| leecea | 10-16-2006 09:58 AM |
How do you "save it" in a slalom?
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When you're going too fast and the backend is coming around part way through a slalom, what do you do?
It seems like giving it gas, to drive out of the slide, just means you will be in worse shape at the next gate. You have to lose speed without making the back even less stable, but how? Is it a lost cause?
It seems like giving it gas, to drive out of the slide, just means you will be in worse shape at the next gate. You have to lose speed without making the back even less stable, but how? Is it a lost cause?
| fliz | 10-16-2006 10:12 AM |
I mash the gas, drive through the next slalom cone, and go after it next time.
But, I'm not very good...
But, I'm not very good...
| wrx2.0 555 | 10-16-2006 10:26 AM |
I'm going to add my .02 just to possibly prompt some more feedback...
Even though I dont do it, I would tend the think that this is a prime example of where some left foot braking could come in handy.
Left footing it would allow you to keep your foot on the gas as to not upset the car any further, but allow you to apply some braking to hopefully get the car slowed down enough that you dont lose control.
input from left foot pro's would be nice......
Even though I dont do it, I would tend the think that this is a prime example of where some left foot braking could come in handy.
Left footing it would allow you to keep your foot on the gas as to not upset the car any further, but allow you to apply some braking to hopefully get the car slowed down enough that you dont lose control.
input from left foot pro's would be nice......
| WMAWRX | 10-16-2006 10:30 AM |
If you start to lose it at Auto-X in a slalmon, yoru time's probably trashed anyway, so stomp it, drive around the next cone and treat the rest of the run as a practice session. If you keep trying to correct, you're going to get wider and wilder which will result in a spin or ending up way off course.
As an aside, one Auto-X school can drastically improve your slalon skills. When you learn to maintain a steady speed, it's as easy as rocking the wheel back and forth to achieve a fast, smooth line. Doing this 40 times in a day really makes a difference!
As an aside, one Auto-X school can drastically improve your slalon skills. When you learn to maintain a steady speed, it's as easy as rocking the wheel back and forth to achieve a fast, smooth line. Doing this 40 times in a day really makes a difference!
| leecea | 10-16-2006 10:43 AM |
[QUOTE]When you learn to maintain a steady speed, it's as easy as rocking the wheel back and forth to achieve a fast, smooth line. [/QUOTE]
I agree 100% but some slaloms are deliberately set to require speed changes. Some have increasing spacing to require acceleration through the gates, others have some offset cones that change the rythm. Maybe these aren't really slaloms, in the pure sense, but IMHO they are the hard ones to get right.
I agree 100% but some slaloms are deliberately set to require speed changes. Some have increasing spacing to require acceleration through the gates, others have some offset cones that change the rythm. Maybe these aren't really slaloms, in the pure sense, but IMHO they are the hard ones to get right.
| Corey | 10-16-2006 10:44 AM |
OK, I used to run into this situation alot, before I could judge good entry speeds into slaloms. I'm a left foot braker, and do use both my feet in slaloms somewhat.
To me, an OC is unacceptable unless it just can't be avoided. Who knows what else is going to happen on that run... what if you get to the next turn and there is a cone out of place? RERUN!
In my opinion, mashing the gas is NOT the correct method. When you get behind, the last thing you want to do is increase speed. Think about it, the problem is that you are going too fast, and turning too much/too fast... so do the opposite. Straighten out the wheel a bit and SLOW DOWN. Usually using the brakes is necessary to slow down, just don't jam them on and upset the car even more.
As soon as you get slowed down enough that the tail isn't wagging, get back on your line and continue your run.
That's what works for me. Your results may vary.
Corey #89 STS
To me, an OC is unacceptable unless it just can't be avoided. Who knows what else is going to happen on that run... what if you get to the next turn and there is a cone out of place? RERUN!
In my opinion, mashing the gas is NOT the correct method. When you get behind, the last thing you want to do is increase speed. Think about it, the problem is that you are going too fast, and turning too much/too fast... so do the opposite. Straighten out the wheel a bit and SLOW DOWN. Usually using the brakes is necessary to slow down, just don't jam them on and upset the car even more.
As soon as you get slowed down enough that the tail isn't wagging, get back on your line and continue your run.
That's what works for me. Your results may vary.
Corey #89 STS
| solo-x | 10-16-2006 10:47 AM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555;15627988]I'm going to add my .02 just to possibly prompt some more feedback...
Even though I dont do it, I would tend the think that this is a prime example of where some left foot braking could come in handy.
Left footing it would allow you to keep your foot on the gas as to not upset the car any further, but allow you to apply some braking to hopefully get the car slowed down enough that you dont lose control.
input from left foot pro's would be nice......[/QUOTE]
if you're slowing the car down, it doesn't matter if you did it with a lift throttle or a left foot brake.
if the car isn't REALLY out of sorts you might be able to collect it while lifting off the throttle and unwinding/counter steering. barring that, do whatever you need to do to collect and but make sure you don't skip any cones and go off course. if you have to, hit the cones if you can't slalom them. at least then if there is a timing problem or you find a downed cone later in the run you can get a rerun. the ultimate solution is to never get that far out of sorts.
Even though I dont do it, I would tend the think that this is a prime example of where some left foot braking could come in handy.
Left footing it would allow you to keep your foot on the gas as to not upset the car any further, but allow you to apply some braking to hopefully get the car slowed down enough that you dont lose control.
input from left foot pro's would be nice......[/QUOTE]
if you're slowing the car down, it doesn't matter if you did it with a lift throttle or a left foot brake.
if the car isn't REALLY out of sorts you might be able to collect it while lifting off the throttle and unwinding/counter steering. barring that, do whatever you need to do to collect and but make sure you don't skip any cones and go off course. if you have to, hit the cones if you can't slalom them. at least then if there is a timing problem or you find a downed cone later in the run you can get a rerun. the ultimate solution is to never get that far out of sorts.
| sachilles | 10-16-2006 10:56 AM |
I'd second the opinion that you are too late to save it for a decent timed run.
You'll likely take out the next cone.
In terms of using it as learning tool to save your car in that situation, keeping the gas down can pull you out of it, just not in a path that is the same as the slalom. In an autox, letting off the gas should help you recover.
The problem with holding on the gas is it takes some practice(and space to practice in...as it is natural to overcorrect, and I think it just takes practice to overcome that.
As far as slaloms go, it sounds like you should be earlier on your turns or a slower entry speed....because if you are so out of shape you can't recover, the symptom of the problem was at least on cone prior to when you got really out of shape.
You'll likely take out the next cone.
In terms of using it as learning tool to save your car in that situation, keeping the gas down can pull you out of it, just not in a path that is the same as the slalom. In an autox, letting off the gas should help you recover.
The problem with holding on the gas is it takes some practice(and space to practice in...as it is natural to overcorrect, and I think it just takes practice to overcome that.
As far as slaloms go, it sounds like you should be earlier on your turns or a slower entry speed....because if you are so out of shape you can't recover, the symptom of the problem was at least on cone prior to when you got really out of shape.
| DrBiggly | 10-16-2006 11:25 AM |
I guess the answer to this question really depends on how badly one has overcooked a slalom.
For just a little I say Corey is right on the money, as is Nate.
For more than just a little, quit trying to save it and just make it to the end of the slalom somehow, even if you whack the next cone with the wrong side of the car.
The original description at the beginning of the thread though typically only happens with too much input and typically a late entry on the first cone, making one late for every other cone and trying to make it up by whipping the car harder than is necessary.
I know that is always what the root cause was when I did this in any vehicle, loose or not. :)
-Biggly
For just a little I say Corey is right on the money, as is Nate.
For more than just a little, quit trying to save it and just make it to the end of the slalom somehow, even if you whack the next cone with the wrong side of the car.
The original description at the beginning of the thread though typically only happens with too much input and typically a late entry on the first cone, making one late for every other cone and trying to make it up by whipping the car harder than is necessary.
I know that is always what the root cause was when I did this in any vehicle, loose or not. :)
-Biggly
| leecea | 10-16-2006 12:23 PM |
Thanks Corey and others for all the suggestions.
| cooleyjb | 10-16-2006 12:46 PM |
It also depends on the car.
FWD, RWD and AWD need different inputs for the same situation sometimes.
In a 911 for example at the end of slalom if it starting to get a bit tail happy you can stomp on it to make the rear end squat and deal with being off line after the slalom. A light lift when teh rear end is already coming around means you will be facing the wrong way before the next cone.
FWD, RWD and AWD need different inputs for the same situation sometimes.
In a 911 for example at the end of slalom if it starting to get a bit tail happy you can stomp on it to make the rear end squat and deal with being off line after the slalom. A light lift when teh rear end is already coming around means you will be facing the wrong way before the next cone.
| Scoobie Doogie | 10-16-2006 02:39 PM |
My .02 listen to Corey. He's right.
Dave Mac
Dave Mac
| leecea | 10-16-2006 03:12 PM |
[QUOTE=Scoobie Doogie;15631711]My .02 listen to Corey. He's right.
Dave Mac[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Dave Mac[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
| Scoobie Doogie | 10-16-2006 03:33 PM |
Truthfully Andy the best thing to do is to walk with Corey, Tony, Sam Strano, or any other uber-competitive driver. Getting a slalom right is all about entry speed and car position. If you're late, you're DONE. You should try to drive a faster car for an event or two and then go back to yours. The amount of time you have in-between slalom cones will astound you. It feels like a week in some cars.
Dave Mac
Dave Mac
| shemoves | 10-16-2006 03:52 PM |
just gonna add my little bit. I'd be careful with the lifting...if the back is already coming out, and you lift suddenly, you'll likely spin. My lesser experience would say to take out a cone and correct (that is assuming it is pretty bad). A bad time is better than a DNF.
| leecea | 10-16-2006 04:03 PM |
Hi Dave,
I can certainly learn from any of those people, but I think the two occasions I had in mind were not caused by lateness as much as bad judgement about how much speed I could carry.
The first was a slalom that increased the spacing between each successive cone, requiring acceleration through the gates. On my first run, I just used too much gas and the car kept getting looser at each transition. I tried to stay on it and drive my way out, causing a huge spin. If I'd tried a little speed control when it first got loose, I may have been OK. On later runs, I just accelerated less and was fine.
The second was at the Suby Challenge. There was a slalom with an offset cone in the center, so you could accelerate through the middle section. I felt that I'd been slow through there so tried to carry too much speed into the rest of the slalom where it tightened up. I think that one was probably a lost cause!
I can certainly learn from any of those people, but I think the two occasions I had in mind were not caused by lateness as much as bad judgement about how much speed I could carry.
The first was a slalom that increased the spacing between each successive cone, requiring acceleration through the gates. On my first run, I just used too much gas and the car kept getting looser at each transition. I tried to stay on it and drive my way out, causing a huge spin. If I'd tried a little speed control when it first got loose, I may have been OK. On later runs, I just accelerated less and was fine.
The second was at the Suby Challenge. There was a slalom with an offset cone in the center, so you could accelerate through the middle section. I felt that I'd been slow through there so tried to carry too much speed into the rest of the slalom where it tightened up. I think that one was probably a lost cause!
| fliz | 10-16-2006 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;15632785]...so tried to carry too much speed into the rest of the slalom where it tightened up. I think that one was probably a lost cause![/QUOTE]
That's actually a good point...know when you can't save it.
The closest I've come to having an incident was when I tried to save it for one or two cones too many...and ended up at the end of the slalom, completely out of control, spinning off course towards a light pole (and once into a grassy ditch :eek: ).
That's actually a good point...know when you can't save it.
The closest I've come to having an incident was when I tried to save it for one or two cones too many...and ended up at the end of the slalom, completely out of control, spinning off course towards a light pole (and once into a grassy ditch :eek: ).
| MRF582 | 10-16-2006 04:59 PM |
Don't touch the brakes, don't lift abruptly. All you have to do is apply a few more degrees of opposite lock. Don't overthink the situation. Countersteer more while maintaing constant throttle or slightly less throttle. Unless you really get the entry speed wrong they you're FUBAR.
| SharkWagon | 10-16-2006 05:17 PM |
[QUOTE=MRF582;15633589]Don't touch the brakes, don't lift abruptly. All you have to do is apply a few more degrees of opposite lock. Don't overthink the situation. Countersteer more while maintaing constant throttle or slightly less throttle. Unless you really get the entry speed wrong they you're FUBAR.[/QUOTE]
+1, although there is a lot of good input here. (much better then mine I am sure)
If I am ready ur situation right (which I may not be) I would slowly lift while applying some opposite lock to get back on line once the car was stablized then go for whatever line will give you the smoothest enty into the next 2 gates.
If it is in the middle of the slalom and you end up deep into the entry of the next cone I slow down and position the car right then wind back up to speed, rather then knock it over. 2 seconds is a lot of time, and slowing down to hit the hole will probably only cost 1. IMHO
For me - I never scrap a run, unless I dnf'ed or there is no way to stop it, just bc runs are precious and ya never know how it will end.
But then I am not a very good driver, so ignore anything I just wrote.
+1, although there is a lot of good input here. (much better then mine I am sure)
If I am ready ur situation right (which I may not be) I would slowly lift while applying some opposite lock to get back on line once the car was stablized then go for whatever line will give you the smoothest enty into the next 2 gates.
If it is in the middle of the slalom and you end up deep into the entry of the next cone I slow down and position the car right then wind back up to speed, rather then knock it over. 2 seconds is a lot of time, and slowing down to hit the hole will probably only cost 1. IMHO
For me - I never scrap a run, unless I dnf'ed or there is no way to stop it, just bc runs are precious and ya never know how it will end.
But then I am not a very good driver, so ignore anything I just wrote.
| Scoobie Doogie | 10-16-2006 05:32 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;15632785]Hi Dave,
I can certainly learn from any of those people, but I think the two occasions I had in mind were not caused by lateness as much as bad judgement about how much speed I could carry.
The first was a slalom that increased the spacing between each successive cone, requiring acceleration through the gates. On my first run, I just used too much gas and the car kept getting looser at each transition. I tried to stay on it and drive my way out, causing a huge spin. If I'd tried a little speed control when it first got loose, I may have been OK. On later runs, I just accelerated less and was fine.
The second was at the Suby Challenge. There was a slalom with an offset cone in the center, so you could accelerate through the middle section. I felt that I'd been slow through there so tried to carry too much speed into the rest of the slalom where it tightened up. I think that one was probably a lost cause![/QUOTE]
Andy, again, it all comes back to your entry speed and your car postition. You got "behind" after the middle slalom cone, steering input earlier would have allowed you to carry the speed.
Dave Mac
I can certainly learn from any of those people, but I think the two occasions I had in mind were not caused by lateness as much as bad judgement about how much speed I could carry.
The first was a slalom that increased the spacing between each successive cone, requiring acceleration through the gates. On my first run, I just used too much gas and the car kept getting looser at each transition. I tried to stay on it and drive my way out, causing a huge spin. If I'd tried a little speed control when it first got loose, I may have been OK. On later runs, I just accelerated less and was fine.
The second was at the Suby Challenge. There was a slalom with an offset cone in the center, so you could accelerate through the middle section. I felt that I'd been slow through there so tried to carry too much speed into the rest of the slalom where it tightened up. I think that one was probably a lost cause![/QUOTE]
Andy, again, it all comes back to your entry speed and your car postition. You got "behind" after the middle slalom cone, steering input earlier would have allowed you to carry the speed.
Dave Mac
| leecea | 10-16-2006 06:34 PM |
Dave,
I think I see what you mean. A good line at one speed will become a "late" line as the speed goes up. I got late because I was going faster after the offset cone.
Andy.
I think I see what you mean. A good line at one speed will become a "late" line as the speed goes up. I got late because I was going faster after the offset cone.
Andy.
| grippgoat | 10-16-2006 06:49 PM |
I liked the "run over the cone while you gather it up, and then keep going" idea. :) Better than gating.
-Mike
-Mike
| xcdhridr | 10-17-2006 02:55 AM |
without reading anyone elses response...
why save it. If you messed up, it's not likely going to be you fastest run
That said, I just stay with it, let off a little gas, and remember to turn the wheel earlier than normal to get back in a rhythm. It took some practice (read: mistakes) to learn how to turn the wheel earlier to fix a mistake, but it helps.
why save it. If you messed up, it's not likely going to be you fastest run
That said, I just stay with it, let off a little gas, and remember to turn the wheel earlier than normal to get back in a rhythm. It took some practice (read: mistakes) to learn how to turn the wheel earlier to fix a mistake, but it helps.
| KC | 10-17-2006 07:39 AM |
[QUOTE=xcdhridr;15640348]without reading anyone elses response...
why save it. If you messed up, it's not likely going to be you fastest run.[/QUOTE]Because if you're good, you could mess it up three times... then it *could* be your fastest run. :devil:
If you're late, you're late. Give it up, reel it in, and get back on course. That's basically the only input that I can add. :) It's just nice to see people give the real advice that 'yup, you screwed up the entry'. Fix that next time. ;)
--kC
why save it. If you messed up, it's not likely going to be you fastest run.[/QUOTE]Because if you're good, you could mess it up three times... then it *could* be your fastest run. :devil:
If you're late, you're late. Give it up, reel it in, and get back on course. That's basically the only input that I can add. :) It's just nice to see people give the real advice that 'yup, you screwed up the entry'. Fix that next time. ;)
--kC
| ratt_finkel | 10-17-2006 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;15627629]How do you "save it" in a slalom? [/QUOTE]
Don't lose it;)
Don't lose it;)
| crystalhelix | 10-17-2006 02:54 PM |
How do you "save it" in a slalom?
Mash the gas, because it looks cooler, and when you loose it your excuse is better then " I lifted ", nobody likes a wuss:p . This coming from a BSP driver who loves to do a good AWD dorifto every now and then.
Mash the gas, because it looks cooler, and when you loose it your excuse is better then " I lifted ", nobody likes a wuss:p . This coming from a BSP driver who loves to do a good AWD dorifto every now and then.
| leecea | 10-17-2006 03:04 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;15646092]Mash the gas, because it looks cooler, and when you loose it your excuse is better then " I lifted ", nobody likes a wuss:p .[/QUOTE]
This is the best answer. I will mash the gas at every opportunity.
This is the best answer. I will mash the gas at every opportunity.
| SWortham | 10-17-2006 03:06 PM |
I think the hard part is being quick to respond and respond correctly and instinctively. I've spun my car a few times. And each time I know I countersteered but obviously not enough and not quickly enough. It's especially difficult with a short wheelbase car.
I do see drivers dive into a slalom too fast quite often and look like they're going to lose it. Yet somehow they recover and salvage their run. It would certainly be better if they kept it tidy through the slalom, but the ability to "save" it like that obviously comes with experience.
I do see drivers dive into a slalom too fast quite often and look like they're going to lose it. Yet somehow they recover and salvage their run. It would certainly be better if they kept it tidy through the slalom, but the ability to "save" it like that obviously comes with experience.
| skuttledude | 10-17-2006 03:08 PM |
I get out of the gas very briefly then mash it again. I will say that I'm usually not on the limits going thru slaloms for the very reason of not wanting to understeer and snow plow a ton of cones. Toward the end of the slalom I gun it good and try to make up some time.
For proof, see my video here : "Tankslapper" [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos/June06/tankslapper.wmv[/url]
2.5 MB
See all vids here: [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos.htm[/url]
For proof, see my video here : "Tankslapper" [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos/June06/tankslapper.wmv[/url]
2.5 MB
See all vids here: [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos.htm[/url]
| SWortham | 10-17-2006 03:22 PM |
I have a habit of entering a slalom significantly slower than I exit one. I'll focus on keeping my steering smooth, back siding every cone, and gradually pick up speed as I get a feel for the limit. That seems to work pretty well, although I think the better drivers instinctively know how fast they can enter a slalom and can maintain that speed throughout. It's the little things like that separate me from a good driver, ha.
| ratt_finkel | 10-17-2006 03:58 PM |
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers;15646296]I get out of the gas very briefly then mash it again. I will say that I'm usually not on the limits going thru slaloms for the very reason of not wanting to understeer and snow plow a ton of cones. Toward the end of the slalom I gun it good and try to make up some time.
For proof, see my video here : "Tankslapper" [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos/June06/tankslapper.wmv[/url]
2.5 MB
See all vids here: [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Don't take this the wrong way. But your major problem here wasn't mashing the gas. But way too much steering input. You could've gone significantly faster with less steering effort. In addition, the additional steering input caused you to swing way off line requiring more steering angle to get back where you need to be.
Great car control though.;)
For proof, see my video here : "Tankslapper" [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos/June06/tankslapper.wmv[/url]
2.5 MB
See all vids here: [url]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com/videos.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Don't take this the wrong way. But your major problem here wasn't mashing the gas. But way too much steering input. You could've gone significantly faster with less steering effort. In addition, the additional steering input caused you to swing way off line requiring more steering angle to get back where you need to be.
Great car control though.;)
| corey_dyck | 10-18-2006 11:19 AM |
I tend to use very aggressive and quick counter steering to get the car to stop rotating the wrong way. Once the rotation has stopped or slowed, I re-center the steering and get back on the line. If you think about the rotation rather than the line, you'll do a lot better at saving it. I find that jerking the car back on the racing line is a sure-fire way to spin.
If you haven't got it after two oscillations, stop trying to stay on line. Too many cars have ventured way off-course trying to save it. If you're more than 10' off the racing line, put both feet in and quit before you hit something or someone.
If you haven't got it after two oscillations, stop trying to stay on line. Too many cars have ventured way off-course trying to save it. If you're more than 10' off the racing line, put both feet in and quit before you hit something or someone.
| steverife | 10-18-2006 08:15 PM |
Well I drive a tail happy STS2 CRX, so I'm pretty much committed once I'm in a slalom. Abruptly lifting or getting on the brakes is not a very good option. If I find myself getting late, I can generally hang on by lifting slightly. If I make a big mistake like not getting behind the first cone or I'm simply carrying too much speed, I just take the slalom much flatter. I'll generally hit a cone or two (or three or four), but I can still gain something from the run instead of blowing it with a spin or DNF would.
disclaimer: I'm not national level fast, but I don't think I'm a total hack, either.
disclaimer: I'm not national level fast, but I don't think I'm a total hack, either.
| Storm | 10-19-2006 03:17 AM |
Twice the gas and half the steering.....
| lil'redwagon | 10-20-2006 07:44 PM |
clutch in, steer out.
| skuttledude | 10-20-2006 07:56 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel;15647105]Don't take this the wrong way. But your major problem here wasn't mashing the gas. But way too much steering input. You could've gone significantly faster with less steering effort. In addition, the additional steering input caused you to swing way off line requiring more steering angle to get back where you need to be.
Great car control though.;)[/QUOTE]
Actually the whole lap was a mess;)
Great car control though.;)[/QUOTE]
Actually the whole lap was a mess;)
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