| njpreppy | 03-21-2004 11:29 PM |
autopower vs cusco
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Right now I have a 6pt cusco bolt in cage on order for my wrx. I intend to do a bunch of track days over the next few years. I've search the threads on here and I can't find whether or not this cusco 6pt is scca legal or even if it will pass tech inspection at a track event.
The Autopower cage that I recently found tonight (wish I'd of seen it earlier) looks better - less bends and cheaper price. (No, I do not need my rear seats, they've been in my bedroom for awhile now.)
I would like people to comment on this whom have had direct experience with these cages. I would not like to hear anyone's 'stories' they heard from someone else. I need definitive answers here because a massive semi-permanent chunk of metal will become a part of my life :), possibly saving it in the future.
To reiterate, please make this an Autopower vs Cusco 6pt cage battle.
Thanks,
Chris
The Autopower cage that I recently found tonight (wish I'd of seen it earlier) looks better - less bends and cheaper price. (No, I do not need my rear seats, they've been in my bedroom for awhile now.)
I would like people to comment on this whom have had direct experience with these cages. I would not like to hear anyone's 'stories' they heard from someone else. I need definitive answers here because a massive semi-permanent chunk of metal will become a part of my life :), possibly saving it in the future.
To reiterate, please make this an Autopower vs Cusco 6pt cage battle.
Thanks,
Chris
| gpatmac | 03-22-2004 12:01 AM |
Could you post a link to the Autopower cage? The only ones I've ever found are OEM and the ones in the back pages of GRM.
| njpreppy | 03-22-2004 12:10 AM |
Surely: [url]http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=83805&Category_Code=AP805[/url] - that's the autopower one in question
Cusco 6pt I have on back order: [url]http://www.heeltoeauto.com/marketplace/newparts/cusco/rollcage.html[/url] - type E
Just to note: I would get the optional side bars. I'm running the shoulder harness belts off the stock upper rear seat belt locations (middle two from the middle top bolt). I installed the anti submarine last week - was fun to drill my car
-Chris
Cusco 6pt I have on back order: [url]http://www.heeltoeauto.com/marketplace/newparts/cusco/rollcage.html[/url] - type E
Just to note: I would get the optional side bars. I'm running the shoulder harness belts off the stock upper rear seat belt locations (middle two from the middle top bolt). I installed the anti submarine last week - was fun to drill my car
-Chris
| gpatmac | 03-22-2004 12:35 AM |
Thank you very much.
I don't mind drilling, only re-drilling.;) I think I'll have someone install it for me.
Have you given anythought to seeing if you couldn't somehow weld this to the frame? How much hell will you have to pay for trying to the balance of the car? Shouldn't be that bad at only 50lbs. That would effectively make my wagon weigh 3500lbs.
I don't mind drilling, only re-drilling.;) I think I'll have someone install it for me.
Have you given anythought to seeing if you couldn't somehow weld this to the frame? How much hell will you have to pay for trying to the balance of the car? Shouldn't be that bad at only 50lbs. That would effectively make my wagon weigh 3500lbs.
| RaceComp Engineering | 03-22-2004 12:48 AM |
Cages,....
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First I give you credit for realizing that this "track stuff" is serious business and that you need to be prepared for the worst.
Having said that, I am an instructor at a track on the east coast. I have also raced quite a few different types of cars, and have seen alot of roll overs. The Cusco (which I sell ) isnt a cage that I tell my customers to get for serious track day events. Its only something to get if you want mild protection, and need the use of the rear seats. In other words, its better than not having a cage. It is NOT SCCA legal. Do I think it would help if you rolled, yes, do what degree?..dont know. It would help prevent the roof from collapsing, depending on the impact, the speed, etc. Do I think you could modify your Cusco cage to be legal,.YES. But let am experienced fabricator who does cages do the work.
I have no response about the Autopower cages. I saw a VW Golf roll once that had a bolt in cage, that the floor post poked through the floor boards, and the driver was seriously hurt.
So my response would be try and find a Safety Devices cage, or see if Matter cages makes a cage for your car. What ever cage you go with, make sure it has crossbars and driver side protection. Your best bet would be to have someone make a cage that has some optional side bars and substantial bracing in all the critical areas.Just dont skimp on price, its what saves your life.
The people that built my Porsche cage are RACETECHFAB.COM
503-254-6706...call them for details.
Hope that helps...
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
Having said that, I am an instructor at a track on the east coast. I have also raced quite a few different types of cars, and have seen alot of roll overs. The Cusco (which I sell ) isnt a cage that I tell my customers to get for serious track day events. Its only something to get if you want mild protection, and need the use of the rear seats. In other words, its better than not having a cage. It is NOT SCCA legal. Do I think it would help if you rolled, yes, do what degree?..dont know. It would help prevent the roof from collapsing, depending on the impact, the speed, etc. Do I think you could modify your Cusco cage to be legal,.YES. But let am experienced fabricator who does cages do the work.
I have no response about the Autopower cages. I saw a VW Golf roll once that had a bolt in cage, that the floor post poked through the floor boards, and the driver was seriously hurt.
So my response would be try and find a Safety Devices cage, or see if Matter cages makes a cage for your car. What ever cage you go with, make sure it has crossbars and driver side protection. Your best bet would be to have someone make a cage that has some optional side bars and substantial bracing in all the critical areas.Just dont skimp on price, its what saves your life.
The people that built my Porsche cage are RACETECHFAB.COM
503-254-6706...call them for details.
Hope that helps...
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
| gpatmac | 03-22-2004 12:50 AM |
Holy smokes! Thanks a bunch.
| njpreppy | 03-22-2004 01:03 AM |
The 6pt bolt-in from Safety Devices looks just like the Autopower one. As far as safety is concerned: I don't have the money to do a welded in cage. I can do this for about $750 installed by myself. Rallispec in NJ quoted me $3500. I'm a college kid that wants more protection!
Another talk is about the HANS device which would actually cost me more than my cage. Gotta get my dad to pay for that one.
Getting back, Myles, how can I reinforce a bolt-in cage to help prevent it from poking through? I'd imagine the addition of big metal plates in the cabin and under carriage of the car to act as bigger contact points would help...
Also, Rallispec said you could not weld-in a bolt-in cage and I am not sure why this is. If anyone knows do tell.
-Chris
Another talk is about the HANS device which would actually cost me more than my cage. Gotta get my dad to pay for that one.
Getting back, Myles, how can I reinforce a bolt-in cage to help prevent it from poking through? I'd imagine the addition of big metal plates in the cabin and under carriage of the car to act as bigger contact points would help...
Also, Rallispec said you could not weld-in a bolt-in cage and I am not sure why this is. If anyone knows do tell.
-Chris
| IXLR8 | 03-22-2004 06:56 AM |
Re: autopower vs cusco
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by njpreppy [/i]
[B] I can't find whether or not this cusco 6pt is scca legal or even if it will pass tech inspection at a track event.[/B][/QUOTE]
One thing to note about "legal" cages... It depends on what you want them to be "legal" for. In the past year and a half, many/most road race sanctioning groups (SCCA, NASA, etc.) have changes their rules to require all new cages to be constructed of DOM tubing, instead of the more common and less expensive ERW. Autopower cages are available in either type, don't know about the Cuzco
[B] I can't find whether or not this cusco 6pt is scca legal or even if it will pass tech inspection at a track event.[/B][/QUOTE]
One thing to note about "legal" cages... It depends on what you want them to be "legal" for. In the past year and a half, many/most road race sanctioning groups (SCCA, NASA, etc.) have changes their rules to require all new cages to be constructed of DOM tubing, instead of the more common and less expensive ERW. Autopower cages are available in either type, don't know about the Cuzco
| ellisnc | 03-22-2004 06:59 AM |
Myles, I thought you were the one busting my ass in that harness thread a while back for not wanting to install my harnesses on the bolt-in roll bar for fear of it poking through the floor? Maybe that was someone else that didn't believe the bar could go through the floor?
Chris, the only way to ensure the bar/cage doesn't poke through the floor is to weld it to the side rails of the car with heavy plate steel. Even then, nothing's guaranteed not to come apart. The bolt in cages look to me like they are usually too far inboard to weld them properly so for a weld in cage you're probably better off getting something custom done, maybe that's the reason they were thinking of.
Also, if you're going to be driving the car on the street AT ALL, do not put any tubes forward of the B-pillar. If you knock your head on one in an accident without a helmet even wtih padding, the results wouldn't be pretty.
Another thing to consider for legality is if the tubing thickness of the cage/bar meets the regulations for the weight of your car. If it doesn't, you may need to do some weight reduction. From what I understand if you're looking to do something like NASA time trials, the Autopower 4-point roll bars that bolt in are legal for that, but nothing wheel to wheel. Personally I wouldn't race with a bolt in cage anyway.
If you want my recommendation, if you're not racing which it seems like you're not I'd just go with a bolt in Autopower bar and move the harness mounting locations down to the rear seat area if you're sharing the center location between two passengers.
Chris, the only way to ensure the bar/cage doesn't poke through the floor is to weld it to the side rails of the car with heavy plate steel. Even then, nothing's guaranteed not to come apart. The bolt in cages look to me like they are usually too far inboard to weld them properly so for a weld in cage you're probably better off getting something custom done, maybe that's the reason they were thinking of.
Also, if you're going to be driving the car on the street AT ALL, do not put any tubes forward of the B-pillar. If you knock your head on one in an accident without a helmet even wtih padding, the results wouldn't be pretty.
Another thing to consider for legality is if the tubing thickness of the cage/bar meets the regulations for the weight of your car. If it doesn't, you may need to do some weight reduction. From what I understand if you're looking to do something like NASA time trials, the Autopower 4-point roll bars that bolt in are legal for that, but nothing wheel to wheel. Personally I wouldn't race with a bolt in cage anyway.
If you want my recommendation, if you're not racing which it seems like you're not I'd just go with a bolt in Autopower bar and move the harness mounting locations down to the rear seat area if you're sharing the center location between two passengers.
| spidey02wrx | 03-22-2004 09:09 AM |
I have the autopower bolt-in 4pt currently. I put it in after nearly rolling the car at a track day. Subaru's seem to have very good rollover protection from the factory, but the bar:
1) lets me run race buckets and harnesses legally at the track
2) gives me more confidence that in case of a rollover, I have better than factory protection
I was also witness to a friend's integra rolling with the autopower bar in, and it held up very well, no posts poking through the tub or any of that. I also have a friend with a welded in 4pt in an RS that he had custom made for around $800 which in hindsight is something I should have done, but was not an option for me at the time.
ps: I'm not sure if you are the guy with the black wrx I talked to at the NASA event a couple of weeks ago, so I just wanted to re-iterate what I said to you in person.
mark
1) lets me run race buckets and harnesses legally at the track
2) gives me more confidence that in case of a rollover, I have better than factory protection
I was also witness to a friend's integra rolling with the autopower bar in, and it held up very well, no posts poking through the tub or any of that. I also have a friend with a welded in 4pt in an RS that he had custom made for around $800 which in hindsight is something I should have done, but was not an option for me at the time.
ps: I'm not sure if you are the guy with the black wrx I talked to at the NASA event a couple of weeks ago, so I just wanted to re-iterate what I said to you in person.
mark
| elgorey | 03-22-2004 10:57 AM |
Cusco cages are a joke. They are for street cars and show cars, and are not even close to being a legal roadracing cage.
Get the autopower. Better engineered and built, safer, and even cheaper. If you plan to do some track days, all the more reason to get a real rollbar.
Get the autopower. Better engineered and built, safer, and even cheaper. If you plan to do some track days, all the more reason to get a real rollbar.
| njpreppy | 03-22-2004 12:18 PM |
Mark, I was at the NASA event recently, I think I remember who you are.
Seems like the consensus is that autopower cages are decent. A few opinions have been expressed that the 4pt cage is the way to go, but... With a 4pt cage, you cannot have removable side bars. What happens if you spin out and get side swiped?
Someone mentioned seats. A 5pt in the stock seats has to come over the front meaning that you can slide until you hit the belt...not a good thing. The only seat I'm aware of that can use 5pt harnesses and STILL allow the stock seat belts is the Recaro Speed 5pt harness. I'd love to run the Sparco Pro 2000 but Andy from Rallispec said that stock belts cannot be used with it.
I know I mentioned that I wanted to keep this an autopower vs cusco forum, but a bunch of other things have come into play with regards to cage/rollbar selection.
ellisnc: You said to move the belt locations to the rear factory seat belt locations. That is where every manufacturer's warning says they can cause spine compression. Greater than a 5 degree slope downward is harmful, which is why I put them on the rear deck instead of the rear base.
In regards to bars in front of the B-pillar: Is it a real and true concern that bars near the head area with stock seat belts can cause more damage than good, even when padded? I have only heard opinions on this and never seen any real evidence. If anyone has a link to a thread or site which explains this it would be greatly appreciated. I understand the simple concept: an enormous bar is right by your head, but how is that different from hitting your head on the window or something else?
Seems like this: [url]http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=60805&Category_Code=AP805[/url] is my new answer. I would get the removable cross brace and harness bar...
Based on everything I have read, it seems like I should try to cancel my order on the cusco 6pt, or at least resell it and not even install it. I'm going to wait another day to make this decision to wait and see what everyone has to say when they get off of work or school (college = do nothing, i'm always around).
Thanks everyone,
Chris
Seems like the consensus is that autopower cages are decent. A few opinions have been expressed that the 4pt cage is the way to go, but... With a 4pt cage, you cannot have removable side bars. What happens if you spin out and get side swiped?
Someone mentioned seats. A 5pt in the stock seats has to come over the front meaning that you can slide until you hit the belt...not a good thing. The only seat I'm aware of that can use 5pt harnesses and STILL allow the stock seat belts is the Recaro Speed 5pt harness. I'd love to run the Sparco Pro 2000 but Andy from Rallispec said that stock belts cannot be used with it.
I know I mentioned that I wanted to keep this an autopower vs cusco forum, but a bunch of other things have come into play with regards to cage/rollbar selection.
ellisnc: You said to move the belt locations to the rear factory seat belt locations. That is where every manufacturer's warning says they can cause spine compression. Greater than a 5 degree slope downward is harmful, which is why I put them on the rear deck instead of the rear base.
In regards to bars in front of the B-pillar: Is it a real and true concern that bars near the head area with stock seat belts can cause more damage than good, even when padded? I have only heard opinions on this and never seen any real evidence. If anyone has a link to a thread or site which explains this it would be greatly appreciated. I understand the simple concept: an enormous bar is right by your head, but how is that different from hitting your head on the window or something else?
Seems like this: [url]http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=60805&Category_Code=AP805[/url] is my new answer. I would get the removable cross brace and harness bar...
Based on everything I have read, it seems like I should try to cancel my order on the cusco 6pt, or at least resell it and not even install it. I'm going to wait another day to make this decision to wait and see what everyone has to say when they get off of work or school (college = do nothing, i'm always around).
Thanks everyone,
Chris
| spidey02wrx | 03-22-2004 01:09 PM |
I would think that in a DE situation the chances of car-to-car contact are lower than just having an off and rolling/hitting a barrier so I never gave much thought to sidebars. Most DE incidents are one car driver error, AFAIK. Basically you need a cage (that's a full, custom welded cage) for wheel to wheel. For DE's it's overkill, plus it automatically make your car unsafe on the street even fully padded. If you want to run harness at the track, and want a little better rollover protection get the autopower or similar roll bar. Otherwise stick with stock belts/seats and go and have fun.
Always remember, its your butt out there. So if you need something to make you feel safe/comfortable, do it. As long as it is ACTUALLY safer and within the rules of whoever you choose to run with.
btw: I have a sparco EVO with g-force harnesses and the stock belts work fine on the street with them, so I don' t know where you're coming from with the Recaro. There a ton of people running race seats around here, I'm sure they'll chime in as well.
Always remember, its your butt out there. So if you need something to make you feel safe/comfortable, do it. As long as it is ACTUALLY safer and within the rules of whoever you choose to run with.
btw: I have a sparco EVO with g-force harnesses and the stock belts work fine on the street with them, so I don' t know where you're coming from with the Recaro. There a ton of people running race seats around here, I'm sure they'll chime in as well.
| njpreppy | 03-22-2004 01:27 PM |
spidey: What is a DE situation? And what is AFAIK?
I'd like someone to chime in who has a Sparco Pro 2000 seat just to let me know for sure. The evo is a bit different in the height of the side butt support.
I can't tell what overkill is because I dont know what DE is. If you hit a wall straight on, a wheel to wheel bolt-in will be better than a 4pt anything.
I'd like someone to chime in who has a Sparco Pro 2000 seat just to let me know for sure. The evo is a bit different in the height of the side butt support.
I can't tell what overkill is because I dont know what DE is. If you hit a wall straight on, a wheel to wheel bolt-in will be better than a 4pt anything.
| spidey02wrx | 03-22-2004 03:23 PM |
DE: drivers education also known as: track day, HPDE (high performance driver's education).
AFAIK: as far as I know.
Its your car, but if it was me and I wanted to drive the car on the street at all (even to events) there is no way I'd be putting in a full a cage, plus (I'm not sure about this) a bolt in cage won't do much for a head on collision.
AFAIK: as far as I know.
Its your car, but if it was me and I wanted to drive the car on the street at all (even to events) there is no way I'd be putting in a full a cage, plus (I'm not sure about this) a bolt in cage won't do much for a head on collision.
| DILLIGAF Racing | 03-22-2004 06:43 PM |
From reading this thread, I thought I would chime in on some things. I have never even seen a cusco cage, so I am not going to post anything about it. Autopowers are good cages. We have a bolt it cage in one of our race cars, that we also welded (after we bolted it down). No problems so far, but the driver has done a good job of keeping it shiney side up. We sell Autopower cages through our race shops, and have sold and installed alot of them, and let me tell you....It does not seem easy/convenient to remove the cross bars and other bars when you are not using them. So I would suggest either getting the bar and keeping it there, or just don't get it. Even if you go the 4 point route, you are still taking a risk of hitting your head on it. So pad eveything, your head will thank you.
| njpreppy | 03-22-2004 06:54 PM |
Thanks dilligaf. I bought 36' of padding, aka enough to cover a full cage. On my way to the grocery store, i made the diameter of the bar plus padding with my fingers and put it between my head and the top of the window frame. They touched. I could more than easily bang my head into the padding. But how is that different from a window?
Also dilligaf: the crossbrace, if that is not easy to remove, then I'm guessing the side bars are not easy either? How many hours does 'easy' constitute?
-Chris
Also dilligaf: the crossbrace, if that is not easy to remove, then I'm guessing the side bars are not easy either? How many hours does 'easy' constitute?
-Chris
| DILLIGAF Racing | 03-22-2004 07:06 PM |
I wouldn't think hours, but the cages go in there pretty tight, and it didn't seem like it would be very fun to take these bars out, even if they don't need to come out. The door bars, if I remember correctly aren't all that high, so they wouldn't be too big of an issue to just keep them, but I am not sure, we added more bars to the cage. How is the bar any different then hitting your head on the window???? You hit the window hard enough with your head, it will brake, steel won't. Believe me, I have hit my head on roll bars, just riding around the paddock and it doesn't feel good.
What kind of racing are you doing that you have to worry about SCCA ruling?
What kind of racing are you doing that you have to worry about SCCA ruling?
| ChrisDP | 03-22-2004 07:26 PM |
A window takes less force to break than a metal bar beneath padding that compresses to ineffective thickness.
If you're really interested, I just talked to a guy from Piper Motorsports this weekend, they have templates for a WRX cage. Piper's under heavy demand, currently taking order for cages in May (or something to that effect). High quality though.
If you're really interested, I just talked to a guy from Piper Motorsports this weekend, they have templates for a WRX cage. Piper's under heavy demand, currently taking order for cages in May (or something to that effect). High quality though.
| njpreppy | 03-22-2004 07:31 PM |
Dilligaf: Just want something that is SCCA legal incase some track day regulations would require it or incase one day I get a second car and actually race this one. Who knows, just would be nice to have if an SCCA legal one could be had for the same price as others.
So a giant bar next to my head sounds bad...I think I'm moving more towards the autopower 4pt. Although, if I was to hit a wall head on at one of these events, a 4pt would not do much. It's a tough call. This is my daily driver but for the limited days I'll be using it at track days I'd like as much protection as I can get.
So a giant bar next to my head sounds bad...I think I'm moving more towards the autopower 4pt. Although, if I was to hit a wall head on at one of these events, a 4pt would not do much. It's a tough call. This is my daily driver but for the limited days I'll be using it at track days I'd like as much protection as I can get.
| DILLIGAF Racing | 03-22-2004 07:39 PM |
I would say either run with whats on order (unless they let you cancel it), or try and sell it and get the Autopower bar. Its good that you are thinking of safety, but honestly a 6 point for a car that used primarily on the street is a little over kill, in my opinion. There is no class as of now, in the SCCA, that will allow a WRX to run in door to door competition. If you are going to be worried about that, save the money and buy a dedicated track car that is allowed in SCCA IT Racing. I KNOW SOME REGIONS ALLOW IT IN ITE.
| elgorey | 03-22-2004 07:44 PM |
this is a shot of a cusco cage in a wrx
notice the complete lack of triangulation, small diameter tubing, [i]several[/i] bends in the rear downtubes (scca spec require zero bends) and lack of even a harness bar.
[img]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI3ODAyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/img]
notice the complete lack of triangulation, small diameter tubing, [i]several[/i] bends in the rear downtubes (scca spec require zero bends) and lack of even a harness bar.
[img]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI3ODAyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/img]
| RaceComp Engineering | 03-22-2004 07:53 PM |
Ell..
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ellisnc [/i]
[B]Myles, I thought you were the one busting my ass in that harness thread a while back for not wanting to install my harnesses on the bolt-in roll bar for fear of it poking through the floor? Maybe that was someone else that didn't believe the bar could go through the floor?
Chris, the only way to ensure the bar/cage doesn't poke through the floor is to weld it to the side rails of the car with heavy plate steel. Even then, nothing's guaranteed not to come apart. The bolt in cages look to me like they are usually too far inboard to weld them properly so for a weld in cage you're probably better off getting something custom done, maybe that's the reason they were thinking of.
Also, if you're going to be driving the car on the street AT ALL, do not put any tubes forward of the B-pillar. If you knock your head on one in an accident without a helmet even wtih padding, the results wouldn't be pretty.
Another thing to consider for legality is if the tubing thickness of the cage/bar meets the regulations for the weight of your car. If it doesn't, you may need to do some weight reduction. From what I understand if you're looking to do something like NASA time trials, the Autopower 4-point roll bars that bolt in are legal for that, but nothing wheel to wheel. Personally I wouldn't race with a bolt in cage anyway.
If you want my recommendation, if you're not racing which it seems like you're not I'd just go with a bolt in Autopower bar and move the harness mounting locations down to the rear seat area if you're sharing the center location between two passengers. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure, about that thread, I do remember it. I do rememeber seeing someone hurt in real time, and all the agony until rescue workers got there,..and I remember saying ..I'll never by this brand cage. Here is one thing to keep in mind,....not all cages are able to attach to a cars frame rails, side beams, etc, ..so say a xx brand for a Nissan may be a great design and not for a late model Camaro. So keep that in mind. Alot of the designs by brand XX that I have in mind, DO NOT WLD OR BOLT TO THE SIDE OF THE FRAME OF THE CAR, they attach to the floor in alot of ITA, ITC, ITE examples, so its difficult for me to just say, yeah this brand is fine to use. Maybe I remember this day like no other in my mind ,.but here is the other issue I have with this whole "cage thing".....If you put x dollar into power, then you can put the same into safety,.....safety is # 1,.nothing else will matter when things start going very slowly and turn black and white, as in a roll over. So here is my .02 cents worth, until you( or anyone ) can afford something that hands down will save your life in the most unexpected of all situations,...dont do track events. Reason is simple, once you realize it, its too late.
944 turbo guy
[B]Myles, I thought you were the one busting my ass in that harness thread a while back for not wanting to install my harnesses on the bolt-in roll bar for fear of it poking through the floor? Maybe that was someone else that didn't believe the bar could go through the floor?
Chris, the only way to ensure the bar/cage doesn't poke through the floor is to weld it to the side rails of the car with heavy plate steel. Even then, nothing's guaranteed not to come apart. The bolt in cages look to me like they are usually too far inboard to weld them properly so for a weld in cage you're probably better off getting something custom done, maybe that's the reason they were thinking of.
Also, if you're going to be driving the car on the street AT ALL, do not put any tubes forward of the B-pillar. If you knock your head on one in an accident without a helmet even wtih padding, the results wouldn't be pretty.
Another thing to consider for legality is if the tubing thickness of the cage/bar meets the regulations for the weight of your car. If it doesn't, you may need to do some weight reduction. From what I understand if you're looking to do something like NASA time trials, the Autopower 4-point roll bars that bolt in are legal for that, but nothing wheel to wheel. Personally I wouldn't race with a bolt in cage anyway.
If you want my recommendation, if you're not racing which it seems like you're not I'd just go with a bolt in Autopower bar and move the harness mounting locations down to the rear seat area if you're sharing the center location between two passengers. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure, about that thread, I do remember it. I do rememeber seeing someone hurt in real time, and all the agony until rescue workers got there,..and I remember saying ..I'll never by this brand cage. Here is one thing to keep in mind,....not all cages are able to attach to a cars frame rails, side beams, etc, ..so say a xx brand for a Nissan may be a great design and not for a late model Camaro. So keep that in mind. Alot of the designs by brand XX that I have in mind, DO NOT WLD OR BOLT TO THE SIDE OF THE FRAME OF THE CAR, they attach to the floor in alot of ITA, ITC, ITE examples, so its difficult for me to just say, yeah this brand is fine to use. Maybe I remember this day like no other in my mind ,.but here is the other issue I have with this whole "cage thing".....If you put x dollar into power, then you can put the same into safety,.....safety is # 1,.nothing else will matter when things start going very slowly and turn black and white, as in a roll over. So here is my .02 cents worth, until you( or anyone ) can afford something that hands down will save your life in the most unexpected of all situations,...dont do track events. Reason is simple, once you realize it, its too late.
944 turbo guy
| elgorey | 03-22-2004 10:47 PM |
Weld plates can rip out as well, so unfortunately there is no perfect solution.
A custom welded cage is no doubt better than a bolt-in, but a welded cage is not only much more expensive but its permanent.
(btw- the Ferrari 360GT uses a bolt-in rollcage)
And if this is a street driven vehicle, you should really only do a rollbar (4pt.) for street-saftey reasons.
A custom welded cage is no doubt better than a bolt-in, but a welded cage is not only much more expensive but its permanent.
(btw- the Ferrari 360GT uses a bolt-in rollcage)
And if this is a street driven vehicle, you should really only do a rollbar (4pt.) for street-saftey reasons.
| ellisnc | 03-23-2004 06:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by njpreppy [/i]
[B]
ellisnc: You said to move the belt locations to the rear factory seat belt locations. That is where every manufacturer's warning says they can cause spine compression. Greater than a 5 degree slope downward is harmful, which is why I put them on the rear deck instead of the rear base.
In regards to bars in front of the B-pillar: Is it a real and true concern that bars near the head area with stock seat belts can cause more damage than good, even when padded? I have only heard opinions on this and never seen any real evidence. If anyone has a link to a thread or site which explains this it would be greatly appreciated. I understand the simple concept: an enormous bar is right by your head, but how is that different from hitting your head on the window or something else?
[/B][/QUOTE]
The instructions for my harnesses indicate anything between 20 degrees down from horizontal and 35 degrees up from vertical is the desired range. If you're using the proper seat I don't see how minor angle changes could affect the outcome of an impact since the seat is controlling the harness movement unless it breaks which is also possible. I remember saying in the other thread where a couple people were crawling all over me that the safety equipment manufacturers such as TRW (Sabelt) or Takata have lots of experience making safety equipment (I work for Honda which uses both as suppliers), so if they recommend installation in a certain way and I install it that way I trust it will work as they designed it to through their know how. If you disagree, fine.
I was accused before of being Mr. JDM or something because I have Takata harnesses. I get them through work direct from the supplier which is why I use them. Also if that were true why do I have Stoptech brakes, Cobalt pads, Recaro seats and an Autopower bar on my car? Don't you think I'd have Endless brakes, Bride seats and a Cusco roll bar if I cared? For some reason the harnesses have the reputation around here for being some poser or show harness or something. I don't understand it.
What I was getting at is if you have two passengers and you're sharing a mounting point between the two of them, I wouldn't be sure that point was designed to carry the load of two people in a impact. If you're not doing this then ignore what I said.
Glass is a whole lot softer than steel tubing. Next time you think about it, take the garnishes off your B pillars and look at the structure under them. All that plastic under there is for head impact.
[B]
ellisnc: You said to move the belt locations to the rear factory seat belt locations. That is where every manufacturer's warning says they can cause spine compression. Greater than a 5 degree slope downward is harmful, which is why I put them on the rear deck instead of the rear base.
In regards to bars in front of the B-pillar: Is it a real and true concern that bars near the head area with stock seat belts can cause more damage than good, even when padded? I have only heard opinions on this and never seen any real evidence. If anyone has a link to a thread or site which explains this it would be greatly appreciated. I understand the simple concept: an enormous bar is right by your head, but how is that different from hitting your head on the window or something else?
[/B][/QUOTE]
The instructions for my harnesses indicate anything between 20 degrees down from horizontal and 35 degrees up from vertical is the desired range. If you're using the proper seat I don't see how minor angle changes could affect the outcome of an impact since the seat is controlling the harness movement unless it breaks which is also possible. I remember saying in the other thread where a couple people were crawling all over me that the safety equipment manufacturers such as TRW (Sabelt) or Takata have lots of experience making safety equipment (I work for Honda which uses both as suppliers), so if they recommend installation in a certain way and I install it that way I trust it will work as they designed it to through their know how. If you disagree, fine.
I was accused before of being Mr. JDM or something because I have Takata harnesses. I get them through work direct from the supplier which is why I use them. Also if that were true why do I have Stoptech brakes, Cobalt pads, Recaro seats and an Autopower bar on my car? Don't you think I'd have Endless brakes, Bride seats and a Cusco roll bar if I cared? For some reason the harnesses have the reputation around here for being some poser or show harness or something. I don't understand it.
What I was getting at is if you have two passengers and you're sharing a mounting point between the two of them, I wouldn't be sure that point was designed to carry the load of two people in a impact. If you're not doing this then ignore what I said.
Glass is a whole lot softer than steel tubing. Next time you think about it, take the garnishes off your B pillars and look at the structure under them. All that plastic under there is for head impact.
| IXLR8 | 03-23-2004 09:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by njpreppy [/i]
[B]Just want something that is SCCA legal.... incase one day I get a second car and actually race this one. [/B][/QUOTE]
I mentioned this earlier but it may have been lost in the conversation... SCCA and others have changed their requirements for roll cage material from ERW to DOM. They will NOT issue new log books (required if you are ever going to race the car) to cars with ERW tubing.
Chances are excellent that unless you specifically ask for DOM, your bar (AutoPower included) will be made from ERW. Not such a big deal if you choose a bolt-in bar (it doesn't cost that much and can be relatively easily removed), it IS a big deal if you go with a full cage, especially a weld-in one... if it's ERW, you might as well start over if you ever want to race it...
(The big "However" though is, what kind of racing are you considering? There are currently NO national classes of amatuer road racing that include turbo-charged cars. There may be some SCCA regions that allow the WRX to compete in ITE (although I don't know of any), so the whole point may be moot.)
[B]Just want something that is SCCA legal.... incase one day I get a second car and actually race this one. [/B][/QUOTE]
I mentioned this earlier but it may have been lost in the conversation... SCCA and others have changed their requirements for roll cage material from ERW to DOM. They will NOT issue new log books (required if you are ever going to race the car) to cars with ERW tubing.
Chances are excellent that unless you specifically ask for DOM, your bar (AutoPower included) will be made from ERW. Not such a big deal if you choose a bolt-in bar (it doesn't cost that much and can be relatively easily removed), it IS a big deal if you go with a full cage, especially a weld-in one... if it's ERW, you might as well start over if you ever want to race it...
(The big "However" though is, what kind of racing are you considering? There are currently NO national classes of amatuer road racing that include turbo-charged cars. There may be some SCCA regions that allow the WRX to compete in ITE (although I don't know of any), so the whole point may be moot.)
| njpreppy | 03-23-2004 11:27 AM |
ixlr8: Autopower offers DOM for an extra $35. Thanks for your input on that, i'm definitely going to get it. I think i've decided on the autopower 4pt with crossbrace and harness bar in DOM tubing.
I plan on only doing track days, no racing with my car. "Race your race car, not your street car" Ya, I have no race car. I do remember seeing wrx's in races though. I'll try to see if I can find that lying around my messy bedroom.
-Chris
I plan on only doing track days, no racing with my car. "Race your race car, not your street car" Ya, I have no race car. I do remember seeing wrx's in races though. I'll try to see if I can find that lying around my messy bedroom.
-Chris
| lo-buck | 03-23-2004 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey[/i]
[B] this is a shot of a cusco cage in a wrx
notice the complete lack of triangulation, small diameter tubing, [i]several[/i] bends in the rear downtubes (scca spec require zero bends) and lack of even a harness bar.
[img]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI3ODAyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/img] [/B][/QUOTE]
also, the joints where one tube attaches to another are just tabs and through bolts instead of sleeve with through bolt. if the bolt were to ever break on the cusco junk, the bar would be free to flail around in the cabin.
basically forget the cusco and go for the autopower, kirk, or custom LEGAL peice.
i think we need a stickey in this forum about cusco cages in circut situatuins.
-spenc
[B] this is a shot of a cusco cage in a wrx
notice the complete lack of triangulation, small diameter tubing, [i]several[/i] bends in the rear downtubes (scca spec require zero bends) and lack of even a harness bar.
[img]http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI3ODAyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg[/img] [/B][/QUOTE]
also, the joints where one tube attaches to another are just tabs and through bolts instead of sleeve with through bolt. if the bolt were to ever break on the cusco junk, the bar would be free to flail around in the cabin.
basically forget the cusco and go for the autopower, kirk, or custom LEGAL peice.
i think we need a stickey in this forum about cusco cages in circut situatuins.
-spenc
| Zephyr | 03-23-2004 03:50 PM |
Make sure you come see me at the next NASA-X on the 4th of next month. Just look for me, I have the BRP RS with the swap that is running in Gruppe C with #517 on the door.
Cancel your Cusco order. It's not worth wasting your money on one. Being that you are just doing autocross and planning on doing HPDE's there is no reason for you to get a full cage. The roll bar that I had made is more than sufficient for what I do and what you plan on doing too.
Z
Cancel your Cusco order. It's not worth wasting your money on one. Being that you are just doing autocross and planning on doing HPDE's there is no reason for you to get a full cage. The roll bar that I had made is more than sufficient for what I do and what you plan on doing too.
Z
| spidey02wrx | 03-23-2004 04:03 PM |
^^^^
yeah he's the friend with the custom roll-bar, makes me jealous :mad:
yeah he's the friend with the custom roll-bar, makes me jealous :mad:
| njpreppy | 03-23-2004 06:01 PM |
I'd love to be at that autox but my cousin is getting married down here in Virginia that weekend...till next time.
Speaking of autox though, do you guys heel toe double clutch to 1st through those hairpins? I have nothin in 2nd gear coming out of them...
Speaking of autox though, do you guys heel toe double clutch to 1st through those hairpins? I have nothin in 2nd gear coming out of them...
| elgorey | 03-23-2004 06:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by IXLR8 [/i] There are currently NO national classes of amatuer road racing that include turbo-charged cars. [/B][/QUOTE]
You havent been keeping up with your fasttracks!
The WRX is legal in T2.
Now the [i]competitiveness[/i] is a different story......
You havent been keeping up with your fasttracks!
The WRX is legal in T2.
Now the [i]competitiveness[/i] is a different story......
| lo-buck | 03-23-2004 07:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by spidey02wrx[/i]
[B] ^^^^
yeah he's the friend with the custom roll-bar, makes me jealous :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
dont worry spidey. we can unbolt ours if we need to sell and fill the holes with silicone (or when my car gets weld in race cage).
-spenc
[B] ^^^^
yeah he's the friend with the custom roll-bar, makes me jealous :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
dont worry spidey. we can unbolt ours if we need to sell and fill the holes with silicone (or when my car gets weld in race cage).
-spenc
| DILLIGAF Racing | 03-23-2004 10:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey[/i]
[B] You havent been keeping up with your fasttracks!
The WRX is legal in T2.
Now the [i]competitiveness[/i] is a different story...... [/B][/QUOTE]
I used to think the WRX would have a chance, then I saw the new cars classed in T2 along with it.... CTS-V, it may be heavy, but it will go like snot in a straight line.
[B] You havent been keeping up with your fasttracks!
The WRX is legal in T2.
Now the [i]competitiveness[/i] is a different story...... [/B][/QUOTE]
I used to think the WRX would have a chance, then I saw the new cars classed in T2 along with it.... CTS-V, it may be heavy, but it will go like snot in a straight line.
| SlowPoke00 | 04-17-2005 09:46 PM |
with a 6 point cage in a wrx.. i think i'd be safe daily driving... im too short to hit my head on the bars... i guess thats a good thing :P
| Zephyr | 04-17-2005 10:11 PM |
[QUOTE=SlowPoke00]with a 6 point cage in a wrx.. i think i'd be safe daily driving... im too short to hit my head on the bars... i guess thats a good thing :P[/QUOTE]
This topic has been debated so many times on so many boards. If you are going to use it as a racecar or track car and drive it to events or just buzz around town one or two days a week it's OK but you had better pad it well. If you are going to us it as a daily driver then I would say no as you are putting yourself at risk as well as your passengers.
Z
This topic has been debated so many times on so many boards. If you are going to use it as a racecar or track car and drive it to events or just buzz around town one or two days a week it's OK but you had better pad it well. If you are going to us it as a daily driver then I would say no as you are putting yourself at risk as well as your passengers.
Z
| jmolaver | 04-18-2005 12:59 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]
If you're really interested, I just talked to a guy from Piper Motorsports this weekend, they have templates for a WRX cage. Piper's under heavy demand, currently taking order for cages in May (or something to that effect). High quality though.[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^^^^ Agreed!!
Mitch Piper is an absolute artist with a welder, and his work will make any prefabbed bolt-in cage look like a plastic toy in comparison. He's an expert in rollcage/harness safety, he professionally races, and he builds seemingly every cage I come across in the mid-atlantic region.
It's probably not cheaper then a Cusco/Autopower/Safety Devices cage, but it will be comparable in price, exactly what you're looking for, and safer.
He fabricated me a harness bar for my STi that is entirely DOM rollcage steel and is absolutely perfect for what I'm looking for (save the no harness bar arguments, I've heard them, it's DE use only).
Piper Motorsport
8393 Euclid Ave #Q
Manassas, VA
703.530.0353
If you're really interested, I just talked to a guy from Piper Motorsports this weekend, they have templates for a WRX cage. Piper's under heavy demand, currently taking order for cages in May (or something to that effect). High quality though.[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^^^^ Agreed!!
Mitch Piper is an absolute artist with a welder, and his work will make any prefabbed bolt-in cage look like a plastic toy in comparison. He's an expert in rollcage/harness safety, he professionally races, and he builds seemingly every cage I come across in the mid-atlantic region.
It's probably not cheaper then a Cusco/Autopower/Safety Devices cage, but it will be comparable in price, exactly what you're looking for, and safer.
He fabricated me a harness bar for my STi that is entirely DOM rollcage steel and is absolutely perfect for what I'm looking for (save the no harness bar arguments, I've heard them, it's DE use only).
Piper Motorsport
8393 Euclid Ave #Q
Manassas, VA
703.530.0353
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