| spazegun2213 | 01-25-2007 09:08 AM |
anyone know who this was?
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[url]http://axisofoversteer.blogspot.com/2007/01/subaru-asshattery.html[/url]
i mean really, wtf was that? I always get mad when i see stuff like this on the street... but on the track!?!? really there are point-bys for a reason.... cool your heels till you get one, then have a good time.
i mean really, wtf was that? I always get mad when i see stuff like this on the street... but on the track!?!? really there are point-bys for a reason.... cool your heels till you get one, then have a good time.
| gotsol | 01-25-2007 09:29 AM |
to bad the WRX and STI have become the new "tool box" cars
| mav1c | 01-25-2007 10:25 AM |
Ya know...it was an asshat move, but the WRX was obviously much faster, and the Miata did come over to the right. The Subie driver should have just backed off and waited for a better place to pass instead of gunning it through the grass, but I can sort of see that maybe he didn't expect the Miata to come over so much and was avoiding. If that was the case, the real asshat move would have been not going to the Miata driver in the pits and talking about it.
..but after reading the site, it sounds like he was really an asshat. :rolleyes:
..but after reading the site, it sounds like he was really an asshat. :rolleyes:
| REX8 | 01-25-2007 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213;16802936][url]http://axisofoversteer.blogspot.com/2007/01/subaru-asshattery.html[/url]
i mean really, wtf was that? I always get mad when i see stuff like this on the street... but on the track!?!? really there are point-bys for a reason.... cool your heels till you get one, then have a good time.[/QUOTE]
It really looks like the Miata faded right appruptly and he moved into the grass to give room.
Watch it again, the Miata, maybe not looking in his mirrors, starts to pinch him off, rather than take the chance of rubbing doors, he puts two off to be "safe".
If this was group 4, and there are no points, I'd say the miata's fade right, without looking, was more of the problem.
Not saying I would have attempted to pass there, but I bet its common to do so. If you're in a Miata, in a fast run group, you'd have to be looking through that section...
i mean really, wtf was that? I always get mad when i see stuff like this on the street... but on the track!?!? really there are point-bys for a reason.... cool your heels till you get one, then have a good time.[/QUOTE]
It really looks like the Miata faded right appruptly and he moved into the grass to give room.
Watch it again, the Miata, maybe not looking in his mirrors, starts to pinch him off, rather than take the chance of rubbing doors, he puts two off to be "safe".
If this was group 4, and there are no points, I'd say the miata's fade right, without looking, was more of the problem.
Not saying I would have attempted to pass there, but I bet its common to do so. If you're in a Miata, in a fast run group, you'd have to be looking through that section...
| REX8 | 01-25-2007 12:32 PM |
I certainly don't think the WRX was attempting to pass on the grass, until he had a big run on him, and the miata started fading right.
I actually think a handfull of brake, considering the speed differential there may have been MORE dangerous mid-corner than having him put two off for a second...
Without more info on the run-group, etc....I'm saying the Miata should have seen him, and I don't blame the guy for not jumping on the brakes mid-bend when the Miata started to fade right, he was already along side of him...
I actually think a handfull of brake, considering the speed differential there may have been MORE dangerous mid-corner than having him put two off for a second...
Without more info on the run-group, etc....I'm saying the Miata should have seen him, and I don't blame the guy for not jumping on the brakes mid-bend when the Miata started to fade right, he was already along side of him...
| slidecontrol | 01-25-2007 12:52 PM |
Quick time is great for pulling with the mouse and going real slow.
If you align the two videos, from behind the STi, you can see before hand that he was very anxious to get past. IMO, that slight right was not the place, given the racing line makes the Miata "fade right" just a bit. The STi should have known that and been on the watch for it.
Now, if you look from the Miata's video, he certainly does know the STi was there, he even corrects is mirror to watch him. Then as that slight right comes up, he begins to follow the line, and at the last second sees the STi coming hard on the right and so he jerks the wheel left.
I think it was both their fault. The Miata should have known how aggressive (stupid) the STi wanted to pass him, therefore should have just let him past. The STi was being an asshat for sure, and needs to drive like a professional, not some idiot who has never raced in his life.
[I]Slides soap box back into corner and deposits .02 cents into machine. [/I]
If you align the two videos, from behind the STi, you can see before hand that he was very anxious to get past. IMO, that slight right was not the place, given the racing line makes the Miata "fade right" just a bit. The STi should have known that and been on the watch for it.
Now, if you look from the Miata's video, he certainly does know the STi was there, he even corrects is mirror to watch him. Then as that slight right comes up, he begins to follow the line, and at the last second sees the STi coming hard on the right and so he jerks the wheel left.
I think it was both their fault. The Miata should have known how aggressive (stupid) the STi wanted to pass him, therefore should have just let him past. The STi was being an asshat for sure, and needs to drive like a professional, not some idiot who has never raced in his life.
[I]Slides soap box back into corner and deposits .02 cents into machine. [/I]
| 10th Warrior | 01-25-2007 01:01 PM |
[quote]It really looks like the Miata faded right appruptly and he moved into the grass to give room.[/quote]
The miata was just driving the correct line, nothing abrubt about that. The Subaru driver should have waited; everyone else gets by cleanly.
The miata was just driving the correct line, nothing abrubt about that. The Subaru driver should have waited; everyone else gets by cleanly.
| REX8 | 01-25-2007 01:28 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior;16806101]The miata was just driving the correct line, nothing abrubt about that. The Subaru driver should have waited; everyone else gets by cleanly.[/QUOTE]
No, what I'm saying is this:
IF this is not controlled passsing, then the Subaru doesn't have to wait. The Miata should have been looking.
The other cars didn't have the power to complete the pass in that short burst, the Subaru did.
In group 4, passing is allowed ANYWHERE. Guys don't wait, they pass mid-corner, under braking, whereever. The Miata shoudl have seen him, and stayed left, alittle off line, like is done ALL THE TIME in those run groups.
If another car is making a run up the inside, you may just not get to run the proper line that time through.
Again, if this is group 4, I can't see how anyone is making such a big deal about this.
Those guys pass EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE. Its an understanding to STAY looking in your mirrors and realize that high powered cars are going to be coming around you at any chance.
No, what I'm saying is this:
IF this is not controlled passsing, then the Subaru doesn't have to wait. The Miata should have been looking.
The other cars didn't have the power to complete the pass in that short burst, the Subaru did.
In group 4, passing is allowed ANYWHERE. Guys don't wait, they pass mid-corner, under braking, whereever. The Miata shoudl have seen him, and stayed left, alittle off line, like is done ALL THE TIME in those run groups.
If another car is making a run up the inside, you may just not get to run the proper line that time through.
Again, if this is group 4, I can't see how anyone is making such a big deal about this.
Those guys pass EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE. Its an understanding to STAY looking in your mirrors and realize that high powered cars are going to be coming around you at any chance.
| REX8 | 01-25-2007 01:34 PM |
*** The Subaru was at least partially along side of the Miata when the Miata moved right to stay on his line.
In group 4, you think the Miata shouldn't have hung outside?
I'm not saying group 4 should make passes like this, but the fact is, they do. Its a regular practice. You can be damn sure a lot of group 4 passes occur around that bend during a session.
In group 4, you think the Miata shouldn't have hung outside?
I'm not saying group 4 should make passes like this, but the fact is, they do. Its a regular practice. You can be damn sure a lot of group 4 passes occur around that bend during a session.
| Ralliart4 | 01-25-2007 02:15 PM |
I am not familiar with the class requirements or the track but from my experience here is my opinion;
Why is the subaru accused of being at fault?
Yes he did clip the outside grass line with the tracks natural direction and elevation change. What is wrong with that? It is not as if he dove totally off the track plowing all four wheels in the grass to gain an unfair advantage to pass.
My observation is also:
1. The miata driver is a 'blocker.' And those are the people that cause other people to have accidents. You can see him floating all over the fast lines of the track and then before the pass he realizes that he is about to be passed and attempted a block move.
2. When you see a faster car attack you from behind and start to have all kinds of twitchy moves because you are obviously clogging up the fast traffic. PULL THE F OVER!! He constantly attacked every corner after squeezing out the lines of the people outbraking him. He had a little bit of a stretch to pull over and even in the pass area he could have just kept way left but as we can see he did not he charged ahead at full roar. (the scooby guy could have probably flashed him a couple times too) If you are underpowered and you know it thats not cool to be a blocker.
3. After the pass there was that bmw that could have passed at the same time after he was scared to the left by the scooby, note the next direction change is to the left so he could have still kept left, held his momentum and still allowed people to pass :). The bmw driver it seems although being angry decided to be the safe driver and no pass (he had the space and the power).
Please guys dont jump down my throat.
Why is the subaru accused of being at fault?
Yes he did clip the outside grass line with the tracks natural direction and elevation change. What is wrong with that? It is not as if he dove totally off the track plowing all four wheels in the grass to gain an unfair advantage to pass.
My observation is also:
1. The miata driver is a 'blocker.' And those are the people that cause other people to have accidents. You can see him floating all over the fast lines of the track and then before the pass he realizes that he is about to be passed and attempted a block move.
2. When you see a faster car attack you from behind and start to have all kinds of twitchy moves because you are obviously clogging up the fast traffic. PULL THE F OVER!! He constantly attacked every corner after squeezing out the lines of the people outbraking him. He had a little bit of a stretch to pull over and even in the pass area he could have just kept way left but as we can see he did not he charged ahead at full roar. (the scooby guy could have probably flashed him a couple times too) If you are underpowered and you know it thats not cool to be a blocker.
3. After the pass there was that bmw that could have passed at the same time after he was scared to the left by the scooby, note the next direction change is to the left so he could have still kept left, held his momentum and still allowed people to pass :). The bmw driver it seems although being angry decided to be the safe driver and no pass (he had the space and the power).
Please guys dont jump down my throat.
| ToddStratton | 01-25-2007 02:47 PM |
WRX - Impatient? yes.
Miata - Inconsiderate or not paying attention? - yes
I've seen much worse...Heck those cars didn't even get close in my book.
Todd
Miata - Inconsiderate or not paying attention? - yes
I've seen much worse...Heck those cars didn't even get close in my book.
Todd
| 10th Warrior | 01-25-2007 02:52 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8;16806551]No, what I'm saying is this:
IF this is not controlled passsing, then the Subaru doesn't have to wait. The Miata should have been looking.
The other cars didn't have the power to complete the pass in that short burst, the Subaru did.
In group 4, passing is allowed ANYWHERE. Guys don't wait, they pass mid-corner, under braking, whereever. The Miata shoudl have seen him, and stayed left, alittle off line, like is done ALL THE TIME in those run groups.
If another car is making a run up the inside, you may just not get to run the proper line that time through.
Again, if this is group 4, I can't see how anyone is making such a big deal about this.
Those guys pass EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE. Its an understanding to STAY looking in your mirrors and realize that high powered cars are going to be coming around you at any chance.[/QUOTE]
The passing may have been open, but that doesn't entitle you to make a dangerous pass. Regardless, the Subaru driver should have been expecting the Miata to drive their line, which is what he should have and did do.
IF this is not controlled passsing, then the Subaru doesn't have to wait. The Miata should have been looking.
The other cars didn't have the power to complete the pass in that short burst, the Subaru did.
In group 4, passing is allowed ANYWHERE. Guys don't wait, they pass mid-corner, under braking, whereever. The Miata shoudl have seen him, and stayed left, alittle off line, like is done ALL THE TIME in those run groups.
If another car is making a run up the inside, you may just not get to run the proper line that time through.
Again, if this is group 4, I can't see how anyone is making such a big deal about this.
Those guys pass EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE. Its an understanding to STAY looking in your mirrors and realize that high powered cars are going to be coming around you at any chance.[/QUOTE]
The passing may have been open, but that doesn't entitle you to make a dangerous pass. Regardless, the Subaru driver should have been expecting the Miata to drive their line, which is what he should have and did do.
| burned | 01-25-2007 02:52 PM |
:lol: i would done the same!
| REX8 | 01-25-2007 03:00 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior;16808008]The passing may have been open, but that doesn't entitle you to make a dangerous pass. Regardless, the Subaru driver should have been expecting the Miata to drive their line, which is what he should have and did do.[/QUOTE]
What???
Since when do you get to drive your line if a faster car has moved up at least a fender along side of you to pass?
I'm not saying the Suby driver was being impatient BUT..
IF the Miata driver WOULD have seen him, it would have been like every other PERFECTLY FINE pass in group 4. [B]So how does the fact that the Miata forgets to check his mirrors make a normal pass a horrible unsafe move by the Subaru driver[/B]???
If YOU'RE getting passed, and you stay on your line, pinching another driver off, you've done something unsafe as well...
"Hey, theres a subaru at my fender, coming around me ...I'll just stick to my normal line and make him check up" :huh: <-- is that how they tell you to drive in your region?????? You must be kidding.
Its obvious he didn't see him, and the Subaru could've been more patient...but if you think the Miata shouldn't have been in his mirrors and expecting that pass WAY before...
Well, stay out of my run group.
I'm not saying that guys shouldn't be making passes like that in general. But the bottom line is, in open passing sessions, they are, and its just as much a responsibility of the guy in front to stay in his mirrors than it is for the guy behind to make a good decision about where and when to go.
Again, if the Miata driver sees him, this is a totally normal, non-event. So how can you guys bash the Impreza driver so much???? <-- thats all I'm saying.
What???
Since when do you get to drive your line if a faster car has moved up at least a fender along side of you to pass?
I'm not saying the Suby driver was being impatient BUT..
IF the Miata driver WOULD have seen him, it would have been like every other PERFECTLY FINE pass in group 4. [B]So how does the fact that the Miata forgets to check his mirrors make a normal pass a horrible unsafe move by the Subaru driver[/B]???
If YOU'RE getting passed, and you stay on your line, pinching another driver off, you've done something unsafe as well...
"Hey, theres a subaru at my fender, coming around me ...I'll just stick to my normal line and make him check up" :huh: <-- is that how they tell you to drive in your region?????? You must be kidding.
Its obvious he didn't see him, and the Subaru could've been more patient...but if you think the Miata shouldn't have been in his mirrors and expecting that pass WAY before...
Well, stay out of my run group.
I'm not saying that guys shouldn't be making passes like that in general. But the bottom line is, in open passing sessions, they are, and its just as much a responsibility of the guy in front to stay in his mirrors than it is for the guy behind to make a good decision about where and when to go.
Again, if the Miata driver sees him, this is a totally normal, non-event. So how can you guys bash the Impreza driver so much???? <-- thats all I'm saying.
| pio!pio! | 01-25-2007 03:13 PM |
ralliart4: your argument is good for racing, but they aren't racing...
it's hot lapping..
the miata took the racing line, which he is entitled to since he is ahead...he actualyl jerked back and didn't apex cuz the impreza plowed it's way through.
it's hot lapping..the impreza should have been more patient..if you feel impatient on hot lapping..pull into the pits..calm down..wait for more room, then head out again...
it's also the responsibility of the passing car to ensure he does so safely...now no one got hurt..but that looked risky and unsafe to me...
also..i dont think the miata is blocking at all since he is just taking the normal line, and also there isn't really any straightaways in which to give way...
it's hot lapping..
the miata took the racing line, which he is entitled to since he is ahead...he actualyl jerked back and didn't apex cuz the impreza plowed it's way through.
it's hot lapping..the impreza should have been more patient..if you feel impatient on hot lapping..pull into the pits..calm down..wait for more room, then head out again...
it's also the responsibility of the passing car to ensure he does so safely...now no one got hurt..but that looked risky and unsafe to me...
also..i dont think the miata is blocking at all since he is just taking the normal line, and also there isn't really any straightaways in which to give way...
| TubeDriver | 01-25-2007 03:23 PM |
Nothing that I could see (I could only watch the Miata in car video) would lead to being booted from an event. The Suby driver must have had a series of close calls in order to get booted from an event.
The WRX could have waited a little longer and the Miata could have facilitated the pass better. Putting two wheels off while passing is a no no.
Still, the fact that the Suby driver was booted means he probably repeatedly drove like an asshat and refused to listen.
I was assuming this a group 4 run group. NASA Group 3/4 tends to be pretty quick and passing is allowed anywhere WITH a point by. If this situation did not happen in group 3/4, ie the Suby driver passed in a turn where passing is prohibited then he should have been black flagged and read the riot act (ie do that again and you go home). It sounds like this is what happened?
The WRX could have waited a little longer and the Miata could have facilitated the pass better. Putting two wheels off while passing is a no no.
Still, the fact that the Suby driver was booted means he probably repeatedly drove like an asshat and refused to listen.
I was assuming this a group 4 run group. NASA Group 3/4 tends to be pretty quick and passing is allowed anywhere WITH a point by. If this situation did not happen in group 3/4, ie the Suby driver passed in a turn where passing is prohibited then he should have been black flagged and read the riot act (ie do that again and you go home). It sounds like this is what happened?
| Ralliart4 | 01-25-2007 03:42 PM |
[quote=pio!pio!;16808320]ralliart4: your argument is good for racing, but they aren't racing...
it's hot lapping..
the miata took the racing line, which he is entitled to since he is ahead...he actualyl jerked back and didn't apex cuz the impreza plowed it's way through.
it's hot lapping..the impreza should have been more patient..if you feel impatient on hot lapping..pull into the pits..calm down..wait for more room, then head out again...
it's also the responsibility of the passing car to ensure he does so safely...now no one got hurt..but that looked risky and unsafe to me...
also..i dont think the miata is blocking at all since he is just taking the normal line, and also there isn't really any straightaways in which to give way...[/quote]
Im sorry. I feel so ignorant :huh: . What is hot lapping?
In jamaica i compete in a entry level race series called IP45 that has very strict control over passing and passing zones to to keep things safe. So we have had to learn to argue the passing stuff quite alot.
I live in the US but compete in Jamaica so im not too familiar with the US way of doing things. Please give me a little help so i can learn :)
it's hot lapping..
the miata took the racing line, which he is entitled to since he is ahead...he actualyl jerked back and didn't apex cuz the impreza plowed it's way through.
it's hot lapping..the impreza should have been more patient..if you feel impatient on hot lapping..pull into the pits..calm down..wait for more room, then head out again...
it's also the responsibility of the passing car to ensure he does so safely...now no one got hurt..but that looked risky and unsafe to me...
also..i dont think the miata is blocking at all since he is just taking the normal line, and also there isn't really any straightaways in which to give way...[/quote]
Im sorry. I feel so ignorant :huh: . What is hot lapping?
In jamaica i compete in a entry level race series called IP45 that has very strict control over passing and passing zones to to keep things safe. So we have had to learn to argue the passing stuff quite alot.
I live in the US but compete in Jamaica so im not too familiar with the US way of doing things. Please give me a little help so i can learn :)
| cooleyjb | 01-25-2007 03:49 PM |
WRX driver got flustered when he saw his mirror full of 3 cars. He tried to pass in a stupid place. He had enough power on that car to pass the Miata in a straight.
He instead didn't have a pass completed before a turn and all of sudden found himself running out of track room because he stuck his nose in where he shouldn't have. 2 turn and about 15 seconds later he could have easily made a safe pass down a straight.
The Subaru driver was driving pretty agressive and poorly (at least from what was seen in the clip). That kind of move at a lapping day would have been a final warning or sent home if other issues were happening at any credible track day.
This wasn't wheel to wheel. There is no need to be passing people through the turns like that.
He instead didn't have a pass completed before a turn and all of sudden found himself running out of track room because he stuck his nose in where he shouldn't have. 2 turn and about 15 seconds later he could have easily made a safe pass down a straight.
The Subaru driver was driving pretty agressive and poorly (at least from what was seen in the clip). That kind of move at a lapping day would have been a final warning or sent home if other issues were happening at any credible track day.
This wasn't wheel to wheel. There is no need to be passing people through the turns like that.
| cooleyjb | 01-25-2007 03:50 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8;16808133]
Again, if the Miata driver sees him, this is a totally normal, non-event. So how can you guys bash the Impreza driver so much???? <-- thats all I'm saying.[/QUOTE]
That's the problem. The WRX driver was behind him for some time and then all of sudden stuck his nose into a corner. That's the WRX being at fault.
Again, if the Miata driver sees him, this is a totally normal, non-event. So how can you guys bash the Impreza driver so much???? <-- thats all I'm saying.[/QUOTE]
That's the problem. The WRX driver was behind him for some time and then all of sudden stuck his nose into a corner. That's the WRX being at fault.
| Patrick Olsen | 01-25-2007 03:57 PM |
What is this "group 4" that REX8 keeps referring to? :confused: Is that the Black run group or the Red run group? Or is it Advanced? Intermediate? And why is anyone assuming this guy is in an experienced run group?
Being well familiar with Lime Rock, I can definitively say the Subaru driver was a dumbass, regardless of what run group he's in. With the power/speed advantage he's got over the Miata, there's more than enough time after that kink in the No Name straight to get by without having to go through the grass.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Being well familiar with Lime Rock, I can definitively say the Subaru driver was a dumbass, regardless of what run group he's in. With the power/speed advantage he's got over the Miata, there's more than enough time after that kink in the No Name straight to get by without having to go through the grass.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| 10th Warrior | 01-25-2007 04:02 PM |
REX8:
What are [I]you[/I] talking about? When the Miata turns in, the STi isn't even level with his rear bumper. The Miata was definitely in the lead; the corner was his. He did the smart thing of taking the normal line. The STi driver could have waited 3 seconds and powered past after the apex but instead he decieded to throw his nose in. As you say, it [I]would[/I] have been a fine pass if the miata had bequeathed it to him but he hadn't pointed the Subaru by so the Subi driver [I]should[/I] have assumed the miata would continue on his line. It is absolutely the responsiblity of the overtaking car to make sure its a clean safe pass.
What are [I]you[/I] talking about? When the Miata turns in, the STi isn't even level with his rear bumper. The Miata was definitely in the lead; the corner was his. He did the smart thing of taking the normal line. The STi driver could have waited 3 seconds and powered past after the apex but instead he decieded to throw his nose in. As you say, it [I]would[/I] have been a fine pass if the miata had bequeathed it to him but he hadn't pointed the Subaru by so the Subi driver [I]should[/I] have assumed the miata would continue on his line. It is absolutely the responsiblity of the overtaking car to make sure its a clean safe pass.
| AndrewSS | 01-25-2007 04:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen;16809076]What is this "group 4" that REX8 keeps referring to? :confused: Is that the Black run group or the Red run group? Or is it Advanced? Intermediate? And why is anyone assuming this guy is in an experienced run group?
Being well familiar with Lime Rock, I can definitively say the Subaru driver was a dumbass, regardless of what run group he's in. With the power/speed advantage he's got over the Miata, there's more than enough time after that kink in the No Name straight to get by without having to go through the grass.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan[/QUOTE]
I assume he is talking about NASA's HPDE 4 (they start at HPDE 1,2,3,4). To my understanding HPDE 4 is just like NASA's TT rules except they dont compete in the TT timing competition. With that said, I have never understood peoples infatuation with driving at a casual track day like its racing. This is why I stay away from those sorts of trackday events. I dont like to drive in any event where you dont have to point by. That is when stupid crap like that can happen, it puts too much trust in the others IMO. That is, given the context of taking a road-car to the track (which I am assuming the STi was not a real race car).
Anyway, I guess my point is, the rules maybe as such (no point by necessary, pass anywhere), however I look at this video of evidence of situations that arise from those circumstances of (for example) HPDE 4+ driving.
Bottom line, I will stick to HPDE 3 driving (point by and designated passing) - I will stay from "wanna-be" racing antics with my roadcar at a fun track-day. I prefer to drive the thing after the event home... ;)
ps. with that said, atleast the organization at the event shown in the video kicked the guy out... I am sure there are some good manners at non-pass by groups but I just dont wanna take those "risks" to each their own I guess...
Hope that mini-rant made sense. :disco:
Being well familiar with Lime Rock, I can definitively say the Subaru driver was a dumbass, regardless of what run group he's in. With the power/speed advantage he's got over the Miata, there's more than enough time after that kink in the No Name straight to get by without having to go through the grass.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan[/QUOTE]
I assume he is talking about NASA's HPDE 4 (they start at HPDE 1,2,3,4). To my understanding HPDE 4 is just like NASA's TT rules except they dont compete in the TT timing competition. With that said, I have never understood peoples infatuation with driving at a casual track day like its racing. This is why I stay away from those sorts of trackday events. I dont like to drive in any event where you dont have to point by. That is when stupid crap like that can happen, it puts too much trust in the others IMO. That is, given the context of taking a road-car to the track (which I am assuming the STi was not a real race car).
Anyway, I guess my point is, the rules maybe as such (no point by necessary, pass anywhere), however I look at this video of evidence of situations that arise from those circumstances of (for example) HPDE 4+ driving.
Bottom line, I will stick to HPDE 3 driving (point by and designated passing) - I will stay from "wanna-be" racing antics with my roadcar at a fun track-day. I prefer to drive the thing after the event home... ;)
ps. with that said, atleast the organization at the event shown in the video kicked the guy out... I am sure there are some good manners at non-pass by groups but I just dont wanna take those "risks" to each their own I guess...
Hope that mini-rant made sense. :disco:
| TubeDriver | 01-25-2007 05:12 PM |
NASA group 4 is basically for instructors and allows passing anywhere on the track WITH a pointby.
| sirfrankwilliams | 01-25-2007 05:42 PM |
^ My understanding (from our driver meetings) is that NASA [I][SIZE=1](at least here in Northern CA)[/SIZE][/I] does [B]not[/B] require point-bys.:confused: But it is always stressed not to drive like an asshat (not those exact words however). If you put two wheels off you're going to get a black flag and get a talkin' to about what led up to it.
Agreed, a lot more prudence should have been used regardless of what group this was. There's no reason to pull a move like that in HPDE.
It would have been interesting to sit in on the driver's meeting on this one.
Agreed, a lot more prudence should have been used regardless of what group this was. There's no reason to pull a move like that in HPDE.
It would have been interesting to sit in on the driver's meeting on this one.
| HoRo1 | 01-25-2007 05:55 PM |
[QUOTE=REX8;16806551]No, what I'm saying is this:
IF this is not controlled passsing, then the Subaru doesn't have to wait. The Miata should have been looking...[/QUOTE]
The Miata driver should have been looking? The responsibilty is on the driver DOING the overtaking, not the one being overtaken.
As to the Subaru driver - he's (or she's?) ****ing clueless - far too much car for his or her ability. Did you see the line that he was taking?
IF this is not controlled passsing, then the Subaru doesn't have to wait. The Miata should have been looking...[/QUOTE]
The Miata driver should have been looking? The responsibilty is on the driver DOING the overtaking, not the one being overtaken.
As to the Subaru driver - he's (or she's?) ****ing clueless - far too much car for his or her ability. Did you see the line that he was taking?
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 10:53 AM |
You guys are funny.
A track day is irresponsible by definition. Why is this video suprising?
If anything, i think the blue subaru was just giving the miata room to get by incase he moved back in.
I think his only error was that he didn't give the middle finger as he drove past.
Its more fast in the grass.
A track day is irresponsible by definition. Why is this video suprising?
If anything, i think the blue subaru was just giving the miata room to get by incase he moved back in.
I think his only error was that he didn't give the middle finger as he drove past.
Its more fast in the grass.
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE=HoRo1;16810825]The Miata driver should have been looking? The responsibilty is on the driver DOING the overtaking, not the one being overtaken.
As to the Subaru driver - he's (or she's?) ****ing clueless - far too much car for his or her ability. Did you see the line that he was taking?[/QUOTE]
the correct line is the line that you take to win. You can't always take the perfect line, or you'll never pass anyone as everyone is trying to be on the perfect line.
As to the Subaru driver - he's (or she's?) ****ing clueless - far too much car for his or her ability. Did you see the line that he was taking?[/QUOTE]
the correct line is the line that you take to win. You can't always take the perfect line, or you'll never pass anyone as everyone is trying to be on the perfect line.
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 10:58 AM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior;16809151]REX8:
What are [I]you[/I] talking about? When the Miata turns in, the STi isn't even level with his rear bumper. The Miata was definitely in the lead; [b]the corner was his[/b]. He did the smart thing of taking the normal line. The STi driver could have waited 3 seconds and powered past after the apex but instead he decieded to throw his nose in. As you say, it [I]would[/I] have been a fine pass [b]if the miata had bequeathed it to him[/b] but he hadn't pointed the Subaru by so the Subi driver [I]should[/I] have assumed the miata would continue on his line. It is absolutely the responsiblity of the overtaking car to make sure its a clean safe pass.[/QUOTE]
"The corner was his"?
"if the miata had bequeathed it to him"?
Where do you race? In some 1930s gentlemans racing club?
"clean safe pass."
LOL.
What are [I]you[/I] talking about? When the Miata turns in, the STi isn't even level with his rear bumper. The Miata was definitely in the lead; [b]the corner was his[/b]. He did the smart thing of taking the normal line. The STi driver could have waited 3 seconds and powered past after the apex but instead he decieded to throw his nose in. As you say, it [I]would[/I] have been a fine pass [b]if the miata had bequeathed it to him[/b] but he hadn't pointed the Subaru by so the Subi driver [I]should[/I] have assumed the miata would continue on his line. It is absolutely the responsiblity of the overtaking car to make sure its a clean safe pass.[/QUOTE]
"The corner was his"?
"if the miata had bequeathed it to him"?
Where do you race? In some 1930s gentlemans racing club?
"clean safe pass."
LOL.
| CHPgotnothingonME | 01-26-2007 11:08 AM |
so the wrx wins and all the wrx owners here are pissed off about it
welcome to nasioc!
welcome to nasioc!
| MattSTi | 01-26-2007 11:26 AM |
[QUOTE=eclip5e;16819302]the correct line is the line that you take to win. You can't always take the perfect line, or you'll never pass anyone as everyone is trying to be on the perfect line.[/QUOTE]
Anyone with your mentality should be banned from HPDE's. They are not competitve events and there is no "winning" even if there is open passing allowed. If you want to win a race, get into wheel-to-wheel racing with a properly prepared car.
-Matt
Anyone with your mentality should be banned from HPDE's. They are not competitve events and there is no "winning" even if there is open passing allowed. If you want to win a race, get into wheel-to-wheel racing with a properly prepared car.
-Matt
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 11:33 AM |
[QUOTE=MattSTi;16819740]Anyone with your mentality should be banned from HPDE's. They are not competitve events and there is no "winning" even if there is open passing allowed. If you want to win a race, get into wheel-to-wheel racing with a propertly prepared car.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
You've obvioulsly never done any HPDE events.
Eat a phallus.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
You've obvioulsly never done any HPDE events.
Eat a phallus.
| MattSTi | 01-26-2007 11:37 AM |
[QUOTE=eclip5e;16819823]You've obvioulsly never done any HPDE events.
Eat a phallus.[/QUOTE]
Yep, never done any HPDE events, except for the 12 over the past year and a half.
I realized I didn't want to be on the track with people like you who think you are racing so I built a real race car and decided to go racing.
Good luck.
-Matt
Eat a phallus.[/QUOTE]
Yep, never done any HPDE events, except for the 12 over the past year and a half.
I realized I didn't want to be on the track with people like you who think you are racing so I built a real race car and decided to go racing.
Good luck.
-Matt
| sirfrankwilliams | 01-26-2007 11:42 AM |
[quote=eclip5e;16819823]You've obvioulsly never done any HPDE events.[/quote]
:huh:
I was starting to think the same about you.
It is always stressed that NASA [B]HPDE is not a competition[/B]. There is no "winning". You can't do anything on the track to increase the value of yourself or your car- only the opposite.
I'm with Matt and glad I don't HPDE with you.
:huh:
I was starting to think the same about you.
It is always stressed that NASA [B]HPDE is not a competition[/B]. There is no "winning". You can't do anything on the track to increase the value of yourself or your car- only the opposite.
I'm with Matt and glad I don't HPDE with you.
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE=MattSTi;16819889]Yep, never done any HPDE events, except for the 12 over the past year and a half.
I realized I didn't want to be on the track with people like you who think you are racing so I built a real race car and decided to go racing.
Good luck.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you noticed, but i had said "eat a phallus".
Oh yea, and i won f1 last year... so beat that.
I realized I didn't want to be on the track with people like you who think you are racing so I built a real race car and decided to go racing.
Good luck.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you noticed, but i had said "eat a phallus".
Oh yea, and i won f1 last year... so beat that.
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE=sirfrankwilliams;16819952]:huh:
I was starting to think the same about you.
It is always stressed that NASA [B]HPDE is not a competition[/B]. There is no "winning". You can't do anything on the track to increase the value of yourself or your car- only the opposite.
I'm with Matt and glad I don't HPDE with you.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to find what HPDE events you do, and sign up!
I was starting to think the same about you.
It is always stressed that NASA [B]HPDE is not a competition[/B]. There is no "winning". You can't do anything on the track to increase the value of yourself or your car- only the opposite.
I'm with Matt and glad I don't HPDE with you.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to find what HPDE events you do, and sign up!
| MattSTi | 01-26-2007 11:47 AM |
[QUOTE=eclip5e;16819957]I don't know if you noticed, but i had said "eat a phallus".
Oh yea, and i won f1 last year... so beat that.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you noticed, but I ignored your immature comment.
-Matt
Oh yea, and i won f1 last year... so beat that.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you noticed, but I ignored your immature comment.
-Matt
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 11:50 AM |
[QUOTE=MattSTi;16820038]I don't know if you noticed, but I ignored your immature comment.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
If YOU noticed, i used the word "phallus" to make it more mature. You probably ignored it because you didn't know what it means because you're stupid.
[COLOR="Silver"]Lets keep in mind that my verbal bashing is just joking around. I don't really mean these nasty things, its purely for fun internet arguments.[/COLOR]
-Matt[/QUOTE]
If YOU noticed, i used the word "phallus" to make it more mature. You probably ignored it because you didn't know what it means because you're stupid.
[COLOR="Silver"]Lets keep in mind that my verbal bashing is just joking around. I don't really mean these nasty things, its purely for fun internet arguments.[/COLOR]
| re92 | 01-26-2007 12:20 PM |
Miata guys have to be whiniest group of track drivers out there. Waah waah he won't let me pass and powers away in the straight waa waah.
And then when they get passed, "Ya he passed me because he had more power." And then they run in the faster run groups and block traffic and whine about it.
Boo! I've taken all of No Name on the grass sideways. eclip5e - your punkass is going down next time we are on the track together. Look out for my oil slick.
Raj
And then when they get passed, "Ya he passed me because he had more power." And then they run in the faster run groups and block traffic and whine about it.
Boo! I've taken all of No Name on the grass sideways. eclip5e - your punkass is going down next time we are on the track together. Look out for my oil slick.
Raj
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 12:28 PM |
[QUOTE=re92;16820498]Miata guys have to be whiniest group of track drivers out there. Waah waah he won't let me pass and powers away in the straight waa waah.
And then when they get passed, "Ya he passed me because he had more power." And then they run in the faster run groups and block traffic and whine about it.
Boo! I've taken all of No Name on the grass sideways. eclip5e - your punkass is going down next time we are on the track together. Look out for my oil slick.
Raj[/QUOTE]
Oil doesn't make the grass any more slippery, which is where i'll be passing you :p
And then when they get passed, "Ya he passed me because he had more power." And then they run in the faster run groups and block traffic and whine about it.
Boo! I've taken all of No Name on the grass sideways. eclip5e - your punkass is going down next time we are on the track together. Look out for my oil slick.
Raj[/QUOTE]
Oil doesn't make the grass any more slippery, which is where i'll be passing you :p
| re92 | 01-26-2007 12:32 PM |
[QUOTE=eclip5e;16820590]Oil doesn't make the grass any more slippery, which is where i'll be passing you :p[/QUOTE]
**** that, I'm driving on the grass to force you to pass me on the racing line, which you are incapable of finding even if someone drew it for you with nude anime characters.
"Do you take the high line or do you take the low line into turn 1?"
"Who me? I dunno, I just sorta bomb in there."
Raj
**** that, I'm driving on the grass to force you to pass me on the racing line, which you are incapable of finding even if someone drew it for you with nude anime characters.
"Do you take the high line or do you take the low line into turn 1?"
"Who me? I dunno, I just sorta bomb in there."
Raj
| eclip5e | 01-26-2007 12:44 PM |
[QUOTE=re92;16820654]**** that, I'm driving on the grass to force you to pass me on the racing line, which you are incapable of finding even if someone drew it for you with nude anime characters.
"Do you take the high line or do you take the low line into turn 1?"
"Who me? I dunno, I just sorta bomb in there."
Raj[/QUOTE]
My line is a bit different, its the Initial D drifters line. Grip lines are for wankers.
"Do you take the high line or do you take the low line into turn 1?"
"Who me? I dunno, I just sorta bomb in there."
Raj[/QUOTE]
My line is a bit different, its the Initial D drifters line. Grip lines are for wankers.
| Bimmubishi | 01-26-2007 03:04 PM |
I'm a proponent of making a pass like this, it's important to show your fellow drivers that you're driving with unmistakeable force and determination. If that means putting two wheels off, stealing someone's line, crossing the infield to get ahead of 5 or 6 cars, drag racing out of the pit to merge into traffic, whatever.
Raj can only be passed on the grass if there's room for two cars. He's already on the grass.
Raj can only be passed on the grass if there's room for two cars. He's already on the grass.
| MattSTi | 01-26-2007 03:14 PM |
[QUOTE=eclip5e;16820079]If YOU noticed, i used the word "phallus" to make it more mature. You probably ignored it because you didn't know what it means because you're stupid.
[COLOR="Silver"]Lets keep in mind that my verbal bashing is just joking around. I don't really mean these nasty things, its purely for fun internet arguments.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with you about who's smarter, etc. With that being said, anyone who passed high school english knows what a phallus is.
Back on track - HPDE events are, by definition, driving education events. In no way should they be interpreted as "racing". The problem with HPDE events is that, even in the same run group, people can have completely different driving mindsets. On one hand, you have people like yourself who are concerned with being the fastest on the track. On the other hand, you have people who are trying to hone their driving skills in a reasonably well-controlled environment. Problems occur when people on both ends of the specturm happen to be on track together. This problem is compounded when people show up to the track in heavily-modified machines (ie. a 400 awhp STi or EVO) without a omparable level of driving experience or safety preparation. A bolt-in roll bar or roll cage is in no way sufficient protection for a lot of the cars on track, considering the speeds they can carry.
Fortunately, most sanctioning bodies and instructors do their best to spot dangerous behavior. However, no amount of policing will ever fully solve the problem. This is why I decided to get into club racing with a properly built race car. I know that EVERYONE on track is more or less on the same page as I am (albeit some people having differing opinions on bumping/contact).
I think that it is inappropriate and dangerous to try to "race" at an HPDE. If you want to be competitive, participate in a time trials event or get into club racing.
-Matt
[COLOR="Silver"]Lets keep in mind that my verbal bashing is just joking around. I don't really mean these nasty things, its purely for fun internet arguments.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with you about who's smarter, etc. With that being said, anyone who passed high school english knows what a phallus is.
Back on track - HPDE events are, by definition, driving education events. In no way should they be interpreted as "racing". The problem with HPDE events is that, even in the same run group, people can have completely different driving mindsets. On one hand, you have people like yourself who are concerned with being the fastest on the track. On the other hand, you have people who are trying to hone their driving skills in a reasonably well-controlled environment. Problems occur when people on both ends of the specturm happen to be on track together. This problem is compounded when people show up to the track in heavily-modified machines (ie. a 400 awhp STi or EVO) without a omparable level of driving experience or safety preparation. A bolt-in roll bar or roll cage is in no way sufficient protection for a lot of the cars on track, considering the speeds they can carry.
Fortunately, most sanctioning bodies and instructors do their best to spot dangerous behavior. However, no amount of policing will ever fully solve the problem. This is why I decided to get into club racing with a properly built race car. I know that EVERYONE on track is more or less on the same page as I am (albeit some people having differing opinions on bumping/contact).
I think that it is inappropriate and dangerous to try to "race" at an HPDE. If you want to be competitive, participate in a time trials event or get into club racing.
-Matt
| mav1c | 01-26-2007 03:22 PM |
Wow. This has really turned ugly, but entertaining.
I should contribute....but I am at a loss for words. :huh:
I should contribute....but I am at a loss for words. :huh:
| Paisan | 01-26-2007 04:25 PM |
Ok I'll weigh in here....
I highly doubt this was group 4 as an asshat like the Subaru driver wouldn't get that far!
The rules in all the HPDEs I've ever instructed at or driven at are quite clear, if you want to pass, you pass OFFLINE, it is not incumbent for the slow car to get out of the way of the faster cars, it is incumbent of the overtaking vehicle to pass SAFELY offline. This means that even if it is a passing zone, and you have a pointby, you have to pass in a SAFE manner. I've been given the pointby and waved it off in situations that could become hairy, some may say "oh you don't have the ballz to pass", my response is "We are here to have fun, there is no competition and everyone should go home with their cars un-scathed".
We don't quite have a complete picture here so it's pretty hard to judge the whole situation.
Rule of thumb if you see someone behind you who is fast, give em a wave, let em know that you know they are there, for me driving a really slow subaru (94 Legacy Turbo) knowing the guy in front of me is aware of me there and that he'll give me a point is cool, not to mention I can learn something from following his line.
As most folks have said this isn't a competition so there is no over-riding need to pass in an unsafe manner. PERIOD, if you want to pass like that pony up and get a race liscence, then we'll see how much balls that Subaru owner has....
-mike
I highly doubt this was group 4 as an asshat like the Subaru driver wouldn't get that far!
The rules in all the HPDEs I've ever instructed at or driven at are quite clear, if you want to pass, you pass OFFLINE, it is not incumbent for the slow car to get out of the way of the faster cars, it is incumbent of the overtaking vehicle to pass SAFELY offline. This means that even if it is a passing zone, and you have a pointby, you have to pass in a SAFE manner. I've been given the pointby and waved it off in situations that could become hairy, some may say "oh you don't have the ballz to pass", my response is "We are here to have fun, there is no competition and everyone should go home with their cars un-scathed".
We don't quite have a complete picture here so it's pretty hard to judge the whole situation.
Rule of thumb if you see someone behind you who is fast, give em a wave, let em know that you know they are there, for me driving a really slow subaru (94 Legacy Turbo) knowing the guy in front of me is aware of me there and that he'll give me a point is cool, not to mention I can learn something from following his line.
As most folks have said this isn't a competition so there is no over-riding need to pass in an unsafe manner. PERIOD, if you want to pass like that pony up and get a race liscence, then we'll see how much balls that Subaru owner has....
-mike
| Paisan | 01-26-2007 04:30 PM |
[QUOTE=MattSTi;16819740]Anyone with your mentality should be banned from HPDE's. They are not competitve events and there is no "winning" even if there is open passing allowed. If you want to win a race, get into wheel-to-wheel racing with a properly prepared car.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
Absolutely agreed!
-mike
-Matt[/QUOTE]
Absolutely agreed!
-mike
| re92 | 01-26-2007 04:45 PM |
FYI, eclip5e wasn't serious. He's done HPDE's and time trials, and is nowhere nearly as retarded as he pretends to be. :)
While I wouldn't do what the blue STi did, I have put a right wheel off at the entrance to No Name when I get an early point-by or when two or three cars ahead of me point me by. There are rumble strips on the inside that abruptly end, and it is not unusual to see people kick up dust there.
Raj
While I wouldn't do what the blue STi did, I have put a right wheel off at the entrance to No Name when I get an early point-by or when two or three cars ahead of me point me by. There are rumble strips on the inside that abruptly end, and it is not unusual to see people kick up dust there.
Raj
| Paisan | 01-26-2007 04:54 PM |
[QUOTE=MattSTi;16819740]Anyone with your mentality should be banned from HPDE's. They are not competitve events and there is no "winning" even if there is open passing allowed. If you want to win a race, get into wheel-to-wheel racing with a properly prepared car.
-Matt[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=re92;16824107]FYI, eclip5e wasn't serious. He's done HPDE's and time trials, and is nowhere nearly as retarded as he pretends to be. :)
While I wouldn't do what the blue STi did, I have put a right wheel off at the entrance to No Name when I get an early point-by or when two or three cars ahead of me point me by. There are rumble strips on the inside that abruptly end, and it is not unusual to see people kick up dust there.
Raj[/QUOTE]
Agreed, heck I've passed with 2-wheels well off with a pointby/nod from someone I regularlly HPDE with in a non-dangerous manner, but this just seems out of line. At least we aren't like other makes who feel they must defend the asshats who have the same cars as them. :)
-mike
-Matt[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=re92;16824107]FYI, eclip5e wasn't serious. He's done HPDE's and time trials, and is nowhere nearly as retarded as he pretends to be. :)
While I wouldn't do what the blue STi did, I have put a right wheel off at the entrance to No Name when I get an early point-by or when two or three cars ahead of me point me by. There are rumble strips on the inside that abruptly end, and it is not unusual to see people kick up dust there.
Raj[/QUOTE]
Agreed, heck I've passed with 2-wheels well off with a pointby/nod from someone I regularlly HPDE with in a non-dangerous manner, but this just seems out of line. At least we aren't like other makes who feel they must defend the asshats who have the same cars as them. :)
-mike
| sirfrankwilliams | 01-26-2007 04:54 PM |
[quote=re92;16824107]FYI, eclip5e wasn't serious and is nowhere nearly as retarded as he pretends to be. :)
[/quote]
phew. ;)
[/quote]
phew. ;)
| eclip5e | 01-29-2007 04:39 PM |
[QUOTE=re92;16824107]FYI, eclip5e wasn't serious. He's done HPDE's and time trials, and is nowhere nearly as retarded as he pretends to be. :)
[/QUOTE]
I haven't even gotten started yet.
:unce: :unce: :unce:
:banana: :disco: :banana: :disco: :banana: :disco:
[/QUOTE]
I haven't even gotten started yet.
:unce: :unce: :unce:
:banana: :disco: :banana: :disco: :banana: :disco:
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