| Tensen | 03-31-2006 11:49 PM |
Sebastian Loeb and the "Schumacher Effect"
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In light of the "subaru slump" thread, I was wondering if there are others out there that are, well, bored as I am of the WRC. I've noticed that by mid last season, I had to force myself to watch each event, and I have yet to watch one this year (tho I do hunt down hi-res photos from the events)...I dont think anyone can doubt my passion for rally, given my involvement with US rally series...so what is it?
I'm thinking that there is a parallel to the 2000-2004 era of F1 here, when Lil Mikey Schumacher won everything. Many people grew bored of F1, lost interest, quit watching. I am generalizing a bit here, but I know many people, f1 fans and otherwise, who stopped caring about f1 because it was a foregone conclusion that the Scudiera would take the podium, barring someone punting Mikey or Rubens off.
Now, I contend that the 2005 F1 season was really entertaining, lots of good battles, and interest in the sport grew a bit simply by the variety present because michael WASNT dominating, the great battles between Kimi and Fernando and JPM.... and this season looks to be amazing (I, for one, will be watching Rosberg closely, among others). I will be staying up till the wee hours of the morning to view the races, including practice and qualifying.
However, WRC isnt on US TV at the moment, and despite event coverage being only a torrent away, I find it hard to care....Why? Simply because I know Clockwork Loeb will dominate, barring that he doesnt punt the car into a tree out of sheer boredom, ala Australia 05. The guy is amazingly fast, clean, mechanically precise, and in a machine that wont quit. Sound familiar? Add on top of that a dearth of "true" works teams...As much as I like seeing privateers get coverage, the ones that are may as well be factory teams anyway.
So, anyone else with me on this? is WRC in a slump? Am I alone wondering after an event not how Solberg placed, but what took him out? Your thoughts are welcome :)
I'm thinking that there is a parallel to the 2000-2004 era of F1 here, when Lil Mikey Schumacher won everything. Many people grew bored of F1, lost interest, quit watching. I am generalizing a bit here, but I know many people, f1 fans and otherwise, who stopped caring about f1 because it was a foregone conclusion that the Scudiera would take the podium, barring someone punting Mikey or Rubens off.
Now, I contend that the 2005 F1 season was really entertaining, lots of good battles, and interest in the sport grew a bit simply by the variety present because michael WASNT dominating, the great battles between Kimi and Fernando and JPM.... and this season looks to be amazing (I, for one, will be watching Rosberg closely, among others). I will be staying up till the wee hours of the morning to view the races, including practice and qualifying.
However, WRC isnt on US TV at the moment, and despite event coverage being only a torrent away, I find it hard to care....Why? Simply because I know Clockwork Loeb will dominate, barring that he doesnt punt the car into a tree out of sheer boredom, ala Australia 05. The guy is amazingly fast, clean, mechanically precise, and in a machine that wont quit. Sound familiar? Add on top of that a dearth of "true" works teams...As much as I like seeing privateers get coverage, the ones that are may as well be factory teams anyway.
So, anyone else with me on this? is WRC in a slump? Am I alone wondering after an event not how Solberg placed, but what took him out? Your thoughts are welcome :)
| Tensen | 03-31-2006 11:50 PM |
and yes, Sebastian was a typo...I know its not spelled "Sebatstian" :)
| jeisen | 04-01-2006 12:57 AM |
Feel the same way to an extent, except I am still watching WRC through torrents. I need my rally fix, but at the same time, while marcus has been doing good in the focus, I find myself watching the race behind loeb more than loeb's performance. However, in order to change some of this, there must be some significant rule change that stops him from being competitive (just look at Ferrari and Bridgestone last year). Perhaps a two race tire rule would make things interesting :D
| WRXdonkey | 04-01-2006 01:47 PM |
I don't think the rules should be changed to even the playing field! That defeats the purpose of the sport! What are you, a democrat? =P
| dowroa | 04-01-2006 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXdonkey]I don't think the rules should be changed to even the playing field! That defeats the purpose of the sport! What are you, a democrat? =P[/QUOTE]
What are you, a republican? Seriously. That was one of THE dumbest statements I have read on the motorsports forum that hasn't come from me in a LONG while.
WRC coverage -- eh. I get tired of Subaru not really performing. I come from NC Stae university, and it is about the same sorta feeling. Doing well in 3/4th of the 'game' to only blow a sure thing at the end. Even then, he still isn't 'on pace' with Loeb.
Blech. I am watching pretty much Speed World Challenge, Grand Am, and ALMS this season. :(
Hopefully, I can find some DOMESTIC rallys to watch ;)
- dow
What are you, a republican? Seriously. That was one of THE dumbest statements I have read on the motorsports forum that hasn't come from me in a LONG while.
WRC coverage -- eh. I get tired of Subaru not really performing. I come from NC Stae university, and it is about the same sorta feeling. Doing well in 3/4th of the 'game' to only blow a sure thing at the end. Even then, he still isn't 'on pace' with Loeb.
Blech. I am watching pretty much Speed World Challenge, Grand Am, and ALMS this season. :(
Hopefully, I can find some DOMESTIC rallys to watch ;)
- dow
| theicewall | 04-01-2006 02:01 PM |
Except that I don't see what the problem is really other than the inability for subaru to devise a car that doesnt lose power steering, driveshafts, and tread, and Loeb's ability to drive like a bat out of hell. I don't think its Petter's fault that Loeb can outdrive him and I don't think its FIA's fault that Loeb's car is more reliable than Petter's. I do think that subaru needs to work with pirelli on getting some tires that last through the stages but still give good traction. It seems to me along with those writting in the tire thread about wrc that the pirellis are both not as grippy and not as durable which is a terrible combination. I dont know if the subaru car is heavy or has a whacky polar moment of inertia but Loeb's car just looks better balanced and more agile while SWRT car looks big, bulky, and more like a supercar (not so much in looks but how it appears while it handles) than a rally car. In 2002 and 2003 I dont think any subaru fans would have wanted the rules changed to level the playing field so in 04,05-and 06 it seems silly to complain. I do think that no water injection has hurt the subaru team, the car looks slow and everytime they do that 0-100 start graphic you can see the subaru car in the back of the pack while the citroen is up in the front more. I think that subaru needs to do something with their production car to finally handle better than the Evo, and that they need to do something with their rally car to increase its agility, durability, and tarmac capability because I know my street car outhandles most other street cars and I'd like to see the subaru wrc car start outhandling some other wrc cars.
| wrxsubaru | 04-01-2006 02:16 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXdonkey]I don't think the rules should be changed to even the playing field! That defeats the purpose of the sport! What are you, a democrat? =P[/QUOTE]
I thought it was Bush that dident want all the votes counted in Florida for his 2000 election? :confused:
Any way i think its always a horrible idea to level the playing field just becasue someone is dominating a sport, Subaru really needs to step up there participation and development of the car.
I thought it was Bush that dident want all the votes counted in Florida for his 2000 election? :confused:
Any way i think its always a horrible idea to level the playing field just becasue someone is dominating a sport, Subaru really needs to step up there participation and development of the car.
| bitterWRX | 04-01-2006 03:44 PM |
Although I agree that Loeb has been amazingly dominant these past three years, I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned Gronholm's speed this year with his new Ford Focus. I think Subaru is going to be out of contention this year, since Subaru hasn't been able to get a reliable car going but I think Gronholm is going to put out one hell of a fight this season. The new Focus fits him so much better than his 207 and it seems like it'll be a two man battle all season.
I guess watching Loeb and Schumacher win can get kind of boring... but I think it also makes a race better, when you have a dominant player beaten by someone else. When Gronholm beat out Loeb in the first two rallys, and when Sordo beat out a big name like Gronholm in the last Rally, it was pretty damn exciting.
I guess watching Loeb and Schumacher win can get kind of boring... but I think it also makes a race better, when you have a dominant player beaten by someone else. When Gronholm beat out Loeb in the first two rallys, and when Sordo beat out a big name like Gronholm in the last Rally, it was pretty damn exciting.
| Mopho | 04-01-2006 03:55 PM |
Go back a few years and insert Gronholm/Peugeot, same story, go back a few years before that, insert Makinen/Mitsubishi
| Tensen | 04-01-2006 04:25 PM |
certainly, props to gronholm.
| wgknestrick | 04-01-2006 05:40 PM |
WRC needs to go back to more "stock" components in cars. WRC should mandate stock block, stock heads, maybe drivetrain or at least drivetrain type, and chasis.
The thing that gets me is that they allow these teams to run cars that are nowhere near the production model with AWD added.
If you can't sell a car model that is competitive and be able to make $$ on it in the open market, you don't belong. WRC is there to force the development of the cars to give us better choices as enthusist. It is a proving ground for products.
I will admit though, that Loeb is head and shoulders above the pack with reguard to skill, it's just that his "citroen" never breaks down. I will also admit that most mechanical failures can be blamed on the drivers abusing the cars or hitting something.
Does Citroen even currently sell an AWD/turbo car now?
The thing that gets me is that they allow these teams to run cars that are nowhere near the production model with AWD added.
If you can't sell a car model that is competitive and be able to make $$ on it in the open market, you don't belong. WRC is there to force the development of the cars to give us better choices as enthusist. It is a proving ground for products.
I will admit though, that Loeb is head and shoulders above the pack with reguard to skill, it's just that his "citroen" never breaks down. I will also admit that most mechanical failures can be blamed on the drivers abusing the cars or hitting something.
Does Citroen even currently sell an AWD/turbo car now?
| bjorn240 | 04-01-2006 05:56 PM |
Well, that'll ensure Subaru FTW. Um, hello?
| Predwolf | 04-01-2006 07:23 PM |
[QUOTE=wgknestrick]WRC needs to go back to more "stock" components in cars. WRC should mandate stock block, stock heads, maybe drivetrain or at least drivetrain type, and chasis.
The thing that gets me is that they allow these teams to run cars that are nowhere near the production model with AWD added.
If you can't sell a car model that is competitive and be able to make $$ on it in the open market, you don't belong. WRC is there to force the development of the cars to give us better choices as enthusist. It is a proving ground for products.
I will admit though, that Loeb is head and shoulders above the pack with reguard to skill, it's just that his "citroen" never breaks down. I will also admit that most mechanical failures can be blamed on the drivers abusing the cars or hitting something.
Does Citroen even currently sell an AWD/turbo car now?[/QUOTE]
I've actually wanted this for a while now. At least the drivetrain part. It bugs me to no end to see cars that SHOULD be front wheel drive, flying by cars that come standard with AWD (Subaru, Mistubishi).
The thing that gets me is that they allow these teams to run cars that are nowhere near the production model with AWD added.
If you can't sell a car model that is competitive and be able to make $$ on it in the open market, you don't belong. WRC is there to force the development of the cars to give us better choices as enthusist. It is a proving ground for products.
I will admit though, that Loeb is head and shoulders above the pack with reguard to skill, it's just that his "citroen" never breaks down. I will also admit that most mechanical failures can be blamed on the drivers abusing the cars or hitting something.
Does Citroen even currently sell an AWD/turbo car now?[/QUOTE]
I've actually wanted this for a while now. At least the drivetrain part. It bugs me to no end to see cars that SHOULD be front wheel drive, flying by cars that come standard with AWD (Subaru, Mistubishi).
| WRXdonkey | 04-01-2006 07:31 PM |
First and foremost, the Democrat comment was a joke ;-) hence the "=P" that followed it, no biggie though, it wasn't to thread jack. Just to catch a few laughs.
[QUOTE=Predwolf]I've actually wanted this for a while now. At least the drivetrain part. It bugs me to no end to see cars that SHOULD be front wheel drive, flying by cars that come standard with AWD (Subaru, Mistubishi).[/QUOTE]
Good points being made all around here... But Predwolf, what cars are you referring to? Thoroughly enjoying these discussions... few live near me that even know what WRC is.
[QUOTE=Predwolf]I've actually wanted this for a while now. At least the drivetrain part. It bugs me to no end to see cars that SHOULD be front wheel drive, flying by cars that come standard with AWD (Subaru, Mistubishi).[/QUOTE]
Good points being made all around here... But Predwolf, what cars are you referring to? Thoroughly enjoying these discussions... few live near me that even know what WRC is.
| theicewall | 04-01-2006 07:41 PM |
[QUOTE=wgknestrick]WRC needs to go back to more "stock" components in cars. WRC should mandate stock block, stock heads, maybe drivetrain or at least drivetrain type, and chasis.
The thing that gets me is that they allow these teams to run cars that are nowhere near the production model with AWD added.
If you can't sell a car model that is competitive and be able to make $$ on it in the open market, you don't belong. WRC is there to force the development of the cars to give us better choices as enthusist. It is a proving ground for products.
I will admit though, that Loeb is head and shoulders above the pack with reguard to skill, it's just that his "citroen" never breaks down. I will also admit that most mechanical failures can be blamed on the drivers abusing the cars or hitting something.
Does Citroen even currently sell an AWD/turbo car now?[/QUOTE]
WRC does require those things. Its called group N and group A, but open class is where all the new innovation that trickles down into our everyday cars originally comes from.
I agree with the AWD comments, and for awhile wasnt the xsara just a kit car? I assume there is a production car now or it wouldnt be permitted to rally but I think there should be a broader spectrum of production to be allowed in rally. For example, try getting a Focus awd turbo, you have to go to england for that and Ford is an American company.
The thing that gets me is that they allow these teams to run cars that are nowhere near the production model with AWD added.
If you can't sell a car model that is competitive and be able to make $$ on it in the open market, you don't belong. WRC is there to force the development of the cars to give us better choices as enthusist. It is a proving ground for products.
I will admit though, that Loeb is head and shoulders above the pack with reguard to skill, it's just that his "citroen" never breaks down. I will also admit that most mechanical failures can be blamed on the drivers abusing the cars or hitting something.
Does Citroen even currently sell an AWD/turbo car now?[/QUOTE]
WRC does require those things. Its called group N and group A, but open class is where all the new innovation that trickles down into our everyday cars originally comes from.
I agree with the AWD comments, and for awhile wasnt the xsara just a kit car? I assume there is a production car now or it wouldnt be permitted to rally but I think there should be a broader spectrum of production to be allowed in rally. For example, try getting a Focus awd turbo, you have to go to england for that and Ford is an American company.
| Carizme | 04-01-2006 08:13 PM |
I agree with mostly everything said here. Subaru has failed to perform and Loeb has been like a machine. Very little errors made and he always seems to pick the best tires. Atkinson just needs more experience. It seems like the planets need to be aligned in order for anything to happen for SWRT
Although it does get a little boring seeing him win all events I find it very entertaining how the best drivers crash out the first day and make up the penalty under the restart rules and still make podium.
Although it does get a little boring seeing him win all events I find it very entertaining how the best drivers crash out the first day and make up the penalty under the restart rules and still make podium.
| KAX | 04-01-2006 08:16 PM |
They have to sell a WRC spec car somewhere. They sell Impreza WRC's in europe, they sell focus WRCs in europe and the same goes for all of the cars. All AWD turbo cars, whether their base is the same or not, thats the FIA rules.
[QUOTE=Mopho]Go back a few years and insert Gronholm/Peugeot, same story, go back a few years before that, insert Makinen/Mitsubishi[/QUOTE]
and this is exactly correct. its just like Michael and Ferrari in F1, go back a few years and someone else was dominating. There is always going to be someone on top (renault in F1 now, citroen in WRC.... funny that the french make the most reliable race car :lol: ) when the rules arent completely limiting, like Group N or NASCAR or GP2. One or two teams will get it 100% right, while the others have to comprimise. Give it a few years and someone else will dominate. It looks like Ford is up to the job when citroen falls down.
[QUOTE=Mopho]Go back a few years and insert Gronholm/Peugeot, same story, go back a few years before that, insert Makinen/Mitsubishi[/QUOTE]
and this is exactly correct. its just like Michael and Ferrari in F1, go back a few years and someone else was dominating. There is always going to be someone on top (renault in F1 now, citroen in WRC.... funny that the french make the most reliable race car :lol: ) when the rules arent completely limiting, like Group N or NASCAR or GP2. One or two teams will get it 100% right, while the others have to comprimise. Give it a few years and someone else will dominate. It looks like Ford is up to the job when citroen falls down.
| theicewall | 04-01-2006 08:23 PM |
Impreza wrc's for sale in europe? If you mean you can buy a $500,000 impreza model S10 from Prodrive then yes I suppose they are, but otherwise I suppose what you really mean is a 2.0L STi AWD platform.
| Mopho | 04-01-2006 08:23 PM |
[QUOTE=KAX]They have to sell a WRC spec car somewhere. They sell Impreza WRC's in europe, they sell focus WRCs in europe and the same goes for all of the cars. All AWD turbo cars, whether their base is the same or not, thats the FIA rules.
[/QUOTE]
:huh:
[/QUOTE]
:huh:
| KAX | 04-01-2006 08:25 PM |
ive seen an impreza WRC in a magazine, and not the actual rally car, and based on the rules of FIA they have to sell a rally-spec car (or they used to). idk what the others are called, but im pretty sure they do it too.
| davis10 | 04-01-2006 08:44 PM |
I think that perelli needs to get their act togeather, and start putting more time and money into their rally program
| Mopho | 04-01-2006 08:58 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]
I agree with the AWD comments, and for awhile wasnt the xsara just a kit car? I assume there is a production car now or it wouldnt be permitted to rally but I think there should be a broader spectrum of production to be allowed in rally. For example, try getting a Focus awd turbo, you have to go to england for that and Ford is an American company.[/QUOTE]
There is no Focus awd turbo. The only companies that currently have an awd turbo car similar in drivetrain layout to the WRC car are Mitsubishi and Subaru. Ford Europe is run completely separate from Ford USA and for the most part they make completely different cars
"Kit car" was just another name for the, now defunct, F2 class of front wheel drive cars and was based on production cars. It was not a prototype race version of a car not in production
I agree with the AWD comments, and for awhile wasnt the xsara just a kit car? I assume there is a production car now or it wouldnt be permitted to rally but I think there should be a broader spectrum of production to be allowed in rally. For example, try getting a Focus awd turbo, you have to go to england for that and Ford is an American company.[/QUOTE]
There is no Focus awd turbo. The only companies that currently have an awd turbo car similar in drivetrain layout to the WRC car are Mitsubishi and Subaru. Ford Europe is run completely separate from Ford USA and for the most part they make completely different cars
"Kit car" was just another name for the, now defunct, F2 class of front wheel drive cars and was based on production cars. It was not a prototype race version of a car not in production
| Mopho | 04-01-2006 09:01 PM |
[QUOTE=KAX]ive seen an impreza WRC in a magazine, and not the actual rally car, and based on the rules of FIA they have to sell a rally-spec car (or they used to). idk what the others are called, but im pretty sure they do it too.[/QUOTE]
Prodrive have always produced a few customer WRC cars (at a bit lower spec than the factory team) for private teams to generate extra revenue, but it is not in the rules to do so.
Citroen and Peugeot never made customer cars and their WRC cars only ended up in private hands after a new model came out
Prodrive have always produced a few customer WRC cars (at a bit lower spec than the factory team) for private teams to generate extra revenue, but it is not in the rules to do so.
Citroen and Peugeot never made customer cars and their WRC cars only ended up in private hands after a new model came out
| KAX | 04-01-2006 09:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]Prodrive have always produced a few customer WRC cars (at a bit lower spec than the factory team) for private teams to generate extra revenue, but it is not in the rules to do so.
Citroen and Peugeot never made customer cars and their WRC cars only ended up in private hands after a new model came out[/QUOTE]
oh well then. could have sworn i read somewhere it was require to produce like 2,000 wrc spec cars, but i guess i was mistaken
Citroen and Peugeot never made customer cars and their WRC cars only ended up in private hands after a new model came out[/QUOTE]
oh well then. could have sworn i read somewhere it was require to produce like 2,000 wrc spec cars, but i guess i was mistaken
| Mopho | 04-01-2006 09:42 PM |
[QUOTE=KAX]oh well then. could have sworn i read somewhere it was require to produce like 2,000 wrc spec cars, but i guess i was mistaken[/QUOTE]
they have to produce 25,000 of the street car (in what ever drivetrain layout) and 2500 of the engine block being used
they have to produce 25,000 of the street car (in what ever drivetrain layout) and 2500 of the engine block being used
| Yotsuya | 04-01-2006 10:27 PM |
Regarding more standardization; here's a thread that's interesting: [URL=http://www.rallye-info.com/forum.asp?sid=0&boardid=1&action=thread&threadid=5159&new=15&page=1]http://www.rallye-info.com/forum.asp?sid=0&boardid=1&action=thread&threadid=5159&new=15&page=1[/URL]
| LastResort | 04-01-2006 11:19 PM |
My current questions:
To me the current Impreza platform appears to be "non optimal" for WRC. Is it too long? Too wide? Or is it a suspension mounting point problem? Just to heavy? What? I don't know, but given the urge for bigger in better in the US market, I fear the next Impreza iteration will be even bigger, making it less competitive in the WRC. Will Subaru bite the bullet and let the needs of the WRC team drive the development of the Impreza line? Possibly creating a less marketable car in a market that can't even spell Petter Solberg?
To me the current Impreza platform appears to be "non optimal" for WRC. Is it too long? Too wide? Or is it a suspension mounting point problem? Just to heavy? What? I don't know, but given the urge for bigger in better in the US market, I fear the next Impreza iteration will be even bigger, making it less competitive in the WRC. Will Subaru bite the bullet and let the needs of the WRC team drive the development of the Impreza line? Possibly creating a less marketable car in a market that can't even spell Petter Solberg?
| KAX | 04-01-2006 11:22 PM |
[QUOTE=LastResort]Possibly creating a less marketable car in a market that can't even spell Petter Solberg?[/QUOTE]
wait, his name isnt Peter?? when did he get the other 't'?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
wait, his name isnt Peter?? when did he get the other 't'?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
| LastResort | 04-01-2006 11:24 PM |
[QUOTE=KAX]wait, his name isnt Peter?? when did he get the other 't'?
:lol: :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]
I rest my case :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]
I rest my case :lol:
| Chromer | 04-01-2006 11:30 PM |
[QUOTE=KAX]oh well then. could have sworn i read somewhere it was require to produce like 2,000 wrc spec cars, but i guess i was mistaken[/QUOTE]
Long ago in the days of Group B, they used to have to homologate the cars by selling a certain number of similarly-equipped (not identical) cars to the public. I think the number was around 500 or so.
Long ago in the days of Group B, they used to have to homologate the cars by selling a certain number of similarly-equipped (not identical) cars to the public. I think the number was around 500 or so.
| theicewall | 04-01-2006 11:30 PM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]There is no Focus awd turbo. The only companies that currently have an awd turbo car similar in drivetrain layout to the WRC car are Mitsubishi and Subaru.[/QUOTE]
Really, then what's this [url]http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14132-1113556,00.html[/url]
and doesnt BP in BPFord stand for British Petroleum, like the gasoline company from GB?
Really, then what's this [url]http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14132-1113556,00.html[/url]
and doesnt BP in BPFord stand for British Petroleum, like the gasoline company from GB?
| LastResort | 04-01-2006 11:44 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]Really, then what's this [url]http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14132-1113556,00.html[/url]
and doesnt BP in BPFord stand for British Petroleum, like the gasoline company from GB?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Times Online]For those reasons, if you are in search of the definitive driving experience, this is not it. The new RS may be �WRC inspired� and cost �19,995, but [B]the lack of four-wheel-drive means it falls a long way short of the real thing[/B]. Subaru and Mitsubishi get much closer to their works competition cars with the more expensive four-wheel-drive Impreza and Evo families.[/QUOTE]
It's not AWD.
and doesnt BP in BPFord stand for British Petroleum, like the gasoline company from GB?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Times Online]For those reasons, if you are in search of the definitive driving experience, this is not it. The new RS may be �WRC inspired� and cost �19,995, but [B]the lack of four-wheel-drive means it falls a long way short of the real thing[/B]. Subaru and Mitsubishi get much closer to their works competition cars with the more expensive four-wheel-drive Impreza and Evo families.[/QUOTE]
It's not AWD.
| meebs | 04-02-2006 01:13 AM |
[QUOTE=wrxsubaru]I thought it was Bush that [b][size=15]dident[/size][/b] want all the votes counted in Florida for his 2000 election? :confused:
Any way i think its always a horrible idea to level the playing field just becasue someone is dominating a sport, Subaru really needs to step up there participation and development of the car.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.newburycomics.com/images/bmh/BU/463721NEWBU.jpg[/img]
Any way i think its always a horrible idea to level the playing field just becasue someone is dominating a sport, Subaru really needs to step up there participation and development of the car.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.newburycomics.com/images/bmh/BU/463721NEWBU.jpg[/img]
| KAX | 04-02-2006 01:20 AM |
[QUOTE=Chromer]Long ago in the days of Group B, they used to have to homologate the cars by selling a certain number of similarly-equipped (not identical) cars to the public. I think the number was around 500 or so.[/QUOTE]
yeh, thats what im thinking of. similarly equipped (wrc-spec so to speak) cars.
yeh, thats what im thinking of. similarly equipped (wrc-spec so to speak) cars.
| Mopho | 04-02-2006 01:54 AM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]Really, then what's this [url]http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14132-1113556,00.html[/url]
[/QUOTE]
Ya! Really!! Did you bother to read what you posted?! Here is the last paragraph for you:
[QUOTE]For those reasons, if you are in search of the definitive driving experience, this is not it. The new RS may be �WRC inspired� and cost �19,995, [b]but the lack of four-wheel-drive[/b] means it falls a long way short of the real thing. Subaru and Mitsubishi get much closer to their works competition cars with the more expensive four-wheel-drive Impreza and Evo families.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Edit: Doh! Lastresort beat me to it
[/QUOTE]
Ya! Really!! Did you bother to read what you posted?! Here is the last paragraph for you:
[QUOTE]For those reasons, if you are in search of the definitive driving experience, this is not it. The new RS may be �WRC inspired� and cost �19,995, [b]but the lack of four-wheel-drive[/b] means it falls a long way short of the real thing. Subaru and Mitsubishi get much closer to their works competition cars with the more expensive four-wheel-drive Impreza and Evo families.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Edit: Doh! Lastresort beat me to it
| Rallycarperson | 04-02-2006 09:57 AM |
For me, the WRC wasn't as fun to watch ever since the introduction of the WRC class. A few months ago I poped in some old early 90s WRC videos, and man was it cool to watch. Yes, todays cars are fast, but with all of those electronic diffs and everything, its just not as cool to watch anymore.
I would love to see todays WRC cars having 350-400hp, a regular manual gearbox, and non electronic simple diffs.
~Mark
I would love to see todays WRC cars having 350-400hp, a regular manual gearbox, and non electronic simple diffs.
~Mark
| WagonMonster | 04-02-2006 10:07 AM |
[QUOTE=Rallycarperson]A few months ago I poped in some old early 90s WRC videos[/QUOTE]
Poped? :confused:
[IMG]http://www.williwood.com/images/misc/evilpope.jpg[/IMG]
But seriously, as Mopho said, Loeb's just the best right now. Like Makinen in the 90's, like Gronholm in the early 2000's, like The Bulls when Jordan played. They have that magic combination of driver and car that just works.
Although, I see Gronholm coming back out on top in the next year or two, he's doing great and he has a great car.
Poped? :confused:
[IMG]http://www.williwood.com/images/misc/evilpope.jpg[/IMG]
But seriously, as Mopho said, Loeb's just the best right now. Like Makinen in the 90's, like Gronholm in the early 2000's, like The Bulls when Jordan played. They have that magic combination of driver and car that just works.
Although, I see Gronholm coming back out on top in the next year or two, he's doing great and he has a great car.
| theicewall | 04-02-2006 11:33 AM |
[QUOTE=Mopho]Ya! Really!! Did you bother to read what you posted?! Here is the last paragraph for you:
:rolleyes:
Edit: Doh! Lastresort beat me to it[/QUOTE]
So then Ford should be allowed a FWD turbo. I was pretty sure that there still are homologation rules which is why subaru still makes 2.0L's.
:rolleyes:
Edit: Doh! Lastresort beat me to it[/QUOTE]
So then Ford should be allowed a FWD turbo. I was pretty sure that there still are homologation rules which is why subaru still makes 2.0L's.
| Rallycarperson | 04-02-2006 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE=WagonMonster]Poped? :confused:[/QUOTE]
Popped...you gramAr nazi! :p
~Mark
Popped...you gramAr nazi! :p
~Mark
| theicewall | 04-02-2006 03:56 PM |
There's no more electronic diff anymore. The cars are essentially 4wd with a locked dif to the best of my knowledge.
| wrxsubaru | 04-02-2006 05:54 PM |
[QUOTE=meebs][img]http://www.newburycomics.com/images/bmh/BU/463721NEWBU.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Maybe i should ask my thermodynamics, statics, or calculus teacher to teach me to spell, ow wait they spell worse than me.
Maybe i should ask my thermodynamics, statics, or calculus teacher to teach me to spell, ow wait they spell worse than me.
| Mopho | 04-02-2006 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]There's no more electronic diff anymore. The cars are essentially 4wd with a locked dif to the best of my knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Diffs are not locked, the center diff is still active, the front and rear are mechanical limited slip type
[QUOTE] was pretty sure that there still are homologation rules which is why subaru still makes 2.0L's.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the engine blocks have to be homologated. The manufacturer has to make 2500 production 2.0l blocks in the street cars.
[QUOTE]So then Ford should be allowed a FWD turbo.[/QUOTE]
There is a Focus cup (non turbo) championship in many countries
The whole point of the WRC class is to allow companies to compete at the top level of the sport without having to produce an awd turbo version of the car.
Yes, it would be nice if more manufacturers produced cars, like the WRX or Evo, but the cost to design, tool, manufacturer, advertise, etc such a car is not worth it for such a limited market car, especially considering the current automotive climate.
If car companies had to build a homologated awd turbo car for WRC there would likely have been even less companies participating the past few years
Diffs are not locked, the center diff is still active, the front and rear are mechanical limited slip type
[QUOTE] was pretty sure that there still are homologation rules which is why subaru still makes 2.0L's.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the engine blocks have to be homologated. The manufacturer has to make 2500 production 2.0l blocks in the street cars.
[QUOTE]So then Ford should be allowed a FWD turbo.[/QUOTE]
There is a Focus cup (non turbo) championship in many countries
The whole point of the WRC class is to allow companies to compete at the top level of the sport without having to produce an awd turbo version of the car.
Yes, it would be nice if more manufacturers produced cars, like the WRX or Evo, but the cost to design, tool, manufacturer, advertise, etc such a car is not worth it for such a limited market car, especially considering the current automotive climate.
If car companies had to build a homologated awd turbo car for WRC there would likely have been even less companies participating the past few years
| KAX | 04-02-2006 06:05 PM |
[QUOTE=wrxsubaru]Maybe i should ask my thermodynamics, statics, or calculus teacher to teach me to spell, ow wait they spell worse than me.[/QUOTE]
just be lucky they speak english.
just be lucky they speak english.
| theicewall | 04-02-2006 06:46 PM |
Engrish 101? That's what half of my professors and MD's speak to me in.
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