| artkevin | 08-05-2004 06:59 PM |
Button to Williams...WHAaaaaaa!?!?!
�
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Button is going to Williams in 2005. I never saw that one coming! Da Matta is out of a seat already at Toyota saying Zonta will take his seat from here on out. Webber, JPM, Fisi, Trulli, Coulthard, Ralphie and da Matta are all on the move. This is the silliest season I have ever seen.
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/[/url]
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/[/url]
| scoobysport | 08-05-2004 07:04 PM |
Button moves to Williams for 05/06
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I just heard news that Jenson Button will be moving from the BAR team to the Williams team for the 05/06 F1 season. I can't believe this. I am almost lost for words. If this in fact true, I don't know if this is a good move or not. BAR seems to be moving in the right direction, whereas Williams seems to be losing some ground to the other teams. Anyone else hear about this?
Brian
edit: sorry about the double post, beat me to it :lol:
Brian
edit: sorry about the double post, beat me to it :lol:
| StuBeck | 08-05-2004 08:29 PM |
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/040806001123.shtml[/url]
I was going to say that I hadn't heard anything about it...but whoa, that is interesting. Williams will get better next year. They tried something radical with the new nose and it didn't work. Give them a bit of time and I think they'll get back to where they were in the middle of 03.
I'm just wondering if this means that Villenueve may return to BAR next year.
I was going to say that I hadn't heard anything about it...but whoa, that is interesting. Williams will get better next year. They tried something radical with the new nose and it didn't work. Give them a bit of time and I think they'll get back to where they were in the middle of 03.
I'm just wondering if this means that Villenueve may return to BAR next year.
| artkevin | 08-05-2004 09:05 PM |
Anthony Davidson should probably get the open set at BAR. They love him and he his in a great spot. They don't lose any developement with Button leaving if they just promote a test driver. Hes a Brit too, which doesn't hurt. British Team with Japense engines and the drivers to match.
| WagnerRX03 | 08-05-2004 10:10 PM |
I stopped following F1 when Senna died back in '94, it's no fun when Shummy has no competition...might as well just hand him the title in the beggining of the season and save everyone alot of time and money.
| erich_sc | 08-05-2004 10:11 PM |
Wow, lots of pressure for Webber now! Who will be the first to win a race? Should be a great show between them. I can't imagine there being a #1 or #2 driver alla Ferrari.
| erich_sc | 08-05-2004 10:13 PM |
You sound like Eeyore...
| BillT | 08-05-2004 10:47 PM |
The Button signing did come as a bit of shock, but it now makes you understand why BAR had been hinting on having an open seat for next year with everyone thinking that they make be dropping 'Another Blown Engine' Sato when it was really Jenson who was on his way out. It should also make for an interesting team at Williams next especially considering that Webber was the record stating that he would want the 2nd driver at Williams to be his 'Rubens' and help him win but I doubt Jenson will do that!
| Ferg | 08-05-2004 11:48 PM |
Does this mean we'll see DC in the BAR next year? Here's hoping.
| AndyRoo | 08-06-2004 08:41 AM |
daaamnn thats a surprise
panis maybe back at BAR? i have no idea whats goin on, I hope its Davidson and not Villenueve, the Brits like him and hes a good driver.
edit: and is williams really a step up from BAR?
panis maybe back at BAR? i have no idea whats goin on, I hope its Davidson and not Villenueve, the Brits like him and hes a good driver.
edit: and is williams really a step up from BAR?
| ingko | 08-06-2004 09:09 AM |
Well, looks like BAR isn't gonna take this sitting down. According to f1-live, David Richards is 'furious' and questioned how Button would do this to them. Theyre gonna leave the matter up to the lawyers. In this boring season of Ferrari and the summer break, this is great news to hear!
The Williams team still can't top McLarens super duo of my boy Juan Pablo and Raikkonen.
The Williams team still can't top McLarens super duo of my boy Juan Pablo and Raikkonen.
| Bonzo | 08-06-2004 09:13 AM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]Does this mean we'll see DC in the BAR next year? Here's hoping.[/QUOTE]
I may be wrong but I thought DC was going to Toyota.
I may be wrong but I thought DC was going to Toyota.
| Chromer | 08-06-2004 10:40 AM |
[QUOTE=ingko]Well, looks like BAR isn't gonna take this sitting down. According to f1-live, David Richards is 'furious' and questioned how Button would do this to them. Theyre gonna leave the matter up to the lawyers. In this boring season of Ferrari and the summer break, this is great news to hear!
The Williams team still can't top McLarens super duo of my boy Juan Pablo and Raikkonen.[/QUOTE]
Flavio needed a new yacht, so he had to do some deals to get the pocket change for it...
(I have no idea if Button has Flavio Briatore(sp?) as an agent or not...)
The Williams team still can't top McLarens super duo of my boy Juan Pablo and Raikkonen.[/QUOTE]
Flavio needed a new yacht, so he had to do some deals to get the pocket change for it...
(I have no idea if Button has Flavio Briatore(sp?) as an agent or not...)
| ChrisW | 08-06-2004 10:54 AM |
dyam.... talk about the silly season... I don't know about this manuvere, button is doing great at BAR. At this point I think the BAR >= williams.
| AndyRoo | 08-06-2004 10:57 AM |
maybe williams > BAR as soon as they get rid of the walrus front nose? not sure, just a thought.
edit: also, this isnt very nice of Button to do this without warning to the team that helped him prosper.
edit: also, this isnt very nice of Button to do this without warning to the team that helped him prosper.
| StuBeck | 08-06-2004 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE=BillT]The Button signing did come as a bit of shock, but it now makes you understand why BAR had been hinting on having an open seat for next year with everyone thinking that they make be dropping 'Another Blown Engine' Sato when it was really Jenson who was on his way out. It should also make for an interesting team at Williams next especially considering that Webber was the record stating that he would want the 2nd driver at Williams to be his 'Rubens' and help him win but I doubt Jenson will do that![/QUOTE]
Are you sure? On another site someone said the same thing and it is actually some BS that Murray Walker made up when asked a BS question. Its being attributed to Webber though which isn't too nice since he never said it.
Are you sure? On another site someone said the same thing and it is actually some BS that Murray Walker made up when asked a BS question. Its being attributed to Webber though which isn't too nice since he never said it.
| StuBeck | 08-06-2004 11:02 AM |
[QUOTE=Bonzo]I may be wrong but I thought DC was going to Toyota.[/QUOTE]
That was Trulli. DC is probably going to Jaguar...at least I hope so.
<<< Jaguar fan.
That was Trulli. DC is probably going to Jaguar...at least I hope so.
<<< Jaguar fan.
| AndyRoo | 08-06-2004 11:05 AM |
DC to jaguar would be cool
DaMatta is already trying to get in the new BAR seat. I hope he gets a ride next year, toyota has screwed him in my opinion.
DaMatta is already trying to get in the new BAR seat. I hope he gets a ride next year, toyota has screwed him in my opinion.
| Ferg | 08-06-2004 11:47 AM |
[QUOTE=AndyRoo]maybe williams > BAR as soon as they get rid of the walrus front nose? not sure, just a thought.[/QUOTE]
We'll find out in Hungary...the walrus nose is now a thing of the past.
[QUOTE]"The team will present its cars in Hungary with some aero modifications, including a return to a more conventional nose and front wing solution,� said Williams.[/QUOTE]
We'll find out in Hungary...the walrus nose is now a thing of the past.
[QUOTE]"The team will present its cars in Hungary with some aero modifications, including a return to a more conventional nose and front wing solution,� said Williams.[/QUOTE]
| Ferg | 08-06-2004 11:53 AM |
[QUOTE=BillT] It should also make for an interesting team at Williams next especially considering that Webber was the record stating that he would want the 2nd driver at Williams to be his 'Rubens' and help him win but I doubt Jenson will do that![/QUOTE]
I seem to recall Webber saying something [i]very[/i] different...
[QUOTE]"I have absolutely no influence on it. I need someone with whom I'm very, very even, and we're pushing each other each weekend as much as we can, helping to develop the car, and having a healthy situation in general."[/QUOTE]
I seem to recall Webber saying something [i]very[/i] different...
[QUOTE]"I have absolutely no influence on it. I need someone with whom I'm very, very even, and we're pushing each other each weekend as much as we can, helping to develop the car, and having a healthy situation in general."[/QUOTE]
| BillT | 08-06-2004 12:22 PM |
[QUOTE=Ferg]I seem to recall Webber saying something [i]very[/i] different...[/QUOTE]
I just read a small story from f1 racing and never really read any follow up. I would have a hard time imagining him (or really any other driver) publically stating that they would want subserviant teammate.
It looks like BAR is really going to fight this move so it should get interesting.
I just read a small story from f1 racing and never really read any follow up. I would have a hard time imagining him (or really any other driver) publically stating that they would want subserviant teammate.
It looks like BAR is really going to fight this move so it should get interesting.
| driggity | 08-06-2004 01:47 PM |
[QUOTE=AndyRoo]maybe williams > BAR as soon as they get rid of the walrus front nose? not sure, just a thought.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, its very possible that one of the major reasons for BAR's success this year has been the lack of performance of McLaren (until recently) and Williams.
This morning I was reading an article about the Bentley Le Mans cars and one of the statements made was that on the '02 car they had issues with the aerodynamics changing depending on the attitude of the car and how much more this made the drivers work. When reading that I couldn't help but think about the Williams cars and how the announcers have been repeatedly talking about how much effort the drivers are putting into wrestling the car around the track. When Bentley got this fixed on the '03 car (of course along with numerous other changes) it supposedly made a big difference. It will be very interesting to see what the Williams car does with the normal nose on it. Does anyone know if there are going to be big changes to the car at Hungary other than the nose?
Yeah, its very possible that one of the major reasons for BAR's success this year has been the lack of performance of McLaren (until recently) and Williams.
This morning I was reading an article about the Bentley Le Mans cars and one of the statements made was that on the '02 car they had issues with the aerodynamics changing depending on the attitude of the car and how much more this made the drivers work. When reading that I couldn't help but think about the Williams cars and how the announcers have been repeatedly talking about how much effort the drivers are putting into wrestling the car around the track. When Bentley got this fixed on the '03 car (of course along with numerous other changes) it supposedly made a big difference. It will be very interesting to see what the Williams car does with the normal nose on it. Does anyone know if there are going to be big changes to the car at Hungary other than the nose?
| skuttledude | 08-06-2004 02:08 PM |
(Dave Richards) "We are absolutely astounded to hear that Jenson thinks that he is leaving BAR for Williams next season. Neither myself, nor any other member of the BAR team, has been contacted by Jenson to discuss this matter."
"Jenson is under contract with BAR for 2005, since we took up an option on his services only last month. At no time during the last few months has Jenson expressed anything other than his desire to continue working with BAR to achieve our collective goal of winning the World Championship."
Sounded like somebody made a story up yesterday...
In going with a rumour....
Did you hear that Jeff Gordon secretly signed with the other seat at Williams? :)
"Jenson is under contract with BAR for 2005, since we took up an option on his services only last month. At no time during the last few months has Jenson expressed anything other than his desire to continue working with BAR to achieve our collective goal of winning the World Championship."
Sounded like somebody made a story up yesterday...
In going with a rumour....
Did you hear that Jeff Gordon secretly signed with the other seat at Williams? :)
| driggity | 08-06-2004 02:40 PM |
I don't know about a rumor or made up story considering that Williams is claiming to have signed him. It sounds like a misunderstanding on someone's part of the legalese in the Button's contract.
| artkevin | 08-06-2004 03:46 PM |
Arrrrgggh!
Mika Hakkienen has now been linked to the BAR seat if Button does leave. He said there is "no smoke without fire" when asked about a deal that has reportedly already been signed. This is just getting stupid!
Mika Hakkienen has now been linked to the BAR seat if Button does leave. He said there is "no smoke without fire" when asked about a deal that has reportedly already been signed. This is just getting stupid!
| BriDrive | 08-06-2004 04:11 PM |
It should not be THAT surprising.
Williams has basically owned Button since 2000. The teams he has subsequently raced for have signed annual renewable contracts taken on options from Williams.
The teams that have hired Button must certainly know who Williams has driving for them at any given time and what their particular contracts run through for those drivers, as to not know this, is taking a gamble on Button if your strategy was long term development. Williams reserved the right, through contract, to call on Jenson at will....other gentlemenly agreements aside of course.
A. Davidson would be a good call for BAR. He is ready, has speed, has relationship with team and mechanics, he's smart and now has a year's worth of F1 mileage on the circuits under his belt.
I see Jean Carlo Fisichella going to Renault to replace Trulli...we may see Trulli in a Toyota.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Mika H. show up at McLaren for a one year deal.
BriDrive
Williams has basically owned Button since 2000. The teams he has subsequently raced for have signed annual renewable contracts taken on options from Williams.
The teams that have hired Button must certainly know who Williams has driving for them at any given time and what their particular contracts run through for those drivers, as to not know this, is taking a gamble on Button if your strategy was long term development. Williams reserved the right, through contract, to call on Jenson at will....other gentlemenly agreements aside of course.
A. Davidson would be a good call for BAR. He is ready, has speed, has relationship with team and mechanics, he's smart and now has a year's worth of F1 mileage on the circuits under his belt.
I see Jean Carlo Fisichella going to Renault to replace Trulli...we may see Trulli in a Toyota.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Mika H. show up at McLaren for a one year deal.
BriDrive
| jetfan2207 | 08-06-2004 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers](Dave Richards)
"Jenson is under contract with BAR for 2005, since we took up an option on his services only last month.
:)[/QUOTE]
Even if Jenson had to stay because of his contract, would you still want him to drive? I mean, he wouldn't try as much (his heart is apparently with Williams), they should let him go, hire a new driver (DC please), use all of the off season to get the car set up for him, then kick Williams' butt in 05. Why would they waste time by spending all of next year to trying to get to the top just to loose the driver at the end of the season?
Steve
"Jenson is under contract with BAR for 2005, since we took up an option on his services only last month.
:)[/QUOTE]
Even if Jenson had to stay because of his contract, would you still want him to drive? I mean, he wouldn't try as much (his heart is apparently with Williams), they should let him go, hire a new driver (DC please), use all of the off season to get the car set up for him, then kick Williams' butt in 05. Why would they waste time by spending all of next year to trying to get to the top just to loose the driver at the end of the season?
Steve
| Ferg | 08-06-2004 04:23 PM |
Button Speaks!
[QUOTE]Jenson Button has spoken publicly for the first time since the news broke yesterday that he plans to leave BAR-Honda at the end of this season to join BMW Williams. Amid intense legal debate over the legitimacy of his decision, and whether or not he can be released from his contract, Button unequivocally told BBC Five Live that he wants to drive for Williams in 2005.
In the last few hours, BAR has even issued an ultimatum to Button's management company Essentially Sport, requiring him to attend a face-to-face meeting with BAR's management, by close of business Monday, or face immediate action to enforce BAR's contract with him. But despite all this, Button's mind seems set on a return to the team that introduced him to F1 nearly four years ago.
�I'm going to be driving for BMW Williams,� he said. �I can't give any information away. I'm not a legal expert, but based on the information I have I am able to drive a BMW Williams car next year.
�Formula 1 is not just about this season. I need to look into the future and to me the resources at BMW and Williams are fantastic and they are a team that will be challenging for the world championship next year. That is really what I want and what I need.�
Button has admitted that he expects the jovial atmosphere in the BAR pit to disappear but says he had to put his ambition to become a world champion before all other considerations: �It's difficult you know, things do change in F1. For me, my main aim is to be world champion and I want to challenge Michael Schumacher for the world championship in the next few years. To do that I think Williams is the best team.
�The resources at BMW and Williams are far greater than most teams on the grid. It's the team that brought me into F1 and I know how they work. Also having Mark [Webber] as team-mate there will make us a very strong team.�
Button says he believes he has fulfilled his role with BAR and says he wants to move to a place where he reckons will give him a genuine crack at the world title, even despite the fact that his current team is nearly 30 points ahead of Williams in the Contructors' Championship standings.
�My commitment was there [BAR] for the last two years,� he said. �That was my contract and I have fulfilled that. They have been a great team. A really good team to work with and I have enjoyed every moment with them, good and bad. It's been very exciting and obviously for the rest of the year I am still going to fulfil my contract.
�The atmosphere is going to be a bit different from the start of the season obviously, but these things do happen. This is an opening that we can use to move to BMW Williams, and I think that team will be the team to be with in the future. Obviously as I said, BAR have done a great job and I've enjoyed working with them.�[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Jenson Button has spoken publicly for the first time since the news broke yesterday that he plans to leave BAR-Honda at the end of this season to join BMW Williams. Amid intense legal debate over the legitimacy of his decision, and whether or not he can be released from his contract, Button unequivocally told BBC Five Live that he wants to drive for Williams in 2005.
In the last few hours, BAR has even issued an ultimatum to Button's management company Essentially Sport, requiring him to attend a face-to-face meeting with BAR's management, by close of business Monday, or face immediate action to enforce BAR's contract with him. But despite all this, Button's mind seems set on a return to the team that introduced him to F1 nearly four years ago.
�I'm going to be driving for BMW Williams,� he said. �I can't give any information away. I'm not a legal expert, but based on the information I have I am able to drive a BMW Williams car next year.
�Formula 1 is not just about this season. I need to look into the future and to me the resources at BMW and Williams are fantastic and they are a team that will be challenging for the world championship next year. That is really what I want and what I need.�
Button has admitted that he expects the jovial atmosphere in the BAR pit to disappear but says he had to put his ambition to become a world champion before all other considerations: �It's difficult you know, things do change in F1. For me, my main aim is to be world champion and I want to challenge Michael Schumacher for the world championship in the next few years. To do that I think Williams is the best team.
�The resources at BMW and Williams are far greater than most teams on the grid. It's the team that brought me into F1 and I know how they work. Also having Mark [Webber] as team-mate there will make us a very strong team.�
Button says he believes he has fulfilled his role with BAR and says he wants to move to a place where he reckons will give him a genuine crack at the world title, even despite the fact that his current team is nearly 30 points ahead of Williams in the Contructors' Championship standings.
�My commitment was there [BAR] for the last two years,� he said. �That was my contract and I have fulfilled that. They have been a great team. A really good team to work with and I have enjoyed every moment with them, good and bad. It's been very exciting and obviously for the rest of the year I am still going to fulfil my contract.
�The atmosphere is going to be a bit different from the start of the season obviously, but these things do happen. This is an opening that we can use to move to BMW Williams, and I think that team will be the team to be with in the future. Obviously as I said, BAR have done a great job and I've enjoyed working with them.�[/QUOTE]
| Ferg | 08-06-2004 07:15 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]Arrrrgggh!
Mika Hakkienen has now been linked to the BAR seat if Button does leave. He said there is "no smoke without fire" when asked about a deal that has reportedly already been signed. This is just getting stupid![/QUOTE]
More on that...
[QUOTE]Retired double world champion Mika Hakkinen is the first driver to have been linked with BAR-Honda, less than 24 hours after news broke of Jenson Button's controversial departure to Williams.
BAR team boss David Richards is insisting that the Englishman remains contracted to BAR for 2005 and is prepared to fight for his services. Nevertheless reports in the Finnish press have suggested that Hakkinen is a guest of the Prodrive boss at this weekend's 1000 Lakes Rally in Finland.
One of several drivers to have been linked with the second Williams seat alongside the confirmed Mark Webber, Hakkinen is known to be seriously considering an F1 comeback in 2005.
When questioned by the Finnish press on the subject Hakkinen would not deny his interest. �There is no smoke without fire,� he told Finland's national broadcaster YLE. "At this moment I do not want to comment more on the issue, especially as discussions around the BAR team are so hot.�
Hakkinen has outstanding contractual commitments to McLaren, which could preclude him from testing for any other team until January. But Ron Dennis, during the British Grand Prix, made it clear that he had no objections to Mika returning to F1 with another team.
A McLaren spokesperson today reiterated the team's stance: �As we have previously stated, despite various contractual agreements we may have with Mika, which we do not wish to discuss, it would not be our intention to stand in Mika's way.�[/QUOTE]
Mika Hakkienen has now been linked to the BAR seat if Button does leave. He said there is "no smoke without fire" when asked about a deal that has reportedly already been signed. This is just getting stupid![/QUOTE]
More on that...
[QUOTE]Retired double world champion Mika Hakkinen is the first driver to have been linked with BAR-Honda, less than 24 hours after news broke of Jenson Button's controversial departure to Williams.
BAR team boss David Richards is insisting that the Englishman remains contracted to BAR for 2005 and is prepared to fight for his services. Nevertheless reports in the Finnish press have suggested that Hakkinen is a guest of the Prodrive boss at this weekend's 1000 Lakes Rally in Finland.
One of several drivers to have been linked with the second Williams seat alongside the confirmed Mark Webber, Hakkinen is known to be seriously considering an F1 comeback in 2005.
When questioned by the Finnish press on the subject Hakkinen would not deny his interest. �There is no smoke without fire,� he told Finland's national broadcaster YLE. "At this moment I do not want to comment more on the issue, especially as discussions around the BAR team are so hot.�
Hakkinen has outstanding contractual commitments to McLaren, which could preclude him from testing for any other team until January. But Ron Dennis, during the British Grand Prix, made it clear that he had no objections to Mika returning to F1 with another team.
A McLaren spokesperson today reiterated the team's stance: �As we have previously stated, despite various contractual agreements we may have with Mika, which we do not wish to discuss, it would not be our intention to stand in Mika's way.�[/QUOTE]
| StuBeck | 08-06-2004 09:05 PM |
Does this remind anyone of the Adrian Newey mess a few years ago with him signing for Jaguar then unsigning a few days later?
And BillT, that article was [B]WALKER[/B] saying that Webber should have a teammate that is not as good as him, it wasn't Webber.
And BillT, that article was [B]WALKER[/B] saying that Webber should have a teammate that is not as good as him, it wasn't Webber.
| Ferg | 08-06-2004 10:05 PM |
[QUOTE=StuBeck]Does this remind anyone of the Adrian Newey mess a few years ago with him signing for Jaguar then unsigning a few days later?[/QUOTE]
I seem to recall reading somewhere after that disaster that Ron Dennis had convinced Newey not to leave McLaren by promising that he'd let Newey design a McLaren Group backed America's Cup challenger sometime in the future.
I seem to recall reading somewhere after that disaster that Ron Dennis had convinced Newey not to leave McLaren by promising that he'd let Newey design a McLaren Group backed America's Cup challenger sometime in the future.
| BillT | 08-07-2004 05:14 PM |
[QUOTE=StuBeck]Does this remind anyone of the Adrian Newey mess a few years ago with him signing for Jaguar then unsigning a few days later?
And BillT, that article was [B]WALKER[/B] saying that Webber should have a teammate that is not as good as him, it wasn't Webber.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification! I just skimmed over the story awhile back on F1 Racing-live and never thought of it again until hearing about Button.
I was just over in London a couple of weeks ago and if it does turn out that Button is leaving BAR then there will be big sale on Button/BAR merchanidise - of all the stores that I went to that carried F1 stuff, they had the most Button stuff followed closely by Ferrari merchandise.
And BillT, that article was [B]WALKER[/B] saying that Webber should have a teammate that is not as good as him, it wasn't Webber.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification! I just skimmed over the story awhile back on F1 Racing-live and never thought of it again until hearing about Button.
I was just over in London a couple of weeks ago and if it does turn out that Button is leaving BAR then there will be big sale on Button/BAR merchanidise - of all the stores that I went to that carried F1 stuff, they had the most Button stuff followed closely by Ferrari merchandise.
| gtguy | 08-10-2004 12:46 PM |
This story is getting ugly. BAR is putting its foot down, Ecclestone is saying that Button's Superlicense could be in jeopardy, as I understand it, simply because Button isn't "honorable," and the whole matter is going to the FIA's contract arbitration folks.
Williams says they have him, BAR says they have him, and there is no middle ground, at present. Though I'm sure a middle ground will evince itself, particularly if one Mika Hakkinen is really in the picture. Some possibilities are that BAR relents after a cash package from Williams, presuming BAR is found to have the valid contract. Then the rumor comes to fruition, BAR signs Hakkinen, and everyone is happy.
After all, Richards will NOT want a driver who doesn't want to be with the team, or more correctly, who wants to be with another team. Yes, that driver will be committed, but not at that ultimate level. That lack can cost tenths on the track.
Kevin
Williams says they have him, BAR says they have him, and there is no middle ground, at present. Though I'm sure a middle ground will evince itself, particularly if one Mika Hakkinen is really in the picture. Some possibilities are that BAR relents after a cash package from Williams, presuming BAR is found to have the valid contract. Then the rumor comes to fruition, BAR signs Hakkinen, and everyone is happy.
After all, Richards will NOT want a driver who doesn't want to be with the team, or more correctly, who wants to be with another team. Yes, that driver will be committed, but not at that ultimate level. That lack can cost tenths on the track.
Kevin
| TimStevens | 08-10-2004 02:45 PM |
Jeez, you go away for a week and the F1 silly season goes bonkers! This is bizarre, and a truly stupid move by Button IMHO. I know you have to be aggressive if you want to get to the top, but screwing over the folks who gave you a chance when Williams dumped you isn't a great idea. But, just the same, Button and Webber would make a great team.
And Mika Hakkinen coming back! :eek: Crazyness. Something tells me he'll be lacking speed if he does, though.
And Mika Hakkinen coming back! :eek: Crazyness. Something tells me he'll be lacking speed if he does, though.
| BriDrive | 08-10-2004 03:24 PM |
Jenson's taking the brunt of all this controversy, as well he should, however I'm afraid in actuality he is a victim. His management company are the real culprits here. They, embarassingly, had not done their homework....there are some attorneys to blame for not catching the superceding detail in " who really owns poor Jenson ".
Williams move was really an unusual but "win/win" long term contract with Jenson in 2000. At that time, Jenson was just a really promising young talent. When Williams decided on benching him for 2001, they could have just let Jenson test drive OR offer him up in a buyout to other takers. INSTEAD, they kept him AND allowed him to go race for others in the interim periods before his callback. Williams did not want to let him go, recognizing that he's a tremendous future asset. Perfect scenario for young Jenson and Williams. Jenson gets to go race, develop his experience curve, learn F1, work with engineers and all subsidized back to Williams. Each team was able to take out renewable annual options on Jenson's contract with Williams.
The stink of it is, Williams did not go out of their way to advertise this out loud everytime they turned around and still reserve the right to retain his services.
This will play out in the media and in the courts and each song will be different. But in the end, my money's on Williams if they truly want to pursue this. They appear to have the legal upper hand.
BriDrive
Williams move was really an unusual but "win/win" long term contract with Jenson in 2000. At that time, Jenson was just a really promising young talent. When Williams decided on benching him for 2001, they could have just let Jenson test drive OR offer him up in a buyout to other takers. INSTEAD, they kept him AND allowed him to go race for others in the interim periods before his callback. Williams did not want to let him go, recognizing that he's a tremendous future asset. Perfect scenario for young Jenson and Williams. Jenson gets to go race, develop his experience curve, learn F1, work with engineers and all subsidized back to Williams. Each team was able to take out renewable annual options on Jenson's contract with Williams.
The stink of it is, Williams did not go out of their way to advertise this out loud everytime they turned around and still reserve the right to retain his services.
This will play out in the media and in the courts and each song will be different. But in the end, my money's on Williams if they truly want to pursue this. They appear to have the legal upper hand.
BriDrive
| TimStevens | 08-11-2004 10:33 AM |
Anybody see this?
[url]http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=21923[/url]
Harsh...
[url]http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=21923[/url]
Harsh...
| AttaQ | 08-11-2004 11:32 AM |
Doesn't look like there is any point for him to even come back to BAR at all.... even for the rest of the season! They are beyond pissed!!!!!
| artkevin | 08-11-2004 12:50 PM |
Holly crap. Thats ruff. I agree with AttaQ, Jenson should just sit out and try not to piss anybody else off for the rest of the season.
| TimStevens | 08-11-2004 12:53 PM |
It is, alas, a p-shop. I didn't realize it either, but a friend pointed it out to me. There's a Bridgestone sign on the wall to the left. Oh well...
| artkevin | 08-11-2004 02:23 PM |
Damn, it looked good though. Good eyes to the friend. Man, Im a F1 dork.
| ShockWave | 08-11-2004 04:28 PM |
One thing that I am not hearing in the controversy, though I think someone here picked up on it, is the point that Jenson is moving from a rising BAR Honda to a floundering Williams BMW. I understand that Williams has a more solid track record, but let's look at the second part of that equation, Honda vs. BMW. I would say that Honda has had some success in F1, and in all honesty BMW has yet to come through. If Honda wants to get back at the front again after walking away, then I would say only the red prancing horses could possibly stand in their way. I think Jenson is making a big mistake outside all the legal wrangling.
Some other thoughts, I think Ecclestone saying that Jenson's superliscense can be revoked is him trying to steal the spotlight away. He hates it when he isn't the focus of attention. I doubt they would throw Jenson out. He's everything the F1 wonks want. He's young, fast, pretty, and (most important of all) British. F1 always has some need to have a Brit on the verge of greatness. Not accomplishing greatness, mind you. Being on the verge counts.
I think the F1 press is the voice pushing the idea of Hakkinen returning. They are desperate for someone, anyone, who can beat Schumey and they seem to think Hakkinen has the best chance. Before this quagmire there was talk of him joining Williams and before that Toyota and before that McLaren. I don't think he will back.
Some other thoughts, I think Ecclestone saying that Jenson's superliscense can be revoked is him trying to steal the spotlight away. He hates it when he isn't the focus of attention. I doubt they would throw Jenson out. He's everything the F1 wonks want. He's young, fast, pretty, and (most important of all) British. F1 always has some need to have a Brit on the verge of greatness. Not accomplishing greatness, mind you. Being on the verge counts.
I think the F1 press is the voice pushing the idea of Hakkinen returning. They are desperate for someone, anyone, who can beat Schumey and they seem to think Hakkinen has the best chance. Before this quagmire there was talk of him joining Williams and before that Toyota and before that McLaren. I don't think he will back.
| OnTheGas | 08-13-2004 01:56 AM |
Williams-BMW vs. BAR-Honda
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[QUOTE=ShockWave]...Jenson is moving from a rising BAR Honda to a floundering Williams BMW... Honda vs. BMW. I would say that Honda has had some success in F1, and in all honesty BMW has yet to come through.[/QUOTE]
I disagree... Jenson is probably wise to move from BAR-Honda to Williams-BMW for two good reasons:
First, in the [b]cubic dollars[/b] (Euros?) race, Williams is ahead of BAR. Bigger budgets, and bigger brain power means that a team can always pull themselves up the bootstraps... witness what McLaren did this year.
Whereas [b]a mid-field team like BAR[/b], who is benefitting from the unusual circumstance of designing their chassis last summer for the Bridgestone so-called narrow (read legal) front tire. At the same time, last summer all the Michelin teams designed their chassis for the wider tapering tire. Then came last years Hungary race, which was momentous for two reasons... the lesser reason was the Alonso won his first race. The earth-shaker at Hungary last year was that a Japanese photographer happened to shoot some pictures in the pits which showed how Michelin's front tires tapered to a wider tread width as they wore. FIA told Michelin that front tires will be inspected not only before the race, but from now on, after the race as well. Michelin showed up with legal front tires at the next GP, and Ferrari won that race, and every race since then, with the exception of this years Monaco.
So while BAR designed their chassis to run on legal width front tires, the other Michelin runners had designed their chassis to work better on wider front tires. My point is that this unusual advantage won't be seen next season. Next season will be very telling as to the strength of the BAR team.
Second, BMW vs. Honda... [b]BMW has been kicking Honda's butt all last season, and all this season[/b]. You may disagree, but keep in mind that the Williams chassis last season was not the best in the field, nor the second best, etc. BMW is said to have complained about providing arguably the stoutest motor in the field to Williams, only to see it wasted trying to push a slow chassis off of corners, giving up their primary advantage.
This season has seen BMW again at the top of the field, though the Ferrari is right with it, along with the Toyota. (But with a heavy, severly inefficient Toyota chassis, a great motor is wasted at Toyota.) While Honda's most recent steps are bringing them close to par, they spent last season as a weak link, and the first half of this season as the weak, and unreliable link of the team. The BAR chassis is perhaps better than the Renault, especially in the high speed stuff. So why isn't BAR in 2nd place in the contructors, behind Ferrari? The Honda motor has been the weak point.
So stability wise, budget wise, and depth of talent wise, Williams is a better team, and a wiser choice. If this were not true, Montoya would have been deciding between Dave Richards' BAR-Honda team, vs. Ron Dennis' McLaren-Mercedes team. But Montoya didn't consider BAR-Honda... From a Williams seat, to move laterally, he only considered Ferrari, (where you must have the #1 seat, which was not available), or McLaren.
You could be correct about Honda's motors dragging the BAR onto the top step of the podium over the next two seasons, but I'm thinking the depth of the Williams enineering talent pool, in combination with stoutness of the BMW motors, makes Jenson move the wise move.
I disagree... Jenson is probably wise to move from BAR-Honda to Williams-BMW for two good reasons:
First, in the [b]cubic dollars[/b] (Euros?) race, Williams is ahead of BAR. Bigger budgets, and bigger brain power means that a team can always pull themselves up the bootstraps... witness what McLaren did this year.
Whereas [b]a mid-field team like BAR[/b], who is benefitting from the unusual circumstance of designing their chassis last summer for the Bridgestone so-called narrow (read legal) front tire. At the same time, last summer all the Michelin teams designed their chassis for the wider tapering tire. Then came last years Hungary race, which was momentous for two reasons... the lesser reason was the Alonso won his first race. The earth-shaker at Hungary last year was that a Japanese photographer happened to shoot some pictures in the pits which showed how Michelin's front tires tapered to a wider tread width as they wore. FIA told Michelin that front tires will be inspected not only before the race, but from now on, after the race as well. Michelin showed up with legal front tires at the next GP, and Ferrari won that race, and every race since then, with the exception of this years Monaco.
So while BAR designed their chassis to run on legal width front tires, the other Michelin runners had designed their chassis to work better on wider front tires. My point is that this unusual advantage won't be seen next season. Next season will be very telling as to the strength of the BAR team.
Second, BMW vs. Honda... [b]BMW has been kicking Honda's butt all last season, and all this season[/b]. You may disagree, but keep in mind that the Williams chassis last season was not the best in the field, nor the second best, etc. BMW is said to have complained about providing arguably the stoutest motor in the field to Williams, only to see it wasted trying to push a slow chassis off of corners, giving up their primary advantage.
This season has seen BMW again at the top of the field, though the Ferrari is right with it, along with the Toyota. (But with a heavy, severly inefficient Toyota chassis, a great motor is wasted at Toyota.) While Honda's most recent steps are bringing them close to par, they spent last season as a weak link, and the first half of this season as the weak, and unreliable link of the team. The BAR chassis is perhaps better than the Renault, especially in the high speed stuff. So why isn't BAR in 2nd place in the contructors, behind Ferrari? The Honda motor has been the weak point.
So stability wise, budget wise, and depth of talent wise, Williams is a better team, and a wiser choice. If this were not true, Montoya would have been deciding between Dave Richards' BAR-Honda team, vs. Ron Dennis' McLaren-Mercedes team. But Montoya didn't consider BAR-Honda... From a Williams seat, to move laterally, he only considered Ferrari, (where you must have the #1 seat, which was not available), or McLaren.
You could be correct about Honda's motors dragging the BAR onto the top step of the podium over the next two seasons, but I'm thinking the depth of the Williams enineering talent pool, in combination with stoutness of the BMW motors, makes Jenson move the wise move.
| artkevin | 08-13-2004 09:27 AM |
I agree with you OnTheGas about it being a good move to go to Wiliams but I disagree about the tire war.
I think Ferrari/Bridgestone screwed all the Michelin runners with the FIAs help. There was a press confrence in Italy last year were Ross Brawn and Patrick Head had an extremely heated debate (Monza in the 2003 Formula 1 Review DVD). Head said the Michelin had been using the exact same mold since they first came into F1. So there had been literally hundreds of times to check the legality of them, which they were at the inception. The problem is that Michelin designed the tires to the rule, they were told that they would be measured before the race not before and after. After Ferrari got trounced in Hungary they pulled the trigger and called in the Mosley police. I think it is just a big joke. The tires had been legal for 4 years but the first race that Ferrari got embarassed all of the sudden they are illegal.
I think Ferrari/Bridgestone screwed all the Michelin runners with the FIAs help. There was a press confrence in Italy last year were Ross Brawn and Patrick Head had an extremely heated debate (Monza in the 2003 Formula 1 Review DVD). Head said the Michelin had been using the exact same mold since they first came into F1. So there had been literally hundreds of times to check the legality of them, which they were at the inception. The problem is that Michelin designed the tires to the rule, they were told that they would be measured before the race not before and after. After Ferrari got trounced in Hungary they pulled the trigger and called in the Mosley police. I think it is just a big joke. The tires had been legal for 4 years but the first race that Ferrari got embarassed all of the sudden they are illegal.
| OnTheGas | 08-13-2004 03:14 PM |
Re: The Legality of Michelin's Front Tires & FIA's Enforcement
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[QUOTE=artkevin]...The problem is that Michelin designed the tires to the rule, they were told that they would be measured before the race not before and after.[/QUOTE] No, Michelin did not design to the rules, otherwise both Michelin and Bridgestone would be running the wide tapering design tires today with FIA's blessings. Let's be honest, the tires were clearly illegal!
Michelin designed to the [b]enforcement[/b] of the rules, which is different from designing strictly to the rules.
[QUOTE=artkevin]...After Ferrari got trounced in Hungary they pulled the trigger... The tires had been legal for 4 years but the first race that Ferrari got embarassed all of the sudden they are illegal.[/QUOTE]Actually, in 2003, Ferrari was getting beat somewhat regularly, prior to Monza:[list][*]Australia = 4th[*]Malaysia = 2nd & 6th[*]Monaco = 3rd & 8th[*]Nurburgring = 3rd & 5th[*]France = 3rd & 7th[*]Germany = 7th[*]Hungary = 8th[/list]
If Ferrari or Bridgestone knew about the illegal Michelin design prior to Hungary, they would have informed FIA as soon as effing possible! Apparently Bridgestone informed FIA as soon as they realized what Michelin was doing, when they saw the photog's photos at the track at Hungaroring. Just like their competitors, Bridgestone and Ferrari are in F1 to win championships and grand prix, so there is no way that they would sit on knowledge of their opponents illegal equipment.
Michelin designed to the [b]enforcement[/b] of the rules, which is different from designing strictly to the rules.
[QUOTE=artkevin]...After Ferrari got trounced in Hungary they pulled the trigger... The tires had been legal for 4 years but the first race that Ferrari got embarassed all of the sudden they are illegal.[/QUOTE]Actually, in 2003, Ferrari was getting beat somewhat regularly, prior to Monza:[list][*]Australia = 4th[*]Malaysia = 2nd & 6th[*]Monaco = 3rd & 8th[*]Nurburgring = 3rd & 5th[*]France = 3rd & 7th[*]Germany = 7th[*]Hungary = 8th[/list]
If Ferrari or Bridgestone knew about the illegal Michelin design prior to Hungary, they would have informed FIA as soon as effing possible! Apparently Bridgestone informed FIA as soon as they realized what Michelin was doing, when they saw the photog's photos at the track at Hungaroring. Just like their competitors, Bridgestone and Ferrari are in F1 to win championships and grand prix, so there is no way that they would sit on knowledge of their opponents illegal equipment.
| artkevin | 08-13-2004 04:17 PM |
Bridgestone used narrow tires for the aero advantage. They were more narrow then the rules premitted so your argument of they would have gone as wide as possible does not hold water to me.
Getting beat and getting embarassed are 2 different things. 4th, 2nd and 3rd do not seem to be the same as geeting lapped by a Renualt.
The arguement of informing the FIA as soon as possible is not true either. Steve Matchet has said on many occasions tha Ferrari in particular like to wait until they have the absolute best advantage as possible to bring the FIAs attention to a possibly illegal situation. Why make a stink when you when the championship by the French race (2002). They would have gained nothing by playing their trump card in a dominant season.
I still do not admit that the tires were illegal when they were made. You can go back and look at old photos and tell they were the same size since they came into the sport. If they were illegal they should have been stopped 4 years ago, not when the Ferrari frieght train got slowed down. Michelin has proof that they never changed the mold and I can garuntee you that they would have been measured at some point before Hungary last year.
I do not think that what they did was illegal, I just believe that Ferrari use every advantage they can. You can't blame them but as the Austrian race of 2002 proved, it is not always the best thing to do for the sport or the public image of the sport.
Thats just my opinion. I love the sport more then any sane grown man should and I think watching a Ferrari circle the track is almost magical. I think that all of tthese politics just add depth to the sport. Again, anybody on this board gets more enjoyment out of the sport becuase it rewards knowledge.
KP
Getting beat and getting embarassed are 2 different things. 4th, 2nd and 3rd do not seem to be the same as geeting lapped by a Renualt.
The arguement of informing the FIA as soon as possible is not true either. Steve Matchet has said on many occasions tha Ferrari in particular like to wait until they have the absolute best advantage as possible to bring the FIAs attention to a possibly illegal situation. Why make a stink when you when the championship by the French race (2002). They would have gained nothing by playing their trump card in a dominant season.
I still do not admit that the tires were illegal when they were made. You can go back and look at old photos and tell they were the same size since they came into the sport. If they were illegal they should have been stopped 4 years ago, not when the Ferrari frieght train got slowed down. Michelin has proof that they never changed the mold and I can garuntee you that they would have been measured at some point before Hungary last year.
I do not think that what they did was illegal, I just believe that Ferrari use every advantage they can. You can't blame them but as the Austrian race of 2002 proved, it is not always the best thing to do for the sport or the public image of the sport.
Thats just my opinion. I love the sport more then any sane grown man should and I think watching a Ferrari circle the track is almost magical. I think that all of tthese politics just add depth to the sport. Again, anybody on this board gets more enjoyment out of the sport becuase it rewards knowledge.
KP
| StuBeck | 08-13-2004 04:30 PM |
Ferrari was also going for a championship. Up to that point, they hadn't been in trouble...then it was obvious that they might lose both spots. They played dirty tricks in Monza too. Ferrari Jr. (Sauber) had HHF block Montoya, give Montoya the win, and lets say Ralfie doesn't move out of the way when Schumi was going to fly into him at the final chicane in Japan...and Rikkonen is the champion.
The tires were not illegal either. If they have to be a certain width when they are new, and they are within that width, the tires are legal. If they get smaller or larger, it doesn't matter. Its the same thing with the weight of the car, teams can run below the 600kg limit during the race as long as they're at or above it at the end of the race.
I also don't see this as a stupid move by Button. Racing is not a sport where you have to be nice to get ahead. Look at Weber, he's doing the exact same thing as Button is, going to Williams 2 years into a 3 year contract, but Jaguar isn't putting up a fuss because they undertand their contracts.
And if Ecclestone wants to go into honour about contracts, he should take away Schumi's clause that he can choose his teammate.
The tires were not illegal either. If they have to be a certain width when they are new, and they are within that width, the tires are legal. If they get smaller or larger, it doesn't matter. Its the same thing with the weight of the car, teams can run below the 600kg limit during the race as long as they're at or above it at the end of the race.
I also don't see this as a stupid move by Button. Racing is not a sport where you have to be nice to get ahead. Look at Weber, he's doing the exact same thing as Button is, going to Williams 2 years into a 3 year contract, but Jaguar isn't putting up a fuss because they undertand their contracts.
And if Ecclestone wants to go into honour about contracts, he should take away Schumi's clause that he can choose his teammate.
| StuBeck | 08-13-2004 04:51 PM |
About the photochoped sign. The teams don't even have controll over it, its the people at the track that put them up. They misspelled Herberts name during his year at Stewart GP in Canada I think.
| artkevin | 08-13-2004 10:48 PM |
Well said StuBeck.
| OnTheGas | 08-14-2004 03:46 PM |
[QUOTE=artkevin]Bridgestone used narrow tires for the aero advantage. They were more narrow then the rules premitted so your argument of they would have gone as wide as possible does not hold water to me.[/QUOTE]By that logic, it would be faster if F1 cars ran on really thin tires.
By that logic, those crazy engineers at Michelin really screwed up by going for a wider footprint! They could have gained at least 2 or 3 tenths of a sec per lap but just running a narrower footprint!
By that logic, we should see many folks in other open wheel classes with less restrictive rules running the skinny little bicycle tires up front.
[QUOTE=artkevin]Getting beat and getting embarassed are 2 different things. 4th, 2nd and 3rd do not seem to be the same as geeting lapped by a Renualt.[/QUOTE]No, that is not correct. In F1, at the level that Ferrari is competing, getting beat and getting embarrassed are exactly the same thing.
If Ferrari finishes 2nd, they are deeply dissappointed. 2nd place is the first loser, as far as Ferrari is concerned. They have made that abundently clear in their actions through out the long history.
[QUOTE=artkevin]They would have gained nothing by playing their trump card in a dominant season.[/QUOTE]In 2003, they were never dominent... so why would they wait until it was nearly too late? Montoya and Kimi were both were in position to win the WDC at the last race.
[QUOTE=artkevin]I still do not admit that the tires were illegal when they were made... Michelin has proof that they never changed the mold and I can garuntee you that they would have been measured at some point before Hungary last year.[/QUOTE]OK, I don't understand why you would believe that Michelin's tires were legal, so I'm gonna need your help to understand that belief.
In particular, here are three questions I have:[list][*]If the Michelin tires were legal, then why would FIA announce that they were going to inspect the used tires (instead of only when new), starting with the Italian GP of 2003?
[*]If the tires were legal, then didn't Bridgestone change to Michelin's design for the 2003 Italian GP?
[*]If the tires were legal, then why did Michelin change their design quickly for the 2003 Italian GP?[/list]
By that logic, those crazy engineers at Michelin really screwed up by going for a wider footprint! They could have gained at least 2 or 3 tenths of a sec per lap but just running a narrower footprint!
By that logic, we should see many folks in other open wheel classes with less restrictive rules running the skinny little bicycle tires up front.
[QUOTE=artkevin]Getting beat and getting embarassed are 2 different things. 4th, 2nd and 3rd do not seem to be the same as geeting lapped by a Renualt.[/QUOTE]No, that is not correct. In F1, at the level that Ferrari is competing, getting beat and getting embarrassed are exactly the same thing.
If Ferrari finishes 2nd, they are deeply dissappointed. 2nd place is the first loser, as far as Ferrari is concerned. They have made that abundently clear in their actions through out the long history.
[QUOTE=artkevin]They would have gained nothing by playing their trump card in a dominant season.[/QUOTE]In 2003, they were never dominent... so why would they wait until it was nearly too late? Montoya and Kimi were both were in position to win the WDC at the last race.
[QUOTE=artkevin]I still do not admit that the tires were illegal when they were made... Michelin has proof that they never changed the mold and I can garuntee you that they would have been measured at some point before Hungary last year.[/QUOTE]OK, I don't understand why you would believe that Michelin's tires were legal, so I'm gonna need your help to understand that belief.
In particular, here are three questions I have:[list][*]If the Michelin tires were legal, then why would FIA announce that they were going to inspect the used tires (instead of only when new), starting with the Italian GP of 2003?
[*]If the tires were legal, then didn't Bridgestone change to Michelin's design for the 2003 Italian GP?
[*]If the tires were legal, then why did Michelin change their design quickly for the 2003 Italian GP?[/list]
| artkevin | 08-14-2004 06:05 PM |
[QUOTE]By that logic, we should see many folks in other open wheel classes with less restrictive rules running the skinny little bicycle tires up front.[/QUOTE]
Remeber the cars of the 70's. Fan cars. Huge wings. Little rules to say what you could and could not run? Remeber the rires that they ran. Littlle skinny ones up front and huge fattys in the back? CART cars do run on thin tires...up front...what has always been in question.
What I am saying is that the 2 companies used different design philosophies. By your argument a team running a twin keel design is just wrong. No, they are just takng a different route to get to the same point. A fast car.
[QUOTE]No, that is not correct. In F1, at the level that Ferrari is competing, getting beat and getting embarrassed are exactly the same thing.
[/QUOTE]
I got to disagree with you there too. I think that Ferrari was waiting to see what happened and how the year turned out. I don't think they took the Michelin runners seriously until the Hungarian GP. Their ultimate goal is to win the World Constructors championship and then the drivers title. When it got close they piped up about the tire thing. What did hey have to gain by diclosing this early and what did they have to lose by waiting until it but Michelin on their heels. Nothing.
[QUOTE]In particular, here are three questions I have:
If the Michelin tires were legal, then why would FIA announce that they were going to inspect the used tires (instead of only when new), starting with the Italian GP of 2003?
If the tires were legal, then didn't Bridgestone change to Michelin's design for the 2003 Italian GP?
If the tires were legal, then why did Michelin change their design quickly for the 2003 Italian GP?[/QUOTE]
I think that the tires were DEAMED illegal. I do not believe that under the law or the spirit of the law were they illegal before there was a complaint. Michelin changed their design so quickly becuase they had to. What would you do after the FIA determined one of your items was illegal and to take it off? Wait and fight it out in the courts while your cars sit on blocks or change it and do the best you could? Why don't you just ask BAR about the active torque distributor?
KP
Remeber the cars of the 70's. Fan cars. Huge wings. Little rules to say what you could and could not run? Remeber the rires that they ran. Littlle skinny ones up front and huge fattys in the back? CART cars do run on thin tires...up front...what has always been in question.
What I am saying is that the 2 companies used different design philosophies. By your argument a team running a twin keel design is just wrong. No, they are just takng a different route to get to the same point. A fast car.
[QUOTE]No, that is not correct. In F1, at the level that Ferrari is competing, getting beat and getting embarrassed are exactly the same thing.
[/QUOTE]
I got to disagree with you there too. I think that Ferrari was waiting to see what happened and how the year turned out. I don't think they took the Michelin runners seriously until the Hungarian GP. Their ultimate goal is to win the World Constructors championship and then the drivers title. When it got close they piped up about the tire thing. What did hey have to gain by diclosing this early and what did they have to lose by waiting until it but Michelin on their heels. Nothing.
[QUOTE]In particular, here are three questions I have:
If the Michelin tires were legal, then why would FIA announce that they were going to inspect the used tires (instead of only when new), starting with the Italian GP of 2003?
If the tires were legal, then didn't Bridgestone change to Michelin's design for the 2003 Italian GP?
If the tires were legal, then why did Michelin change their design quickly for the 2003 Italian GP?[/QUOTE]
I think that the tires were DEAMED illegal. I do not believe that under the law or the spirit of the law were they illegal before there was a complaint. Michelin changed their design so quickly becuase they had to. What would you do after the FIA determined one of your items was illegal and to take it off? Wait and fight it out in the courts while your cars sit on blocks or change it and do the best you could? Why don't you just ask BAR about the active torque distributor?
KP
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