| craptastic99 | 12-14-2001 05:00 PM |
next year's subaru usa rally team drivers
I heard rumors that next year the driver lineup will change for Subaru's USA rally team. Anybody think they know who the new driver is gonna be?
| WagonMonster | 12-14-2001 05:33 PM |
Me :)
| Jon Bogert | 12-14-2001 05:36 PM |
Ramana. He's young, fast and looks good on camera. Just what they need to complement that old Brit. :lol:
| SubEd | 12-14-2001 05:47 PM |
^
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True dat! :lol: Get rid of that well-educated, smooth-talkin' VW-refugee Scheible!
j/k But Ramana did put quite a charge on at the end of the season!
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True dat! :lol: Get rid of that well-educated, smooth-talkin' VW-refugee Scheible!
j/k But Ramana did put quite a charge on at the end of the season!
| Subie Gal | 12-14-2001 10:02 PM |
i cant confirm nor deny hehehe but.. um.. yeah...
there will be changes...
;) say my inside sources ;)
it's all good!
Subaru will be back to conquer the rally roads at blazin blue speeds :D
rally on all!
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
there will be changes...
;) say my inside sources ;)
it's all good!
Subaru will be back to conquer the rally roads at blazin blue speeds :D
rally on all!
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Future Subaru Driver1 | 12-15-2001 12:28 AM |
well
i did notice Nat T Snow's car is for rent next season...what happened there??
| Subie Gal | 12-15-2001 11:27 AM |
yep!!
Nat is looking at investing in something a little more...
shall we say... a tad....
[i]FASTER[/i] and i wish him all the best!!
he's a very, very talented driver!!!
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
Nat is looking at investing in something a little more...
shall we say... a tad....
[i]FASTER[/i] and i wish him all the best!!
he's a very, very talented driver!!!
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| mykrrrr | 12-15-2001 12:49 PM |
So that means you're not co-driving with him next season Jamie???
-myk
-myk
| Tangmere | 12-15-2001 01:10 PM |
Yeah, wait and see what other WRC has-been is relegated to the US.
Mark
Mark
| dwx | 12-15-2001 02:07 PM |
a tad...is tad the operative word in that statement? :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]yep!!
Nat is looking at investing in something a little more...
shall we say... a tad....
[i]FASTER[/i] and i wish him all the best!!
he's a very, very talented driver!!!
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]yep!!
Nat is looking at investing in something a little more...
shall we say... a tad....
[i]FASTER[/i] and i wish him all the best!!
he's a very, very talented driver!!!
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
| 10th Warrior | 12-15-2001 02:17 PM |
[QUOTE]a tad...is tad the operative word in that statement?[/QUOTE]
it would seem so. maybe i should go up to chicago and check out the car ;)
it would seem so. maybe i should go up to chicago and check out the car ;)
| Dave_Clark | 12-15-2001 05:15 PM |
Uhh, no. A tad is just a word that means a little bit (understated by Jamie), not a preparation shop in Lake Zurich, Illinois.
Cascade Autosport in North Bend, Washington still prepares Nat's car.
And Jon, let's get down to brass tacks, here. Ramana is young, fast (enough), very tall, and is loaded ($$$$$). Just what they need to pay that old Brit's salary.;) Come on, you must know that that's the way things really work...:rolleyes:
mykyrr: That just means Jamie will be driving her OWN rally car next year!
You people read so much into things, sheesh!:D
Cascade Autosport in North Bend, Washington still prepares Nat's car.
And Jon, let's get down to brass tacks, here. Ramana is young, fast (enough), very tall, and is loaded ($$$$$). Just what they need to pay that old Brit's salary.;) Come on, you must know that that's the way things really work...:rolleyes:
mykyrr: That just means Jamie will be driving her OWN rally car next year!
You people read so much into things, sheesh!:D
| craptastic99 | 12-15-2001 05:17 PM |
my sources just told me that ramana got the job already. He beat out Pat Richard and Karl Scheible in a test by the prodrive guys...I cant confirm this stuff but my sources are good.
| Dave_Clark | 12-15-2001 05:29 PM |
$$$$$$$$$$$$$
| Thug | 12-15-2001 06:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DMS-USA [/i]
[B]$$$$$$$$$$$$$ [/B][/QUOTE]
ditto.
[B]$$$$$$$$$$$$$ [/B][/QUOTE]
ditto.
| Jon Bogert | 12-15-2001 06:05 PM |
Yeah, Prodrive has this thing called the AllStars or something like that. It's basically for obscenely rich people who fancy driving rally cars. Prodrive will take your check ("better just give us the account number--we'll do the rest, sir") put you in a car, teach you to drive, arrange travel, entries, lobster thermidor at service--whatever your obscenely rich heart desires...
| johnfelstead | 12-15-2001 06:32 PM |
Well, based on what Dave is saying (and he should know after all!!!) driving tallent wasnt the reason for the second driver choice.
What a shame Prodrive operate that way when they have an oportunity to support a really fast driver like Pat and maybe give him that little bit extra he needs to make it big time.
If that is the case, I wish Pat a huge amount of success next season. I hope he goes out there and kicks the **** out of them because thats just not right. :mad:
And yeh, Jamie will be driving her own car next year. I for one am chuffed to bits by the way she has gone about learning this sport. Building up experience by getting involved in rallycross, then TSD rallies (where i have been lucky to be in the hot seat on a couple) and then co-driving in club and pro-rally. Very smart Jamie.
I cant wait to see the little L fly next year. If i could get BA to sponsor me i would be there, sat in the co-drivers seat for sure, you wouldnt have a choice J. ;):lol:
What a shame Prodrive operate that way when they have an oportunity to support a really fast driver like Pat and maybe give him that little bit extra he needs to make it big time.
If that is the case, I wish Pat a huge amount of success next season. I hope he goes out there and kicks the **** out of them because thats just not right. :mad:
And yeh, Jamie will be driving her own car next year. I for one am chuffed to bits by the way she has gone about learning this sport. Building up experience by getting involved in rallycross, then TSD rallies (where i have been lucky to be in the hot seat on a couple) and then co-driving in club and pro-rally. Very smart Jamie.
I cant wait to see the little L fly next year. If i could get BA to sponsor me i would be there, sat in the co-drivers seat for sure, you wouldnt have a choice J. ;):lol:
| PVB | 12-15-2001 07:50 PM |
Ever feel like you've been swindled?
How unfortunate, It's quite obvious Pat is a much quicker driver, he was unable to fully prove it this year head to head, over the entire season. I hope this makes him even more motivated.
The bottome line i$ that they only need someone "fast enough" to win the championship, not the "fastest driver". Why pay someone $50k a year to drive, when you can find someone to PAY $50k to drive the car. If Pat can't run the entire series he is not a threat. Championships are often won on attendance.
If pat had backing to run the entire series I have no doubt he could win the U.S. championship.........with half the car of his opponets.
Although I have nothing against Lovell personally, I concider the 2001 championship bought and payed for, by Subaru.
Peter
:D
The bottome line i$ that they only need someone "fast enough" to win the championship, not the "fastest driver". Why pay someone $50k a year to drive, when you can find someone to PAY $50k to drive the car. If Pat can't run the entire series he is not a threat. Championships are often won on attendance.
If pat had backing to run the entire series I have no doubt he could win the U.S. championship.........with half the car of his opponets.
Although I have nothing against Lovell personally, I concider the 2001 championship bought and payed for, by Subaru.
Peter
:D
| Subie Gal | 12-15-2001 09:03 PM |
$Prodrive$
yep... i really... really hope Patrick goes out there and has much success....
it's all about the $$$.... not the talent....
aint that a shame????
even [b]IF[/b] you were faster than every other competitor when testing... :mad:
just... not... right...
good luck Pat!!!
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
oh and.. yep.. i'm building up my own Impreza....
u can see it's progression on my site... "build a rally car page"
it's all about the $$$.... not the talent....
aint that a shame????
even [b]IF[/b] you were faster than every other competitor when testing... :mad:
just... not... right...
good luck Pat!!!
j.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
oh and.. yep.. i'm building up my own Impreza....
u can see it's progression on my site... "build a rally car page"
| Dave_Clark | 12-15-2001 09:47 PM |
Hey, I'm not saying I know anything about it...
If Ramana did get the ride then he de$erve$ it. He really showed a lot of improvement this year and put in some excellent results. He's certainly fast enough to get the job done. He's young and I think he will continue to improve. It will be interesting to see if craptastic's sources are correct...
I also heard, mind you this is only a 2nd or 3rd hand rumour, that the most heavily weighted test Prodrive held was who could drive the fastest to the bank...
If Ramana did get the ride then he de$erve$ it. He really showed a lot of improvement this year and put in some excellent results. He's certainly fast enough to get the job done. He's young and I think he will continue to improve. It will be interesting to see if craptastic's sources are correct...
I also heard, mind you this is only a 2nd or 3rd hand rumour, that the most heavily weighted test Prodrive held was who could drive the fastest to the bank...
| brandonl | 12-16-2001 04:36 AM |
Not to say that $$$ didnt have anything to do with it, but Ramana is a very good driver. I'm sure he did earn his spot if it is true... After all, look how many wealthy rally drivers there are in the sport, if cash were the deciding factor, it could have been anyone.
Brandon
PS> Anyone know who has the other driver's spot on Mitsu's team?
Brandon
PS> Anyone know who has the other driver's spot on Mitsu's team?
| johnfelstead | 12-16-2001 07:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DMS-USA [/i]
[B]
I also heard, mind you this is only a 2nd or 3rd hand rumour, that the most heavily weighted test Prodrive held was who could drive the fastest to the bank... [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
If they were testing at sweet lamb then thats one hell of a drive too, that certainly would have sorted the men from the boys. :lol:
[B]
I also heard, mind you this is only a 2nd or 3rd hand rumour, that the most heavily weighted test Prodrive held was who could drive the fastest to the bank... [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
If they were testing at sweet lamb then thats one hell of a drive too, that certainly would have sorted the men from the boys. :lol:
| craptastic99 | 12-16-2001 10:33 AM |
Do you guys realize that Pat is filthy rich too? He started his own software company and sold it for big bucks. All three of those guys are rich; Karl, Ramana and Pat. Ramana is the fastest of the three but Pat does have some speed. Karl is just nice and consistant, but only a group N type of guy. Subaru is going to run two open cars next year and money is the biggest factor, this is all marketing; and winning with young talent is a better payoff then just hiring a guy who can pay for his ride.
| Tangmere | 12-16-2001 11:39 AM |
Tell me about it...
Mediocre/average driver with cash gets the ride over an talented/gifted driver with little or no money everytime. Been that way for years. Doesn't make it right, thats just the way it is.
I personally know a guy thats a lead instructor for one of the top racing schools here in the US. He raced at the Elf/Winfield School in France and won that. He won the East Coast Skip Barber FF race series (11/13 wins) He routinely beats the best that do it for a living, whether in a race car or a kart. He also test tires and cars for major manufacturers. He knows handling/chassis dynamics, can talk to engineers in their language and he coaches race drivers. But he doesn't have the money to buy into a race series. And the names of people in the race industry that call him a friend would read like a who's who internationally in motorsports. The sting of that (not racing) is abated somewhat when his counterparts tell him they're glad they don't have to compete against him.
Mark
I personally know a guy thats a lead instructor for one of the top racing schools here in the US. He raced at the Elf/Winfield School in France and won that. He won the East Coast Skip Barber FF race series (11/13 wins) He routinely beats the best that do it for a living, whether in a race car or a kart. He also test tires and cars for major manufacturers. He knows handling/chassis dynamics, can talk to engineers in their language and he coaches race drivers. But he doesn't have the money to buy into a race series. And the names of people in the race industry that call him a friend would read like a who's who internationally in motorsports. The sting of that (not racing) is abated somewhat when his counterparts tell him they're glad they don't have to compete against him.
Mark
| johnfelstead | 12-16-2001 12:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by craptastic99 [/i]
[B]Do you guys realize that Pat is filthy rich too? He started his own software company and sold it for big bucks. All three of those guys are rich; Karl, Ramana and Pat. Ramana is the fastest of the three but Pat does have some speed. Karl is just nice and consistant, but only a group N type of guy. Subaru is going to run two open cars next year and money is the biggest factor, this is all marketing; and winning with young talent is a better payoff then just hiring a guy who can pay for his ride. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll have to take issue with some of that. I don't know Pat personally, i know he is better off than a lot of people but that really shouldnt make the slightest diference to a team like the Prodrive run SOA works team. They want to promote the brand and sport in the USA to sell more cars. Fine, thats the intent with the WRC team too.
If they have any real interest in developing Rally as a sport in the USA then they should go with the guy who is the most tallented because to do otherwise does not help build a following for the sport with any credibility.
Ramana was not fastest, Pat was. Dont ask me how i know cos i wont say. I do know a few people in this sport linked with Subaru though. The rally world in the UK is a smallish one.
So Ramana is a pretty boy with a good PR image. Well if that is what really counts in the USA to make a success of Rally then you guys are doomed to mediocracy. Colin McRae isnt exactly Mr Beautiful, Neither is Burns (sorry Jamie ;) ) but they have tallent and recieved the backing from works teams to really step up a gear.
I wish Ramana well because i wish everyone in the sport i love well. I wish Pat more success though because he deserves it based on his tallent and his comitment.
What is it Subaru want? What is it the SCCA want? Right now i can think of at least 20 guys i know who could come over to the USA from the British series and kick the crap out of everyone including Lovell. Mark is a top driver but he is no where near the level of the guys running in our top National series.
Look at Richard Tuthill, he is not classed as a front running driver in the UK, not even close to the likes of Mark Higgins, Robbie Head or even Marcus Dodd yet he won 2 pro-rallies this year.
If you want to get to the same level as the UK and therefor the world you have to back top tallent and develop it with proper competition to push you to really find your limits and learn.
I think this sucks ass for the development of the sport in the USA. :mad:
[B]Do you guys realize that Pat is filthy rich too? He started his own software company and sold it for big bucks. All three of those guys are rich; Karl, Ramana and Pat. Ramana is the fastest of the three but Pat does have some speed. Karl is just nice and consistant, but only a group N type of guy. Subaru is going to run two open cars next year and money is the biggest factor, this is all marketing; and winning with young talent is a better payoff then just hiring a guy who can pay for his ride. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll have to take issue with some of that. I don't know Pat personally, i know he is better off than a lot of people but that really shouldnt make the slightest diference to a team like the Prodrive run SOA works team. They want to promote the brand and sport in the USA to sell more cars. Fine, thats the intent with the WRC team too.
If they have any real interest in developing Rally as a sport in the USA then they should go with the guy who is the most tallented because to do otherwise does not help build a following for the sport with any credibility.
Ramana was not fastest, Pat was. Dont ask me how i know cos i wont say. I do know a few people in this sport linked with Subaru though. The rally world in the UK is a smallish one.
So Ramana is a pretty boy with a good PR image. Well if that is what really counts in the USA to make a success of Rally then you guys are doomed to mediocracy. Colin McRae isnt exactly Mr Beautiful, Neither is Burns (sorry Jamie ;) ) but they have tallent and recieved the backing from works teams to really step up a gear.
I wish Ramana well because i wish everyone in the sport i love well. I wish Pat more success though because he deserves it based on his tallent and his comitment.
What is it Subaru want? What is it the SCCA want? Right now i can think of at least 20 guys i know who could come over to the USA from the British series and kick the crap out of everyone including Lovell. Mark is a top driver but he is no where near the level of the guys running in our top National series.
Look at Richard Tuthill, he is not classed as a front running driver in the UK, not even close to the likes of Mark Higgins, Robbie Head or even Marcus Dodd yet he won 2 pro-rallies this year.
If you want to get to the same level as the UK and therefor the world you have to back top tallent and develop it with proper competition to push you to really find your limits and learn.
I think this sucks ass for the development of the sport in the USA. :mad:
| Jon Bogert | 12-16-2001 02:04 PM |
[QUOTE]they should go with the guy who is the most tallented [/QUOTE]
But John, what does most talented even mean in this context? The biggest issue with U.S. competitors is lack of experience relative to European drivers. Ramana and Pat combined probably have less seat time than any driver over there. How can you say that a choice should be made based on who comes out ahead on a single test?
Assuming for a minute that Prodrive wanted to pick one guy as "raw material" to develop into a WRC driver. :lol: Picking one of them based on a test is like picking a World Series pitcher based on watching a little league game! Who can possibly know whether, given years of future training, practice and competition, who would make the better cadidate?
But that's most certainly not even the point. In the USA, rallying is a club sport, and the most Subaru can hope to achieve is a little good PR for the WRX. Who's the best driver, or who has the most potential for world domination is the farthest thing from an SOA marketing weenie's mind. Either Pat or Ramana is good enough/shows well enough on TV/whatever to meet the comparatively low requirements of U.S. rallying.
And if $$$$ makes the difference, so be it. All the sluggards with top-10 ProRally finishes in EVOs should prove well enough that $100k in your pocket for a good car and fresh tires is far more important to doing well in SCCA events than driving talent.
But John, what does most talented even mean in this context? The biggest issue with U.S. competitors is lack of experience relative to European drivers. Ramana and Pat combined probably have less seat time than any driver over there. How can you say that a choice should be made based on who comes out ahead on a single test?
Assuming for a minute that Prodrive wanted to pick one guy as "raw material" to develop into a WRC driver. :lol: Picking one of them based on a test is like picking a World Series pitcher based on watching a little league game! Who can possibly know whether, given years of future training, practice and competition, who would make the better cadidate?
But that's most certainly not even the point. In the USA, rallying is a club sport, and the most Subaru can hope to achieve is a little good PR for the WRX. Who's the best driver, or who has the most potential for world domination is the farthest thing from an SOA marketing weenie's mind. Either Pat or Ramana is good enough/shows well enough on TV/whatever to meet the comparatively low requirements of U.S. rallying.
And if $$$$ makes the difference, so be it. All the sluggards with top-10 ProRally finishes in EVOs should prove well enough that $100k in your pocket for a good car and fresh tires is far more important to doing well in SCCA events than driving talent.
| johnfelstead | 12-16-2001 02:32 PM |
I hear what you are saying Jon.
What is the point in testing these guys back to back if they weren't going to use the evidence as a basis to make a choice? What were the real motives, check out the competition to see how advanced they need to make the cars to compensate for the driver with the image? Am i being a bit cinical?
Rally in the USA has huge potential right now, it would have been a huge shot in the arm for the sport to have someone as exciting as Pat behind the wheel of one of the works cars.
I think it's a very sad reflection on what matters in the sport in the USA. A missed oportunity. I would love to see a driver from the USA make it into the WRC, right now i cant see that happening.
Pat is pretty new to this sport and doesnt have huge experience, based on his time behind the wheel he has huge potential, being part of the SOA team would have helped him big time to make that extra jump.
It doesnt really matter now because the deal is done. If i were Pat i would be seriously pissed off about this but even more determined to kick ass next year. No doubt Pat will be embarased about this whole topic, not a lot he can say i would think.
What is the point in testing these guys back to back if they weren't going to use the evidence as a basis to make a choice? What were the real motives, check out the competition to see how advanced they need to make the cars to compensate for the driver with the image? Am i being a bit cinical?
Rally in the USA has huge potential right now, it would have been a huge shot in the arm for the sport to have someone as exciting as Pat behind the wheel of one of the works cars.
I think it's a very sad reflection on what matters in the sport in the USA. A missed oportunity. I would love to see a driver from the USA make it into the WRC, right now i cant see that happening.
Pat is pretty new to this sport and doesnt have huge experience, based on his time behind the wheel he has huge potential, being part of the SOA team would have helped him big time to make that extra jump.
It doesnt really matter now because the deal is done. If i were Pat i would be seriously pissed off about this but even more determined to kick ass next year. No doubt Pat will be embarased about this whole topic, not a lot he can say i would think.
| 10th Warrior | 12-16-2001 02:54 PM |
well, not being a rally insider, there's not much i can add to this conversation except that Jon is right about the rich guys in EVOs *cough*nelson*cough*.
i think the whole issue with pat (are we positive about the change or not?) is that he is a canuck, and SOA don't want no canadian bacon on the team.
:) ;) j/k
i think the whole issue with pat (are we positive about the change or not?) is that he is a canuck, and SOA don't want no canadian bacon on the team.
:) ;) j/k
| craptastic99 | 12-16-2001 03:06 PM |
this is interesting stuff....I think pat is way better in the image department. Who wouldnt want a former semi-pro snowboarder who is fast as hell to represent their team? Ramana isnt the best image wise, he is quiet and soft spoken. But obviously both of these guys are fast, so everyone should just relax, subaru has their main guy in Lovell and now they want some young talent, simple as that.
Now Pat has the chance to kick some factory butt, look for him to be in a private team next year going fast. By the way i know both of these guys and they are totally cool and i wish them best of luck.
Now Pat has the chance to kick some factory butt, look for him to be in a private team next year going fast. By the way i know both of these guys and they are totally cool and i wish them best of luck.
| Axiochus | 12-16-2001 03:15 PM |
I've got nothing against Ramana, but as your average, every day, red blooded yankee, I would be much happier if SOA had Richard pilot the car. Not only does he have as much raw talent as anybody else in the series, he's got more *ahem* courage than anybody else on the continent. IMO, if this sport is going to get big here, it's folks like Pat that are going to lead the way.
If his being being Canadian had anything to do with the choice, then that's a shame, too. The popularity of the sport has been increasing exponentially the last four years... and how many American champs have there been during that time? (Hmm... Lovell? No. Lawler? No. Summerbell? No.). Besides, Canada isn't *really* another country... it's just another friendly state, like Minnesota.
This type of move does little for the sport. AFAIK, there are no "casual" rally fans in the US. Those of us who care enough about the sport to pay attention, will only be put off by this type of "buy-a-ride" crap that hurts so many other forms of motorsport.
If his being being Canadian had anything to do with the choice, then that's a shame, too. The popularity of the sport has been increasing exponentially the last four years... and how many American champs have there been during that time? (Hmm... Lovell? No. Lawler? No. Summerbell? No.). Besides, Canada isn't *really* another country... it's just another friendly state, like Minnesota.
This type of move does little for the sport. AFAIK, there are no "casual" rally fans in the US. Those of us who care enough about the sport to pay attention, will only be put off by this type of "buy-a-ride" crap that hurts so many other forms of motorsport.
| Robin2 | 12-16-2001 06:31 PM |
Just another side note here..... I'm sure Pat is reading this on the sidelines.....
What most don't know here except actual SCCA insiders from the sport (except for Canadian rally enthusiats), is that Pat has a ride and it's with Subaru Canada...... He ran an 02 WRX in P4 class (or PGT)..... and the last 2 events was upgraded to Group N class.
and rally exists in Canada...... and quite popular especially in Quebec.....
Robin
[url]www.ottawasubaru.com[/url]
What most don't know here except actual SCCA insiders from the sport (except for Canadian rally enthusiats), is that Pat has a ride and it's with Subaru Canada...... He ran an 02 WRX in P4 class (or PGT)..... and the last 2 events was upgraded to Group N class.
and rally exists in Canada...... and quite popular especially in Quebec.....
Robin
[url]www.ottawasubaru.com[/url]
| mwilliams | 12-16-2001 08:36 PM |
I can't wait to watch Pat R. kick the shiet out of the Subaru Rally Team. That is, once his Open car is sorted.
I am sure he can't wait either!
I am sure he can't wait either!
| Dave_Clark | 12-16-2001 09:24 PM |
The point Robin brings up is correct and important to consider. Pat already has a "factory" ride with the Subaru Canada Rally Team, and he doesn't have to pay for that.
As far as Subaru of America not wanting any Canadians on the team I don't think that even enters into it. Karl Scheible was the ONLY American on the team last year. Even his codriver, Brian Maxwell, is Canadian.
Also, lot's of people seem to think that Pat is filthy rich because the company he founded sold last year for millions of dollars. Why do you assume that Pat got all that money or even a significant part of it? Things don't always work that way in big business. I can assure you Pat is not a millionaire and is not even remotely as well heeled as Ramana. He makes enough money to contest the national series with some help from sponsors but he doesn't own a home, he doesn't have a wife or kids, so he has a bit more disposable income to spend on rallying than perhaps most people. I don't think he minds me saying these things because I know it annoys him when people assume he's loaded because of the high profile sale of his company. Some newspaper articles made things sound different than they were.
John, you are so right about the level of the sport. As you say there are probably any number of drivers in Great Britain that could really show us Americans how to drive and make the likes of Tuthill look mediocre. I seen before where Tuthill is not considered that great a driver in England yet he's quite able to win rallies overall here in the USA. It's all about the breeding grounds. In Great Britain (in all of Europe and Scandinavia, actually) you have a huge amount of pariticipation, a huge amount of competition, and a lot of events. All this fantastic competition and great roads produces great drivers. A rich punter with a brand new trick of the week machine can't come in and "buy" a good result just tooling around the stages at 3/4 throttle like can happen here because all the other really talented drivers that are really driving the car are all driving the same trick of the week machines! Besides, the really good drivers (and there are lots of them, not just a handful) could probably beat the rich punter and his trick of the week machine in an old MkII Escort!
I've seen the same thing at a smaller level here in the U.S. The rally program in the Pacific Northwest has always been very strong. Lots of events and really good roads, driver's roads. Other parts of the country do not have as good roads, usually, and not as many events. The level of competition in the Northwest is pretty high and all of this seems to produce good drivers. This seems to be evidenced by the fact that when Northwest drivers have ventured out to other regions they have historically done very well. Not just the top NW drivers, but even the midpack ones. And when drivers from other regions have come to the NW, even if they are tops in their region, they have found it very challenging and struggled to achieve top results. At least at first, if they keep coming to NW events the competiton makes them improve! Why do you think Rod Millen always sent his new rally proteges and friends up to the NorPac region to learn instead of close by at home in the California Rally Series? Think of Jeff Zwart, Shannon Smith, Todd Bawden, Ralph Kosmides, even his son Rhys. They all got their start in the NorPac series.
So anyway, that started veering off course a little but I bring it up to back up what John Felstead said. If you are trundling along unchallenged as the biggest fish in a little pond then you are never going to improve. The SCCA ProRally series is a pretty small pond, but it is increasingly getting bigger. Look at the Hyundai team this year. They used to be the biggest fish, but not anymore. People think they had a really bad year this season, but really it wasn't much different than the last several for them. They've always had a certain amount of mechanical issues but they can usually cobble the can back together and because Paul is a good driver and there was relatively not much competition he could make up the time or limp the car back for a win. Well, this year the bar was raised and that didn't work anymore. Look for the Hyundai team to spend a bit more money this year and step it up to meet the challenge.
Pat is someone who is not afraid to travel outside his pond to see how well he can do and to improve his game. That's what he went to Australia for. And he sent in his resume and got invited to test drive for Ford in a Super 1600 Puma for a possible ride in the European Championship (he would have been up against some tough competition!) Unfortunately it conflicted with the last Canadian rally of the year and he wasn't able to attend. I'm sure Pat will do some more rallies outside of North America in the future as well.
And look for the Rocket Rally Team stepping up and challenging this year as well. I think Pat can win a rally or two overall this year. We'll give it a try, anyway. The important thing is WE know who was fastest on a little road in Wales in the same car with the same codriver. But there's a whole slew of new cars and fast drivers that are going to be competing next year, so it should be fun. Now it's up to me to keep the car reliable!
As far as Subaru of America not wanting any Canadians on the team I don't think that even enters into it. Karl Scheible was the ONLY American on the team last year. Even his codriver, Brian Maxwell, is Canadian.
Also, lot's of people seem to think that Pat is filthy rich because the company he founded sold last year for millions of dollars. Why do you assume that Pat got all that money or even a significant part of it? Things don't always work that way in big business. I can assure you Pat is not a millionaire and is not even remotely as well heeled as Ramana. He makes enough money to contest the national series with some help from sponsors but he doesn't own a home, he doesn't have a wife or kids, so he has a bit more disposable income to spend on rallying than perhaps most people. I don't think he minds me saying these things because I know it annoys him when people assume he's loaded because of the high profile sale of his company. Some newspaper articles made things sound different than they were.
John, you are so right about the level of the sport. As you say there are probably any number of drivers in Great Britain that could really show us Americans how to drive and make the likes of Tuthill look mediocre. I seen before where Tuthill is not considered that great a driver in England yet he's quite able to win rallies overall here in the USA. It's all about the breeding grounds. In Great Britain (in all of Europe and Scandinavia, actually) you have a huge amount of pariticipation, a huge amount of competition, and a lot of events. All this fantastic competition and great roads produces great drivers. A rich punter with a brand new trick of the week machine can't come in and "buy" a good result just tooling around the stages at 3/4 throttle like can happen here because all the other really talented drivers that are really driving the car are all driving the same trick of the week machines! Besides, the really good drivers (and there are lots of them, not just a handful) could probably beat the rich punter and his trick of the week machine in an old MkII Escort!
I've seen the same thing at a smaller level here in the U.S. The rally program in the Pacific Northwest has always been very strong. Lots of events and really good roads, driver's roads. Other parts of the country do not have as good roads, usually, and not as many events. The level of competition in the Northwest is pretty high and all of this seems to produce good drivers. This seems to be evidenced by the fact that when Northwest drivers have ventured out to other regions they have historically done very well. Not just the top NW drivers, but even the midpack ones. And when drivers from other regions have come to the NW, even if they are tops in their region, they have found it very challenging and struggled to achieve top results. At least at first, if they keep coming to NW events the competiton makes them improve! Why do you think Rod Millen always sent his new rally proteges and friends up to the NorPac region to learn instead of close by at home in the California Rally Series? Think of Jeff Zwart, Shannon Smith, Todd Bawden, Ralph Kosmides, even his son Rhys. They all got their start in the NorPac series.
So anyway, that started veering off course a little but I bring it up to back up what John Felstead said. If you are trundling along unchallenged as the biggest fish in a little pond then you are never going to improve. The SCCA ProRally series is a pretty small pond, but it is increasingly getting bigger. Look at the Hyundai team this year. They used to be the biggest fish, but not anymore. People think they had a really bad year this season, but really it wasn't much different than the last several for them. They've always had a certain amount of mechanical issues but they can usually cobble the can back together and because Paul is a good driver and there was relatively not much competition he could make up the time or limp the car back for a win. Well, this year the bar was raised and that didn't work anymore. Look for the Hyundai team to spend a bit more money this year and step it up to meet the challenge.
Pat is someone who is not afraid to travel outside his pond to see how well he can do and to improve his game. That's what he went to Australia for. And he sent in his resume and got invited to test drive for Ford in a Super 1600 Puma for a possible ride in the European Championship (he would have been up against some tough competition!) Unfortunately it conflicted with the last Canadian rally of the year and he wasn't able to attend. I'm sure Pat will do some more rallies outside of North America in the future as well.
And look for the Rocket Rally Team stepping up and challenging this year as well. I think Pat can win a rally or two overall this year. We'll give it a try, anyway. The important thing is WE know who was fastest on a little road in Wales in the same car with the same codriver. But there's a whole slew of new cars and fast drivers that are going to be competing next year, so it should be fun. Now it's up to me to keep the car reliable!
| Dave_Clark | 12-16-2001 09:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mwilliams [/i]
[B]I can't wait to watch Pat R. kick the shiet out of the Subaru Rally Team. That is, once his Open car is sorted.
I am sure he can't wait either! [/B][/QUOTE]
Mark, is that really you??:confused:
[B]I can't wait to watch Pat R. kick the shiet out of the Subaru Rally Team. That is, once his Open car is sorted.
I am sure he can't wait either! [/B][/QUOTE]
Mark, is that really you??:confused:
| Robin2 | 12-16-2001 09:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DMS-USA [/i]
[B]
Mark, is that really you??:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
I doubt it Dave..... probably just a coincidence.....
or maybe in reference at the Maine rally during the banquet speeches....
Robin
[B]
Mark, is that really you??:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
I doubt it Dave..... probably just a coincidence.....
or maybe in reference at the Maine rally during the banquet speeches....
Robin
| Dave_Clark | 12-16-2001 10:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Robin2 [/i]
[B]
or maybe in reference at the Maine rally during the banquet speeches....
Robin [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, Lovell kind of put his foot in his mouth at that one. I don't think he meant it to come out that way though...
[B]
or maybe in reference at the Maine rally during the banquet speeches....
Robin [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, Lovell kind of put his foot in his mouth at that one. I don't think he meant it to come out that way though...
| brandonl | 12-17-2001 01:35 AM |
PVB, Jon Bogert, DC or anyone heard who will be the other mitsu team driver? (other than Rhys) Any opinions on what their level of competition will be in '02 against subaru? Not that anyone on this board would be biased... :rolleyes:
Brandon
Brandon
| Subie Gal | 12-17-2001 03:49 AM |
i heard a strong candidate would be Laughlin O'Sullivan... for the Mitsu team....
Unless there is a ton of $$$ behind them, Mitsu will struggle to keep up w/prodrive and subaru....
if they get the financial backing they need (to boost up the cars, repair work, spare shells, etc) we could see a real championship race this season i think :)
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
Unless there is a ton of $$$ behind them, Mitsu will struggle to keep up w/prodrive and subaru....
if they get the financial backing they need (to boost up the cars, repair work, spare shells, etc) we could see a real championship race this season i think :)
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Tangmere | 12-17-2001 10:46 AM |
This same argument can be applied or already has been to every series of motorsport here in the US. If they (US) goes overseas to compete, generally they get killed. The approach to racing over here is too parochial, too insular. There isn't a good farm system, no decent stepping stone to the next level. Look at karting over here, hardly a whimper. Over in Europe or elsewhere its a given that to start in your racing career you start in a kart. Here in the US thats usually not the issue. Motorsports is treated as a luxury over here, there is not local team/driver to support. No fanaticism (I mean that in a good sense), no real passion. Which is not to say that there aren't any good drivers over here, there are, but they're the exception rather than the rule.
You're talking about Pat, Ramana, and a few others. Thats the problem, there are only that many (maybe 10?) that are of any consequence. Thats way too low, plus they wouldn't even factor talent-wise in the WRC. The only way, as it was mentioned in a earlier post, is to start over across the pond, move over there, learn the language, train like they do, drive like they do, eat, sleep, crap, like they do. Just because it's not American doesn't mean it doesn't work. Then maybe, just maybe in about 10+ years or so you might have an American WRC driver. Meanwhile there'll still be a boatload of non-US drivers that were training and coming up the ladder alongside you.
You're talking about Pat, Ramana, and a few others. Thats the problem, there are only that many (maybe 10?) that are of any consequence. Thats way too low, plus they wouldn't even factor talent-wise in the WRC. The only way, as it was mentioned in a earlier post, is to start over across the pond, move over there, learn the language, train like they do, drive like they do, eat, sleep, crap, like they do. Just because it's not American doesn't mean it doesn't work. Then maybe, just maybe in about 10+ years or so you might have an American WRC driver. Meanwhile there'll still be a boatload of non-US drivers that were training and coming up the ladder alongside you.
| sumit | 12-17-2001 12:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brandonl [/i]
[B]PVB, Jon Bogert, DC or anyone heard who will be the other mitsu team driver? (other than Rhys) Any opinions on what their level of competition will be in '02 against subaru? Not that anyone on this board would be biased... :rolleyes:
Brandon [/B][/QUOTE]
ok, this is just something that i heard from someone...not sure if it is correct.
Mitsubishi is going to campaign a P class car in 2002 and Laughlin was the first driver in line to get a ride. He was bringing some $$ to the team....but then this other driver went upto Mitsubishi and offered them more money so Laughlin was bumped. And that other driver was Karl.
[B]PVB, Jon Bogert, DC or anyone heard who will be the other mitsu team driver? (other than Rhys) Any opinions on what their level of competition will be in '02 against subaru? Not that anyone on this board would be biased... :rolleyes:
Brandon [/B][/QUOTE]
ok, this is just something that i heard from someone...not sure if it is correct.
Mitsubishi is going to campaign a P class car in 2002 and Laughlin was the first driver in line to get a ride. He was bringing some $$ to the team....but then this other driver went upto Mitsubishi and offered them more money so Laughlin was bumped. And that other driver was Karl.
| wrxclnt | 12-17-2001 12:38 PM |
I think you are all forgetting probably the most exciting driver currently in the US - Andrew Havas.
He definitely isn't loaded with the big bucks. He drives like a maniac and can beat the open class all wheel drive cars with an old rx-7. And best of all - he dyed his hair orange to match his car!
I wonder what he could do with a real car and budget?
Another point, you can bet if any of us won the lottery we would be out there with our expensive toys trying to win too. We're just jealous - I know I am.
-john
He definitely isn't loaded with the big bucks. He drives like a maniac and can beat the open class all wheel drive cars with an old rx-7. And best of all - he dyed his hair orange to match his car!
I wonder what he could do with a real car and budget?
Another point, you can bet if any of us won the lottery we would be out there with our expensive toys trying to win too. We're just jealous - I know I am.
-john
| 10th Warrior | 12-17-2001 01:45 PM |
yeah, andrew is a great driver and a real nice guy. i would like to see him in a more competitive ride, although that '79 RX-7 does have its appeal :)
| brandonl | 12-17-2001 01:55 PM |
Jamie> I'm sure mitsu will have plenty of cash to throw toward their efforts this season. As long as both teams' cars stay reliable, it should be a great show.
Sumit> I sure hope their isnt going to be a P Oz lancer or something lame like that, if there is, Karl can drive that sissy-mobile.
Lauchlin would be a good choice, but its a shame the Seamus would be over looked due to his age. Karl is very consistent and does have a heavy wallet.
wrxclnt> I think Andrew Havas is one of the best too, but the fact that he is considered a "maniac" when driving and does things like dying his hair orange is what makes him exciting to watch. And those types of things scare factory teams (at least I think so).
just my .02,
Brandon
Sumit> I sure hope their isnt going to be a P Oz lancer or something lame like that, if there is, Karl can drive that sissy-mobile.
Lauchlin would be a good choice, but its a shame the Seamus would be over looked due to his age. Karl is very consistent and does have a heavy wallet.
wrxclnt> I think Andrew Havas is one of the best too, but the fact that he is considered a "maniac" when driving and does things like dying his hair orange is what makes him exciting to watch. And those types of things scare factory teams (at least I think so).
just my .02,
Brandon
| JER | 12-17-2001 03:44 PM |
If it's true congrats to Ramana. He worked hard this year and it paid off for him. If Prodrive thought he was the man for the job I'm sure they had a good reason and I doubt it was the fact that he's well off.
Jason
Jason
| Dave_Clark | 12-17-2001 05:01 PM |
I don't think anyone meant to imply that that was the only reason (obviously if you're not fast enough you're not going to get the job) but if you think that wasn't a major contributing factor then you are being pretty naive.
| sumit | 12-17-2001 07:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by brandonl [/i]
[B]
Lauchlin would be a good choice, but its a shame the Seamus would be over looked due to his age. Karl is very consistent and does have a heavy wallet.
Brandon [/B][/QUOTE]
Brandon,
Seamus will not be overlooked because of his age but because, Mitsubishi US Rally team is essentially Rod and Rhys' effort, they are not going to hire some one who can beat the #1 guy in team. If they were to contest 2 cars in open class, the other driver has to be a lower caliber driver than Rhys.
And there are not too many of them around :lol:
[B]
Lauchlin would be a good choice, but its a shame the Seamus would be over looked due to his age. Karl is very consistent and does have a heavy wallet.
Brandon [/B][/QUOTE]
Brandon,
Seamus will not be overlooked because of his age but because, Mitsubishi US Rally team is essentially Rod and Rhys' effort, they are not going to hire some one who can beat the #1 guy in team. If they were to contest 2 cars in open class, the other driver has to be a lower caliber driver than Rhys.
And there are not too many of them around :lol:
| WRXSTiVer5 | 01-03-2002 09:41 AM |
I think it's too bad that this thread has disolved into a discussion that assumes things about certain people when no one person knows both sides of the issue. Everyone thinks they know because of their "source" but we all know how accurate that is. I've been a fan of rallying for years and I've always believed that everything shakes out in the end. I know money matters and that it isn't always talent that decides who makes it and who doesn't. Sometimes people need a bit of help to make it to the next level and never get it, therefore never getting the chance to show what they can really do. It's too bad that that's the way it happens but it's the way it is in every form of motorsport. That is not to say that only the rich guys make it. Ramana and Pat are both very quick drivers and it must have been a tough decision to make.
We'll see how the season shakes out. Only time will tell if it was the right decision. Ramana put in some fantastic results last season and so did Pat. That jump and stage time on the Brockway stage was fantastic! Let's all just watch and see and not be so quick to predict this decision as the wrong one or made because of money. Rallying in the US needs heros, people like Mcrae and Burns. Pull in behind your guy and root him on, don't bash the other guy because no one knows both sides.
We'll see how the season shakes out. Only time will tell if it was the right decision. Ramana put in some fantastic results last season and so did Pat. That jump and stage time on the Brockway stage was fantastic! Let's all just watch and see and not be so quick to predict this decision as the wrong one or made because of money. Rallying in the US needs heros, people like Mcrae and Burns. Pull in behind your guy and root him on, don't bash the other guy because no one knows both sides.
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