| chimchimm5 | 08-21-2006 07:46 PM |
Autox start/launch...
�
�
As a noob to autox, I'm doing a lot of post analysis of my first experience. On the subject of launching/starting, the one I went to had a very short start. Start was about 10 feet behind the start gate.
So I know that time does not start until you pass the gate, but what method should I use to start?
Since my 06 WRX wagon is my everything car (read: daily driver) and I'm not competitive, I had no intent of frying my clutch or shocking my driveline. So I ended up slipping just enough at low RPM's to get the car going, and once hooked up riding through the boggy 1k-3k rpm range.
Now, although I did not care about being competitive, I do care about competing with myself, so I don't want kill myself on crappy starts.
So what is the proper way to start?
So I know that time does not start until you pass the gate, but what method should I use to start?
Since my 06 WRX wagon is my everything car (read: daily driver) and I'm not competitive, I had no intent of frying my clutch or shocking my driveline. So I ended up slipping just enough at low RPM's to get the car going, and once hooked up riding through the boggy 1k-3k rpm range.
Now, although I did not care about being competitive, I do care about competing with myself, so I don't want kill myself on crappy starts.
So what is the proper way to start?
| frostyTSM | 08-21-2006 08:04 PM |
I try to start around 3k. That way my turbo is spooled up. I give the clutch time to engage rather than dumping it, but its kind of like an agressive launch I might do on the street.
... but then I am not competitive.
... but then I am not competitive.
| Slick33 | 08-21-2006 08:07 PM |
You'll find that there's a lot of arguments and disagreement on this subject. Personally, I've never found much use in launching at the beginning, since the time potentially gained would be negligable with my driving skills (or lack thereof). I'd say a nice, gentle slip of the clutch (as opposed to an all-out drag launch) with the revs high enough to get your turbo spooling would be the best method, but since you admit that your car's a daily driver and you're not near the top of your class, personally I'd omit launching. Work on getting consistent times around the course, then you can worry about whether launching the car will shave off a tenth or two.
| chimchimm5 | 08-21-2006 08:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Slick33]You'll find that there's a lot of arguments and disagreement on this subject. Personally, I've never found much use in launching at the beginning, since the time potentially gained would be negligable with my driving skills (or lack thereof). I'd say a nice, gentle slip of the clutch (as opposed to an all-out drag launch) with the revs high enough to get your turbo spooling would be the best method, but since you admit that your car's a daily driver and you're not near the top of your class, personally I'd omit launching. Work on getting consistent times around the course, then you can worry about whether launching the car will shave off a tenth or two.[/QUOTE]
Consitent times? Heh... when I went out, my official runs (4 of them) were all within 0.4 seconds of each other. I didn't matter how I launch, how much I understeered or didn't, which line I took, how hot or not I went in, how smooth or not I was... I'd get within 0.4 seconds. My friend and I kept laughing at ourselves because he was Mr 0.2 seconds window.
So I guess I'm "consistently crappy"? :p
Ok, that being said, in the 4 fun runs afterwards, my LAST run of the day I improved about 2.5 seconds over my worst run of the day (which was an official one). Fun runs were run immediately after my group, so I'm guessing that "later in the day" didn't make that much difference.
Consitent times? Heh... when I went out, my official runs (4 of them) were all within 0.4 seconds of each other. I didn't matter how I launch, how much I understeered or didn't, which line I took, how hot or not I went in, how smooth or not I was... I'd get within 0.4 seconds. My friend and I kept laughing at ourselves because he was Mr 0.2 seconds window.
So I guess I'm "consistently crappy"? :p
Ok, that being said, in the 4 fun runs afterwards, my LAST run of the day I improved about 2.5 seconds over my worst run of the day (which was an official one). Fun runs were run immediately after my group, so I'm guessing that "later in the day" didn't make that much difference.
| KC | 08-21-2006 09:59 PM |
Course starts should be designed to minimize different, more powerful cars, launch characteristics. They should almost all have a semi tight turn right after the lights to minimize 'launching'.
So with that in mind, 3k, slip the clutch. No reason for a rocket start just to screw up the very 1st corner on the course.
--kC
So with that in mind, 3k, slip the clutch. No reason for a rocket start just to screw up the very 1st corner on the course.
--kC
| mykrrrr | 08-21-2006 10:06 PM |
What kC said because once you hit 12mph...
| skuttledude | 08-22-2006 09:24 AM |
KC +1
I never abuse my start. Unless you are going for thousdandths of a sec in a points battle (I lost FTD by .001 once..that's another story) its not worth it.
I rather focus on nailing the first bunch of turns perfectly than a launch.
I never abuse my start. Unless you are going for thousdandths of a sec in a points battle (I lost FTD by .001 once..that's another story) its not worth it.
I rather focus on nailing the first bunch of turns perfectly than a launch.
| MF-DIF | 08-22-2006 09:39 AM |
It depends how soon the first gated turn is from the start. I'll admit, I love launching. So if the situation allows I will slip it out at 5k. No use in doing this though if the first curve is 15ft away. You'll sling shot past the gate and DNF. :D
| Scooby921 | 08-22-2006 09:57 AM |
I agree with both kC and MF-DIF. It all depends on where the first turn is and how tight it is. If its tight, low RPM's so you can make the corner. If its open...run it up higher and put a big smile on your face.
I experienced both at the Canadian auto-x championships. Day one the 1st turn was 5 feet away from the start. I was launching at 3000-3500RPM's. Day two the start was straight with the first turn a very slight sweeper. I was launching at 5000-5500RPM. I would definitely stay under 5500. Above that and you'll get the wheels to spin and a little hop. That will pretty much negate all the time you would have gained.
You might also want to think about your clutch and how often you want to replace it. Slipping it from 5k will wear it out faster than slipping from 3k. It also puts a little more stress through the gears. I know a couple of the better prepped STX cars have gone through clutches, gearsets, and diffs just this season.
I experienced both at the Canadian auto-x championships. Day one the 1st turn was 5 feet away from the start. I was launching at 3000-3500RPM's. Day two the start was straight with the first turn a very slight sweeper. I was launching at 5000-5500RPM. I would definitely stay under 5500. Above that and you'll get the wheels to spin and a little hop. That will pretty much negate all the time you would have gained.
You might also want to think about your clutch and how often you want to replace it. Slipping it from 5k will wear it out faster than slipping from 3k. It also puts a little more stress through the gears. I know a couple of the better prepped STX cars have gone through clutches, gearsets, and diffs just this season.
| fantomrex24 | 08-22-2006 10:15 AM |
i agree. concentrate on the course itself not the take off. i usually get mine up to around 2-2.5k then just roll out. ofcourse the dp helps the spool. but i get out of the box w/ just enough heat to give me a good start. just my 2 cents. :banana: damn thats a happy autoX banana!
late
brad
late
brad
| KC | 08-22-2006 10:18 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby921]I know a couple of the better prepped STX cars have gone through clutches, gearsets, and diffs just this season.[/QUOTE]And that is where one has to ask themselves...
"Is it worth blowing a clutch, or possibly even my tranny, for a $2.00 trophy at a local event?"
That answer shouldn't be anything other than "no". There's no reason on the local level, especially for a beginner, to be concerned with 'how to launch'.
"Start out like you're just pulling out of your parents driveway" is what I tell most of my students. There's more to learn right now than the launch.
--kC
"Is it worth blowing a clutch, or possibly even my tranny, for a $2.00 trophy at a local event?"
That answer shouldn't be anything other than "no". There's no reason on the local level, especially for a beginner, to be concerned with 'how to launch'.
"Start out like you're just pulling out of your parents driveway" is what I tell most of my students. There's more to learn right now than the launch.
--kC
| ExitVisa | 08-22-2006 10:30 AM |
^^ Amen to that.
| PhilC | 08-22-2006 11:13 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby921]I know a couple of the better prepped STX cars have gone through clutches, gearsets, and diffs just this season.[/QUOTE]
Jason, us and Josh have all gone through transmissions this year. Ours was a 2nd gear at a local, Josh's was a 1st at a Pro Solo, and I think Jason's was 1st gear at the Canadian Championships. We and Josh have also taken out rear diffs this year, both at Pro Solos. As Tom likes to point out our three cars are now up near the number of Pro Solo launches that his car had. Pro Solo is brutal on the car and unfortunately you have to expect to break things if you're doing it often and are serious about it. I certainly don't launch the car at a local the way we do at a Pro, in fact I can't think of a local in the last year where I've launched the car at more than 3500. That includes the event where the car decided to eat 2nd gear.
As KC pointed out it's not worth the damage potential to the car for a $2 trophy.
Jason, us and Josh have all gone through transmissions this year. Ours was a 2nd gear at a local, Josh's was a 1st at a Pro Solo, and I think Jason's was 1st gear at the Canadian Championships. We and Josh have also taken out rear diffs this year, both at Pro Solos. As Tom likes to point out our three cars are now up near the number of Pro Solo launches that his car had. Pro Solo is brutal on the car and unfortunately you have to expect to break things if you're doing it often and are serious about it. I certainly don't launch the car at a local the way we do at a Pro, in fact I can't think of a local in the last year where I've launched the car at more than 3500. That includes the event where the car decided to eat 2nd gear.
As KC pointed out it's not worth the damage potential to the car for a $2 trophy.
| jcroy66 | 08-22-2006 11:23 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]"Is it worth blowing a clutch, or possibly even my tranny, for a $2.00 trophy at a local event?"
That answer shouldn't be anything other than "no".[/QUOTE]Bingo. I actually will remind myself at local events that "this is not a ProSolo, there is no reason to launch hard or shift hard."
That answer shouldn't be anything other than "no".[/QUOTE]Bingo. I actually will remind myself at local events that "this is not a ProSolo, there is no reason to launch hard or shift hard."
| subieworx | 08-22-2006 11:39 AM |
My friend got pissed at the last autox last weekend and accidentally launched his sti at 6600....not good. Strange lauching with the shift light blinking.
I'm with KC on this one. If you're new, there is much more to learn than the launch. I normally launch hard when the course permits, but I also normally win SM so I try to get as much advantage as possible.
I'm with KC on this one. If you're new, there is much more to learn than the launch. I normally launch hard when the course permits, but I also normally win SM so I try to get as much advantage as possible.
| SWortham | 08-22-2006 11:50 AM |
Sounds like most everyone is saying the same thing. A fairly "soft" launch starting at 3K and letting the clutch out smoothly works well. If the engine bogs, then you didn't do it right. I'm still working on it. But at the test & tune a couple weekends ago the difference between a bogged start and a well-executed launch into boost was apparent in my times. I did enough runs to where my times were very consistent, and a poor launch could result in a couple tenths lost or more.
| Slick33 | 08-22-2006 12:41 PM |
[QUOTE=chimchimm5]Consitent times? Heh... when I went out, my official runs (4 of them) were all within 0.4 seconds of each other. I didn't matter how I launch, how much I understeered or didn't, which line I took, how hot or not I went in, how smooth or not I was... I'd get within 0.4 seconds. My friend and I kept laughing at ourselves because he was Mr 0.2 seconds window.
So I guess I'm "consistently crappy"? :p
Ok, that being said, in the 4 fun runs afterwards, my LAST run of the day I improved about 2.5 seconds over my worst run of the day (which was an official one). Fun runs were run immediately after my group, so I'm guessing that "later in the day" didn't make that much difference.[/QUOTE]
Well you didn't say you were consistent in your original post :p
Consistency is good...now just work on being [i]fast[/i] and consistent! ;)
The rest of this thread's got some good advice though. It's been quite awhile since I've run an auto-x event, and the typical "immediate turn after the timing light" thing didn't even occur to me. So yeah, listen to those guys. :)
So I guess I'm "consistently crappy"? :p
Ok, that being said, in the 4 fun runs afterwards, my LAST run of the day I improved about 2.5 seconds over my worst run of the day (which was an official one). Fun runs were run immediately after my group, so I'm guessing that "later in the day" didn't make that much difference.[/QUOTE]
Well you didn't say you were consistent in your original post :p
Consistency is good...now just work on being [i]fast[/i] and consistent! ;)
The rest of this thread's got some good advice though. It's been quite awhile since I've run an auto-x event, and the typical "immediate turn after the timing light" thing didn't even occur to me. So yeah, listen to those guys. :)
| angryfist | 08-22-2006 01:14 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]"Is it worth blowing a clutch, or possibly even my tranny, for a $2.00 trophy at a local event?"--kC[/QUOTE]
pshh... my motto is go big or go home... :lol: :lol:
pshh... my motto is go big or go home... :lol: :lol:
| Scooby921 | 08-22-2006 01:21 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Jason, us and Josh have all gone through transmissions this year. Ours was a 2nd gear at a local, Josh's was a 1st at a Pro Solo, and I think Jason's was 1st gear at the Canadian Championships. We and Josh have also taken out rear diffs this year, both at Pro Solos. As Tom likes to point out our three cars are now up near the number of Pro Solo launches that his car had. Pro Solo is brutal on the car and unfortunately you have to expect to break things if you're doing it often and are serious about it. I certainly don't launch the car at a local the way we do at a Pro, in fact I can't think of a local in the last year where I've launched the car at more than 3500. That includes the event where the car decided to eat 2nd gear.
As KC pointed out it's not worth the damage potential to the car for a $2 trophy.[/QUOTE]
Jason's car lost 2nd...and Billy did it, but that's beside the point. Its even more ridiculous when you know that STX was an exhibition class and there were no trophies handed out!
Anyway, I'll agree once again. Beating on the car at a local event just doesn't make sense. Especially if you run it nationally. You don't need to risk breaking it at the wrong time. On the other hand, there are those of us who are far enough behind that we'll do whatever we can to shave off a few tenths of the gap (translation = Jason usually beats me by 2 seconds and its embarrassing).
As KC pointed out it's not worth the damage potential to the car for a $2 trophy.[/QUOTE]
Jason's car lost 2nd...and Billy did it, but that's beside the point. Its even more ridiculous when you know that STX was an exhibition class and there were no trophies handed out!
Anyway, I'll agree once again. Beating on the car at a local event just doesn't make sense. Especially if you run it nationally. You don't need to risk breaking it at the wrong time. On the other hand, there are those of us who are far enough behind that we'll do whatever we can to shave off a few tenths of the gap (translation = Jason usually beats me by 2 seconds and its embarrassing).
| KC | 08-22-2006 01:26 PM |
[QUOTE=angryfist]pshh... my motto is go big or go home... :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]
:lol:
--kC
:lol:
--kC
| Student Driver | 08-22-2006 01:30 PM |
Odds are even with an "aggressive" slip at 3K rpm, you'll launch faster than most other cars on street tires. I usually float around 3-3.5K RPM.
| KC | 08-22-2006 01:55 PM |
Is this the point where I come clean and say I launch at 6-7K in my RX8 at local events? :lol:
But then again, it's RWD and there's no harm in doing so... nothing's gonna break when all I get is tire spin. ;)
If solo-x is reading this, he's seen me launch into the 1st corner.... wheee!!!!
--kC
But then again, it's RWD and there's no harm in doing so... nothing's gonna break when all I get is tire spin. ;)
If solo-x is reading this, he's seen me launch into the 1st corner.... wheee!!!!
--kC
| subieworx | 08-22-2006 01:59 PM |
I launch the mr2 at 5 or so. It sticks so nice!!!!
Launch the evo at 6500...I figure I might as well since that where the launch limiter is.
Launch the evo at 6500...I figure I might as well since that where the launch limiter is.
| jtmcinder | 08-22-2006 03:48 PM |
I have two toys for launching at autocrosses, especially with passengers. The first is the studderbox. The second is a cell phone to get a ride home.
- Jtoby
- Jtoby
| KC | 08-22-2006 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=jtmcinder]I have two toys for launching at autocrosses, especially with passengers. The first is the studderbox. The second is a cell phone to get a ride home.
- Jtoby[/QUOTE]
Well duh... it's a DSM. ;)
At least Charles Moss has a trailer now so if he or Fedja blow the car up at Nationals this year... they can get it home. ;)
--kC
- Jtoby[/QUOTE]
Well duh... it's a DSM. ;)
At least Charles Moss has a trailer now so if he or Fedja blow the car up at Nationals this year... they can get it home. ;)
--kC
| solo-x | 08-22-2006 06:07 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Is this the point where I come clean and say I launch at 6-7K in my RX8 at local events? :lol:
But then again, it's RWD and there's no harm in doing so... nothing's gonna break when all I get is tire spin. ;)
If solo-x is reading this, he's seen me launch into the 1st corner.... wheee!!!!
--kC[/QUOTE]
you need to clarify though, that at 6-7k in your car you're only making 32lb/ft of torque. :D :lol:
nate - can say stuff like that since he drives a honduh
But then again, it's RWD and there's no harm in doing so... nothing's gonna break when all I get is tire spin. ;)
If solo-x is reading this, he's seen me launch into the 1st corner.... wheee!!!!
--kC[/QUOTE]
you need to clarify though, that at 6-7k in your car you're only making 32lb/ft of torque. :D :lol:
nate - can say stuff like that since he drives a honduh
| KC | 08-22-2006 06:50 PM |
Come on.... I'm making at least 50!!!
| solo-x | 08-22-2006 07:49 PM |
doh! forgot about all the stikerz!
| steverife | 08-22-2006 11:39 PM |
I launch my CRX at around 3k. Any higher than that and the chance of pieces of my dash getting wedged under my brake pedal are greatly increased. :p
| DrBiggly | 08-23-2006 12:16 PM |
I was quite surprised the first time I ran an STS Civic: The owner said to rev it up high and just let it spin. From the feel if it I doubted if I would ever break any driveline component in the thing as it just spun a bit and went about it's way.
WRX: That's a whole different bag of peanuts. There is a local guy who launches in a trannies-be-damned manner at local autoxs. On brand new RT-615s he was causing the tires to squeal a bit coming off of the line. :eek: He also broke something at a recent local event as well (pressure plate I think actually.) Personally I can't remember what the RPMs are that I rev to as I'm looking at the course and/or starter. I rev it up a bit and go on. No tire spin, no drama, no driveline clunking or bucking. As long as it's smooth I don't worry and given the car's transmission history I'm quite paranoid about it. Thus the come off the line smooth bit. :)
-Biggly
WRX: That's a whole different bag of peanuts. There is a local guy who launches in a trannies-be-damned manner at local autoxs. On brand new RT-615s he was causing the tires to squeal a bit coming off of the line. :eek: He also broke something at a recent local event as well (pressure plate I think actually.) Personally I can't remember what the RPMs are that I rev to as I'm looking at the course and/or starter. I rev it up a bit and go on. No tire spin, no drama, no driveline clunking or bucking. As long as it's smooth I don't worry and given the car's transmission history I'm quite paranoid about it. Thus the come off the line smooth bit. :)
-Biggly
| WRX11 | 08-24-2006 09:47 AM |
I do it when it benefit the times on the course design. That is not to say you rev it to redline instead I rev it to the point where there are still maximum grip at the clutch and the contact patches.
| fantomrex24 | 08-25-2006 08:52 AM |
you drop the clutch near redline on a wrx & see what happens. you jump forward & your tranny stays where you previously sat. lol. but like everyone said, its based on your course lay out. theres alot more things you need to work on in autoX than the launch. like making time in the slalom or cuttin the chicago box quicker. the driving is the most important thing. this aint drag racing yo :p . :banana: damn thats a happy slalom smoking banana!
late
brad
late
brad
| PhilC | 08-25-2006 09:14 AM |
[QUOTE=fantomrex24]you drop the clutch near redline on a wrx & see what happens. you jump forward & your tranny stays where you previously sat. lol.[/QUOTE]
I typically launch at 6000 in a Pro. You have to in order to turn repeatable 1.8 60s. 76 launches like that in competition this year alone and 30 more practice starts. Is it brutal on the car? Damn right it is, but then again our first transmission lasted for close to 300 of those launches before blowing up at a local where I was launching at 3000ish.
Are repeated 6000 RPM launches going to destroy your transmission? Probably. Is one or two going to do it? Only if you're unlucky. I'm pretty unlucky and you'll never find me doing a launch like that at a local. :lol:
I typically launch at 6000 in a Pro. You have to in order to turn repeatable 1.8 60s. 76 launches like that in competition this year alone and 30 more practice starts. Is it brutal on the car? Damn right it is, but then again our first transmission lasted for close to 300 of those launches before blowing up at a local where I was launching at 3000ish.
Are repeated 6000 RPM launches going to destroy your transmission? Probably. Is one or two going to do it? Only if you're unlucky. I'm pretty unlucky and you'll never find me doing a launch like that at a local. :lol:
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét