| go go go | 10-05-2002 06:59 PM |
How to make Subaru win the WRC title.
Why do you guys think Impreza is not competitive in WRC right now?
Is there a way to make Subaru win the title? (both driver and manufacture)
I personally think Impreza is too big for recent high speed WRC.
I think Subaru needs to run in smaller car (which they don't have :( )
In 2003, Subaru is gonna run only 2 cars due to their budget and Prodrive is already giving up the manufacture title. But I don't think budget is the problem.
Is there a way to make Subaru win the title? (both driver and manufacture)
I personally think Impreza is too big for recent high speed WRC.
I think Subaru needs to run in smaller car (which they don't have :( )
In 2003, Subaru is gonna run only 2 cars due to their budget and Prodrive is already giving up the manufacture title. But I don't think budget is the problem.
| AustinTX | 10-05-2002 07:02 PM |
I think if they had gotten their reliability to where it needed to be at the beginning of the season, Tommi and Petter would be well within reach of Gronholm. Petter is driving great lately, and is showing to be the best of the rest. The tires may also be factoring into the Peugeot dominance right now, as well.
| johnfelstead | 10-05-2002 07:51 PM |
Well Petter's engine just blew up, so much for reliability. :(
| Patrick L | 10-05-2002 10:13 PM |
FIA just needs to set rules on the cars that can be used in the WRC. The 206 is quite smaller then my 2.5RS. I have parked my car next to a real 206 road car. The 206 is a much different car then the Impreza. It's shorter, the wheels are set closer to the rear and front of the car. The front mainly cause it's a transvers engine. Heck, how many of the car in the FIA WRC can be bought with AWD. Impreza, Lancer and Focus.
My thought are the same, GO GO GO. Maybe Subaru should use a smaller car. Hopefully the redesign will help the Impreza. Hell look at the dam rear spoiler on the 206. That's rediculous with the vails and how big it is. At least you can buy a STI Impreza with a similiar size spoiler. FIA has some re thinking to do about the car that are allowed and too make limits.
My thought are the same, GO GO GO. Maybe Subaru should use a smaller car. Hopefully the redesign will help the Impreza. Hell look at the dam rear spoiler on the 206. That's rediculous with the vails and how big it is. At least you can buy a STI Impreza with a similiar size spoiler. FIA has some re thinking to do about the car that are allowed and too make limits.
| jesse370 | 10-05-2002 11:31 PM |
I think they need a three car team and even more important is a reliable car. They have had too many issues this year with the car.
| Kilika2k | 10-05-2002 11:39 PM |
Its gonna be quite hard with Peugeot in the way. Two cars can be scored for manufacturer points and Peugeot has a tarmac specialist, gravel specialist, and then theres Marcus and Richard. Its just hard when they have so much money. They are going to have Marlboro sponsoring their cars next year which means more money for them (Marlboro always puts their money in championship winning teams ala Ferrari F1, Penske IRL, Mistubishi when they had Tommi). Subaru needs a big sponsor, maybe triple 5 money haven't sunken in yet.
| Thug | 10-05-2002 11:58 PM |
Re: How to make Subaru win the WRC title.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by go go go [/i]
[B]
I personally think Impreza is too big for recent high speed WRC.
I think Subaru needs to run in smaller car (which they don't have :( )
[/B][/QUOTE]
You've got that backwards. Larger wheelbase cars are better for high speed events because they are less twitchy. Smaller wheelbase cars are better for tighter events because they are easier to rotate and toss around. They are also better on tarmac, which is a big reason Peugeot dominated this year.
WRC events are pretty tight, so yes, Subaru does need to run a smaller wheelbase car, IMO.
How about a Pleo WRC next year? :lol:
[B]
I personally think Impreza is too big for recent high speed WRC.
I think Subaru needs to run in smaller car (which they don't have :( )
[/B][/QUOTE]
You've got that backwards. Larger wheelbase cars are better for high speed events because they are less twitchy. Smaller wheelbase cars are better for tighter events because they are easier to rotate and toss around. They are also better on tarmac, which is a big reason Peugeot dominated this year.
WRC events are pretty tight, so yes, Subaru does need to run a smaller wheelbase car, IMO.
How about a Pleo WRC next year? :lol:
| Jon Bogert | 10-06-2002 12:30 AM |
See, the big disconnect here is whether selling a road car comes first or winning rallies comes first. Subaru has tried to walk the tightrope by designing a mommy-mobile (the WRX nouveau) and then trying to make it into a winning rally car. Bad move, IMO. If Subaru built a shorter wheelbase, shorter overhang, lower yaw moment AWD turbo car which weighed about 2500lbs in street trim, they could mop up Group N, win the WRC, and sell me one, too! It's a win-win, you dumb marketing weenies! :lol:
The problem is, I'd only buy one...
The problem is, I'd only buy one...
| go go go | 10-06-2002 12:59 AM |
>y2K4dr
that's what I'm saying, I think Subaru needs smaller car, which generally is smaller wheel base.
When Subaru were running legacy, they quickly knew that they needed a small car, so they created a brand new car "Impreza".
but they need even smaller car but they don't have any.
Mitsubishi has a next generation weapon "CZ3 Tarmac" in the future but what about Subaru....yeah maybe they need to run Pleo:lol: By the way McRae run 660cc Subaru Vivio in Safari before.
Mitsubishi CZ3tarmac concept car
[IMG]http://car.nifty.com/motorshow/tokyo_ms2001/mitsubishi/cz3/01_s.jpg[/IMG]
and rally version in GranTurismoConcept 2001
[IMG]http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~naomix/GTC/pcar08.jpg[/IMG]
AWD turbo
that's what I'm saying, I think Subaru needs smaller car, which generally is smaller wheel base.
When Subaru were running legacy, they quickly knew that they needed a small car, so they created a brand new car "Impreza".
but they need even smaller car but they don't have any.
Mitsubishi has a next generation weapon "CZ3 Tarmac" in the future but what about Subaru....yeah maybe they need to run Pleo:lol: By the way McRae run 660cc Subaru Vivio in Safari before.
Mitsubishi CZ3tarmac concept car
[IMG]http://car.nifty.com/motorshow/tokyo_ms2001/mitsubishi/cz3/01_s.jpg[/IMG]
and rally version in GranTurismoConcept 2001
[IMG]http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~naomix/GTC/pcar08.jpg[/IMG]
AWD turbo
| Nordstone | 10-06-2002 02:40 AM |
All the cars weigh the same. So, the size difference comes down to wheelbase, etc... It would seem to me that shorter wheelbase cars shouldn't do as well in rallys like New Zealand. The roads are mostly high speed affairs.
The Pugs are kicking the Subys butts in New Zealand. They are, flat out, a better car.
The Pugs are kicking the Subys butts in New Zealand. They are, flat out, a better car.
| kgb | 10-06-2002 03:52 AM |
IIRC, the Pug has to have all the body kit and wing to fill out the minimum size requirements? But I think the reliability should give the drivers enough to chase after the Pugs, though I'm not sure reliability along would have allowed them to win. With reliability, comes drivers' confidence (or at least, improve it so that they can push the car harder). Having 3 drivers might help, but obviously with the tight budget that 3rd driver might be hard pressed to score points (if they can even afford one)
| Skyline | 10-06-2002 09:51 AM |
The Impreza WRC seems to be competitive enough. I think the major issue at this point is reliability and the drivers keeping the cars on the road.
:(
:(
| Jersey Mike | 10-06-2002 11:08 AM |
$$$$$ and more $$$$$
That will make the Impreza win.
That will make the Impreza win.
| AA717driver | 10-06-2002 11:56 AM |
Homologation?
If Citroen, Pugeot and Mitsu want to make rally cars from their smallest econoboxes, they should have to build a certain number for sale as street machines. If you want a turbo, AWD 206 rally car, Pugeot has to build 500 or so for the street.
They would probably go ahead and do it, but maybe not if the production costs got too high. The might have to rally a larger car to accomodate the mechanicals in a cost-effective manner.TC
They would probably go ahead and do it, but maybe not if the production costs got too high. The might have to rally a larger car to accomodate the mechanicals in a cost-effective manner.TC
| Skyline | 10-06-2002 12:38 PM |
Re: Homologation?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AA717driver [/i]
[B]If Citroen, Pugeot and Mitsu want to make rally cars from their smallest econoboxes, they should have to build a certain number for sale as street machines. If you want a turbo, AWD 206 rally car, Pugeot has to build 500 or so for the street.
They would probably go ahead and do it, but maybe not if the production costs got too high. The might have to rally a larger car to accomodate the mechanicals in a cost-effective manner.TC [/B][/QUOTE]
No, these are WRC class cars, and the homologation rules are different (below 50 units) from Group A (above 2500).
[B]If Citroen, Pugeot and Mitsu want to make rally cars from their smallest econoboxes, they should have to build a certain number for sale as street machines. If you want a turbo, AWD 206 rally car, Pugeot has to build 500 or so for the street.
They would probably go ahead and do it, but maybe not if the production costs got too high. The might have to rally a larger car to accomodate the mechanicals in a cost-effective manner.TC [/B][/QUOTE]
No, these are WRC class cars, and the homologation rules are different (below 50 units) from Group A (above 2500).
| Jewbaru | 10-06-2002 03:21 PM |
Re: Re: Homologation?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Skyline [/i]
[B]
No, these are WRC class cars, and the homologation rules are different (below 50 units) from Group A (above 2500). [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought they did away with the homologation rules all together. :confused:
Either way, the Impreza is too large, and it's aerodynamics weren't the best. They addressed that part with the facelift. We'll see next year.
[B]
No, these are WRC class cars, and the homologation rules are different (below 50 units) from Group A (above 2500). [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought they did away with the homologation rules all together. :confused:
Either way, the Impreza is too large, and it's aerodynamics weren't the best. They addressed that part with the facelift. We'll see next year.
| elgorey | 10-06-2002 04:27 PM |
[QUOTE]But I don't think budget is the problem.[/QUOTE]
Budget is the [i]only[/i] problem. Money is all that matters, welcome to motorsports
Budget is the [i]only[/i] problem. Money is all that matters, welcome to motorsports
| bemani | 10-06-2002 04:48 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by go go go [/i]
[B]>Mitsubishi has a next generation weapon "CZ3 Tarmac" in the future but what about Subaru....yeah maybe they need to run Pleo:lol: By the way McRae run 660cc Subaru Vivio in Safari before.
Mitsubishi CZ3tarmac concept car
[IMG]http://car.nifty.com/motorshow/tokyo_ms2001/mitsubishi/cz3/01_s.jpg[/IMG]
and rally version in GranTurismoConcept 2001
[IMG]http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~naomix/GTC/pcar08.jpg[/IMG]
AWD turbo [/B][/QUOTE]
The CZ3 in Gran Turismo Concept rocks! It is only 1.6T, yet I can make it run faster than any other rally cars in that game, including Mitsu's own LanEvo! If it is really that fast in real life, Mitsu will kick some ass with a 2.0T engine in that baby.
[B]>Mitsubishi has a next generation weapon "CZ3 Tarmac" in the future but what about Subaru....yeah maybe they need to run Pleo:lol: By the way McRae run 660cc Subaru Vivio in Safari before.
Mitsubishi CZ3tarmac concept car
[IMG]http://car.nifty.com/motorshow/tokyo_ms2001/mitsubishi/cz3/01_s.jpg[/IMG]
and rally version in GranTurismoConcept 2001
[IMG]http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~naomix/GTC/pcar08.jpg[/IMG]
AWD turbo [/B][/QUOTE]
The CZ3 in Gran Turismo Concept rocks! It is only 1.6T, yet I can make it run faster than any other rally cars in that game, including Mitsu's own LanEvo! If it is really that fast in real life, Mitsu will kick some ass with a 2.0T engine in that baby.
| ShockWave | 10-06-2002 06:16 PM |
money thing
It's a money thing.
Reliability comes from extensive testing and higher quality materials (strange alloys and composites). The Pug team is fielding 4 top drivers (if you include their tarmac specialist) to most teams' 3, or Subaru's 2.
And let's not forget that the only team I am aware of who has had DQs due to rule violations is Pugeot. That may not be a relevant point but it feels good to say :D
In my opinion, Prodrive is trying to win on a budget, and while you can be competitive and challenge on a budget, you can't dominate. (for reference, see Audi, RS8)
The only rule change that I might be interested in seeing would be limiting each team to 2 entries. This could make for some interesting decisions on whether to run a tarmac specialist or not. It might even result in some top level privateer teams.
::edited for spelling
Reliability comes from extensive testing and higher quality materials (strange alloys and composites). The Pug team is fielding 4 top drivers (if you include their tarmac specialist) to most teams' 3, or Subaru's 2.
And let's not forget that the only team I am aware of who has had DQs due to rule violations is Pugeot. That may not be a relevant point but it feels good to say :D
In my opinion, Prodrive is trying to win on a budget, and while you can be competitive and challenge on a budget, you can't dominate. (for reference, see Audi, RS8)
The only rule change that I might be interested in seeing would be limiting each team to 2 entries. This could make for some interesting decisions on whether to run a tarmac specialist or not. It might even result in some top level privateer teams.
::edited for spelling
| Gary (gg) | 10-06-2002 08:43 PM |
Guys, Richard Burns was last years WRC driving champ in the Imprezas. If you watched the New Zealand rally, to me the Pugs are easier to drive. It is a tossable car whereas the others are not. Marcus and Richard did not seem to turn the steering wheel as much. Also, I think Peugeots have the best shifters for their cars. Its that ring behind the steering wheel. That way it does not matter where your hands are on the wheel you can always shift compared to the other WRC cars. I believe that the easier to drive cars are crashed less.
| HURRY CURRY | 10-06-2002 11:22 PM |
i think citroen will be the company to take out peugot, or at least give them competition. the citroen is a great car plus the french seem to be the country that can build rally cars rite now, so im going to root for them. well if subaru gets colin back maybe ill root for them too. ahaha.dont take anything away from gronholm, he is such a smooth driver, that guy is a machine. burns just keeps pace and waits for people to crash, he got lucky last year. maybe times are changing back to the old days of rally. european companies are back on top which they deserve to be. it just shows that the new age impreza is crapy haha and all RS owners rule...
| HURRY CURRY | 10-06-2002 11:30 PM |
about the tarmac guy panizzi... that guy lives less than 50 miles from the san remo and corsica rallys. didnt delocur get in a fight with him a couple years back because panizzi was riding a mountain back through the crouses? plus that guy seems like an A hole, so i hate him.
| Thug | 10-06-2002 11:34 PM |
Peugeot and Citroen are owned by the same company. It's not quite the new blood you'd think it is.
| Simon Lines | 10-07-2002 04:35 AM |
$$$$$$$ or ££££££££
We are 3rd in the championship behind Peugeot and Ford
It's 99.9% money guys
Cheers
Simon
We are 3rd in the championship behind Peugeot and Ford
It's 99.9% money guys
Cheers
Simon
| Idjiit | 10-07-2002 09:02 AM |
Here's a bit of trivia for you:
Q) Which WRC car has the shortest wheelbase?
A) Hyundai Accent WRC.
So, one more vote for money and reliability here. Short wheelbase cars are nothing new to WRC, I think that factor is given way too much weight in the argument. If it was a big deal, you can bet that the other manufacturers would be calling foul over it, but they're not.
What the other manufacturers (Ford in particular) [b]are[/b] complaining about is how expensive it's getting to Rally. Everything from transportation costs to development of the cars themselves to the salaries demanded by top drivers. The FIA needs to limit the technology used in these cars, or else the gap between the haves and have-nots will increase.
Q) Which WRC car has the shortest wheelbase?
A) Hyundai Accent WRC.
So, one more vote for money and reliability here. Short wheelbase cars are nothing new to WRC, I think that factor is given way too much weight in the argument. If it was a big deal, you can bet that the other manufacturers would be calling foul over it, but they're not.
What the other manufacturers (Ford in particular) [b]are[/b] complaining about is how expensive it's getting to Rally. Everything from transportation costs to development of the cars themselves to the salaries demanded by top drivers. The FIA needs to limit the technology used in these cars, or else the gap between the haves and have-nots will increase.
| west_aust | 10-07-2002 09:12 AM |
the 206wrc car as the meets the minimum lenght requirement for a wrc car
in fact the 206 street car is too short to be in wrc so that's why that car has bigger bumpers, to lengthen the car so it meets requirements
i trully hope they will do better in 2003, with the redesigned car, which was designed for rally first, then as a road car
now that they have a major sponsors, which they didnt had in the pas years, will surely help
in fact the 206 street car is too short to be in wrc so that's why that car has bigger bumpers, to lengthen the car so it meets requirements
i trully hope they will do better in 2003, with the redesigned car, which was designed for rally first, then as a road car
now that they have a major sponsors, which they didnt had in the pas years, will surely help
| johnfelstead | 10-07-2002 09:18 AM |
0.1% is not down to money. Thats not possible simon.
Subaru would have beaten ford this year if the cars were screwed together properly and Tommi would have used his head, that has nothing to do with money, thats just preparing the cars and team properly.
Sure, to take on Peugeot, Subaru need to spend more money, but that is down to prodrive/subaru going out there and getting it. If you cant raise the money, employ someone who can.
If you cant find any more money, then based on what you just said simon, Subaru are screwed for years to come because every year development rages on.
I dont buy that at all, money makes life far easier to make giant performance leaps, but inteligence in your engineering, top quality preperation of the cars, plus having a tyre partner that can produce something that works is worth even more.
Tyres can make more diference than any other single component, a large chunk of the performance deficit is down to Pirrelli too.
It would also help if the drivers were not rolling the car into a ball as often as they are. Petter is very inexperienced at this level, the guy is doing a fabulous job, once he gets over his early morning slow starting, he will win regularly. Tommi isnt motivated at all, he isnt driving a totally competitive car so instead of accepting that and accepting his role is to bring the car home in one piece to save money to be spent on development, he is wasting money in destroyed cars.
There is something wrong with the team management, someone isnt giving very good leadership IMHO.
And no, i am not saying this is easy, or people are incompetent, but at this level you cant be sloppy, and this year, subaru have been sloppy. This is coming from a massive WRC and Subaru fan, who wants to see things improve. If Prodrives internal mentality is that its 99.9% down to money then we really do have a problem that wont be fixed!
Just take a look at what D Higgins and AV Sport have done this year in Pro Rally against the prodrive run team, you dont need more money than everyone else to be succesful. You just need your head screwed on.
Subaru would have beaten ford this year if the cars were screwed together properly and Tommi would have used his head, that has nothing to do with money, thats just preparing the cars and team properly.
Sure, to take on Peugeot, Subaru need to spend more money, but that is down to prodrive/subaru going out there and getting it. If you cant raise the money, employ someone who can.
If you cant find any more money, then based on what you just said simon, Subaru are screwed for years to come because every year development rages on.
I dont buy that at all, money makes life far easier to make giant performance leaps, but inteligence in your engineering, top quality preperation of the cars, plus having a tyre partner that can produce something that works is worth even more.
Tyres can make more diference than any other single component, a large chunk of the performance deficit is down to Pirrelli too.
It would also help if the drivers were not rolling the car into a ball as often as they are. Petter is very inexperienced at this level, the guy is doing a fabulous job, once he gets over his early morning slow starting, he will win regularly. Tommi isnt motivated at all, he isnt driving a totally competitive car so instead of accepting that and accepting his role is to bring the car home in one piece to save money to be spent on development, he is wasting money in destroyed cars.
There is something wrong with the team management, someone isnt giving very good leadership IMHO.
And no, i am not saying this is easy, or people are incompetent, but at this level you cant be sloppy, and this year, subaru have been sloppy. This is coming from a massive WRC and Subaru fan, who wants to see things improve. If Prodrives internal mentality is that its 99.9% down to money then we really do have a problem that wont be fixed!
Just take a look at what D Higgins and AV Sport have done this year in Pro Rally against the prodrive run team, you dont need more money than everyone else to be succesful. You just need your head screwed on.
| elgorey | 10-07-2002 09:56 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Idjiit [/i]
[B]Here's a bit of trivia for you:
Q) Which WRC car has the shortest wheelbase?
A) Hyundai Accent WRC.
[/B][/QUOTE]
yup, and the Focus actually has one of the longest.
People are just looking for factors to blame why the Impreza isnt as competitive this year. Reliability, wheelbase, too big, blah blah blah. It comes down to $$$$
[B]Here's a bit of trivia for you:
Q) Which WRC car has the shortest wheelbase?
A) Hyundai Accent WRC.
[/B][/QUOTE]
yup, and the Focus actually has one of the longest.
People are just looking for factors to blame why the Impreza isnt as competitive this year. Reliability, wheelbase, too big, blah blah blah. It comes down to $$$$
| Idjiit | 10-07-2002 11:02 AM |
jon -
I guess I've assumed that Subaru's sloppiness was a result of underfunding, but your point is very well made. Pointing to ProRally is an excellent example... What possible excuse can Subaru have for totally underperforming in ProRally? Lack of money? Lack of talent? Is Higgins just [b]that[/b] good?
With that said, Tommi echoed what we've been hearing all year this weekend:
[quote]
"The gap to Peugeot is too big, I think we are closer to them than anyone else, but that isn't close enough. I don't think we have got time to make any big changes before Australia, but we need to concentrate on the new car for next year and I hope we can be more competitive."
[/quote]
They still seem to think that there is something fundamentally wrong with the car, since the gap is so big. Comments?
I guess I've assumed that Subaru's sloppiness was a result of underfunding, but your point is very well made. Pointing to ProRally is an excellent example... What possible excuse can Subaru have for totally underperforming in ProRally? Lack of money? Lack of talent? Is Higgins just [b]that[/b] good?
With that said, Tommi echoed what we've been hearing all year this weekend:
[quote]
"The gap to Peugeot is too big, I think we are closer to them than anyone else, but that isn't close enough. I don't think we have got time to make any big changes before Australia, but we need to concentrate on the new car for next year and I hope we can be more competitive."
[/quote]
They still seem to think that there is something fundamentally wrong with the car, since the gap is so big. Comments?
| AustinTX | 10-07-2002 11:13 AM |
It's simple. Peugeot have found a way to sidestep the rules and noone else has figured it out yet. It's the same thing Ferrari have been doing in F1 ever since they got Schumacher. It's great. They have pushed WRC to a new level. They'll get caught soon enough.
| mtb_dude | 10-07-2002 11:42 AM |
It's hard to accept that it's all money, but I think Subaru/Prodrive (or whoever made the decision) made a bad choice with Tommi, merely becuase they can't afford a third car. They get rid of Martin, who's showing plenty of talent in his RS Focus, becuase they needed the extra money to get Tommi. Don't get me wrong, Tommi's a great driver, but if they don't have the money for three drivers, they shouldn't have him. Solberg, Martin, and another bright new star and Subaru would've been in a great position for the 2003 season. You always need that third car to hedge reliability issues. It's not so much that the Prodrive car was unreliable, as that there was less fault tolerance with only the two cars. Next year will be the march of the French dominance once again. Sigh
EDIT: Also, don't make claims that somehow the Peugot is breaking the rules. It's not. It's just AT the rules limit and there's nothing wrong with that, it's called good strategy.
EDIT: Also, don't make claims that somehow the Peugot is breaking the rules. It's not. It's just AT the rules limit and there's nothing wrong with that, it's called good strategy.
| Unit 91 | 10-07-2002 01:09 PM |
I don't know if you've actually SEEN AV Sport in action, but their budget is less than small. It actually probably comes close to if not exceeds Subarus budget for US rally.
Ryan
edit: I'm going to agree that budget is a major factor by the way.
Ryan
edit: I'm going to agree that budget is a major factor by the way.
| gnildronde | 10-07-2002 02:27 PM |
Blaming a small budget doesn't explain anything. If you were to explain how the lack of budget specifically effects the car or development or personnel, it would make sense.
I agree more money would help but that's as specific as saying, "if we had a better team, we'd win more often." Or, "if it's true, I believe it."
I agree more money would help but that's as specific as saying, "if we had a better team, we'd win more often." Or, "if it's true, I believe it."
| Idjiit | 10-07-2002 06:30 PM |
[quote]I agree more money would help but that's as specific as saying, "if we had a better team, we'd win more often." Or, "if it's true, I believe it."[/quote]
Touche. :lol:
Touche. :lol:
| Skyline | 10-07-2002 09:18 PM |
As a Yankee fan, I can tell you it's not just about the money. :(
Again, I think the SWRT needs to get reliability up, and the drivers need to avoid crashing out.
I can only imagine Petter's heartbreak...
Sigh.
Again, I think the SWRT needs to get reliability up, and the drivers need to avoid crashing out.
I can only imagine Petter's heartbreak...
Sigh.
| mykrrrr | 10-08-2002 09:22 AM |
[QUOTE]Pointing to ProRally is an excellent example... What possible excuse can Subaru have for totally underperforming in ProRally? Lack of money? Lack of talent? Is Higgins just that good?[/QUOTE]
Yes...both David and Mark Higgins are [b]VERY[/b]good drivers. Natural talent/driving are a big part of racing even if you're driving/riding an underpowered out classed machine.
-mykr.
Yes...both David and Mark Higgins are [b]VERY[/b]good drivers. Natural talent/driving are a big part of racing even if you're driving/riding an underpowered out classed machine.
-mykr.
| KenG | 10-08-2002 07:59 PM |
"How to make Subaru win the WRC title"
1. Prayer
2. A third car.
3. Replace Tommi.
4. Richards to get his eye back on the ball.
Not necessarily in the above order.
Ken
UK
PS: Higgins IS that good.
1. Prayer
2. A third car.
3. Replace Tommi.
4. Richards to get his eye back on the ball.
Not necessarily in the above order.
Ken
UK
PS: Higgins IS that good.
| mtb_dude | 10-09-2002 11:07 AM |
I don't think you hav to replace Tommi, if you can get a third driver. I have no doubt that next year Tommi will be much better now that the new WRC2003 car has his input. But if you can't afford a third driver becuase of Tommi, well that's a different story. . . .
| Idjiit | 10-09-2002 02:37 PM |
Latest rumor is that Subaru is looking at adding Sainz to the lineup... Keep your fingers crossed.
Sainz may not be the flashiest guy, winning the most rallies (or crashing out of most), but he's extremely consistent and just what Subaru needs if they want to win the manufacturer's championship, or at least beat Ford.
Sainz may not be the flashiest guy, winning the most rallies (or crashing out of most), but he's extremely consistent and just what Subaru needs if they want to win the manufacturer's championship, or at least beat Ford.
| foxdeman | 10-09-2002 03:50 PM |
sort of on topic, but i think the Farrari team spends something like $250 million a year . .
| johnfelstead | 10-09-2002 06:37 PM |
yeh, on breakfast! :lol:
| Fmdeadrick | 10-10-2002 01:28 AM |
I think the future is with Petter. Tommi seems to have left his "drive" when he almost went over the cliff late last year.
I think the car has potential. I have looked at some of the designs used on the current car and am quite confused at what Prodrive was thinking. My prediction is that Prodrive will suffer the same fate as Reynard and TWR. Once their feet are in F1, everything else suffers. Reynard did horrible work on the customer Touring Cars, Vipers and Supertrucks I worked on a few years ago for Dodge. They concetrated all of their "talent" first on the Indy Cars, then BAR, now they are nothing. It looks like the same fate has hit Tom Walkinshaw as well. Though, I am not aware how his commercial side is doing now.
Now that David Richards has been drawn into BAR, and Prodrive is buying up companies left and right, I think it will catch up to them. Their ALMS Ferrari sure isn't doing well either, is it?
Pugeot is just the current perfectionist. Ford should be able to win with all of the money they throw at it, the just suck as a company as a whole right now. McRae at Citroen in a full season will be interesting, but the young guns in Solberg, Loeb and Martin are where the future is. Sainz will be gone soon, as will Tommi.
Mark
I think the car has potential. I have looked at some of the designs used on the current car and am quite confused at what Prodrive was thinking. My prediction is that Prodrive will suffer the same fate as Reynard and TWR. Once their feet are in F1, everything else suffers. Reynard did horrible work on the customer Touring Cars, Vipers and Supertrucks I worked on a few years ago for Dodge. They concetrated all of their "talent" first on the Indy Cars, then BAR, now they are nothing. It looks like the same fate has hit Tom Walkinshaw as well. Though, I am not aware how his commercial side is doing now.
Now that David Richards has been drawn into BAR, and Prodrive is buying up companies left and right, I think it will catch up to them. Their ALMS Ferrari sure isn't doing well either, is it?
Pugeot is just the current perfectionist. Ford should be able to win with all of the money they throw at it, the just suck as a company as a whole right now. McRae at Citroen in a full season will be interesting, but the young guns in Solberg, Loeb and Martin are where the future is. Sainz will be gone soon, as will Tommi.
Mark
| go go go | 10-10-2002 04:21 AM |
According to Arai, the forth? driver, the car has improved a lot since Tommi came in.
Maybe it's a good thing that Tommi is in Subaru because he gives great feed back.
When Subaru was winning with Colin, there was Carlos Sainz who is also known for a great driver to develop the machine.
I am hoping to see Petter win the game and Tommi to develop the car while scoring points.
Maybe it's a good thing that Tommi is in Subaru because he gives great feed back.
When Subaru was winning with Colin, there was Carlos Sainz who is also known for a great driver to develop the machine.
I am hoping to see Petter win the game and Tommi to develop the car while scoring points.
| johnfelstead | 10-10-2002 07:12 AM |
I would just like to point out that Ford has nothing to do with running the WRC programme other than providing funding.
Just like with Subaru and Prodrive, Ford employs MSport in cumbria to design, build and run the cars in the WRC.
Just like with Subaru and Prodrive, Ford employs MSport in cumbria to design, build and run the cars in the WRC.
| mtb_dude | 10-10-2002 10:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by johnfelstead [/i]
[B]yeh, on breakfast! :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: Isn't Michael's salary like 100 million a year at this point?
Edit: Oh so close . . . .
[IMG]http://images.forbes.com/images/2002/09/02/schumacher_chart_400x320.jpg[/IMG]
[B]yeh, on breakfast! :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: Isn't Michael's salary like 100 million a year at this point?
Edit: Oh so close . . . .
[IMG]http://images.forbes.com/images/2002/09/02/schumacher_chart_400x320.jpg[/IMG]
| mordy_2v | 10-10-2002 01:13 PM |
I think that both Tommi and Petter have shown that the subaru can be as fast or faster that the Pugs on either surface.
This years performances have been bogged down by both driver caused and mechanical failures. Oh, and don't forget that tire strategy is also a huge part.
Money is part of it, but this money has nothing to do with the cars, it has to do with line-ups. Pugeot has 3 sure shot guys that are argueably the best in the world. Burns may be the best on gravel/dirt, Gromholm is Mr Consistancy on any surface, and Panizzi is god on tarmac. Combined with a very stable car, you got someone in the top 3 every race, if not every one of them in the pocket.
Subaru has 1 superhero who's in a terrible slump of bad luck and mechanical failures, and 1 up and comer who's made the Pugs sweat almost every race.
Ford has 2 very consistent drivers in McCrash and Sainz and 1 very promising driver.
Thats just my 2 cents.
This years performances have been bogged down by both driver caused and mechanical failures. Oh, and don't forget that tire strategy is also a huge part.
Money is part of it, but this money has nothing to do with the cars, it has to do with line-ups. Pugeot has 3 sure shot guys that are argueably the best in the world. Burns may be the best on gravel/dirt, Gromholm is Mr Consistancy on any surface, and Panizzi is god on tarmac. Combined with a very stable car, you got someone in the top 3 every race, if not every one of them in the pocket.
Subaru has 1 superhero who's in a terrible slump of bad luck and mechanical failures, and 1 up and comer who's made the Pugs sweat almost every race.
Ford has 2 very consistent drivers in McCrash and Sainz and 1 very promising driver.
Thats just my 2 cents.
| dmitrik4 | 10-10-2002 02:01 PM |
agreed. when you couple the best collective group of drivers with arguably the best car and throw a huge budget at it, it's tough to beat. it will be interesting when Gronholm retires.
so Sainz is not staying at Ford? i thought i heard he would be willing to take a pay cut in order to stay.
i'll look forward to rooting for the Pugs next year as well!
so Sainz is not staying at Ford? i thought i heard he would be willing to take a pay cut in order to stay.
i'll look forward to rooting for the Pugs next year as well!
| AndyRoo | 10-10-2002 03:22 PM |
I dont think the problem is with the wheelbase of the car. Burnsie won the drivers championship last year in almost the same car. The problem is reliability. Its hard to drive a car hard when you dont have any confidence in it lasting more than a few turns.
Tommi is still world class, I think, as exemplified by Monte this year. He has just hit a sort of bad spell and been screwed over by an unreliable car.
Petters on a roll and I think SWRT will be championship material next year as long as the cars work correctly.
Its not like Subaru is poor, its just not their year. If they're smart, next year the car will be reliable and the driver's will be able to race with confidence in the car.
BTW, i only know of 2 ALMS results this year. At Laguna Seca, the Prodrive Ferrari got 1st in class, and at Wash. DC, the 550 got 3rd in class behind the 2 factory Vettes. Not bad.
Tommi is still world class, I think, as exemplified by Monte this year. He has just hit a sort of bad spell and been screwed over by an unreliable car.
Petters on a roll and I think SWRT will be championship material next year as long as the cars work correctly.
Its not like Subaru is poor, its just not their year. If they're smart, next year the car will be reliable and the driver's will be able to race with confidence in the car.
BTW, i only know of 2 ALMS results this year. At Laguna Seca, the Prodrive Ferrari got 1st in class, and at Wash. DC, the 550 got 3rd in class behind the 2 factory Vettes. Not bad.
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