| Durmiente | 11-21-2005 03:36 PM |
advice needed: road racing for first time
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Hi,
i have a 2002 wrx wagon and this weekend i should be taking it out on a road course for the first time... it all depends on if my school's car club still has the track rented.
i was just going to ask for some advice for my first time out on the track. my experience is fairly limited, althouhg i am really comfortable with my car at low speeds - i used to rally cross it (not officially) and I have done non-scca autocross-like races as well as one SCCA Solo II event in it. all of those experiences were less than 40 mph, though. I havent cornered my car too much at high speeds yet, save for the occasional onramp or twistie road :D I heard that this course will limit us to 80 mph at tops.
what advice does anyone have for me in terms of how to drive/what to expect?
btw the car is pretty much stock except for some pirelli pzero nero (all seasons) and an intake filter + resonator hack.
EDIT: This link has a pic of the course from the air so you can have an idea of what it is... the road course uses the top and bottom of the oval. the pic is at the bottom of the page.
[url]http://www.sandiamotorsports.com/map.htm[/url]
i have a 2002 wrx wagon and this weekend i should be taking it out on a road course for the first time... it all depends on if my school's car club still has the track rented.
i was just going to ask for some advice for my first time out on the track. my experience is fairly limited, althouhg i am really comfortable with my car at low speeds - i used to rally cross it (not officially) and I have done non-scca autocross-like races as well as one SCCA Solo II event in it. all of those experiences were less than 40 mph, though. I havent cornered my car too much at high speeds yet, save for the occasional onramp or twistie road :D I heard that this course will limit us to 80 mph at tops.
what advice does anyone have for me in terms of how to drive/what to expect?
btw the car is pretty much stock except for some pirelli pzero nero (all seasons) and an intake filter + resonator hack.
EDIT: This link has a pic of the course from the air so you can have an idea of what it is... the road course uses the top and bottom of the oval. the pic is at the bottom of the page.
[url]http://www.sandiamotorsports.com/map.htm[/url]
| KC | 11-21-2005 03:44 PM |
Besides don't do it without an instructor, I would do...
1) New brake fluid.
2) New brake pads
3) Maybe New rotors if you haven't bought new ones recently.
What to expect is a fun time if you have the right equipment to make the best of your time and good instructors to help you make use of the car/track/time on course.
--kC
1) New brake fluid.
2) New brake pads
3) Maybe New rotors if you haven't bought new ones recently.
What to expect is a fun time if you have the right equipment to make the best of your time and good instructors to help you make use of the car/track/time on course.
--kC
| GQ | 11-21-2005 03:45 PM |
Advice:
[url]http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=972109[/url]
Also taking your car out on track for a DE is not considered "road racing"
[url]http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=972109[/url]
Also taking your car out on track for a DE is not considered "road racing"
| KC | 11-21-2005 03:47 PM |
[QUOTE=GQ]Advice:
[url="http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=972109"]http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=972109[/url]
Also taking your car out on track for a DE is not considered "road racing"[/QUOTE]
Yarrr... I think it's funny we're linking to other boards stickies! :lol:
[url="http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=972109"]http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=972109[/url]
Also taking your car out on track for a DE is not considered "road racing"[/QUOTE]
Yarrr... I think it's funny we're linking to other boards stickies! :lol:
| RichardM | 11-21-2005 03:48 PM |
Check all fluid levels and tire pressure. I am not sure what the best pressure would be but suspect that it should be higher than normal. Obviously check the car over to be sure everything is bolted down firmly. Other wise, keep your cool while driving and don't pretend that you will get an F1 contract out of this "driver test." :-)
And have fun.
ETA, as others noted, fresh brake flush/fluid is a good idea too.
And have fun.
ETA, as others noted, fresh brake flush/fluid is a good idea too.
| GQ | 11-21-2005 03:50 PM |
I know, but the Honda-Tech RoadRacing/Autocross forum is the best I have read.
[QUOTE=KC]Yarrr... I think it's funny we're linking to other boards stickies! :lol:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=KC]Yarrr... I think it's funny we're linking to other boards stickies! :lol:[/QUOTE]
| nKoan | 11-21-2005 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE=GQ]Also taking your car out on track for a DE is not considered "road racing"[/QUOTE]
Nor is driving on a dirt road considered "rally cross (not officially)"
But yeah, brake pads/fluid flush, check to make sure you have plenty of oil and coolant, power steering fluid etc...
Make sure the tires are good, with plenty of tread. Don't drive on flat fixed tires, so if you ever had a puncture fixed, don't drive on it at the track.
Other then that, be safe and only go as fast as you feel comfortable.
Nor is driving on a dirt road considered "rally cross (not officially)"
But yeah, brake pads/fluid flush, check to make sure you have plenty of oil and coolant, power steering fluid etc...
Make sure the tires are good, with plenty of tread. Don't drive on flat fixed tires, so if you ever had a puncture fixed, don't drive on it at the track.
Other then that, be safe and only go as fast as you feel comfortable.
| leecea | 11-21-2005 05:09 PM |
My $0.02: At low speeds you get used to the car understeering or pushing a bit as you take turns. Imagine my suprise the first time I took an autocross sweeper at 50 mph and found the back coming around! Things change as the speeds increase and you can get into a lot of trouble at 80 mph! Be very careful.
| Durmiente | 11-22-2005 12:23 AM |
thanks for the advice... i still dont really know if its happening or not but we will see.
i was looking more for advice on how to drive. this is just a school thing so we arent going to have instuctors, so i am pretty much going to do it by myself, so i was looking for some tips (in terms of when/how hard to brake, shift points, maybe also what gear is good to go through particular turns in) but i know its a bit hard to give that info if you've never driven that course before.
what is road racing then? i always thought that was the definition of it (maybe i meant road course).
oh and my rally experience was basically setting up a dirt track in an abandoned quary with cones and whatnot, so it was more like rallycross than driving on a dirt road.
i was looking more for advice on how to drive. this is just a school thing so we arent going to have instuctors, so i am pretty much going to do it by myself, so i was looking for some tips (in terms of when/how hard to brake, shift points, maybe also what gear is good to go through particular turns in) but i know its a bit hard to give that info if you've never driven that course before.
what is road racing then? i always thought that was the definition of it (maybe i meant road course).
oh and my rally experience was basically setting up a dirt track in an abandoned quary with cones and whatnot, so it was more like rallycross than driving on a dirt road.
| dwx | 11-22-2005 07:38 AM |
"Racing" is when you are competing with others for position, wheel to wheel. If you aren't competing against someone (which you shouldn't be) then I wouldn't call it "racing."
| GQ | 11-22-2005 08:05 AM |
This is a great write up:
[url]http://redlinerennsport.homestead.com/DriversEdEd.html[/url]
Without an instructor you will learn very little. Hopefully you will at least have classroom instruction. Focus on learning the line and being smooth while you are on track. Smooth shifts, smooth steering input, smooth braking, smooth throttle application. Learning these two aspects will fill your day.
Have Fun :)
[url]http://redlinerennsport.homestead.com/DriversEdEd.html[/url]
Without an instructor you will learn very little. Hopefully you will at least have classroom instruction. Focus on learning the line and being smooth while you are on track. Smooth shifts, smooth steering input, smooth braking, smooth throttle application. Learning these two aspects will fill your day.
Have Fun :)
| KC | 11-22-2005 08:06 AM |
[QUOTE=Durmiente]thanks for the advice... i still dont really know if its happening or not but we will see.
i was looking more for advice on how to drive. this is just a school thing so we arent going to have instuctors, so i am pretty much going to do it by myself, so i was looking for some tips (in terms of when/how hard to brake, shift points, maybe also what gear is good to go through particular turns in) but i know its a bit hard to give that info if you've never driven that course before.
what is road racing then? i always thought that was the definition of it (maybe i meant road course).
oh and my rally experience was basically setting up a dirt track in an abandoned quary with cones and whatnot, so it was more like rallycross than driving on a dirt road.[/QUOTE]
So let me get this straight... your school is going to let inexperienced kids take their own personal cars out on a road course without any prior instruction, without any instructors?
Sounds like a recepie for disaster IMHO and no amount of telling you how to do it here on this forum will help you at all other than to say:
1) Start braking early... earlier than you think you should...
2) Brake progressively (start soft then go harder... don't jab the brakes)
3) same with the gas.. don't stab the gas suddenly... feed into it
4) Smooth inputs on the steering wheel. Don't just turn the wheel expecting to turn at speed. You'll just end up going straight
5) Don't brake and turn at the same time.. finish your braking before you initiate the turn.
6) Don't turn and lift.. you'll end up looking the way you just came
Here's an exercise you can do right now sitting in your chair:
Your tires can only do 100% of what you tell them to do. 100% braking, 100% turning, or 100% accellerating. They can not do more than that or they slide. What this means is you can do various combinations up to 100% of effort. 75% gas with 25% turning. 75% brake with 25% turning. 85% turn with 15% gas. Get the picture?
How does one know they're not doing over 100%?
Right now, sitting there pretend you're holding a steering wheel and you're in a car.
Imagine now... there's a string tied from the bottom of the steering wheel to your right foot.
When you turn the wheel, it lifts the foot off the gas (again... slowly and smoothly *NOT SUDDENLY*. There are no 'emergencies' like dodging grandmas crossing the road.)
When you start feeding out of the turn (turning the wheel back to center), your foot goes down the same amount the string allows.
Same with braking...
Most, if not all at your stage of driving skill, of your braking should be done before you enter the turn. 100% braking means your tires had better be pointing straight.
As you back off the braking, you can start dialing in some steering... remember the string... As you back off the brakes, you can dial in some steering.. just don't LIFT off the brakes and turn the wheel suddenly 100%... it doesn't work.
Then work the gas and brake with the wheel trying to never overcome the 100% that the tires can provide.
If I was your school... I'd make sure there was going to be an instructor... why? Insurance hardly ever covers open track days without instruction... something to keep in mind.
Oh... and 'Road Racing' means other cars at the same time on a track trying to be 1st across the finish line or fastest time on course.
You're doing what is called 'lapping day' which means open track, probably no passing in corners or without a point-by in the very least... and most likely not timed. The element of being '1st' is removed from the equasion.. so it's not 'racing'.
Hope this helps... keep the shiny side up.
--kC
i was looking more for advice on how to drive. this is just a school thing so we arent going to have instuctors, so i am pretty much going to do it by myself, so i was looking for some tips (in terms of when/how hard to brake, shift points, maybe also what gear is good to go through particular turns in) but i know its a bit hard to give that info if you've never driven that course before.
what is road racing then? i always thought that was the definition of it (maybe i meant road course).
oh and my rally experience was basically setting up a dirt track in an abandoned quary with cones and whatnot, so it was more like rallycross than driving on a dirt road.[/QUOTE]
So let me get this straight... your school is going to let inexperienced kids take their own personal cars out on a road course without any prior instruction, without any instructors?
Sounds like a recepie for disaster IMHO and no amount of telling you how to do it here on this forum will help you at all other than to say:
1) Start braking early... earlier than you think you should...
2) Brake progressively (start soft then go harder... don't jab the brakes)
3) same with the gas.. don't stab the gas suddenly... feed into it
4) Smooth inputs on the steering wheel. Don't just turn the wheel expecting to turn at speed. You'll just end up going straight
5) Don't brake and turn at the same time.. finish your braking before you initiate the turn.
6) Don't turn and lift.. you'll end up looking the way you just came
Here's an exercise you can do right now sitting in your chair:
Your tires can only do 100% of what you tell them to do. 100% braking, 100% turning, or 100% accellerating. They can not do more than that or they slide. What this means is you can do various combinations up to 100% of effort. 75% gas with 25% turning. 75% brake with 25% turning. 85% turn with 15% gas. Get the picture?
How does one know they're not doing over 100%?
Right now, sitting there pretend you're holding a steering wheel and you're in a car.
Imagine now... there's a string tied from the bottom of the steering wheel to your right foot.
When you turn the wheel, it lifts the foot off the gas (again... slowly and smoothly *NOT SUDDENLY*. There are no 'emergencies' like dodging grandmas crossing the road.)
When you start feeding out of the turn (turning the wheel back to center), your foot goes down the same amount the string allows.
Same with braking...
Most, if not all at your stage of driving skill, of your braking should be done before you enter the turn. 100% braking means your tires had better be pointing straight.
As you back off the braking, you can start dialing in some steering... remember the string... As you back off the brakes, you can dial in some steering.. just don't LIFT off the brakes and turn the wheel suddenly 100%... it doesn't work.
Then work the gas and brake with the wheel trying to never overcome the 100% that the tires can provide.
If I was your school... I'd make sure there was going to be an instructor... why? Insurance hardly ever covers open track days without instruction... something to keep in mind.
Oh... and 'Road Racing' means other cars at the same time on a track trying to be 1st across the finish line or fastest time on course.
You're doing what is called 'lapping day' which means open track, probably no passing in corners or without a point-by in the very least... and most likely not timed. The element of being '1st' is removed from the equasion.. so it's not 'racing'.
Hope this helps... keep the shiny side up.
--kC
| Paisan | 11-22-2005 10:15 AM |
My guess is there will be instructors. I haven't been to an HPDE that doesn't have them.
-mike
-mike
| Durmiente | 11-22-2005 11:30 AM |
wow!! thanks, that was some good advice (especially the thing with the string and steering wheel, i can really see that.
to clarify a few things, technically its not a school sponsored event.... its just an event that our car club is doing. Technically the school isnt really allowing it or anything because we have left over money from last year that we have to use up. Its not officially a school event by any means.
it will be awesome if there are instructors there... i really have no idea what to expect. All i know is that we rented out the track for 3 hours just like any car club would... whether that comes with instruction or not is beyond me.
to clarify a few things, technically its not a school sponsored event.... its just an event that our car club is doing. Technically the school isnt really allowing it or anything because we have left over money from last year that we have to use up. Its not officially a school event by any means.
it will be awesome if there are instructors there... i really have no idea what to expect. All i know is that we rented out the track for 3 hours just like any car club would... whether that comes with instruction or not is beyond me.
| xcdhridr | 11-22-2005 12:00 PM |
use ALL the track. late apex. Use sticky tire or it's not going to be as fun (I run re070's)
| leecea | 11-22-2005 12:44 PM |
You've got to hope that there are some experienced people from your car club that will insist on some controls on how people drive or it will be a free for all! For example, your group must agree on controls for passing - you don't want someone trying to out brake you for a corner or playing racer with you anywhere near them.
It's going to be so easy to start out conservatively then get caught up in the moment and be pushing too much.
It's going to be so easy to start out conservatively then get caught up in the moment and be pushing too much.
| HoRo1 | 11-22-2005 01:01 PM |
Check all the blah, blah as above
get an instructor
Be smooth
drive slowly and work up to a reasonable speed
No attitude
get an instructor
Be smooth
drive slowly and work up to a reasonable speed
No attitude
| rkkwan | 11-22-2005 01:37 PM |
Do not go if there are no instructors, and there are other novices out there like you. You won't be learning anything and there's a very high chance of on-course incidence.
I am not joking. I have done many track days, and I'm doing another one this weekend. So please take my advice. I for sure wouldn't take my car out on a course sharing a course with you. Nothing personal, as I was a novice once too.
Go to a proper event at a well-controlled environment and instructors.
I am not joking. I have done many track days, and I'm doing another one this weekend. So please take my advice. I for sure wouldn't take my car out on a course sharing a course with you. Nothing personal, as I was a novice once too.
Go to a proper event at a well-controlled environment and instructors.
| CirrusWRX | 11-22-2005 05:17 PM |
no instructors + track = don't run
| Durmiente | 11-23-2005 04:02 PM |
yeah. we are actually only going to run 1-2 cars on the track at a time. if its 2, then we will be placing them on opposite sides of the 1.65 mile track. so it should be safe in that respect. plus there is literally no more than 5 of us that have the track for 3 hours, so we dont need to squeeze anyone in, we will have PLENTY of time even if we run one at a time... so it should be pretty safe
i am currently looking into seeing if anyone in the club is willing to invite some SCCA autocross guys out there to be "instructors". i figure that they wouldnt mind riding with us and giving us tips if we let them race the track for free in return...
i am currently looking into seeing if anyone in the club is willing to invite some SCCA autocross guys out there to be "instructors". i figure that they wouldnt mind riding with us and giving us tips if we let them race the track for free in return...
| KrazyKarl | 11-23-2005 04:43 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]
2) Brake progressively (start soft then go harder... don't jab the brakes)
--kC[/QUOTE]
Actually, I've been told (by a driving instructor) that you should break full strength and then ease off it as you approach a corner.
2) Brake progressively (start soft then go harder... don't jab the brakes)
--kC[/QUOTE]
Actually, I've been told (by a driving instructor) that you should break full strength and then ease off it as you approach a corner.
| leecea | 11-23-2005 05:11 PM |
I think the braking issue is in two pieces:
1) apply the brakes gradually rather than in a sudden, stabbing motion
2) brake hard early to give yourself more room for error
Neither contradicts the other, so you're both right :)
1) apply the brakes gradually rather than in a sudden, stabbing motion
2) brake hard early to give yourself more room for error
Neither contradicts the other, so you're both right :)
| bushflyr | 11-24-2005 08:42 AM |
I just came back from my second school day and a few of the best pointers I got were: Get 80% of your braking done in the first 20% of the braking zone. When you're braking, BRAKE. When it's time to downshift, get it done. You always want the clutch out except when the gearshift is actually moving. And, be smooth smooth smooth. The fastest laps are the the ones that everything just flows on, not the ones where you're really working.
Oh, and 4 wheel drifts are fun, but they eat a ton of speed and tires at the same time. ;)
Oh, and 4 wheel drifts are fun, but they eat a ton of speed and tires at the same time. ;)
| Wombat North | 11-24-2005 06:02 PM |
All good advise above
Only one I have and its the first rule of any track day.
[B]At the end of the day you have to drive your car home[/B].
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do not forget this
Only one I have and its the first rule of any track day.
[B]At the end of the day you have to drive your car home[/B].
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do not forget this
| KC | 11-24-2005 06:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Wombat North]All good advise above
Only one I have and its the first rule of any track day.
[B]At the end of the day you have to drive your car home[/B].
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do not forget this[/QUOTE]
What, AAA isn't and option? ;)
--kC
(Towed his car the 1st track day.... to and from the track on his own trailer.b)
Only one I have and its the first rule of any track day.
[B]At the end of the day you have to drive your car home[/B].
^^^^^^^^^^^
Do not forget this[/QUOTE]
What, AAA isn't and option? ;)
--kC
(Towed his car the 1st track day.... to and from the track on his own trailer.b)
| BigClunke | 11-24-2005 07:05 PM |
I think most are over-emphasizing the importance of an instructor. There is a lot to be learned about braking, looking ahead, how to control over and understeer. That you really have to get the feel for, an instructor can give you advice but ultimately it�s up to your coordination. I have only had an instructor help me with my lines and getting through the course faster, the advice was helpful but not �night and day�. It is important to drive within your limits; most people who are paying for their own car will naturally tone it down a bit knowing the financial risks. I know we have all seen that guy, but in my experience it hasn't been common and they tend to get black flagged pretty quick. Yes, an instructor will help you a lot but just getting the feel for the thresholds is very important too; you are able to make use of your instructor�s advice much better after getting the feel for that. People have varying degrees of spacial orientation; you better believe an experienced downhill skier is going to have an easier time knowing when to start braking, how quick they are capable of braking in varying conditions, how much speed they can take into a turn, etc. Everyone is different, some people absolutely need an instructor their first time, some people you could swear have been doing hpde�s for years their first time on the track. Pay attention to the rules; know what to do in an emergency and you should be fine as long as you stay with in your limits. Also, check your mirrors frequently; usually there will be someone behind you trying to get by, just because you can keep them behind you in the straights, doesn�t mean they aren�t way faster than you in the corners and on the brakes.
| Mushashi | 11-24-2005 07:46 PM |
If there are no instructors and you still plan on running, ask other experienced drivers how they are driving each turn and if possible hitch a ride with them on a few laps. This will give you some idea how they precieve the turns, but does not mean this is the idle way nor does it mean this is the way you should be driving it. Take the information to help assist in developing your driving style and with your confort level, before you start looking for your limits.
Enjoy and stay safe!
Enjoy and stay safe!
| kfoote | 11-25-2005 08:24 PM |
[QUOTE=BigClunke]I think most are over-emphasizing the importance of an instructor. There is a lot to be learned about braking, looking ahead, how to control over and understeer. That you really have to get the feel for, an instructor can give you advice but ultimately it�s up to your coordination. I have only had an instructor help me with my lines and getting through the course faster, the advice was helpful but not �night and day�. It is important to drive within your limits; most people who are paying for their own car will naturally tone it down a bit knowing the financial risks. I know we have all seen that guy, but in my experience it hasn't been common and they tend to get black flagged pretty quick. Yes, an instructor will help you a lot but just getting the feel for the thresholds is very important too; you are able to make use of your instructor�s advice much better after getting the feel for that. People have varying degrees of spacial orientation; you better believe an experienced downhill skier is going to have an easier time knowing when to start braking, how quick they are capable of braking in varying conditions, how much speed they can take into a turn, etc. Everyone is different, some people absolutely need an instructor their first time, some people you could swear have been doing hpde�s for years their first time on the track. Pay attention to the rules; know what to do in an emergency and you should be fine as long as you stay with in your limits. Also, check your mirrors frequently; usually there will be someone behind you trying to get by, just because you can keep them behind you in the straights, doesn�t mean they aren�t way faster than you in the corners and on the brakes.[/QUOTE]
This is quite possibly the worst evaluation on the value of an instructor I have ever read.
In an autocross or rallycross situation, I have never had an instructor.
This is a road course. If you're going on track for the first time, having an instructor is a HUGE benefit. Especially if this is your first time on track, the instructor WILL pick up on bad habits that you are developing and will be able to point them out so that they get corrected before they become habits. There is a LOT to learn, and it is very overwhelming at first, and that's just to be able to keep the car on track pointed in the right direction and not be in the way of everyone else.
The overwhelming majority of HPDE accidents are single car incidents, whether there are 2 cars on track or 20.
If a multi-time Auto-X National Champion thinks it's a good idea for him to have an instructor for his first time on track, that should say something.
I went to 3 tracks this year that I had never been to before. In all 3 cases, I felt like it took at least 3 20 minute sessions before I had a moderate grasp on what I should be doing where, and there was still some improvement after that, and in 2 of the 3 cases (Nelson Ledges and Mid-Ohio), after 50+ laps on each, I still feel like there is some room for improvement...and I learn tracks quickly. When I instruct at a HPDE event, I ALWAYS make it a point to debrief the student afterwards. What was being done right, what wasn't, what needs to be corrected, and what needs to be worked on for the next session. This is the case with experienced drivers too, as there are several people (on NASIOC even) that have requested that I drive their car or ride with them so that they get a better sense of what should be done.
If I'm going to a new track, I like to have all the help I can get. If I go to a track I've been to before and have limited experience on, I'll study my notes that I've made on previous trips there. If I'm still lost after following someone who knows what they're doing (this is NOT reccommended unless you know who it is), I'll find someone that can help me out. Before going to the track at a bare minimum, you should be able to draw a track map from memory (I've also found that this helps me between the course walk and the first rin of an auto-X, too). After your first session, you should be able to sit down with a track map and write where all your braking points and shift points are. After your second session, you should be able to also draw the line, with braking points, turn in points, apex points, and generally where you track out. For a first time student on track without an instructor, this is virtually impossible because of the overwhelming amount of information that needs to be processed.
For an example of what I'm talking about, there's a thread in NESIC I started with a track walkaround of several of the tracks in the Northeast ([URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860058]link here[/URL]). All of those were created totally from memory, with no film, video, pictures, or track maps in front of me at the time. Though they are far from being 100% totally comprehensive, they are a good start for the types of things that you need to know.
This is quite possibly the worst evaluation on the value of an instructor I have ever read.
In an autocross or rallycross situation, I have never had an instructor.
This is a road course. If you're going on track for the first time, having an instructor is a HUGE benefit. Especially if this is your first time on track, the instructor WILL pick up on bad habits that you are developing and will be able to point them out so that they get corrected before they become habits. There is a LOT to learn, and it is very overwhelming at first, and that's just to be able to keep the car on track pointed in the right direction and not be in the way of everyone else.
The overwhelming majority of HPDE accidents are single car incidents, whether there are 2 cars on track or 20.
If a multi-time Auto-X National Champion thinks it's a good idea for him to have an instructor for his first time on track, that should say something.
I went to 3 tracks this year that I had never been to before. In all 3 cases, I felt like it took at least 3 20 minute sessions before I had a moderate grasp on what I should be doing where, and there was still some improvement after that, and in 2 of the 3 cases (Nelson Ledges and Mid-Ohio), after 50+ laps on each, I still feel like there is some room for improvement...and I learn tracks quickly. When I instruct at a HPDE event, I ALWAYS make it a point to debrief the student afterwards. What was being done right, what wasn't, what needs to be corrected, and what needs to be worked on for the next session. This is the case with experienced drivers too, as there are several people (on NASIOC even) that have requested that I drive their car or ride with them so that they get a better sense of what should be done.
If I'm going to a new track, I like to have all the help I can get. If I go to a track I've been to before and have limited experience on, I'll study my notes that I've made on previous trips there. If I'm still lost after following someone who knows what they're doing (this is NOT reccommended unless you know who it is), I'll find someone that can help me out. Before going to the track at a bare minimum, you should be able to draw a track map from memory (I've also found that this helps me between the course walk and the first rin of an auto-X, too). After your first session, you should be able to sit down with a track map and write where all your braking points and shift points are. After your second session, you should be able to also draw the line, with braking points, turn in points, apex points, and generally where you track out. For a first time student on track without an instructor, this is virtually impossible because of the overwhelming amount of information that needs to be processed.
For an example of what I'm talking about, there's a thread in NESIC I started with a track walkaround of several of the tracks in the Northeast ([URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860058]link here[/URL]). All of those were created totally from memory, with no film, video, pictures, or track maps in front of me at the time. Though they are far from being 100% totally comprehensive, they are a good start for the types of things that you need to know.
| BigClunke | 11-25-2005 09:18 PM |
[QUOTE=kfoote]This is quite possibly the worst evaluation on the value of an instructor I have ever read.
In an autocross or rallycross situation, I have never had an instructor.
This is a road course. If you're going on track for the first time, having an instructor is a HUGE benefit. Especially if this is your first time on track, the instructor WILL pick up on bad habits that you are developing and will be able to point them out so that they get corrected before they become habits. There is a LOT to learn, and it is very overwhelming at first, and that's just to be able to keep the car on track pointed in the right direction and not be in the way of everyone else.
The overwhelming majority of HPDE accidents are single car incidents, whether there are 2 cars on track or 20.
If a multi-time Auto-X National Champion thinks it's a good idea for him to have an instructor for his first time on track, that should say something.
I went to 3 tracks this year that I had never been to before. In all 3 cases, I felt like it took at least 3 20 minute sessions before I had a moderate grasp on what I should be doing where, and there was still some improvement after that, and in 2 of the 3 cases (Nelson Ledges and Mid-Ohio), after 50+ laps on each, I still feel like there is some room for improvement...and I learn tracks quickly. When I instruct at a HPDE event, I ALWAYS make it a point to debrief the student afterwards. What was being done right, what wasn't, what needs to be corrected, and what needs to be worked on for the next session. This is the case with experienced drivers too, as there are several people (on NASIOC even) that have requested that I drive their car or ride with them so that they get a better sense of what should be done.
If I'm going to a new track, I like to have all the help I can get. If I go to a track I've been to before and have limited experience on, I'll study my notes that I've made on previous trips there. If I'm still lost after following someone who knows what they're doing (this is NOT reccommended unless you know who it is), I'll find someone that can help me out. Before going to the track at a bare minimum, you should be able to draw a track map from memory (I've also found that this helps me between the course walk and the first rin of an auto-X, too). After your first session, you should be able to sit down with a track map and write where all your braking points and shift points are. After your second session, you should be able to also draw the line, with braking points, turn in points, apex points, and generally where you track out. For a first time student on track without an instructor, this is virtually impossible because of the overwhelming amount of information that needs to be processed.
For an example of what I'm talking about, there's a thread in NESIC I started with a track walkaround of several of the tracks in the Northeast ([url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860058"]link here[/url]). All of those were created totally from memory, with no film, video, pictures, or track maps in front of me at the time. Though they are far from being 100% totally comprehensive, they are a good start for the types of things that you need to know.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you are a good instructor and maybe I haven't been so lucky; however, I never said having an instructor is worthless, it is very beneficial. Rather, I was trying to communicate that it isn�t totally unsafe to be without one your first time. maybe you could point out exactly what made my analysis, "This is quite possibly the worst evaluation on the value of an instructor I have ever read?" you obviously have a lot more experience than I do, but sometimes that makes you loose sight of what it is like your first time out. An Instructor will help you with everything you said (I hadn't thought of nipping the bad habits before they become habits) but, I don't see how my reply contradicted that in anyway. Most of the points you addressed would require you to have a grasp on the basics, you generally don�t have time to be concerned with the fastest line on a course; even someone as experienced as you are has to work at that, imo it�s not the biggest concern the first time out because you have so much else to focus on. Safety comes first (an instructor is great because they will be able to give you feedback on that), then having fun and getting to test the limits of your car come next. If you aren�t too overwhelmed by those three things then you have time to worry about the fastest way through the course. I can only communicate my own experiences, how I felt with an instructor and without and what I gained from the experience. I kept getting the impression that people were saying it is totally unsafe and would either a) lead to serious injury or b)death. The reality is most people will go out on a track a few times without an instructor at something like a test and tune day. It�s usually once you can finally grasp the basics that you realize why an instructor is so beneficial.
In an autocross or rallycross situation, I have never had an instructor.
This is a road course. If you're going on track for the first time, having an instructor is a HUGE benefit. Especially if this is your first time on track, the instructor WILL pick up on bad habits that you are developing and will be able to point them out so that they get corrected before they become habits. There is a LOT to learn, and it is very overwhelming at first, and that's just to be able to keep the car on track pointed in the right direction and not be in the way of everyone else.
The overwhelming majority of HPDE accidents are single car incidents, whether there are 2 cars on track or 20.
If a multi-time Auto-X National Champion thinks it's a good idea for him to have an instructor for his first time on track, that should say something.
I went to 3 tracks this year that I had never been to before. In all 3 cases, I felt like it took at least 3 20 minute sessions before I had a moderate grasp on what I should be doing where, and there was still some improvement after that, and in 2 of the 3 cases (Nelson Ledges and Mid-Ohio), after 50+ laps on each, I still feel like there is some room for improvement...and I learn tracks quickly. When I instruct at a HPDE event, I ALWAYS make it a point to debrief the student afterwards. What was being done right, what wasn't, what needs to be corrected, and what needs to be worked on for the next session. This is the case with experienced drivers too, as there are several people (on NASIOC even) that have requested that I drive their car or ride with them so that they get a better sense of what should be done.
If I'm going to a new track, I like to have all the help I can get. If I go to a track I've been to before and have limited experience on, I'll study my notes that I've made on previous trips there. If I'm still lost after following someone who knows what they're doing (this is NOT reccommended unless you know who it is), I'll find someone that can help me out. Before going to the track at a bare minimum, you should be able to draw a track map from memory (I've also found that this helps me between the course walk and the first rin of an auto-X, too). After your first session, you should be able to sit down with a track map and write where all your braking points and shift points are. After your second session, you should be able to also draw the line, with braking points, turn in points, apex points, and generally where you track out. For a first time student on track without an instructor, this is virtually impossible because of the overwhelming amount of information that needs to be processed.
For an example of what I'm talking about, there's a thread in NESIC I started with a track walkaround of several of the tracks in the Northeast ([url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860058"]link here[/url]). All of those were created totally from memory, with no film, video, pictures, or track maps in front of me at the time. Though they are far from being 100% totally comprehensive, they are a good start for the types of things that you need to know.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you are a good instructor and maybe I haven't been so lucky; however, I never said having an instructor is worthless, it is very beneficial. Rather, I was trying to communicate that it isn�t totally unsafe to be without one your first time. maybe you could point out exactly what made my analysis, "This is quite possibly the worst evaluation on the value of an instructor I have ever read?" you obviously have a lot more experience than I do, but sometimes that makes you loose sight of what it is like your first time out. An Instructor will help you with everything you said (I hadn't thought of nipping the bad habits before they become habits) but, I don't see how my reply contradicted that in anyway. Most of the points you addressed would require you to have a grasp on the basics, you generally don�t have time to be concerned with the fastest line on a course; even someone as experienced as you are has to work at that, imo it�s not the biggest concern the first time out because you have so much else to focus on. Safety comes first (an instructor is great because they will be able to give you feedback on that), then having fun and getting to test the limits of your car come next. If you aren�t too overwhelmed by those three things then you have time to worry about the fastest way through the course. I can only communicate my own experiences, how I felt with an instructor and without and what I gained from the experience. I kept getting the impression that people were saying it is totally unsafe and would either a) lead to serious injury or b)death. The reality is most people will go out on a track a few times without an instructor at something like a test and tune day. It�s usually once you can finally grasp the basics that you realize why an instructor is so beneficial.
| kfoote | 11-26-2005 12:26 AM |
[QUOTE=BigClunke]I think most are over-emphasizing the importance of an instructor. [/quote]
I disagree, see below.
[quote]There is a lot to be learned about braking, looking ahead, how to control over and understeer. That you really have to get the feel for, an instructor can give you advice but ultimately it�s up to your coordination.[/quote]
Having an instructor in the car will DRAMATICALLY increase the rate of the learning curve, and help to make sure that the reactions that you have to oversteer, understeer, and braking issues are the correct ones. [b]The wrong reaction set can result in making a bad situation worse, rather than either making it better or cutting your losses.[/b]
[quote]I have only had an instructor help me with my lines and getting through the course faster, the advice was helpful but not �night and day�. [/quote]
Knowing where you are supposed to be makes a HUGE difference. Not only is the racing line the fastest way around the track, but in the vast majority of corners, it provides the greatest margin for error, [b]and is thus the safest[/b]. Learn the line, and the speed will come eventually.
[quote]It is important to drive within your limits; most people who are paying for their own car will naturally tone it down a bit knowing the financial risks.[/quote]
This is true, and is the case for me when I am driving someone else's car, however my idea of "toning it down" and "taking it easy", as it is with most instructors, is WAY above that of a first time student. For the club I primarily run with, when there is a new first time student, generally the instructor will drive the car at about 60% for a couple of laps during the first session. I also like to give students a ride in my car wherever possible so that they can get an idea of exactly what you should be doing where, how high the limits are, and [b]how to get there safely[/b]
[quote]Yes, an instructor will help you a lot but just getting the feel for the thresholds is very important too; you are able to make use of your instructor�s advice much better after getting the feel for that. [/quote]
Again, most instructors will be able to pick up on where these thresholds are during the first session instructing, where a new uninstructed student would be lucky to be close to it by the end of the day.
[quote]People have varying degrees of spacial orientation; you better believe an experienced downhill skier is going to have an easier time knowing when to start braking, how quick they are capable of braking in varying conditions, how much speed they can take into a turn, etc. [/quote]
Having an instructor will dramatically close the gap from someone who knows what their car will do and someone who doesn't, as the feel that the instructor has should virtually eliminate this gap within a couple of sessions.
[quote]Everyone is different, some people absolutely need an instructor their first time, some people you could swear have been doing hpde�s for years their first time on the track. [/quote]
I'd like to think that I was one of those people who you could swear had been doing HPDE's for years. Even though i had been around racing my entire life, there is no way I would have gotten up to speed as quickly [b]and safely[/b] as I did without an instructor.
[quote]Pay attention to the rules; know what to do in an emergency[/quote]
Again, an instructor can help out a lot here as well. There are some cases where when the back end gets loose, you want to add throttle, some where you want to maintain throttle, and some where you want to give up, put both feet in, and spin. [b]Not doing the right thing can get you into a whole lot of trouble.[/b]
[quote]and you should be fine as long as you stay with in your limits.[/quote]
[b]...as long as you don't plan on doing anything else where any bad habits that you develop will result in a mistake that can cost you a major repair bill.[/b]
[quote]Also, check your mirrors frequently; usually there will be someone behind you trying to get by, just because you can keep them behind you in the straights, doesn�t mean they aren�t way faster than you in the corners and on the brakes.[/QUOTE]
Even people that have multiple days have this problem; instructors are generally aware of this, and will get you in the habit of looking in your mirrors at the points where it matters. In my first ever track day at Lime Rock (probably had 15-20 other HPDE events at the time), in a normally aspirated Porsche 944 that was mostly stock, (IIRC, tires and brake pads were the only major mods at the time) I got held up by a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo. Sure, he'd pull 30 car lengths on me on the front straight, but I'd have to back off early going into big bend so I didn't run him over coming out. With 2 cars on the track it's less of an issue, but with more it becomes one. Remember that the best place to check your mirrors is going into the corner before the passing zone.
If you want a good idea of the difference in having an instructor in the car and not having one, go to an SCCA Driver's School. It becomes very easy to identify who is in the car for the first time on track, and who has some HPDE experience in the first few sessions.
I disagree, see below.
[quote]There is a lot to be learned about braking, looking ahead, how to control over and understeer. That you really have to get the feel for, an instructor can give you advice but ultimately it�s up to your coordination.[/quote]
Having an instructor in the car will DRAMATICALLY increase the rate of the learning curve, and help to make sure that the reactions that you have to oversteer, understeer, and braking issues are the correct ones. [b]The wrong reaction set can result in making a bad situation worse, rather than either making it better or cutting your losses.[/b]
[quote]I have only had an instructor help me with my lines and getting through the course faster, the advice was helpful but not �night and day�. [/quote]
Knowing where you are supposed to be makes a HUGE difference. Not only is the racing line the fastest way around the track, but in the vast majority of corners, it provides the greatest margin for error, [b]and is thus the safest[/b]. Learn the line, and the speed will come eventually.
[quote]It is important to drive within your limits; most people who are paying for their own car will naturally tone it down a bit knowing the financial risks.[/quote]
This is true, and is the case for me when I am driving someone else's car, however my idea of "toning it down" and "taking it easy", as it is with most instructors, is WAY above that of a first time student. For the club I primarily run with, when there is a new first time student, generally the instructor will drive the car at about 60% for a couple of laps during the first session. I also like to give students a ride in my car wherever possible so that they can get an idea of exactly what you should be doing where, how high the limits are, and [b]how to get there safely[/b]
[quote]Yes, an instructor will help you a lot but just getting the feel for the thresholds is very important too; you are able to make use of your instructor�s advice much better after getting the feel for that. [/quote]
Again, most instructors will be able to pick up on where these thresholds are during the first session instructing, where a new uninstructed student would be lucky to be close to it by the end of the day.
[quote]People have varying degrees of spacial orientation; you better believe an experienced downhill skier is going to have an easier time knowing when to start braking, how quick they are capable of braking in varying conditions, how much speed they can take into a turn, etc. [/quote]
Having an instructor will dramatically close the gap from someone who knows what their car will do and someone who doesn't, as the feel that the instructor has should virtually eliminate this gap within a couple of sessions.
[quote]Everyone is different, some people absolutely need an instructor their first time, some people you could swear have been doing hpde�s for years their first time on the track. [/quote]
I'd like to think that I was one of those people who you could swear had been doing HPDE's for years. Even though i had been around racing my entire life, there is no way I would have gotten up to speed as quickly [b]and safely[/b] as I did without an instructor.
[quote]Pay attention to the rules; know what to do in an emergency[/quote]
Again, an instructor can help out a lot here as well. There are some cases where when the back end gets loose, you want to add throttle, some where you want to maintain throttle, and some where you want to give up, put both feet in, and spin. [b]Not doing the right thing can get you into a whole lot of trouble.[/b]
[quote]and you should be fine as long as you stay with in your limits.[/quote]
[b]...as long as you don't plan on doing anything else where any bad habits that you develop will result in a mistake that can cost you a major repair bill.[/b]
[quote]Also, check your mirrors frequently; usually there will be someone behind you trying to get by, just because you can keep them behind you in the straights, doesn�t mean they aren�t way faster than you in the corners and on the brakes.[/QUOTE]
Even people that have multiple days have this problem; instructors are generally aware of this, and will get you in the habit of looking in your mirrors at the points where it matters. In my first ever track day at Lime Rock (probably had 15-20 other HPDE events at the time), in a normally aspirated Porsche 944 that was mostly stock, (IIRC, tires and brake pads were the only major mods at the time) I got held up by a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo. Sure, he'd pull 30 car lengths on me on the front straight, but I'd have to back off early going into big bend so I didn't run him over coming out. With 2 cars on the track it's less of an issue, but with more it becomes one. Remember that the best place to check your mirrors is going into the corner before the passing zone.
If you want a good idea of the difference in having an instructor in the car and not having one, go to an SCCA Driver's School. It becomes very easy to identify who is in the car for the first time on track, and who has some HPDE experience in the first few sessions.
| leecea | 11-26-2005 12:10 PM |
I think it's kinda interesting reading this thread then this one [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=889066[/url]
| getfast | 11-26-2005 04:48 PM |
my 2 cents, from the shotgun seat
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Late to the thread but I am an HPDE instructor and I agree 100% with what kfoote has said above.
My take on it... is that our first job is to ensure safety, to make sure our Novices drive home under their own power with huge grins on their faces, instead of on a flatbed truck with a broken wallet. If this requires some "adjustments" to their driving skills or egos or attitudes, so be it. Ya gotta crawl before you learn to walk, right?
Our second job - and the one more relevant to this discussion, because the first one's naturally implied - is to keep them out of bad habits before they become horrible habits.
Seemingly unimportant things like hand placement or footwork will become CRUCIAL as Novices progress to faster groups. It is our job to make sure that starting with their very first lap on-track ever, everything is as it should be in those regards... even if we're only casually mentioning things like "hand off the shifter, unless you're shifting" at first.
Setting aside the obvious safety concerns mentioned elsewhere, my biggest concern with "open lapping days" for Novices is that they will without question get into one bad habit or another. Which means their second HPDE will start them with a more steep learning curve (remember... if you don't satisfy your instructor, you will never get signed off and never progress to faster groups. There is a commonly understood "ladder of speed" among instructors, and even if you're still doing just one thing wrong on the first step of the ladder, you'll never be allowed to climb.)
FWIW, instructors don't claim to be perfect either. Every time I ride with someone, even a rank beginner, I learn something from them that helps me drive better or teach better in one way or another.
As for the "magic moment" between a great student and a great instructor, it's like choosing a dentist or real estate agent... there's gotta be some connection there, which in this instance usually comes from having a same/similar car. I instructed new guys in years past who I still keep in touch with because we found the speed together and had a blast (a couple of 'em are even instructors themselves now.) I've also had some students who never "got it" and had to switch so somebody else could try to make it work for them. This is not a black-and-white equation, it's all shades of grey... but I maintain the belief that we as instructors are doing more good than harm... which is how it should be, considering how theoretically foolish and dangerous it is to belt yourself into a fast street car beside someone who has little idea of what you're trying to teach him, at first anyway.
Now to the original poster. Don't worry too much about what you read here, just go out and have fun and BE SAFE and don't take big risks or make big changes to anything. Take 1 pound of air out of your tires instead of 2. Make your apex or braking point 6 inches later rather than 3 feet later. Try little things differently to see if they feel faster, and soforth... with any luck you'll start developing your natural skill and it will never be an issue that you may have had some "unregulated" time on a road course. If this is something you find you want to pursue, you'll get plenty of unregulated time soon enough... after your instructors sign you off of course. ;)
Good luck-
Jon
My take on it... is that our first job is to ensure safety, to make sure our Novices drive home under their own power with huge grins on their faces, instead of on a flatbed truck with a broken wallet. If this requires some "adjustments" to their driving skills or egos or attitudes, so be it. Ya gotta crawl before you learn to walk, right?
Our second job - and the one more relevant to this discussion, because the first one's naturally implied - is to keep them out of bad habits before they become horrible habits.
Seemingly unimportant things like hand placement or footwork will become CRUCIAL as Novices progress to faster groups. It is our job to make sure that starting with their very first lap on-track ever, everything is as it should be in those regards... even if we're only casually mentioning things like "hand off the shifter, unless you're shifting" at first.
Setting aside the obvious safety concerns mentioned elsewhere, my biggest concern with "open lapping days" for Novices is that they will without question get into one bad habit or another. Which means their second HPDE will start them with a more steep learning curve (remember... if you don't satisfy your instructor, you will never get signed off and never progress to faster groups. There is a commonly understood "ladder of speed" among instructors, and even if you're still doing just one thing wrong on the first step of the ladder, you'll never be allowed to climb.)
FWIW, instructors don't claim to be perfect either. Every time I ride with someone, even a rank beginner, I learn something from them that helps me drive better or teach better in one way or another.
As for the "magic moment" between a great student and a great instructor, it's like choosing a dentist or real estate agent... there's gotta be some connection there, which in this instance usually comes from having a same/similar car. I instructed new guys in years past who I still keep in touch with because we found the speed together and had a blast (a couple of 'em are even instructors themselves now.) I've also had some students who never "got it" and had to switch so somebody else could try to make it work for them. This is not a black-and-white equation, it's all shades of grey... but I maintain the belief that we as instructors are doing more good than harm... which is how it should be, considering how theoretically foolish and dangerous it is to belt yourself into a fast street car beside someone who has little idea of what you're trying to teach him, at first anyway.
Now to the original poster. Don't worry too much about what you read here, just go out and have fun and BE SAFE and don't take big risks or make big changes to anything. Take 1 pound of air out of your tires instead of 2. Make your apex or braking point 6 inches later rather than 3 feet later. Try little things differently to see if they feel faster, and soforth... with any luck you'll start developing your natural skill and it will never be an issue that you may have had some "unregulated" time on a road course. If this is something you find you want to pursue, you'll get plenty of unregulated time soon enough... after your instructors sign you off of course. ;)
Good luck-
Jon
| KC | 12-30-2005 03:14 PM |
Didn't come back to report on how the day went. Wouldn't mind hearing.
--kC
--kC
| Durmiente | 12-30-2005 04:16 PM |
yeah sorry about that... well our club leader screwed up the paperwork and it never happened... we couldnt get the funding... i was pretty bummed about it...
thanks though, for all the advice. i will reread it before we go to the track... it might be next semester (spring) or so i hope. fortuneately i managed to pick up an extra set of rims for the track... so i wont mess up my good all season tires :)
thanks though, for all the advice. i will reread it before we go to the track... it might be next semester (spring) or so i hope. fortuneately i managed to pick up an extra set of rims for the track... so i wont mess up my good all season tires :)
| MattNJ2.8 | 12-30-2005 07:17 PM |
Have fun, keep the shiny side up!
| Colin84 | 12-30-2005 08:13 PM |
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
| mw1029h2 | 12-31-2005 07:19 PM |
Time is speed and speed is time
| RaceComp Engineering | 01-01-2006 10:32 AM |
Best advice would be( in addition to what these guys are sayig)......
Drive from your wallet and leave your ego in the paddock. I had a student who would get worked up and start to overdrive his car, yet was worried about wrecking it,....I had him duck tape his wallet to the dash. He did 15 laps within a couple tenths of each other. He was still fast but he really calmed down.
Just another angle for the " regular guy" at a track day in his street car.
Myles
Drive from your wallet and leave your ego in the paddock. I had a student who would get worked up and start to overdrive his car, yet was worried about wrecking it,....I had him duck tape his wallet to the dash. He did 15 laps within a couple tenths of each other. He was still fast but he really calmed down.
Just another angle for the " regular guy" at a track day in his street car.
Myles
| Mushashi | 01-02-2006 04:43 PM |
[QUOTE=RaceComp Engineering]Best advice would be( in addition to what these guys are sayig)......
Drive from your wallet and leave your ego in the paddock. I had a student who would get worked up and start to overdrive his car, yet was worried about wrecking it,....I had him duck tape his wallet to the dash. He did 15 laps within a couple tenths of each other. He was still fast but he really calmed down.
Just another angle for the " regular guy" at a track day in his street car.
Myles[/QUOTE]
Thats a awsome I idea, I'm gonna have to try that at next training event! LOL :lol:
Drive from your wallet and leave your ego in the paddock. I had a student who would get worked up and start to overdrive his car, yet was worried about wrecking it,....I had him duck tape his wallet to the dash. He did 15 laps within a couple tenths of each other. He was still fast but he really calmed down.
Just another angle for the " regular guy" at a track day in his street car.
Myles[/QUOTE]
Thats a awsome I idea, I'm gonna have to try that at next training event! LOL :lol:
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