| drivin scooburz | 05-24-2002 06:17 PM |
New spoiler design
1 Attachment(s)
This is a design that I made for my car. I created it in a 3d-modeling program called rhinoceros and have started development on a prototype model. It's modeled after the Legacy B4 Blitzen to keep the Subaru hbk style and look but it is more aggressive. I would love some feedback on my design. In about three weeks I will have pictures of the prototype on my car for a better look. Also if any of you people out their I would like to be some test subjects and review my spoiler it would only cost you a little more than the materials used to make it. (About 250 bucks) Thanx for your support. Please send all your replies to [email][email protected][/email].
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.performanceave.com[/url]
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.performanceave.com[/url]
| rge_wrx | 05-24-2002 06:34 PM |
Looks pretty cool.
But will it provide downforce? Are you planning on testing it and adjusting it once you've built a prototype? Just curious.
Nice effort, though. Very unique and very eye-catching. I like it a lot.
RGE
But will it provide downforce? Are you planning on testing it and adjusting it once you've built a prototype? Just curious.
Nice effort, though. Very unique and very eye-catching. I like it a lot.
RGE
| drivin scooburz | 05-24-2002 06:42 PM |
yeah it will, actaully a lot. I had to scrap some material choices because they wern't strong enough to keep it's shape under speed. The wing is 6 in high from the base to the top. Its 49 in wide and 6.5 inches long. Thats 319 square inches of surface positioned at a 15 degree angle for an estimated downforce of .65 lb/sq.in at 60 mph. These numbers have to be tested so there not really reliable but thats the scoop so far. Thanx for your e-mail.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
| rge_wrx | 05-24-2002 06:48 PM |
One thing I forgot...
Will it obscure your vision through the rearview?
I have noticed that a lot of the aftermarket wings and especially the OEM wing "lifters" obscure rearview vision tremendously.
RGE
Will it obscure your vision through the rearview?
I have noticed that a lot of the aftermarket wings and especially the OEM wing "lifters" obscure rearview vision tremendously.
RGE
| drivin scooburz | 05-24-2002 06:55 PM |
Well noting that myself. I measured the average hieght of the middle the a persons feild of vison through my legacy's rear windsheild. It averaged out to 6.456 in or 6.5 in. The spoiler in the middle will sit at about 1 in below that line because of the slant in the trunk. The spiler rises to 6 in at the sides well out of the field of vision of the average joe. So if your were i sticiler for getting a close look at the hotty in the rear view, the spoiler will only cut off lower part of her windsheild.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
| Rebellion | 05-24-2002 11:28 PM |
it'd look better if it was more like the B4... I dislike the ugly metal supports (in general though).
| sherifx | 05-25-2002 01:04 AM |
I would be willing to test it, provided the price is right and it fits the stock mounting holes. Personally (and you know I'll be honest with you), I think that the metal stands should be ditched in favor of something along the style of the zero-sports stock spoiler extentions (I hope this explains it). Additionally, the side portions which come down and almost touch the fenders should be somewhat angled like this:
.._
/_|
hope that looks alright. keep me posted either via email or PM
sherif
.._
/_|
hope that looks alright. keep me posted either via email or PM
sherif
| Kostamojen | 05-25-2002 02:07 AM |
Interesting... Looks like it is designed to fit most any Impreza or legacy sedan though, right?
| Lightning Jack | 05-25-2002 12:44 PM |
i like the design still i want to see how it look on the car it self
as long it keep my car on the road it's good
as long it keep my car on the road it's good
| Samirr76 | 05-25-2002 06:18 PM |
looks like a pterodactyl :lol:
sorry :p
sorry :p
| imprezakid | 05-25-2002 06:24 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Samirr76 [/i]
[B]looks like a pterodactyl :lol:
sorry :p [/B][/QUOTE]agreed:lol:
[B]looks like a pterodactyl :lol:
sorry :p [/B][/QUOTE]agreed:lol:
| rge_wrx | 05-27-2002 11:04 AM |
Despite other's comments to the negative, I like the wing exactly as is. To be honest, I wouldn't put one on my car, though, for the simple fact that the style is not what I'm going for. But, having said that, I think your design is unique and refreshing compared to what's already on the market. I think you should make it. Good luck.
RGE
RGE
| Dr Ken | 05-27-2002 01:18 PM |
Johann,
I like the looks, the aesthetic is great ! I especially like the polyhedral Gull-look. I gave your design some thought, and I wonder if you might like to consider a few thoughts before prototyping.
Think robustness. I think the erratic air forces are going to be really harsh on its svelte profile...remember that's messy air coming down off the steep back window. Images of smoke trail studies show resumption of laminar flow only above 11-12 inches above the hood. Beneath this level non-laminar flow means very inefficient use of a wing (effectively a stalled plank). This makes for potentially very erratic air and for the need for a very robust design.
That being said, I think a cantilevered scheme is inherently difficult, albeit quite nice on the eye. Of course, simply advising to space the vertical supports further out is defeating the ideal of the cantilever, however this could help the tendency of the structure to flap when it gets some wind across it. It could also minimize similar forces as the car rides over bumps and stuff.
As beautiful as it is, I only say all this to minimize potential harm and maybe be of some help to you in making a cool design. And as an amateur, my suspicion is that, currently, the prototype will show the tendency of the cantilevered segments will begin to [B]Twist[/B] harmonically, sending the angle of attack up-down-up-down-up-down...each time causing [B]BIG[/B] forces.
- Ken
I like the looks, the aesthetic is great ! I especially like the polyhedral Gull-look. I gave your design some thought, and I wonder if you might like to consider a few thoughts before prototyping.
Think robustness. I think the erratic air forces are going to be really harsh on its svelte profile...remember that's messy air coming down off the steep back window. Images of smoke trail studies show resumption of laminar flow only above 11-12 inches above the hood. Beneath this level non-laminar flow means very inefficient use of a wing (effectively a stalled plank). This makes for potentially very erratic air and for the need for a very robust design.
That being said, I think a cantilevered scheme is inherently difficult, albeit quite nice on the eye. Of course, simply advising to space the vertical supports further out is defeating the ideal of the cantilever, however this could help the tendency of the structure to flap when it gets some wind across it. It could also minimize similar forces as the car rides over bumps and stuff.
As beautiful as it is, I only say all this to minimize potential harm and maybe be of some help to you in making a cool design. And as an amateur, my suspicion is that, currently, the prototype will show the tendency of the cantilevered segments will begin to [B]Twist[/B] harmonically, sending the angle of attack up-down-up-down-up-down...each time causing [B]BIG[/B] forces.
- Ken
| sherifx | 05-27-2002 03:32 PM |
Dr. Ken... I think that was one of the most informative posts in dress up and style I've ever seen...
drivin scooburz & Dr. Ken I have a few very small ideas that I think would compliment the design a bit and aid in resolving any potential conflicts that Dr. Ken mentioned. I'll post pix later... gotta head out to DEMF for the last day (Detroit Electronic Music Festival),... 3 years goin' strong!
sherif
drivin scooburz & Dr. Ken I have a few very small ideas that I think would compliment the design a bit and aid in resolving any potential conflicts that Dr. Ken mentioned. I'll post pix later... gotta head out to DEMF for the last day (Detroit Electronic Music Festival),... 3 years goin' strong!
sherif
| drivin scooburz | 05-28-2002 12:43 AM |
Well I havef taken what most of you have said about the mounts and franky there is really nothing that i can do. The aluminum mounts are stronger, easyer to make and they are adustible. Most of the spoilers that are completely made from out piece are usally not adustible or they are really expencive because their metal mounts are covered. It is extremely hard to create something so complex with a drill the contours over a 3d shape to produce a copy if it in some material. I have only one way of creating this and i'm doing the best that i can. After i test the right angle of attack for this spoiler then i could make a non-adustible one piece fiberglass verson for all you that are opposed to this look. It would be way cheeper to make and sell, but remember, i am only 17, i have limited funding and conections to create a perfect spoiler right off the bat. This design is srickly from my head and is base on a 12th grade education, the prototype will still be made the way it is but if you really are interested in having the designed changed then maybe you can plegde a little money my so i can us more advanced maufacuring machines and produce for you a custom spoiler to your liking. Thanx
Johann Ave'
Johann Ave'
| ATX25RS | 05-28-2002 01:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by drivin scooburz [/i]
[B]Well I havef taken what most of you have said about the mounts and franky there is really nothing that i can do. The aluminum mounts are stronger, easyer to make and they are adustible. Most of the spoilers that are completely made from out piece are usally not adustible or they are really expencive because their metal mounts are covered. It is extremely hard to create something so complex with a drill the contours over a 3d shape to produce a copy if it in some material. I have only one way of creating this and i'm doing the best that i can. After i test the right angle of attack for this spoiler then i could make a non-adustible one piece fiberglass verson for all you that are opposed to this look. It would be way cheeper to make and sell, but remember, i am only 17, i have limited funding and conections to create a perfect spoiler right off the bat. This design is srickly from my head and is base on a 12th grade education, the prototype will still be made the way it is but if you really are interested in having the designed changed then maybe you can plegde a little money my so i can us more advanced maufacuring machines and produce for you a custom spoiler to your liking. Thanx
Johann Ave' [/B][/QUOTE]
sweet...so young and so talented:D.....i am totally serious you are doing a better job designing a spoiler, than most of us on here...all you have to say is that the metal mounts are essential because they are functional....that floats my boat...and i still like the design....so would it be possible to fit this to an impreza? gc8 preferably...:D
Andres
:devil: keep us informed:devil:
[B]Well I havef taken what most of you have said about the mounts and franky there is really nothing that i can do. The aluminum mounts are stronger, easyer to make and they are adustible. Most of the spoilers that are completely made from out piece are usally not adustible or they are really expencive because their metal mounts are covered. It is extremely hard to create something so complex with a drill the contours over a 3d shape to produce a copy if it in some material. I have only one way of creating this and i'm doing the best that i can. After i test the right angle of attack for this spoiler then i could make a non-adustible one piece fiberglass verson for all you that are opposed to this look. It would be way cheeper to make and sell, but remember, i am only 17, i have limited funding and conections to create a perfect spoiler right off the bat. This design is srickly from my head and is base on a 12th grade education, the prototype will still be made the way it is but if you really are interested in having the designed changed then maybe you can plegde a little money my so i can us more advanced maufacuring machines and produce for you a custom spoiler to your liking. Thanx
Johann Ave' [/B][/QUOTE]
sweet...so young and so talented:D.....i am totally serious you are doing a better job designing a spoiler, than most of us on here...all you have to say is that the metal mounts are essential because they are functional....that floats my boat...and i still like the design....so would it be possible to fit this to an impreza? gc8 preferably...:D
Andres
:devil: keep us informed:devil:
| Dr Ken | 05-28-2002 11:16 AM |
I agree with you ATX. Great work, Johann!
- Ken
- Ken
| drivin scooburz | 05-28-2002 10:48 PM |
hey thanx for the nice comps. And to answer your qusetion about fit. If you can get me the measurments of you trunk and where you want the mounts to sit i can make you a couston spoiler. I don't care about working to make it because the more fit that i can get the more chances i have of selling them So please if your interested in ether testing or just wanting one of these spoilers send me your specs. I can create a spioler (primed and painted) in about three weeks. Thanx
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
| dojoromeo | 05-28-2002 11:05 PM |
legacy
as you all know, i have a 97 Legacy GT
i want a cool spoiler that fits the factory holes.
i'm not real big on this design Johann has come up with, but he did a damn nice job on it, and i really like it. It's not the look i'm going for on my car, but god damn guy, NICE WORK.
maybe you can keep coming up with other ideas, making other spoilers, and maybe some day be as big as the BIG compaines.
I would probably buy from you, with some sort of warranty.
i want a cool spoiler that fits the factory holes.
i'm not real big on this design Johann has come up with, but he did a damn nice job on it, and i really like it. It's not the look i'm going for on my car, but god damn guy, NICE WORK.
maybe you can keep coming up with other ideas, making other spoilers, and maybe some day be as big as the BIG compaines.
I would probably buy from you, with some sort of warranty.
| ATX25RS | 05-29-2002 01:03 AM |
okay sweet i will try to get you measurements manana...quick question, do the side have mounts too?...i wouldnt want any "flapping" going on:D
andres
andres
| drivin scooburz | 06-20-2002 05:33 AM |
update
hey all, i got most of the spoiler done. The aluminum mounts amd a protoype of the wing are done. i will have pictures tomorrow. I was wondering if any of you people would be able to give me advice on what kind of material that i should use for the final wing. I've thought of carbon fiber but the shape of the wing might make it hard if its hand layed. Fiber glass is the same thing and it is weaker then carbon fiber. I have been looking into urythane and sence the wing is about a inch thick it would be able to withstand about 350 pounds of force. It would also be way easier to produce in mass numbers. Hit me back with you thoughts.
thank you
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
thank you
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
| AlanTheWoo | 06-20-2002 09:32 AM |
i'm interested in being a test subject.
=)
but i'm also interested in the program that you use to design the spoiler and wondering if that same program will do simulations? also, i was wondering how you actually manufactured the design into a prototype; do you have like some kind of injection molding access or similiar?
AlanTheWoo
[email][email protected][/email]
=)
but i'm also interested in the program that you use to design the spoiler and wondering if that same program will do simulations? also, i was wondering how you actually manufactured the design into a prototype; do you have like some kind of injection molding access or similiar?
AlanTheWoo
[email][email protected][/email]
| drivin scooburz | 06-20-2002 04:14 PM |
the process
The program that I use is called rhinoceros. It is a 3d rendering program that allows me to make virtually anything to exact specifications. The simulation program that I use is located at my town's local collage and I don't know the name of it. To shape the pieces and create them for real a prototype was made from a machine called a CNC machine. This is basically a drill that is computer programmed to fallow a path and cut out any design that I program it to do. It can simultaneously run in all three axes at the same time to cut a 2d or 3d path to a .0001 of an inch. Right now I'm using this machine to cut out custom speaker boxes for cars to hopefully make enough money to ether start to make the final product myself or pay somebody to do it for me. Ether way the prototype is a little ways into the future. If you want to check out what a CNC machine can do, go to my thread titled "custom Subaru Boxes" in the audio and security forum. Thank you for your interest.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
| drivin scooburz | 06-26-2002 07:15 PM |
we got a real spoiler made
We finally got hold of an ass load of bumpers for Subaru, Acura, dodge, Honda, and Mitsubishi. There are about 15 bumpers, side skirts sitting in my garage. We have taken measurements of the Subaru's (97 legacy, 98 legacy, 99 Impreza, 2002 2.5 RS, 2002 legacy, and the 2002 forester) I should have the final, to scale, body kits ready in about two weeks but in the mean time we already have two universal spoilers done and ready to go. E-mail me at [email][email protected][/email] for some pictures. If you want to see pictures of our latest project (speaker boxes) we are currently selling contracts for a custom Subaru box built to your car, speakers and any other system enhancing parts for 100 bucks on eBay. Thank you
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.Performanceave.com[/url]
I'll send you picture when i get back from work.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.Performanceave.com[/url]
I'll send you picture when i get back from work.
| drivin scooburz | 06-26-2002 07:16 PM |
we got a real spoiler made
We finally got hold of an ass load of bumpers for Subaru, Acura, dodge, Honda, and Mitsubishi. There are about 15 bumpers, side skirts sitting in my garage. We have taken measurements of the Subaru's (97 legacy, 98 legacy, 99 Impreza, 2002 2.5 RS, 2002 legacy, and the 2002 forester) I should have the final, to scale, body kits ready in about two weeks but in the mean time we already have two universal spoilers done and ready to go. E-mail me at [email][email protected][/email] for some pictures. If you want to see pictures of our latest project (speaker boxes) we are currently selling contracts for a custom Subaru box built to your car, speakers and any other system enhancing parts for 100 bucks on eBay. Thank you
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.Performanceave.com[/url]
I'll send you pictures when i get back from work.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.Performanceave.com[/url]
I'll send you pictures when i get back from work.
| drivin scooburz | 06-27-2002 12:18 AM |
look new pics!
1 Attachment(s)
hear are the pics of the real thing
| drivin scooburz | 06-27-2002 12:20 AM |
more
1 Attachment(s)
more
| drivin scooburz | 07-02-2002 02:17 PM |
the spoiler
This spoiler was constructed out of insulation foam, the densest foam I could find. We cut it out using a CNC (computer navigated cutter), this machine can shape any object to the .0001". The one that we used was at our school, because it could drop 24". We have one in my garage that can drop 7" but we use that for our speaker boxes. The aluminum mount was cut from a solid piece of aluminum using a more complex CNC machine at our school. We have this spoiler posted on our internet site [url]www.performanceave.com[/url] in the products section; we hope to sell the design and develop more. If anyone you have connections to any one who might be interested in purchasing the rights to this spoiler, please contact me at [email][email protected][/email] and I will personally contact them myself. Thank you for your incite.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.performanceave.com[/url]
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.performanceave.com[/url]
| Black2002WRX | 07-02-2002 08:02 PM |
Instead of changing the angle of the spoiler to get downforce have you considered giving it a wing shaped profile. That way it will still produce downforce and you could use different mounts.
| drivin scooburz | 07-02-2002 08:40 PM |
shaped spoiler
The wing has a shaped profile where it creates its own down force. It would produce 21.98 lb. of down force at a 0-degree angle so I have designed the mounts to be adjustable to 17 degrees for added force. I'm sure having a non-adjustable mount at the optimum street (not racing) angle could be fairly easy to do. Thank you for your comments.
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.performanceave.com[/url]
Johann Ave'
Bellingham Washington
[url]www.performanceave.com[/url]
| IMPREZA RALLY CAR | 07-03-2002 12:26 AM |
does look quite interesting. I don't know about the aerodynamics of that thing though cause of drag and stuff. Of course this is way down the line, but if u get the looks... get it to be functional too! hehe However, it looks kewl! Got the looks down pretty nicely! :) Go for the next step! :p
| Lightning Jack | 07-03-2002 09:19 AM |
i want to see how that wing look like on WRX :eek:
| stever | 07-04-2002 06:37 PM |
Just curious about how you managed to come up with 21.98 lbs. of downforce. That's an awful accurate number for a wing especially in such a turbulent area (ie. the rear deck of a sedan). Also, what speed is that measured at? Do you realize that a wing with such a thin profile will probably stall before you hit 17 degrees aoa?
There's a ton of other stuff to take into account too besides the turbulence. You're dealing with a 3-dimensional change in the onset flow. In reality, there's no accurate way to calculate the downforce without the car and it's not even realistic to base your design on wing-alone studies.
Just a few tips, I'm not attacking you ... I know you're 17. I did things like this when I was 17, but I did a bit more homework. I've seen this a lot in my work with F1 and IndyCars as well as with sedans. You could always build models and test them in a wind tunnel. We charge $11,000/day for tunnel time ... you bring the model.
Oh, and CNC doesn't stand for Computer Navigated Cutter ... it's Computer Numerical Control and you'll be hard pressed to get .0001" accuracy.
-Steve
I think this came off a bit harsh ... my apologies. :alien:
There's a ton of other stuff to take into account too besides the turbulence. You're dealing with a 3-dimensional change in the onset flow. In reality, there's no accurate way to calculate the downforce without the car and it's not even realistic to base your design on wing-alone studies.
Just a few tips, I'm not attacking you ... I know you're 17. I did things like this when I was 17, but I did a bit more homework. I've seen this a lot in my work with F1 and IndyCars as well as with sedans. You could always build models and test them in a wind tunnel. We charge $11,000/day for tunnel time ... you bring the model.
Oh, and CNC doesn't stand for Computer Navigated Cutter ... it's Computer Numerical Control and you'll be hard pressed to get .0001" accuracy.
-Steve
I think this came off a bit harsh ... my apologies. :alien:
| got rice? | 07-13-2002 03:38 AM |
hey stever is your wide body kit still in the making or you through with that.
| 128d | 07-13-2002 09:37 PM |
Its not really my style , however I will say it looks pretty damn cool.
| Bob O | 07-13-2002 10:07 PM |
Hey stever, I was about to make the same two comments about CNC and it's accuracy. :lol: Funny how things like that are always present in the mind.
The wing looks good, not my style but still good. I think, though, some of the things that Dr. Ken said about the loading of the cantilevered sides will likely cause you to have to refine the design (changing thickness, material, or support locations). That thin section area combined with the length of the cantilevered beam just doesn't look like it will hold up in the unpredictable, turbulent airflow you see behind a stock vehicle at speed (that's assuming race cars often have more refined airflow due to the rest of the car being tweaked as well). I can just see the fatigue related/vibration induced failures already. But that's why you build prototypes and test....and build prototypes...and test...and build prototypes...and test...etc (you get the idea :D ). Or you do more upfront design to eliminate some of the prototyping and testing. Whichever way you do it, make sure you are really sure of the strength of your design before you start selling it to the public. The last thing you want is a lawsuit because your wing broke on someones car, flew through the air and impaled someone, or caused an accident. Or just sell it with the standard aftermarket parts disclaimer :lol:
Bob
The wing looks good, not my style but still good. I think, though, some of the things that Dr. Ken said about the loading of the cantilevered sides will likely cause you to have to refine the design (changing thickness, material, or support locations). That thin section area combined with the length of the cantilevered beam just doesn't look like it will hold up in the unpredictable, turbulent airflow you see behind a stock vehicle at speed (that's assuming race cars often have more refined airflow due to the rest of the car being tweaked as well). I can just see the fatigue related/vibration induced failures already. But that's why you build prototypes and test....and build prototypes...and test...and build prototypes...and test...etc (you get the idea :D ). Or you do more upfront design to eliminate some of the prototyping and testing. Whichever way you do it, make sure you are really sure of the strength of your design before you start selling it to the public. The last thing you want is a lawsuit because your wing broke on someones car, flew through the air and impaled someone, or caused an accident. Or just sell it with the standard aftermarket parts disclaimer :lol:
Bob
| Sordid Philosopher | 07-14-2002 04:38 PM |
It is a nice looking wing but I have a couple of questions/comments. You said it has approx 30 lbs of downward force - at what speed? I'm not sure that's enough to make any difference to the WRX. The WRX has a Front to Rear weight distribution of 60:40. That means that there are approx 1860 lbs on the front axle and 1240 lbs on the rear axle (not including driver).
1860-1240 = 620 lbs difference (not very good).
You will need a lot more than 30 lbs downforce in the rear to make any difference at all for a functional wing.
I don't know what the weight distribution is for a driver inside the car (ie how much as a percentage is added to the front and how much to the rear).
Just thinking out loud...
1860-1240 = 620 lbs difference (not very good).
You will need a lot more than 30 lbs downforce in the rear to make any difference at all for a functional wing.
I don't know what the weight distribution is for a driver inside the car (ie how much as a percentage is added to the front and how much to the rear).
Just thinking out loud...
| NavyRSt | 07-14-2002 10:42 PM |
Why don't you post on NW region?
Are you going up to the meet on the 20th? Bring it with you if you are. It does look awesome for being the first one. I can understand how difficult it is to get some really good connections when you are still so young. Good luck though.
Brett
Brett
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