| makofoto | 01-12-2004 04:03 PM |
AutoX'ing in the Wet ... tips ...
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In one of the other recent threads here, there was talk of wet tire pressure ... and that countrary to popular opinion ... it's actually better to have MORE tire pressure in the wet ... in order to in some cases open up the tread ... but mainly to actually get a smaller tire contact area ... so that more pressure is applied to a smaller area ... the comparison being that the rally snow tires are very thin ... yet extremely fast and grippy (studs?). One of the R competition tire "care" pages on TireRack officially (from the manufacturer) said to increase tire pressure - and gave figures.
Thinking in this vain ... would it be good to increase weight somewhat (WRX) ... by just filling up the gas tank, keeping the spare tire ... letting your buddy ride along - in order to help get more heat into the tire and increase pressure on the contact area?
I'm just using Toyo T1's in 215/45/17. 17 X 7.5 SSRs, w/ soft Tein Wagon Coil overs
Thinking in this vain ... would it be good to increase weight somewhat (WRX) ... by just filling up the gas tank, keeping the spare tire ... letting your buddy ride along - in order to help get more heat into the tire and increase pressure on the contact area?
I'm just using Toyo T1's in 215/45/17. 17 X 7.5 SSRs, w/ soft Tein Wagon Coil overs
| Watkinsm3 | 01-12-2004 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B]
Thinking in this vain ... would it be good to increase weight somewhat (WRX) ... by just filling up the gas tank, keeping the spare tire ... letting your buddy ride along - in order to help get more heat into the tire and increase pressure on the contact area?[/B][/QUOTE]
I've heard alot of people mention this... Increase weight so you have more pressure on the tires. The problem I see with this you've just increased the amount of mass you have to "change the direction of" during a turn. Basicly it becomes a comparision of additional grip from an extra say... 100lbs and trying to change the direction of said 100lbs.
Do you get enough additional grip from the weight to allow you to change the direction of the car and its additional weight more efficiently? I say no...
If it doesn't work in the dry where you have a higher coefficient of friction then it won't work with a smaller coefficient of friction.
-Matt Watkins
[B]
Thinking in this vain ... would it be good to increase weight somewhat (WRX) ... by just filling up the gas tank, keeping the spare tire ... letting your buddy ride along - in order to help get more heat into the tire and increase pressure on the contact area?[/B][/QUOTE]
I've heard alot of people mention this... Increase weight so you have more pressure on the tires. The problem I see with this you've just increased the amount of mass you have to "change the direction of" during a turn. Basicly it becomes a comparision of additional grip from an extra say... 100lbs and trying to change the direction of said 100lbs.
Do you get enough additional grip from the weight to allow you to change the direction of the car and its additional weight more efficiently? I say no...
If it doesn't work in the dry where you have a higher coefficient of friction then it won't work with a smaller coefficient of friction.
-Matt Watkins
| bcblues | 01-12-2004 07:33 PM |
I agree. Fiddle with the pressures a bit, but I would never add weight. The only benefit that I could even remotely see is if you add some strategically placed weight near the rear bumper to help with the weight distribution and help with handling just a bit in the slippery. Be sure your DRIVE SMOOTH! That is the key.
| dadswrx | 01-12-2004 07:42 PM |
Re: AutoX'ing in the Wet ... tips ...
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Thinking in this vain ... would it be good to increase weight somewhat (WRX) ... by just filling up the gas tank, keeping the spare tire ... letting your buddy ride along - in order to help get more heat into the tire and increase pressure on the contact area? [/B][/QUOTE]
Additional weight is never a good thing in auto-x, or (most) any other motorsport. Even in "real" racing most folks bring the cars weight down as low as possible and then add ballast (at handling appropriate locations) to bring the weight up to meet the minimums.
All of my experience in auto-x has been with R-compounds. If there is standing water, you are in trouble (w/R-compounds) regardless of the tire pressure. There just isn't enough tread depth to push the water out compared to a typical high performance street tire.
If the ground is just wet, R-compounds are the way to go, but I've always used less tire pressure, especially in the rear. Reducing the rear pressure will make the rear less tail happy based on my driving style. However, most of it will boil down to your cars particular setup AND your particular driving style. With enough practice, you will find the optimal setting for all these variables.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
[B]Thinking in this vain ... would it be good to increase weight somewhat (WRX) ... by just filling up the gas tank, keeping the spare tire ... letting your buddy ride along - in order to help get more heat into the tire and increase pressure on the contact area? [/B][/QUOTE]
Additional weight is never a good thing in auto-x, or (most) any other motorsport. Even in "real" racing most folks bring the cars weight down as low as possible and then add ballast (at handling appropriate locations) to bring the weight up to meet the minimums.
All of my experience in auto-x has been with R-compounds. If there is standing water, you are in trouble (w/R-compounds) regardless of the tire pressure. There just isn't enough tread depth to push the water out compared to a typical high performance street tire.
If the ground is just wet, R-compounds are the way to go, but I've always used less tire pressure, especially in the rear. Reducing the rear pressure will make the rear less tail happy based on my driving style. However, most of it will boil down to your cars particular setup AND your particular driving style. With enough practice, you will find the optimal setting for all these variables.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
| bcblues | 01-12-2004 10:55 PM |
AX IS "real racing". :mad: Maybe not wheel to wheel, but "real" none-the-less.
| WRXedUSA | 01-12-2004 11:43 PM |
I race on 1/4 tank, no spare, back seat out, jack out, trunk apoulstry out and no water in my wiper res, floormats out.
I DO, get a codriver less than 130 lbs. (usually a woman) and set her in the passenger seat, give her a helmet, and slide the seat back and reclined all the way.
The balance makes the car easier to drive.
I dunno, I drive faster with a passenger.
FTD, until the turbo miata steps up!!
I told you about the tire pressures!!
I DO, get a codriver less than 130 lbs. (usually a woman) and set her in the passenger seat, give her a helmet, and slide the seat back and reclined all the way.
The balance makes the car easier to drive.
I dunno, I drive faster with a passenger.
FTD, until the turbo miata steps up!!
I told you about the tire pressures!!
| mywrx2002 | 01-13-2004 12:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXedUSA [/i]
[B]I race on 1/4 tank, no spare, back seat out, jack out, trunk apoulstry out and no water in my wiper res, floormats out.
I DO, get a codriver less than 130 lbs. (usually a woman) and set her in the passenger seat, give her a helmet, and slide the seat back and reclined all the way.
The balance makes the car easier to drive.
I dunno, I drive faster with a passenger.
FTD, until the turbo miata steps up!!
I told you about the tire pressures!! [/B][/QUOTE]
How in the world are they allowing you to compete in SMII and not SM like they should ??? Thre should be a protest every time you sign up in SM II. Plus I'd hope you walk all over a turbo miata.
[B]I race on 1/4 tank, no spare, back seat out, jack out, trunk apoulstry out and no water in my wiper res, floormats out.
I DO, get a codriver less than 130 lbs. (usually a woman) and set her in the passenger seat, give her a helmet, and slide the seat back and reclined all the way.
The balance makes the car easier to drive.
I dunno, I drive faster with a passenger.
FTD, until the turbo miata steps up!!
I told you about the tire pressures!! [/B][/QUOTE]
How in the world are they allowing you to compete in SMII and not SM like they should ??? Thre should be a protest every time you sign up in SM II. Plus I'd hope you walk all over a turbo miata.
| dadswrx | 01-13-2004 05:23 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bcblues [/i]
[B]AX IS "real racing". :mad: Maybe not wheel to wheel, but "real" none-the-less. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry! I forgot to put in the quotes around "real." I've been autocrossing for about 11 years now and know this fact first hand... Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
[B]AX IS "real racing". :mad: Maybe not wheel to wheel, but "real" none-the-less. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry! I forgot to put in the quotes around "real." I've been autocrossing for about 11 years now and know this fact first hand... Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Mike
02 WRX Wagon
| KC | 01-13-2004 07:46 AM |
With the R-compounds, I can understand how they say more pressure... it's a grippy tire once it can find the surface, water or no water. The problem is when they hit water, they harden up, and then they also have no tread with water siping capabilities. Increasing the pressures by rounding them means the middle will contact and wehatever can be siped will be pushed off either side.
With a street tire, I'd have to disagree with increasing the pressures. Lowering pressures allows the tire to flex a little more under load while allowing a little more tire to touch the ground to find that relatively slippery surface. The difference here is having a tire that can evacuate the water through tread.
If you have a bald street tire with no chance of evacuation, you're done for. But if you have non-holograhic tread in the front where all the weight is... then it could evacuate the water.
Then it also comes down to temperatures and surface conditions. Perfect example is nationals. I ran azenis (over one year old tires at that.. new by no means). Those that ran the BFGs had problems because once that tire got some heat in them, they went away when they hit the water (hardened up). The Azenis that I had in the front had about 3/16s tread. Not a lot, but enough to evacuate water. I still hydroplaned on standing water... but I was able to steer through it. (Brake early, drive smooth like someone said).
To sum it up... I feel street tires should have less pressures to allow full use of the tread to evacuate the water and try and still get as large a contact area as possible.
With a street tire, I'd have to disagree with increasing the pressures. Lowering pressures allows the tire to flex a little more under load while allowing a little more tire to touch the ground to find that relatively slippery surface. The difference here is having a tire that can evacuate the water through tread.
If you have a bald street tire with no chance of evacuation, you're done for. But if you have non-holograhic tread in the front where all the weight is... then it could evacuate the water.
Then it also comes down to temperatures and surface conditions. Perfect example is nationals. I ran azenis (over one year old tires at that.. new by no means). Those that ran the BFGs had problems because once that tire got some heat in them, they went away when they hit the water (hardened up). The Azenis that I had in the front had about 3/16s tread. Not a lot, but enough to evacuate water. I still hydroplaned on standing water... but I was able to steer through it. (Brake early, drive smooth like someone said).
To sum it up... I feel street tires should have less pressures to allow full use of the tread to evacuate the water and try and still get as large a contact area as possible.
| WRXedUSA | 01-13-2004 08:10 PM |
mm, you can take your foam pad bench and other upholstry out and they wont care.
How many people do you see running with floor mats and a spare/jack? I don't see any.
STX class in Solo2 is what I'm running.
No, Turbo Miata ownz all.
How many people do you see running with floor mats and a spare/jack? I don't see any.
STX class in Solo2 is what I'm running.
No, Turbo Miata ownz all.
| mywrx2002 | 01-13-2004 09:01 PM |
If you racing STX I'm sorry ther can be no removal of any parts on the vehicle IE : seating surface removal, and the like or this will result in a DNF, protest, or disqualification. I'm definately guessing you don't run any national level events, or are not the chairperson of a national level Solo II event like some of us are.
I wish you the best, but lets do as were suppost to do:)
Thanks
I wish you the best, but lets do as were suppost to do:)
Thanks
| WRXedUSA | 01-13-2004 09:30 PM |
Nobody protest at local events.
Only when you go to Topeka.
i.e. Why I dont run a intercooler sprayer, I dont know, because I'm not going to nationals.
If people get all worked up at locals they are losing sight of what autoX is all about. Fun.
If you are a chairperson, I certainly hope you didnt see out region and our "Flying Subaru's" at our first coulple rallyX events:)
Only when you go to Topeka.
i.e. Why I dont run a intercooler sprayer, I dont know, because I'm not going to nationals.
If people get all worked up at locals they are losing sight of what autoX is all about. Fun.
If you are a chairperson, I certainly hope you didnt see out region and our "Flying Subaru's" at our first coulple rallyX events:)
| KC | 01-13-2004 09:37 PM |
On a local level you can do whatever you want. Different regions are quite lax about things. If you're close... you're in it. :)
But don't kid yourself about 'only Topeka'. Not all regions are as lax as others. I know some (like ours) that are quite by the book. National tours, divisionals... if you plan on doing any of those... be prepared to be 'by the book'. :)
It's when you constantly win... others can say something. It all comes down to that. Some people are cool about it... "Hey... I noticed you did this. That's a big no-no... you should look into getting it replaced if you want to keep winning."
Then if someone really wants to escalate things... they can find the event chair and complain.. then the event chair will come and say "Hey... I noticed you did this. That's a big no-no... you should look into getting it replaced if you want to keep winning."
:)
But don't kid yourself about 'only Topeka'. Not all regions are as lax as others. I know some (like ours) that are quite by the book. National tours, divisionals... if you plan on doing any of those... be prepared to be 'by the book'. :)
It's when you constantly win... others can say something. It all comes down to that. Some people are cool about it... "Hey... I noticed you did this. That's a big no-no... you should look into getting it replaced if you want to keep winning."
Then if someone really wants to escalate things... they can find the event chair and complain.. then the event chair will come and say "Hey... I noticed you did this. That's a big no-no... you should look into getting it replaced if you want to keep winning."
:)
| mywrx2002 | 01-13-2004 10:06 PM |
Thanks for the back up KC, will I be bumping into you next month in"K.C. " ?? If so shoot me a e-mail , or a PM and maybe we can have lunch or something during the convention and talk Suby :)
laters
laters
| WRXedUSA | 01-13-2004 11:06 PM |
Ah, no offense to either of you, but the all to common SCCA attitude is going full bore here now. Part of the reason why I choose not to member/hang around anymore, just go race, corner/pick up cones and leave.
Me and KC got into this discussion a while back before, so I'll leave it at that.
With that said, our region is "fun" to characterize it, maybe your's is a little more uppity.
Our region is all about getting more people to the track, event master, drive swap cars, try new things, setups, layouts.
Remember what Solo2 is about, learning to drive a car, learning how to use your car, and trying new things and learning others.
Track on!
:)
Me and KC got into this discussion a while back before, so I'll leave it at that.
With that said, our region is "fun" to characterize it, maybe your's is a little more uppity.
Our region is all about getting more people to the track, event master, drive swap cars, try new things, setups, layouts.
Remember what Solo2 is about, learning to drive a car, learning how to use your car, and trying new things and learning others.
Track on!
:)
| mywrx2002 | 01-14-2004 12:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXedUSA [/i]
[B]Ah, no offense to either of you, but the all to common SCCA attitude is going full bore here now. Part of the reason why I choose not to member/hang around anymore, just go race, corner/pick up cones and leave.
Me and KC got into this discussion a while back before, so I'll leave it at that.
With that said, our region is "fun" to characterize it, maybe your's is a little more uppity.
Our region is all about getting more people to the track, event master, drive swap cars, try new things, setups, layouts.
Remember what Solo2 is about, learning to drive a car, learning how to use your car, and trying new things and learning others.
Track on! :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Ok ..... first thing said is that were hijacking this thread, and maybe a moderator needs to make us one of our own .
With that said, I just have to understand this then your saying that we should just have no rules as long as everyhing is safe and everyone has fun ???
I guess the problem I have with this is that I come from a place that send numerous people to nationals who win, or the competators that will run in my region will compete and or win. We get numerous compliments on how our events are done, the sportsmanship and general way everything goes off ( All thanks actually to our R.E. who stepped down this year not me) .
We get kudos for being innovative with things like worker change on the fly that was pioneered 3 years ago , annual Tech for us to tech once a year and then just be spot checked, and now TRI region Annual Tech. so I'm now trying to figure out how you run in a region that is so "outlaw" and have any fun, or actually how you come up with a winner in any class ????
You spoke of a turbo Miata earlier, so I guess I'll just come to your event, register in STX, hand you your ass on a silver platter in the second fastest Miata in N. America ( documented) and go home laughing all for a plaque, glass, mug or what ever your trophy is . When you tell me how this is fair, how your PAX works, and how you can compare yourself to anyone I'd sure like to know.
Lastly I do think that events are great for the people who are getting to know their cars, we infact have "fun runs" , and a "driver education school" for this fact and to get seat time for people . I always promote our events when talking to the general public as driver assistance or car handling excersises plus when classed correctly and such they have a rock solid benchmark on how they did.
I'm again off the soapbox
[B]Ah, no offense to either of you, but the all to common SCCA attitude is going full bore here now. Part of the reason why I choose not to member/hang around anymore, just go race, corner/pick up cones and leave.
Me and KC got into this discussion a while back before, so I'll leave it at that.
With that said, our region is "fun" to characterize it, maybe your's is a little more uppity.
Our region is all about getting more people to the track, event master, drive swap cars, try new things, setups, layouts.
Remember what Solo2 is about, learning to drive a car, learning how to use your car, and trying new things and learning others.
Track on! :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Ok ..... first thing said is that were hijacking this thread, and maybe a moderator needs to make us one of our own .
With that said, I just have to understand this then your saying that we should just have no rules as long as everyhing is safe and everyone has fun ???
I guess the problem I have with this is that I come from a place that send numerous people to nationals who win, or the competators that will run in my region will compete and or win. We get numerous compliments on how our events are done, the sportsmanship and general way everything goes off ( All thanks actually to our R.E. who stepped down this year not me) .
We get kudos for being innovative with things like worker change on the fly that was pioneered 3 years ago , annual Tech for us to tech once a year and then just be spot checked, and now TRI region Annual Tech. so I'm now trying to figure out how you run in a region that is so "outlaw" and have any fun, or actually how you come up with a winner in any class ????
You spoke of a turbo Miata earlier, so I guess I'll just come to your event, register in STX, hand you your ass on a silver platter in the second fastest Miata in N. America ( documented) and go home laughing all for a plaque, glass, mug or what ever your trophy is . When you tell me how this is fair, how your PAX works, and how you can compare yourself to anyone I'd sure like to know.
Lastly I do think that events are great for the people who are getting to know their cars, we infact have "fun runs" , and a "driver education school" for this fact and to get seat time for people . I always promote our events when talking to the general public as driver assistance or car handling excersises plus when classed correctly and such they have a rock solid benchmark on how they did.
I'm again off the soapbox
| jcroy66 | 01-14-2004 07:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRXedUSA[/i]
[B] Remember what Solo2 is about, learning to drive a car, learning how to use your car, and trying new things and learning others. [/B][/QUOTE]
If it's just about having fun and learning to drive the car, then why not just class yourself in SM, where you'd belong??
I guess I just plain don't see what the point is of intentionally classing yourself in a class where things that you are doing are illegal.
One other quick comment. I can't imagine the seatbelts are working properly for your co-driver if the seat is reclined all the way. As a solo safety steward, I'd bring that up to you as a big no-no if you attempted that at one of our events, because it's compromising the functionality of safety equipment. But I guess that must just be one more example of how I'm "fuddy-duddy" and just don't know how to have fun. :rolleyes:
[B] Remember what Solo2 is about, learning to drive a car, learning how to use your car, and trying new things and learning others. [/B][/QUOTE]
If it's just about having fun and learning to drive the car, then why not just class yourself in SM, where you'd belong??
I guess I just plain don't see what the point is of intentionally classing yourself in a class where things that you are doing are illegal.
One other quick comment. I can't imagine the seatbelts are working properly for your co-driver if the seat is reclined all the way. As a solo safety steward, I'd bring that up to you as a big no-no if you attempted that at one of our events, because it's compromising the functionality of safety equipment. But I guess that must just be one more example of how I'm "fuddy-duddy" and just don't know how to have fun. :rolleyes:
| KC | 01-14-2004 07:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mywrx2002[/i]
[B] Thanks for the back up KC, will I be bumping into you next month in"K.C. " ?? If so shoot me a e-mail , or a PM and maybe we can have lunch or something during the convention and talk Suby :)
laters [/B][/QUOTE]?? What convention ??
[B] Thanks for the back up KC, will I be bumping into you next month in"K.C. " ?? If so shoot me a e-mail , or a PM and maybe we can have lunch or something during the convention and talk Suby :)
laters [/B][/QUOTE]?? What convention ??
| mywrx2002 | 01-14-2004 08:21 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]?? What convention ?? [/B][/QUOTE]
THe SCCA Nationa convention fron Feb, 4th to Feb. 8TH in Kansas City , Mo.
[B]?? What convention ?? [/B][/QUOTE]
THe SCCA Nationa convention fron Feb, 4th to Feb. 8TH in Kansas City , Mo.
| KC | 01-14-2004 08:29 AM |
Doh! No... not going. :)
| Warp3 | 01-14-2004 08:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mywrx2002 [/i]
[B]Plus I'd hope you walk all over a turbo miata. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sounds like someone who's never seen a well-driven well-prepped SM2 Miata in action. :lol: :D
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
SM 729
[B]Plus I'd hope you walk all over a turbo miata. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sounds like someone who's never seen a well-driven well-prepped SM2 Miata in action. :lol: :D
Shane -- [url]http://www.warpthree.com[/url]
SM 729
| zoomfactor | 01-14-2004 09:05 AM |
Just to add something to a thread that's gone a little off topic:D
Racing in the wet is the great equalizer. Horsepower, without smooth application, is more likely to be a disadvantage. I wish they would run more "wet" events -- even if it meant hosing off the track. An instructor I had a few years ago actually suggested that you use one gear higher in any areas where you would get wheel spin.
As far as "R" compounds in the wet, I have been very happy with the Yokohama 032's, which channel quite a bit of water without giving up too much contact patch.
Racing in the wet is the great equalizer. Horsepower, without smooth application, is more likely to be a disadvantage. I wish they would run more "wet" events -- even if it meant hosing off the track. An instructor I had a few years ago actually suggested that you use one gear higher in any areas where you would get wheel spin.
As far as "R" compounds in the wet, I have been very happy with the Yokohama 032's, which channel quite a bit of water without giving up too much contact patch.
| mywrx2002 | 01-14-2004 09:32 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mywrx2002 [/i]
[B]
You spoke of a turbo Miata earlier, so I guess I'll just come to your event, register in STX, hand you your ass on a silver platter in the second fastest Miata in N. America ( documented) and go home laughing all for a plaque, glass, mug or what ever your trophy is . When you tell me how this is fair, how your PAX works, and how you can compare yourself to anyone I'd sure like to know.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Shane, scroll back a bit... it's in a person in my regions storage facility :)
[B]
You spoke of a turbo Miata earlier, so I guess I'll just come to your event, register in STX, hand you your ass on a silver platter in the second fastest Miata in N. America ( documented) and go home laughing all for a plaque, glass, mug or what ever your trophy is . When you tell me how this is fair, how your PAX works, and how you can compare yourself to anyone I'd sure like to know.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Shane, scroll back a bit... it's in a person in my regions storage facility :)
| SpyHunter | 01-26-2004 12:16 AM |
[quote]the second fastest Miata in N. America ( documented)[/quote]
Is it in SM2 or in CSP? Just wondering.
I am failing to see why a WRX would walk all over a Turbo Miata? I think you underestimate FI Miata's.
Is it in SM2 or in CSP? Just wondering.
I am failing to see why a WRX would walk all over a Turbo Miata? I think you underestimate FI Miata's.
| mywrx2002 | 01-26-2004 12:19 AM |
sm2
| DuoMaxwell | 01-26-2004 05:05 AM |
This whole idea of changing tire pressures to accomidate road conditions is utter garbage. I am sorry if I offend anyone but thats not a good idea nor does it really help you even though you may think it does. Changing tires to accomidate road conditions helps and knowing how your car will react during different road conditions is the best thing. I would suggest running the specified tire pressure recommended by the manufacture unless your running a tire that is not recommended for your car!!
| makofoto | 01-26-2004 05:16 AM |
better check these articles: [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/airpress_vs_wetperf.html[/url]
And check tire pressure here: [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/mi_pilotsportcup.html[/url]
And under Tire Pressure in the rain: [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/racepres.htm[/url]
And check tire pressure here: [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/mi_pilotsportcup.html[/url]
And under Tire Pressure in the rain: [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/competition/racepres.htm[/url]
| DuoMaxwell | 01-26-2004 05:44 AM |
Nice articles but the first shows wet conditions what happens with underinflated tires and over inflated tires. Yea underinflated when racing with a target pressure of 32~36 which in most cars is SURVEY SAYS reccomended tire pressure. Meaning if you set your tire pressure at Xlbs it will reach Xlbs at this degree of driving. If this is on wet conditions or dry conditions I will keep the same. I have yet to lose or win by that small of a margin in any of the auto x races I have ran.
Also TireRack is not what I would call professional Race car builders or drivers. I am not saying they are wrong but I have discussed this with several tuning garages here in Japan including but not limited to Jun and G Force as well as Bee Racing. I think I will take their word for it.
Also TireRack is not what I would call professional Race car builders or drivers. I am not saying they are wrong but I have discussed this with several tuning garages here in Japan including but not limited to Jun and G Force as well as Bee Racing. I think I will take their word for it.
| KC | 01-26-2004 08:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMaxwell[/i]
[B] This whole idea of changing tire pressures to accomidate road conditions is utter garbage. I am sorry if I offend anyone but thats not a good idea nor does it really help you even though you may think it does. Changing tires to accomidate road conditions helps and knowing how your car will react during different road conditions is the best thing. I would suggest running the specified tire pressure recommended by the manufacture unless your running a tire that is not recommended for your car!! [/B][/QUOTE]
In the realm of auto-x where every .001 second counts... one lb of pressure could mean the difference of being 1st or 2nd. Don't believe me? Go talk to all the 2nd place finishers from nationals and you'll get one of three answers... 1) should have done x section of the course different 2) should have braked earlier at x, 3) couldn't get the tire pressures right. The surface at Topeka on their bumpy concrete is so drastically different than the smooth concrete found at Toledo airport, and also vastly different from the asphalt at Petersbug VA and the asphalt I run on at Ft. Devens in Ayer, MA. Tire pressures do make a difference. You can disagree with that until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that people drive on all these locations on the same set of tires, on different pressures... national class winners (I'm not talking about me, but 95% of the other drivers running). Not to mention what outsitde temperatures can do to r-compounds and their pressures... running on a 60 degree day vs a 90 degree day in Indiana.
Throw in some rain while you're in grid on your holographic tread r-compounds... which generally run HIGHER than recommended pressures... (and you now are stuck with the tires) and you need to make adjustments. (Which is what the topic is about) Sure, we all know Hoosier Dirt Stockers are the perfect (r-compound) rain tire for auto-x.. but when you're stuck where you need to make a decision, there's a few schools of thought.
If you have one set of tires on the car at an autox, and these are the tires that you run in the dry AND in the wet, then you need to take that into account. We don't carry around 3 different sets just for autox (I do know a fdew in the mod classes that do). We generally have one set that we need to 'make do with'.
Also, people do run different DOT size tires/tread/grip than what are recommended, so therefore pressures do make a difference.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMaxwell[/i]
[B] Also TireRack is not what I would call professional Race car builders or drivers. I am not saying they are wrong but I have discussed this with several tuning garages here in Japan including but not limited to Jun and G Force as well as Bee Racing. I think I will take their word for it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Go for it. They do not have the expereince of running on all the varied surfances that we have over here, where our national events are held, in those conditions.
When they enter a car in the US auto-x series and start winning without changing pressures, then you can use them as a reference... apples and oranges.
[B] This whole idea of changing tire pressures to accomidate road conditions is utter garbage. I am sorry if I offend anyone but thats not a good idea nor does it really help you even though you may think it does. Changing tires to accomidate road conditions helps and knowing how your car will react during different road conditions is the best thing. I would suggest running the specified tire pressure recommended by the manufacture unless your running a tire that is not recommended for your car!! [/B][/QUOTE]
In the realm of auto-x where every .001 second counts... one lb of pressure could mean the difference of being 1st or 2nd. Don't believe me? Go talk to all the 2nd place finishers from nationals and you'll get one of three answers... 1) should have done x section of the course different 2) should have braked earlier at x, 3) couldn't get the tire pressures right. The surface at Topeka on their bumpy concrete is so drastically different than the smooth concrete found at Toledo airport, and also vastly different from the asphalt at Petersbug VA and the asphalt I run on at Ft. Devens in Ayer, MA. Tire pressures do make a difference. You can disagree with that until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that people drive on all these locations on the same set of tires, on different pressures... national class winners (I'm not talking about me, but 95% of the other drivers running). Not to mention what outsitde temperatures can do to r-compounds and their pressures... running on a 60 degree day vs a 90 degree day in Indiana.
Throw in some rain while you're in grid on your holographic tread r-compounds... which generally run HIGHER than recommended pressures... (and you now are stuck with the tires) and you need to make adjustments. (Which is what the topic is about) Sure, we all know Hoosier Dirt Stockers are the perfect (r-compound) rain tire for auto-x.. but when you're stuck where you need to make a decision, there's a few schools of thought.
If you have one set of tires on the car at an autox, and these are the tires that you run in the dry AND in the wet, then you need to take that into account. We don't carry around 3 different sets just for autox (I do know a fdew in the mod classes that do). We generally have one set that we need to 'make do with'.
Also, people do run different DOT size tires/tread/grip than what are recommended, so therefore pressures do make a difference.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMaxwell[/i]
[B] Also TireRack is not what I would call professional Race car builders or drivers. I am not saying they are wrong but I have discussed this with several tuning garages here in Japan including but not limited to Jun and G Force as well as Bee Racing. I think I will take their word for it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Go for it. They do not have the expereince of running on all the varied surfances that we have over here, where our national events are held, in those conditions.
When they enter a car in the US auto-x series and start winning without changing pressures, then you can use them as a reference... apples and oranges.
| zosima | 01-26-2004 10:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Go talk to all the 2nd place finishers from nationals and you'll get one of three answers... 1) should have done x section of the course different 2) should have braked earlier at x, 3) couldn't get the tire pressures right.[/B][/QUOTE]
or 4) KC has a mini-NOS bottle hidden in his trunk monkey, I [B]KNOW[/B] it!
[B]Go talk to all the 2nd place finishers from nationals and you'll get one of three answers... 1) should have done x section of the course different 2) should have braked earlier at x, 3) couldn't get the tire pressures right.[/B][/QUOTE]
or 4) KC has a mini-NOS bottle hidden in his trunk monkey, I [B]KNOW[/B] it!
| SpyHunter | 01-26-2004 11:13 AM |
Do you beat this car in your WRX? Is it Dan Pedroza's FM supercharged M2?
Either way, do you walk all over this car at your local events? I am not here to start anything, it was just brought to my attention so I thought I would check it out.
The Turbo Miata in question is mine. I have not run the car with the setup yet, so the smack talking on my behalf started a little early. ;) I was a front runner (Getting at least half of the FTD's) in my area last year without boost. So, to say that I will be relearning the car this year is an understatement. Maybe we will see you this year at Nationals. I have not attended yet for lack of funds and having a car that is prepared to what I think is National's worthy. Depending on how this year goes, I may be there. If so, hopefully we can meet up and have a good laugh.
Either way, do you walk all over this car at your local events? I am not here to start anything, it was just brought to my attention so I thought I would check it out.
The Turbo Miata in question is mine. I have not run the car with the setup yet, so the smack talking on my behalf started a little early. ;) I was a front runner (Getting at least half of the FTD's) in my area last year without boost. So, to say that I will be relearning the car this year is an understatement. Maybe we will see you this year at Nationals. I have not attended yet for lack of funds and having a car that is prepared to what I think is National's worthy. Depending on how this year goes, I may be there. If so, hopefully we can meet up and have a good laugh.
| KC | 01-26-2004 11:23 AM |
I wanna see Dan or you beat out the Vettes in SM2. They need to be beat. :D
--kC
--kC
| DuoMaxwell | 01-27-2004 07:57 AM |
Like I said unless your running a tire specified for your car which I do believe may require a different pressure. You made a good point KC. Ahhh a good disagreement kept level headed. I love this place LOL!!!
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