| Scoobie Doogie | 02-13-2002 02:54 PM |
Auto-X setup for WRX/RS in DS/GS
Hey guys.
Here is some info that I collected from some VERY competitive drivers of WRX's for stock class setup of the WRX and RS. All of my info is for the WRX and translates well to the RS.
Struts: Koni's are good as well as KYB's. I am checking on Bilstein and some Leda info as well. It is recommended that the struts be valved to MAX rebound. Why? It keeps the car flatter and keeps all 4 wheels on the ground. Run full hard on all corners.
Swaybar: FRONT ONLY 24mm Blade adjustable Whiteline. This is what I have. The brst driver I know is running a 22mm and is waiting for a true 24mm front swaybar to keep the front end planted.
Camber: 1.5 deg front pull as much as you can in the rear(it isn't much)
Toe: Rear toe out set to 3/4 and front set to 0 for concrete
Toe all around set to 1/8 for tarmac
Tires: New Kumho's 225/50 30-35 lbs front and 60lbs rear for tarmac
Hoosiers 225/50 not sure on air pressure, best on concrete
Brakes: Carbotech is good as are EBC and many others. I am doing the Carbotechs. Some say they are too bitey for light cars, but we don't have to worry about that.
So far the only mods on my car are Falken Azenis street tires in 215/45/16 and a whiteline adj front swaybar set to 22mm. Go to the Tri-State forums to see the results. All of the top finishers in GS were on street tires. Some of the 5th place through 13th are on R compounds.:D
This is how my car will be set up for this year.
Let's watch the results through the year with all of us GS and DS competitors and share info to max our resources and help us all win. This way it will all come down to the driver.
Dave MacDougall
Here is some info that I collected from some VERY competitive drivers of WRX's for stock class setup of the WRX and RS. All of my info is for the WRX and translates well to the RS.
Struts: Koni's are good as well as KYB's. I am checking on Bilstein and some Leda info as well. It is recommended that the struts be valved to MAX rebound. Why? It keeps the car flatter and keeps all 4 wheels on the ground. Run full hard on all corners.
Swaybar: FRONT ONLY 24mm Blade adjustable Whiteline. This is what I have. The brst driver I know is running a 22mm and is waiting for a true 24mm front swaybar to keep the front end planted.
Camber: 1.5 deg front pull as much as you can in the rear(it isn't much)
Toe: Rear toe out set to 3/4 and front set to 0 for concrete
Toe all around set to 1/8 for tarmac
Tires: New Kumho's 225/50 30-35 lbs front and 60lbs rear for tarmac
Hoosiers 225/50 not sure on air pressure, best on concrete
Brakes: Carbotech is good as are EBC and many others. I am doing the Carbotechs. Some say they are too bitey for light cars, but we don't have to worry about that.
So far the only mods on my car are Falken Azenis street tires in 215/45/16 and a whiteline adj front swaybar set to 22mm. Go to the Tri-State forums to see the results. All of the top finishers in GS were on street tires. Some of the 5th place through 13th are on R compounds.:D
This is how my car will be set up for this year.
Let's watch the results through the year with all of us GS and DS competitors and share info to max our resources and help us all win. This way it will all come down to the driver.
Dave MacDougall
| Paisan | 02-13-2002 04:27 PM |
Sway bar will knock you out of stock class. It puts you into STS or STX (new class IIRC).
-mike
'88 XT6 AT
'91 XT6 MT
-mike
'88 XT6 AT
'91 XT6 MT
| Orion | 02-13-2002 04:40 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paisan [/i]
[B]Sway bar will knock you out of stock class. It puts you into STS or STX (new class IIRC).
-mike
'88 XT6 AT
'91 XT6 MT [/B][/QUOTE]
Not Front swaybar. It's legal. Rear sway is a no-no.
[B]Sway bar will knock you out of stock class. It puts you into STS or STX (new class IIRC).
-mike
'88 XT6 AT
'91 XT6 MT [/B][/QUOTE]
Not Front swaybar. It's legal. Rear sway is a no-no.
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-13-2002 06:03 PM |
Koni Strut Update
I just ordered @ [url]www.stranoparts.com[/url]
A set of new Koni's for the WRX, yes, for the WRX not the RS ones that are modified. These are valved for the WRX too. I was informed to that info by Arlen @ Stranoparts. They were less than 650 for all four.
Single adjustable.
Dave
A set of new Koni's for the WRX, yes, for the WRX not the RS ones that are modified. These are valved for the WRX too. I was informed to that info by Arlen @ Stranoparts. They were less than 650 for all four.
Single adjustable.
Dave
| Paisan | 02-13-2002 06:36 PM |
I stand corrected. I read through it quickly thought it was both front and rear sway bars. Rear is definitely a no-no though. Believe it or not the best modification I've found is:
1) Tires
2) Driving School
3) LOTS OF PRACTICE
I've been successful at beating/matching WRXs with my old XT6 AT in auto-x using a 100% stock setup with R-compound tires.
-mike
1) Tires
2) Driving School
3) LOTS OF PRACTICE
I've been successful at beating/matching WRXs with my old XT6 AT in auto-x using a 100% stock setup with R-compound tires.
-mike
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-13-2002 07:52 PM |
WRX's on R compounds or RE-92's?
If so. Don't expect that to happen this year. Muahuahahaha...:D :cool:
Dave
If so. Don't expect that to happen this year. Muahuahahaha...:D :cool:
Dave
| Paisan | 02-14-2002 12:32 AM |
WRXs were on everything from RE92s to Kumho 712s to S-02s to Dunlop 5000s. The WRXs with V700s were about 1.4-2 seconds faster than me. The WRXs were all MTs.
Luckily SCCA finally realized that a 145hp/156lbs torque XT6 with 14x5.5 rims and the same weight as a WRX shouldn't be in the same class :) The WRXs move up to D-Stock, RSs stay in G-stock, and XT6 moves down to H-stock. My hardest competion should be the 1st gen Integras. :)
-mike
Luckily SCCA finally realized that a 145hp/156lbs torque XT6 with 14x5.5 rims and the same weight as a WRX shouldn't be in the same class :) The WRXs move up to D-Stock, RSs stay in G-stock, and XT6 moves down to H-stock. My hardest competion should be the 1st gen Integras. :)
-mike
| WRXhauls | 02-14-2002 07:23 AM |
Which flavor Carbotechs are you using? Impressions?
Also, any thoughts on 205/45-16 to improve gearing, or 225/50F and 205/55R to reduce understeer?
Also, any thoughts on 205/45-16 to improve gearing, or 225/50F and 205/55R to reduce understeer?
| Paisan | 02-14-2002 07:53 AM |
I'd keep the tires the same size or else you run the risk of damaging your center diffy. For understeer/oversteer I'd play with the tire pressures.
-mike
-mike
| KC | 02-14-2002 11:58 AM |
Good and thoughtful post. I'll add a few lines in here....
[QUOTE]Struts: Koni's are good as well as KYB's.[/QUOTE] Still having a hard time with this one... KYB's specific to the WRX, are still not available yet.[QUOTE]Swaybar: FRONT ONLY 24mm Blade adjustable Whiteline. This is what I have. The brst driver I know is running a 22mm and is waiting for a true 24mm front swaybar to keep the front end planted. [/QUOTE] Also increases understeer... especially on the heavier WRX. Handling understeer with proper tire pressures and struts are a must.[QUOTE]Tires: New Kumho's 225/50 30-35 lbs front and 60lbs rear. [/QUOTE] Hoosier 225/50-16's also can be put on WRX Rims by a compitent tire installation technician. ;)[QUOTE]Keep in mind that if you are a driver that throws your car you will spin with this setup.[/QUOTE] With 3/4 toe, even if you 'don't' throw your car chances are you'd spin with your setup. (IMHO) Too stiff in front with taht much toe out in the rear, even with left foot braking's going to unsettle your car quite easily. I'd suggest setting toe 1/8 out and then over time, working your way out to where you find 'your' comfy zone.
Still, sounds like a nice set-up. ;)
--kC
[QUOTE]Struts: Koni's are good as well as KYB's.[/QUOTE] Still having a hard time with this one... KYB's specific to the WRX, are still not available yet.[QUOTE]Swaybar: FRONT ONLY 24mm Blade adjustable Whiteline. This is what I have. The brst driver I know is running a 22mm and is waiting for a true 24mm front swaybar to keep the front end planted. [/QUOTE] Also increases understeer... especially on the heavier WRX. Handling understeer with proper tire pressures and struts are a must.[QUOTE]Tires: New Kumho's 225/50 30-35 lbs front and 60lbs rear. [/QUOTE] Hoosier 225/50-16's also can be put on WRX Rims by a compitent tire installation technician. ;)[QUOTE]Keep in mind that if you are a driver that throws your car you will spin with this setup.[/QUOTE] With 3/4 toe, even if you 'don't' throw your car chances are you'd spin with your setup. (IMHO) Too stiff in front with taht much toe out in the rear, even with left foot braking's going to unsettle your car quite easily. I'd suggest setting toe 1/8 out and then over time, working your way out to where you find 'your' comfy zone.
Still, sounds like a nice set-up. ;)
--kC
| Corey | 02-14-2002 01:02 PM |
Dave,
Hope you remember me, we talked at the Auto-X on Saturday. I just have one comment to make on your selection list. Go with the Hoosiers in 225/50/16. If I had a WRX with those huge fender well's that's what I would be running. Oh yea, I forgot to ask, how did you like the gear ratio with those Azenis? I would bet that should keep from getting to much lag out of the slow corners.
Corey
Hope you remember me, we talked at the Auto-X on Saturday. I just have one comment to make on your selection list. Go with the Hoosiers in 225/50/16. If I had a WRX with those huge fender well's that's what I would be running. Oh yea, I forgot to ask, how did you like the gear ratio with those Azenis? I would bet that should keep from getting to much lag out of the slow corners.
Corey
| trojan9x | 02-14-2002 02:15 PM |
pressures will help you the most with over/understeer
generally i run 3 psi more in the front then the rear.
helps drastically, helped corey too get 3rd in SM on his RE92's
generally i run 3 psi more in the front then the rear.
helps drastically, helped corey too get 3rd in SM on his RE92's
| trhoppe | 02-14-2002 04:11 PM |
Konis are good, you dont wan't them full stiff in the front. Trust me. 3/4 toe out is too much. Run 1/8th all around. The biggest sway bar you can get on the front the better. 60 psi is too much for the rear tires, 40 front, 50 rear. Oh yea, K&N filter and exhaust as well.
-Tom Hoppe
-Tom Hoppe
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-14-2002 08:13 PM |
Thanks for the input guys!
Tom,
The info I got was from Larry Fine. I am still open to suggestions, such as you added, from any competent Auto-X'er. Let's try the different setups and see what we all can put together to make our cars beat the ITR's. Keep this one going.
Dave
The info I got was from Larry Fine. I am still open to suggestions, such as you added, from any competent Auto-X'er. Let's try the different setups and see what we all can put together to make our cars beat the ITR's. Keep this one going.
Dave
| trhoppe | 02-14-2002 08:27 PM |
I figured that.
I think larry's setup is way extreme, but he is a good driver. Every driver's setup is going to be different. I like mine one way he likes his another way. The way either of our cars are stup are plenty to take out the typeRs provided we drive well. Larry did not run hoosiers for some unknown reason last year and this year at the first autox where I raced against him, he was on kumhos as well. I think Larry's setup might be better suited to concrete surfaces and my setup suited better to a slippier surface, we will find out on the 24th. Kinda sucks that larry won't be at ft. myers for the tour, but I will have a decent chance at taking that IMHO w/o him there. I am not really worried about the Type Rs at that venue.
At VMP his car was oversteering while mine was neutral. What I am worried about is that the concrete surfaces will make his setup perfect, while creating understeer in my car.
I think larry's setup is way extreme, but he is a good driver. Every driver's setup is going to be different. I like mine one way he likes his another way. The way either of our cars are stup are plenty to take out the typeRs provided we drive well. Larry did not run hoosiers for some unknown reason last year and this year at the first autox where I raced against him, he was on kumhos as well. I think Larry's setup might be better suited to concrete surfaces and my setup suited better to a slippier surface, we will find out on the 24th. Kinda sucks that larry won't be at ft. myers for the tour, but I will have a decent chance at taking that IMHO w/o him there. I am not really worried about the Type Rs at that venue.
At VMP his car was oversteering while mine was neutral. What I am worried about is that the concrete surfaces will make his setup perfect, while creating understeer in my car.
| Xio | 02-14-2002 08:32 PM |
Tire pressures...
Tire pressure plays a huge role IMHO, and your setup should be course-dependent.
For fast, open courses with big sweepers and slaloms I run about 4 psi more front than rear.
For tight courses with lots of 180-degree hairpins where you need to rotate the car quickly I reduce rear pressure till it is 6-10 psi less than front.
The general idea is that I want less oversteer for slaloms so I can keep the car tight to the cones and in control, and more oversteer for those courses where hard 180's are the key to a fast time.
Note:
Stock suspension
-1.0 degrees camber front <-all the guy at the dealer could get :mad:
.15 degrees toe out front
3.6 degrees front castor
-1.3 degrees camber rear, nonadjustable :(
.10 degrees toe out rear
For fast, open courses with big sweepers and slaloms I run about 4 psi more front than rear.
For tight courses with lots of 180-degree hairpins where you need to rotate the car quickly I reduce rear pressure till it is 6-10 psi less than front.
The general idea is that I want less oversteer for slaloms so I can keep the car tight to the cones and in control, and more oversteer for those courses where hard 180's are the key to a fast time.
Note:
Stock suspension
-1.0 degrees camber front <-all the guy at the dealer could get :mad:
.15 degrees toe out front
3.6 degrees front castor
-1.3 degrees camber rear, nonadjustable :(
.10 degrees toe out rear
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-14-2002 09:19 PM |
Front toe Q?
How do your cars feel with the front toe out? I know that 90% of my racing will be on tarmac and not on concrete. I am taking notes as to all of these setups and will try them on a test and tune weekend.
Dave
Dave
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-14-2002 09:34 PM |
CArbotechs
WRXhauls,
I don't have the Carbotechs yet. I am getting the Panthers though. I have heard from other racers that they are a bit bitey for light cars...not that we have to worry about that...:rolleyes:
If you are trying something different please let me know what your results are. We need to build a knowledge base to take out the ITR's this year. They have had plenty of wheel time and setup time. We are going to need to compress that so we can place one of our cars in the top 3 spots at Nats this year.
Dave
I don't have the Carbotechs yet. I am getting the Panthers though. I have heard from other racers that they are a bit bitey for light cars...not that we have to worry about that...:rolleyes:
If you are trying something different please let me know what your results are. We need to build a knowledge base to take out the ITR's this year. They have had plenty of wheel time and setup time. We are going to need to compress that so we can place one of our cars in the top 3 spots at Nats this year.
Dave
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-14-2002 09:38 PM |
Azeinis
Corey,
I loved the Azenis setup. I was running 215/45/16's. The car had a lot more in it too. I was not even close to sliding at all around any part of the course. So, I liked the gearing. It is fine as long as all of the tires are the same outer diameter.
Dave
I loved the Azenis setup. I was running 215/45/16's. The car had a lot more in it too. I was not even close to sliding at all around any part of the course. So, I liked the gearing. It is fine as long as all of the tires are the same outer diameter.
Dave
| Xio | 02-14-2002 11:27 PM |
Front toe out helps initial turn-in, rear toe-out helps the car rotate.
Front toe out may make the car feel darty to an average driver on the highway, but I don't think you care about that. ;)
Front toe out may make the car feel darty to an average driver on the highway, but I don't think you care about that. ;)
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-15-2002 01:05 AM |
Thanks Xio
Dave
Dave
| AWMIII | 02-15-2002 01:01 PM |
I co-drove Dave's car at that event, and have to say that it felt really good. My car is in the process of going to stx and was not ready to run. I love the way that the bigger swaybar made the front feel very planted. I am sure that it will only get better because Dave does so much research before starting any mods. BTW, I won STX at that same event. We both ran faster than a fairly serious national competitor in a stock type-r, although some of this was due to the street tires, and the long straight in the middle of the course. I did slide the car on the Falkens and it was interesting. The break away was very abrupt, but the amount of stick was great. Since the event, I have bought myself a set for STX. 215-45-16 on 16x7.5 wheels. I would not have believed that the front sway bar would make such a big difference. Was it a bit loose? I thought about some of the sounds that I heard and I can not attribute all of them to the mud flaps. Once again, thank you for letting me run your car, and I will gladly return the favor. I hope to see you at the next Philly event.
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-15-2002 01:14 PM |
Swaybar
Bill,
I checked it out this morning and it is not loose. The nylon bushing was sqwaking a bit from some of the grease seeping out. You are right though, in a hard turn the front flaps do scrape a bit. I saw the edge is worn a bit.
Dave
I checked it out this morning and it is not loose. The nylon bushing was sqwaking a bit from some of the grease seeping out. You are right though, in a hard turn the front flaps do scrape a bit. I saw the edge is worn a bit.
Dave
| Tony | 02-15-2002 01:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AWMIII [/i]
[B]...a fairly serious national competitor in a stock type-r...[/B][/QUOTE]
Please tell me you aren't refering to Pozner.
Tony
[B]...a fairly serious national competitor in a stock type-r...[/B][/QUOTE]
Please tell me you aren't refering to Pozner.
Tony
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-15-2002 03:05 PM |
Be nice Tony.....yes that is who Bill is referring too. When we can beat Matt Dudek and Geoff Macrae then I'll be super impressed. At least for me anyway. Alan was/is a goal for me personally as he is the fastest GS class driver in central PA. That will change in 2002 season though.
Dave:D
Dave:D
| AWMIII | 02-15-2002 05:48 PM |
Tony
He did get a trophy in Topeka. He may not be a serious person in general, but he is serious about autox.
| Tony | 02-15-2002 06:36 PM |
Sorry, just that Bill made Pozner sound like a National level hot shoe or something and I forgot my little ;) face.
Tony
Tony
| z3coupe | 02-19-2002 04:28 AM |
Now I am a bit confused. I am running in STX, and I got the MRT rear swaybar only, but left the front one stock (just added the MRT bushings on both bars) because I was led to believe that the bigger front bar would add more understeer. Now some of you are saying it does help?
| KC | 02-19-2002 07:55 AM |
In the stock class, where front sway bar and just struts are your only ways to do some suspension tuning, it's shown that the front sway bar does reduce a little of the body roll inthe front and provides a bit better turn-in and bite.
That said, it will still provide the undesired understeer for those with a heavy foot on steady-state cornering.
Once you start adding coilovers and a rear sway bar to the front bar, the benefit is reduced body roll (still) and more turn in with the REDUCTION of understeer due to proper suspension tuning to get the car to rotate during steady state cornering. :D
--kC
That said, it will still provide the undesired understeer for those with a heavy foot on steady-state cornering.
Once you start adding coilovers and a rear sway bar to the front bar, the benefit is reduced body roll (still) and more turn in with the REDUCTION of understeer due to proper suspension tuning to get the car to rotate during steady state cornering. :D
--kC
| AWMIII | 02-19-2002 02:05 PM |
I figured someone would notice this and start preaching on the undesirablity of understeer. Remember unless you are pushing too hard, you will not understeer. I pushed dave's car too hard once, and it understeered dramatically. The understeer was not the problem, the idiot who pushed too hard was the problem. If you can constantly drive at 10/10ths of your available grip, it would not matter if your car tended to push or get loose (NASCAR jargon for those keeping score). In theory, understeer only becomes an issue when you overdrive your car, which almost all of us do. That said, his car had signifigantly less body roll than mine did on its stock springs. Did it stick better? It was hard to tell because I am used to R tires and we were running Azenis. It did turn in nice and quick and was more predictable than my car was. When will the debate start about higher tire pressures in the rear versus lower pressures in the rear?
| trhoppe | 02-19-2002 02:08 PM |
[QUOTE]When will the debate start about higher tire pressures in the rear versus lower pressures in the rear?[/QUOTE]
Haha...I was going to chime in on that, but didnt want to start a war. I'm going to say that its very dependent on what driving you do. For street driving when youre not pushing 10/10ths I think the lower rear pressure might work because you get more tire patch on the road in the rear. On autox, if you lower rear pressures you will roll the tires over and need to go way high to reduce contact patch to reduce understeer. I guess that makes sense........
Haha...I was going to chime in on that, but didnt want to start a war. I'm going to say that its very dependent on what driving you do. For street driving when youre not pushing 10/10ths I think the lower rear pressure might work because you get more tire patch on the road in the rear. On autox, if you lower rear pressures you will roll the tires over and need to go way high to reduce contact patch to reduce understeer. I guess that makes sense........
| z3coupe | 02-19-2002 05:39 PM |
So what would be a good starting point for 225/45/17 Azenis on 17X7 Superleggera wheels with my suspension
Cusco Zero2 GDA (fr 1, rr now at 4 - 5 is full firm)
Whiteline 22mm rear bar (now set to stiffest setting)
Whiteline fr/rr links
STi engine/trans mounts
SS brake lines
EBC Greens
MRT POD filter
Gold OZ Superleggera 17X7 48mm
Falken Azenis RS 225/45/17
4" Suppertrapp
alignment - fr -2.5 with 0 toe, rr -1.5 0 toe
Cusco Zero2 GDA (fr 1, rr now at 4 - 5 is full firm)
Whiteline 22mm rear bar (now set to stiffest setting)
Whiteline fr/rr links
STi engine/trans mounts
SS brake lines
EBC Greens
MRT POD filter
Gold OZ Superleggera 17X7 48mm
Falken Azenis RS 225/45/17
4" Suppertrapp
alignment - fr -2.5 with 0 toe, rr -1.5 0 toe
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-19-2002 07:45 PM |
Z3,
What is your car doing or not doing in turns? How does it feel in slaloms? How are your times compared to the GS drivers in WRX's and ITR's? I am asking because how you answer will guide the answer. Mr. Hoppe should know more about this than I also.
Dave
What is your car doing or not doing in turns? How does it feel in slaloms? How are your times compared to the GS drivers in WRX's and ITR's? I am asking because how you answer will guide the answer. Mr. Hoppe should know more about this than I also.
Dave
| subrew2 | 02-19-2002 07:47 PM |
If your having troubles understeering off tighter corners, or even medium/long sweepers, try a bit of rear toe-out. Something like 1/8-inch or even as extreme as 1/2-inch. start with small increments though.
you may need to adjust rear tire pressures if the car gets loose on transitions.
Chris Hartman
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
you may need to adjust rear tire pressures if the car gets loose on transitions.
Chris Hartman
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
| Scoobie Doogie | 02-20-2002 01:29 AM |
Cool web-site Chris!
Dave
Dave
| z3coupe | 02-20-2002 03:41 AM |
Ok, the first event which was in the rain I had 40psi fr and rr. The car felt pretty neutral then, but it WAS in the rain and was slipery so I was being caustious as it was also the first time racing it, and had just got the car completed the night before. Karl had a 58.2 with it in the dry, I had a 58.7 in the rain, and the next closest car was an E30 //M3 with a 62. We adjusted the front Cuscos to 1 fr, 3 rr and the swaybar was in the mid hole.
Two weeks ago at SD, as there was no STX class there, I was put in their local IS2 class with all Miatas! So I guess I drove with that cloud over my head and was pushing it too hard. It was a dry day, but SD is always unlucky for me, as well as its always a wee bit loose (grit). I was using about 44fr and 40 rr, same suspension setting as above.
This past Sunday, I used 44 fr and 40 rr, then dropped to 38 rr, and had the rear shocks set to 4 and the rear bar to full firm. On my first run, expecting still understeer, I was surprised with a very loose back end, and even spun out coming around a turn. And the rest of the day I was stuggling with the back end going every which way. Now Koji, from Hiro's Auto Repair who did the work for me was also there racing a CSP Miata. When I talked with him today about maybe backing off one of the two adjustments we had made, he said that when we were running, it was not raining anymore, but only parts of the track were dry, the rest was still wet (with even some standing water). And yet the parts that were dry, were very gritty. So there wasn't really that much grip anywhere on the course. So maybe I should try the car still the same at the next event and pray for it to be dry before I do any more adjustments. But it was quite hard trying to go fast through any of the course with such a lively backend. It kinda lowered my confidence in the car through the turns and slaloms, thus making me go slower.
But I am also asking what would/should I set the pressures at for a starting point? I have been hearing now that I should put more in the rear than the front?
I had earlier been led to believe that I should only add the rear swaybar so as to eliminate the understeer of the REX. But now I am being told that I SHOULD add a larger 22mm front bar for better lean control and turn-in. Is that true then, but what about the understeer? And just curious, when you keep adding items (or stiffening them up) to induce one end to loose traction to get closer to the other ends traction, where is the line where you just end up making the entier car loose too much traction totally?
Lastly, if I do have to reset the rear, which would be best? Set the shock back to 3 and leave the bar to full firm, or leave the shocks at 4 and set teh rear bar to the middle hole?
Thanks fo the help guys. Not trying to be a bother - I just want to win, and hope to get to the Nationls for once in my life! And this is the first time since I started in 1974 that I feel that I might have the car, and the setup, to do it with.
Two weeks ago at SD, as there was no STX class there, I was put in their local IS2 class with all Miatas! So I guess I drove with that cloud over my head and was pushing it too hard. It was a dry day, but SD is always unlucky for me, as well as its always a wee bit loose (grit). I was using about 44fr and 40 rr, same suspension setting as above.
This past Sunday, I used 44 fr and 40 rr, then dropped to 38 rr, and had the rear shocks set to 4 and the rear bar to full firm. On my first run, expecting still understeer, I was surprised with a very loose back end, and even spun out coming around a turn. And the rest of the day I was stuggling with the back end going every which way. Now Koji, from Hiro's Auto Repair who did the work for me was also there racing a CSP Miata. When I talked with him today about maybe backing off one of the two adjustments we had made, he said that when we were running, it was not raining anymore, but only parts of the track were dry, the rest was still wet (with even some standing water). And yet the parts that were dry, were very gritty. So there wasn't really that much grip anywhere on the course. So maybe I should try the car still the same at the next event and pray for it to be dry before I do any more adjustments. But it was quite hard trying to go fast through any of the course with such a lively backend. It kinda lowered my confidence in the car through the turns and slaloms, thus making me go slower.
But I am also asking what would/should I set the pressures at for a starting point? I have been hearing now that I should put more in the rear than the front?
I had earlier been led to believe that I should only add the rear swaybar so as to eliminate the understeer of the REX. But now I am being told that I SHOULD add a larger 22mm front bar for better lean control and turn-in. Is that true then, but what about the understeer? And just curious, when you keep adding items (or stiffening them up) to induce one end to loose traction to get closer to the other ends traction, where is the line where you just end up making the entier car loose too much traction totally?
Lastly, if I do have to reset the rear, which would be best? Set the shock back to 3 and leave the bar to full firm, or leave the shocks at 4 and set teh rear bar to the middle hole?
Thanks fo the help guys. Not trying to be a bother - I just want to win, and hope to get to the Nationls for once in my life! And this is the first time since I started in 1974 that I feel that I might have the car, and the setup, to do it with.
| AWMIII | 02-20-2002 10:35 AM |
What are your spring rates?
| z3coupe | 02-20-2002 01:47 PM |
I am not 100% sure, cause they came with the shocks as a complete unit. I got them from Ryan at Irvine Subaru - I belive he told me the fronts were 7k and the rears were 6k (or is that KG?).
Oh, and as for lowering the car, its about 1.5 -2" all the way around. But the nice thing about the Cusco Zero2 is that instead of just compressing the spring to lower, the strut can also be adjusted lower in its bracket - so that you can retain travel.
Oh, and as for lowering the car, its about 1.5 -2" all the way around. But the nice thing about the Cusco Zero2 is that instead of just compressing the spring to lower, the strut can also be adjusted lower in its bracket - so that you can retain travel.
| AWMIII | 02-20-2002 06:41 PM |
Knowing your spring rates is important for making any guesses as to what alignment and tire settings will work. For instance, if your rears are relatively high, rear sway bar adjustments will not make dramatic changes to the balance of the car. In my understanding, a no-compromise race car does not need any sway bars because the spring rates are so high. All of the tire pressure and alignment settings that people are throwing around are very dependant on car set up. If the balance between the front and rear spring rates is optimal, you would be able to run all 4 tires at the same pressure. That pressure would be just enough to give you nice turn in with out rolling over, but no more(in theory). The reason that Larry Fine has such a wacky setup is that he is working with in the stock class rules. On a stock class car almost every adjustment is a compromise. For instance, the wrx would autox much faster if it had more negative camber in the front. In a stockk class all that can be done is to adjust it to full negative. In my car this was like -1.1 or so. I am sure he would like to run less than the 50-60psi in his rears that I have heard about, but because he can not change anything else in the rear, he is left running staggered tire sizes with a wacky pressure in the rear. If you have spent the money for a first class set of coilovers, and you want to really compete, experiment with spring rates. If you have progressive springs, the sway bar might make a lot of difference. I am at the beginning of my own springrate experiment, and right now I am too stiff for my regular street driving. 350-300 with helpers.
Tony- Feel free to chime in and make me sound like the ass that I am. ;)
Tony- Feel free to chime in and make me sound like the ass that I am. ;)
| Tony | 02-20-2002 07:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AWMIII [/i]
[B]Tony- Feel free to chime in and make me sound like the ass that I am. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
You do that all by yourself ;)
Most of everything you said seems about right other than a few minor points. Most race cars don't run sway bars because they don't need to. A correctly speced set of springs (with shocks to match) will not need sway bars to make the car handle right. Sway bars are sort of a band-aid. Street cars come with them because you can get away with softer springs for ride comfort but limit body lean. At the spring rates race cars run you'd need a huge sway bar to do anything and then you are taking away from the independent nature of your suspension. If I were you I'd just leave the stock bars in place or maybe add an adjustable rear bar (just for some minor tuning), most of your tuning will be with shock settings, alignment and tire pressures.
FYI your spring rates are 7 and 6 kg/mm (kilograms per millimeter). That translates to 391/335 lb/in front/rear.
Tony
[B]Tony- Feel free to chime in and make me sound like the ass that I am. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
You do that all by yourself ;)
Most of everything you said seems about right other than a few minor points. Most race cars don't run sway bars because they don't need to. A correctly speced set of springs (with shocks to match) will not need sway bars to make the car handle right. Sway bars are sort of a band-aid. Street cars come with them because you can get away with softer springs for ride comfort but limit body lean. At the spring rates race cars run you'd need a huge sway bar to do anything and then you are taking away from the independent nature of your suspension. If I were you I'd just leave the stock bars in place or maybe add an adjustable rear bar (just for some minor tuning), most of your tuning will be with shock settings, alignment and tire pressures.
FYI your spring rates are 7 and 6 kg/mm (kilograms per millimeter). That translates to 391/335 lb/in front/rear.
Tony
| AWMIII | 02-20-2002 10:12 PM |
Tony-
Thats what I meant, but was not able to put it as clearly as you. But my advice on alignment and tire pressures stands. Don't look for advice on settings from people with different suspensions and or wheel sizes. But if I were you, I'd try 38psi all the way around with max negative camber and zero toe front and rear and adjust from there.:lol:
Thats what I meant, but was not able to put it as clearly as you. But my advice on alignment and tire pressures stands. Don't look for advice on settings from people with different suspensions and or wheel sizes. But if I were you, I'd try 38psi all the way around with max negative camber and zero toe front and rear and adjust from there.:lol:
| Scoobie Doogie | 04-03-2002 10:33 PM |
BUMP
| Dussander | 04-04-2002 10:53 AM |
Funny. I searched for and read this thread yesterday.
How are your mods going for you Scoobie Doggie?
Tom Hoppe's seem to be working well for him.
I'm curious to what Whiteline front sway everyone is running. Did you find any appropriate front drop links or new bushings to go with it? I'm looking for part numbers.
How are your mods going for you Scoobie Doggie?
Tom Hoppe's seem to be working well for him.
I'm curious to what Whiteline front sway everyone is running. Did you find any appropriate front drop links or new bushings to go with it? I'm looking for part numbers.
| trhoppe | 04-04-2002 01:06 PM |
Yea I can't complain about my setup :devil: :devil:
I have the BSF33XZ for the front set at 24mm.
Also they don't make endlinks for the front of the sedan because they are already "heavy duty". The wagon front endlinks are sheit and the upgrade is to endlinks that are just like the ones on the sedan.
I have the BSF33XZ for the front set at 24mm.
Also they don't make endlinks for the front of the sedan because they are already "heavy duty". The wagon front endlinks are sheit and the upgrade is to endlinks that are just like the ones on the sedan.
| ChrisW | 04-04-2002 01:39 PM |
Re: Auto-X setup for WRX/RS in DS/GS
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scoobie Doogie [/i]
[B]Hey guys.
Swaybar: FRONT ONLY 24mm Blade adjustable Whiteline. This is what I have. The brst driver I know is running a 22mm and is waiting for a true 24mm front swaybar to keep the front end planted.
[/quote]
you may have problems with understeer with such a heavy front bar. When I was running a stock suspension, I found the stock swaybars adequate for compitition use. IMHO, your biggest performance gains will be from your choice of alignment.
I run ESP and depending on my performace this weekend, I may go back to a stock front bar. I have the whiteline 22mm front and 22-24 adjustable in back.
[quote]
Camber: 1.5 deg front pull as much as you can in the rear(it isn't much)
Toe: Rear toe out set to 3/4 and front set to 0 for concrete
Toe all around set to 1/8 for tarmac
[/quote]
I have heard that you can loosen the bolts on the front suspension, and give it a good shove and get about -1.5 camber to match the rear. I never tried it personally.
[quote]
Tires: New Kumho's 225/50 30-35 lbs front and 60lbs rear for tarmac
Hoosiers 225/50 not sure on air pressure, best on concrete
[/B][/QUOTE]
I would not go over 45psi in the rear on the kumos. There is another thread in the suspension forum that tells why. (I wish I could find it.:mad: )
[B]Hey guys.
Swaybar: FRONT ONLY 24mm Blade adjustable Whiteline. This is what I have. The brst driver I know is running a 22mm and is waiting for a true 24mm front swaybar to keep the front end planted.
[/quote]
you may have problems with understeer with such a heavy front bar. When I was running a stock suspension, I found the stock swaybars adequate for compitition use. IMHO, your biggest performance gains will be from your choice of alignment.
I run ESP and depending on my performace this weekend, I may go back to a stock front bar. I have the whiteline 22mm front and 22-24 adjustable in back.
[quote]
Camber: 1.5 deg front pull as much as you can in the rear(it isn't much)
Toe: Rear toe out set to 3/4 and front set to 0 for concrete
Toe all around set to 1/8 for tarmac
[/quote]
I have heard that you can loosen the bolts on the front suspension, and give it a good shove and get about -1.5 camber to match the rear. I never tried it personally.
[quote]
Tires: New Kumho's 225/50 30-35 lbs front and 60lbs rear for tarmac
Hoosiers 225/50 not sure on air pressure, best on concrete
[/B][/QUOTE]
I would not go over 45psi in the rear on the kumos. There is another thread in the suspension forum that tells why. (I wish I could find it.:mad: )
| trhoppe | 04-04-2002 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE]I would not go over 45psi in the rear on the kumos.[/QUOTE] You can on the V700s, not on the street tires though.
[QUOTE]I have heard that you can loosen the bolts on the front suspension, and give it a good shove and get about -1.5 camber to match the rear. I never tried it personally. [/QUOTE] How can you this this and this [QUOTE]your biggest performance gains will be from your choice of alignment. [/QUOTE] in the same post?
hmmmmm so you havent tried the "biggest performance gain" but yet your saying that you will be taking out the 22mm front sway?
[QUOTE]I have heard that you can loosen the bolts on the front suspension, and give it a good shove and get about -1.5 camber to match the rear. I never tried it personally. [/QUOTE] How can you this this and this [QUOTE]your biggest performance gains will be from your choice of alignment. [/QUOTE] in the same post?
hmmmmm so you havent tried the "biggest performance gain" but yet your saying that you will be taking out the 22mm front sway?
| Dussander | 04-05-2002 02:23 PM |
bump so Scoobie Doogie can respond.
| Scoobie Doogie | 04-10-2002 12:04 PM |
Dussander,
I am still awaiting my Koni strut inserts. (Koni is being S-L-O-W) I just go my Kumho V700's last week. I am getting the suspension aligned next week before our Evolution School on April 27 and 28th. So far this year I have been withing 1.5 seconds of many ITR's on my street tires when they were on R compounds. I figure with the Evolution school, Koni's, R compounds and alignment I should be very competitive. I will post impressions of the setup once I get started next week.
Dave
I am still awaiting my Koni strut inserts. (Koni is being S-L-O-W) I just go my Kumho V700's last week. I am getting the suspension aligned next week before our Evolution School on April 27 and 28th. So far this year I have been withing 1.5 seconds of many ITR's on my street tires when they were on R compounds. I figure with the Evolution school, Koni's, R compounds and alignment I should be very competitive. I will post impressions of the setup once I get started next week.
Dave
| Scoobie Doogie | 04-10-2002 09:32 PM |
Good news on the new Koni inserts. They are on a pallet that arrived today at Koni!!! Soon as they process they'll be on the way to their new home in my car...........:D
Dave
Dave
| Shankster | 06-06-2002 07:01 PM |
found a Koni group buy
I found a Koni group buy on groupbuycenter.com yesterday. I think it was $553 + $18 shipping for inserts for the WRX.
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