| RainMaker | 09-18-2006 07:39 PM |
SM is where I fit, doing the mods I want to... I havent thought twice about PAX... I just want to compete well within SM (though getting off of BSP and STX and on my own would be super cool, though more than I should wish for).
Vic is going to ruin it for the rest of the SM folks :)
Vic is going to ruin it for the rest of the SM folks :)
| Pacobeagle | 09-18-2006 09:21 PM |
Getting tuned tomorrow by Jarrad from PDX. Will post results of my 16G on some race gas.
Jose
Jose
| Scooby921 | 09-19-2006 12:11 PM |
What about Element Tuning's GT52 prototype? I don't know a whole lot about it, but I think its a touch smaller than a garrett GT30. A friend of mine has one on his car. I can't comment on performance though...motor build isn't finished yet.
| RainMaker | 09-19-2006 01:24 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby921;15299221]What about Element Tuning's GT52 prototype? I don't know a whole lot about it, but I think its a touch smaller than a garrett GT30. A friend of mine has one on his car. I can't comment on performance though...motor build isn't finished yet.[/QUOTE]
Never heard of it... any more details about the turbo?
Never heard of it... any more details about the turbo?
| javid | 09-19-2006 01:35 PM |
I would think in SM you would do far better with a 'simple' mitsu based turbo and a set of cams to give the car more power band and more leg room in each gear. The stock block can rev.
| Scooby921 | 09-19-2006 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE=RainMaker;15300442]Never heard of it... any more details about the turbo?[/QUOTE]
Element GT52:
52lb compressor wheel (same as a GT30)
TD06 turbine housing
internal wastegate
ball bearings
bolt-on
browsing a bit more Element also has a GT49, TD04-50, and TD05-20G. Haven't been able to find specific info yet though. I suppose you could call WorldOne or Element and inquire about them.
Element GT52:
52lb compressor wheel (same as a GT30)
TD06 turbine housing
internal wastegate
ball bearings
bolt-on
browsing a bit more Element also has a GT49, TD04-50, and TD05-20G. Haven't been able to find specific info yet though. I suppose you could call WorldOne or Element and inquire about them.
| RainMaker | 09-20-2006 12:05 PM |
[QUOTE=javid;15300607]I would think in SM you would do far better with a 'simple' mitsu based turbo and a set of cams to give the car more power band and more leg room in each gear. The stock block can rev.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, thats true. I hit the rev limiter (7200) relatively frequently on many courses. theres a tenth or two in sorting that out.
I've always loved the idea of some mild non-emmissions cams. A little more lift and a tiny bit more duration and a little more overlap (though I guess AVCS can help that.) Some of these stage 1 cams (and valvesprings) are tempting, but removing the engine isnt. The stock clutch is working, and as I transfer to a TD06-18G or VF37, the strain on the stock shortblock should actually go down from the 3" green I have in there now.
Yeah, thats true. I hit the rev limiter (7200) relatively frequently on many courses. theres a tenth or two in sorting that out.
I've always loved the idea of some mild non-emmissions cams. A little more lift and a tiny bit more duration and a little more overlap (though I guess AVCS can help that.) Some of these stage 1 cams (and valvesprings) are tempting, but removing the engine isnt. The stock clutch is working, and as I transfer to a TD06-18G or VF37, the strain on the stock shortblock should actually go down from the 3" green I have in there now.
| silver arrow | 09-20-2006 10:59 PM |
Why does everyone care about pax? What does it get you? I've won my class 4 times this year, highest I pax'd was 18th out of 100+ cars. Pax = useless ego boosting crap that doesn't mean anything.
| PhilC | 09-21-2006 08:49 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;15322249]Why does everyone care about pax? What does it get you? I've won my class 4 times this year, highest I pax'd was 18th out of 100+ cars. Pax = useless ego boosting crap that doesn't mean anything.[/QUOTE]
Because at a local level there just isn't the level of competition in every class to actually determine if you are actually improving and doing well as a driver or just winning your class. Last local event we went to I won STX by a little over a second over Jen and she was 2 seconds faster than third place. But I was in third in PAX for the event almost half a second back from someone I feel I should be able to beat in PAX. Bad event for me, even though I won my class by a wide margin.
Just about every region has at least a couple of people who race and are competitive at the National level. Those are the top drivers and the chances that they are in your class are pretty slim, in fact in a lot of clubs they race in a dedicated PAX or Pro class against each other. Out of 200 people at a local event I'd be amazed if any one region pulls in more than a dozen people who are consistently at that level. It matters not to people who are interested in the ability of competitors they've never seen whether a nobody wins his class over another group of nobodies if they are 2 seconds back from the PAX winner for the day (assuming everyone had equal weather). Five years ago I was winning DS at a local level more often than not and typically PAXing in the top 25 of our local club. I went to one Divisional event, not even a Tour and got beat handily by over 3 seconds a day. I was a nobody and I could have expected that based on how I was PAXing against the better drivers in the local club who could trophy or win at that level or higher despite the fact that I was winning my class.
Because at a local level there just isn't the level of competition in every class to actually determine if you are actually improving and doing well as a driver or just winning your class. Last local event we went to I won STX by a little over a second over Jen and she was 2 seconds faster than third place. But I was in third in PAX for the event almost half a second back from someone I feel I should be able to beat in PAX. Bad event for me, even though I won my class by a wide margin.
Just about every region has at least a couple of people who race and are competitive at the National level. Those are the top drivers and the chances that they are in your class are pretty slim, in fact in a lot of clubs they race in a dedicated PAX or Pro class against each other. Out of 200 people at a local event I'd be amazed if any one region pulls in more than a dozen people who are consistently at that level. It matters not to people who are interested in the ability of competitors they've never seen whether a nobody wins his class over another group of nobodies if they are 2 seconds back from the PAX winner for the day (assuming everyone had equal weather). Five years ago I was winning DS at a local level more often than not and typically PAXing in the top 25 of our local club. I went to one Divisional event, not even a Tour and got beat handily by over 3 seconds a day. I was a nobody and I could have expected that based on how I was PAXing against the better drivers in the local club who could trophy or win at that level or higher despite the fact that I was winning my class.
| shikataganai | 09-21-2006 10:54 AM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;15322249]Why does everyone care about pax? What does it get you? I've won my class 4 times this year, highest I pax'd was 18th out of 100+ cars. [B]Pax = useless ego boosting crap that doesn't mean anything.[/B][/QUOTE]
to echo PhilC, winning your class against no competition = "useless ego boosting crap that doesn't mean anything"
to echo PhilC, winning your class against no competition = "useless ego boosting crap that doesn't mean anything"
| RainMaker | 09-28-2006 12:56 PM |
I'm getting the feeling that unless its a TD06-18G, it may be a science project. Anyone disagree?
| zoomfactor | 09-28-2006 02:48 PM |
For SM I don't think that you can consider the turbo by itself without also cosidering the EM. I think something with modest boost and anti-lag would be the ticket in SM, but how many guys has anyone seen running anti-lag in an autocross.
Under the SM ruleset aren't we talking about engines that can potentially mimic the 500 ft-lbs of torque put out by WRC cars. I think an engine builder for open class rallying would provide useful input, since they've run these engines for a few years with ALS.
twin-scroll
cams
ALS
?
Under the SM ruleset aren't we talking about engines that can potentially mimic the 500 ft-lbs of torque put out by WRC cars. I think an engine builder for open class rallying would provide useful input, since they've run these engines for a few years with ALS.
twin-scroll
cams
ALS
?
| AUTOwrXER | 09-28-2006 03:35 PM |
[QUOTE=xcdhridr;15268796]I think you'd need more than 1 turbo to be competitive enough. I wouldn't touch SM here since Bob Tunnell is a local. He beat my by 16 seconds (total) at the Denver National (I'm in a stx wrx though).
Now if I had a 3 liter swap, then I'd be interested.[/QUOTE]
Well Bob just won the SM national championship, so he is the benchmark. On the other hand he was barely faster than the top BSP Evo with stock turbo.
Now if I had a 3 liter swap, then I'd be interested.[/QUOTE]
Well Bob just won the SM national championship, so he is the benchmark. On the other hand he was barely faster than the top BSP Evo with stock turbo.
| coolcougar | 11-27-2006 01:08 AM |
But if you are just looking at "bolt on" turbos... What would be the way to go? I've heard both the TD06-18G and TD05-20G mentioned...
I'm currently looking at options for replacing my VF39 and I don't want to stress my WRX's 5sp too much...
FWIW I have a 2.5L swap w/AVCS heads and RA gears...
Thanks in advance.
I'm currently looking at options for replacing my VF39 and I don't want to stress my WRX's 5sp too much...
FWIW I have a 2.5L swap w/AVCS heads and RA gears...
Thanks in advance.
| RainMaker | 11-27-2006 01:58 AM |
I bought a Evo3-16g from FP. I expect it to spool faster than the VF39 and yet also hold boost towards redline better as well.
Its not on the car yet.
Chris
Its not on the car yet.
Chris
| Pacobeagle | 11-27-2006 02:58 AM |
A little on the late side, I made 300whp and 330wtq using Sunoco 104 unleaded. I went to Nationals in Topeka and made a top 10 showing. Actually, I was the only Subaru in SM. Wasn't too far off the pace to come home with a trophy, so I'm happy. Next year, I'm definetly coming home with one. I had more problems with too much camber than power.
Jose
Jose
| coolcougar | 12-03-2006 11:49 PM |
Jose (Pacobeagle1),
Those are some pretty darn good numbers. Would you mind sharing a little more about your set up? Which 16g are you using and where did you get it from? Also what dyno where you tested on? How do you like this 16g compared to your old VF22?
Chris (RainMaker) - Please share your thoughts and impressions of the Evo3-16g when you get it installed I'm seriously thinking this maybe the correct turbo for me as well.
Thanks guys,
Ken
Those are some pretty darn good numbers. Would you mind sharing a little more about your set up? Which 16g are you using and where did you get it from? Also what dyno where you tested on? How do you like this 16g compared to your old VF22?
Chris (RainMaker) - Please share your thoughts and impressions of the Evo3-16g when you get it installed I'm seriously thinking this maybe the correct turbo for me as well.
Thanks guys,
Ken
| Pacobeagle | 12-04-2006 05:54 AM |
The dyno was a Mustang unit over at Japtrix in Palm Beach, FL. The 16G is a standard one that I got from Jarrad at PDX. They tell me it is a FP16G. The power is nice and linear and comes on early. This is what I wanted considering I use the car for autox only.
The motor is a 2.5block/WRX head hybrid using USDM Sti camshafts. I'll eventually rebuild it with a set of Wiseco's and a smaller head gasket to keep the same CR.
Jose
The motor is a 2.5block/WRX head hybrid using USDM Sti camshafts. I'll eventually rebuild it with a set of Wiseco's and a smaller head gasket to keep the same CR.
Jose
| adhowe70 | 12-04-2006 08:07 PM |
Chris,
I think my answer to your original question is obvious. But now that I had the chance to flog my car on Saturday (just up and down some backroads), I'll reiterate... no turbo is the best solution.
Its going to be hard to make up the turbo lag and 250+ pounds of "bonus weight". After all, we can all basically fit the same size tires in SM, eh? :)
Andy H.
I think my answer to your original question is obvious. But now that I had the chance to flog my car on Saturday (just up and down some backroads), I'll reiterate... no turbo is the best solution.
Its going to be hard to make up the turbo lag and 250+ pounds of "bonus weight". After all, we can all basically fit the same size tires in SM, eh? :)
Andy H.
| coolcougar | 12-05-2006 02:36 AM |
[QUOTE=Pacobeagle1;16195660]The dyno was a Mustang unit over at Japtrix in Palm Beach, FL. The 16G is a standard one that I got from Jarrad at PDX. They tell me it is a FP16G. The power is nice and linear and comes on early. This is what I wanted considering I use the car for autox only.
The motor is a 2.5block/WRX head hybrid using USDM Sti camshafts. I'll eventually rebuild it with a set of Wiseco's and a smaller head gasket to keep the same CR.
Jose[/QUOTE]
Thanks Jose. I mainly use my car as a DD but love to AX so the how the characteristics of the turbo are very important to me. How different was AXing the VF22 from the 16G?
Also does anyone here have any AX experiance with the Evo3-16g[B]GT [/B]?
The motor is a 2.5block/WRX head hybrid using USDM Sti camshafts. I'll eventually rebuild it with a set of Wiseco's and a smaller head gasket to keep the same CR.
Jose[/QUOTE]
Thanks Jose. I mainly use my car as a DD but love to AX so the how the characteristics of the turbo are very important to me. How different was AXing the VF22 from the 16G?
Also does anyone here have any AX experiance with the Evo3-16g[B]GT [/B]?
| Pacobeagle | 12-05-2006 06:09 AM |
What's a Evo3-16G/GT? Who's it from?
My tune is so different from one turbo to the next it's hard to compare. My VF22 I tuned to hit hard in the midrange. I'd hold the wastegate shut then open her up. So, inherently, it would lag a bit on slow turns. But that's all in a tune!!!
Jarrad from PDX tuned my current setup. Basically the tune has the broadest torque curve possible. This way I have "usable" power at all times. It does not concentrate all the power in one area or "peak power". Either way, this tune is super smooth throughout the powerband and it comes on early. I'll hit 1.5bar.
Jose
My tune is so different from one turbo to the next it's hard to compare. My VF22 I tuned to hit hard in the midrange. I'd hold the wastegate shut then open her up. So, inherently, it would lag a bit on slow turns. But that's all in a tune!!!
Jarrad from PDX tuned my current setup. Basically the tune has the broadest torque curve possible. This way I have "usable" power at all times. It does not concentrate all the power in one area or "peak power". Either way, this tune is super smooth throughout the powerband and it comes on early. I'll hit 1.5bar.
Jose
| RainMaker | 12-05-2006 01:04 PM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70;16205410]Chris,
I think my answer to your original question is obvious. But now that I had the chance to flog my car on Saturday (just up and down some backroads), I'll reiterate... no turbo is the best solution.
Its going to be hard to make up the turbo lag and 250+ pounds of "bonus weight". After all, we can all basically fit the same size tires in SM, eh? :)
Andy H.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure, Andy... I think I am going to be running 275/35/18s this year... I guess I would be pleasantly surprised if those fit on a GC. Either way, I've got these cool new coilovers and they'll let me poke if I want. I don't PLAN on running 315s, but I *could* ;)
That being said, I think the E30 you've got will be a great tool for you. Would I move to a E30? No way... I love this new Evo3-16g. With C16 and the water injection, I can put all 26psi (wg closed to redline) down through a puny little STi top mount.
Personally, I can't imagine needing any more power... now I just need to drive well and get these blingy coilovers adjusted perfectly.
Jokes aside, I really do look forward to you bringing your car out this next year. Dan and I would love another competitive car to play with. If we climb the PAX list locally while collaborating... I won't care what the points say at the end of the year. We will all be closer to taking Subarus to Nationals in SM and standing a chance at a top 5 finish.
I think my answer to your original question is obvious. But now that I had the chance to flog my car on Saturday (just up and down some backroads), I'll reiterate... no turbo is the best solution.
Its going to be hard to make up the turbo lag and 250+ pounds of "bonus weight". After all, we can all basically fit the same size tires in SM, eh? :)
Andy H.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure, Andy... I think I am going to be running 275/35/18s this year... I guess I would be pleasantly surprised if those fit on a GC. Either way, I've got these cool new coilovers and they'll let me poke if I want. I don't PLAN on running 315s, but I *could* ;)
That being said, I think the E30 you've got will be a great tool for you. Would I move to a E30? No way... I love this new Evo3-16g. With C16 and the water injection, I can put all 26psi (wg closed to redline) down through a puny little STi top mount.
Personally, I can't imagine needing any more power... now I just need to drive well and get these blingy coilovers adjusted perfectly.
Jokes aside, I really do look forward to you bringing your car out this next year. Dan and I would love another competitive car to play with. If we climb the PAX list locally while collaborating... I won't care what the points say at the end of the year. We will all be closer to taking Subarus to Nationals in SM and standing a chance at a top 5 finish.
| coolcougar | 12-05-2006 09:24 PM |
[QUOTE=Pacobeagle1;16209952]What's a Evo3-16G/GT? Who's it from?
Jose[/QUOTE]
It is from Turbochargers.com and from what I have read it is a TH05H-16G with all the porting from a port and polish cast into the housings.
Here are some excepts from the [URL="http://www.turbochargers.com/evo316g.htm"]turbochargers.com web page[/URL]:
[QUOTE]The Evo III GT comes equipped with a standard ported turbine housing upgrade. The inside is not shiny, like a normal port job, because the porting was done in the casting and not done by a machinist.
When machinists port a turbo, you never know what you're going to get. Some port jobs shave too little metal and do little to increase performance. Some port jobs shave too much metal and leave the walls of the turbine housing too thin to withstand the 1200 �+ (f) temperatures and 120,000+ RPM spinning of the shaft, and lead to failure.
The GT's designers studied many different porting designs, and ran each through sophisticated computer tests before deciding on the turbine housing design. After achieved the perfect port, we reinforced the walls of the turbine housing to MHI factory spec to give the turbo more resilience to heat than a regular ported EVO III turbo.
With the Evo III GT, customers get a perfect porting every time, with no risk of a weakened turbine housing.
We increased the size of the wastegate and flapper to help avoid the ominous "boost creep." This feature on the GT is identical to the aftermarket upgrade available from any turbo shop. The only difference: This upgrade is done at our factory at no additional cost.
[/QUOTE]
Plus it is only $599 :eek: :banana:
It sounds :disco: to me! I'd love to try this turbo out.. but it will probably be 08' before I'm ready to buy a turbo.
Jose[/QUOTE]
It is from Turbochargers.com and from what I have read it is a TH05H-16G with all the porting from a port and polish cast into the housings.
Here are some excepts from the [URL="http://www.turbochargers.com/evo316g.htm"]turbochargers.com web page[/URL]:
[QUOTE]The Evo III GT comes equipped with a standard ported turbine housing upgrade. The inside is not shiny, like a normal port job, because the porting was done in the casting and not done by a machinist.
When machinists port a turbo, you never know what you're going to get. Some port jobs shave too little metal and do little to increase performance. Some port jobs shave too much metal and leave the walls of the turbine housing too thin to withstand the 1200 �+ (f) temperatures and 120,000+ RPM spinning of the shaft, and lead to failure.
The GT's designers studied many different porting designs, and ran each through sophisticated computer tests before deciding on the turbine housing design. After achieved the perfect port, we reinforced the walls of the turbine housing to MHI factory spec to give the turbo more resilience to heat than a regular ported EVO III turbo.
With the Evo III GT, customers get a perfect porting every time, with no risk of a weakened turbine housing.
We increased the size of the wastegate and flapper to help avoid the ominous "boost creep." This feature on the GT is identical to the aftermarket upgrade available from any turbo shop. The only difference: This upgrade is done at our factory at no additional cost.
[/QUOTE]
Plus it is only $599 :eek: :banana:
It sounds :disco: to me! I'd love to try this turbo out.. but it will probably be 08' before I'm ready to buy a turbo.
| adhowe70 | 12-05-2006 09:51 PM |
With autocross, I don't think additional power is a problem. I think we should be much more concerned with throttle response, weight and balance. As for tires, I've seen a 2.5RS running 275/17 R compounds. Its not comfortable, but its feasible. I'd guess that 295's are also feasible, though I think 315's are probably out of the question.
Of a larger concern is the heavy weight of the STi's. Legally, an STi could run at 2873 pounds. Can an STi even get there? My car will sit right on its legal minimum at 2625 pounds and the M3's are likely even lighter than that. WRX's (2.0L turbo) could run at 2735, but again... can a WRX get there? A swapped GC chassis can get to both of these weights (thought I *will* protest these if you've swapped to the turbo subframe, there's a legal work around and y'all know it - fair warning.)
I'll drop you an email and we can discuss where you should be going with your car. Bling coilovers are a baby step towards being competitive. :)
Andy
Of a larger concern is the heavy weight of the STi's. Legally, an STi could run at 2873 pounds. Can an STi even get there? My car will sit right on its legal minimum at 2625 pounds and the M3's are likely even lighter than that. WRX's (2.0L turbo) could run at 2735, but again... can a WRX get there? A swapped GC chassis can get to both of these weights (thought I *will* protest these if you've swapped to the turbo subframe, there's a legal work around and y'all know it - fair warning.)
I'll drop you an email and we can discuss where you should be going with your car. Bling coilovers are a baby step towards being competitive. :)
Andy
| El Capitan | 12-05-2006 10:30 PM |
Does anyone know what the Borg Warner variable geometry turbo that comes on the new 911 is? Can you buy it aftermarket?
| Kostamojen | 12-06-2006 01:48 AM |
You could probably buy it from dealer...
Make sure to bring a hack saw for one of your limbs as down payment.
Make sure to bring a hack saw for one of your limbs as down payment.
| AUTOwrXER | 12-06-2006 03:54 PM |
[QUOTE=RainMaker;16213478]I think I am going to be running 275/35/18s this year... [/QUOTE]
Why would you run those over the 285/30/18? The 285s are significantly faster. I had to run on the 275/35/18 size when I was first building Stompy because of Hoosier recalls. I think there is at least half a second advantage to the 285s.
And please don't say gearing, because you'll have to shift with either tire.
Why would you run those over the 285/30/18? The 285s are significantly faster. I had to run on the 275/35/18 size when I was first building Stompy because of Hoosier recalls. I think there is at least half a second advantage to the 285s.
And please don't say gearing, because you'll have to shift with either tire.
| eastcoastbumps | 12-06-2006 08:50 PM |
I'm surprised no one said Holset HX35 or HX40 with anti-lag. They're from the Dodge/Cummins turbo diesels and are very durable and dirt cheap if bought used.
| RainMaker | 12-07-2006 11:09 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER;16230614]Why would you run those over the 285/30/18? The 285s are significantly faster. I had to run on the 275/35/18 size when I was first building Stompy because of Hoosier recalls. I think there is at least half a second advantage to the 285s.
And please don't say gearing, because you'll have to shift with either tire.[/QUOTE]
Because I think I can run the 275s within my fenders and on my 18x8.5s (Gram Lite 57f's). I dont know that I can run the 285s in there. Is there *really* a half second in 1 cm and a shorter sidewall???
And please don't say gearing, because you'll have to shift with either tire.[/QUOTE]
Because I think I can run the 275s within my fenders and on my 18x8.5s (Gram Lite 57f's). I dont know that I can run the 285s in there. Is there *really* a half second in 1 cm and a shorter sidewall???
| RainMaker | 12-08-2006 04:36 PM |
by the way... the 16g lasted all of 40 minutes before popping.
I think the bearing failed... it's on its way back to FP for a repair.
I think the bearing failed... it's on its way back to FP for a repair.
| speedyHAM | 12-08-2006 04:44 PM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70;16220590][B](thought I *will* protest these if you've swapped to the turbo subframe, there's a legal work around and y'all know it - fair warning.)[/B][/QUOTE]
Do you really think there is any advantage that can be gained by switching to a turbo subframe? I know what the rules say and that you would probably (99%) win that protest, but would there be any advantage?
Do you really think there is any advantage that can be gained by switching to a turbo subframe? I know what the rules say and that you would probably (99%) win that protest, but would there be any advantage?
| adhowe70 | 12-08-2006 09:07 PM |
[QUOTE=speedyHAM;16259300]Do you really think there is any advantage that can be gained by switching to a turbo subframe? I know what the rules say and that you would probably (99%) win that protest, but would there be any advantage?[/QUOTE]
I think there is an advantage, both in performance and in cost / hassle. Someone with a "beat to fit" subframe is slightly more legal, though still in a gray area. Someone with a 100% legal swap (custom uppipe to avoid the subframe conflict) is likely giving up some power to make the swap legal and certainly spent more money solving the problem.
If "A" costs $100 but is illegal and "B" costs $150 but is legal, "A" should be disallowed whether or not it offers a performance advantage over "B". An advatage was gained by diverting resources elsewhere - that $50 might buy something else that the person with the legal car couldn't afford. The same argument can be made about prep time.
The rules say what they say and we all *know* there are legal solutions to the problem. Why shouldn't I protest someone that has shortcut the system, saving themselves time and money and potentially gaining a performance advantage? I figure all 98% of the Subie drivers in SM are reading this thread so it was a good way to put everyone on notice: It is illegal and I'll call you on it.
Heck, I'll even protest the beat to fit subframe just to get a clarification about the issue. I'm curious about that one.
I think there is an advantage, both in performance and in cost / hassle. Someone with a "beat to fit" subframe is slightly more legal, though still in a gray area. Someone with a 100% legal swap (custom uppipe to avoid the subframe conflict) is likely giving up some power to make the swap legal and certainly spent more money solving the problem.
If "A" costs $100 but is illegal and "B" costs $150 but is legal, "A" should be disallowed whether or not it offers a performance advantage over "B". An advatage was gained by diverting resources elsewhere - that $50 might buy something else that the person with the legal car couldn't afford. The same argument can be made about prep time.
The rules say what they say and we all *know* there are legal solutions to the problem. Why shouldn't I protest someone that has shortcut the system, saving themselves time and money and potentially gaining a performance advantage? I figure all 98% of the Subie drivers in SM are reading this thread so it was a good way to put everyone on notice: It is illegal and I'll call you on it.
Heck, I'll even protest the beat to fit subframe just to get a clarification about the issue. I'm curious about that one.
| speedyHAM | 12-08-2006 09:50 PM |
The beat to fit subframe is legal. Read the rules.
16.1 O-
Any minor modification, intended to allow or facilitate any allowed modification, is permitted as long as it does not provide and intrinsic performance benefit in and of itself, does not provide a weight reduction of more than 1 lb, and is not explicitly prohibited elsewhere within these rules. This rule is intended to allow minor notching, bending, clearancing, grinding; the drilling of holes; affixing, relocating, or strengthening of brackets; removal of small parts, and similar operations performed in order to facilitate the installation of allowed parts or modifications. This does not permit extensive modification to a subframe or cross member to lower an engine which would otherwise not fit in the engine compartment. Competitors are strongly cautioned to make the minimum amount of modification required to affix a give part, and to not make unduly tortured interpretations of this rule. Modifications to the firewall in order to allow for increased engine setbac, and any modification that changes the location of a suspensio pickup point, are explicityly forbidden.
By your previous post I am taking it that you think all competitors should be forced to spend as much as possible to accomplish the same ends? Your point is rediculous. I should have clarified my question to you as "Is there a performance advantage (as in .001 second gained on track)?" The amount something costs should have no bearing on how the rules are applied as there will always be someone (paging Mr. Sias) who has enough money to do everything that will gain them a thousanth of a second. If something is illegal (turbo crossmember) then protesting it is fine by me. Protesting something because you hope it may be illegal is crap. I hope we run into each other at an event somewhere and you lose $50 protesting my subframe. That $50 could have been spent on something to make your car faster.
To the OP- sorry for the thread hijack.
16.1 O-
Any minor modification, intended to allow or facilitate any allowed modification, is permitted as long as it does not provide and intrinsic performance benefit in and of itself, does not provide a weight reduction of more than 1 lb, and is not explicitly prohibited elsewhere within these rules. This rule is intended to allow minor notching, bending, clearancing, grinding; the drilling of holes; affixing, relocating, or strengthening of brackets; removal of small parts, and similar operations performed in order to facilitate the installation of allowed parts or modifications. This does not permit extensive modification to a subframe or cross member to lower an engine which would otherwise not fit in the engine compartment. Competitors are strongly cautioned to make the minimum amount of modification required to affix a give part, and to not make unduly tortured interpretations of this rule. Modifications to the firewall in order to allow for increased engine setbac, and any modification that changes the location of a suspensio pickup point, are explicityly forbidden.
By your previous post I am taking it that you think all competitors should be forced to spend as much as possible to accomplish the same ends? Your point is rediculous. I should have clarified my question to you as "Is there a performance advantage (as in .001 second gained on track)?" The amount something costs should have no bearing on how the rules are applied as there will always be someone (paging Mr. Sias) who has enough money to do everything that will gain them a thousanth of a second. If something is illegal (turbo crossmember) then protesting it is fine by me. Protesting something because you hope it may be illegal is crap. I hope we run into each other at an event somewhere and you lose $50 protesting my subframe. That $50 could have been spent on something to make your car faster.
To the OP- sorry for the thread hijack.
| adhowe70 | 12-08-2006 10:31 PM |
My point about the beat to fit subframe is that it is a gray area that needs to be clarified. I really could care less whether that is legal or not - everyone just needs to know where they stand. Interpretations of that phrasing vary widely depending on who you talk to, so the NAC need to clarify what is meant here. A protest committee's decision is not final, so an appeal would need to be filed.
The process is simple: I protest (at a National). Decision is rendered. Decision is appealed. Binding decision is reached by the National Appeals Committee and the rule book is clarified.
Unless this process is followed, no one with a beat to fit subframe is really *sure* that their car is legal. Does a protest committee have the same definition of "minor" that you do? Are you sure?
Edit: I don't drive a turbo car, so this issue doesn't affect the amount of money that *I* may have spent on my car.
The process is simple: I protest (at a National). Decision is rendered. Decision is appealed. Binding decision is reached by the National Appeals Committee and the rule book is clarified.
Unless this process is followed, no one with a beat to fit subframe is really *sure* that their car is legal. Does a protest committee have the same definition of "minor" that you do? Are you sure?
Edit: I don't drive a turbo car, so this issue doesn't affect the amount of money that *I* may have spent on my car.
| j-rho | 12-09-2006 04:08 AM |
I'd look out for "This does not permit extensive modifications to a
subframe or cross-member to lower an engine which would
otherwise not fit in the engine compartment."
Difficult to quantify changes made by a hammer. Seems like an unnecessary risk to modify one of the few sacred parts in SM, for the benefit of parts that are completely free to modification.
Lots of people get bent out of shape over the rules for no reason, forgetting they don't really matter until you find yourself leading a class one day in Topeka. Easier said than done when we're talking about Street Mod...
subframe or cross-member to lower an engine which would
otherwise not fit in the engine compartment."
Difficult to quantify changes made by a hammer. Seems like an unnecessary risk to modify one of the few sacred parts in SM, for the benefit of parts that are completely free to modification.
Lots of people get bent out of shape over the rules for no reason, forgetting they don't really matter until you find yourself leading a class one day in Topeka. Easier said than done when we're talking about Street Mod...
| speedyHAM | 12-09-2006 07:17 AM |
[QUOTE=j-rho;16264729]I'd look out for "This does not permit extensive modifications to a
subframe or cross-member to lower an engine which would
otherwise not fit in the engine compartment."
[/QUOTE]
You are not notching the subframe to allow the engine to be placed so that doesn't apply. You are notching the subframe to allow the exhaust to fit. The exhaust is free in SM.
subframe or cross-member to lower an engine which would
otherwise not fit in the engine compartment."
[/QUOTE]
You are not notching the subframe to allow the engine to be placed so that doesn't apply. You are notching the subframe to allow the exhaust to fit. The exhaust is free in SM.
| jamesohoh7 | 12-09-2006 11:59 AM |
[QUOTE=coolcougar;16220325]It is from Turbochargers.com and from what I have read it is a TH05H-16G with all the porting from a port and polish cast into the housings.
Here are some excepts from the [URL="http://www.turbochargers.com/evo316g.htm"]turbochargers.com web page[/URL]:
Plus it is only $599 :eek: :banana:
It sounds :disco: to me! I'd love to try this turbo out.. but it will probably be 08' before I'm ready to buy a turbo.[/QUOTE]
When are you going to be stateside again, Ken? ... did you ever upgrade your center diff?... or the front? You left town before I got a chance to talk to you about such things. The last time I saw you autox, you were buring up inside tires (and probably outside tires too!) coming off corners... which looked cool, but certainly couldn't have been the quick way to go :D
The landscape here has changed a lot recently:
Martin got an STi and is moving to AS
Alex is going to co-drive Martin's car in AS next year, at least some of the time.
Lenny got an STi, I'm assuming he's going to AS.
Will is moving to STU in his car b/c there's very few folks in STX anymore.
JB put a supercharger on his car (you may have seen this, I forget).
Here are some excepts from the [URL="http://www.turbochargers.com/evo316g.htm"]turbochargers.com web page[/URL]:
Plus it is only $599 :eek: :banana:
It sounds :disco: to me! I'd love to try this turbo out.. but it will probably be 08' before I'm ready to buy a turbo.[/QUOTE]
When are you going to be stateside again, Ken? ... did you ever upgrade your center diff?... or the front? You left town before I got a chance to talk to you about such things. The last time I saw you autox, you were buring up inside tires (and probably outside tires too!) coming off corners... which looked cool, but certainly couldn't have been the quick way to go :D
The landscape here has changed a lot recently:
Martin got an STi and is moving to AS
Alex is going to co-drive Martin's car in AS next year, at least some of the time.
Lenny got an STi, I'm assuming he's going to AS.
Will is moving to STU in his car b/c there's very few folks in STX anymore.
JB put a supercharger on his car (you may have seen this, I forget).
| shikataganai | 12-09-2006 12:28 PM |
[QUOTE=speedyHAM;16265020]You are not notching the subframe to allow the engine to be placed so that doesn't apply. You are notching the subframe to allow the exhaust to fit. The exhaust is free in SM.[/QUOTE]
sure, the exhaust is free, but that doesn't necessarily mean that subframe mods to allow said free exhaust to fit are also allowed.
sure, the exhaust is free, but that doesn't necessarily mean that subframe mods to allow said free exhaust to fit are also allowed.
| dwx | 12-11-2006 09:22 PM |
I ran a PE1818 turbo on my SM WRX a couple years ago with good luck. I was using 245 tires on that car with a 6MT so weight was a bit of an issue but the car was fairly competitive, especially at Pros. I had Trey Cobb tune the car and it had virtually no lag, and most of the time I ran the car at 12-14 psi. I had a 8.8:1 2.5L block and it was pretty much instant torque. The car ran a [email�protected] at 16psi.
I have a GC8 I built the year before last but had some overheating problems with. With the 6MT it weighs 2575 lbs. 1998 Impreza L built from pretty much a bare shell from the ground up. Still need to redo the brake system since it still has the ABS in it which isn't functional. I have both a PE1818 turbo and a 20G turbo with an ext wastegate that I will try out to see which one works best.
Of course I moved and left the car at the old location so I'm not sure when it'll finally be done...
I have a GC8 I built the year before last but had some overheating problems with. With the 6MT it weighs 2575 lbs. 1998 Impreza L built from pretty much a bare shell from the ground up. Still need to redo the brake system since it still has the ABS in it which isn't functional. I have both a PE1818 turbo and a 20G turbo with an ext wastegate that I will try out to see which one works best.
Of course I moved and left the car at the old location so I'm not sure when it'll finally be done...
| _blank | 12-12-2006 05:23 AM |
VF37 via JDM ver8 setup.
Last season the engine was too much for first the WRX tranny, and then the rear diff when I got the 6MT put in. On 235 710s the inside rear lights up on corner exit. Cusco rear diff goes in before the start of the next season.
Other goodies should make this a competetive wagon. Only looking for local trophy this season...
Last season the engine was too much for first the WRX tranny, and then the rear diff when I got the 6MT put in. On 235 710s the inside rear lights up on corner exit. Cusco rear diff goes in before the start of the next season.
Other goodies should make this a competetive wagon. Only looking for local trophy this season...
| coolcougar | 12-12-2006 06:16 AM |
[QUOTE=jamesohoh7;16266144]When are you going to be stateside again, Ken? ... did you ever upgrade your center diff?... or the front? You left town before I got a chance to talk to you about such things. The last time I saw you autox, you were buring up inside tires (and probably outside tires too!) coming off corners... which looked cool, but certainly couldn't have been the quick way to go :D
The landscape here has changed a lot recently:
Martin got an STi and is moving to AS
Alex is going to co-drive Martin's car in AS next year, at least some of the time.
Lenny got an STi, I'm assuming he's going to AS.
Will is moving to STU in his car b/c there's very few folks in STX anymore.
JB put a supercharger on his car (you may have seen this, I forget).[/QUOTE]
Hey James!
Thanks for the TXIC AX update! I don't plan on being back to Houston until late 07' early 08'. Unless work brings me back sooner (always a possibility). I have to be back stateside in April for my sister's wedding but that's in Montana and I doubt I'll make it down to TX.
Yes, I did upgrade my Diffs... I had a Cusco 1.5 way front (would have preferred 1 way but it can with the tranny so I can't complain too much) I also got the Cusco tarmac center diff. That front/center combo proved to be way too much for the stock rear LSD to handle... That was why I was smoking the crap out of my inside rear tire... So I upgraded the rear diff to a 1.5 way Cusco unit... and by the time I got that installed it was time to leave :( I finally get the car set up and I didn't get to AX it before I left... Ask Will about the ride I took him and Erin on.. :D Can you say throttle induced over-steer! :devil: :disco:
Take care!
The landscape here has changed a lot recently:
Martin got an STi and is moving to AS
Alex is going to co-drive Martin's car in AS next year, at least some of the time.
Lenny got an STi, I'm assuming he's going to AS.
Will is moving to STU in his car b/c there's very few folks in STX anymore.
JB put a supercharger on his car (you may have seen this, I forget).[/QUOTE]
Hey James!
Thanks for the TXIC AX update! I don't plan on being back to Houston until late 07' early 08'. Unless work brings me back sooner (always a possibility). I have to be back stateside in April for my sister's wedding but that's in Montana and I doubt I'll make it down to TX.
Yes, I did upgrade my Diffs... I had a Cusco 1.5 way front (would have preferred 1 way but it can with the tranny so I can't complain too much) I also got the Cusco tarmac center diff. That front/center combo proved to be way too much for the stock rear LSD to handle... That was why I was smoking the crap out of my inside rear tire... So I upgraded the rear diff to a 1.5 way Cusco unit... and by the time I got that installed it was time to leave :( I finally get the car set up and I didn't get to AX it before I left... Ask Will about the ride I took him and Erin on.. :D Can you say throttle induced over-steer! :devil: :disco:
Take care!
| AUTOwrXER | 12-12-2006 04:30 PM |
[QUOTE=RainMaker;16250098]Because I think I can run the 275s within my fenders and on my 18x8.5s (Gram Lite 57f's). I dont know that I can run the 285s in there. Is there *really* a half second in 1 cm and a shorter sidewall???[/QUOTE]
The short answer is yes. It sounds like you are making a compromise to stay within your fenders, which means that you are willing to give up quite a bit of contact patch width and ride height. If the fenders have to stay then the 275s are probably your best option. If you want to go faster then break out the sawzall.
The short answer is yes. It sounds like you are making a compromise to stay within your fenders, which means that you are willing to give up quite a bit of contact patch width and ride height. If the fenders have to stay then the 275s are probably your best option. If you want to go faster then break out the sawzall.
| RainMaker | 12-12-2006 05:09 PM |
OK... perhaps that is this year's compromise (though there are many others).
Once I get the suspension worked out such that I can lower the car seriously and not goof up the roll center.... I will consider either a widebody kit or do some much more serious fender mods. This year Im going to stick to the fender roller and learning these new Ohlins Flag coilovers. For now, the 275/35/18 will have to do. Its a good first step for me after last years used 245/45/17 710s. Once I figure out this year how the 275s fit and where there is room (as well as how much more spring I want to run), I'll look the next year (08) to doing something more serious and using these 18x8.5s as daily driver wheels.
Baby steps (and I should learn how to drive too...)
Once I get the suspension worked out such that I can lower the car seriously and not goof up the roll center.... I will consider either a widebody kit or do some much more serious fender mods. This year Im going to stick to the fender roller and learning these new Ohlins Flag coilovers. For now, the 275/35/18 will have to do. Its a good first step for me after last years used 245/45/17 710s. Once I figure out this year how the 275s fit and where there is room (as well as how much more spring I want to run), I'll look the next year (08) to doing something more serious and using these 18x8.5s as daily driver wheels.
Baby steps (and I should learn how to drive too...)
| AUTOwrXER | 12-13-2006 12:28 PM |
You could also later use the 18x8.5s to mount Hoosier wet radial 275/35/18. They are hard to find in that size, but you can get them. That's the tire I use for rain events.
When you go for the fender mods look at 18x10 for 285/30/18s or 17x11 for 315/35/17s.
When you go for the fender mods look at 18x10 for 285/30/18s or 17x11 for 315/35/17s.
| RainMaker | 12-13-2006 01:39 PM |
What *are* everyone's favorite "fender mods"? I've seen everything in between the APR widebody kit, a crappy fiberglass "widebody kit" that didnt help anything, and someone flaring the fenders '77 Corvette style.
| AUTOwrXER | 12-13-2006 03:21 PM |
I had a body shop do a budget hack job. Hey, it's a race car...
I was quoted about $6k for a custom widebody job, and I still had questions about it's legality given that you can modify existing fenders but not replace them. Edit: I'm referring to the SP ruleset.
I was quoted about $6k for a custom widebody job, and I still had questions about it's legality given that you can modify existing fenders but not replace them. Edit: I'm referring to the SP ruleset.
| omaha03wrx | 12-13-2006 06:10 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER;16313327]I had a body shop do a budget hack job. Hey, it's a race car....[/QUOTE]
If you don't mind me asking what's a ball park figure on how much they charged for something like that?
If you don't mind me asking what's a ball park figure on how much they charged for something like that?
| Kostamojen | 12-13-2006 10:18 PM |
Free with the purchase of a grinder and cutting blades!
| AUTOwrXER | 12-14-2006 06:58 PM |
[QUOTE=omaha03wrx;16316012]If you don't mind me asking what's a ball park figure on how much they charged for something like that?[/QUOTE]
I had the first mods done for about $400, and then later when I decided to go to 315s I had another company mod the fronts for about $200.
I had the first mods done for about $400, and then later when I decided to go to 315s I had another company mod the fronts for about $200.
| drain bramage | 12-14-2006 10:58 PM |
^^^^pics?
| AUTOwrXER | 12-14-2006 11:46 PM |
[QUOTE=drain bramage;16332629]^^^^pics?[/QUOTE]
I don't really have any close-ups of the fenders, but there are a bunch of the car here: [url]http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=23[/url]
I don't really have any close-ups of the fenders, but there are a bunch of the car here: [url]http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=23[/url]
| drain bramage | 12-15-2006 02:07 PM |
looks great.. for the track.
| Pacobeagle | 12-15-2006 07:12 PM |
[IMG]http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=23&photoid=123[/IMG]
What are you running for tire pressure or were you going that fast and loading the car that hard?
Looks great.
Jose
What are you running for tire pressure or were you going that fast and loading the car that hard?
Looks great.
Jose
| AUTOwrXER | 12-17-2006 12:07 PM |
[QUOTE=Pacobeagle1;16342372][IMG]http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=23&photoid=123[/IMG]
What are you running for tire pressure or were you going that fast and loading the car that hard?
Looks great.
Jose[/QUOTE]
We were running common V710 pressures. Those wheels are 10.5" wide for the 285s, which stretches them somewhat. Even without being loaded the wheel lip sticks out slightly, and the short sidewall of the 285s makes it look like they are coming off.
What are you running for tire pressure or were you going that fast and loading the car that hard?
Looks great.
Jose[/QUOTE]
We were running common V710 pressures. Those wheels are 10.5" wide for the 285s, which stretches them somewhat. Even without being loaded the wheel lip sticks out slightly, and the short sidewall of the 285s makes it look like they are coming off.
| Uber Wagon | 06-01-2008 12:06 PM |
I wanted to bump this thread back up top for updates!
| DScamp | 06-02-2008 06:59 AM |
[QUOTE=Uber Wagon;15208565]I am not aware of any nationally competitive SM STis, but what about something like a VF37 twinscroll set-up (maybe turned into a PE1825)?[/QUOTE]
Im running this setup, and I love it. Full boost at 3500rpm (22psi)...very linear power delivery and great for autoX, it seems like an NA. Hopefully my co-driver and I will do good in next year nationals :)
Im running this setup, and I love it. Full boost at 3500rpm (22psi)...very linear power delivery and great for autoX, it seems like an NA. Hopefully my co-driver and I will do good in next year nationals :)
| sil0nt | 06-02-2008 11:47 AM |
Somewhat on-topic... here is my thread on IWSTI of a Stage 2 vs TD05-20g comparison. Same car, tuner, and dyno.
[URL="http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-power-performance/113239-td05-20g-vs-stage-2-comparison-dyno.html"]http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-power-performance/113239-td05-20g-vs-stage-2-comparison-dyno.html[/URL]
[URL="http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-power-performance/113239-td05-20g-vs-stage-2-comparison-dyno.html"]http://www.iwsti.com/forums/engine-power-performance/113239-td05-20g-vs-stage-2-comparison-dyno.html[/URL]
| Frank A | 06-02-2008 12:11 PM |
[QUOTE=abaxter34;15226481]id go the other route and run a bigger turbo with good top end and just run anti-lag...if you can find one that would tolerate it.[/QUOTE]
Garrett TR30R from the WRC cars. Between a GT28RS and a GT3071 and built to endure anti-lag. ...and Garrett started selling them to the public this year (~$6k? :eek:).
Frank
Garrett TR30R from the WRC cars. Between a GT28RS and a GT3071 and built to endure anti-lag. ...and Garrett started selling them to the public this year (~$6k? :eek:).
Frank
| WebMasterP | 06-02-2008 10:02 PM |
a twin scroll Full-Race 3076 or 3071 might fit the bill. That's probably what I'll go for when I win the lotto.
| FASTRPH | 06-02-2008 10:06 PM |
I used to run a SZ49 (equiv. to the FP Green) for SM and thought it was just a touch laggy. Would have loved to try a 20G...I think that would make an amazing choice.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét