masiocinterior: STIs Vs BMWs in STU part 1

makofoto

01-18-2006 04:41 PM

STIs Vs BMWs in STU
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We notice that the BMW's are consistently faster on courses with lots of transitional elements while the STI's have the upper hand on courses that have more steady state corners.

Any suggestions on what needs to be done to make the STU STI's faster in transition.

ChrisW

01-18-2006 04:44 PM

bye bye STI [img]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/icons/nasioc/icon_kitty.gif[/img]

A "resonably prepared" STU Evo can beat a well prepped STU BMW. :devil:

<grabs flame suite>:alien:

wm07	01-18-2006 04:56 PM

but where are the "reasonably prepared" STU Evos? there are none! :P

makofoto

01-18-2006 05:13 PM

Rick Jung and his, according to him, 95% prepped Evo, had I believe the fastest scratch times at Nationals last year. He ended up 2nd in our CSCC regional STU Championship, losing the championship at the last race of the year to Pierre Maurier's BMW.

ratt_finkel

01-18-2006 05:17 PM

[QUOTE=wm07]but where are the "reasonably prepared" STU Evos? there are none! :P[/QUOTE]
You might see one this year ;)

Patrick L

01-18-2006 05:36 PM

You guys need too remember that we are also going to be on asphaut at Nationals. The RWD guy better be able to the fit the max wide tire allowed in the class cause IMO, they are at a disadvantage being on asphaut. Also, the last 3 Nats (STX,STX,DSP), I have run in the rain which was the first day run. I wonder if the date change to late Sept well bring drier weather.

Corey

01-18-2006 05:57 PM

[QUOTE=Top_Dog]I wonder if the date change to late Sept well bring drier weather.[/QUOTE]

I hope not. :lol:

Corey #89 STS

Draken

01-18-2006 05:59 PM

Mako: i don't know the answer to your question, but I'm excited to find out! It appears the Cal events this year (NT and Pro) should have a good turn out. I'm hoping to make a couple of those too.

Chris H.

10th Warrior

01-18-2006 06:14 PM

[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]You might see one this year ;)[/QUOTE]
but it won't be competitive. Or do you have a codriver? :p

zzyzx

01-18-2006 06:25 PM

BMW > *

/thread

KC	01-18-2006 06:37 PM

[QUOTE=zzyzx]BMW > *

/thread[/QUOTE]
And then? ;)

solo2wrx

01-18-2006 10:14 PM

[QUOTE=Top_Dog]You guys need too remember that we are also going to be on asphaut at Nationals. The RWD guy better be able to the fit the max wide tire allowed in the class cause IMO, they are at a disadvantage being on asphaut. Also, the last 3 Nats (STX,STX,DSP), I have run in the rain which was the first day run. I wonder if the date change to late Sept well bring drier weather.[/QUOTE]

If you think that a slightly lower grip surface will put the BMW's at a huge disadvantage you might want to think again. With my experience RWD is not a much slower with a good driver than AWD. You can hold a drift in either AWD or RWD at the same speed. RWD just requires more patience and throttle modulation to hold it and be smooth. Once you have witnessed a totally stock E36 M3 on street tires beat out prepped STU STI's you start to realize how fast the car can be. Now if it is raining then it is a different story.

Scoobie Doogie

01-18-2006 10:21 PM

Well just have to see then. I'm running STU in a well prepped STi in the WDCR series against Mike Neary. I can't say cuz I don't know. I'll post results to see where we are relative to Mike. He's a good driver for sure and will be great competition.

Dave
(hoping to not get his ass kicked)

makofoto

01-18-2006 11:36 PM

Draken ... see you at the National events in San Diego and Fontana.

Our local BMW's are starting to run 265/35/18 Advan Neova's, something like $220 a piece! R tire prices. :-( And they are getting co-drivers like National Champ Steve Oblenes and our '05 PAX Champ Karl Asseily. At our season opener last Sunday we had 18 entries in STU.

Scoobie Doogie

01-19-2006 09:11 AM

Are the Neova's that much better than the Azenis RT-615's? Maybe they are doing it for width?

Dave

ratt_finkel

01-19-2006 09:19 AM

[QUOTE=10th Warrior]but it won't be competitive. Or do you have a codriver? :p[/QUOTE]
har har har ;)

[QUOTE=Scoobie Doogie]Are the Neova's that much better than the Azenis RT-615's? Maybe they are doing it for width?

Dave[/QUOTE]
It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$

It helps they are decent tires as well.

AtomicRacer

01-19-2006 11:06 AM

[QUOTE=makofoto]Rick Jung and his, according to him, 95% prepped Evo, had I believe the fastest scratch times at Nationals last year. He ended up 2nd in our CSCC regional STU Championship, losing the championship at the last race of the year to Pierre Maurier's BMW.[/QUOTE]

This is not correct about Richard's raw times. With nobody having cone penalties it would have ended up like this:

NAME................YEAR/CAR.......TIRE.......NORTH.........SOUTH.........TOTAL......
Michael Neary.....1995 BMW.......Falken.....5...62.610....1...61.692....1...124.302
Richard Jung.......2003 Misubishi.Yok.........3...62.438....5...62.572....2...125.010
Branden Burkhart.2004 Subaru....Falken.....6...62.617....3...62.428....3...125.045
Brian Hanchey....1997 BMW.......Falken.....1...61.802....13..63.281....4...125.083
Terry Fair..........1997 BMW.......Falken.....2...62.430....8...62.961....5...125.391
Paul Magyar.......2005 Subaru....Falken.....10..63.095....4...62.562....6...125.657

So you can see Brian Hanchey had the north coarse fastest time with a 61.802 and Michael Neary had the south coarse fastest time at 61.692 (both of those are official clean times BTW). I see 3 M3's in the top five (I included top 6 because I am vain ;) )

-Paul

AUTOwrXER

01-19-2006 12:22 PM

[QUOTE=KC]And then? ;)[/QUOTE]

NO AND THEN! (sorry, couldn't resist)

IMO the AWD cars will become the class leaders with the move to asphalt. That is, until they get kicked out of STU over boost issues: [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/170226.aspx[/url]

Got Pink?

01-19-2006 02:16 PM

Keep in mind that M3's like Mike Neary's were fully prepped last year and a lot of the rally cars are just getting there. Dave is co driving my car and it will be fully prepped in time for the first DC event in march against Mike Neary and others.

Nate

AtomicRacer

01-19-2006 03:22 PM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]NO AND THEN! (sorry, couldn't resist)

IMO the AWD cars will become the class leaders with the move to asphalt. That is, until they get kicked out of STU over boost issues: [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/170226.aspx[/url][/QUOTE]

I am so sick of that damn thread. Bunch of whinny a$$e$.

-Paul

AUTOwrXER

01-19-2006 03:32 PM

[QUOTE=Got Pink?]Keep in mind that M3's like Mike Neary's were fully prepped last year and a lot of the rally cars are just getting there. Dave is co driving my car and it will be fully prepped in time for the first DC event in march against Mike Neary and others.

Nate[/QUOTE]

By "fully prepped", I assume he's running Motons with Lee's valving, stock overbore allowance, etc. I haven't seen anyone go that far yet, though Jung's car was probably the closest.

AtomicRacer

01-19-2006 03:51 PM

There was another EVO last year with Moton's and 9.5" Enkei's. Sure looked pretty... that is all I can say. =)

-Paul

ratt_finkel

01-19-2006 03:54 PM

[QUOTE=AtomicRacer]There was another EVO last year with Moton's and 9.5" Enkei's. Sure looked pretty... that is all I can say. =)

-Paul[/QUOTE]
Dave Heinrich, I know his setup very well. I can tell you it was damn near fully prepped as well. He was running Motons Joel :p
We both know that they won't win you a championship alone though.

trhoppe

01-19-2006 06:26 PM

[QUOTE=makofoto]We notice that the BMW's are consistently faster on courses with lots of transitional elements while the STI's have the upper hand on courses that have more steady state corners.

Any suggestions on what needs to be done to make the STU STI's faster in transition.[/QUOTE] Learn to drive better. There is NO WAY that an M3 should beat an STi in an autox regardless of the course design.

-Tom

sstrano

01-19-2006 07:56 PM

Neary's car isn't fully prepped... He went well in Topeka, but he and the car can go faster (and that's not a cut on anybody or their driving).

We're working spring rates, dyno tuning, different tires. And we ran together @ a Philly event back in October and I was not quite .7 faster.... the course wasn't great, but we had to run the same thing.

We're working on making the car better, and I have no doubt it will be since I did this all before on another M3 I drive a lot. I also feel Mike's driving will continue to improve as well.

I have to disagree on the STi over M3 no matter what. Though I feel it's a wash, but the more slaloms, the better an M3 will do. The more you have to accelerate, or if you can get into 3rd, the better the STi will do. However, on any given course I think that either car can win. After all, an M3 is NOT a Camaro. :)

Scoobie Doogie

01-19-2006 10:14 PM

Ha! Sammy made a funnay. Don't help him too much Sam, I'm not that good of a driver yet.

Dave

makofoto

01-19-2006 11:33 PM

Tom ... I was pointing out that over our '05 season there was a TREND that the BMW's were faster on transitional courses, the AWD cars faster on steady state heavy courses. As our STI drivers get better ... so are the BMW drivers! That would seem to be OBVIOUS! (Who is that Hoppe fellow?! :p)

BMW drivers = Steve Oblenes, Chris Teague (Atwater Tour STU winner), Karl Asseily, Pierre Maurier (CSCC '05 STU Champ)

AWD drivers = Mark Coleman (San Diego STU Tour winner), Rick Jung (2nd CSCC '05 STU Championship), Max Hayter coming on strong with his '06 STI, Tom Shepard (up and coming San Diego STU STI, beat a lot of our established STU drivers at the season opener). And for this years San Diego tour, KC is promising to show us how it's done driving Rocky's STI.

KC	01-20-2006 07:56 AM

Karl's gone back to ST? Sweet! Is this the ex DSP car?

[QUOTE]And for this years San Diego tour, KC is promising to show us how it's done driving Rocky's STI.[/QUOTE] Whoa there. I have made no comment of the sort. If you think that, go right ahead if it'll make you drive better than throwing mods at the car. :lol:

--kC

BlkWRXWag

01-20-2006 10:15 AM

[QUOTE=KC]Karl's gone back to ST? Sweet! Is this the ex DSP car?[/QUOTE]

No, that car is still in DSP. Karl has actually moved back to his home country but plans on making occasional appearances here. He was codriving one of the regular STU BMW's.

-Max.

RacerMike

01-28-2006 03:02 PM

[QUOTE=AtomicRacer]I am so sick of that damn thread. Bunch of whinny a$$e$.

-Paul[/QUOTE]

Um, actually, most of the whining is being done by Subaru drivers :eek:

makofoto

01-28-2006 03:08 PM

related Thread on the SCCA Forum, vis a vis Turbo Boost "control"

[url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/18/174423/ShowThread.aspx#174423[/url]

jcroy66

01-28-2006 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=RacerMike]Um, actually, most of the whining is being done by Subaru drivers :eek:[/QUOTE]Yeah, whatever. :huh: My point (as well as several others) in that thread is that we disagree that something is "broken" and needs to be "fixed". Our point is that enforcement can be performed. And that therefore, drastic changes to the category do [b]not [/b]have to be done. (On that note, HUGE kudos to Jeff for his efforts in finding the openECU stuff. Thanks!)

Until the last two months, I hadn't heard anyone say they actually felt there was a problem. No one came to me in person and said "Hey, I'm concerned that there's no way to monitor boost in turbo cars. What can we do about that?" If those of you who apparently feel that this is a huge problem had done us the courtesy of an in-person conversation before laying into us in the off-season, maybe you would have had a different reaction. There certainly could have been an actual conversation about the various options. For instance, the pros/cons of Delta Dash, which has been the standard enforcement method previously.

And I can guarantee there would have been a different reaction if the NA owners had at least approached the issue as "What would be an appropriate solution?" instead of approaching it as "[b]Here[/b] is the appropriate solution." :(

DrBiggly

01-28-2006 04:31 PM

Jen,
Actually I've yet to see the NA drivers offer up a viable solution to anything. They'd much rather treat any turbo drivers suggestions as skeet and shoot them down.

I'll say this; thanks to Jeff, I intend to aid him in compiling data from as many ECUs as possible from '02 to '05 so that a data set range can be given and then compared against. I intend to be able to prove my own legality and thus place the burden of "How am I illegal" directly back on the protestor, whose claims were baseless to start with. Just that now we have a more definitive way to show those claims as such. :)

-Biggly

jcroy66

01-28-2006 04:42 PM

Biggly, I agree. My point was that the NA drivers seemed to approach it as "here is the only possible solution" and ignored us FI drivers when we responded "your solution is just not viable".

As for the openECU stuff, Phil and I are trying. We're having some problems getting it to work for us, though. We'll post up what we find out once we get it working though. We'll see what we can do with the local Subaru community too, but umm, there are very few of them that are actually stock-boost anymore. :) (And before anyone says "see, that's a reason why ST boost should be unregulated!", let me follow that up by saying very few of them are stock turbo either. They'd simply never be potential ST competitors, regardless of boost allowances.)

DrBiggly

01-28-2006 04:56 PM

Jen,
You need to make sure to plug in that connector under the dash before trying to make the thing connect. Did you guys get the Tactrix cable? I had a talk with the guy who wrote it last night on the phone and that is the ONLY cable that will work with his software. :)

-Biggly

PhilC

01-28-2006 05:21 PM

Got the Tactrix cable, plugged the green connector in. No worky. I'm not sure if I have a driver problem or if there is something wrong with the cable or what. The cable did break the very first time I tried to pull it out of the dash and I had to put it back together. I'm going to try to get some help with my problem from those over at OpenECU and see what we can get out of it.

Spoke to Jeff at length about it this afternoon and I'm all for trying to find as many stock and STX modified ECUs to dump as possible if I can get the software to work.

On the STI vs BMW part of this thread I'm not sure I saw any cars in STU this past year at Nationals that I would consider anywhere near fully prepped. I still think that with the proper offset wheels 275s in the rear on an M3 shouldn't be a problem and more rubber could go a long way but it's so far down on power that I'm not sure it can ever keep up on a big National size course. I just hope people are done whining about the MAF "take back" that they were never allowed to do in the first place. At any rate the class in general should start getting faster by leaps and bounds IMO.

DrBiggly

01-28-2006 05:31 PM

Phil, the green connector is for flashing and not reading was what I was told. Try the other one? :)

-Biggly

PossumK

01-28-2006 07:21 PM

The green one is for reading. You need the wire jumper connector only for flashing. Did you install the drivers? If you're using Windows, make sure the cable is showing up as a COMM port in Device Manager, and use that COMM port number with the flash software.

DrBiggly

01-28-2006 07:56 PM

[QUOTE=PossumK]The green one is for reading. You need the wire jumper connector only for flashing. Did you install the drivers? If you're using Windows, make sure the cable is showing up as a COMM port in Device Manager, and use that COMM port number with the flash software.[/QUOTE]
I talked with the designer of the software on the phone last night (Colby) and he had said otherwise. I suppose try it either way? :)

-Biggly

GREGS2point5

01-28-2006 08:07 PM

What exactly is a "reasonable prepared" STI? I mean come on... a 95 M3 STOCK VS an STI... The only part where the STI is faster is below 100 MPH... and the M3 handles better... so any suspension upgrades you put into the M3 will make it all that much better... i dont know exactly how much to make a fully race prepped STI...but I can grab a 92' 325is BMW for less than 5, gut and full cage for 5, supercharge for 7, Full Moton Suspension for 10, and set of track wheels and slicks for 2 grand... thats 29,000 dollars... What is an STI new?

If you wanna road race id go with the BMW :) I like my 99 m3 alot...

PossumK

01-28-2006 08:17 PM

[QUOTE=DrBiggly]I talked with the designer of the software on the phone last night (Colby) and he had said otherwise. I suppose try it either way? :)

-Biggly[/QUOTE]

Was he inebriated? It's mentioned several times on his own website that the jumper connectors provide a voltage needed for flashing. The green connectors put the car into a test mode, which you need to read the ECU. This worked without problems for me. Ask him again. ;)

afpdl

01-28-2006 08:27 PM

[QUOTE=GREGS2point5]What exactly is a "reasonable prepared" STI? I mean come on... a 95 M3 STOCK VS an STI... The only part where the STI is faster is below 100 MPH... and the M3 handles better... so any suspension upgrades you put into the M3 will make it all that much better... i dont know exactly how much to make a fully race prepped STI...but I can grab a 92' 325is BMW for less than 5, gut and full cage for 5, supercharge for 7, Full Moton Suspension for 10, and set of track wheels and slicks for 2 grand... thats 29,000 dollars... What is an STI new?

If you wanna road race id go with the BMW :) I like my 99 m3 alot...[/QUOTE]
Well I guess it really is a better STU car :huh:

sciolist

01-28-2006 09:30 PM

[QUOTE=GREGS2point5]The only part where the STI is faster is below 100 MPH[/QUOTE]

:huh:

PhilC

01-28-2006 09:50 PM

Biggly and others. I've tried it darn near every way I can think of. It simply doesn't work. Maybe it's because I'm using the VCM drivers and not the direct drivers, I don't know. I'm going to try pretty much every combination I can think of tomorrow before I call Colby and find out what is up. I'd like to think I'm not a computer illiterate but I'm starting to feel that way.

Gregs2point5. When you get a clue about BMWs, motorsports, cars, and the cost of Motons come back and talk to us again. I made the mistake of selling our '93 325i sport with 150+K miles on it nearly three years ago for $4800. If I could buy that same car back for that price today I'd do it in a second. I honestly feel, despite what Tom says, that a '95 M3 with proper development could in fact compete with the STiEVOs in STU on all but the most wide open courses. I don't currently have the money to try it or the patience to find an unmolested '95 with low miles and if I really wanted to get back into the BMW world I would be trying an E30 M3 in STX myself.

z3coupe

01-28-2006 10:13 PM

[QUOTE]And for this years San Diego tour, KC is promising to show us how it's done driving Rocky's STI.[/QUOTE]It appears this may not happen. After 15 years with my company, they decided to outsource, and I have 90 days to find another job. So, unless something happens soon, I won't be there, and KC is thus looking for another ride - though I DID offer him to borrow my car (as long as its insured and taken care of if . . . . . . . ). I would really like to see KC drive it though! Would tell me more if it is more my driving, or my car (or both LOL).

So KC, the offer is still there . . . . .

Scott Farmer

01-28-2006 11:35 PM

AUTOwrXER

01-29-2006 07:37 AM

Is there a way to block posts by any member number over 100,000?

trhoppe

01-29-2006 10:31 AM

[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Is there a way to block posts by any member number over 100,000?[/QUOTE]
I've already asked. They won't let us :(

At least Nick should give us that option in the control panel so we can "auto-ignore" 100K+ n00bs.

-Tom

MattNJ2.8

01-29-2006 11:20 AM

GREGS2point5

01-29-2006 11:54 AM

im not talking about the rules... im talking about ROAD RACING in general...
a BMW is better... And i was making a point that I can have a full out racecar for the price fo an STI new...

And to the "noobs" comments... lets look at my BMW forum post counts...

8000 on bimmerforums
and 3500 on euroteknik...

Just a noob to subaru's and was trying to give some basic information and reccommend a BMW over any subaru for road racing

GREGS2point5

01-29-2006 11:57 AM

[QUOTE=solo2wrx]If you think that a slightly lower grip surface will put the BMW's at a huge disadvantage you might want to think again. With my experience RWD is not a much slower with a good driver than AWD. You can hold a drift in either AWD or RWD at the same speed. RWD just requires more patience and throttle modulation to hold it and be smooth. Once you have witnessed a totally stock E36 M3 on street tires beat out prepped STU STI's you start to realize how fast the car can be. Now if it is raining then it is a different story.[/QUOTE]

yahhhhh the point i was making...

-OneWay-

01-29-2006 12:33 PM

[QUOTE=ChrisW]bye bye STI [img]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/icons/nasioc/icon_kitty.gif[/img]

A "resonably prepared" STU Evo can beat a well prepped STU BMW. :devil:

<grabs flame suite>:alien:[/QUOTE]

^^And then this kids alarm went off and woke him up..........

I havn't seen EVOs winning anything at any event I have went to.

ChrisDP

01-29-2006 01:56 PM

[QUOTE=GREGS2point5]im not talking about the rules... im talking about ROAD RACING in general...
a BMW is better... And i was making a point that I can have a full out racecar for the price fo an STI new...

And to the "noobs" comments... lets look at my BMW forum post counts...

8000 on bimmerforums
and 3500 on euroteknik...

Just a noob to subaru's and was trying to give some basic information and reccommend a BMW over any subaru for road racing[/QUOTE]

Okay... Since we're discussing Tupperware, you decided to educate us about Rubbermaid. Thanks, that's great, but you're answering questions *no one* asked. I'm sure if we wanted to know about "gutted and caged supercharged old BMWs with slicks" you would be our expert consultant.

Nevermind that said car wouldn't have any competitive class to roadrace with SCCA or NASA, so I don't really know what the point of mentioning it as a roadrace suggestion was anyways... especially while talking about STU prepped BMWs which have street tires, full interior, no forced induction, and most likely don't have a rollcage.

ace996

01-29-2006 02:43 PM

jamesohoh7

01-29-2006 03:04 PM

[QUOTE=GREGS2point5]im not talking about the rules... im talking about ROAD RACING in general...
a BMW is better... And i was making a point that I can have a full out racecar for the price fo an STI new...

And to the "noobs" comments... lets look at my BMW forum post counts...

8000 on bimmerforums
and 3500 on euroteknik...

Just a noob to subaru's and was trying to give some basic information and reccommend a BMW over any subaru for road racing[/QUOTE]

Troll. Banninate!

Take your bimmerforums post-count and go buy a clue... this discussion is about STU, an autox class in SCCA. Your argument is specious at best though patently obsurd in general and smaks of typical ricer-math and logic "I'll take this old, depreciated-value car and mod the hell out of it to beat a brand new car of $X dollars, NYAH!". Surely, that can be done with any number of cars (and no one doubts the handling of the vaunted 3-series)... however, what -your- proposal has to do with STU or the price of tea in China is anyone's guess.

afpdl

01-29-2006 03:59 PM

[QUOTE=GREGS2point5]im not talking about the rules... im talking about ROAD RACING in general...[/QUOTE]
In general ROAD RACING has rules. If you are talking about HPDE's then you really just arent getting it.

rankink

01-29-2006 05:09 PM

MattNJ2.8

01-29-2006 05:11 PM

[QUOTE=-OneWay-]
I havn't seen EVOs winning anything at any event I have went to.[/QUOTE]

Reasonable.

But what a pathetically small sample size :rolleyes:

awesome2.5rs

01-29-2006 06:44 PM

[QUOTE=jamesohoh7]Troll. Banninate!

Take your bimmerforums post-count and go buy a clue... this discussion is about STU, an autox class in SCCA. [B]Your argument is specious at best though patently obsurd in general and smaks of typical ricer-math and logic "I'll take this old, depreciated-value car and mod the hell out of it to beat a brand new car of $X dollars, NYAH!". Surely, that can be done with any number of cars (and no one doubts the handling of the vaunted 3-series).[/B].. however, what -your- proposal has to do with STU or the price of tea in China is anyone's guess.[/QUOTE]

hahaha, good response

jamesohoh7

01-30-2006 09:17 AM

[QUOTE=awesome2.5rs]hahaha, good response[/QUOTE]

...except that spelling owns me and I suck a grammar, but I appreciate the appreciation... :)

I think everyone has registered the proper amount of ire. If the guy wants to debate the merits of his favorite car in the context of the STU class and thus be 'on-topic', that's great... but wow, he went way out there.

(and of course my posts aren't really on-topic per se, but sometimes you gotta vent :) )

masiocinterior

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STIs Vs BMWs in STU part 1

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