| makofoto | 08-15-2006 01:18 PM |
Driving, Subconsciously, etc. :-)
�
�
The best and fastest Mod is Seat Time. To get to Xxxxx, Xxxx and Xxxx's (names altered so that they don't get even Bigger Heads! :-) level you need to be able to drive using your sub-conscious. YOU can't think fast enough to stay ahead of your car otherwise. Your Conscious Mind (should) look ahead for red flags, down cones, etc. ... and will intervene when necessary ... but it's only your Sub-Conscious Mind that can really drive the car fast. When you ask XXX XXXXXXXXX how he does it ... he will tell you he thinks about how nice the sky is. He isn't thinking about the corner that he's negotiating. The Analytical mind is just to slow. That's why after a run you need to take the time to review your run. It's also why it's hard for the smart engineering types to be really fast for a while. They need to give up their overt thinking and just let it happen!
But first you need a lot of SEAT TIME to imprint so your sub-conscious knows what to do. You need to get comfortable with your car and set-up. That's why it helps to settle your set-up. And you need to know the course ... otherwise your conscious mind has to take over. Experience helps with learning a course quickly, because you will recognize certain gate/corner/cone combinations ... but as you can see from last Saturdays event, all of Xxx's experience didn't help him enough to win ... after not really walking the course, nor really knowing Xxxxx's car.
The all crucial Looking Ahead becomes easier and easier as your sub-conscious learns to take over the actual driving functions. Looking Ahead gives your sub-conscious the road map to do it's thing.
So again ... Seat Time is what makes one really fast. Of course, not spending enough time with the family can also stop your auto crossing in it's tracks. :-)
Still openings for the Double Practice this weekend at CA Speedway. See links below.
$60/day ...
http://www.solo2.com/eventpage.asp?eid={0050AC84-4453-453F-A087-11A6D0E9FB62}
http://www.solo2.com/eventpage.asp?eid={0A58782A-B6DE-418F-B0B9-44009B4A60C3}
But first you need a lot of SEAT TIME to imprint so your sub-conscious knows what to do. You need to get comfortable with your car and set-up. That's why it helps to settle your set-up. And you need to know the course ... otherwise your conscious mind has to take over. Experience helps with learning a course quickly, because you will recognize certain gate/corner/cone combinations ... but as you can see from last Saturdays event, all of Xxx's experience didn't help him enough to win ... after not really walking the course, nor really knowing Xxxxx's car.
The all crucial Looking Ahead becomes easier and easier as your sub-conscious learns to take over the actual driving functions. Looking Ahead gives your sub-conscious the road map to do it's thing.
So again ... Seat Time is what makes one really fast. Of course, not spending enough time with the family can also stop your auto crossing in it's tracks. :-)
Still openings for the Double Practice this weekend at CA Speedway. See links below.
$60/day ...
http://www.solo2.com/eventpage.asp?eid={0050AC84-4453-453F-A087-11A6D0E9FB62}
http://www.solo2.com/eventpage.asp?eid={0A58782A-B6DE-418F-B0B9-44009B4A60C3}
| rt4me | 08-15-2006 01:44 PM |
Related to the subconscious driving, I read a book called Speed Secrets 3 that deals with the mental aspects of performance driving. Found it helpful and put into words what was happening during those runs I�ve had where it seemed like I was on auto-pilot.
[URL=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0760308349/sr=1-1/qid=1155663695/ref=sr_1_1/104-4400653-1513558?ie=UTF8&s=books]Speed Secrets 3[/URL]
[URL=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0760308349/sr=1-1/qid=1155663695/ref=sr_1_1/104-4400653-1513558?ie=UTF8&s=books]Speed Secrets 3[/URL]
| leecea | 08-15-2006 05:45 PM |
I'm not sure what all this is about! Practice anything and the mechanics of it become second nature, allowing you to concentrate on other aspects of the sport or activity. Plus, every sport is as much mental as it is physical. Autox is no different.
| Kostamojen | 08-15-2006 06:03 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]I'm not sure what all this is about! Practice anything and the mechanics of it become second nature, allowing you to concentrate on other aspects of the sport or activity. Plus, every sport is as much mental as it is physical. Autox is no different.[/QUOTE]
Instinct -> Belief -> Knowledge -> Understanding
Instinct -> Belief -> Knowledge -> Understanding
| bjorn240 | 08-15-2006 06:03 PM |
Any rally driver who tells me how nice the sky is, I'll kick his ass so hard he won't be able to swallow. What a load of nonsense.
| Mykl | 08-15-2006 06:44 PM |
There's something to this, although it's difficult to explain or even talk about.
I think the core of this discussion is how refined a given driver's instincts are. But you can only refine those instincts by practicing, studying, and thinking.
When I ran track and field in high school I can definitely say that visualization and other psychological techniques made me a much better performer at my chosen event.
I think the core of this discussion is how refined a given driver's instincts are. But you can only refine those instincts by practicing, studying, and thinking.
When I ran track and field in high school I can definitely say that visualization and other psychological techniques made me a much better performer at my chosen event.
| ChrisL2 | 08-15-2006 07:20 PM |
The best I've ever done at an autocross is when I was actually pretty sleepy because I worked a 12 hour shift the night before and went straight to the autocross from work.
| KC | 08-15-2006 09:21 PM |
[QUOTE=Mykl]I think the core of this discussion is how refined a given driver's instincts are. But you can only refine those instincts by practicing, studying, and thinking.[/QUOTE]
The core of the message isn't a discussion, it's an advertisment for the SoCal double practice with a big front sell.
[QUOTE]So again ... Seat Time is what makes one really fast. Of course, not spending enough time with the family can also stop your auto crossing in it's tracks. :-)
Still openings for the Double Practice this weekend at CA Speedway. See links below.[/QUOTE]
Mako stated everything as fact... therefore, there is no discussion to be had or he would have offered points to ponder. If it were truly a discussion, there would have been questions in the 1st post... and there are none... zero... zilch.
And if it were something that would have been truly thought provoking, there wouldn't have been an advertisement at the end for the region he runs with. :)
--kC
(Hates preachy advertising.... get to the point already. Too many words to read.)
The core of the message isn't a discussion, it's an advertisment for the SoCal double practice with a big front sell.
[QUOTE]So again ... Seat Time is what makes one really fast. Of course, not spending enough time with the family can also stop your auto crossing in it's tracks. :-)
Still openings for the Double Practice this weekend at CA Speedway. See links below.[/QUOTE]
Mako stated everything as fact... therefore, there is no discussion to be had or he would have offered points to ponder. If it were truly a discussion, there would have been questions in the 1st post... and there are none... zero... zilch.
And if it were something that would have been truly thought provoking, there wouldn't have been an advertisement at the end for the region he runs with. :)
--kC
(Hates preachy advertising.... get to the point already. Too many words to read.)
| solo-x | 08-15-2006 09:26 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]The core of the message isn't a discussion, it's an advertisment for the SoCal double practice with a big front sell.
--kC[/QUOTE]
:lol:
teh old man sees right through...
--kC[/QUOTE]
:lol:
teh old man sees right through...
| BlkWRXWag | 08-15-2006 09:27 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]The core of the message isn't a discussion, it's an advertisment for the SoCal double practice with a big front sell.[/QUOTE]
You wanna come KC?:D
You wanna come KC?:D
| KC | 08-15-2006 09:27 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]You wanna come KC?:D[/QUOTE]
You know I do! I wanna see who Xxx or Xxxx is and maybe learn something from them! :lol:
EDIT: Oh wait... can't. I have a car to win this weekend when I beat Jason at RevItUp. :devil:
You know I do! I wanna see who Xxx or Xxxx is and maybe learn something from them! :lol:
EDIT: Oh wait... can't. I have a car to win this weekend when I beat Jason at RevItUp. :devil:
| BlkWRXWag | 08-15-2006 09:34 PM |
Well, the top three are local Subaru drivers and the "looking at the sky" person is a multi-National champ.
Three of the four will be in Topeka:D
Three of the four will be in Topeka:D
| KC | 08-15-2006 09:46 PM |
[QUOTE=BlkWRXWag]Well, the top three are local Subaru drivers and the "looking at the sky" person is a multi-National champ.
Three of the four will be in Topeka:D[/QUOTE]
Who pussied out? :D
Three of the four will be in Topeka:D[/QUOTE]
Who pussied out? :D
| BlkWRXWag | 08-15-2006 10:06 PM |
I'm saying nothing more:)
In Mako's defense, he is just trying to drum up some interest amongst the Subaru crowd for a woefully undersubscribed practice this weekend. People always complain that they cannot get enough seat time in the crowded SoCal area, and here is a wonderful opportunity.
In Mako's defense, he is just trying to drum up some interest amongst the Subaru crowd for a woefully undersubscribed practice this weekend. People always complain that they cannot get enough seat time in the crowded SoCal area, and here is a wonderful opportunity.
| Mykl | 08-15-2006 11:04 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]The core of the message isn't a discussion, it's an advertisment for the SoCal double practice with a big front sell.
[/QUOTE]
Sure... maybe it should have been posted in the appropriate regional forum.
[/QUOTE]
Sure... maybe it should have been posted in the appropriate regional forum.
| makofoto | 08-15-2006 11:08 PM |
Great Idea ... hahaha NEVER would have thought of that. ;)
| makofoto | 08-16-2006 12:34 AM |
[QUOTE]Mako stated everything as fact... therefore, there is no discussion to be had or he would have offered points to ponder. If it were truly a discussion, there would have been questions in the 1st post... and there are none... zero... zilch.[/QUOTE]
Mako Facts !? Meaningless ... tear it apart. :D
Interesting comment by Travis's co-pilot ... yeah ... how does my comments about "sub conscious" driving apply to Rally Driving?
There are of course numerous articles, books, etc. about "sub conscious" driving and "Flow" in sports, etc. I became interested in the subject when I use to do competitive Olympic style pistol shooting. In this form of ultra precision shooting, you can't consciously pull the trigger. When you do shoot like that, you will always be behind. No one can truly hold still ... you have to use a one arm/hand hold ... so all of your conscious effort goes into trying to maintain sight alignment. The trigger pull happens automatically when your mind recognizes proper sight alignment. Of course the triggers are very light and you're parked right on triggers edge. Note ... this type of shooting has nothing to do with what Sortor does on weekends when he's not racing. At least he's got something that he can share with his wife. ;) :)
(We train with electronic sensors attached to our pistols ... that produce a trace on a virtual target ... so you can see how ... you CAN'T hold still. It also shows when you pull your shot because you "grabbed" the trigger.)
Mako Facts !? Meaningless ... tear it apart. :D
Interesting comment by Travis's co-pilot ... yeah ... how does my comments about "sub conscious" driving apply to Rally Driving?
There are of course numerous articles, books, etc. about "sub conscious" driving and "Flow" in sports, etc. I became interested in the subject when I use to do competitive Olympic style pistol shooting. In this form of ultra precision shooting, you can't consciously pull the trigger. When you do shoot like that, you will always be behind. No one can truly hold still ... you have to use a one arm/hand hold ... so all of your conscious effort goes into trying to maintain sight alignment. The trigger pull happens automatically when your mind recognizes proper sight alignment. Of course the triggers are very light and you're parked right on triggers edge. Note ... this type of shooting has nothing to do with what Sortor does on weekends when he's not racing. At least he's got something that he can share with his wife. ;) :)
(We train with electronic sensors attached to our pistols ... that produce a trace on a virtual target ... so you can see how ... you CAN'T hold still. It also shows when you pull your shot because you "grabbed" the trigger.)
| Howl | 08-16-2006 08:47 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240]Any rally driver who tells me how nice the sky is, I'll kick his ass so hard he won't be able to swallow. What a load of nonsense.[/QUOTE]
I would assume that rally driving is a bit different from track driving in this regard. In theory, rally drivers are driving the roads unseen, so they need to use more of their conscious mind to deal with the unexpected elements. Still, a rally driver may be receiving information from the co-driver, watching as far up the road as possible, and avoiding immediate hazards such as rocks and bumps sub-consciously, while thinking about setting up the car for the next corner consciously.
I would assume that rally driving is a bit different from track driving in this regard. In theory, rally drivers are driving the roads unseen, so they need to use more of their conscious mind to deal with the unexpected elements. Still, a rally driver may be receiving information from the co-driver, watching as far up the road as possible, and avoiding immediate hazards such as rocks and bumps sub-consciously, while thinking about setting up the car for the next corner consciously.
| bjorn240 | 08-16-2006 09:27 AM |
I think you have a very tenuous grasp of the concept of consciousness. Just because something is learned well and performed innately as part of a larger action does not make is a "subconscious" action. The formal psychological definition of the "unconscious" is the part of consciousness of which a person is (or makes themself, if you prefer) unaware. (Subconscious is just a dumb pop-psych term...) In formalism, this would be linked to the Id (instincts) and Superego (formative norms).
So, unless you're claiming that heel-and-toeing is instinctual at the same level of pulling your hand away from flame, I think you're full of it. The idea that a driver heels-and-toes (or left foot brakes, or rev matches while double clutching), outside of his own awareness is beyond silly. Here's a simple test - ask the driver to describe the process. If he can describe it, he's conscious of it.
Ugh, psychology. Formalizing nonsense for 100 years.
- Christian
So, unless you're claiming that heel-and-toeing is instinctual at the same level of pulling your hand away from flame, I think you're full of it. The idea that a driver heels-and-toes (or left foot brakes, or rev matches while double clutching), outside of his own awareness is beyond silly. Here's a simple test - ask the driver to describe the process. If he can describe it, he's conscious of it.
Ugh, psychology. Formalizing nonsense for 100 years.
- Christian
| KC | 08-16-2006 10:04 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240]I think you have a very tenuous grasp of the concept of consciousness. Just because something is learned well and performed innately as part of a larger action does not make is a "subconscious" action. The formal psychological definition of the "unconscious" is the part of consciousness of which a person is (or makes themself, if you prefer) unaware. (Subconscious is just a dumb pop-psych term...) In formalism, this would be linked to the Id (instincts) and Superego (formative norms).
So, unless you're claiming that heel-and-toeing is instinctual at the same level of pulling your hand away from flame, I think you're full of it. The idea that a driver heels-and-toes (or left foot brakes, or rev matches while double clutching), outside of his own awareness is beyond silly. Here's a simple test - ask the driver to describe the process. If he can describe it, he's conscious of it.
Ugh, psychology. Formalizing nonsense for 100 years.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Much like the difference between an orange belt and a black belt. Both had to learn. Both start from knowing nothing.
One recognizes, processes and acts faster and more accurately than another. :)
The reaction speeds and accuracy at which they do things prevent some from reaching black belt proficiency. It's that drive within oneself that makes them try harder, to react quicker, to recognize better. Some are better (faster) than others at developing their skills. And to those on the outside looking in, they look at it as an amazing talent when... it's a learned skill.
--kC
So, unless you're claiming that heel-and-toeing is instinctual at the same level of pulling your hand away from flame, I think you're full of it. The idea that a driver heels-and-toes (or left foot brakes, or rev matches while double clutching), outside of his own awareness is beyond silly. Here's a simple test - ask the driver to describe the process. If he can describe it, he's conscious of it.
Ugh, psychology. Formalizing nonsense for 100 years.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Much like the difference between an orange belt and a black belt. Both had to learn. Both start from knowing nothing.
One recognizes, processes and acts faster and more accurately than another. :)
The reaction speeds and accuracy at which they do things prevent some from reaching black belt proficiency. It's that drive within oneself that makes them try harder, to react quicker, to recognize better. Some are better (faster) than others at developing their skills. And to those on the outside looking in, they look at it as an amazing talent when... it's a learned skill.
--kC
| rkkwan | 08-16-2006 01:05 PM |
I can drive subconsciously. Really.
One time driving in the middle of night on I-95 in CT, I was really really tired, and I couldn't remember what happened for maybe a mile or two. But I couldn't have fallen asleep (i.e. unconscious) as I had remained in my lane through the turns. [Those who've been on I-95 know there's no long straight section in CT.] Can't remember if I was using cruise or not, however.
Anyways, I don't know what this has to do with the discussion. Just want to share a story. :p
One time driving in the middle of night on I-95 in CT, I was really really tired, and I couldn't remember what happened for maybe a mile or two. But I couldn't have fallen asleep (i.e. unconscious) as I had remained in my lane through the turns. [Those who've been on I-95 know there's no long straight section in CT.] Can't remember if I was using cruise or not, however.
Anyways, I don't know what this has to do with the discussion. Just want to share a story. :p
| KC | 08-16-2006 01:11 PM |
[QUOTE=rkkwan]I can drive subconsciously. Really.
One time driving in the middle of night on I-95 in CT, I was really really tired, and I couldn't remember what happened for maybe a mile or two. But I couldn't have fallen asleep (i.e. unconscious) as I had remained in my lane through the turns. [Those who've been on I-95 know there's no long straight section in CT.] Can't remember if I was using cruise or not, however.
Anyways, I don't know what this has to do with the discussion. Just want to share a story. :p[/QUOTE]
And you may ask yourself... how did I get here?
And the days go by.
--kC
One time driving in the middle of night on I-95 in CT, I was really really tired, and I couldn't remember what happened for maybe a mile or two. But I couldn't have fallen asleep (i.e. unconscious) as I had remained in my lane through the turns. [Those who've been on I-95 know there's no long straight section in CT.] Can't remember if I was using cruise or not, however.
Anyways, I don't know what this has to do with the discussion. Just want to share a story. :p[/QUOTE]
And you may ask yourself... how did I get here?
And the days go by.
--kC
| Howl | 08-16-2006 01:31 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240]I think you have a very tenuous grasp of the concept of consciousness. Just because something is learned well and performed innately as part of a larger action does not make is a "subconscious" action. The formal psychological definition of the "unconscious" is the part of consciousness of which a person is (or makes themself, if you prefer) unaware. (Subconscious is just a dumb pop-psych term...) In formalism, this would be linked to the Id (instincts) and Superego (formative norms).
So, unless you're claiming that heel-and-toeing is instinctual at the same level of pulling your hand away from flame, I think you're full of it. The idea that a driver heels-and-toes (or left foot brakes, or rev matches while double clutching), outside of his own awareness is beyond silly. Here's a simple test - ask the driver to describe the process. If he can describe it, he's conscious of it.
Ugh, psychology. Formalizing nonsense for 100 years.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Well then you're just getting into semantics. Regardless of the formal psychological terminology, I was basing my comments on what I beleive was the OP's use of the word "sub-conscious"; which is: that part of the brain that handles the everyday, routine and reflex reactions, while the conscious brain is your main train-of-thought.
So, unless you're claiming that heel-and-toeing is instinctual at the same level of pulling your hand away from flame, I think you're full of it. The idea that a driver heels-and-toes (or left foot brakes, or rev matches while double clutching), outside of his own awareness is beyond silly. Here's a simple test - ask the driver to describe the process. If he can describe it, he's conscious of it.
Ugh, psychology. Formalizing nonsense for 100 years.
- Christian[/QUOTE]
Well then you're just getting into semantics. Regardless of the formal psychological terminology, I was basing my comments on what I beleive was the OP's use of the word "sub-conscious"; which is: that part of the brain that handles the everyday, routine and reflex reactions, while the conscious brain is your main train-of-thought.
| fantomrex24 | 08-16-2006 01:44 PM |
i agree about the subconscious driving. when your on the autoX course, things happen way too quickly for you to sit there & rationalize. your brain & body are following your eyes w/ the correct(well hopefully) & corresponding actions. i know whenever i play sports or drive i usually dont remember much from some of the best performances i do b/c its just reaction & not much thought. to put it simply.. "it just happens". so i do think theres something to that. but it also comes w/ practice & preperation. w/o those 2 things none of it could be possible. :banana: damn thats a happy unconscious banana!
late
brad
late
brad
| fantomrex24 | 08-16-2006 01:44 PM |
did i just write that?? lol haha jk.
late
brad
late
brad
| RallyCat66 | 08-16-2006 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240]Any rally driver who tells me how nice the sky is...[/QUOTE]
Why does the clip from [U]Buffum & Co.[/U] spring to mind? :lol: .
For those that don't know what I'm refering to...
JB and Vikki in the TR7 running coming through a left hander with a HUGE vista on the outside. JB comments "Nice view...". Vikki's response was cut from the audio track. :devil:
Why does the clip from [U]Buffum & Co.[/U] spring to mind? :lol: .
For those that don't know what I'm refering to...
JB and Vikki in the TR7 running coming through a left hander with a HUGE vista on the outside. JB comments "Nice view...". Vikki's response was cut from the audio track. :devil:
| bjorn240 | 08-16-2006 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE=Howl]Well then you're just getting into semantics. Regardless of the formal psychological terminology, I was basing my comments on what I beleive was the OP's use of the word "sub-conscious"; which is: that part of the brain that handles the everyday, routine and reflex reactions, while the conscious brain is your main train-of-thought.[/QUOTE]
By that logic, I type subconsciously, since I don't think about every individual keystroke. Call it semantics, but by that definition, every trained, oft-repeated activity is subconscious, which seems to render the definition itself meaningless.
But ok, if your definition of using your consciousness to drive being thinking, "I must now apply 24% throttle position," then I suppose you drive subconsciously. Whatever you might want that to mean.
- Christian
By that logic, I type subconsciously, since I don't think about every individual keystroke. Call it semantics, but by that definition, every trained, oft-repeated activity is subconscious, which seems to render the definition itself meaningless.
But ok, if your definition of using your consciousness to drive being thinking, "I must now apply 24% throttle position," then I suppose you drive subconsciously. Whatever you might want that to mean.
- Christian
| RB5 Clone | 08-16-2006 03:00 PM |
BCE--
you may be digging yourself a hole with the spade of semantics here.
I think they're talking about the kind of thought that helps adults ride a bike, even though the last time they did was in 8th grade. the kind of thought that tells drivers to countersteer BEFORE the car starts to react from a violent "GAAAK miss the rock" kind of input.
Dave G
Whose Ass Was Thoroughly Kicked at MFR for Beeping To Spectators During L4>3 o.c on Concord Pond (even though I was sawing at the wheel with one hand while beeping with the other) :huh:
you may be digging yourself a hole with the spade of semantics here.
I think they're talking about the kind of thought that helps adults ride a bike, even though the last time they did was in 8th grade. the kind of thought that tells drivers to countersteer BEFORE the car starts to react from a violent "GAAAK miss the rock" kind of input.
Dave G
Whose Ass Was Thoroughly Kicked at MFR for Beeping To Spectators During L4>3 o.c on Concord Pond (even though I was sawing at the wheel with one hand while beeping with the other) :huh:
| kursplat | 08-17-2006 01:00 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]And you may ask yourself... how did I get here?
And the days go by.
--kC[/QUOTE]by listening to too much talking heads.
so can we call it learned instinct ?
And the days go by.
--kC[/QUOTE]by listening to too much talking heads.
so can we call it learned instinct ?
| KC | 08-17-2006 07:58 AM |
[QUOTE=kursplat]by listening to too much talking heads.
so can we call it learned instinct ?[/QUOTE]
I still would hesitate to call it 'instint' in the strict definition of the term. Instinct is something that is biologically determined. You're born to react a certain way to certain stimuli... it's wired in your genes. IE: A lion instinctively knows to chase pray if it wants to survive. That's not something they're taught.
You're taught to listen to squealing tires. Certain pitches make it to the brain that tell the brain to unwind the wheel, or adjust braking/gas. The instinct portion is when the brain tells the hands/feet to move, because it's instinct to move those extermities... just as I type these words. However, 'by how much' and 'in what direction' are not instinct... you learn those over time, just like learning how to SPELL these words in English (just as I can't instincitvely type in Portugese or German because I haven't been taught how to do so). :) See the difference?
It's a learned "skill" that gets honed overtime by more seat time. As I said before, some learn faster than others, but everyone can be taught up to a certain point. Then it's up to that person if they have the predesposition to continue to develop.
--kC
(My brain hurts.)
so can we call it learned instinct ?[/QUOTE]
I still would hesitate to call it 'instint' in the strict definition of the term. Instinct is something that is biologically determined. You're born to react a certain way to certain stimuli... it's wired in your genes. IE: A lion instinctively knows to chase pray if it wants to survive. That's not something they're taught.
You're taught to listen to squealing tires. Certain pitches make it to the brain that tell the brain to unwind the wheel, or adjust braking/gas. The instinct portion is when the brain tells the hands/feet to move, because it's instinct to move those extermities... just as I type these words. However, 'by how much' and 'in what direction' are not instinct... you learn those over time, just like learning how to SPELL these words in English (just as I can't instincitvely type in Portugese or German because I haven't been taught how to do so). :) See the difference?
It's a learned "skill" that gets honed overtime by more seat time. As I said before, some learn faster than others, but everyone can be taught up to a certain point. Then it's up to that person if they have the predesposition to continue to develop.
--kC
(My brain hurts.)
| makofoto | 08-17-2006 11:40 AM |
If animals instinctively know to say hunt ... why is it that animals brought up in captivity can't be released into the wild because they don't know how to care for them selves. If they instinctively know what to do, then they can't be de-programed by our care in their formative months. And while snakes aren't taught to hunt by their mother, don't higher order animals like lions spend something like a year continuing their development by observing their parents? Just like junior AX'ers. :-)
| makofoto | 08-17-2006 11:43 AM |
btw. too late to send in checks to get into our weekend AX practice ... see Flyer Links in the first message. If you still want to get in, send Christine Berry an email. Contact her through solo2.com, Find Other Users at the top of the page.
| PKer | 08-17-2006 12:23 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Who pussied out? :D[/QUOTE]
:mad::mad::mad::mad:
Work Sucks!!!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad:
Work Sucks!!!!!
| KC | 08-17-2006 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=PKer]:mad::mad::mad::mad:
Work Sucks!!!!![/QUOTE]
[RIGHT][IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/fullmulletalchemist/nelson_ha_ha.jpg[/IMG][/RIGHT]
Sorry to hear that.
--kC
Work Sucks!!!!![/QUOTE]
[RIGHT][IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/fullmulletalchemist/nelson_ha_ha.jpg[/IMG][/RIGHT]
Sorry to hear that.
--kC
| Impreza01 | 08-17-2006 12:45 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]If animals instinctively know to say hunt ... why is it that animals brought up in captivity can't be released into the wild because they don't know how to care for them selves. If they instinctively know what to do, then they can't be de-programed by our care in their formative months. And while snakes aren't taught to hunt by their mother, don't higher order animals like lions spend something like a year continuing their development by observing their parents? Just like junior AX'ers. :-)[/QUOTE]
:huh: That doesn't even apply dude. Animals don't instinctively know how to hunt. If you ever watch the Discovery channel of animals growing up in the wild, you'll know for sure that hunting isn't instinctive.
As for your original post, I disagree. You can read the scientific journals, and you'll find the phenomena actually due to the "shortcutting" of neurons that make people because faster at things. When your muscles and nervous system become accustomed to something, say when dodging a punch or knowing to countersteer when the tail steps out, it's because either the neurons in your brain or your arm have started to form shortcuts so that instead of going from muscle to brain back to muscle, it just go muscle to muscle. For information processing, instead of see->think->react, the neurons in your brain might short cut to see->react. If it doesn't make sense, think about walking. People have to go through rehabilitation after years of not using it (due to coma or whatever) or from massive trauma. The reason is the "shortcut" neurons have died off.
:huh: That doesn't even apply dude. Animals don't instinctively know how to hunt. If you ever watch the Discovery channel of animals growing up in the wild, you'll know for sure that hunting isn't instinctive.
As for your original post, I disagree. You can read the scientific journals, and you'll find the phenomena actually due to the "shortcutting" of neurons that make people because faster at things. When your muscles and nervous system become accustomed to something, say when dodging a punch or knowing to countersteer when the tail steps out, it's because either the neurons in your brain or your arm have started to form shortcuts so that instead of going from muscle to brain back to muscle, it just go muscle to muscle. For information processing, instead of see->think->react, the neurons in your brain might short cut to see->react. If it doesn't make sense, think about walking. People have to go through rehabilitation after years of not using it (due to coma or whatever) or from massive trauma. The reason is the "shortcut" neurons have died off.
| PKer | 08-17-2006 12:52 PM |
[img]http://trivialpursuits.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cartman.jpg[/img]
Bite me.
Bite me.
| makofoto | 08-17-2006 12:52 PM |
KC was the one who was saying animals instinctively know how to hunt ... and most do (Animal Planet! :-) ... just not higher order mammals that continue to develop after birth.
I'll try to find the web site papers on Subconscious driving. This racer was developing a book ... but I don't think he every finished it.
I'll try to find the web site papers on Subconscious driving. This racer was developing a book ... but I don't think he every finished it.
| WRXedUSA | 08-17-2006 12:58 PM |
This thread confuses the hell out of me.
| KC | 08-17-2006 01:00 PM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01]:huh: That doesn't even apply dude. Animals don't instinctively know how to hunt. If you ever watch the Discovery channel of animals growing up in the wild, you'll know for sure that hunting isn't instinctive.
[/QUOTE]That was me. It's an instinct to know to hunt, to 'want' to hunt. It's primal.
They aren't taught 'to hunt' (instinctive). They are taught *HOW* to hunt (learned skill). Every animal needs to learn HOW to make use of their environment, their capabilities, to be successful AT hunting. Those that don't know the 'how' are either killed off because they will be a burdon on the pack, or left behind to fend for themselves. However, even those left behind WILL hunt, even if they don't know the best way to do it or score the big game... and will eventually wither and die. Just like the instinct... to run from prey (flee response). Animals that are good at this, survive, those that aren't good at this instinct, die.
See the difference?
Intelligence plays a big part in this, as it can override the instincts. The smarter the animal, the odds being they can override instinct (ie: mans instinct to s3x0r up every woman they meet is overridden through intelligence and social implications DUE to that inttelligence. S3x is an instinct in every animal on this planet.
--kC
[/QUOTE]That was me. It's an instinct to know to hunt, to 'want' to hunt. It's primal.
They aren't taught 'to hunt' (instinctive). They are taught *HOW* to hunt (learned skill). Every animal needs to learn HOW to make use of their environment, their capabilities, to be successful AT hunting. Those that don't know the 'how' are either killed off because they will be a burdon on the pack, or left behind to fend for themselves. However, even those left behind WILL hunt, even if they don't know the best way to do it or score the big game... and will eventually wither and die. Just like the instinct... to run from prey (flee response). Animals that are good at this, survive, those that aren't good at this instinct, die.
See the difference?
Intelligence plays a big part in this, as it can override the instincts. The smarter the animal, the odds being they can override instinct (ie: mans instinct to s3x0r up every woman they meet is overridden through intelligence and social implications DUE to that inttelligence. S3x is an instinct in every animal on this planet.
--kC
| crystalhelix | 08-17-2006 01:01 PM |
I think the good drivers have a lot of seat time in many different cars...
I think you can become complacent in your car...and get really good at driving it...stomp locally..
..hop into something else and you suck...so my goal is to get as much time in as many cars as I reasonably can because I feel I have already become one with my suby...I am looking to switch things up in a year or two to something not AWD with different characteristics.....like switching to an RX-8 or something...lol
I think you can become complacent in your car...and get really good at driving it...stomp locally..
..hop into something else and you suck...so my goal is to get as much time in as many cars as I reasonably can because I feel I have already become one with my suby...I am looking to switch things up in a year or two to something not AWD with different characteristics.....like switching to an RX-8 or something...lol
| grippgoat | 08-17-2006 01:04 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]KC was the one who was saying animals instinctively know how to hunt ... and most do (Animal Planet! :-) ... just not higher order mammals that continue to develop after birth.[/QUOTE]
From the department of reasonable comparisons...
What classifies as /not/ a higher-order mammal, and when's the last time you saw one win an olympic medal, or trophy at Nationals?
And to response to a comment Christian made before.... I can describe the process of walking, jumping, punching, kicking, throwing a baseball.... But that doesn't mean I have to think about it when I do it. Same with heel toe.
-Mike
From the department of reasonable comparisons...
What classifies as /not/ a higher-order mammal, and when's the last time you saw one win an olympic medal, or trophy at Nationals?
And to response to a comment Christian made before.... I can describe the process of walking, jumping, punching, kicking, throwing a baseball.... But that doesn't mean I have to think about it when I do it. Same with heel toe.
-Mike
| KC | 08-17-2006 01:09 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]From the department of reasonable comparisons...
What classifies as /not/ a higher-order mammal, and when's the last time you saw one win an olympic medal, or trophy at Nationals?
And to response to a comment Christian made before.... I can describe the process of walking, jumping, punching, kicking, throwing a baseball.... But that doesn't mean I have to think about it when I do it. Same with heel toe.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
But you do think about it. That's the point. It's just a process that's made faster over time as you develop the learned skill. Were you born with the knowledge to heel-toe? No you weren't. You had to be told. You have the insinct to move your feet as it's natural. The brain just processes stuff MUCH faster when you do things repeitively over time.
Think about the 1st time you tried typing on a keyboard. Today, how well do you do it? Accurately? :)
Your thought process may be different (through speed or pattern) but you still have to think to the nth degree that you have to do something, and THIS is what should be done (heel toe now, vs 10 feet from now). Etc...
Over time, it may seem that you're not thinking and just reacting 'instinctively' but that's not the case. You're just processing the data and implementing the actions much faster.... but you're still thinking about it. :)
Fast drivers spend much less time thinking of the repetitive actions (shifting/braking/gas) and more time thinking of the general picture, position, and surroundings, based on the feedback given from the components on the car.
--kC
What classifies as /not/ a higher-order mammal, and when's the last time you saw one win an olympic medal, or trophy at Nationals?
And to response to a comment Christian made before.... I can describe the process of walking, jumping, punching, kicking, throwing a baseball.... But that doesn't mean I have to think about it when I do it. Same with heel toe.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
But you do think about it. That's the point. It's just a process that's made faster over time as you develop the learned skill. Were you born with the knowledge to heel-toe? No you weren't. You had to be told. You have the insinct to move your feet as it's natural. The brain just processes stuff MUCH faster when you do things repeitively over time.
Think about the 1st time you tried typing on a keyboard. Today, how well do you do it? Accurately? :)
Your thought process may be different (through speed or pattern) but you still have to think to the nth degree that you have to do something, and THIS is what should be done (heel toe now, vs 10 feet from now). Etc...
Over time, it may seem that you're not thinking and just reacting 'instinctively' but that's not the case. You're just processing the data and implementing the actions much faster.... but you're still thinking about it. :)
Fast drivers spend much less time thinking of the repetitive actions (shifting/braking/gas) and more time thinking of the general picture, position, and surroundings, based on the feedback given from the components on the car.
--kC
| Impreza01 | 08-17-2006 01:16 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]That was me. It's an instinct to know to hunt, to 'want' to hunt. It's primal.
They aren't taught 'to hunt' (instinctive). They are taught *HOW* to hunt (learned skill). Every animal needs to learn HOW to make use of their environment, their capabilities, to be successful AT hunting. Those that don't know the 'how' are either killed off because they will be a burdon on the pack, or left behind to fend for themselves. However, even those left behind WILL hunt, even if they don't know the best way to do it or score the big game... and will eventually wither and die. Just like the instinct... to run from prey (flee response). Animals that are good at this, survive, those that aren't good at this instinct, die.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with what you're saying. They are taught how to hunt. However, to "want" to hunt, I disagree. I believe it's more of the instinct to actually find something to fill that empty stomach, be it carnivore or herbivore.
They aren't taught 'to hunt' (instinctive). They are taught *HOW* to hunt (learned skill). Every animal needs to learn HOW to make use of their environment, their capabilities, to be successful AT hunting. Those that don't know the 'how' are either killed off because they will be a burdon on the pack, or left behind to fend for themselves. However, even those left behind WILL hunt, even if they don't know the best way to do it or score the big game... and will eventually wither and die. Just like the instinct... to run from prey (flee response). Animals that are good at this, survive, those that aren't good at this instinct, die.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with what you're saying. They are taught how to hunt. However, to "want" to hunt, I disagree. I believe it's more of the instinct to actually find something to fill that empty stomach, be it carnivore or herbivore.
| grippgoat | 08-17-2006 01:20 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]But you do think about it. That's the point. It's just a process that's made faster over time as you develop the learned skill. Were you born with the knowledge to heel-toe? No you weren't. You had to be told. You have the insinct to move your feet as it's natural. The brain just processes stuff MUCH faster when you do things repeitively over time.
Think about the 1st time you tried typing on a keyboard. Today, how well do you do it? Accurately? :)
Your thought process may be different (through speed or pattern) but you still have to think to the nth degree that you have to do something, and THIS is what should be done (heel toe now, vs 10 feet from now). Etc...
Over time, it may seem that you're not thinking and just reacting 'instinctively' but that's not the case. You're just processing the data and implementing the actions much faster.... but you're still thinking about it. :)
--kC[/QUOTE]
When I'm braking from 135 to about 50mph for turn one at Portland (with the Chicane), yes, I do think about "Ok, now it's time to check up the brake pedal, ok now I get on the brakes." I may even think "Oh yeah, i should downshift, too" (sometimes I forget that if I blew the braking point, heh). But I'm certainly not thinking, "Ok, first, step on the clutch... ok good, now we move the shifter.... ok, now I need to move my foot over and push the gas... ok..... those revs sound about right, now I can let the clutch out... oops, missed bit a few RPM, I need to feather the clutch...". It just doesn't happen like that. When I'm at my fastest, the only things I'm thinking about are when I first hit the brakes and when I turn in. If I can put the corner I'm in completely out of my head and focus on the next turn, I'm invariably faster. Sometimes I find myself in mid corner going faster than usual for that corner, and for the life of me I cannot remember what I did at corner entry.
I'm not actually sure what your entire point of view in this discussion is.... But what I'm reacting to is that it seems like some people are making the assertion that only things that are genuine instincts can be done without thinking about it, and I think that's crap. People can absolutely commit learned actions to the "sub-conscious" (semantics aside), and those actions are generally best executed when as little thought as possible is put into them.
-Mike
Think about the 1st time you tried typing on a keyboard. Today, how well do you do it? Accurately? :)
Your thought process may be different (through speed or pattern) but you still have to think to the nth degree that you have to do something, and THIS is what should be done (heel toe now, vs 10 feet from now). Etc...
Over time, it may seem that you're not thinking and just reacting 'instinctively' but that's not the case. You're just processing the data and implementing the actions much faster.... but you're still thinking about it. :)
--kC[/QUOTE]
When I'm braking from 135 to about 50mph for turn one at Portland (with the Chicane), yes, I do think about "Ok, now it's time to check up the brake pedal, ok now I get on the brakes." I may even think "Oh yeah, i should downshift, too" (sometimes I forget that if I blew the braking point, heh). But I'm certainly not thinking, "Ok, first, step on the clutch... ok good, now we move the shifter.... ok, now I need to move my foot over and push the gas... ok..... those revs sound about right, now I can let the clutch out... oops, missed bit a few RPM, I need to feather the clutch...". It just doesn't happen like that. When I'm at my fastest, the only things I'm thinking about are when I first hit the brakes and when I turn in. If I can put the corner I'm in completely out of my head and focus on the next turn, I'm invariably faster. Sometimes I find myself in mid corner going faster than usual for that corner, and for the life of me I cannot remember what I did at corner entry.
I'm not actually sure what your entire point of view in this discussion is.... But what I'm reacting to is that it seems like some people are making the assertion that only things that are genuine instincts can be done without thinking about it, and I think that's crap. People can absolutely commit learned actions to the "sub-conscious" (semantics aside), and those actions are generally best executed when as little thought as possible is put into them.
-Mike
| GarySheehan | 08-17-2006 03:31 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]When I'm braking from 135 to about 50mph for turn one at Portland (with the Chicane), yes, I do think about "Ok, now it's time to check up the brake pedal, ok now I get on the brakes." I may even think "Oh yeah, i should downshift, too" (sometimes I forget that if I blew the braking point, heh). But I'm certainly not thinking, "Ok, first, step on the clutch... ok good, now we move the shifter.... ok, now I need to move my foot over and push the gas... ok..... those revs sound about right, now I can let the clutch out... oops, missed bit a few RPM, I need to feather the clutch...". It just doesn't happen like that. When I'm at my fastest, the only things I'm thinking about are when I first hit the brakes and when I turn in. If I can put the corner I'm in completely out of my head and focus on the next turn, I'm invariably faster. Sometimes I find myself in mid corner going faster than usual for that corner, and for the life of me I cannot remember what I did at corner entry.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Sometimes, after an extended rumination on Parcheesi strategy, I will become aware that I'm driving a racecar. I've missed entire race weekends that way....
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Sometimes, after an extended rumination on Parcheesi strategy, I will become aware that I'm driving a racecar. I've missed entire race weekends that way....
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| KC | 08-17-2006 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Sometimes, after an extended rumination on Parcheesi strategy, I will become aware that I'm driving a racecar. I've missed entire race weekends that way....
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
:lol:
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
:lol:
| SlideWRX | 08-18-2006 12:45 PM |
Want more to think about?
[URL=http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=00010347-101C-14C1-8F9E83414B7F4945]The Expert Mind[/URL]
Experts are made, not born.
Tom
[URL=http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=00010347-101C-14C1-8F9E83414B7F4945]The Expert Mind[/URL]
Experts are made, not born.
Tom
| SWortham | 08-18-2006 01:11 PM |
It makes sense that one could achieve a state of "subconscious" driving. A point at which the driver's learned instincts take over. Like others have said the same can be said of nearly all sports. As another example, I've played tennis for a long time. After the first few years of playing, I could instinctively predict where my opponent will most likely hit the ball, and place myself on the court to play good "percentage" tennis.
Back to racing, I remember one of Ayrton Senna's interviews where he described briefly how he put himself in a certain state of mind before a race. And another interview where he describes what he as a driver goes through at every race...
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit and you go for this limit and you touch this limit and you think, ok, this is the limit. As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you realise that you can suddenly go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and your experience as well, you can fly very high."
- Ayrton Senna
As for me, I'm not there yet. My "subconscious" isn't smart enough yet.
Back to racing, I remember one of Ayrton Senna's interviews where he described briefly how he put himself in a certain state of mind before a race. And another interview where he describes what he as a driver goes through at every race...
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit and you go for this limit and you touch this limit and you think, ok, this is the limit. As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you realise that you can suddenly go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and your experience as well, you can fly very high."
- Ayrton Senna
As for me, I'm not there yet. My "subconscious" isn't smart enough yet.
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