| sdecker | 01-13-2004 09:54 AM |
HPDE instructors -- your input requested
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Hey gang,
I know quite a few of you are HPDE instructors. I have been doing many track days each year for three years now. Last time out, I was approached by one of the lead instructors and asked if I was interested in teaching. This person said he would 'sponsor' me and was very happy with my skills. This was for a BMWCCA event, by the way.
I'm aware of the fringe benefit of 'free' track time with many BMWCCA events, and that is reason enough for me to pursue it. Before I just jump in, I thought I'd ask my fellow HPDE folks what they think about this. Are there any significant pros or cons, things I should know about going in, anything at all you can think of?
I am a natural teacher (adjunct faculty at a local university for years) and I'm detail oriented and level headed. I won't ever be the 'fastest' guy on the track but I may well be the most consistent lap after lap. Is this a good trait for HPDE instructors?
Lastly, what about other organizations like PCA, etc.? Any light you can shed would be great!
Thanks all, I appreciate your feedback.
Scott
I know quite a few of you are HPDE instructors. I have been doing many track days each year for three years now. Last time out, I was approached by one of the lead instructors and asked if I was interested in teaching. This person said he would 'sponsor' me and was very happy with my skills. This was for a BMWCCA event, by the way.
I'm aware of the fringe benefit of 'free' track time with many BMWCCA events, and that is reason enough for me to pursue it. Before I just jump in, I thought I'd ask my fellow HPDE folks what they think about this. Are there any significant pros or cons, things I should know about going in, anything at all you can think of?
I am a natural teacher (adjunct faculty at a local university for years) and I'm detail oriented and level headed. I won't ever be the 'fastest' guy on the track but I may well be the most consistent lap after lap. Is this a good trait for HPDE instructors?
Lastly, what about other organizations like PCA, etc.? Any light you can shed would be great!
Thanks all, I appreciate your feedback.
Scott
| leecea | 01-13-2004 10:08 AM |
[QUOTE]I am a natural teacher (adjunct faculty at a local university for years) and I'm detail oriented and level headed. I won't ever be the 'fastest' guy on the track but I may well be the most consistent lap after lap. Is this a good trait for HPDE instructors?[/QUOTE]
I don't know about HPDEs, but those are traits that I have always appreciated when receiving instruction in other sports - along with a firm but encouraging approach to making me do it right!
Good luck.
I don't know about HPDEs, but those are traits that I have always appreciated when receiving instruction in other sports - along with a firm but encouraging approach to making me do it right!
Good luck.
| sdecker | 01-13-2004 11:30 AM |
Thanks!
Come on, HPDE instructors...you know you're out there. Help the FNG out. :D
Scott
Come on, HPDE instructors...you know you're out there. Help the FNG out. :D
Scott
| Ryan | 01-13-2004 11:32 AM |
A few things..... the free track time is very nice. Now, i will split a hotel room with one person instead of 6 or 7 since i am not paying an entry fee. And if i've signed my students off for sunday, i can go out in the school groups too.... you can really rack up the free seat time then.
But at the same time, its hard. You will feel completely wiped at the end of a weekend, going from student to student, to your car, back to the students, fixing your busted car, back to the students, driving your car, etc, etc....
Its also hard knowing you're putting your life in someone else's hands. You assume their car isnt busted and their brakes are not going to fail coming out of teh banking at Lowe's and send you into a concrete wall at 130mph. You assume they're not going to barrel roll down the chute at summit. But it can happen. And it does happen. If you can accept the risk, then good.
You have to really want to do it to be motivated to instruct. A friend of mine said once "it takes a special kind of stupid to instruct". But...... when the student "gets it" and comes out of the weekend with a big smile on their face, its very rewarding. Thats worth it to me more than the free seat time.
Also, invest in a communicator. I just bought one this winter, and i'm glad i did. Make sure your car wont be busted during the weekend, because you wont have time to fix it.
Just some thoughts......
But at the same time, its hard. You will feel completely wiped at the end of a weekend, going from student to student, to your car, back to the students, fixing your busted car, back to the students, driving your car, etc, etc....
Its also hard knowing you're putting your life in someone else's hands. You assume their car isnt busted and their brakes are not going to fail coming out of teh banking at Lowe's and send you into a concrete wall at 130mph. You assume they're not going to barrel roll down the chute at summit. But it can happen. And it does happen. If you can accept the risk, then good.
You have to really want to do it to be motivated to instruct. A friend of mine said once "it takes a special kind of stupid to instruct". But...... when the student "gets it" and comes out of the weekend with a big smile on their face, its very rewarding. Thats worth it to me more than the free seat time.
Also, invest in a communicator. I just bought one this winter, and i'm glad i did. Make sure your car wont be busted during the weekend, because you wont have time to fix it.
Just some thoughts......
| sdecker | 01-13-2004 12:55 PM |
Ryan:
[QUOTE]But at the same time, its hard. You will feel completely wiped at the end of a weekend, going from student to student, to your car, back to the students, fixing your busted car, back to the students, driving your car, etc, etc.... [/QUOTE]
I have noticed that my instructors are definitely working hard, many times running from session to session with no break in between. I'm OK with that. All the good things in life require a little hard work -- don't they? :D
[QUOTE]But...... when the student "gets it" and comes out of the weekend with a big smile on their face, its very rewarding. Thats worth it to me more than the free seat time.[/QUOTE]
Having been a (different kind of) instructor for some time, I agree that seeing the light come on is definitely a great reward. It's why I continue to teach topics that I've taught 200 times. Well, that and the money. :D
[QUOTE]Also, invest in a communicator. I just bought one this winter, and i'm glad i did.[/QUOTE]
What kind did you get? I have frankly not been very impressed with the ones my previous instructors have had. The quality of the units I've seen is not too bad, but the wiring connections are almost always horrible. Any leads on where I might find a selection of these things?
Thanks again for your comments. I appreciate it.
Scott
[QUOTE]But at the same time, its hard. You will feel completely wiped at the end of a weekend, going from student to student, to your car, back to the students, fixing your busted car, back to the students, driving your car, etc, etc.... [/QUOTE]
I have noticed that my instructors are definitely working hard, many times running from session to session with no break in between. I'm OK with that. All the good things in life require a little hard work -- don't they? :D
[QUOTE]But...... when the student "gets it" and comes out of the weekend with a big smile on their face, its very rewarding. Thats worth it to me more than the free seat time.[/QUOTE]
Having been a (different kind of) instructor for some time, I agree that seeing the light come on is definitely a great reward. It's why I continue to teach topics that I've taught 200 times. Well, that and the money. :D
[QUOTE]Also, invest in a communicator. I just bought one this winter, and i'm glad i did.[/QUOTE]
What kind did you get? I have frankly not been very impressed with the ones my previous instructors have had. The quality of the units I've seen is not too bad, but the wiring connections are almost always horrible. Any leads on where I might find a selection of these things?
Thanks again for your comments. I appreciate it.
Scott
| Ryan | 01-13-2004 01:11 PM |
Chatterbox. Only way to go... Nady sucks a fat one. Everyone i know with one has thrown it in the trash and gone with chatterbox.
edit: i bought mine from HMS motorsports. No complaints.
edit: i bought mine from HMS motorsports. No complaints.
| dknv | 01-13-2004 02:14 PM |
I've instructed beginners for ACCNA (Audi Club) for a couple of events, and agree - it's very rewarding, and by the end of a weekend, I've been drained and yet energized by their progress.
Communicators will be a big asset, make sure you have plenty of battery supplied for them. With some students you'll do a lot of talking and by the end of a weekend you may be hoarse.
Be ready for all manner of questions about car setup, brakes, tire pressures.
With one student, I wanted to throttle him back because he was driving too aggressively for his experience level; with another, I wanted them to push a little harder outside of their comfort zone. So knowing what you'll do going in will be helpful (and tell the student ahead of time what you'll do if you want them to slow down or speed up). And to Ryan's point, eventually you may be with a student who has an 'off' or worse. Think about how you might handle this ahead of time so it won't catch you off-guard when or if it does happen. I know when I had a spin at turn 3 / thunderhill, and went into the mud -- which splattered throughout the inside of my car, and on my instructor as well (we run with windows down) -- we both felt some level of guilt. Me for failing to control the loss of traction and getting him muddy, and him for allowing me to get into that situation. In retrospect though, it was a learning opportunity and somewhat amusing.
Good luck.
Communicators will be a big asset, make sure you have plenty of battery supplied for them. With some students you'll do a lot of talking and by the end of a weekend you may be hoarse.
Be ready for all manner of questions about car setup, brakes, tire pressures.
With one student, I wanted to throttle him back because he was driving too aggressively for his experience level; with another, I wanted them to push a little harder outside of their comfort zone. So knowing what you'll do going in will be helpful (and tell the student ahead of time what you'll do if you want them to slow down or speed up). And to Ryan's point, eventually you may be with a student who has an 'off' or worse. Think about how you might handle this ahead of time so it won't catch you off-guard when or if it does happen. I know when I had a spin at turn 3 / thunderhill, and went into the mud -- which splattered throughout the inside of my car, and on my instructor as well (we run with windows down) -- we both felt some level of guilt. Me for failing to control the loss of traction and getting him muddy, and him for allowing me to get into that situation. In retrospect though, it was a learning opportunity and somewhat amusing.
Good luck.
| sdecker | 01-13-2004 02:25 PM |
DKNV -- that is good stuff.
Even as a student I tend to be a 'just a little at a time' guy instead of going for big chunks of time. As a student I pick one or two corners I know need some work and I pound on them all weekend until I am better at them.
My point is that I would be instructing in the same manner. I would like to sit down with each of my students for a weekend and explain where I am coming from and the benefits that they will gain by starting off 'slow' and correct. I'm hoping this will minimize offs and excursions as the student slowly works up to finding their own and the car's limits. Am I crazy to think that this could work?
I realize that every now and then you're going to find some 21 year old hotshoe who already knows everything. The challenge there will be to rein him/her in before they have an off. Any suggestions on how to do this without completely breaking their spirit?
Thanks, this is very helpful to me.
Scott
Even as a student I tend to be a 'just a little at a time' guy instead of going for big chunks of time. As a student I pick one or two corners I know need some work and I pound on them all weekend until I am better at them.
My point is that I would be instructing in the same manner. I would like to sit down with each of my students for a weekend and explain where I am coming from and the benefits that they will gain by starting off 'slow' and correct. I'm hoping this will minimize offs and excursions as the student slowly works up to finding their own and the car's limits. Am I crazy to think that this could work?
I realize that every now and then you're going to find some 21 year old hotshoe who already knows everything. The challenge there will be to rein him/her in before they have an off. Any suggestions on how to do this without completely breaking their spirit?
Thanks, this is very helpful to me.
Scott
| Ryan | 01-13-2004 03:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sdecker [/i]
[B]I realize that every now and then you're going to find some 21 year old hotshoe who already knows everything. The challenge there will be to rein him/her in before they have an off. Any suggestions on how to do this without completely breaking their spirit?[/B][/QUOTE]
It is absolutely imperitive in that situation that you take control. You dont have to yell at them, but little things you can do to let them know that you are in charge, right from the start. Example - you're in the paddock getting in the car and he's hyped up, megadeth in the cd player, ready ready ready to go - take some time getting in the car, ask him if he's ready before you get in, and turn of the radio when you do. Or if he's really pushing the car hard on cold tires, immediately ask him to come into the pits. When he realizes he's losing track time, he will listen pretty quickly. Be firm in your directions - dont make suggestions, tell him to do something - its not really a question anyways. If he repeatedly doesnt listen, bring him in.
And approach i like is one corner at a time - as you start building speed in one section, things can get very interesting in the next section if you do not modify your line or approach. So build up... that by the end of the day saturday he's got the whole track etched in memory and what to do. Then you can just work on fine tuning.
Also, its very important to praise your students - let them konw waht they are doing well, so that increases their confidence. Instead of saying "you did xxx wrong, jackass!", you say "well next time i'd like for us to work on xxx, but you were doing xxx very well, so lets keep that up".
Hope this helps.
RJ
[B]I realize that every now and then you're going to find some 21 year old hotshoe who already knows everything. The challenge there will be to rein him/her in before they have an off. Any suggestions on how to do this without completely breaking their spirit?[/B][/QUOTE]
It is absolutely imperitive in that situation that you take control. You dont have to yell at them, but little things you can do to let them know that you are in charge, right from the start. Example - you're in the paddock getting in the car and he's hyped up, megadeth in the cd player, ready ready ready to go - take some time getting in the car, ask him if he's ready before you get in, and turn of the radio when you do. Or if he's really pushing the car hard on cold tires, immediately ask him to come into the pits. When he realizes he's losing track time, he will listen pretty quickly. Be firm in your directions - dont make suggestions, tell him to do something - its not really a question anyways. If he repeatedly doesnt listen, bring him in.
And approach i like is one corner at a time - as you start building speed in one section, things can get very interesting in the next section if you do not modify your line or approach. So build up... that by the end of the day saturday he's got the whole track etched in memory and what to do. Then you can just work on fine tuning.
Also, its very important to praise your students - let them konw waht they are doing well, so that increases their confidence. Instead of saying "you did xxx wrong, jackass!", you say "well next time i'd like for us to work on xxx, but you were doing xxx very well, so lets keep that up".
Hope this helps.
RJ
| sdecker | 01-13-2004 07:43 PM |
Thank you, kind sir. Good info.
Bump for anyone else...
Bump for anyone else...
| Penguinking | 01-13-2004 11:24 PM |
another trick i've learned that works (as a student, not an instructor) is that when the instructor uses hand motions along with voice commands it really helps those "stubborn" ones to get the message.
like when you say "brake" and they don't brake, u put your hand out in front of you like you're about to push something and slowly push your hand forward - helped me to learn a firm but not upsetting brake application. similarily slowly pulling your hand back to simulate a gradual lift off the brake, not a sudden lift that will upset the suspension.
the biggest one is probably the tunnel vision: not seeing ahead of you, not noticing the corner workers, etc. what one of my instructors did was take his hand and literally stretch his arm out each time to show me where the corner workers were. the visual aid helped alot more than just "telling".
anyways, i one day hope to become an instructor. i remember the first time i went on a track, and the look in my eye was that of absolute joy. it was a wonderful feeling - and it made me understand why instructors do what they do - its so rewarding to see someone who knows nothing go out and learn "the line" and all sorts of things about driving all in one weekend.
btw, the free tshirts and track time are also a cool bonus :p
like when you say "brake" and they don't brake, u put your hand out in front of you like you're about to push something and slowly push your hand forward - helped me to learn a firm but not upsetting brake application. similarily slowly pulling your hand back to simulate a gradual lift off the brake, not a sudden lift that will upset the suspension.
the biggest one is probably the tunnel vision: not seeing ahead of you, not noticing the corner workers, etc. what one of my instructors did was take his hand and literally stretch his arm out each time to show me where the corner workers were. the visual aid helped alot more than just "telling".
anyways, i one day hope to become an instructor. i remember the first time i went on a track, and the look in my eye was that of absolute joy. it was a wonderful feeling - and it made me understand why instructors do what they do - its so rewarding to see someone who knows nothing go out and learn "the line" and all sorts of things about driving all in one weekend.
btw, the free tshirts and track time are also a cool bonus :p
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 06:56 AM |
Robert -- do you want the information on the upcoming BMWCCA school at Road Atlanta? I can probably get you in *wink wink*. No seriously, we need more Subarus there, man. Come on out.
Sign up for members begins in a few days and non-members a week after that. They fill up QUICK so you have to jump on it.
LMK...
Scott
Sign up for members begins in a few days and non-members a week after that. They fill up QUICK so you have to jump on it.
LMK...
Scott
| hillman | 01-14-2004 09:51 AM |
[quote]
Its also hard knowing you're putting your life in someone else's hands.
[/quote]
Since you're already a teacher, and familiar with and probably good at, recognizing students' needs and figuring an appropriate way to communicate to them, this is probably going to be the biggest adjustment for you.
No one is going to die in your classroom, but it's a possibility at 140mph. Make sure you can really handle that thought creeping into your head. My first instructor ever tried to grab the wheel out of my hands the first time I got loose... which only succeeded in freaking me out, and guaranteeing we'd spin off.
I've done a little race track instructing, and a lot of Solo2 instructing... at least partly because of this. I'm not quite "stupid enough" I guess, to borrow a line from an earlier post, to hop in with a stranger and go low triple digits very often.
If you want to work up to it, instructing in a Solo2 environment is much harder, and less dangerous. There are no straightaways, and the corners aren't even easy to see. If you can't quickly and accurately communicate to the driver, it just won't work. We have an annual event in conjunction with an automaker, in which people off-the-street get a brief classroom session, 1 ride with an instructor, and then 3 supervised runs behind the wheel. It's instructor boot-camp, but fun... if nerve-racking.
There's also a mailing list for similiar discussion; [email][email�protected][/email]
I always make a checklist, in my head or sometimes on paper, of all the skills I want to check. Looking ahead, noticing workers, when the throttle opens coming out of a corner, etc. Then, as mentioned, I can go down the list and mention the items done well, and those that need work. I try to always find at least one done well.
Its also hard knowing you're putting your life in someone else's hands.
[/quote]
Since you're already a teacher, and familiar with and probably good at, recognizing students' needs and figuring an appropriate way to communicate to them, this is probably going to be the biggest adjustment for you.
No one is going to die in your classroom, but it's a possibility at 140mph. Make sure you can really handle that thought creeping into your head. My first instructor ever tried to grab the wheel out of my hands the first time I got loose... which only succeeded in freaking me out, and guaranteeing we'd spin off.
I've done a little race track instructing, and a lot of Solo2 instructing... at least partly because of this. I'm not quite "stupid enough" I guess, to borrow a line from an earlier post, to hop in with a stranger and go low triple digits very often.
If you want to work up to it, instructing in a Solo2 environment is much harder, and less dangerous. There are no straightaways, and the corners aren't even easy to see. If you can't quickly and accurately communicate to the driver, it just won't work. We have an annual event in conjunction with an automaker, in which people off-the-street get a brief classroom session, 1 ride with an instructor, and then 3 supervised runs behind the wheel. It's instructor boot-camp, but fun... if nerve-racking.
There's also a mailing list for similiar discussion; [email][email�protected][/email]
I always make a checklist, in my head or sometimes on paper, of all the skills I want to check. Looking ahead, noticing workers, when the throttle opens coming out of a corner, etc. Then, as mentioned, I can go down the list and mention the items done well, and those that need work. I try to always find at least one done well.
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 10:11 AM |
Thanks, Hillman! Again, good info.
I don't think I will have any issues with being in the passenger seat, although there's really only one way for me to find out.
If I end up being gun shy, I'll think about doing some Solo 2 work, but then again I'm probably not qualified to do that.
Good ideas everyone on the checklists. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I may end up doing some instruction this year if they certify me.
Thanks!
Scott
I don't think I will have any issues with being in the passenger seat, although there's really only one way for me to find out.
If I end up being gun shy, I'll think about doing some Solo 2 work, but then again I'm probably not qualified to do that.
Good ideas everyone on the checklists. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I may end up doing some instruction this year if they certify me.
Thanks!
Scott
| Ryan | 01-14-2004 10:19 AM |
Oh, forgot.... motion sickness. You will get it as an instructor. Your doctor can prescribe a patch to wear on your neck, some friends of mine have had success with them - some use 1/2 of a patch at a time.
I need to get on that before VIR next month, i was ready to hurl once my student started picking up speed down the rollercoaster.
I need to get on that before VIR next month, i was ready to hurl once my student started picking up speed down the rollercoaster.
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 10:24 AM |
See, I never would have thought of that. I'm not prone to motion sickness at all, but I can see where it might become an issue as an instructor. Thank you again...
That's why I love Nabisco...
Scott
That's why I love Nabisco...
Scott
| Penguinking | 01-14-2004 11:17 AM |
Scott,
thanks for the offer, i'd love to finally try road atlanta. once again, ill hafta see if i'm available that weeknd to come out and drive. one thing, i'm not in a subaru anymore - that car got totalled in october when some schmuck decided to pull out in front of me when it was my green light and :furious: ...long story short, it was his fault and i'm still bitter over it. if you could email me the info [email][email�protected][/email] that'd be great.
if i can't drive, then maybe i could get a few ride-alongs? :D
Robert
thanks for the offer, i'd love to finally try road atlanta. once again, ill hafta see if i'm available that weeknd to come out and drive. one thing, i'm not in a subaru anymore - that car got totalled in october when some schmuck decided to pull out in front of me when it was my green light and :furious: ...long story short, it was his fault and i'm still bitter over it. if you could email me the info [email][email�protected][/email] that'd be great.
if i can't drive, then maybe i could get a few ride-alongs? :D
Robert
| enduroshark | 01-14-2004 11:20 AM |
Scott,
I think it's a great idea for you to instruct.
From my experience:
It is a lot of work. You do get free/cheap track time, but that is secondary and you really almost never get as much track time as when you are paying for it.
Teaching skills are essential. Even more than being fast, etc. You have to know how the human mind learns new things. You develop the vocabulary and hand motions and technique and practice helps a lot. You have to stay on top of things and be able to anticipate. Mentally it is pretty challenging because you are not controlling the car, but you need to know what the reaction will be to every input even before the driver knows and be able to tell them how to adjust, if necessary.
The main thing is that you have to like instructing. Like I said, the track time ends up being a by-product. If you are not going to have fun instructing and riding with new drivers, then it probably won't be worth the hassle for the track time.
I can give you a bunch of other tips. I've taken some excellent HPDE instructor courses and they have been very helpful to me.
I know that the Peachtree BMWCCA has one once or more a year and I bet it is worth your while.
I'll end up telling you that it is pretty damn cool when you have someone that has never been to a track before and you get to see how they improve and how they get hooked right there because of how much they learned about them and their cars and how much fun they had because of you. Or when you have someone that is already pretty fast, but you ride with them and give them one or two tips for a specific corner or a specific aspect and they get it and they improve because of it.
I think you'll really like it.
I think it's a great idea for you to instruct.
From my experience:
It is a lot of work. You do get free/cheap track time, but that is secondary and you really almost never get as much track time as when you are paying for it.
Teaching skills are essential. Even more than being fast, etc. You have to know how the human mind learns new things. You develop the vocabulary and hand motions and technique and practice helps a lot. You have to stay on top of things and be able to anticipate. Mentally it is pretty challenging because you are not controlling the car, but you need to know what the reaction will be to every input even before the driver knows and be able to tell them how to adjust, if necessary.
The main thing is that you have to like instructing. Like I said, the track time ends up being a by-product. If you are not going to have fun instructing and riding with new drivers, then it probably won't be worth the hassle for the track time.
I can give you a bunch of other tips. I've taken some excellent HPDE instructor courses and they have been very helpful to me.
I know that the Peachtree BMWCCA has one once or more a year and I bet it is worth your while.
I'll end up telling you that it is pretty damn cool when you have someone that has never been to a track before and you get to see how they improve and how they get hooked right there because of how much they learned about them and their cars and how much fun they had because of you. Or when you have someone that is already pretty fast, but you ride with them and give them one or two tips for a specific corner or a specific aspect and they get it and they improve because of it.
I think you'll really like it.
| Penguinking | 01-14-2004 11:25 AM |
i know that some of the instrutors i've been with have logged 1000's of miles solely on the track we're driving at - i also know ppl who are instructing within their 1st-2nd year of track driving. how much experience does it take to be an instructor? ie, when is the right time to approach someone and tell them your intentions of becoming an instructor?
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 11:38 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Penguinking [/i]
[B]i know that some of the instrutors i've been with have logged 1000's of miles solely on the track we're driving at - i also know ppl who are instructing within their 1st-2nd year of track driving. how much experience does it take to be an instructor? ie, when is the right time to approach someone and tell them your intentions of becoming an instructor? [/B][/QUOTE]
In my case, I do have a couple of thousand miles solely on the track I'm talking about -- Road Atlanta. I generally log about 250 track miles per weekend there.
I would not consider myself an instructor candidate for any other track at this point, since my knowledge is specialized to Road Atlanta. After a couple of trips to other tracks in the area, I would then probably open it up a little. But to be honest, I live right next door to Road Atlanta and there has been no real reason for me to get super-serious about other tracks yet.
I asked myself the same question as you. I decided to keep my mouth closed and let the situation come to me, as it did this past fall. Voila, I did good over the weekend and the instructor asked me about it...no indication from me that I *wanted* to do it. He just evaluated me and threw the question out. I was like, "Matter of fact, ...!!!"
Does that help?
[B]i know that some of the instrutors i've been with have logged 1000's of miles solely on the track we're driving at - i also know ppl who are instructing within their 1st-2nd year of track driving. how much experience does it take to be an instructor? ie, when is the right time to approach someone and tell them your intentions of becoming an instructor? [/B][/QUOTE]
In my case, I do have a couple of thousand miles solely on the track I'm talking about -- Road Atlanta. I generally log about 250 track miles per weekend there.
I would not consider myself an instructor candidate for any other track at this point, since my knowledge is specialized to Road Atlanta. After a couple of trips to other tracks in the area, I would then probably open it up a little. But to be honest, I live right next door to Road Atlanta and there has been no real reason for me to get super-serious about other tracks yet.
I asked myself the same question as you. I decided to keep my mouth closed and let the situation come to me, as it did this past fall. Voila, I did good over the weekend and the instructor asked me about it...no indication from me that I *wanted* to do it. He just evaluated me and threw the question out. I was like, "Matter of fact, ...!!!"
Does that help?
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 11:48 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by enduroshark [/i]
[B]Scott,
I think it's a great idea for you to instruct.
The main thing is that you have to like instructing. Like I said, the track time ends up being a by-product. If you are not going to have fun instructing and riding with new drivers, then it probably won't be worth the hassle for the track time.
I can give you a bunch of other tips. I've taken some excellent HPDE instructor courses and they have been very helpful to me.
I know that the Peachtree BMWCCA has one once or more a year and I bet it is worth your while.
I'll end up telling you that it is pretty damn cool when you have someone that has never been to a track before and you get to see how they improve and how they get hooked right there because of how much they learned about them and their cars and how much fun they had because of you. Or when you have someone that is already pretty fast, but you ride with them and give them one or two tips for a specific corner or a specific aspect and they get it and they improve because of it.
I think you'll really like it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks for the encouragement. Hell Ony, you've been one of my instructors in the past. Do *you* think I have the right mentality? Like I said, I'm probably not ever going to be the downright fastest guy on the track, but I'll be very consistently pretty fast, if that makes sense. Is that your impression?
The whole 'light coming on' thing is one of the biggest joys ever. I've seen it time and time again in the classroom and I love it. Combine that with speed and cars...well, now that's just about as good as it can get, isn't it? :D
Scott
[B]Scott,
I think it's a great idea for you to instruct.
The main thing is that you have to like instructing. Like I said, the track time ends up being a by-product. If you are not going to have fun instructing and riding with new drivers, then it probably won't be worth the hassle for the track time.
I can give you a bunch of other tips. I've taken some excellent HPDE instructor courses and they have been very helpful to me.
I know that the Peachtree BMWCCA has one once or more a year and I bet it is worth your while.
I'll end up telling you that it is pretty damn cool when you have someone that has never been to a track before and you get to see how they improve and how they get hooked right there because of how much they learned about them and their cars and how much fun they had because of you. Or when you have someone that is already pretty fast, but you ride with them and give them one or two tips for a specific corner or a specific aspect and they get it and they improve because of it.
I think you'll really like it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks for the encouragement. Hell Ony, you've been one of my instructors in the past. Do *you* think I have the right mentality? Like I said, I'm probably not ever going to be the downright fastest guy on the track, but I'll be very consistently pretty fast, if that makes sense. Is that your impression?
The whole 'light coming on' thing is one of the biggest joys ever. I've seen it time and time again in the classroom and I love it. Combine that with speed and cars...well, now that's just about as good as it can get, isn't it? :D
Scott
| Penguinking | 01-14-2004 11:49 AM |
yeah- i've got about a 1000 miles at Roebling Road, and several hundred miles at various other tracks in texas. i was just wondering what my options are at this point - i want to get more involved somehow without diving in too deep. i think ill try to get some more track time in before i get serious about instructing. like you, Roebling is the one track i specialize in, so that'd be the only place i'd consider.
but lacking as much experience at other tracks, i was wondering if the time i put in at Roebling qualified me for the job
but lacking as much experience at other tracks, i was wondering if the time i put in at Roebling qualified me for the job
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 12:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Penguinking [/i]
[B]but lacking as much experience at other tracks, i was wondering if the time i put in at Roebling qualified me for the job [/B][/QUOTE]
Seat time is seat time to some degree...but if for example I were asked to instruct at Roebling I would very likely not do it. Of course you know all this already. At some point though, likely after you have several years of wheel-to-wheel racing under your belt, they will probably accept you regardless of your lack of specific track knowledge.
Maybe Ony or one of the other fine folks here can answer the question?
Scott
[B]but lacking as much experience at other tracks, i was wondering if the time i put in at Roebling qualified me for the job [/B][/QUOTE]
Seat time is seat time to some degree...but if for example I were asked to instruct at Roebling I would very likely not do it. Of course you know all this already. At some point though, likely after you have several years of wheel-to-wheel racing under your belt, they will probably accept you regardless of your lack of specific track knowledge.
Maybe Ony or one of the other fine folks here can answer the question?
Scott
| dknv | 01-14-2004 12:17 PM |
I should also point out its not always a 21-y/o hotshoe who may overdo it. One of my students was 50+, and he pushed his car hard. After a session where I was definately gripping the door handle for subconcious fear of my life, I took a hard look at his brakes - and then felt better about how fast he was going and how deep into the corner he went before braking. Looking at the equipment is now on my checklist of things to do before going out.
A tactic another instructor told me is to squeeze the person's arm or leg if some strong braking is needed. (You tell them ahead of time you might do this - same with grabbing the steering wheel, which you might find you'd have to do to save a situation.)
Some students will tend to watch their rear view and side mirrors, and when they see someone coming up on them they'll speed up or change their line to keep from getting passed. (Anybody have this experience? :rolleyes:
Tell them you'll monitor traffic (and make sure to turn the side mirror so you can see) so they can concentrate on the track and the line.
Instructing the student in feeling the balance of their car is important too. Unless they have been through a course already, they should start to think about what causes the weight shift from side to side, or from rear to front when braking. Teaching them to smooth this out will help them greatly.
All in all being an instructor can be a wonderfully valuable experience and the other benefit I've found is that it can teach me new things too.
A tactic another instructor told me is to squeeze the person's arm or leg if some strong braking is needed. (You tell them ahead of time you might do this - same with grabbing the steering wheel, which you might find you'd have to do to save a situation.)
Some students will tend to watch their rear view and side mirrors, and when they see someone coming up on them they'll speed up or change their line to keep from getting passed. (Anybody have this experience? :rolleyes:
Tell them you'll monitor traffic (and make sure to turn the side mirror so you can see) so they can concentrate on the track and the line.
Instructing the student in feeling the balance of their car is important too. Unless they have been through a course already, they should start to think about what causes the weight shift from side to side, or from rear to front when braking. Teaching them to smooth this out will help them greatly.
All in all being an instructor can be a wonderfully valuable experience and the other benefit I've found is that it can teach me new things too.
| hillman | 01-14-2004 04:50 PM |
[quote]
Oh, forgot.... motion sickness. You will get it as an instructor.
[/quote]
Ironically, I get motion-sick riding in cars on the street... especially softly spring ones, but rarely if ever on track.
[quote]
The main thing is that you have to like instructing.
[/quote]
Absolutely. If you don't like it, it won't be worthwhile and you probably won't be any good at it either.
Oh, forgot.... motion sickness. You will get it as an instructor.
[/quote]
Ironically, I get motion-sick riding in cars on the street... especially softly spring ones, but rarely if ever on track.
[quote]
The main thing is that you have to like instructing.
[/quote]
Absolutely. If you don't like it, it won't be worthwhile and you probably won't be any good at it either.
| 4porsh | 01-14-2004 08:21 PM |
Enduro Shark is right on!
The best tip I can give you is to stay ahead of the student, and when that student starts to make 2-3 little mistakes in a row, immediately tell the student to slow down, calm down and refocuse. Tell them when they hit all the marks at the new slower speed then you will let them build speed from there.
Good luck,
Joe
BMWCCA L.A.
[url]www.bmwclubla.org[/url]
[url]www.drivingconcepts.com[/url]
The best tip I can give you is to stay ahead of the student, and when that student starts to make 2-3 little mistakes in a row, immediately tell the student to slow down, calm down and refocuse. Tell them when they hit all the marks at the new slower speed then you will let them build speed from there.
Good luck,
Joe
BMWCCA L.A.
[url]www.bmwclubla.org[/url]
[url]www.drivingconcepts.com[/url]
| sdecker | 01-14-2004 08:23 PM |
Excellent advice, Joe. I take it that you are a BMWCCA instructor, right? Would you mind shedding a little light on the instructor training program, assuming you have been through it?
Thanks!
Scott
Thanks!
Scott
| Paisan | 01-15-2004 11:31 AM |
It is both rewarding (seeing students do well, free track time) and draining (no free "hang out" time, working all day) so it's a double edged sword. But definitely worth it. I'm actually going to instructor training in Feb with NASA-VA and will be instructing at VIR and probably most NASA-NE and NASA-VA events. :)
-mike
-mike
| Paisan | 01-15-2004 11:31 AM |
Also anyone know what requirements BMWCCA makes on instructors? I run with BMWCCA often and would love to instruct with them as well.
-mike
-mike
| sdecker | 01-15-2004 11:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Paisan [/i]
[B]Also anyone know what requirements BMWCCA makes on instructors? I run with BMWCCA often and would love to instruct with them as well.
-mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Hehe, that's what I'm trying to find out as well...bump for 4Porsh!
[B]Also anyone know what requirements BMWCCA makes on instructors? I run with BMWCCA often and would love to instruct with them as well.
-mike [/B][/QUOTE]
Hehe, that's what I'm trying to find out as well...bump for 4Porsh!
| 4porsh | 01-15-2004 12:06 PM |
This is how it works in L.A.
I went to every track event and worked my way up(d-c-b-a), then stayed fast and consistent in A group until a few instructors nominated me to be an instructor. Then a few of the chief instructors rode with me and asked me to talk him around the course while hammering. I then received a call to instruct the next track event at Las Vegas Speedway. I had to learn the track quick, since I had not been there before. You get some practice laps before the school starts.
We are having a training session at ButtonWillow in April, but you really learn to communicate with each individual student on the track quickly.
So you guys and gals that want to be instructors just need to put in the time at the track, be SMOOTH, fast, and hit all your marks every time. You will be noticed.
Good luck and see you at the track,
---4porsh---
Joe
[url]www.jmcphotos.com[/url]
I went to every track event and worked my way up(d-c-b-a), then stayed fast and consistent in A group until a few instructors nominated me to be an instructor. Then a few of the chief instructors rode with me and asked me to talk him around the course while hammering. I then received a call to instruct the next track event at Las Vegas Speedway. I had to learn the track quick, since I had not been there before. You get some practice laps before the school starts.
We are having a training session at ButtonWillow in April, but you really learn to communicate with each individual student on the track quickly.
So you guys and gals that want to be instructors just need to put in the time at the track, be SMOOTH, fast, and hit all your marks every time. You will be noticed.
Good luck and see you at the track,
---4porsh---
Joe
[url]www.jmcphotos.com[/url]
| sdecker | 01-16-2004 07:22 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 4porsh [/i]
[B]This is how it works in L.A.
I went to every track event and worked my way up(d-c-b-a), then stayed fast and consistent in A group until a few instructors nominated me to be an instructor. Then a few of the chief instructors rode with me and asked me to talk him around the course while hammering. I then received a call to instruct the next track event at Las Vegas Speedway. I had to learn the track quick, since I had not been there before. You get some practice laps before the school starts.
We are having a training session at ButtonWillow in April, but you really learn to communicate with each individual student on the track quickly.
So you guys and gals that want to be instructors just need to put in the time at the track, be SMOOTH, fast, and hit all your marks every time. You will be noticed.
Good luck and see you at the track,
---4porsh---
Joe
[url]www.jmcphotos.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks, Joe! We appreciate it.
[B]This is how it works in L.A.
I went to every track event and worked my way up(d-c-b-a), then stayed fast and consistent in A group until a few instructors nominated me to be an instructor. Then a few of the chief instructors rode with me and asked me to talk him around the course while hammering. I then received a call to instruct the next track event at Las Vegas Speedway. I had to learn the track quick, since I had not been there before. You get some practice laps before the school starts.
We are having a training session at ButtonWillow in April, but you really learn to communicate with each individual student on the track quickly.
So you guys and gals that want to be instructors just need to put in the time at the track, be SMOOTH, fast, and hit all your marks every time. You will be noticed.
Good luck and see you at the track,
---4porsh---
Joe
[url]www.jmcphotos.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks, Joe! We appreciate it.
| enduroshark | 01-18-2004 02:20 AM |
I think that you have the right attitude for the job.
Like I said, it's not about being the fastest driver as much as it is about being good at explaining how to do things (and why).
The key thing is to have enough experience to be able to anticipate the result of your student's action and be able to give feedback to the student about it riight then. As in "you went early into the corner, so this is what we'll have to do now to exit..." etc.
I think a lot of instructors have had the experience of saying "DON'T LIFT!!!!!" a split second too late.
;)
As for HOW to instruct, there are different styles. The main thing is to treat everyone like a customer that is there to have fun and to use possitive feedback. I use my hands and lots of repetition, since new drivers are using all their concentration just to know which way to go, so there has to be a lot of repetition, etc. While someone with a lot of experience can drive the track at speed and have concentration left over to check out the people in the stands, spot insects by the side of the track, etc, the new driver can't even hear their motor bouncing off the rev limiter.
In my experience, women are the best students at the track.
Scott, if you decide to do this, we can go over what I've learned through the few years I've been doing it. I got the invitation for the BMWCCA event in March, but we have two race weekends that month and I don't think I'm going to spend 3 weekends in March at the track. I'll get in touch when I get back from Taiwan next week.
Like I said, it's not about being the fastest driver as much as it is about being good at explaining how to do things (and why).
The key thing is to have enough experience to be able to anticipate the result of your student's action and be able to give feedback to the student about it riight then. As in "you went early into the corner, so this is what we'll have to do now to exit..." etc.
I think a lot of instructors have had the experience of saying "DON'T LIFT!!!!!" a split second too late.
;)
As for HOW to instruct, there are different styles. The main thing is to treat everyone like a customer that is there to have fun and to use possitive feedback. I use my hands and lots of repetition, since new drivers are using all their concentration just to know which way to go, so there has to be a lot of repetition, etc. While someone with a lot of experience can drive the track at speed and have concentration left over to check out the people in the stands, spot insects by the side of the track, etc, the new driver can't even hear their motor bouncing off the rev limiter.
In my experience, women are the best students at the track.
Scott, if you decide to do this, we can go over what I've learned through the few years I've been doing it. I got the invitation for the BMWCCA event in March, but we have two race weekends that month and I don't think I'm going to spend 3 weekends in March at the track. I'll get in touch when I get back from Taiwan next week.
| sdecker | 01-18-2004 09:01 AM |
Cool -- thanks Ony!
| IXLR8 | 01-18-2004 09:13 AM |
One important thing not already mentioned (that as a teacher you undoubtedly know already, but it applies here as well) is that it's important to keep on learning yourself...
Take every opportunity to improve your instructing skills. Each student learns differently, some more differently than others. No one method or approach can work for them all. Take advantage of every chance to ride with other instructors (either in instructor sessions, or if possible, in the car with a student... some organizations permit this for rookie instructors...). Go to the clinics, listen to the "standard talk" veteran instructors use to navigate a student around your home track... If you have in-car video/audio of your own instructed runs as a student with instructors you thought helped you, go back and replay/review them, paying particular attention to how he/she got you to do what they wanted. (i.e. what words worked, when were they said, what exactly did they tell you to look at/for, etc.)
Bottom line, once you decide to become an instructor, that's not the top of the pyramid, but rather the bottom of the next one... keep learning... you may well find that your own driving improves as you look for new ways to help others...
Good luck.
Take every opportunity to improve your instructing skills. Each student learns differently, some more differently than others. No one method or approach can work for them all. Take advantage of every chance to ride with other instructors (either in instructor sessions, or if possible, in the car with a student... some organizations permit this for rookie instructors...). Go to the clinics, listen to the "standard talk" veteran instructors use to navigate a student around your home track... If you have in-car video/audio of your own instructed runs as a student with instructors you thought helped you, go back and replay/review them, paying particular attention to how he/she got you to do what they wanted. (i.e. what words worked, when were they said, what exactly did they tell you to look at/for, etc.)
Bottom line, once you decide to become an instructor, that's not the top of the pyramid, but rather the bottom of the next one... keep learning... you may well find that your own driving improves as you look for new ways to help others...
Good luck.
| sdecker | 01-18-2004 09:29 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by IXLR8 [/i]
[B]One important thing not already mentioned (that as a teacher you undoubtedly know already, but it applies here as well) is that it's important to keep on learning yourself...
Take every opportunity to improve your instructing skills. Each student learns differently, some more differently than others. No one method or approach can work for them all. Take advantage of every chance to ride with other instructors (either in instructor sessions, or if possible, in the car with a student... some organizations permit this for rookie instructors...). Go to the clinics, listen to the "standard talk" veteran instructors use to navigate a student around your home track... If you have in-car video/audio of your own instructed runs as a student with instructors you thought helped you, go back and replay/review them, paying particular attention to how he/she got you to do what they wanted. (i.e. what words worked, when were they said, what exactly did they tell you to look at/for, etc.)
Bottom line, once you decide to become an instructor, that's not the top of the pyramid, but rather the bottom of the next one... keep learning... you may well find that your own driving improves as you look for new ways to help others...
Good luck. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's awesome. Thanks a bunch to all of you.
I do have tapes going all the way back to day 1. I will review them and try to pick out effective words and gestures.
I agree with you that teaching a subject (any subject) actually improves your own knowledge in some ways. Constantly being subjected to questions and seeing the material dozens of times has a way of filling in knowledge gaps you didn't even realize you had...
Thanks again to everyone. This has been most enlightening.
Scott
[B]One important thing not already mentioned (that as a teacher you undoubtedly know already, but it applies here as well) is that it's important to keep on learning yourself...
Take every opportunity to improve your instructing skills. Each student learns differently, some more differently than others. No one method or approach can work for them all. Take advantage of every chance to ride with other instructors (either in instructor sessions, or if possible, in the car with a student... some organizations permit this for rookie instructors...). Go to the clinics, listen to the "standard talk" veteran instructors use to navigate a student around your home track... If you have in-car video/audio of your own instructed runs as a student with instructors you thought helped you, go back and replay/review them, paying particular attention to how he/she got you to do what they wanted. (i.e. what words worked, when were they said, what exactly did they tell you to look at/for, etc.)
Bottom line, once you decide to become an instructor, that's not the top of the pyramid, but rather the bottom of the next one... keep learning... you may well find that your own driving improves as you look for new ways to help others...
Good luck. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's awesome. Thanks a bunch to all of you.
I do have tapes going all the way back to day 1. I will review them and try to pick out effective words and gestures.
I agree with you that teaching a subject (any subject) actually improves your own knowledge in some ways. Constantly being subjected to questions and seeing the material dozens of times has a way of filling in knowledge gaps you didn't even realize you had...
Thanks again to everyone. This has been most enlightening.
Scott
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