richard
PS: Texas rallyists stay tuned. We will continue.
Richard
PS: Texas rallyists stay tuned. We will continue.
| dch | 10-08-2004 11:22 AM |
[QUOTE=Jens]I am **VERY** troubled by something you wrote on Special Stage, specifically in this thread:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/2942.html[/url]
"In my opinion, it's neither prudent nor possible to implement remote control of the corporation by majority vote from the masses."
Regards,
Jens[/QUOTE]Okay I'll try to clarify what I meant by that. There's no reason my statement should alarm anyone...
By "remote control" I mean that if anybody can create any issue they like to vote on (examples: run with no roll cage because it's cheaper, no entry fees at all and $1,000 cash for each competitor who does enter, etc.) then everybody votes on it and it passes and Rally America is then obligated to do whatever the voters say without any manner of control in place to make sure no stupidity is perpetrated, that would certainly not be prudent. In fact it would not be possible, as sooner or later the stupidity would probably bankrupt the company, or get someone killed and the lawyers would slay the company and then that would be it. Now if RA was able to select what was voted on and the choices involved with each item, there's at least a level of control in place and it would be a good thing but it's a far cry from what one person was at least implying, that everybody should be able to vote on and control every aspect and all decisions no matter how large or small that Rally America has to deal with.
I'm not saying I'm against giving people a chance to vote on items. I am saying that not every last detail can or should be put to a vote and then executed regardless of the reality of being able to act on the outcome without damaging the sport.
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
-Doug
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/2942.html[/url]
"In my opinion, it's neither prudent nor possible to implement remote control of the corporation by majority vote from the masses."
Regards,
Jens[/QUOTE]Okay I'll try to clarify what I meant by that. There's no reason my statement should alarm anyone...
By "remote control" I mean that if anybody can create any issue they like to vote on (examples: run with no roll cage because it's cheaper, no entry fees at all and $1,000 cash for each competitor who does enter, etc.) then everybody votes on it and it passes and Rally America is then obligated to do whatever the voters say without any manner of control in place to make sure no stupidity is perpetrated, that would certainly not be prudent. In fact it would not be possible, as sooner or later the stupidity would probably bankrupt the company, or get someone killed and the lawyers would slay the company and then that would be it. Now if RA was able to select what was voted on and the choices involved with each item, there's at least a level of control in place and it would be a good thing but it's a far cry from what one person was at least implying, that everybody should be able to vote on and control every aspect and all decisions no matter how large or small that Rally America has to deal with.
I'm not saying I'm against giving people a chance to vote on items. I am saying that not every last detail can or should be put to a vote and then executed regardless of the reality of being able to act on the outcome without damaging the sport.
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
-Doug
| Mopho | 10-08-2004 11:28 AM |
[QUOTE=joey1313]I strongly believe in the bottoms up approach --- build a strong set of regional events for clubman level competition and let a national series evolve out of that.
Thats what I was trying to say in my ramblings. Maybe Glenn can give me some tips on how not to ramble on and on. LOL[/QUOTE]
The problem is Joey, as you may know, Rally is not like Auto-x, you can't just close down a parking lot and have fun. you can't just drive up in your street car, throw some numbers on it and compete. That is why Auto-x is successful as a grassroots motorsport.
With rally, you pretty much have to have a dedicated car that is completely prepped with expensive safety equipment. you need a tow vehicle and a trailer. You need to have a co-driver and some volunteer crew (which you have to provide a place to sleep and feed them). You need tires and spare parts, you have to be prepaired to crash the car and possibly right it off, you have to take long weekends every time you want to compete, etc. Depending on which part of the country you live in you might only be able to use all this stuff you spent money on, 2-3 times a year.
Sure would be easier with a sponsor, even a small one
for organizers it takes a lot of work and time to put together, It is difficult to get permission to use the roads, it takes many volunteers to close down the roads. Medical personnel need to be hired, the roads need to be repaired after the event. and then we have insurance
Thats what I was trying to say in my ramblings. Maybe Glenn can give me some tips on how not to ramble on and on. LOL[/QUOTE]
The problem is Joey, as you may know, Rally is not like Auto-x, you can't just close down a parking lot and have fun. you can't just drive up in your street car, throw some numbers on it and compete. That is why Auto-x is successful as a grassroots motorsport.
With rally, you pretty much have to have a dedicated car that is completely prepped with expensive safety equipment. you need a tow vehicle and a trailer. You need to have a co-driver and some volunteer crew (which you have to provide a place to sleep and feed them). You need tires and spare parts, you have to be prepaired to crash the car and possibly right it off, you have to take long weekends every time you want to compete, etc. Depending on which part of the country you live in you might only be able to use all this stuff you spent money on, 2-3 times a year.
Sure would be easier with a sponsor, even a small one
for organizers it takes a lot of work and time to put together, It is difficult to get permission to use the roads, it takes many volunteers to close down the roads. Medical personnel need to be hired, the roads need to be repaired after the event. and then we have insurance
| joey1313 | 10-08-2004 11:46 AM |
Mopho....Your right, both have to exist at the same time. Without local participation the national series goes away. Without a national series, there is nowhere for the best drivers in Louisiana to progress to. We need both. One is already established. I am just saying we need to focus on the other also.
I use autox as an example because I am most familar with that. We have 3 regions here. We compete in our local regions. We compete in the other regions. We have events where the regions compete against each other like teams. There is also a national tour that visits different cities. There is also a national lets see who is best event in KS. There are many classes and levels to compete in. From beginners to advanced, everyone can play. I would like to see as many rallys run per year as autox's.
Sponsership is advertising. Companies will only spend advertising money in the places that give them the best return on their money. Why spend money on sponsering a rally team when only 100's will see it? They are better off to sponser a sprint car that a hundred thousand will see on ESPN. I still think maximum participation is the only way to get to that level. Promotion is the key. We all can do something to help promote an event. Local, regional, or national makes no difference. We can talk up the events on local websites, make and pass out fliers, get businesses to keep a stack of fliers, talk to local radio, tv channels, and print media and try to get them to at least give results of the events, etc. It is up to us to make this sport successful. We can't just rely on the organizers of an event or RA to do all the promotion. If we all do something positive we can make the sport thrive. It is up to each of us to do what we can to help. At the risk of sounding even more corny than I already do: I can't change anything, you can't change anything, but WE can change everything.
I use autox as an example because I am most familar with that. We have 3 regions here. We compete in our local regions. We compete in the other regions. We have events where the regions compete against each other like teams. There is also a national tour that visits different cities. There is also a national lets see who is best event in KS. There are many classes and levels to compete in. From beginners to advanced, everyone can play. I would like to see as many rallys run per year as autox's.
Sponsership is advertising. Companies will only spend advertising money in the places that give them the best return on their money. Why spend money on sponsering a rally team when only 100's will see it? They are better off to sponser a sprint car that a hundred thousand will see on ESPN. I still think maximum participation is the only way to get to that level. Promotion is the key. We all can do something to help promote an event. Local, regional, or national makes no difference. We can talk up the events on local websites, make and pass out fliers, get businesses to keep a stack of fliers, talk to local radio, tv channels, and print media and try to get them to at least give results of the events, etc. It is up to us to make this sport successful. We can't just rely on the organizers of an event or RA to do all the promotion. If we all do something positive we can make the sport thrive. It is up to each of us to do what we can to help. At the risk of sounding even more corny than I already do: I can't change anything, you can't change anything, but WE can change everything.
| joey1313 | 10-08-2004 11:55 AM |
Once again you are right Mopho....The logistics of putting on a rally event are insane.
But I still think would be possible to do at least 2 or 3 events per year in every state. In my fantasy land I would like to see one every weekend in every state. I dream big.LOL I believe if a couple of events were ran every year in most states, the sport would be wildly successful and the sponership and coverage would improve by leaps and bounds. I am guilty of wanting it all right freakin now. LOL Hopefully the powers that be have more sense than I do.
But I still think would be possible to do at least 2 or 3 events per year in every state. In my fantasy land I would like to see one every weekend in every state. I dream big.LOL I believe if a couple of events were ran every year in most states, the sport would be wildly successful and the sponership and coverage would improve by leaps and bounds. I am guilty of wanting it all right freakin now. LOL Hopefully the powers that be have more sense than I do.
| Jon Bogert | 10-08-2004 12:03 PM |
[QUOTE]By "remote control" I mean that if anybody can create any issue they like to vote on (examples: run with no roll cage because it's cheaper, no entry fees at all and $1,000 cash for each competitor who does enter, etc.) then everybody votes on it and it passes and Rally America is then obligated to do whatever the voters say without any manner of control in place to make sure no stupidity is perpetrated, that would certainly not be prudent. [/QUOTE]Doug, I think the issue is that everyone's experience has been just the opposite. It was the sanctioning/rule-making body that was creating stupid, irresponsible rules and the participants had no way to overrule them.
Perhaps it would make sense to do things the way certain states do: the laws are made by the government, an 99% of the time the government does its job and everything works great. But when the government screws up, the citizens have the ability to overrule with a referendum.
Not saying that RA would do this, but SCCA made it pretty clear that they would do just about anything for the manufacturers. Is RA going to put the competitors interests ahead of series sponsors' and manufacturers' interests? If you're comitted to that, great, but if it works out differently...
Perhaps it would make sense to do things the way certain states do: the laws are made by the government, an 99% of the time the government does its job and everything works great. But when the government screws up, the citizens have the ability to overrule with a referendum.
Not saying that RA would do this, but SCCA made it pretty clear that they would do just about anything for the manufacturers. Is RA going to put the competitors interests ahead of series sponsors' and manufacturers' interests? If you're comitted to that, great, but if it works out differently...
| mhoward1 | 10-08-2004 12:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]The problem is Joey, as you may know, Rally is not like Auto-x, you can't just close down a parking lot and have fun. you can't just drive up in your street car, throw some numbers on it and compete. That is why Auto-x is successful as a grassroots motorsport.
With rally, you pretty much have to have a dedicated car that is completely prepped with expensive safety equipment. you need a tow vehicle and a trailer. You need to have a co-driver and some volunteer crew (which you have to provide a place to sleep and feed them). You need tires and spare parts, you have to be prepaired to crash the car and possibly right it off, you have to take long weekends every time you want to compete, etc. Depending on which part of the country you live in you might only be able to use all this stuff you spent money on, 2-3 times a year.[/QUOTE]
While I agree with some of this, from a grassroots level I don't agree with all. If you look at the success of many Time trial and Club Racing groups, many put the required saftey equipment in cars that they drive to events. I wouldn't call them competitive compared to the fully prep cars that come in on enclosed trailers, but they are still there to have fun and gain experience. It's these people that you can have classes dedicated to. The will make up the bulk of a series participants. It's good to have the well publisized and well covered glory series, but with out the lower level support, interest will be low.
With rally, you pretty much have to have a dedicated car that is completely prepped with expensive safety equipment. you need a tow vehicle and a trailer. You need to have a co-driver and some volunteer crew (which you have to provide a place to sleep and feed them). You need tires and spare parts, you have to be prepaired to crash the car and possibly right it off, you have to take long weekends every time you want to compete, etc. Depending on which part of the country you live in you might only be able to use all this stuff you spent money on, 2-3 times a year.[/QUOTE]
While I agree with some of this, from a grassroots level I don't agree with all. If you look at the success of many Time trial and Club Racing groups, many put the required saftey equipment in cars that they drive to events. I wouldn't call them competitive compared to the fully prep cars that come in on enclosed trailers, but they are still there to have fun and gain experience. It's these people that you can have classes dedicated to. The will make up the bulk of a series participants. It's good to have the well publisized and well covered glory series, but with out the lower level support, interest will be low.
| joey1313 | 10-08-2004 12:56 PM |
[QUOTE=mh_WRX]While I agree with some of this, from a grassroots level I don't agree with all. If you look at the success of many Time trial and Club Racing groups, many put the required saftey equipment in cars that they drive to events. I wouldn't call them competitive compared to the fully prep cars that come in on enclosed trailers, but they are still there to have fun and gain experience. It's these people that you can have classes dedicated to. The will make up the bulk of a series participants. It's good to have the well publisized and well covered glory series, but with out the lower level support, interest will be low.[/QUOTE]
I agree.
I agree.
| tt_ttf | 10-08-2004 12:57 PM |
mmm hints of some of the politics that were around Wild Wild West not being a Pro-Rally....
The AFR team came out quite loudly on SS about their displeasure about their funds being used in association with the FIA North American Championship. Some of the reasons later given for the loss of Pro status just didn't add up but smacked of Sponsor influence. And it was very clear that the three main sponsors were dictating what was being done in a lot of other things - and what happened, they drop it like a hot rock when it doesn't suit (ie not enough marketing value) and the SCCA drops Rally altogether inside of a year.
If they had done a better job on the grassroots level and there was 1000's of people competing at Club level, you can bet the outcome would have been different. But even an event as well known as Wild Wild West only got approx 30 cars vs the 60+ it had as Pro round. Given the level of effort required to put on a rally that is not viable (and that is in one of the largest rally regions in the US)
But like John and Glenn pointed out and is show by the fact that both the UK and Australia have WRC rounds are secure events on the calender, National or WRC level is one thing but if you don't have a solid, popular, and well attended grassroots level, you don't have the other 2. The bottom level is what drives the ability to get the marketing value for money that you need for sponsorship. Don't have lots of people interested or doing themselves, you don't have an audience.
We actually had a round of the WRC in the US back in the 80's well before this latest bloom for those of you who don't know. But we won't ever have a chance of that unless Rally in general is strong in the US
ProRally will wither and die if you don't take care of ClubRally first and foremost.
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]
Not saying that RA would do this, but SCCA made it pretty clear that they would do just about anything for the manufacturers. Is RA going to put the competitors interests ahead of series sponsors' and manufacturers' interests? If you're comitted to that, great, but if it works out differently...[/QUOTE]
The AFR team came out quite loudly on SS about their displeasure about their funds being used in association with the FIA North American Championship. Some of the reasons later given for the loss of Pro status just didn't add up but smacked of Sponsor influence. And it was very clear that the three main sponsors were dictating what was being done in a lot of other things - and what happened, they drop it like a hot rock when it doesn't suit (ie not enough marketing value) and the SCCA drops Rally altogether inside of a year.
If they had done a better job on the grassroots level and there was 1000's of people competing at Club level, you can bet the outcome would have been different. But even an event as well known as Wild Wild West only got approx 30 cars vs the 60+ it had as Pro round. Given the level of effort required to put on a rally that is not viable (and that is in one of the largest rally regions in the US)
But like John and Glenn pointed out and is show by the fact that both the UK and Australia have WRC rounds are secure events on the calender, National or WRC level is one thing but if you don't have a solid, popular, and well attended grassroots level, you don't have the other 2. The bottom level is what drives the ability to get the marketing value for money that you need for sponsorship. Don't have lots of people interested or doing themselves, you don't have an audience.
We actually had a round of the WRC in the US back in the 80's well before this latest bloom for those of you who don't know. But we won't ever have a chance of that unless Rally in general is strong in the US
ProRally will wither and die if you don't take care of ClubRally first and foremost.
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]
Not saying that RA would do this, but SCCA made it pretty clear that they would do just about anything for the manufacturers. Is RA going to put the competitors interests ahead of series sponsors' and manufacturers' interests? If you're comitted to that, great, but if it works out differently...[/QUOTE]
| johnfelstead | 10-08-2004 01:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]John
A bunch of questions for you.
I see that there is several series sponsors, including Dunlop as the series sponsor. What do these sponsors provide? What kind of sponsors do competitors get? In your championship is it realistic for a competitor to find sponsors to help offset costs? What does the organization do to encourage sponsors (i.e.marketing)? do they do any promoting? If so what have been the negative affects?[/quote]
My team were winners of the Dunlop series run within the main competition quite a few times, we won that overall in 99. Dunlop provided tyres at competitive discounted rates to all series runners and then the top placed teams received free tyres or bonus money to help offset the costs. It's quite common for the tyre companies to be involved in rally championship sponsorship over here, for example the National Championship (the highest series below BRC that takes in Scotland, England and Wales) is sponsored by Kuhmo tyres. The series is also sponsored overall by Dunlop, who will be providing financial support to the organising team to help keep costs down.
If you look at the regulations you can see there are quite a few incentive schemes from manufacturers such as Silcolene Oils, they use their involvement in the sport as a promotional tool for their companies in their national advertising campains. It's all positive as far as the competitors and organisors are concerned, as their involvement helps raise the profile and reduce costs.
On a personal team sponsorship level, you get a complete mixture. You have the multi milionares who buy factory built WRC cars funding this out of their own pocket with their own company sponsorship. You have the fully sponsored drivers who pay the likes of Barretts (ran David Higgins in BRC) to provide the car and then you have the majority of teams who have local sponsorship topping up their own contribution. My own team fitted into this third category, we had the same local sponsor for 10 years, who helped us go from running 1600cc Mk2 escorts, through 2 litre Mk2 escorts and Manta's all the way to full GroupA Escort Cosworths. We started out at single venue type rallies and once we were winning those consistently we stepped up to the national Forest events where we would be winning the class championships, until eventually we went to the full spec GroupA cars where again on a limited budget we were regular top 5 runners against the factory spec cars. Our best at this level was 2nd overall and championship leaders for most of the season in 99.
The sponsor put in around 50% of our costs that year, the team members paid the rest, mostly the driver/co-driver covered these costs but we paid for our own accomodation etc. The key was giving our sponsor good value for money, so we were regularly featured in national motorsport press, we were covered in the local papers and also in the trade papers for our main sponsor. Our main sponsor manufactured Sausages, yes, that right, sausages! The exposure we gave them helped build their business, they used to come to every event with a key customer or supplier in tow and spent the weekend with us, quite often the suppliers to our main sponsor would also give us extra sponsorship to be part of the team and apear in the trade press articles. We used to arange corporate days at a rally school where our sponsor would bring his guests allong for a days rallying, then we would give them a passenger run in the GroupA car at full speed and blow them away. It's all about maximising exposure for your sponsors and giving good value for money. There are so many ways you can tie in your sport to a companies business and make it work for everyone.
[QUOTE=Mopho]
I have been to several Irish rallies and a lot is done to promote the sport there and most drivers have pretty substantial sponsors, but it is a small country (as is yours) and there is quite a saturation of rallies so the sport is pretty easy to get involved. I remember a few people complaining that they had to drive 4 hours to get to the rally I was at (and they were at a rally just the weekend before) :lol:
As you know, towing to a rally here is measured in days not hours so it costs a lot to do a rally, and it can take a week or more to actually compete in a national rally by the time you are done. Rallies are few and far between (there is not a lot of regional rallies), so it is not quite so easy to compete at an entry level here. heck, it's not easy to spectate!
So do you think the marketing and promotion side should be ignored?[/QUOTE]
I know the USA is at a diferent saturation level to established countries like the UK and Ireland, i am also very aware of the extra costs involved with travelling, even at your pathetic fuel cost levels. ;) I am not saying you should copy what we have, but i think its worth taking time out during this transition to take a look outside and see how countries like the UK got to the level they are at. You have a masive car owning population, yet you dont seem to have an established motorsport car club culture of the same style as here, where every county has at least one car club dedicated to motorsport activities, most have multiple clubs that specialise in rally or race activities, this is where the organisors and grass roots competitors come from.
To be able to apply for an MSA competition driving licence, you have to be a member of one of these local clubs, if you dont join you cant go rally. This is a good idea because it gets everyone involved in the sport and gets you in contact with people who organise rallies, want to marshal, want to compete. You get to meet young aspiring drivers/co-drivers who need some help on their way. A good example is a young lad i met at the club who was desperate to co-drive but had no money, i gave him a set of my old overalls and a helmet so he could get started, a few years later he was co-driving profesionally at WRC level because he got good advice and a hand up to get on his way. Without that club he would have found it much harder to get established.
I started out rallying in road rallies, which are events run from 11pm to 7am in the country lanes on public roads. This is a massive sport in the UK, its a major breading ground for co-drivers in particular with the likes of phil mills learning his trade here. It's why the top WRC navies are from the UK. There is a lot of work to be done to build the sport, and i think its esential the grass roots are looked at in particular, without a strong foundation you have nothing to build on. Of course you have to cater for the established guys who are running at Pro Rally level, the two have to go hand in hand.
As your president has been saying a lot lately, "it's hard work" :lol: You have a huge potential that is untapped. The biggest issue for the National series is insurance, but the bigest issue for the sport as a whole is getting the grass roots stronger, much stronger. If you can achieve that then the rest will follow IMHO.
To finish, Marketing and promotion shouldnt be ignored, its absolutely key to building the sport and making it work, that goes for individual competitors, the events and the championship as a whole. You need people to know about what you are doing, i am amazed rally isnt HUGE in the USA with the car culture you have and the roads at your disposal, i was amazed how little local people knew about the event when i was down at Rim last year, and i believe that was one of the more promoted events in the Pro Rally series.
Anyway, i dont have the answers, thats for you guys to work out, i wish you every success because its the greatest sport in the world, more people should know about it.
A bunch of questions for you.
I see that there is several series sponsors, including Dunlop as the series sponsor. What do these sponsors provide? What kind of sponsors do competitors get? In your championship is it realistic for a competitor to find sponsors to help offset costs? What does the organization do to encourage sponsors (i.e.marketing)? do they do any promoting? If so what have been the negative affects?[/quote]
My team were winners of the Dunlop series run within the main competition quite a few times, we won that overall in 99. Dunlop provided tyres at competitive discounted rates to all series runners and then the top placed teams received free tyres or bonus money to help offset the costs. It's quite common for the tyre companies to be involved in rally championship sponsorship over here, for example the National Championship (the highest series below BRC that takes in Scotland, England and Wales) is sponsored by Kuhmo tyres. The series is also sponsored overall by Dunlop, who will be providing financial support to the organising team to help keep costs down.
If you look at the regulations you can see there are quite a few incentive schemes from manufacturers such as Silcolene Oils, they use their involvement in the sport as a promotional tool for their companies in their national advertising campains. It's all positive as far as the competitors and organisors are concerned, as their involvement helps raise the profile and reduce costs.
On a personal team sponsorship level, you get a complete mixture. You have the multi milionares who buy factory built WRC cars funding this out of their own pocket with their own company sponsorship. You have the fully sponsored drivers who pay the likes of Barretts (ran David Higgins in BRC) to provide the car and then you have the majority of teams who have local sponsorship topping up their own contribution. My own team fitted into this third category, we had the same local sponsor for 10 years, who helped us go from running 1600cc Mk2 escorts, through 2 litre Mk2 escorts and Manta's all the way to full GroupA Escort Cosworths. We started out at single venue type rallies and once we were winning those consistently we stepped up to the national Forest events where we would be winning the class championships, until eventually we went to the full spec GroupA cars where again on a limited budget we were regular top 5 runners against the factory spec cars. Our best at this level was 2nd overall and championship leaders for most of the season in 99.
The sponsor put in around 50% of our costs that year, the team members paid the rest, mostly the driver/co-driver covered these costs but we paid for our own accomodation etc. The key was giving our sponsor good value for money, so we were regularly featured in national motorsport press, we were covered in the local papers and also in the trade papers for our main sponsor. Our main sponsor manufactured Sausages, yes, that right, sausages! The exposure we gave them helped build their business, they used to come to every event with a key customer or supplier in tow and spent the weekend with us, quite often the suppliers to our main sponsor would also give us extra sponsorship to be part of the team and apear in the trade press articles. We used to arange corporate days at a rally school where our sponsor would bring his guests allong for a days rallying, then we would give them a passenger run in the GroupA car at full speed and blow them away. It's all about maximising exposure for your sponsors and giving good value for money. There are so many ways you can tie in your sport to a companies business and make it work for everyone.
[QUOTE=Mopho]
I have been to several Irish rallies and a lot is done to promote the sport there and most drivers have pretty substantial sponsors, but it is a small country (as is yours) and there is quite a saturation of rallies so the sport is pretty easy to get involved. I remember a few people complaining that they had to drive 4 hours to get to the rally I was at (and they were at a rally just the weekend before) :lol:
As you know, towing to a rally here is measured in days not hours so it costs a lot to do a rally, and it can take a week or more to actually compete in a national rally by the time you are done. Rallies are few and far between (there is not a lot of regional rallies), so it is not quite so easy to compete at an entry level here. heck, it's not easy to spectate!
So do you think the marketing and promotion side should be ignored?[/QUOTE]
I know the USA is at a diferent saturation level to established countries like the UK and Ireland, i am also very aware of the extra costs involved with travelling, even at your pathetic fuel cost levels. ;) I am not saying you should copy what we have, but i think its worth taking time out during this transition to take a look outside and see how countries like the UK got to the level they are at. You have a masive car owning population, yet you dont seem to have an established motorsport car club culture of the same style as here, where every county has at least one car club dedicated to motorsport activities, most have multiple clubs that specialise in rally or race activities, this is where the organisors and grass roots competitors come from.
To be able to apply for an MSA competition driving licence, you have to be a member of one of these local clubs, if you dont join you cant go rally. This is a good idea because it gets everyone involved in the sport and gets you in contact with people who organise rallies, want to marshal, want to compete. You get to meet young aspiring drivers/co-drivers who need some help on their way. A good example is a young lad i met at the club who was desperate to co-drive but had no money, i gave him a set of my old overalls and a helmet so he could get started, a few years later he was co-driving profesionally at WRC level because he got good advice and a hand up to get on his way. Without that club he would have found it much harder to get established.
I started out rallying in road rallies, which are events run from 11pm to 7am in the country lanes on public roads. This is a massive sport in the UK, its a major breading ground for co-drivers in particular with the likes of phil mills learning his trade here. It's why the top WRC navies are from the UK. There is a lot of work to be done to build the sport, and i think its esential the grass roots are looked at in particular, without a strong foundation you have nothing to build on. Of course you have to cater for the established guys who are running at Pro Rally level, the two have to go hand in hand.
As your president has been saying a lot lately, "it's hard work" :lol: You have a huge potential that is untapped. The biggest issue for the National series is insurance, but the bigest issue for the sport as a whole is getting the grass roots stronger, much stronger. If you can achieve that then the rest will follow IMHO.
To finish, Marketing and promotion shouldnt be ignored, its absolutely key to building the sport and making it work, that goes for individual competitors, the events and the championship as a whole. You need people to know about what you are doing, i am amazed rally isnt HUGE in the USA with the car culture you have and the roads at your disposal, i was amazed how little local people knew about the event when i was down at Rim last year, and i believe that was one of the more promoted events in the Pro Rally series.
Anyway, i dont have the answers, thats for you guys to work out, i wish you every success because its the greatest sport in the world, more people should know about it.
| joey1313 | 10-08-2004 01:17 PM |
Well, I added my 2 cents. Time for me to go back to lurking in the shadows again. I hope that RA can move the sport in the right direction.
Good luck Doug and RA!
Good luck Doug and RA!
| rallynutdon | 10-08-2004 01:23 PM |
[QUOTE=dch]
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
-Doug[/QUOTE]
Does to me!
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
-Doug[/QUOTE]
Does to me!
| rallynutdon | 10-08-2004 01:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]Doug, I think the issue is that everyone's experience has been just the opposite. It was the sanctioning/rule-making body that was creating stupid, irresponsible rules and the participants had no way to overrule them.
.[/QUOTE]
Or to even voice their opinion on some of the more major changes. Even if decisions are made that we don't agree with, if we atleast have a formal way to voice those opinions/vote on some issues, we'll feel better about the outcome.
.[/QUOTE]
Or to even voice their opinion on some of the more major changes. Even if decisions are made that we don't agree with, if we atleast have a formal way to voice those opinions/vote on some issues, we'll feel better about the outcome.
| LyveWRX | 10-08-2004 01:59 PM |
[quote=johnfelstead]"I started out rallying in road rallies, which are events run from 11pm to 7am in the country lanes on public roads. This is a massive sport in the UK, its a major breading ground for co-drivers in particular with the likes of phil mills learning his trade here. It's why the top WRC navies are from the UK."[/quote]
That's an interesting thing. Road rally is huge over there huh? Well over here its quite minor. Over the last two years of competing in all but 3 of the detroit region RoadRallys I have only ever seen three performance rally competitors out. Two of these are highly experienced National level competitive drivers, while the third was a team that had just purchased a Golf and was shaking it down for Cadillac.
I am completely mystified as to why there are not more "hard-core" ralliests out at teh TSD events. I know that the speeds are generally less than half that of stage rally, but seat time is seat time. And heck the costs are well less than half that of stage rally.
maybe we roadralliests are not as cool, nor as dangerous as stageralliests, however the last stage rally i worked most of the workers (the older ones at least not the kids, heck they dont even know that roadrally exists likely) I had met at a TSD rally.
(I know this post has little to do with the SCCA dropping performance rally, but now I'm scared that if I do build/buy a nice little "slow" VW Jetta (or sirocco, or corrado, or fox,{IdontliketheGolfbody}) That I'll have to pay for two different memberships to be able to compete in both stage and TSD Rally. (cause I will always Rally!))
So now we get to the point: Doug I know you're really busy, and have a lot on your plate, but please consider "stealing" RoadRally from the SCCA while you're at it.
Well more rambling from someone who knows nothing!
nick
That's an interesting thing. Road rally is huge over there huh? Well over here its quite minor. Over the last two years of competing in all but 3 of the detroit region RoadRallys I have only ever seen three performance rally competitors out. Two of these are highly experienced National level competitive drivers, while the third was a team that had just purchased a Golf and was shaking it down for Cadillac.
I am completely mystified as to why there are not more "hard-core" ralliests out at teh TSD events. I know that the speeds are generally less than half that of stage rally, but seat time is seat time. And heck the costs are well less than half that of stage rally.
maybe we roadralliests are not as cool, nor as dangerous as stageralliests, however the last stage rally i worked most of the workers (the older ones at least not the kids, heck they dont even know that roadrally exists likely) I had met at a TSD rally.
(I know this post has little to do with the SCCA dropping performance rally, but now I'm scared that if I do build/buy a nice little "slow" VW Jetta (or sirocco, or corrado, or fox,{IdontliketheGolfbody}) That I'll have to pay for two different memberships to be able to compete in both stage and TSD Rally. (cause I will always Rally!))
So now we get to the point: Doug I know you're really busy, and have a lot on your plate, but please consider "stealing" RoadRally from the SCCA while you're at it.
Well more rambling from someone who knows nothing!
nick
| Mopho | 10-08-2004 02:05 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]My team were winners of the Dunlop series run within the main competition quite a few times, we won that overall in 99. Dunlop provided tyres at competitive discounted rates to all series runners and then the top placed teams received free tyres or bonus money to help offset the costs. It's quite common for the tyre companies to be involved in rally championship sponsorship over here, for example the National Championship (the highest series below BRC that takes in Scotland, England and Wales) is sponsored by Kuhmo tyres. The series is also sponsored overall by Dunlop, who will be providing financial support to the organising team to help keep costs down.
If you look at the regulations you can see there are quite a few incentive schemes from manufacturers such as Silcolene Oils, they use their involvement in the sport as a promotional tool for their companies in their national advertising campains. It's all positive as far as the competitors and organisors are concerned, as their involvement helps raise the profile and reduce costs.
On a personal team sponsorship level, you get a complete mixture. You have the multi milionares who buy factory built WRC cars funding this out of their own pocket with their own company sponsorship. You have the fully sponsored drivers who pay the likes of Barretts (ran David Higgins in BRC) to provide the car and then you have the majority of teams who have local sponsorship topping up their own contribution. My own team fitted into this third category, we had the same local sponsor for 10 years, who helped us go from running 1600cc Mk2 escorts, through 2 litre Mk2 escorts and Manta's all the way to full GroupA Escort Cosworths. We started out at single venue type rallies and once we were winning those consistently we stepped up to the national Forest events where we would be winning the class championships, until eventually we went to the full spec GroupA cars where again on a limited budget we were regular top 5 runners against the factory spec cars. Our best at this level was 2nd overall and championship leaders for most of the season in 99.
The sponsor put in around 50% of our costs that year, the team members paid the rest, mostly the driver/co-driver covered these costs but we paid for our own accomodation etc. The key was giving our sponsor good value for money, so we were regularly featured in national motorsport press, we were covered in the local papers and also in the trade papers for our main sponsor. Our main sponsor manufactured Sausages, yes, that right, sausages! The exposure we gave them helped build their business, they used to come to every event with a key customer or supplier in tow and spent the weekend with us, quite often the suppliers to our main sponsor would also give us extra sponsorship to be part of the team and apear in the trade press articles. We used to arange corporate days at a rally school where our sponsor would bring his guests allong for a days rallying, then we would give them a passenger run in the GroupA car at full speed and blow them away. It's all about maximising exposure for your sponsors and giving good value for money. There are so many ways you can tie in your sport to a companies business and make it work for everyone.
I know the USA is at a diferent saturation level to established countries like the UK and Ireland, i am also very aware of the extra costs involved with travelling, even at your pathetic fuel cost levels. ;) I am not saying you should copy what we have, but i think its worth taking time out during this transition to take a look outside and see how countries like the UK got to the level they are at. You have a masive car owning population, yet you dont seem to have an established motorsport car club culture of the same style as here, where every county has at least one car club dedicated to motorsport activities, most have multiple clubs that specialise in rally or race activities, this is where the organisors and grass roots competitors come from.
To be able to apply for an MSA competition driving licence, you have to be a member of one of these local clubs, if you dont join you cant go rally. This is a good idea because it gets everyone involved in the sport and gets you in contact with people who organise rallies, want to marshal, want to compete. You get to meet young aspiring drivers/co-drivers who need some help on their way. A good example is a young lad i met at the club who was desperate to co-drive but had no money, i gave him a set of my old overalls and a helmet so he could get started, a few years later he was co-driving profesionally at WRC level because he got good advice and a hand up to get on his way. Without that club he would have found it much harder to get established.
I started out rallying in road rallies, which are events run from 11pm to 7am in the country lanes on public roads. This is a massive sport in the UK, its a major breading ground for co-drivers in particular with the likes of phil mills learning his trade here. It's why the top WRC navies are from the UK. There is a lot of work to be done to build the sport, and i think its esential the grass roots are looked at in particular, without a strong foundation you have nothing to build on. Of course you have to cater for the established guys who are running at Pro Rally level, the two have to go hand in hand.
As your president has been saying a lot lately, "it's hard work" :lol: You have a huge potential that is untapped. The biggest issue for the National series is insurance, but the bigest issue for the sport as a whole is getting the grass roots stronger, much stronger. If you can achieve that then the rest will follow IMHO.
To finish, Marketing and promotion shouldnt be ignored, its absolutely key to building the sport and making it work, that goes for individual competitors, the events and the championship as a whole. You need people to know about what you are doing, i am amazed rally isnt HUGE in the USA with the car culture you have and the roads at your disposal, i was amazed how little local people knew about the event when i was down at Rim last year, and i believe that was one of the more promoted events in the Pro Rally series.
Anyway, i dont have the answers, thats for you guys to work out, i wish you every success because its the greatest sport in the world, more people should know about it.[/QUOTE]
Thanks John
A lot of good points in there.
These local clubs you talk of, who starts them? are they organized by the locals or is it something that the national governing body plants the seed?
If you look at the regulations you can see there are quite a few incentive schemes from manufacturers such as Silcolene Oils, they use their involvement in the sport as a promotional tool for their companies in their national advertising campains. It's all positive as far as the competitors and organisors are concerned, as their involvement helps raise the profile and reduce costs.
On a personal team sponsorship level, you get a complete mixture. You have the multi milionares who buy factory built WRC cars funding this out of their own pocket with their own company sponsorship. You have the fully sponsored drivers who pay the likes of Barretts (ran David Higgins in BRC) to provide the car and then you have the majority of teams who have local sponsorship topping up their own contribution. My own team fitted into this third category, we had the same local sponsor for 10 years, who helped us go from running 1600cc Mk2 escorts, through 2 litre Mk2 escorts and Manta's all the way to full GroupA Escort Cosworths. We started out at single venue type rallies and once we were winning those consistently we stepped up to the national Forest events where we would be winning the class championships, until eventually we went to the full spec GroupA cars where again on a limited budget we were regular top 5 runners against the factory spec cars. Our best at this level was 2nd overall and championship leaders for most of the season in 99.
The sponsor put in around 50% of our costs that year, the team members paid the rest, mostly the driver/co-driver covered these costs but we paid for our own accomodation etc. The key was giving our sponsor good value for money, so we were regularly featured in national motorsport press, we were covered in the local papers and also in the trade papers for our main sponsor. Our main sponsor manufactured Sausages, yes, that right, sausages! The exposure we gave them helped build their business, they used to come to every event with a key customer or supplier in tow and spent the weekend with us, quite often the suppliers to our main sponsor would also give us extra sponsorship to be part of the team and apear in the trade press articles. We used to arange corporate days at a rally school where our sponsor would bring his guests allong for a days rallying, then we would give them a passenger run in the GroupA car at full speed and blow them away. It's all about maximising exposure for your sponsors and giving good value for money. There are so many ways you can tie in your sport to a companies business and make it work for everyone.
I know the USA is at a diferent saturation level to established countries like the UK and Ireland, i am also very aware of the extra costs involved with travelling, even at your pathetic fuel cost levels. ;) I am not saying you should copy what we have, but i think its worth taking time out during this transition to take a look outside and see how countries like the UK got to the level they are at. You have a masive car owning population, yet you dont seem to have an established motorsport car club culture of the same style as here, where every county has at least one car club dedicated to motorsport activities, most have multiple clubs that specialise in rally or race activities, this is where the organisors and grass roots competitors come from.
To be able to apply for an MSA competition driving licence, you have to be a member of one of these local clubs, if you dont join you cant go rally. This is a good idea because it gets everyone involved in the sport and gets you in contact with people who organise rallies, want to marshal, want to compete. You get to meet young aspiring drivers/co-drivers who need some help on their way. A good example is a young lad i met at the club who was desperate to co-drive but had no money, i gave him a set of my old overalls and a helmet so he could get started, a few years later he was co-driving profesionally at WRC level because he got good advice and a hand up to get on his way. Without that club he would have found it much harder to get established.
I started out rallying in road rallies, which are events run from 11pm to 7am in the country lanes on public roads. This is a massive sport in the UK, its a major breading ground for co-drivers in particular with the likes of phil mills learning his trade here. It's why the top WRC navies are from the UK. There is a lot of work to be done to build the sport, and i think its esential the grass roots are looked at in particular, without a strong foundation you have nothing to build on. Of course you have to cater for the established guys who are running at Pro Rally level, the two have to go hand in hand.
As your president has been saying a lot lately, "it's hard work" :lol: You have a huge potential that is untapped. The biggest issue for the National series is insurance, but the bigest issue for the sport as a whole is getting the grass roots stronger, much stronger. If you can achieve that then the rest will follow IMHO.
To finish, Marketing and promotion shouldnt be ignored, its absolutely key to building the sport and making it work, that goes for individual competitors, the events and the championship as a whole. You need people to know about what you are doing, i am amazed rally isnt HUGE in the USA with the car culture you have and the roads at your disposal, i was amazed how little local people knew about the event when i was down at Rim last year, and i believe that was one of the more promoted events in the Pro Rally series.
Anyway, i dont have the answers, thats for you guys to work out, i wish you every success because its the greatest sport in the world, more people should know about it.[/QUOTE]
Thanks John
A lot of good points in there.
These local clubs you talk of, who starts them? are they organized by the locals or is it something that the national governing body plants the seed?
| sunnynw | 10-08-2004 02:18 PM |
[QUOTE=joey1313]Some ramblings from an outsider who knows nothing about rally in the US.
I am from Louisiana and have never seen a Rally in the US.
Some here seem to have a high and mighty attitude. Rally can be aloof and only for the elite super duper i've been involved in rally since 1924 crowd and wither away so that memories of the good ole days when we used to race are all thats left(How you like dat runon sentence). All office politics on here is crap. Leave the past in the past.
I like dch's attitude. Screw the past. We start from right now. Learn from the mistakes of others and move forward to make RA the best that it can be.
Its going to be a long hard road for Doug and his company. Give him some slack. It will take years before this can be judged as successful or not. Don't whine and cry when decisions are made the you do not like.
Suck it up and do everything that YOU can do to improve the sport. If everyone worked as hard at improving the sport as they did at whining and complaining, the sport won't take years to get back on its feet.
My hat's off to you Doug and RA.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes the clarity of one who is "not involved" can be AMAZING.
Great post.
Hope someday you can come see/or join us playing in the woods. :)
I am from Louisiana and have never seen a Rally in the US.
Some here seem to have a high and mighty attitude. Rally can be aloof and only for the elite super duper i've been involved in rally since 1924 crowd and wither away so that memories of the good ole days when we used to race are all thats left(How you like dat runon sentence). All office politics on here is crap. Leave the past in the past.
I like dch's attitude. Screw the past. We start from right now. Learn from the mistakes of others and move forward to make RA the best that it can be.
Its going to be a long hard road for Doug and his company. Give him some slack. It will take years before this can be judged as successful or not. Don't whine and cry when decisions are made the you do not like.
Suck it up and do everything that YOU can do to improve the sport. If everyone worked as hard at improving the sport as they did at whining and complaining, the sport won't take years to get back on its feet.
My hat's off to you Doug and RA.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes the clarity of one who is "not involved" can be AMAZING.
Great post.
Hope someday you can come see/or join us playing in the woods. :)
| Mopho | 10-08-2004 02:23 PM |
[QUOTE=LyveWRX]That's an interesting thing. Road rally is huge over there huh? Well over here its quite minor. Over the last two years of competing in all but 3 of the detroit region RoadRallys I have only ever seen three performance rally competitors out. Two of these are highly experienced National level competitive drivers, while the third was a team that had just purchased a Golf and was shaking it down for Cadillac.
I am completely mystified as to why there are not more "hard-core" ralliests out at teh TSD events. I know that the speeds are generally less than half that of stage rally, but seat time is seat time. And heck the costs are well less than half that of stage rally.
maybe we roadralliests are not as cool, nor as dangerous as stageralliests, however the last stage rally i worked most of the workers (the older ones at least not the kids, heck they dont even know that roadrally exists likely) I had met at a TSD rally.
(I know this post has little to do with the SCCA dropping performance rally, but now I'm scared that if I do build/buy a nice little "slow" VW Jetta (or sirocco, or corrado, or fox,{IdontliketheGolfbody}) That I'll have to pay for two different memberships to be able to compete in both stage and TSD Rally. (cause I will always Rally!))
So now we get to the point: Doug I know you're really busy, and have a lot on your plate, but please consider "stealing" RoadRally from the SCCA while you're at it.
Well more rambling from someone who knows nothing!
nick[/QUOTE]
It is because no one knows they exist and not many people even know what it is.
I have been eager to do some TSD rallies but had a lot of difficulty finding any within close proximity.
I went and did a rallycross once, (only knew about it because or word of mouth) drove 4 hours in each direction, I got 4 minutes of seat time! :eek: won't be doing that again.
I am completely mystified as to why there are not more "hard-core" ralliests out at teh TSD events. I know that the speeds are generally less than half that of stage rally, but seat time is seat time. And heck the costs are well less than half that of stage rally.
maybe we roadralliests are not as cool, nor as dangerous as stageralliests, however the last stage rally i worked most of the workers (the older ones at least not the kids, heck they dont even know that roadrally exists likely) I had met at a TSD rally.
(I know this post has little to do with the SCCA dropping performance rally, but now I'm scared that if I do build/buy a nice little "slow" VW Jetta (or sirocco, or corrado, or fox,{IdontliketheGolfbody}) That I'll have to pay for two different memberships to be able to compete in both stage and TSD Rally. (cause I will always Rally!))
So now we get to the point: Doug I know you're really busy, and have a lot on your plate, but please consider "stealing" RoadRally from the SCCA while you're at it.
Well more rambling from someone who knows nothing!
nick[/QUOTE]
It is because no one knows they exist and not many people even know what it is.
I have been eager to do some TSD rallies but had a lot of difficulty finding any within close proximity.
I went and did a rallycross once, (only knew about it because or word of mouth) drove 4 hours in each direction, I got 4 minutes of seat time! :eek: won't be doing that again.
| dch | 10-08-2004 02:41 PM |
[QUOTE=johnfelstead]The biggest issue for the National series is insurance, but the bigest issue for the sport as a whole is getting the grass roots stronger, much stronger. If you can achieve that then the rest will follow IMHO.[/QUOTE]Amen to that. If you ask them, even the manufacturers will tell you that a strong grass roots program is an absolute necessity. The fact that it hasn't had the attention in the past I feel it requires is something I am now in a position to change. And I intend to.
Cheers,
-Doug
Cheers,
-Doug
| sunnynw | 10-08-2004 03:08 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]It is because no one knows they exist and not many people even know what it is.
I have been eager to do some TSD rallies but had a lot of difficulty finding any within close proximity.
I went and did a rallycross once, (only knew about it because or word of mouth) drove 4 hours in each direction, I got 4 minutes of seat time! :eek: won't be doing that again.[/QUOTE]
You just live on the wrong coast... ;)
I have been eager to do some TSD rallies but had a lot of difficulty finding any within close proximity.
I went and did a rallycross once, (only knew about it because or word of mouth) drove 4 hours in each direction, I got 4 minutes of seat time! :eek: won't be doing that again.[/QUOTE]
You just live on the wrong coast... ;)
| RB5 Clone | 10-08-2004 03:18 PM |
AMEN to grassroots, dch
�
�
"Grassroots" and "intend to fix" in the same post?
Ahh, words of sweet music to a team whose cars contain a high percentage of parts scavenged from the local recycler's yard.
dch, in your thinking about a regional series to support the national program, please remember the NA AWD guys...a la Spec Sube thread on SS a couple weeks ago
Spec Sube: aimed at older body style Imprezas and Legacies as an "affordable" starter class for AWD pilotes
no turbos
2.2 engines (or weight-penalized 2.5s)
stock ECUs
free suspension (or spec DMS 50s, aka s-e-r-i-e-s s-p-o-n-s-o-r)
stock brake hardware, pads free
stock gearing (no JDM 4.44s)
limited slip diffs OK (traction keeps U outa the trees)
Kumho tires (another series supporter)
etc
cheers, keep up good work, & duck those slings and arrows!
Dave G
Ahh, words of sweet music to a team whose cars contain a high percentage of parts scavenged from the local recycler's yard.
dch, in your thinking about a regional series to support the national program, please remember the NA AWD guys...a la Spec Sube thread on SS a couple weeks ago
Spec Sube: aimed at older body style Imprezas and Legacies as an "affordable" starter class for AWD pilotes
no turbos
2.2 engines (or weight-penalized 2.5s)
stock ECUs
free suspension (or spec DMS 50s, aka s-e-r-i-e-s s-p-o-n-s-o-r)
stock brake hardware, pads free
stock gearing (no JDM 4.44s)
limited slip diffs OK (traction keeps U outa the trees)
Kumho tires (another series supporter)
etc
cheers, keep up good work, & duck those slings and arrows!
Dave G
| Pete 97 GS-T | 10-08-2004 03:37 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]What is the point of bitching about the SCCA now? It does not matter, so put your efforts into helping[/QUOTE]
This is it precisely. We virtually have a clean slate to work with. We can't change the past. Let's make the future as good as it can be.
I'm behind you 100% Doug! I'll shoot you an e-mail soon.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
This is it precisely. We virtually have a clean slate to work with. We can't change the past. Let's make the future as good as it can be.
I'm behind you 100% Doug! I'll shoot you an e-mail soon.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Jens | 10-08-2004 03:54 PM |
[QUOTE=dch]I'm not saying I'm against giving people a chance to vote on items. I am saying that not every last detail can or should be put to a vote and then executed regardless of the reality of being able to act on the outcome without damaging the sport.
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
-Doug[/QUOTE]
Sounds reasonable and proper to me.
Regards,
Jens
Does that make sense?
Cheers,
-Doug[/QUOTE]
Sounds reasonable and proper to me.
Regards,
Jens
| Mopho | 10-08-2004 04:30 PM |
[QUOTE=sunnynw]You just live on the wrong coast... ;)[/QUOTE]
Not for too much longer ;)
Not for too much longer ;)
| RichardM | 10-08-2004 04:35 PM |
[QUOTE=joey1313]Some ramblings from an outsider who knows nothing about rally in the US.
I am from Louisiana and have never seen a Rally in the US.
Come to Paris this Thanksgiving weekend.
Richard
I am from Louisiana and have never seen a Rally in the US.
Come to Paris this Thanksgiving weekend.
Richard
| LyveWRX | 10-08-2004 06:42 PM |
[quote=mopho]"I went and did a rallycross once, (only knew about it because or word of mouth) drove 4 hours in each direction, I got 4 minutes of seat time!"[/quote]
yep, thats why I TSD -- at the last event I got 29hrs of seat time, although there were maybe 5hrs of transit......
(mbiker97 and I placed 3rd in stock class!)
and to keep it on topic:
I'm really excited about the spec 2.2! sounds perfect -- NA, If it's expensive and makes you go faster its not allowed, and AWD (once you try it you never want back -- well except for Doug Shepard!)
yep, thats why I TSD -- at the last event I got 29hrs of seat time, although there were maybe 5hrs of transit......
(mbiker97 and I placed 3rd in stock class!)
and to keep it on topic:
I'm really excited about the spec 2.2! sounds perfect -- NA, If it's expensive and makes you go faster its not allowed, and AWD (once you try it you never want back -- well except for Doug Shepard!)
| johnfelstead | 10-08-2004 11:02 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]Thanks John
A lot of good points in there.
These local clubs you talk of, who starts them? are they organized by the locals or is it something that the national governing body plants the seed?[/QUOTE]
Enthusiasts start them. The history of motorsport in the UK goes back to the invention of the motor vehicle, so its dificult to give an exact answer as to how things have evolved, but the way it has always worked to my knowledge is that groups of people get together and share a common interest, and they form a club based around that interest. Once there is a desire to get involved in motorsport at an organised level they would then aproach the MSA to become an afiliated member which would provide them with the legal and insurance backing to do that. To organise a motorsport event in the UK you have to get an event permit from the MSA, without this competitors can be prosecuted by the police for dangerous driving, even on a closed course such as a private carpark or forest. Part of the MSA coverage gives you a waiver from some of the laws relating to use of vehicles.
New clubs are still forming today, one make car clubs are springing up nationally for example, eventually these clubs grow to a point where the members want to organise a local 12 car rally, or want to get into marshalling as a group. There is a structure at the MSA that is there to help these clubs grow, there is a lot of information and advice there to steer them in the right direction.
A lot of good points in there.
These local clubs you talk of, who starts them? are they organized by the locals or is it something that the national governing body plants the seed?[/QUOTE]
Enthusiasts start them. The history of motorsport in the UK goes back to the invention of the motor vehicle, so its dificult to give an exact answer as to how things have evolved, but the way it has always worked to my knowledge is that groups of people get together and share a common interest, and they form a club based around that interest. Once there is a desire to get involved in motorsport at an organised level they would then aproach the MSA to become an afiliated member which would provide them with the legal and insurance backing to do that. To organise a motorsport event in the UK you have to get an event permit from the MSA, without this competitors can be prosecuted by the police for dangerous driving, even on a closed course such as a private carpark or forest. Part of the MSA coverage gives you a waiver from some of the laws relating to use of vehicles.
New clubs are still forming today, one make car clubs are springing up nationally for example, eventually these clubs grow to a point where the members want to organise a local 12 car rally, or want to get into marshalling as a group. There is a structure at the MSA that is there to help these clubs grow, there is a lot of information and advice there to steer them in the right direction.
| Weasel 555 | 10-08-2004 11:14 PM |
i'm with John on what he's saying in regards to the base and progression of Rallying
(the UK rally scene as a idea from grassroots up)
btw...keep up the good work dch :)
(the UK rally scene as a idea from grassroots up)
btw...keep up the good work dch :)
| X-VWGLX | 10-08-2004 11:19 PM |
USA = land of the lawyers
�
�
if our society was not so letigous, we could all enjoy ourselves more. people need to stop suing whenever things go wrong. the world is a dangerous place, and life has no guarentees.
"..everything isn't supposed to be O.K" - Greenday
"..everything isn't supposed to be O.K" - Greenday
| johnfelstead | 10-08-2004 11:48 PM |
[QUOTE=LyveWRX]That's an interesting thing. Road rally is huge over there huh? Well over here its quite minor. Over the last two years of competing in all but 3 of the detroit region RoadRallys I have only ever seen three performance rally competitors out. Two of these are highly experienced National level competitive drivers, while the third was a team that had just purchased a Golf and was shaking it down for Cadillac.
I am completely mystified as to why there are not more "hard-core" ralliests out at teh TSD events. I know that the speeds are generally less than half that of stage rally, but seat time is seat time. And heck the costs are well less than half that of stage rally.
maybe we roadralliests are not as cool, nor as dangerous as stageralliests, however the last stage rally i worked most of the workers (the older ones at least not the kids, heck they dont even know that roadrally exists likely) I had met at a TSD rally.
[/QUOTE]
Road Rally in the UK is HUGE, without road rally i most likely wouldnt have become a rally driver. I knew about WRC from a young age, but i never thought it was accesable to me, a lad from inner city manchester with no money. That was until i came accross a local guy with an old MK2 escort with big spotlamps on the front who used to clear off for the weekend having fun. I was just about old enough to drive, so my mates and I jumped in our cars and found what was going on, and we were hooked.
I spent 2 years marshalling on these night rallies running the stage finish controls, we used to man 3 controls a night and we had a blast getting involved with the crews and once the control was closed finding our way cross country to the next one. The stories i have from back then are hilarous as we found our routes trying to get ahead of the competitors using shortcuts ploted on OS maps.
Doing this gave me enough knowledge and enthusiasm to make the next step and i realised there was no reason why i couldnt compete myself. So i built a cheap car to go road rallying whilst i continued to marshal. Through the motor club i joined as a result of finding road rally i then got involved with marshalling on stage rallies, both single venue and forest and i realised that wasnt too out of my league either. So i converted my road rally car to a stage rally car and started to drive at that level. That led to me meeting lots of other competitors and eventually to me helping on one of the top privateer rally teams in national rallying.
Hopefully you can see from this, without the grass roots being there for me to discover, i would never have thought i could do this sport myself, despite me knowing about the upper level of WRC and loving that.
TSD is an interesting thing to mention, I have competed in three TSD rallies in the USA and Canada as a navigator, entering the TBird rally in BC twice and No Alibi in WA. I think its an important area to build on in the USA because of the challenge involved to the driver and Navigator, its also very affordable and you dont have the issues with regards to insurance because its using road legal cars and public roads. The organising teams also have to put in a lot of work to run these events which is very relevent to the type of work required in running a Stage rally event. It's a great breading ground that isnt being fully exploited yet.
I am completely mystified as to why there are not more "hard-core" ralliests out at teh TSD events. I know that the speeds are generally less than half that of stage rally, but seat time is seat time. And heck the costs are well less than half that of stage rally.
maybe we roadralliests are not as cool, nor as dangerous as stageralliests, however the last stage rally i worked most of the workers (the older ones at least not the kids, heck they dont even know that roadrally exists likely) I had met at a TSD rally.
[/QUOTE]
Road Rally in the UK is HUGE, without road rally i most likely wouldnt have become a rally driver. I knew about WRC from a young age, but i never thought it was accesable to me, a lad from inner city manchester with no money. That was until i came accross a local guy with an old MK2 escort with big spotlamps on the front who used to clear off for the weekend having fun. I was just about old enough to drive, so my mates and I jumped in our cars and found what was going on, and we were hooked.
I spent 2 years marshalling on these night rallies running the stage finish controls, we used to man 3 controls a night and we had a blast getting involved with the crews and once the control was closed finding our way cross country to the next one. The stories i have from back then are hilarous as we found our routes trying to get ahead of the competitors using shortcuts ploted on OS maps.
Doing this gave me enough knowledge and enthusiasm to make the next step and i realised there was no reason why i couldnt compete myself. So i built a cheap car to go road rallying whilst i continued to marshal. Through the motor club i joined as a result of finding road rally i then got involved with marshalling on stage rallies, both single venue and forest and i realised that wasnt too out of my league either. So i converted my road rally car to a stage rally car and started to drive at that level. That led to me meeting lots of other competitors and eventually to me helping on one of the top privateer rally teams in national rallying.
Hopefully you can see from this, without the grass roots being there for me to discover, i would never have thought i could do this sport myself, despite me knowing about the upper level of WRC and loving that.
TSD is an interesting thing to mention, I have competed in three TSD rallies in the USA and Canada as a navigator, entering the TBird rally in BC twice and No Alibi in WA. I think its an important area to build on in the USA because of the challenge involved to the driver and Navigator, its also very affordable and you dont have the issues with regards to insurance because its using road legal cars and public roads. The organising teams also have to put in a lot of work to run these events which is very relevent to the type of work required in running a Stage rally event. It's a great breading ground that isnt being fully exploited yet.
| mike270 | 10-09-2004 02:24 AM |
For those who haven't seen this yet. I appologize if this has been posted before. Looks like VERY good news to me!!!
from [url]www.rally-live.com/en/[/url]
ProRally and ClubRally to continue in 2005?
Sports Car Club or America and Rally America officials met Thursday, discussing the transition of the ProRally and ClubRally programs from SCCA to Rally America.
After the productive talks closed, several key components of the transition, including rules, licensing and tentative scheduling had been resolved.
�Our meeting with SCCA was extremely productive,� said President of Rally America Doug Havir. �I would like to personally thank Steve Johnson and his staff for helping to make this transition as smooth as possible. They are doing absolutely everything within their power to assist Rally America, and because both sides are working toward a common goal, I have no doubt that rally in the United States will grow stronger than ever.�
Havir also said that Rally America is currently in negotiations with multiple insurance brokers. After discussions were completed Thursday, the following agreements were set for 2005:
- Rally America will begin issuing its own competition licenses Jan. 1, 2005, and will honor current SCCA competition licenses until their expiration date.
- Rally America will use the 2005 SCCA rule book, event operations manual, log books and class structure.
- Competitors who hold a valid SCCA membership will receive a rebate on their event entry fee in 2005.
- Rally America plans on releasing a 2005 rally schedule at the SCCA Lake Superior ProRally event (Oct. 23-24), the final round of the SCCA ProRally Championship Presented by Hot Wheels�.
Press release
SCCA
from [url]www.rally-live.com/en/[/url]
ProRally and ClubRally to continue in 2005?
Sports Car Club or America and Rally America officials met Thursday, discussing the transition of the ProRally and ClubRally programs from SCCA to Rally America.
After the productive talks closed, several key components of the transition, including rules, licensing and tentative scheduling had been resolved.
�Our meeting with SCCA was extremely productive,� said President of Rally America Doug Havir. �I would like to personally thank Steve Johnson and his staff for helping to make this transition as smooth as possible. They are doing absolutely everything within their power to assist Rally America, and because both sides are working toward a common goal, I have no doubt that rally in the United States will grow stronger than ever.�
Havir also said that Rally America is currently in negotiations with multiple insurance brokers. After discussions were completed Thursday, the following agreements were set for 2005:
- Rally America will begin issuing its own competition licenses Jan. 1, 2005, and will honor current SCCA competition licenses until their expiration date.
- Rally America will use the 2005 SCCA rule book, event operations manual, log books and class structure.
- Competitors who hold a valid SCCA membership will receive a rebate on their event entry fee in 2005.
- Rally America plans on releasing a 2005 rally schedule at the SCCA Lake Superior ProRally event (Oct. 23-24), the final round of the SCCA ProRally Championship Presented by Hot Wheels�.
Press release
SCCA
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