| MNbiker | 05-22-2003 08:24 AM |
Alternate Intercooler hoses in STX?
�
�
I know this topic has been beat to death in the past, but a recent post on SCCAforums indicates Doug Gill says any hoses before the throttle body are legal.
[url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000677.html[/url]
You think Doug's opinion will hold sway? I'd love to get rid of that ugly black plastic stock pipe, and pick up a couple HP in the process.
-Steve
[url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000677.html[/url]
You think Doug's opinion will hold sway? I'd love to get rid of that ugly black plastic stock pipe, and pick up a couple HP in the process.
-Steve
| KC | 05-22-2003 09:07 AM |
Here's my take on it...
IC Hoses are not part of the 'Air Cleaner enclosure'. They're called 'Intercooler Hoses'. Looking at a N/A engine, they have nothing other than the air-cleaner and tubing before the TB.
I would like to see it happen, and treat the IC as if it were the same as a TB (hoses/piping up to that point). I would really like to be able to replace it. :)
Before Doug Gill, there was Howard Duncan. There were times that Howard said something was OK, and then was later overruled by a protest committee.
Until it's in a fastrack, or the rule book, then I would say no. But that's me. :)
IC Hoses are not part of the 'Air Cleaner enclosure'. They're called 'Intercooler Hoses'. Looking at a N/A engine, they have nothing other than the air-cleaner and tubing before the TB.
I would like to see it happen, and treat the IC as if it were the same as a TB (hoses/piping up to that point). I would really like to be able to replace it. :)
Before Doug Gill, there was Howard Duncan. There were times that Howard said something was OK, and then was later overruled by a protest committee.
Until it's in a fastrack, or the rule book, then I would say no. But that's me. :)
| ChrisW | 05-22-2003 11:05 AM |
Negative....
But I agree with KC even though they offer a significant performance increase
Now the Air inlet hose (between the turbo and airfilter you can replace, anything after the turbo is considered part of the intercooler system (which is not hard to figure out, it's all connected to the intercooler for easy identification...j/k:p
But I agree with KC even though they offer a significant performance increase
Now the Air inlet hose (between the turbo and airfilter you can replace, anything after the turbo is considered part of the intercooler system (which is not hard to figure out, it's all connected to the intercooler for easy identification...j/k:p
| trhoppe | 05-22-2003 11:06 AM |
I would protest for the hoses. They are part of the intercooler, which you cannot touch.
-Tom
-Tom
| shifterkartracer | 05-22-2003 12:01 PM |
I agree with Tom. A local competitor received the email from Mr. Gill but after discussion with others decided they were probably illegal. I'm not sure how far Doug's email would get you in a protest.
| MNbiker | 05-22-2003 12:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shifterkartracer [/i]
[B]I agree with Tom. A local competitor received the email from Mr. Gill but after discussion with others decided they were probably illegal. I'm not sure how far Doug's email would get you in a protest. [/B][/QUOTE]
I figured as much, but thought I'd run it past you guys.
At least I've finally mastered the technique of getting the stock y-pipe back on, when re-installing the intercooler! :p
-Steve
[B]I agree with Tom. A local competitor received the email from Mr. Gill but after discussion with others decided they were probably illegal. I'm not sure how far Doug's email would get you in a protest. [/B][/QUOTE]
I figured as much, but thought I'd run it past you guys.
At least I've finally mastered the technique of getting the stock y-pipe back on, when re-installing the intercooler! :p
-Steve
| trhoppe | 05-22-2003 12:35 PM |
One thing you have to consider, is that the emails that go to doug are not always armed with all the facts and they can be biadsed to get a "its legal" out of him.
Once you note that they are attached to the IC and they do increase performance, then they become illegal.
-Tom
Once you note that they are attached to the IC and they do increase performance, then they become illegal.
-Tom
| elgorey | 05-22-2003 01:24 PM |
The intercooler is metal, purpose being to cool the intake charge. Hoses are most definately not metal, not permanently attached to the intercooler, and do not cool the intake charge in any way. Therefore not part of the intercooler.
Stock class allows hoses to be replaced with silicone or other types of hoses, with similar performance. This is where it is open for interpretation.
IMO, silicone hoses offer little to no performance enhancement, and are used primarily for reliability.
Stock class allows hoses to be replaced with silicone or other types of hoses, with similar performance. This is where it is open for interpretation.
IMO, silicone hoses offer little to no performance enhancement, and are used primarily for reliability.
| trhoppe | 05-22-2003 01:55 PM |
[QUOTE]IMO, silicone hoses offer little to no performance enhancement, and are used primarily for reliability.[/QUOTE] Bullcrap. They have dynoed HP differences on those.
-Tom
-Tom
| elgorey | 05-22-2003 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] Bullcrap. They have dynoed HP differences on those.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
by what, 2-3 hp? Within the margin of error of a dyno, not to mention any gains could be attributed to the ECU reset that accompanies the install.
look, I have no vested interest in the issue, since I do not seriously autoX anymore, just sharing my views. I felt ZERO performance improvement after I put in my hoses.
[B] Bullcrap. They have dynoed HP differences on those.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
by what, 2-3 hp? Within the margin of error of a dyno, not to mention any gains could be attributed to the ECU reset that accompanies the install.
look, I have no vested interest in the issue, since I do not seriously autoX anymore, just sharing my views. I felt ZERO performance improvement after I put in my hoses.
| shifterkartracer | 05-22-2003 02:02 PM |
[QUOTE]IMO, silicone hoses offer little to no performance enhancement, and are used primarily for reliability.[/QUOTE]
I'd say this is a poor argument. Consider how many people running stock boost that you know have had problems with the plastic IC hoses bursting. I'd be willing to guess that number is VERY small. If that is the case, why would you want to run them in STX if there was no performance difference? You wouldn't. In fact, you would rather save that money (since they are outrageously priced from Samco) and use it towards a mod that DID improve your performance. The fact is they DO improve performance and will likely be protested since as the rules are written and based on past nationals protests by the DSM community THEY ARE ILLEGAL. Should this be the case? I don't really think so but rules are rules. If you want to whine about the rules, go find my camber bolts thread and post there!:)
I'd say this is a poor argument. Consider how many people running stock boost that you know have had problems with the plastic IC hoses bursting. I'd be willing to guess that number is VERY small. If that is the case, why would you want to run them in STX if there was no performance difference? You wouldn't. In fact, you would rather save that money (since they are outrageously priced from Samco) and use it towards a mod that DID improve your performance. The fact is they DO improve performance and will likely be protested since as the rules are written and based on past nationals protests by the DSM community THEY ARE ILLEGAL. Should this be the case? I don't really think so but rules are rules. If you want to whine about the rules, go find my camber bolts thread and post there!:)
| ChrisW | 05-22-2003 02:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by elgorey [/i]
[B]
by what, 2-3 hp? Within the margin of error of a dyno, not to mention any gains could be attributed to the ECU reset that accompanies the install.
look, I have no vested interest in the issue, since I do not seriously autoX anymore, just sharing my views. I felt ZERO performance improvement after I put in my hoses. [/B][/QUOTE]
more like 5-7hp on a full vishnu stage1 kit according to vishnu. The hoses definately help low end torque and low RPM boost response.
[B]
by what, 2-3 hp? Within the margin of error of a dyno, not to mention any gains could be attributed to the ECU reset that accompanies the install.
look, I have no vested interest in the issue, since I do not seriously autoX anymore, just sharing my views. I felt ZERO performance improvement after I put in my hoses. [/B][/QUOTE]
more like 5-7hp on a full vishnu stage1 kit according to vishnu. The hoses definately help low end torque and low RPM boost response.
| Orion | 05-22-2003 02:46 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]I would protest for the hoses. They are part of the intercooler, which you cannot touch.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll disagree that they are part of the IC. They're freaking hoses!
Now, with that said, I would back Tom by saying "if it doesn't say you can.... YOU CAN'T!"
[B]I would protest for the hoses. They are part of the intercooler, which you cannot touch.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll disagree that they are part of the IC. They're freaking hoses!
Now, with that said, I would back Tom by saying "if it doesn't say you can.... YOU CAN'T!"
| ConeMasher | 05-22-2003 03:26 PM |
The argument for them:
They're part of the intake system, and in STX, the intake is wide open up to the throttle body/carb.
Exception to open intake rule:
Intercooler. Can't be altered in any way.
I would take this to mean that everything is wide open to the TB, with the exception of the intercooler assembly (i.e. the big aluminum thing) itself.
Those that claim the hoses are part of the intercooler... well, following that line of thought, the entire intake system could be considered part of the intercooler... they are connected aren't they?
As to the hoses themselves... Yes, they increase performance! They're supposed to... the open intake rule is there in STX to allow people to perform modifications to their intake system (pre-throttlebody) to increase performance. This includes streamlining/increasing airflow wherever possible.
-- Gary
They're part of the intake system, and in STX, the intake is wide open up to the throttle body/carb.
Exception to open intake rule:
Intercooler. Can't be altered in any way.
I would take this to mean that everything is wide open to the TB, with the exception of the intercooler assembly (i.e. the big aluminum thing) itself.
Those that claim the hoses are part of the intercooler... well, following that line of thought, the entire intake system could be considered part of the intercooler... they are connected aren't they?
As to the hoses themselves... Yes, they increase performance! They're supposed to... the open intake rule is there in STX to allow people to perform modifications to their intake system (pre-throttlebody) to increase performance. This includes streamlining/increasing airflow wherever possible.
-- Gary
| shifterkartracer | 05-22-2003 03:59 PM |
All valid arguments. Also, all arguments that DSMers have tried to make and failed in the past. Go ahead and try. You will be protested and *I* think you will lose the protest.
| BOY | 05-22-2003 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
I'll disagree that they are part of the IC. They're freaking hoses!
Now, with that said, I would back Tom by saying "if it doesn't say you can.... YOU CAN'T!" [/B][/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with you on comment #1 but on #2 it does say you can mod the intake before the TB. It doesn't limit the intake to before the turbo, it says before the TB. The hoses have a separate part number from the I/C, they connect the intake air charge to the throttle body through the I/C. The metal elbows on the bottom of the I/C, or the inlets/outlets of the I/C cannot be modified per the rules but these are hoses in the intake tract.
[B]
I'll disagree that they are part of the IC. They're freaking hoses!
Now, with that said, I would back Tom by saying "if it doesn't say you can.... YOU CAN'T!" [/B][/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with you on comment #1 but on #2 it does say you can mod the intake before the TB. It doesn't limit the intake to before the turbo, it says before the TB. The hoses have a separate part number from the I/C, they connect the intake air charge to the throttle body through the I/C. The metal elbows on the bottom of the I/C, or the inlets/outlets of the I/C cannot be modified per the rules but these are hoses in the intake tract.
| mlambert | 05-22-2003 04:33 PM |
Intercooler hoses are part of the intake system before the throttle body, they are not part of the intercooler. I have no idea if that would make them legal or illegal, but they sure as hell shouldn't be considered part of the intercooler. If they are ruled to be part of the intercooler then that rule is based on fiction. When it comes down to it, if the rule is based on something thats false, it still doesn't change the rule.
"Rules is rules"... right?
"Rules is rules"... right?
| BOY | 05-22-2003 04:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mlambert [/i]
[B]When it comes down to it, if the rule is based on something thats false, it still doesn't change the rule.
"Rules is rules"... right? [/B][/QUOTE]
That's the sad part. People who like to be very vocal will probably win this one because they have no vested interest in buying this particular part... as it that whopping 1-2 whp difference is worth arguing over. Shoot, clean/replace your air filter before the race and you'll likely see more than that :rolleyes: . Seems to me that there is too much of "I don't have it, so no one can have it".
btw, [quote]Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttlebody. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers. [/quote] makes no mention of an "intercooler system"... just the intercooler itself. I can remove the intercooler w/o removing the y-hose (ok, its tricky but its do-able) therefore changing the latter has no effect on the former and is (should be) legal.
[B]When it comes down to it, if the rule is based on something thats false, it still doesn't change the rule.
"Rules is rules"... right? [/B][/QUOTE]
That's the sad part. People who like to be very vocal will probably win this one because they have no vested interest in buying this particular part... as it that whopping 1-2 whp difference is worth arguing over. Shoot, clean/replace your air filter before the race and you'll likely see more than that :rolleyes: . Seems to me that there is too much of "I don't have it, so no one can have it".
btw, [quote]Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttlebody. This does not allow any changes to intercoolers. [/quote] makes no mention of an "intercooler system"... just the intercooler itself. I can remove the intercooler w/o removing the y-hose (ok, its tricky but its do-able) therefore changing the latter has no effect on the former and is (should be) legal.
| shifterkartracer | 05-22-2003 05:54 PM |
[QUOTE]People who like to be very vocal will probably win this one because they have no vested interest in buying this particular part... as it that whopping 1-2 whp difference is worth arguing over[/QUOTE]
You are completely wrong about the position I have taken and the motivation behind it. As I said, I think they SHOULD be legal but are not per the current rules. If they make it legal maybe I'll put the hoses on. But again, who really cares!? Like you all keep saying, it's only 1 or 2 HP. So why bother!?:rolleyes:
[QUOTE]Seems to me that there is too much of "I don't have it, so no one can have it".[/QUOTE]
It is not the other WRX owners you should worry about the most. The people most likely to protest you and some of the most vocal people on this topic don't visit this board. Can you imagine why this is? Maybe not so I'll tell you. It's the competition that is running NA cars. Ever hear of an Integra Type R? These are the guys that want to make sure we can't develop ANY more HP than the rules specifically state so they don't lose their perceived ability to compete with a fully prepared WRX. I am not arguing for this rule nor do I believe it is a good rule. I am telling you that those that are proponents of it will protest you. Again, go ahead and run it if you are so sure of your argument. I'm trying to save you the time you will waste arguing over it because it's been established in the past.
You are completely wrong about the position I have taken and the motivation behind it. As I said, I think they SHOULD be legal but are not per the current rules. If they make it legal maybe I'll put the hoses on. But again, who really cares!? Like you all keep saying, it's only 1 or 2 HP. So why bother!?:rolleyes:
[QUOTE]Seems to me that there is too much of "I don't have it, so no one can have it".[/QUOTE]
It is not the other WRX owners you should worry about the most. The people most likely to protest you and some of the most vocal people on this topic don't visit this board. Can you imagine why this is? Maybe not so I'll tell you. It's the competition that is running NA cars. Ever hear of an Integra Type R? These are the guys that want to make sure we can't develop ANY more HP than the rules specifically state so they don't lose their perceived ability to compete with a fully prepared WRX. I am not arguing for this rule nor do I believe it is a good rule. I am telling you that those that are proponents of it will protest you. Again, go ahead and run it if you are so sure of your argument. I'm trying to save you the time you will waste arguing over it because it's been established in the past.
| trhoppe | 05-22-2003 09:00 PM |
*intercooler* hoses are part of the IC just the same as Swaybar endlinks are considered part of the swaybar.
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. Now I don't care whether you win, lose, whatever. I will just protest to *see* what happens. The decision there WILL be final and WILL be the end of this stupid argument.
-Tom
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. Now I don't care whether you win, lose, whatever. I will just protest to *see* what happens. The decision there WILL be final and WILL be the end of this stupid argument.
-Tom
| Orion | 05-23-2003 01:09 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. Now I don't care whether you win, lose, whatever. I will just protest to *see* what happens. The decision there WILL be final and WILL be the end of this stupid argument.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.;)
[B]
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. Now I don't care whether you win, lose, whatever. I will just protest to *see* what happens. The decision there WILL be final and WILL be the end of this stupid argument.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed 100%.;)
| MNbiker | 05-23-2003 07:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]*intercooler* hoses are part of the IC just the same as Swaybar endlinks are considered part of the swaybar.
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. Now I don't care whether you win, lose, whatever. I will just protest to *see* what happens. The decision there WILL be final and WILL be the end of this stupid argument.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Now we just need a sacrificial lamb for Tom to protest at Nationals. Maybe they can also install a dual-map ECUTek and a single high-flow cat, so we can knock down several issues at once!:lol::lol:
[B]*intercooler* hoses are part of the IC just the same as Swaybar endlinks are considered part of the swaybar.
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. Now I don't care whether you win, lose, whatever. I will just protest to *see* what happens. The decision there WILL be final and WILL be the end of this stupid argument.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Now we just need a sacrificial lamb for Tom to protest at Nationals. Maybe they can also install a dual-map ECUTek and a single high-flow cat, so we can knock down several issues at once!:lol::lol:
| shifterkartracer | 05-23-2003 09:04 AM |
Now you guys are really thinking.:)
| AUTOwrXER | 05-23-2003 11:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
Now we just need a sacrificial lamb for Tom to protest at Nationals. Maybe they can also install a dual-map ECUTek and a single high-flow cat, so we can knock down several issues at once!:lol::lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
No crap. I'd like to see these things put to rest once and for all :rolleyes:
Come to think of it, I have a single high-flow cat in the midpipe (Vishnu system) and an ECUTek (early single-map program). I'm only a couple intercooler hoses away. I wouldn't want to wait for Nationals though, but I'll be at the Toledo and Peru National Tours...
Joel
[B]
Now we just need a sacrificial lamb for Tom to protest at Nationals. Maybe they can also install a dual-map ECUTek and a single high-flow cat, so we can knock down several issues at once!:lol::lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
No crap. I'd like to see these things put to rest once and for all :rolleyes:
Come to think of it, I have a single high-flow cat in the midpipe (Vishnu system) and an ECUTek (early single-map program). I'm only a couple intercooler hoses away. I wouldn't want to wait for Nationals though, but I'll be at the Toledo and Peru National Tours...
Joel
| BOY | 05-23-2003 11:09 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shifterkartracer [/i]
[B]
You are completely wrong about the position I have taken and the motivation behind it. As I said, I think they SHOULD be legal but are not per the current rules. If they make it legal maybe I'll put the hoses on. But again, who really cares!? ...
It is not the other WRX owners you should worry about the most. [/B][/QUOTE]
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular... OK, I was and he chimed in:
[quote][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[b]
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. [/b][/quote]
You are right though Tom, the argument does need to be put to rest. Much like our beloved ALK, which has [u]finally[/u] been clarified in Fasttrack:[quote] Original [b]Chassis[/b] attachment points [/quote]. The ALK attaches to the chassis in the same spot as the stock pieces, done, no argument any more, ALK is legal for SM (sorry, had to get that one in).
[B]
You are completely wrong about the position I have taken and the motivation behind it. As I said, I think they SHOULD be legal but are not per the current rules. If they make it legal maybe I'll put the hoses on. But again, who really cares!? ...
It is not the other WRX owners you should worry about the most. [/B][/QUOTE]
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular... OK, I was and he chimed in:
[quote][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[b]
I will say this. If I see them at a national event, you WILL get protested. [/b][/quote]
You are right though Tom, the argument does need to be put to rest. Much like our beloved ALK, which has [u]finally[/u] been clarified in Fasttrack:[quote] Original [b]Chassis[/b] attachment points [/quote]. The ALK attaches to the chassis in the same spot as the stock pieces, done, no argument any more, ALK is legal for SM (sorry, had to get that one in).
| FlySpy | 05-23-2003 09:21 PM |
I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL!
| trhoppe | 05-23-2003 10:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FlySpy [/i]
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE] Wow youre dumb. If you have no vested interest in STX please dont post stuff like this in this thread. This has nothing to do with anyone's driving skill. Its about sticking to the rules.
-Tom
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE] Wow youre dumb. If you have no vested interest in STX please dont post stuff like this in this thread. This has nothing to do with anyone's driving skill. Its about sticking to the rules.
-Tom
| MNbiker | 05-23-2003 10:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FlySpy [/i]
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE]
Last time I checked, a number of those responding to this thread spend plenty of time honing their already considerable driving skills. (not including myself in this category, but I'm working on it. :p)
BTW - nice spelling! :rolleyes:
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE]
Last time I checked, a number of those responding to this thread spend plenty of time honing their already considerable driving skills. (not including myself in this category, but I'm working on it. :p)
BTW - nice spelling! :rolleyes:
| Orion | 05-24-2003 12:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FlySpy [/i]
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow. I didn't think you'd sink to that low of a level.:rolleyes:
As Tom said, I have yet to see you run an event in STX.
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow. I didn't think you'd sink to that low of a level.:rolleyes:
As Tom said, I have yet to see you run an event in STX.
| AUTOwrXER | 05-26-2003 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by FlySpy [/i]
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE]
Please return to the "dress up" forum asap. That is all.
[B]I think some of the people on this topic need to worry more about improving their driving skills and worry less baout protesting people as some kind a F'ing social ecperiment. GET REAL! [/B][/QUOTE]
Please return to the "dress up" forum asap. That is all.
| fengshui-fu | 05-27-2003 11:12 PM |
I think many agree on the subject and the real problem lies with getting the SCCA rulebook folks to come around with a clear and definited answer. This is the problem with classifying a growing number of cars and a exponential growing number of aftermarket parts for those cars.
chris
chris
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét