| makofoto | 07-05-2004 02:04 PM |
Increasing Hood Scoop Efficiency for AX
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A recent article in AutoSpeed, last installment here: [url]http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2162/article.html[/url]
... pointed out that positive pressure under the hood ... from the radiator inlet ... decreases IC hood scoop efficiency. That in order to have a decent amount of air flow through the hood scoop ... one needs to make sure that one has good air extraction from under the engine bay. If you look at your WRX plastic under tray ... you will recognize attempts to improve that. If you look at an STI undertray ... you will see improvements.
Since our WRX cooling system seems very efficient ... how about blocking off part of the radiator inlet during AX runs. The cooling system should be O.K. for our short runs. By reducing air flow into the engine bay through the radiator inlet ... there should be less air pressure under the hood ... so that there is less pressure for the hood scoop air to push against, thus better IC cooling.
I'm going to try this next weekend ... it would be interesting if someone had an IC temperature meter to try this and report back. I'll try testing it with my remote infrared thermometer.
Would it be a good idea to go to a cooling system thermostat that opens earlier? What's available?
Further ... that Australian Impreza tuning book, can't find mine at the moment, says that their tests showed slightly better HP results using a short air intake ram in the engine compartment, sucking warm air VS. a cold air induction system that had longer plumbing. I wonder if that short ram, sucking relatively large amounts of air ... would also help reduce engine compartment air pressure ... to again help air through the IC hood scoop? A top fuel dragster sucks enough air to fill the Goodyear blimp during a 1/4 mile run ... so even our little but powerful engines suck a lot of air during a half to 3/4 mile AX run.
Another idea that I had to help IC cooling, was to set up a switch that would reverse run the radiator fans between runs. This should get some air flowing through the hood scoop ... to help cancel out the heat raising up from the turbo. Some people pull their AC relay ... so that when they turn on the AC ... it turns on the fans ... but this forces warm air up through the IC. It would be cool to be able to manually turn on the fans ... but have them extract hot air from the engine compartment.
... pointed out that positive pressure under the hood ... from the radiator inlet ... decreases IC hood scoop efficiency. That in order to have a decent amount of air flow through the hood scoop ... one needs to make sure that one has good air extraction from under the engine bay. If you look at your WRX plastic under tray ... you will recognize attempts to improve that. If you look at an STI undertray ... you will see improvements.
Since our WRX cooling system seems very efficient ... how about blocking off part of the radiator inlet during AX runs. The cooling system should be O.K. for our short runs. By reducing air flow into the engine bay through the radiator inlet ... there should be less air pressure under the hood ... so that there is less pressure for the hood scoop air to push against, thus better IC cooling.
I'm going to try this next weekend ... it would be interesting if someone had an IC temperature meter to try this and report back. I'll try testing it with my remote infrared thermometer.
Would it be a good idea to go to a cooling system thermostat that opens earlier? What's available?
Further ... that Australian Impreza tuning book, can't find mine at the moment, says that their tests showed slightly better HP results using a short air intake ram in the engine compartment, sucking warm air VS. a cold air induction system that had longer plumbing. I wonder if that short ram, sucking relatively large amounts of air ... would also help reduce engine compartment air pressure ... to again help air through the IC hood scoop? A top fuel dragster sucks enough air to fill the Goodyear blimp during a 1/4 mile run ... so even our little but powerful engines suck a lot of air during a half to 3/4 mile AX run.
Another idea that I had to help IC cooling, was to set up a switch that would reverse run the radiator fans between runs. This should get some air flowing through the hood scoop ... to help cancel out the heat raising up from the turbo. Some people pull their AC relay ... so that when they turn on the AC ... it turns on the fans ... but this forces warm air up through the IC. It would be cool to be able to manually turn on the fans ... but have them extract hot air from the engine compartment.
| jmott | 07-05-2004 03:45 PM |
you are worrying about all the wrong things if you are worried about your autocross times.
the extrta 1-5% of power you might extract by optimizing your cold air intake and/or intercooler temps will do next to nothing.
if you enjoy the engineering challenge, then by all means go for it, but if you wan't to get quicker times in autocross I would reccomend focusing on tires, spring rates, and driving.
fyi - the rally WRXs are organized as follows:
the radiator has a plastic shround after it which funnels ALL of the air coming into the radiator out of a hole in the top of the hood
the intercooler is up front where it gets direct airflow connected to an intake manifold mounted backwards
and the intake is a ram air one right there in the hood scoop. best of both worlds, cold air and short ram.
if you wanted the ultimate optimized intake/intercooler/radiator configuration, I would copy that. Would be a nice setup on a street modified WRX, as it would also reduce weight, and reduce the total intercooler/piping volume for quicker response.
the extrta 1-5% of power you might extract by optimizing your cold air intake and/or intercooler temps will do next to nothing.
if you enjoy the engineering challenge, then by all means go for it, but if you wan't to get quicker times in autocross I would reccomend focusing on tires, spring rates, and driving.
fyi - the rally WRXs are organized as follows:
the radiator has a plastic shround after it which funnels ALL of the air coming into the radiator out of a hole in the top of the hood
the intercooler is up front where it gets direct airflow connected to an intake manifold mounted backwards
and the intake is a ram air one right there in the hood scoop. best of both worlds, cold air and short ram.
if you wanted the ultimate optimized intake/intercooler/radiator configuration, I would copy that. Would be a nice setup on a street modified WRX, as it would also reduce weight, and reduce the total intercooler/piping volume for quicker response.
| makofoto | 07-05-2004 03:50 PM |
Oh I know that ... yes, it's just a fun engineering thing ... but nothing like knowing you are doing "everything" you can, in Street Modified! I'm not willing to do the fender extension thing ... yet!
I don't believe some/ANY of those WRC mods are allowed in SCCA Street Modified ... luckily!
Next weekends EVO School will be worth a lot more then all of these projects! :D
I don't believe some/ANY of those WRC mods are allowed in SCCA Street Modified ... luckily!
Next weekends EVO School will be worth a lot more then all of these projects! :D
| mykrrrr | 07-05-2004 10:40 PM |
How about bits of dry ice on the intercooler. Not alot to block air flow but just a few in the corners.
-mykr.
-mykr.
| makofoto | 07-05-2004 10:46 PM |
When I tried out drag racing we tried that .... covered my JDM STI IC with a thin layer of crushed dry ice ... I was able to chirp my tires in 2nd. :devil:
I just ordered a 160? thermostat to help protect my engine when I experiment ... here in warm Southern CA ...
I just ordered a 160? thermostat to help protect my engine when I experiment ... here in warm Southern CA ...
| drees | 07-06-2004 01:52 AM |
You'll have to be careful with that lower temp thermostat, the ECU closely monitors water temp and will adjust parameters based on it. I remember reading that this could be a bad thing, does't the stock thermo somewhere around 192*F? Having the thermostat open at 160* may lead the ECU to think that the car never warms up.
Also keep in mind that all else equal, a hotter engine should produce slightly more power than a cooler one (if neither detonates).
It'd be interesting to look at the differences between the STi and WRX undertrays, I know that the undertray was changed between the '02-03 and '04 models.
Also keep in mind that all else equal, a hotter engine should produce slightly more power than a cooler one (if neither detonates).
It'd be interesting to look at the differences between the STi and WRX undertrays, I know that the undertray was changed between the '02-03 and '04 models.
| makofoto | 07-06-2004 03:30 AM |
Work your way through this Thread: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5797416[/url]
... and it looks like I'll be O.K. The lower temp mod is common for high out put engines ... although mine is only at 300 CHP. ECU feels engine is warmed up by something like 70 degrees. The main practical problem with the cooler thermostat is that you will have trouble getting warm air for the heater ... but this isn't usually a problem in Southern CA. Stock thermo is only 172.
I agree that a hot engine is usually a more efficient engine ... but on the other hand, I know so many WRX's that have melted pistons ... that I don't mind cooling things down. I also have one step colder plugs and a high capacity fuel pump ... and I use 94 octane for my AX runs.
... and it looks like I'll be O.K. The lower temp mod is common for high out put engines ... although mine is only at 300 CHP. ECU feels engine is warmed up by something like 70 degrees. The main practical problem with the cooler thermostat is that you will have trouble getting warm air for the heater ... but this isn't usually a problem in Southern CA. Stock thermo is only 172.
I agree that a hot engine is usually a more efficient engine ... but on the other hand, I know so many WRX's that have melted pistons ... that I don't mind cooling things down. I also have one step colder plugs and a high capacity fuel pump ... and I use 94 octane for my AX runs.
| drees | 07-06-2004 03:46 AM |
Yeah, but isn't the reason for melting pistons detonation? Will a 10* decrease in water temps make much of a difference in detonation resistance, especially if you are running 94 octane in a car tuned and normally run on 91 octane? I just feel it's an unnecessary mod, but hey, it's your money. :D
Looking at that Crucial TStat thread, I fail to see how a lower temp tstat could keep an engine from heating up vs the stock tstat. Assuming similar operating conditions, the engine should produce the same amount of heat/energy/power during each dyno run. Unless the ability of the cooling system was upgraded at the same time, the temperature differential should be the same, and so should the time to return back to the starting temperature. For example, they claim that with the stock tstat the temps rose 17*C, but only 5*C with the Crucial TStat. Unless the Crucial TStat improved the cooling efficiency of the system by 3 times, the ending temp with the Crucial Tstat should also raise a similar amount unless they figured out how to make the radiator 3 times more efficient without touching it. If it can do that, I would love to get one with the stock opening temperature.
Edit: Rereading the thread, it appears that possibly the Crucial tstat responds more quickly than a stock tstat, anyone know if that is true? That would definitely lead to a lower temp rise after a dyno pull.
Back on topic: I would assume that some sort of ducting would be your best bet to keep the IC cool in-between runs, or how about water spray?
Looking at that Crucial TStat thread, I fail to see how a lower temp tstat could keep an engine from heating up vs the stock tstat. Assuming similar operating conditions, the engine should produce the same amount of heat/energy/power during each dyno run. Unless the ability of the cooling system was upgraded at the same time, the temperature differential should be the same, and so should the time to return back to the starting temperature. For example, they claim that with the stock tstat the temps rose 17*C, but only 5*C with the Crucial TStat. Unless the Crucial TStat improved the cooling efficiency of the system by 3 times, the ending temp with the Crucial Tstat should also raise a similar amount unless they figured out how to make the radiator 3 times more efficient without touching it. If it can do that, I would love to get one with the stock opening temperature.
Edit: Rereading the thread, it appears that possibly the Crucial tstat responds more quickly than a stock tstat, anyone know if that is true? That would definitely lead to a lower temp rise after a dyno pull.
Back on topic: I would assume that some sort of ducting would be your best bet to keep the IC cool in-between runs, or how about water spray?
| makofoto | 07-06-2004 04:18 AM |
I have a dual map EcuTek ... dyno tuned by Shiv ... for everyday driving I use the 91 octane low boost map, for AX I use the 94 octane (1 gal. toluene added to about 1/3rd tank of 91), 17 PSI map. I'm just doing a lot of little things to help prevent det ... hopefully together they will make a difference.
The idea behind the lower temp tstat would be for the coolant to circulate sooner (wouldn't it?) ... if I'm AX'ing with part of my radiator blocked off. Between runs I will of course have my hood up, and if necessary ... fans on. Lately I've been AX'ing with my IC Sprayer taped on ... uses about a 1/4 tank per run! I have to be careful not to drip water at the start line ... I think that is a no-no ...
If I'm running Azenis tires ... and we are spraying the tires between runs ... we also spray the IC.
I switched to a one step colder NGK Iriduim plug a few days ago ... the oem plugs (24K) that we pulled looked scary ... but according to this site: [url]http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/diagnosis.htm[/url] ... they were normal.
[IMG]http://images6.fotki.com/v86/photos/4/43793/1098813/OEMSparkplugCU-vi.jpg[/IMG]
The idea behind the lower temp tstat would be for the coolant to circulate sooner (wouldn't it?) ... if I'm AX'ing with part of my radiator blocked off. Between runs I will of course have my hood up, and if necessary ... fans on. Lately I've been AX'ing with my IC Sprayer taped on ... uses about a 1/4 tank per run! I have to be careful not to drip water at the start line ... I think that is a no-no ...
If I'm running Azenis tires ... and we are spraying the tires between runs ... we also spray the IC.
I switched to a one step colder NGK Iriduim plug a few days ago ... the oem plugs (24K) that we pulled looked scary ... but according to this site: [url]http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/diagnosis.htm[/url] ... they were normal.
[IMG]http://images6.fotki.com/v86/photos/4/43793/1098813/OEMSparkplugCU-vi.jpg[/IMG]
| anti.team | 07-06-2004 07:07 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] Lately I've been AX'ing with my IC Sprayer taped on ... uses about a 1/4 tank per run! I have to be careful not to drip water at the start line ... I think that is a no-no ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
It sure is a no-no. Same thing goes for dripping water on the course itself. I don't think that IC sprayers are allowed to be used on corse at all.
[B] Lately I've been AX'ing with my IC Sprayer taped on ... uses about a 1/4 tank per run! I have to be careful not to drip water at the start line ... I think that is a no-no ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
It sure is a no-no. Same thing goes for dripping water on the course itself. I don't think that IC sprayers are allowed to be used on corse at all.
| anti.team | 07-06-2004 07:10 AM |
Oh yeah, and about spraying your IC: I spray mine after a run and before the next run. Several people have questioned the effectiveness of spraying the IC at all. I agree that although it might not really make a difference in engine horsepower it helps me make several more "mental horsepower." Besides, it can't hurt!
| makofoto | 07-06-2004 12:04 PM |
Running with the IC on makes a big difference here in hot Southern CA ... once I'm moving ... the spray gets completely vaporized. I will try to get some Post Run temperature measurements with and w/o the sprayer on for our AX runs next weekend.
| Rebellion | 07-06-2004 02:22 PM |
IIRC - spraying oncourse is illegal.
| anti.team | 07-06-2004 02:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rebellion[/i]
[B] IIRC - spraying oncourse is illegal. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what I was saying. They don't want anything to be able to be dripped on course.
Even if it does completely evaporate, the potential for spills/drips still exists so it isn't allowed. And if you don't care about that maybe you'll care about this: you can be protested for it. It sure would suck to lose your win because your IC sprayer was on during your runs.
[B] IIRC - spraying oncourse is illegal. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what I was saying. They don't want anything to be able to be dripped on course.
Even if it does completely evaporate, the potential for spills/drips still exists so it isn't allowed. And if you don't care about that maybe you'll care about this: you can be protested for it. It sure would suck to lose your win because your IC sprayer was on during your runs.
| makofoto | 07-06-2004 02:41 PM |
Can someone point out the rule, page number in the '04 rule book. ... thanks ...
... if I can't spray ... making the IC air flow more efficient takes on more importance ...
I guess dry ice is O.K. since there are no liquids involved?
... if I can't spray ... making the IC air flow more efficient takes on more importance ...
I guess dry ice is O.K. since there are no liquids involved?
| anti.team | 07-06-2004 02:52 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] Can someone point out the rule, page number in the '04 rule book. ... thanks ...
... if I can't spray ... making the IC air flow more efficient takes on more importance ...
I guess dry ice is O.K. since there are no liquids involved? [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't have an '04 rule book, but there is a saying when it comes to what's allowed in autocross. It goes something like "If the rules don't specifically allow it, then it isn't allowed."
Under that school of thought, dry ice wouldn't be permitted either.
[B] Can someone point out the rule, page number in the '04 rule book. ... thanks ...
... if I can't spray ... making the IC air flow more efficient takes on more importance ...
I guess dry ice is O.K. since there are no liquids involved? [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't have an '04 rule book, but there is a saying when it comes to what's allowed in autocross. It goes something like "If the rules don't specifically allow it, then it isn't allowed."
Under that school of thought, dry ice wouldn't be permitted either.
| ellisnc | 07-06-2004 07:54 PM |
hopefully those aren't aluminum particles from your piston tops embedded into your plugs :(
| Zuffy | 07-06-2004 08:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anti.team [/i]
[B]I don't have an '04 rule book, but there is a saying when it comes to what's allowed in autocross. It goes something like "If the rules don't specifically allow it, then it isn't allowed."
Under that school of thought, dry ice wouldn't be permitted either. [/B][/QUOTE]
People spray water on their Azenis on hot days to cool them down, so I'd assume spraying IC's would be ok too as long as it is not done on the track.
[B]I don't have an '04 rule book, but there is a saying when it comes to what's allowed in autocross. It goes something like "If the rules don't specifically allow it, then it isn't allowed."
Under that school of thought, dry ice wouldn't be permitted either. [/B][/QUOTE]
People spray water on their Azenis on hot days to cool them down, so I'd assume spraying IC's would be ok too as long as it is not done on the track.
| anti.team | 07-07-2004 05:47 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zuffy[/i]
[B] People spray water on their Azenis on hot days to cool them down, so I'd assume spraying IC's would be ok too as long as it is not done on the track. [/B][/QUOTE]
Right. The legality of spraying while not on course isn't the question here. It's if having an IC sprayer on while on course is permitted.
[B] People spray water on their Azenis on hot days to cool them down, so I'd assume spraying IC's would be ok too as long as it is not done on the track. [/B][/QUOTE]
Right. The legality of spraying while not on course isn't the question here. It's if having an IC sprayer on while on course is permitted.
| solo-x | 07-07-2004 10:24 AM |
street prepared explicity prohibits air-to-air intercoolers from being cooled by anything other then the atmosphere. it also prohibits cool-cans and similar devices. prepared is the same way. modified hints at similar restrictions, but doesn't explicitly allow them. for a car to pass a technical inspection it must not leak excessive fluids. to be on the safe side, i would say spraying the intercooler during a run is illegal. you might want to get other opinions though. particularly dennis grant's opinion and a clarification from the SEB or SMAC.
nate
nate
| dwx | 07-07-2004 10:50 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x [/i]
[B]street prepared explicity prohibits air-to-air intercoolers from being cooled by anything other then the atmosphere. it also prohibits cool-cans and similar devices. prepared is the same way. modified hints at similar restrictions, but doesn't explicitly allow them. for a car to pass a technical inspection it must not leak excessive fluids. to be on the safe side, i would say spraying the intercooler during a run is illegal. you might want to get other opinions though. particularly dennis grant's opinion and a clarification from the SEB or SMAC.
nate [/B][/QUOTE]
14.10.C is the exact location of that rule. It's located under the "drivetrain" SP rule section though, and the SM rules explicitly state drivetrain is unrestricted...
Anyways, I would not use the sprayer on course, it is likely if someone saw it that they would tell you to stop using it. Not from a rules standpoint, but from a safety standpoint, and safety concerns will always override. I don't know of any national level SM people that are using external sprayers.
If you really want to reduce your intake charge and stop detonation, get a water injection kit and run that into your intercooler. Better yet, use race gas, which is fully legal.
[B]street prepared explicity prohibits air-to-air intercoolers from being cooled by anything other then the atmosphere. it also prohibits cool-cans and similar devices. prepared is the same way. modified hints at similar restrictions, but doesn't explicitly allow them. for a car to pass a technical inspection it must not leak excessive fluids. to be on the safe side, i would say spraying the intercooler during a run is illegal. you might want to get other opinions though. particularly dennis grant's opinion and a clarification from the SEB or SMAC.
nate [/B][/QUOTE]
14.10.C is the exact location of that rule. It's located under the "drivetrain" SP rule section though, and the SM rules explicitly state drivetrain is unrestricted...
Anyways, I would not use the sprayer on course, it is likely if someone saw it that they would tell you to stop using it. Not from a rules standpoint, but from a safety standpoint, and safety concerns will always override. I don't know of any national level SM people that are using external sprayers.
If you really want to reduce your intake charge and stop detonation, get a water injection kit and run that into your intercooler. Better yet, use race gas, which is fully legal.
| makofoto | 07-07-2004 11:36 AM |
Why race gas? The Suby ECU can only recognize up to 965 octane I believe.
I use enough toluene to bring my 91 octane up to 94 to 96 octane ... using my high octane/high boost Ecutek Map. Makes a huge difference.
What would race gas give me?
I use enough toluene to bring my 91 octane up to 94 to 96 octane ... using my high octane/high boost Ecutek Map. Makes a huge difference.
What would race gas give me?
| solo-x | 07-07-2004 11:49 AM |
my point was that it was explicitly forebidden for street prepared AND prepared. prepared being a higher prep level then even SM indicates to me that it would be illegal in SM as well. however, SM has zero restrictions on how you build your engine, therefore it could also be argued that as far as engine/drivetrain in SM, pretty much everything goes. thus a clarification from the SMAC is probably in order.
daddio's neon used an air-to-water intercooler that ran ice water from a resevoir in the trunk. small, lightweight, and very little intercooler plumbing so there was less volume to compress. turbo response would be WAY up and you'd have nearly the same effect of running with dry ice on your intercooler without any concerns about legality.
nate
daddio's neon used an air-to-water intercooler that ran ice water from a resevoir in the trunk. small, lightweight, and very little intercooler plumbing so there was less volume to compress. turbo response would be WAY up and you'd have nearly the same effect of running with dry ice on your intercooler without any concerns about legality.
nate
| dwx | 07-07-2004 12:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by solo-x [/i]
[B]my point was that it was explicitly forebidden for street prepared AND prepared. prepared being a higher prep level then even SM indicates to me that it would be illegal in SM as well. however, SM has zero restrictions on how you build your engine, therefore it could also be argued that as far as engine/drivetrain in SM, pretty much everything goes. thus a clarification from the SMAC is probably in order.
daddio's neon used an air-to-water intercooler that ran ice water from a resevoir in the trunk. small, lightweight, and very little intercooler plumbing so there was less volume to compress. turbo response would be WAY up and you'd have nearly the same effect of running with dry ice on your intercooler without any concerns about legality.
nate [/B][/QUOTE]
Chris Raglin runs the same setup in his 85 Civic hatch, he has a coleman cooler in the trunk. :) I think Bart Merriam?'s hatch used almost the same exact setup. For a dedicated autocross/drag car that may be the way to go. Unfortunately for daily driving you would want a heat exchanger up front and if you are tracking the car you'd really want one. For the SM car I'm building next year I've certainly considered it.
[B]my point was that it was explicitly forebidden for street prepared AND prepared. prepared being a higher prep level then even SM indicates to me that it would be illegal in SM as well. however, SM has zero restrictions on how you build your engine, therefore it could also be argued that as far as engine/drivetrain in SM, pretty much everything goes. thus a clarification from the SMAC is probably in order.
daddio's neon used an air-to-water intercooler that ran ice water from a resevoir in the trunk. small, lightweight, and very little intercooler plumbing so there was less volume to compress. turbo response would be WAY up and you'd have nearly the same effect of running with dry ice on your intercooler without any concerns about legality.
nate [/B][/QUOTE]
Chris Raglin runs the same setup in his 85 Civic hatch, he has a coleman cooler in the trunk. :) I think Bart Merriam?'s hatch used almost the same exact setup. For a dedicated autocross/drag car that may be the way to go. Unfortunately for daily driving you would want a heat exchanger up front and if you are tracking the car you'd really want one. For the SM car I'm building next year I've certainly considered it.
| jmott | 07-07-2004 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]Oh I know that ... yes, it's just a fun engineering thing ... but nothing like knowing you are doing "everything" you can, in Street Modified! I'm not willing to do the fender extension thing ... yet!
I don't believe some/ANY of those WRC mods are allowed in SCCA Street Modified ... luckily!
Next weekends EVO School will be worth a lot more then all of these projects! :D [/B][/QUOTE]
sure those mods are legal.
turning the intake manifold around would be legal without a doubt.
afermarket hoods are legal.
pretty sure you could duplicate the WRC engine layout exactly under SM rules.
[B]Oh I know that ... yes, it's just a fun engineering thing ... but nothing like knowing you are doing "everything" you can, in Street Modified! I'm not willing to do the fender extension thing ... yet!
I don't believe some/ANY of those WRC mods are allowed in SCCA Street Modified ... luckily!
Next weekends EVO School will be worth a lot more then all of these projects! :D [/B][/QUOTE]
sure those mods are legal.
turning the intake manifold around would be legal without a doubt.
afermarket hoods are legal.
pretty sure you could duplicate the WRC engine layout exactly under SM rules.
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 02:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx[/i]
[B] Anyways, I would not use the sprayer on course, it is likely if someone saw it that they would tell you to stop using it. Not from a rules standpoint, but from a safety standpoint, and safety concerns will always override[/B][/QUOTE]
So then evos can be asked to leave?
[B] Anyways, I would not use the sprayer on course, it is likely if someone saw it that they would tell you to stop using it. Not from a rules standpoint, but from a safety standpoint, and safety concerns will always override[/B][/QUOTE]
So then evos can be asked to leave?
| anti.team | 07-07-2004 02:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl[/i]
[B] So then evos can be asked to leave? [/B][/QUOTE]
Only if they're using the IC sprayer.
[B] So then evos can be asked to leave? [/B][/QUOTE]
Only if they're using the IC sprayer.
| dwx | 07-07-2004 02:38 PM |
You could mostly do it. The problem though is the WRC engine is moved a little bit, which would be impossible to do with a standard Impreza trans and remain legal. But...you could use the sequential 6spd trans out of the WRC car and then things would be fine. :) They also completely remove the front radiator support to make room for the IC, and just weld a bar across the front, which isn't SM legal.
As for the EVO, I think you can turn the waterspray off can't you?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott [/i]
[B]sure those mods are legal.
turning the intake manifold around would be legal without a doubt.
afermarket hoods are legal.
pretty sure you could duplicate the WRC engine layout exactly under SM rules. [/B][/QUOTE]
As for the EVO, I think you can turn the waterspray off can't you?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott [/i]
[B]sure those mods are legal.
turning the intake manifold around would be legal without a doubt.
afermarket hoods are legal.
pretty sure you could duplicate the WRC engine layout exactly under SM rules. [/B][/QUOTE]
| anti.team | 07-07-2004 02:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx[/i]
[B] As for the EVO, I think you can turn the waterspray off can't you? [/B][/QUOTE]
It's not always on. From what I understand, it's a momentary button that must be pressed in order for the sprayer to spray. Don't push the button and you're fine.
[B] As for the EVO, I think you can turn the waterspray off can't you? [/B][/QUOTE]
It's not always on. From what I understand, it's a momentary button that must be pressed in order for the sprayer to spray. Don't push the button and you're fine.
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 02:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dwx[/i]
[B] As for the EVO, I think you can turn the waterspray off can't you? [/B][/QUOTE]
You probably can but how would you prove someone kept it off? If its illegal to use then it should be illegal to have on the car. If its legal to have on a car as long as you dont use it then it should be ok for an stx car to have on installed as long as they promise not to use it on course right?
And then how do you explain to someone they are not allowed to use stock functions of a car? It does not spill excessive fluids on the ground, I dont see it being any more of a saftey issue then haveing your ac on during a run.
[B] As for the EVO, I think you can turn the waterspray off can't you? [/B][/QUOTE]
You probably can but how would you prove someone kept it off? If its illegal to use then it should be illegal to have on the car. If its legal to have on a car as long as you dont use it then it should be ok for an stx car to have on installed as long as they promise not to use it on course right?
And then how do you explain to someone they are not allowed to use stock functions of a car? It does not spill excessive fluids on the ground, I dont see it being any more of a saftey issue then haveing your ac on during a run.
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anti.team[/i]
[B] It's not always on. From what I understand, it's a momentary button that must be pressed in order for the sprayer to spray. Don't push the button and you're fine. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats an sti the evo has an autospray function.
[B] It's not always on. From what I understand, it's a momentary button that must be pressed in order for the sprayer to spray. Don't push the button and you're fine. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats an sti the evo has an autospray function.
| anti.team | 07-07-2004 03:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl[/i]
[B] If its legal to have on a car as long as you dont use it then it should be ok for an stx car to have on installed as long as they promise not to use it on course right? [/B][/QUOTE]
This is an interesting question. Can anyone think of things that are alright to have installed on a car as long as they're not used during a run.
Ummmmm... an airjack maybe?
[B] If its legal to have on a car as long as you dont use it then it should be ok for an stx car to have on installed as long as they promise not to use it on course right? [/B][/QUOTE]
This is an interesting question. Can anyone think of things that are alright to have installed on a car as long as they're not used during a run.
Ummmmm... an airjack maybe?
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 03:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anti.team[/i]
[B] This is an interesting question. Can anyone think of things that are alright to have installed on a car as long as they're not used during a run.
[/B][/QUOTE]
There arent any if its illegal to use on a car for autox or for a class its illegal to be on the car. That is my point.
If its no legal for a evo or sti or a wrx with a sprayer on the car to use the sprayer on course regardless of the class then it is illegal for that car to run period. You cant just say "dont worry I wont touch that switch" any more then you can have an active suspenion on st and say you promise not to use it.
[B] This is an interesting question. Can anyone think of things that are alright to have installed on a car as long as they're not used during a run.
[/B][/QUOTE]
There arent any if its illegal to use on a car for autox or for a class its illegal to be on the car. That is my point.
If its no legal for a evo or sti or a wrx with a sprayer on the car to use the sprayer on course regardless of the class then it is illegal for that car to run period. You cant just say "dont worry I wont touch that switch" any more then you can have an active suspenion on st and say you promise not to use it.
| dwx | 07-07-2004 03:11 PM |
Uhh there is a big difference between putting something aftermarket on the car and saying you aren't going to use it versus it being on there stock... Technically under ESP rules, an ESP EVO cannot use the sprayer during their runs, but I'm sure some do. Sure you could exclude the STI/EVO from SP but I don't see that happening because of the water sprayer.
| anti.team | 07-07-2004 03:14 PM |
So are you not allowed to run cars that come stock with air suspensions (i.e. Toureg, Phaeton, A8, etc.) just like you can't run cars with aftermarket air suspensions (like the Praxxis kit)?
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 03:15 PM |
So its legal in stock? I havent seen any rules that say you cant use a stock part.
| anti.team | 07-07-2004 03:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl[/i]
[B] So its legal in stock? I havent seen any rules that say you cant use a stock part. [/B][/QUOTE]
It's still a safetly issue though.
[B] So its legal in stock? I havent seen any rules that say you cant use a stock part. [/B][/QUOTE]
It's still a safetly issue though.
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anti.team[/i]
[B] So are you not allowed to run cars that come stock with air suspensions (i.e. Toureg, Phaeton, A8, etc.) ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course you can run those cars because the active suspension is a stock part....starting to get my point yet?
[B] So are you not allowed to run cars that come stock with air suspensions (i.e. Toureg, Phaeton, A8, etc.) ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course you can run those cars because the active suspension is a stock part....starting to get my point yet?
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anti.team[/i]
[B] It's still a safetly issue though. [/B][/QUOTE]
How much water do you think gets to the ground afte it is sprayed thinly over an intercooler, drips through all the fins, drops over a hot transmission, to finally hit the ground(talking about imprezas not evos obviously)? Have you ever seen a saftey issue presented from this?
Currently the rule needs clarification, there is nothing in it to say it is legal out of stock class, but there is no good reason it should be illegal. Its no more of a saftey concern then spraying down your tires, radiator, intercooler, engine bay etc.... right before a run. Its not like its spraying oil or gasoline its just water.
[B] It's still a safetly issue though. [/B][/QUOTE]
How much water do you think gets to the ground afte it is sprayed thinly over an intercooler, drips through all the fins, drops over a hot transmission, to finally hit the ground(talking about imprezas not evos obviously)? Have you ever seen a saftey issue presented from this?
Currently the rule needs clarification, there is nothing in it to say it is legal out of stock class, but there is no good reason it should be illegal. Its no more of a saftey concern then spraying down your tires, radiator, intercooler, engine bay etc.... right before a run. Its not like its spraying oil or gasoline its just water.
| jmott | 07-07-2004 03:35 PM |
omg we have to ban all cars with windshield sprayers
| Snakebot | 07-07-2004 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anti.team[/i]
[B] So are you not allowed to run cars that come stock with air suspensions (i.e. Toureg, Phaeton, A8, etc.) just like you can't run cars with aftermarket air suspensions (like the Praxxis kit)? [/B][/QUOTE]
For the stock classes, if the car came with a stock air suspension or active suspension, then it's legal. Although you're allowed to replace the shocks/struts with aftermarket ones, I'm 99% sure that you can't replace a normal strut/shock setup with an air/active setup.
However, if the air/active suspension is available as a stock option and you have the same year model, you can install the stock parts. If the stock active suspension setup is a part of an option package, you have to install the whole package.
For example you want to install the active suspension that's available on the '04 C5 Anniversary Corvette on your regular '04 C5. You can't just install the suspension, you have to install every part that differentiates the Anniversary C5 from the regular C5...this includes the paint. Basically, you're building an Anniversary C5.
Aftermarket active suspension, i.e. Tein's EDFC, is NOT legal in the ST classes so I seriously doubt that the Praxis system would be legal either. But since the Stock rules carry over to ST, you could used the same C5 senario to install a factory active suspension package.
I don't think aftermarket active suspension is legal for SP either. But SP does have a update/backdate rule for stock parts, so you can just install the active suspension components from our C5 example. The only exception is the two cars have to be listed on the same line in the SP appendix in the rulebook.
For the Mod classes, you can pretty much do anything you want.
[B] So are you not allowed to run cars that come stock with air suspensions (i.e. Toureg, Phaeton, A8, etc.) just like you can't run cars with aftermarket air suspensions (like the Praxxis kit)? [/B][/QUOTE]
For the stock classes, if the car came with a stock air suspension or active suspension, then it's legal. Although you're allowed to replace the shocks/struts with aftermarket ones, I'm 99% sure that you can't replace a normal strut/shock setup with an air/active setup.
However, if the air/active suspension is available as a stock option and you have the same year model, you can install the stock parts. If the stock active suspension setup is a part of an option package, you have to install the whole package.
For example you want to install the active suspension that's available on the '04 C5 Anniversary Corvette on your regular '04 C5. You can't just install the suspension, you have to install every part that differentiates the Anniversary C5 from the regular C5...this includes the paint. Basically, you're building an Anniversary C5.
Aftermarket active suspension, i.e. Tein's EDFC, is NOT legal in the ST classes so I seriously doubt that the Praxis system would be legal either. But since the Stock rules carry over to ST, you could used the same C5 senario to install a factory active suspension package.
I don't think aftermarket active suspension is legal for SP either. But SP does have a update/backdate rule for stock parts, so you can just install the active suspension components from our C5 example. The only exception is the two cars have to be listed on the same line in the SP appendix in the rulebook.
For the Mod classes, you can pretty much do anything you want.
| Silver Bullet 02 | 07-07-2004 05:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto [/i]
[B]I have a dual map EcuTek ... dyno tuned by Shiv ... for everyday driving I use the 91 octane low boost map, for AX I use the 94 octane (1 gal. toluene added to about 1/3rd tank of 91), 17 PSI map. I'm just doing a lot of little things to help prevent det ... hopefully together they will make a difference.
The idea behind the lower temp tstat would be for the coolant to circulate sooner (wouldn't it?) ... if I'm AX'ing with part of my radiator blocked off. Between runs I will of course have my hood up, and if necessary ... fans on. Lately I've been AX'ing with my IC Sprayer taped on ... uses about a 1/4 tank per run! I have to be careful not to drip water at the start line ... I think that is a no-no ...
If I'm running Azenis tires ... and we are spraying the tires between runs ... we also spray the IC.
I switched to a one step colder NGK Iriduim plug a few days ago ... the oem plugs (24K) that we pulled looked scary ... but according to this site: [url]http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/diagnosis.htm[/url] ... they were normal.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Are you saying you run Azenis and you run boost control? If I interpret that right then you are losing around 2 seconds in SM because you are not running R-compounds or you are running illegally in STX. Why worry about the 0.1 second cooling your IC gives if you are already losing 2 seconds by not running race rubber.
Or did I misinterpret your statement above:confused:
BTW, I ice my IC between runs so when I head to the starting line the IC is at around 50F. No heat soak problems at the start. If you ice the IC you can feel the outlet side of the IC with your hand and cold to the touch while the car is running.
[B]I have a dual map EcuTek ... dyno tuned by Shiv ... for everyday driving I use the 91 octane low boost map, for AX I use the 94 octane (1 gal. toluene added to about 1/3rd tank of 91), 17 PSI map. I'm just doing a lot of little things to help prevent det ... hopefully together they will make a difference.
The idea behind the lower temp tstat would be for the coolant to circulate sooner (wouldn't it?) ... if I'm AX'ing with part of my radiator blocked off. Between runs I will of course have my hood up, and if necessary ... fans on. Lately I've been AX'ing with my IC Sprayer taped on ... uses about a 1/4 tank per run! I have to be careful not to drip water at the start line ... I think that is a no-no ...
If I'm running Azenis tires ... and we are spraying the tires between runs ... we also spray the IC.
I switched to a one step colder NGK Iriduim plug a few days ago ... the oem plugs (24K) that we pulled looked scary ... but according to this site: [url]http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/technical/diagnosis.htm[/url] ... they were normal.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Are you saying you run Azenis and you run boost control? If I interpret that right then you are losing around 2 seconds in SM because you are not running R-compounds or you are running illegally in STX. Why worry about the 0.1 second cooling your IC gives if you are already losing 2 seconds by not running race rubber.
Or did I misinterpret your statement above:confused:
BTW, I ice my IC between runs so when I head to the starting line the IC is at around 50F. No heat soak problems at the start. If you ice the IC you can feel the outlet side of the IC with your hand and cold to the touch while the car is running.
| afpdl | 07-07-2004 05:47 PM |
Hes using azenis in sm because they are cheaper and hes still learning to drive better. He knows that he is losing alot of time due to no r compounds hes just looking for other little things he can do.
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