| trhoppe | 08-04-2005 01:17 PM |
WRX/STi cage and dash bar question
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Question for anyone on here that might have done a WRX/STi cage with a dash bar. Is there enough room *behind* the dash to squeeze a bar in there w/o taking the whole entire dash pad + electronics out, or do we have to cut/move/relocate crap and have the bar go through the dash?
Dammit, this is going to make the build a lot harder, I thought the dash bar was "recommended" and not "required".......:furious:
-Tom
Dammit, this is going to make the build a lot harder, I thought the dash bar was "recommended" and not "required".......:furious:
-Tom
| Corey | 08-04-2005 01:24 PM |
PM'ed.
P.S. Should have gone to Phoenix... :lol: Shame on you for having a budget.
Corey #89 STS
P.S. Should have gone to Phoenix... :lol: Shame on you for having a budget.
Corey #89 STS
| trhoppe | 08-04-2005 01:31 PM |
[QUOTE=Corey]PM'ed.
P.S. Should have gone to Phoenix... :lol: Shame on you for having a budget.
Corey #89 STS[/QUOTE]
I don't have a cage budget ;) I have a minimum towing distance I'll go for cage work. Its going to the badassest place in Atl to get the cage work done. They have never done a Subaru cage though :(
-Tom
P.S. Should have gone to Phoenix... :lol: Shame on you for having a budget.
Corey #89 STS[/QUOTE]
I don't have a cage budget ;) I have a minimum towing distance I'll go for cage work. Its going to the badassest place in Atl to get the cage work done. They have never done a Subaru cage though :(
-Tom
| randy zimmer | 08-04-2005 01:52 PM |
A cage for what use?
The car isn't stripped and bare now?
The car isn't stripped and bare now?
| trhoppe | 08-04-2005 02:12 PM |
SCCA touring, T2. Its basically "showroom stock" with a few bolt ons. We have to keep all carpet, sound deadening, undercoating, etc.
The car is completely together right now. Teardown starts tonight and its going to the cage shop on monday. The idea, while I thought the dash bar was "recommended", was to pull everything except for the HVAC/wiring under the dash. Looks like I will be just gutting the entire inside of the car, which kinda sucks, but gotta do what you gotta do :)
-Tom
The car is completely together right now. Teardown starts tonight and its going to the cage shop on monday. The idea, while I thought the dash bar was "recommended", was to pull everything except for the HVAC/wiring under the dash. Looks like I will be just gutting the entire inside of the car, which kinda sucks, but gotta do what you gotta do :)
-Tom
| WRX8XB | 08-04-2005 03:21 PM |
well good luck with that.
Post pics!
Post pics!
| turboICE | 08-04-2005 05:21 PM |
Put the dash bar in the exact place that the current cross support bar is behind the dash - have fittings added for steering column.
| tm999xxx | 08-04-2005 05:26 PM |
now i know why im not getting a response for my seats being shipped :o
[QUOTE]Put the dash bar in the exact place that the current cross support bar is behind the dash - have fittings added for steering column.[/QUOTE]
ed your helpin the guy who caused me not to buy your seats :lol:
[QUOTE]Put the dash bar in the exact place that the current cross support bar is behind the dash - have fittings added for steering column.[/QUOTE]
ed your helpin the guy who caused me not to buy your seats :lol:
| trhoppe | 08-04-2005 06:07 PM |
[QUOTE=tm999xxx]now i know why im not getting a response for my seats being shipped :o
ed your helpin the guy who caused me not to buy your seats :lol:[/QUOTE]
OT: Hmmm, Miranda should have been shipping your seats today. Lemme check for tracking #s.
-Tom
ed your helpin the guy who caused me not to buy your seats :lol:[/QUOTE]
OT: Hmmm, Miranda should have been shipping your seats today. Lemme check for tracking #s.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 08-04-2005 06:08 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Put the dash bar in the exact place that the current cross support bar is behind the dash - have fittings added for steering column.[/QUOTE]
Ahh, so the steering column is the only things that attaches to that sucker? I don't remember from the last time I had the dash apart. If thats so, then heck yes, that will be the solution! I was assuming I would have to run an additional one as this one was too involved in teh wiring, hvac and crap.
Or I could just have them weld extensions from that bar to the cage :lol: :ghetto:
-Tom
Ahh, so the steering column is the only things that attaches to that sucker? I don't remember from the last time I had the dash apart. If thats so, then heck yes, that will be the solution! I was assuming I would have to run an additional one as this one was too involved in teh wiring, hvac and crap.
Or I could just have them weld extensions from that bar to the cage :lol: :ghetto:
-Tom
| randy zimmer | 08-04-2005 08:02 PM |
If the new bodies are anything like GCs, to service the heater and A/C, you need to remove that bar.
It is also completely covered and hidden when assembled.
rz
It is also completely covered and hidden when assembled.
rz
| JC_595 | 08-04-2005 08:23 PM |
On our 04, the FIA Custom Cages design we have the dash bar directly replaced the stock bolt in dash bar. The only fab mod really was the steering column mount needed to be made. Rather easy though. The dash went back in OK, but had to be trimmed around the A pillar tubing & the A pillar cross tubing supports(but I dont think you have those in road course stuff- mines rally).
The heater box HAD to go in BEFORE welding the dash bar in place though. Otherwise it would have been a real bear to try to get it in. It was suggested by several people to do it that way. I dont know how to service it without removing that bar.
Good luck,.
JC
The heater box HAD to go in BEFORE welding the dash bar in place though. Otherwise it would have been a real bear to try to get it in. It was suggested by several people to do it that way. I dont know how to service it without removing that bar.
Good luck,.
JC
| norexyet | 08-04-2005 09:50 PM |
Yea im about to start doing my cage in my car. I choose to do it myself for experience sake and to say i made it. Im doing 8 point cage in .120" DOM tubing. Tig welding in some spots should be really interesting, may just Mig it. Good luck man, and post pics
| mykrrrr | 08-04-2005 10:21 PM |
What JC said. The heater box is the bish in the equation.
-mykr.
-mykr.
| trhoppe | 08-04-2005 11:31 PM |
Unfortunately as I found out this afternoon, rules do not permit removal or modification of that stock bar and that is a protestable offense and is being looked at.
The two choices we have are
a) to run the bar close and up on the firewall and put some bends in it, just to get it to pass legally
or
b) try to run it below the steering column, through the radio and through the glovebox.
Dunno if b) is a possibility, but I will try for a) as I think it will be a LOT neater and I think we can tuck that thing out of the way somewhere. I was told there was no rules on the amount of bends in that, but that it has to be horizontal.
-Tom
The two choices we have are
a) to run the bar close and up on the firewall and put some bends in it, just to get it to pass legally
or
b) try to run it below the steering column, through the radio and through the glovebox.
Dunno if b) is a possibility, but I will try for a) as I think it will be a LOT neater and I think we can tuck that thing out of the way somewhere. I was told there was no rules on the amount of bends in that, but that it has to be horizontal.
-Tom
| erikl2002wrx | 08-05-2005 09:39 AM |
I'm in the process of having a cage built for T2/T3 club racing also. I'm running into a problem with the rear supports. At the moment it looks as if they are going to run through the rear seat. Have you located these yet and if so please advise?
Thanks,
Erik
Thanks,
Erik
| trhoppe | 08-05-2005 11:14 AM |
[QUOTE=erikl2002wrx]At the moment it looks as if they are going to run through the rear seat.
Thanks,
Erik[/QUOTE]
Yup. You got it :)
-Tom
Thanks,
Erik[/QUOTE]
Yup. You got it :)
-Tom
| turboICE | 08-05-2005 11:24 AM |
I am 99% confident you can replace the bolt in bar with the roll cage dash bar in Touring. If in doubt write the SCCA. I know the rule only states front and rear hoop braces - but when I asked on the Touring boards the unanimous response was that you can fit the dash bar as well. As long as it is not a convoluted interpretation of the rules - fitting the roll cage properly and safely will give you allowances on other aspects of the rules.
The bar is required, they have to make allowances for its inclusion. Replacing the bolt-in bar is the only feasible way that makes any sense. It couldn't go anyplace else in the dash without requiring gutting and above the dash is not a good answer. Below the dash is obviously worse.
Ed.
The bar is required, they have to make allowances for its inclusion. Replacing the bolt-in bar is the only feasible way that makes any sense. It couldn't go anyplace else in the dash without requiring gutting and above the dash is not a good answer. Below the dash is obviously worse.
Ed.
| trhoppe | 08-05-2005 11:31 AM |
Well I was told that this dash bar, while with screws, also mounts to the chassis in several other points, so we are modifying that.
Let me make a little phone call to the CRB.
-Tom
Let me make a little phone call to the CRB.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 08-05-2005 11:42 AM |
Aight, got off the phone with the CBR. Removing, messing with, welding to, and replacing that dash bar *is* illegal, as the thing contains chassis mounting points.
I was given another option, which was to run the dash bar above the dash right next to the windshield. It would go right over the top of the VIN plate area and follow the curve of the windshield around. You wouldn't need to pad it that way and it wouldn't get in the way. It would also require no cutting of any HVAC stuff.
-Tom
I was given another option, which was to run the dash bar above the dash right next to the windshield. It would go right over the top of the VIN plate area and follow the curve of the windshield around. You wouldn't need to pad it that way and it wouldn't get in the way. It would also require no cutting of any HVAC stuff.
-Tom
| Protege Menace | 08-05-2005 11:44 AM |
why do you need a cage again?
| turboICE | 08-05-2005 11:54 AM |
I hate the GCR... Well it is good to know (and also why you should always call SCCA instead of asking on boards) that this is their position. I think it is a bad position but at least it is known - though there are many Touring competitors that don't know that this is the position.
I would like their definition of chasis mounting points and their objection. It is connected at each end to the a-pillars, that is it.
Again, good to know and not the first or last time I am wrong in my reading of the rules which is why a call is always good.
I would like their definition of chasis mounting points and their objection. It is connected at each end to the a-pillars, that is it.
Again, good to know and not the first or last time I am wrong in my reading of the rules which is why a call is always good.
| turboICE | 08-05-2005 11:57 AM |
If they gave you a section number reference I would like to see it - because I can't find where in the rules it would be clear to a builder that the rule is as they communicated it to you on the phone.
| trhoppe | 08-05-2005 12:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Protege Menace]why do you need a cage again?[/QUOTE]
So that the driver will not die.
[quote]If they gave you a section number reference I would like to see it - because I can't find where in the rules it would be clear to a builder that the rule is as they communicated it to you on the phone.[/quote] I was told that the reason this dash bar could not be removed/replaced is because you weren't explicitly allowed to do it. Also the "# of mounting points" section was referenced. Now I was not aware that the only two mounting points *are* the A pillars. Those two mounting points would be removed and the new dash bar would mount to the down tubes, so I guess it could maybe fly. I also called a multi time national champ who informed me that he does not believe messing with that bar is legal, as its part of the stock chassis and you can't muck with it in SS or T racing. Apparently there will be protests.
I think I might just leave all this up to the cage shop instead of worrying about it :p
a) Drop car off
b) Write check
c) Pick up car
d) ?????
e) Profit!
-Tom
So that the driver will not die.
[quote]If they gave you a section number reference I would like to see it - because I can't find where in the rules it would be clear to a builder that the rule is as they communicated it to you on the phone.[/quote] I was told that the reason this dash bar could not be removed/replaced is because you weren't explicitly allowed to do it. Also the "# of mounting points" section was referenced. Now I was not aware that the only two mounting points *are* the A pillars. Those two mounting points would be removed and the new dash bar would mount to the down tubes, so I guess it could maybe fly. I also called a multi time national champ who informed me that he does not believe messing with that bar is legal, as its part of the stock chassis and you can't muck with it in SS or T racing. Apparently there will be protests.
I think I might just leave all this up to the cage shop instead of worrying about it :p
a) Drop car off
b) Write check
c) Pick up car
d) ?????
e) Profit!
-Tom
| Protege Menace | 08-05-2005 12:25 PM |
why would you die? is it just for autocross?
i'd rather not add the extra weight, I mean, you're not a n00b who will try to recover an unrec. spin and floor it into things....
i'd rather not add the extra weight, I mean, you're not a n00b who will try to recover an unrec. spin and floor it into things....
| WRX8XB | 08-05-2005 12:29 PM |
it is for SCCA Road Racing. Sometimes even in an unrec. spin you can still hit a wall, and while going 100mph it would hurt if there were any sudden stops.
| Protege Menace | 08-05-2005 12:30 PM |
ohh, thought it was just for autocross.
| turboICE | 08-05-2005 01:39 PM |
Read the thread Touring 2 is wheel to wheel road racing.
Part of the thing is that it is not part of the chasis and you would not be increasing the number of mounting points of the cage at all less likely beyond the 8 specifically permitted.
The rules in that part of the car are not much freer in IT and I have both my current dash bar and next year's new dash bar in that same location replacing the same tube and connecting the steering column to it.
When my STi is built for T-2 I fully intend on putting the dash bar between the down legs where that bar attached to the a-pillars is currently located. And an RS currently being built for someone else the dash bar is definitelty going there. Going to be hard pressed to find someone in Touring to protest it since many of them did exactly this and the rule makes explicit allowances that put the safety afforded by the cage over the lack of explicit permissibility to remove the already there. About the only thing that can't be messed with when putting in a cage is the heater core - almost everything else within in reason to put in a safe cage is good if you aren't doing some really convoluted design trying to get away with something. That bar is the natural spot for a roll cage dash bar and many have done it.
If you are going to try and go above the dash keep in mind that the dash bar cannot have any bends - so it will be much more obtrusive than you think "along the windshield". And make dang sure the passenger air bag will not go off with the bar there or you are going to have dash board trying to find someplace to go none of which will be good.
Part of the thing is that it is not part of the chasis and you would not be increasing the number of mounting points of the cage at all less likely beyond the 8 specifically permitted.
The rules in that part of the car are not much freer in IT and I have both my current dash bar and next year's new dash bar in that same location replacing the same tube and connecting the steering column to it.
When my STi is built for T-2 I fully intend on putting the dash bar between the down legs where that bar attached to the a-pillars is currently located. And an RS currently being built for someone else the dash bar is definitelty going there. Going to be hard pressed to find someone in Touring to protest it since many of them did exactly this and the rule makes explicit allowances that put the safety afforded by the cage over the lack of explicit permissibility to remove the already there. About the only thing that can't be messed with when putting in a cage is the heater core - almost everything else within in reason to put in a safe cage is good if you aren't doing some really convoluted design trying to get away with something. That bar is the natural spot for a roll cage dash bar and many have done it.
If you are going to try and go above the dash keep in mind that the dash bar cannot have any bends - so it will be much more obtrusive than you think "along the windshield". And make dang sure the passenger air bag will not go off with the bar there or you are going to have dash board trying to find someplace to go none of which will be good.
| trhoppe | 08-05-2005 02:06 PM |
I agree with you on the legality part of it and I do like the idea of replacing the stock bar. I think it would provide the least obstructive and safest install and in no way would be "beneficial" performance wise over building the bar over the dashboard.
As far as bends, I was told that there can be and most of the time are bends in the dash bar. 100% allowed. As with the main hoop, there can be no crimps or failure in the tubing, but slight bends are ok.
-Tom
As far as bends, I was told that there can be and most of the time are bends in the dash bar. 100% allowed. As with the main hoop, there can be no crimps or failure in the tubing, but slight bends are ok.
-Tom
| turboICE | 08-05-2005 02:21 PM |
True enough - dash bar is not required to be straight now that I read 18 yet again. Not sure why in mind that I always think that is the case. Only the rear down supports are permitted no bends. At a minimum I think it would be preferable for it to be straight if it could though.
Ed.
Ed.
| erikl2002wrx | 08-05-2005 02:46 PM |
I'm going to take a look at the progress of my cage tonight. I'll take some pics and see if I can post a link.
| Chromer | 08-05-2005 02:48 PM |
Will the bar fit INSIDE the factory dash bar? Probably won't mount right, never mind. Stupid idea.
| Recce01 | 08-05-2005 03:39 PM |
no its not a stupid idea actually, we do this in our rally cars. Assuming you have a real cage in the car, with an a-pilar running right up against the inner side wall, you can plate the area where the bar bolts in to the a-pilar tube, and then run a .120 wall tube through the factory bar and weld it in a few spots. The bar will still be removable, yet much stronger in the event if an impact at that spot
| randy zimmer | 08-05-2005 03:44 PM |
hmmmm
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[QUOTE=Chromer]Will the bar fit INSIDE the factory dash bar? Probably won't mount right, never mind. Stupid idea.[/QUOTE]
Maybe not, if it were sliced and spread.
"readjusted" as it were, not missing.
Kindof like how we had to tape our sun visors to the roll cage in SS, you had to move them to make the cage work, but couldn't leave them behind.
Some people just make a habit of trying things out and letting the greyness in.
ie: not allowed, not un-allowed - lets get a ruling.
Phone call opinions aren't binding either way.
rz
Maybe not, if it were sliced and spread.
"readjusted" as it were, not missing.
Kindof like how we had to tape our sun visors to the roll cage in SS, you had to move them to make the cage work, but couldn't leave them behind.
Some people just make a habit of trying things out and letting the greyness in.
ie: not allowed, not un-allowed - lets get a ruling.
Phone call opinions aren't binding either way.
rz
| turboICE | 08-05-2005 03:49 PM |
[QUOTE=Chromer]Will the bar fit INSIDE the factory dash bar? Probably won't mount right, never mind. Stupid idea.[/QUOTE]It's an idea. In preparing a car for class rule based racing (which all worthwhile racing is) even ideas that don't necessarily work in themselves can trigger another idea. Those that think outside the box to accomplish a build and do so correctly can get an edge on their competition that are busy copying each other.
And I have not measured the ID of the OEM bar but there is a good likelihood that a tube meeting the size requirements may fit inside. The problem becomes that the tube needs to attach to the front down legs, while the bar is connected at each end to the door jam/body right below the a-pillars.
And I have not measured the ID of the OEM bar but there is a good likelihood that a tube meeting the size requirements may fit inside. The problem becomes that the tube needs to attach to the front down legs, while the bar is connected at each end to the door jam/body right below the a-pillars.
| erikl2002wrx | 08-05-2005 04:13 PM |
The cage requires 1.75 od tubing which will fit inside the factory tube only if its wall thickness is less than .12. But it will be very difficult to weld the factory tubes back to the roll cage. It may work and may still be illegal.
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 02:16 PM |
Going inside the dash bar would work well if you weren't building for T2, as once all the welding is complete, you would be adding 2 more attachment points where the stock dash bar mounts up to the transmission tunnel.
There is *plenty* of room under the dash pad where the stock venting goes through. Basically the drivers/pass vents will be rendered useless as they will just unbolt out of the dash pad leaving awesome room for the dash bar. The windshield vent will still work so it won't fog up. Thats where our bar will go.
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/pictures/2005_08_07_Before_Cage/IMG_3041.jpg[/img]
The bar will fit over the top of the 3 ventholes and leave room for that back one.
Also, they were talking about sitting the main hoop pretty far back. Almost on the ridge where the back seat starts. Probably a few inches past this mounting spot.
[img]http://www.rally.subaru.com/rally/images/b28.jpg[/img]
-Tom
There is *plenty* of room under the dash pad where the stock venting goes through. Basically the drivers/pass vents will be rendered useless as they will just unbolt out of the dash pad leaving awesome room for the dash bar. The windshield vent will still work so it won't fog up. Thats where our bar will go.
[img]http://www.trackmonkeyracing.com/pictures/2005_08_07_Before_Cage/IMG_3041.jpg[/img]
The bar will fit over the top of the 3 ventholes and leave room for that back one.
Also, they were talking about sitting the main hoop pretty far back. Almost on the ridge where the back seat starts. Probably a few inches past this mounting spot.
[img]http://www.rally.subaru.com/rally/images/b28.jpg[/img]
-Tom
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