| turbodreams | 11-10-2004 01:56 PM |
STX prepped cars...slalom, skidpad scores??
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does anyone have skidpad G's, slalom mph for subaru WRXs fully prepped for STX class? (suspension, etc.)
would an STX car be faster around say, an autoX than a WRX STi?
would an STX car be faster around say, an autoX than a WRX STi?
| KC | 11-10-2004 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE=turbodreams]does anyone have skidpad G's, slalom mph for subaru WRXs fully prepped for STX class? (suspension, etc.)
would an STX car be faster around say, an autoX than a WRX STi?[/QUOTE]
An STX WRX should *never* be faster than a fully prepped AS STi or STU STi or ESP Sti, considering drivers of equal talent.
There are some numbers buried somewhere... I think trhoppe and a couple others had then done... try a search for them in here or in Suspension forum.
--kC
would an STX car be faster around say, an autoX than a WRX STi?[/QUOTE]
An STX WRX should *never* be faster than a fully prepped AS STi or STU STi or ESP Sti, considering drivers of equal talent.
There are some numbers buried somewhere... I think trhoppe and a couple others had then done... try a search for them in here or in Suspension forum.
--kC
| rockt104 | 11-10-2004 02:43 PM |
I think his question was more "Does a WRX with STX modifications perform better than a stock STi w/ street tires (Prepped WRX vs stock STi)"...and I believe that the answer is yes, and I could be way off about his question.
Kevin
Kevin
| turbodreams | 11-10-2004 02:58 PM |
[QUOTE=rockt104]I think his question was more "Does a WRX with STX modifications perform better than a stock STi w/ street tires (Prepped WRX vs stock STi)"...and I believe that the answer is yes, and I could be way off about his question.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
yes, this is what im asking :)
Kevin[/QUOTE]
yes, this is what im asking :)
| afpdl | 11-10-2004 03:13 PM |
You may be able to get it to slalom a little faster, dont know about course times though.
| dwx | 11-10-2004 03:17 PM |
I think a STX prepped WRX would be faster on some courses, but it would be close. I've driven a nationally prepped STX WRX and a stock STI. The stock STI is still a faster car from a power perspective, no question. Maybe in the 1/4 mile they would run similar times, but the STI has a big torque advantage and has a front LSD.
Cornering and slaloms are where the difference in suspension tuning will come out. I'd guess an STX prepped WRX would hit 1g or close to it on a skidpad. There are generally more corners than straights on an autocross course, that's why I think it would be very close.
Cornering and slaloms are where the difference in suspension tuning will come out. I'd guess an STX prepped WRX would hit 1g or close to it on a skidpad. There are generally more corners than straights on an autocross course, that's why I think it would be very close.
| KC | 11-10-2004 03:23 PM |
[QUOTE=rockt104]I think his question was more "Does a WRX with STX modifications perform better than a stock STi w/ street tires (Prepped WRX vs stock STi)"...and I believe that the answer is yes, and I could be way off about his question.
Kevin[/QUOTE]
You're talking apples and oranges here. Two different cars... I contend an STX prepped WRX vs a stock STi, on the same tires, will be a tough fight. There's too many variables to say one is better/worse than the other when comparing an STX WRX vs a totally stock STi. I would say it's a tie.
1st off, an STX WRX will never put the same power to the ground as an STi.
What makes up for that is suspension. The STi has an 'ok' suspension whereas you can get a great WRX set-up for STX. Brakes.. again, almost a draw... on street tires, it;'s how long before you get into ABS that's the issue. If they both do it at the same time... it's a draw.
So it comes down to course design.. and where the STi goes into 3rd, or if it has to.
--kC
Kevin[/QUOTE]
You're talking apples and oranges here. Two different cars... I contend an STX prepped WRX vs a stock STi, on the same tires, will be a tough fight. There's too many variables to say one is better/worse than the other when comparing an STX WRX vs a totally stock STi. I would say it's a tie.
1st off, an STX WRX will never put the same power to the ground as an STi.
What makes up for that is suspension. The STi has an 'ok' suspension whereas you can get a great WRX set-up for STX. Brakes.. again, almost a draw... on street tires, it;'s how long before you get into ABS that's the issue. If they both do it at the same time... it's a draw.
So it comes down to course design.. and where the STi goes into 3rd, or if it has to.
--kC
| Rich10 | 11-10-2004 03:24 PM |
Since you could match the STi's sticky tires, and include stiffer springs, struts, swaybars, bushings, camber plates, etc. with a custom alignment that maximizes negative camber, I would think that a "fully prepped" WRX would be faster in a slalom and skidpad than a stock STi. The STX would be down on power vs the STi though.
Since, IMHO, most autox courses favor handling over power, my money would be on the "fully prepped" STX WRX.
Edited for spelling
Since, IMHO, most autox courses favor handling over power, my money would be on the "fully prepped" STX WRX.
Edited for spelling
| BriDrive | 11-10-2004 03:51 PM |
This may or may not answer the question:
A fully prepped STX WRX with all bells and whistles and STX tires will undoubtedly have a higher skid pad number than a bone stock STI on RE070's.
I am certain this "STX WRX" could SUSTAIN at least .95 ~ 1.1 G's on a 200/300 ft radius skid pad. The STI has scored around .87 ~ .89 G's IIRC.
Does this translate to FASTER slalom times.....No, it simply gives you a lateral acceleration number.
I have a MILDLY prepared STX WRX and have , through dash mounted g-meters, registered numbers well over 1.2 G's in 90 degree 30-40 mph corners....granted, these meters are indisputably less than "precise" and not sustained loading..... there's a really big difference between raw skidpad numbers which read sustained speed around a given radius AND quick change lane manouvering, auto-x slaloms, etc.
BriDrive
A fully prepped STX WRX with all bells and whistles and STX tires will undoubtedly have a higher skid pad number than a bone stock STI on RE070's.
I am certain this "STX WRX" could SUSTAIN at least .95 ~ 1.1 G's on a 200/300 ft radius skid pad. The STI has scored around .87 ~ .89 G's IIRC.
Does this translate to FASTER slalom times.....No, it simply gives you a lateral acceleration number.
I have a MILDLY prepared STX WRX and have , through dash mounted g-meters, registered numbers well over 1.2 G's in 90 degree 30-40 mph corners....granted, these meters are indisputably less than "precise" and not sustained loading..... there's a really big difference between raw skidpad numbers which read sustained speed around a given radius AND quick change lane manouvering, auto-x slaloms, etc.
BriDrive
| dowroa | 11-10-2004 04:21 PM |
I am not a master of this. I do not pretend to be a National level driver. However, my STi is completely stock. This was one event, but Tom was at it in his WRX, and I was there in my STi.
My car is running worn RE070s. I think Tom was on mostly dead cheater tires.
However:
Tom Hoppe -- STX -- 45.25
Brian Herring -- STU -- 46.30
-- In the Challenge later that day -- 45.372
So, with a better driver in my car, I think it is still an even comparison to the STi having a slight advantage.
Just some data and a slight comparison.
- dow
[url]http://www.subaruchallenge.com/SE3/ATL_Class_Results.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.subaruchallenge.com/SE3/ATL_Superstar.pdf[/url]
My car is running worn RE070s. I think Tom was on mostly dead cheater tires.
However:
Tom Hoppe -- STX -- 45.25
Brian Herring -- STU -- 46.30
-- In the Challenge later that day -- 45.372
So, with a better driver in my car, I think it is still an even comparison to the STi having a slight advantage.
Just some data and a slight comparison.
- dow
[url]http://www.subaruchallenge.com/SE3/ATL_Class_Results.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.subaruchallenge.com/SE3/ATL_Superstar.pdf[/url]
| trhoppe | 11-10-2004 04:32 PM |
A dead stock STi, I mean dead stock off the showroom floor, would be a dead heat with Biggly's (my) STX WRX.
Once you put an alignment on it, it would beat my car, and I've done it before. By a good amount too. 0.5 secs or so.
dow - we were on fully corded azenis ;) Had at least a second in the car on real tires. Plus I ran 44.8 in exhibition with cord all around one of the tires.
-Tom
Once you put an alignment on it, it would beat my car, and I've done it before. By a good amount too. 0.5 secs or so.
dow - we were on fully corded azenis ;) Had at least a second in the car on real tires. Plus I ran 44.8 in exhibition with cord all around one of the tires.
-Tom
| BriDrive | 11-10-2004 04:37 PM |
Well, there you go "turbodreams".........buy a WRX, dump, say $8,000 - $12,000 in it to bring it to national level STX spec AND you to have a car capable of being a half second slower than an STI. :lol:
Ain't auto-x fun though.......................
BriDrive
Ain't auto-x fun though.......................
BriDrive
| cooleyjb | 11-10-2004 05:15 PM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive]Well, there you go "turbodreams".........buy a WRX, dump, say $8,000 - $12,000 in it to bring it to national level STX spec AND you to have a car capable of being a half second slower than an STI. :lol:
Ain't auto-x fun though.......................
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
Of course you just have to PAX score it and you can justify the 8-12,000 or if you're good at srounging 5,000.
Ain't auto-x fun though.......................
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
Of course you just have to PAX score it and you can justify the 8-12,000 or if you're good at srounging 5,000.
| afpdl | 11-10-2004 05:16 PM |
What the hell could you do in stx to total 12k? What couldnt you do with 8k?
| zinc99 | 11-10-2004 06:19 PM |
Does this big differnce come from the tranny or the power?
| KC | 11-10-2004 06:19 PM |
Magic.
| KC | 11-10-2004 06:20 PM |
Power + handling.
| forced4 | 11-10-2004 06:46 PM |
I don't see how a stock STi could out handle a prepped WRX?
| MNbiker | 11-10-2004 07:02 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]A dead stock STi, I mean dead stock off the showroom floor, would be a dead heat with Biggly's (my) STX WRX.
Once you put an alignment on it, it would beat my car, and I've done it before. By a good amount too. 0.5 secs or so.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Earlier this year, I ran back-to-back tests with my very well-prepped STX car, versus an STi that was completely stock, except for a good alignment and a cat-back exhaust. Both cars were on fairly fresh tires - mine on 225/45-17 Azenis, the STi on stock tires. It was a laid-back local event, so I was able to go from one car directly to the other. The course was reasonably fast, with a couple sections requiring either a shift in the STi or riding the rev limiter pretty hard. The course was only moderately technical. After alternating 4 runs in each car, I was nearly a second faster in the STi.
IMHO a stock STi would absolutely smoke a top STX car on a smaller, tighter course, due to the huge torque advantage and the better diff's.
On a more technical course and/or one that requires the STi to shift to 3rd multiple times, the difference might be less.
-Steve
Once you put an alignment on it, it would beat my car, and I've done it before. By a good amount too. 0.5 secs or so.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Earlier this year, I ran back-to-back tests with my very well-prepped STX car, versus an STi that was completely stock, except for a good alignment and a cat-back exhaust. Both cars were on fairly fresh tires - mine on 225/45-17 Azenis, the STi on stock tires. It was a laid-back local event, so I was able to go from one car directly to the other. The course was reasonably fast, with a couple sections requiring either a shift in the STi or riding the rev limiter pretty hard. The course was only moderately technical. After alternating 4 runs in each car, I was nearly a second faster in the STi.
IMHO a stock STi would absolutely smoke a top STX car on a smaller, tighter course, due to the huge torque advantage and the better diff's.
On a more technical course and/or one that requires the STi to shift to 3rd multiple times, the difference might be less.
-Steve
| cooleyjb | 11-10-2004 07:08 PM |
[QUOTE=afpdl]What the hell could you do in stx to total 12k? What couldnt you do with 8k?[/QUOTE]
Tein RAs/JIC's etc 2200 (We could go with Ohlins or something equvialent for 5000)
Sways and all hardware. 800
Superlight wheels. 2000 (I'm sure you could find some for cheaper but we're going all out.)
Tires 800
BBK 2000
I'm at 7800 now and haven't even touched the engine.
12000 in STX if you are buying all new parts would be easy to get to in my opinion
joe
Tein RAs/JIC's etc 2200 (We could go with Ohlins or something equvialent for 5000)
Sways and all hardware. 800
Superlight wheels. 2000 (I'm sure you could find some for cheaper but we're going all out.)
Tires 800
BBK 2000
I'm at 7800 now and haven't even touched the engine.
12000 in STX if you are buying all new parts would be easy to get to in my opinion
joe
| TheWRX | 11-10-2004 07:34 PM |
[QUOTE=forced4]I don't see how a stock STi could out handle a prepped WRX?[/QUOTE]
The part you don't get with an STX prepped WRX are all the trick LSD's.
Last year my codriver ran my WRX and a bone stock STi (stock tires, no alignment) back to back on the same course a number of times. I did once. The times were generally close, sometimes one car was a few tenth faster, sometimes the other.
The part you don't get with an STX prepped WRX are all the trick LSD's.
Last year my codriver ran my WRX and a bone stock STi (stock tires, no alignment) back to back on the same course a number of times. I did once. The times were generally close, sometimes one car was a few tenth faster, sometimes the other.
| AlpineFD | 11-10-2004 11:12 PM |
At the end of the day the AS STi is still a streetable car, where as the STX wrx ....
| DrBiggly | 11-10-2004 11:48 PM |
I prepped my car for around $2700 and was a touch faster than KC's wagon at the MD Subaru Challenge...not to mention mine probably weighed more than his; power was probably going to KC as he had headers. You can prep one for local and regional that's quite fast without spending $12k if you look around for used stuff and get creative. :)
P.S. KC was having an off day and/or trying to make the rest of us feel better :D :)
As for this argument's originality the STi is just going to be faster than an STX WRX given equal drivers on most courses. There are some courses that the WRX would be faster on but rather few and far between if you ask me. The STi just *is* that awesome right out of the box. :)
P.S. KC was having an off day and/or trying to make the rest of us feel better :D :)
As for this argument's originality the STi is just going to be faster than an STX WRX given equal drivers on most courses. There are some courses that the WRX would be faster on but rather few and far between if you ask me. The STi just *is* that awesome right out of the box. :)
| jcroy66 | 11-11-2004 08:11 AM |
[QUOTE=AlpineFD]At the end of the day the AS STi is still a streetable car, where as the STX wrx ....[/QUOTE]
... is my daily driver. :rolleyes:
... is my daily driver. :rolleyes:
| Draken | 11-11-2004 08:41 AM |
and a medium prepped ESP/STU STi is also super fun as a daily driver...not.
Chris H.
'04 STi (esp/stu/sm)
Chris H.
'04 STi (esp/stu/sm)
| TheWRX | 11-11-2004 09:20 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]... is my daily driver. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Same here. Mine has never seen a trailer, took it as far as Ft. Myers (close to 1200 miles one way) with tires on the back seat. And I drive it to work every day.
Even though, at one event, I kind of wished I had brought it on a trailer! :furious:
Same here. Mine has never seen a trailer, took it as far as Ft. Myers (close to 1200 miles one way) with tires on the back seat. And I drive it to work every day.
Even though, at one event, I kind of wished I had brought it on a trailer! :furious:
| KC | 11-11-2004 09:56 AM |
[QUOTE=TheWRX]Same here. Mine has never seen a trailer, took it as far as Ft. Myers (close to 1200 miles one way) with tires on the back seat. And I drive it to work every day.
Even though, at one event, I kind of wished I had brought it on a trailer! :furious:[/QUOTE]
That's the only reason mine was trailered to events... that 'one' event that something could go wrong. ;)
I found this pic when looking to clear space off my site.. through it was funny... made it years ago and totally forgot about it...
[IMG]http://www.rallydecals.com/kcpics/bigwheel.jpg[/IMG]
Even though, at one event, I kind of wished I had brought it on a trailer! :furious:[/QUOTE]
That's the only reason mine was trailered to events... that 'one' event that something could go wrong. ;)
I found this pic when looking to clear space off my site.. through it was funny... made it years ago and totally forgot about it...
[IMG]http://www.rallydecals.com/kcpics/bigwheel.jpg[/IMG]
| trhoppe | 11-11-2004 11:25 AM |
I love the support vehicle and will try to trailer as much as possible next year. Canning 2nd gear in Maryland w/o the tow kaa there and having to drive to NC back to MD back to NC was not fun.
Also, you could have a 12K STX car easily. Just like you could have a 20K STX car if you wanted to. Right now, our ESP build for a top level national STi will be right at 10K, but give me more budget and I will spend it.
-Tom
Also, you could have a 12K STX car easily. Just like you could have a 20K STX car if you wanted to. Right now, our ESP build for a top level national STi will be right at 10K, but give me more budget and I will spend it.
-Tom
| mlambert | 11-11-2004 09:51 PM |
This actually turned out to be a cool thread.
| makofoto | 11-12-2004 12:35 AM |
My SM WRX ... is closer to an STX car then a "real" SM car ... with it's extra boost it probably has 300 crank hp. It was Rotora Big Brakes in front ... and a RevLab steering rack ... I usually run 225/45/17 Azenis. I've run my 225/45/17 Hoosiers only at a couple of local "championship" events. (I've got to save those expensive suckers!)
On a unusually cool night on July ... my GeezCube data acquisition device told me that I was pulling up to 1.2 G's with new Hoosiers. The Hoosiers never came up to temperature on this particular very short 30+ second course. But I was the fastest Suby out of about 23 WRX's ... including a number of STX WRX's ... also beat 7 STI's ... two of which were running in SM, I know at least one of them had extra boost. The other was driven my a 1 Lap of American Driver. That evening, I also beat 6 Evo's ... including 2 Road & Track drivers in a Evo MR and a EVO 8 driven by the soon to be ESPL National Champ.
In the past 8 autocrosses ... I believe I've only twice been slightly beaten by a stock STI (running 245/45/17 Azenis). Only once was I running Hoosiers. Now "everyone" is starting to prep their STI's and Evo's ... so my days are numbered. I do however also get spanked by a particular well prepped STS Impreza RS ... that is driven by a fellow who in our last two local Championship events has beaten Ken Motonishi ... 2X Solo2 National STS Champ (I believe) and current ProSolo STS National Champ. This driver has been coming in 2nd in PAX ... after current ProSolo Champ Tom Berry (something like 6 time Solo2 National Champ?) ... out of something like 250 drivers. But hey, I've only been doing this for less then a year ... and I'm old ... :-) ie. decently prepped WRX driven by someone like me CAN beat stock+ STI's ...
On a unusually cool night on July ... my GeezCube data acquisition device told me that I was pulling up to 1.2 G's with new Hoosiers. The Hoosiers never came up to temperature on this particular very short 30+ second course. But I was the fastest Suby out of about 23 WRX's ... including a number of STX WRX's ... also beat 7 STI's ... two of which were running in SM, I know at least one of them had extra boost. The other was driven my a 1 Lap of American Driver. That evening, I also beat 6 Evo's ... including 2 Road & Track drivers in a Evo MR and a EVO 8 driven by the soon to be ESPL National Champ.
In the past 8 autocrosses ... I believe I've only twice been slightly beaten by a stock STI (running 245/45/17 Azenis). Only once was I running Hoosiers. Now "everyone" is starting to prep their STI's and Evo's ... so my days are numbered. I do however also get spanked by a particular well prepped STS Impreza RS ... that is driven by a fellow who in our last two local Championship events has beaten Ken Motonishi ... 2X Solo2 National STS Champ (I believe) and current ProSolo STS National Champ. This driver has been coming in 2nd in PAX ... after current ProSolo Champ Tom Berry (something like 6 time Solo2 National Champ?) ... out of something like 250 drivers. But hey, I've only been doing this for less then a year ... and I'm old ... :-) ie. decently prepped WRX driven by someone like me CAN beat stock+ STI's ...
| cooleyjb | 11-12-2004 05:26 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]My SM WRX ... is closer to an STX car then a "real" SM car ... with it's extra boost it probably has 300 crank hp. It was Rotora Big Brakes in front ... and a RevLab steering rack ... I usually run 225/45/17 Azenis. I've run my 225/45/17 Hoosiers only at a couple of local "championship" events. (I've got to save those expensive suckers!)
On a unusually cool night on July ... my GeezCube data acquisition device told me that I was pulling up to 1.2 G's with new Hoosiers. The Hoosiers never came up to temperature on this particular very short 30+ second course. But I was the fastest Suby out of about 23 WRX's ... including a number of STX WRX's ... also beat 7 STI's ... two of which were running in SM, I know at least one of them had extra boost. The other was driven my a 1 Lap of American Driver. That evening, I also beat 6 Evo's ... including 2 Road & Track drivers in a Evo MR and a EVO 8 driven by the soon to be ESPL National Champ.
In the past 8 autocrosses ... I believe I've only twice been slightly beaten by a stock STI (running 245/45/17 Azenis). Only once was I running Hoosiers. Now "everyone" is starting to prep their STI's and Evo's ... so my days are numbered. I do however also get spanked by a particular well prepped STS Impreza RS ... that is driven by a fellow who in our last two local Championship events has beaten Ken Motonishi ... 2X Solo2 National STS Champ (I believe) and current ProSolo STS National Champ. This driver has been coming in 2nd in PAX ... after current ProSolo Champ Tom Berry (something like 6 time Solo2 National Champ?) ... out of something like 250 drivers. But hey, I've only been doing this for less then a year ... and I'm old ... :-)[/QUOTE]
yeah yeah yeah
you forget to realize the roof rail delete is where you are really picking up time :D
On a unusually cool night on July ... my GeezCube data acquisition device told me that I was pulling up to 1.2 G's with new Hoosiers. The Hoosiers never came up to temperature on this particular very short 30+ second course. But I was the fastest Suby out of about 23 WRX's ... including a number of STX WRX's ... also beat 7 STI's ... two of which were running in SM, I know at least one of them had extra boost. The other was driven my a 1 Lap of American Driver. That evening, I also beat 6 Evo's ... including 2 Road & Track drivers in a Evo MR and a EVO 8 driven by the soon to be ESPL National Champ.
In the past 8 autocrosses ... I believe I've only twice been slightly beaten by a stock STI (running 245/45/17 Azenis). Only once was I running Hoosiers. Now "everyone" is starting to prep their STI's and Evo's ... so my days are numbered. I do however also get spanked by a particular well prepped STS Impreza RS ... that is driven by a fellow who in our last two local Championship events has beaten Ken Motonishi ... 2X Solo2 National STS Champ (I believe) and current ProSolo STS National Champ. This driver has been coming in 2nd in PAX ... after current ProSolo Champ Tom Berry (something like 6 time Solo2 National Champ?) ... out of something like 250 drivers. But hey, I've only been doing this for less then a year ... and I'm old ... :-)[/QUOTE]
yeah yeah yeah
you forget to realize the roof rail delete is where you are really picking up time :D
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