| gtguy | 09-04-2003 12:55 PM |
Monza picks, and Ferrari's gettin' kinda wanky....
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First, the picks. Note my opinion that the winner of Monza will win the Drivers' Championship:
1. Montoya
2. Raikkonen
3. M. Schumacher
4. R. Schumacher
5. Coulthard
6. R. Barrichello
7. DaMatta (power, baby...Monza's about the power)
8. Frentzen (new engine with more power...if it lasts)
Monza and Indy are both high power, good aero package tracks. I just think that the Williams/Michelin combo is pretty formidable right now. Renault, given their power deficiencies, will not really be in the running. They might sneak someone into a top eight spot.
Ferrari will win at Suzuka, a track that still favors the best overall package, which is the Ferrari. And you KNOW Bridgestone has a Suzuka-spec tire all ready to go.
And speaking of tires, Ferrari is apparently threatening to protest the entire season's results, based on their knowledge that Michelin has been using an "illegal" tire. Now, Michelin claims that their tire has been in compliance since 2001, and that nobody was saying a word when Ferrari was beating them like a gong. But they have made a new tire for Monza that is in compliance with the new FIA measuring standard, which is that the tire has to conform to the 270mm measurement, post-race as well as pre.
Now, we all know there was a reason Michelin runners weren't changing the fronts, and Michelin knows it too, which is why they're making a new tire, rather than sticking to their "this tire is legal" guns. Still...
Now, Ferrari won't protest the entire season if they are in their right minds, but still...they're getting kind of wanky with this tire thing, IMHO. Make your package better, and shut up.
The real question is: Are Michelin cheating? As the rule looks, no. Their tires are 270mm cold, pre-race. How the tire deforms and expands during the race isn't really covered by the F1 tire regulation. So, IMHO, Michelin is doing what every F1 team has been doing since time immemorial, which is making the rules work for them, such as when Ferrari had traction control embedded in reams of computer code. "Why no, that's a brake assist program..."
Michelin's contention is that the new measurment standard constitutes a new rule, and needs the approval of the teams and should, at best, be instituted for next season. I agree, even though I would love for Schumacher to win no. 6.
Kevin
1. Montoya
2. Raikkonen
3. M. Schumacher
4. R. Schumacher
5. Coulthard
6. R. Barrichello
7. DaMatta (power, baby...Monza's about the power)
8. Frentzen (new engine with more power...if it lasts)
Monza and Indy are both high power, good aero package tracks. I just think that the Williams/Michelin combo is pretty formidable right now. Renault, given their power deficiencies, will not really be in the running. They might sneak someone into a top eight spot.
Ferrari will win at Suzuka, a track that still favors the best overall package, which is the Ferrari. And you KNOW Bridgestone has a Suzuka-spec tire all ready to go.
And speaking of tires, Ferrari is apparently threatening to protest the entire season's results, based on their knowledge that Michelin has been using an "illegal" tire. Now, Michelin claims that their tire has been in compliance since 2001, and that nobody was saying a word when Ferrari was beating them like a gong. But they have made a new tire for Monza that is in compliance with the new FIA measuring standard, which is that the tire has to conform to the 270mm measurement, post-race as well as pre.
Now, we all know there was a reason Michelin runners weren't changing the fronts, and Michelin knows it too, which is why they're making a new tire, rather than sticking to their "this tire is legal" guns. Still...
Now, Ferrari won't protest the entire season if they are in their right minds, but still...they're getting kind of wanky with this tire thing, IMHO. Make your package better, and shut up.
The real question is: Are Michelin cheating? As the rule looks, no. Their tires are 270mm cold, pre-race. How the tire deforms and expands during the race isn't really covered by the F1 tire regulation. So, IMHO, Michelin is doing what every F1 team has been doing since time immemorial, which is making the rules work for them, such as when Ferrari had traction control embedded in reams of computer code. "Why no, that's a brake assist program..."
Michelin's contention is that the new measurment standard constitutes a new rule, and needs the approval of the teams and should, at best, be instituted for next season. I agree, even though I would love for Schumacher to win no. 6.
Kevin
| Dussander | 09-04-2003 01:21 PM |
I have no picks because I can not stop long enough to make a good analysis of it all and it is much easier to just vote who I WANT to win, which is JPM.
I pretty much agree with Kevin on the tires. The idea that the tread width has to be set pre, during and post race is silly and nearly impossible to monitor. I recall Bridgestone or Ferrari bitching about the Michelin drivers using the sidewalls in a turn.
:rolleyes:
I pretty much agree with Kevin on the tires. The idea that the tread width has to be set pre, during and post race is silly and nearly impossible to monitor. I recall Bridgestone or Ferrari bitching about the Michelin drivers using the sidewalls in a turn.
:rolleyes:
| fuzzy13 | 09-04-2003 01:51 PM |
This tire situation is getting kinda of wanky. I wonder if the same debte would be going on if they were still using slicks?
Monza goning to be a very interesting race.
Monza goning to be a very interesting race.
| gtguy | 09-04-2003 02:17 PM |
...and I just realized that I'm a week early with the picks. For some reason, I lost track of time and thought that Monza was THIS weekend. :rolleyes:
Kevin
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 09-05-2003 01:43 AM |
holyy crap, scared me cause i didnt get my email notice.
anyway, im waiting a little to see what happens. I hope Williams does well, just to piss off the FIA and Bridgestone. Toyota will also do well.
anyway, im waiting a little to see what happens. I hope Williams does well, just to piss off the FIA and Bridgestone. Toyota will also do well.
| LordBass | 09-05-2003 09:39 AM |
I'm about ready to nod off with two three-week breaks & Hungary in the middle.. Was nice to see Alonso win though, as dull as that track is. Mercifully with Spa back in '04 the August seventh-inning-stretch will be less sleep-inducing.
As for Monza, I'm in for:
1. R. Schumacher
2. Raikkonen
3. Montoya
4. M. Schumacher
5. Coulthard
6. R. Barrichello
7. Panis
8. Alonso
Agreed that Williams/Michelin will be the act to beat, tho interesting how Raikkonen (and sometimes Coulthard) have made a steathly climb up the order in several races this year.
I'd like to see M. Sch pick up his sixth just because, well.. he's made it this far.. but will be good to see another champion, too. Here's hoping he doesn't toss it at the first chicane and cry in the hedge like the former 'Ice Man' in '99 (no, not Val Kilmer ;) ).
Overall this has been the most interesting season since I started watching every race in '99. Nice that there's more to watch than which driver Diniz will take out this week, or counting the number of times Alex Yoong goes off. :D
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[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
As for Monza, I'm in for:
1. R. Schumacher
2. Raikkonen
3. Montoya
4. M. Schumacher
5. Coulthard
6. R. Barrichello
7. Panis
8. Alonso
Agreed that Williams/Michelin will be the act to beat, tho interesting how Raikkonen (and sometimes Coulthard) have made a steathly climb up the order in several races this year.
I'd like to see M. Sch pick up his sixth just because, well.. he's made it this far.. but will be good to see another champion, too. Here's hoping he doesn't toss it at the first chicane and cry in the hedge like the former 'Ice Man' in '99 (no, not Val Kilmer ;) ).
Overall this has been the most interesting season since I started watching every race in '99. Nice that there's more to watch than which driver Diniz will take out this week, or counting the number of times Alex Yoong goes off. :D
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
| Dr. WOT | 09-05-2003 12:58 PM |
I'm not sure what to make of this whole tire situation either, but it's somewhat incriminating that Michelin did go out of their way to develop a new tire. That is neither easy or inexpensive so they obvioulsy felt it was necessary.
Now did they do this because they knew they were busted, or because they knew that leaving the decision up the Italian race stewards would not suicide?
Kev, I thought Monza was this weekend too. :mad: I feel like I waiting for a WRC event!
Now did they do this because they knew they were busted, or because they knew that leaving the decision up the Italian race stewards would not suicide?
Kev, I thought Monza was this weekend too. :mad: I feel like I waiting for a WRC event!
| gtguy | 09-05-2003 02:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dr. WOT [/i]
[B]I'm not sure what to make of this whole tire situation either, but it's somewhat incriminating that Michelin did go out of their way to develop a new tire. That is neither easy or inexpensive so they obvioulsy felt it was necessary.
Now did they do this because they knew they were busted, or because they knew that leaving the decision up the Italian race stewards would not suicide?
Kev, I thought Monza was this weekend too. :mad: I feel like I waiting for a WRC event! [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: And as much fun as F1 Decade is, they are NOT as satisfying.
I agree on the Michelin thing. It seems to me that if they felt that their tire were fully legal, they would have said "The tire is legal, so shut up. We're running it." Now, they would argue that development of a new tire is pre-emptive, as they don't want their teams to all be disqualified at Monza, but you have to figure that all of those Michelin guys weren't changing the fronts for a reason...
Kevin
[B]I'm not sure what to make of this whole tire situation either, but it's somewhat incriminating that Michelin did go out of their way to develop a new tire. That is neither easy or inexpensive so they obvioulsy felt it was necessary.
Now did they do this because they knew they were busted, or because they knew that leaving the decision up the Italian race stewards would not suicide?
Kev, I thought Monza was this weekend too. :mad: I feel like I waiting for a WRC event! [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: And as much fun as F1 Decade is, they are NOT as satisfying.
I agree on the Michelin thing. It seems to me that if they felt that their tire were fully legal, they would have said "The tire is legal, so shut up. We're running it." Now, they would argue that development of a new tire is pre-emptive, as they don't want their teams to all be disqualified at Monza, but you have to figure that all of those Michelin guys weren't changing the fronts for a reason...
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 09-05-2003 03:08 PM |
Maybe the F1 teams told Michelin to get their butts to work so they could race at Monza?
Not sure, just a thought.
If i was Williams, id tell Michelin they better have a tire for Monza, whatever the FIA rules.
Not sure, just a thought.
If i was Williams, id tell Michelin they better have a tire for Monza, whatever the FIA rules.
| Arioch | 09-05-2003 05:30 PM |
The tire issue is a farce. Ferrari (and mostly Ross Braun) are looking like a bunch of whining beyotches! Someone (don't remember if it was a Ferrari or Bridgestone rep) said that they knew for a while that the tires were too wide, but didn't say anything because they had no proof. Now, all of a sudden they aren't winning the constructors championship and are about to lose the drivers championship next weekend and now all of a sudden they have the proof?!?! What proof? A few pics of a Williams? Anyone with decent photoshop skills can make the tire as wide as they want and make it look real (I can't. I have no photoshop skilz).
Quityerbichin! :furious: :furious: :furious:
Now, on to the predictions...
1) Raikonnen - the McLarens have been fast in testing this week. Kimi will be tied with Juan for the lead of the championship.
2) JPM - also running strong. He'll have a long pitstop and will lost the lead to Kimi at that point. After the long pit, he won't be able to pass KR
3) Woobins - Will qualify well, but again, the Ferrari's will lose several places at the start. What happened to their launch control?
4) Ralf - Will spin again in the opening lap, will fall to the back of the pack, and fight his way back up.
5) DC - 2 stopper again, everyone eles on a 3. Just doesn't have the speed (like usual).
6) Trulli
7) Alfonso - He'll try to brake-check his teammate, but unlike DC, Trulli will be able to get past him and not end up in the gravel trap.
8) Webber - why not?
MS will spin out going past JV (lap traffic) and will get completely stuck in a gravel trap/tire barier.
-dave
Quityerbichin! :furious: :furious: :furious:
Now, on to the predictions...
1) Raikonnen - the McLarens have been fast in testing this week. Kimi will be tied with Juan for the lead of the championship.
2) JPM - also running strong. He'll have a long pitstop and will lost the lead to Kimi at that point. After the long pit, he won't be able to pass KR
3) Woobins - Will qualify well, but again, the Ferrari's will lose several places at the start. What happened to their launch control?
4) Ralf - Will spin again in the opening lap, will fall to the back of the pack, and fight his way back up.
5) DC - 2 stopper again, everyone eles on a 3. Just doesn't have the speed (like usual).
6) Trulli
7) Alfonso - He'll try to brake-check his teammate, but unlike DC, Trulli will be able to get past him and not end up in the gravel trap.
8) Webber - why not?
MS will spin out going past JV (lap traffic) and will get completely stuck in a gravel trap/tire barier.
-dave
| Snowphun | 09-05-2003 09:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arioch [/i]
[B]MS will spin out going past JV (lap traffic) and will get completely stuck in a gravel trap/tire barier.
[/B][/QUOTE] That's a very specific prediction, know something we don't? :p
[B]MS will spin out going past JV (lap traffic) and will get completely stuck in a gravel trap/tire barier.
[/B][/QUOTE] That's a very specific prediction, know something we don't? :p
| johnfelstead | 09-07-2003 07:30 AM |
I think some of you are missing the point. Michelin made tyres to suit the regulations. The FIA has changed the regulations for this race onwards, Michelin has done nothing against the rules as they were written.
The old regs were that the tyre had to be measured before the race, the michelin tyre conformed 100%. Now the FIA say the tyre has to be measured after the race, the curent muchelin wont pass as its sidewall flexes more than the bridgestone so wears more up the edges.
The two manufacturers have diferent tyre construction phylosophies and the FIA [b]CHANGING THE RULES[/b] four races from the end of the season is a disgrace.
If Ferrari/schuey win this years championship because of Michelin tyres being poor from now on, it will be worthless in my eyes.
The FIA are a disgrace right now for this, plus the manouvering they are doing to manipulate the WRC teams into running 16 events.
The old regs were that the tyre had to be measured before the race, the michelin tyre conformed 100%. Now the FIA say the tyre has to be measured after the race, the curent muchelin wont pass as its sidewall flexes more than the bridgestone so wears more up the edges.
The two manufacturers have diferent tyre construction phylosophies and the FIA [b]CHANGING THE RULES[/b] four races from the end of the season is a disgrace.
If Ferrari/schuey win this years championship because of Michelin tyres being poor from now on, it will be worthless in my eyes.
The FIA are a disgrace right now for this, plus the manouvering they are doing to manipulate the WRC teams into running 16 events.
| gtguy | 09-07-2003 10:48 AM |
John, I think everyone agrees that the tire situation is silly, and that the way the FIA has decided to in effect change the rules because of carping from one team is, in the words of the (nameless...ahem) thread starter, "wanky." :lol:
Michelin has indeed conformed to the rules. The FIA should have written the rule so that a tire's behavior under load and the effects on its width should have been taken into account. IMHO, they can write such a rule in the off-season and, as it is a rules change, submit it to the teams for approval.
The good thing is I don't think the Michelin tire change will affect anything. The Michelin runners don't appear to have lost any speed, judging from Monza testing. Though testing isn't particularly illustrative in most cases, I think that Monza, marking the first outing after the summer testing ban, can yield some useful information.
M. Schumacher was fastest on days 2 and 3, but not by a lot, which leads me to suspect that Monza is going to be an excellent race, because:
It's a high-speed track. Williams has plenty of power and great tires. The Ferrari has power, though not as much as the Williams, but superior aerodynamics. The McLaren is going to come third best, unfortunately for Raikkonen's championship hopes.
I'm just hoping for no DNFs, crashes or silly stuff. Let's decide it on the track, not in the boardroom or rules committee meeting.
Kevin
Michelin has indeed conformed to the rules. The FIA should have written the rule so that a tire's behavior under load and the effects on its width should have been taken into account. IMHO, they can write such a rule in the off-season and, as it is a rules change, submit it to the teams for approval.
The good thing is I don't think the Michelin tire change will affect anything. The Michelin runners don't appear to have lost any speed, judging from Monza testing. Though testing isn't particularly illustrative in most cases, I think that Monza, marking the first outing after the summer testing ban, can yield some useful information.
M. Schumacher was fastest on days 2 and 3, but not by a lot, which leads me to suspect that Monza is going to be an excellent race, because:
It's a high-speed track. Williams has plenty of power and great tires. The Ferrari has power, though not as much as the Williams, but superior aerodynamics. The McLaren is going to come third best, unfortunately for Raikkonen's championship hopes.
I'm just hoping for no DNFs, crashes or silly stuff. Let's decide it on the track, not in the boardroom or rules committee meeting.
Kevin
| Snowphun | 09-07-2003 11:33 AM |
Maybe I missed it: is Michelin contesting the changes? I understand they've made tire that meet the new rules, but maybe they're fighting to keep the current tire leagal?
Paul
Paul
| boxerT | 09-07-2003 09:02 PM |
Call me crazy, but I think BAR will sneak into top 8. Why, their new aero package is good and in testing, Jaques ran the 5th fastest lap time of them all. Go Jenson!
| grandpa rex | 09-08-2003 06:46 AM |
It's very refreshing to hear from Mr. Felstead. Maybe I've been asleep, but it seems as though you've been on an extended holiday here John.
One of the things that I love and hate most about F1 is the political side. This tire deal is pretty fun to watch.
Clearly, Brawn and Ferrari have something. However, I believe that their recourse should be to kick some Bridgestone ass rather than whining about Michelin's reading of and adaptation to the rules as written.
I will, however, withhold my picks until later in the week to see any further developments.
Hey John, any new videos?
One of the things that I love and hate most about F1 is the political side. This tire deal is pretty fun to watch.
Clearly, Brawn and Ferrari have something. However, I believe that their recourse should be to kick some Bridgestone ass rather than whining about Michelin's reading of and adaptation to the rules as written.
I will, however, withhold my picks until later in the week to see any further developments.
Hey John, any new videos?
| Arioch | 09-08-2003 10:52 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Snowphun [/i]
[B] That's a very specific prediction, know something we don't? :p [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope, just my usual sillyness in F1 predictions. You're lucky I didn't throw the "Ass Itch Supression System" this time! ;)
I'm still sticking with the order in which they'll finish the race on sunday, just maybe not in the way I said. ;)
-dave
[B] That's a very specific prediction, know something we don't? :p [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope, just my usual sillyness in F1 predictions. You're lucky I didn't throw the "Ass Itch Supression System" this time! ;)
I'm still sticking with the order in which they'll finish the race on sunday, just maybe not in the way I said. ;)
-dave
| johnfelstead | 09-08-2003 05:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grandpa rex [/i]
[B]It's very refreshing to hear from Mr. Felstead. Maybe I've been asleep, but it seems as though you've been on an extended holiday here John.
Hey John, any new videos? [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks. I have been mega busy of late. I blew the engine in my STi two days before flying to Finland and it took me 36 hours to get home, so i left for finland with 3 hours sleep. It's all been downhill from there time wise.
I have rebuilt the engine now which took 6 days doing 12-14 hours flat out, so havnt had time for the net really, i then put 1600 miles on it in 1.5 weeks but have a problem now with the engine detting under load, so i have been working trying to find out why. All this has taken my spare time away unfortunately.
I am due to be at the ring this weekend, but as things look right now i wont be going. I am installing a new rear diff thursday as thats had enough of me putting 300BHP through it and am rebushing the steering rack which is a bit tired from all the kerb jumping. :o
The plan is to get some datalogging done tomorrow and then probably remap it, as i have installed some 100g lighter steel rods and lightened the flywheel and its probably this that is causing it to pick up too fast for the map that is in there right now.
[B]It's very refreshing to hear from Mr. Felstead. Maybe I've been asleep, but it seems as though you've been on an extended holiday here John.
Hey John, any new videos? [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks. I have been mega busy of late. I blew the engine in my STi two days before flying to Finland and it took me 36 hours to get home, so i left for finland with 3 hours sleep. It's all been downhill from there time wise.
I have rebuilt the engine now which took 6 days doing 12-14 hours flat out, so havnt had time for the net really, i then put 1600 miles on it in 1.5 weeks but have a problem now with the engine detting under load, so i have been working trying to find out why. All this has taken my spare time away unfortunately.
I am due to be at the ring this weekend, but as things look right now i wont be going. I am installing a new rear diff thursday as thats had enough of me putting 300BHP through it and am rebushing the steering rack which is a bit tired from all the kerb jumping. :o
The plan is to get some datalogging done tomorrow and then probably remap it, as i have installed some 100g lighter steel rods and lightened the flywheel and its probably this that is causing it to pick up too fast for the map that is in there right now.
| grandpa rex | 09-09-2003 04:21 PM |
thanks for the update, John. sorry to hear of your engine problems, but it sounds like you have it sorted out.
Forthwith, here are my all Italian picks for Monza:
1. Fabrizio Barbazza
2. Michele Alboreto
3. Jean Alesi
4. Silvio Berlusconi
5. Alberto Ascari
6. Michael Andretti
7. Giancarlo Fisichella
8. Alex Palazzo
Now, for the race:
1. Montoya
2. Raikkonen
3. MS
4. RB
5. Alonso
6. Ralfie
7. DC
8. Weber
Forthwith, here are my all Italian picks for Monza:
1. Fabrizio Barbazza
2. Michele Alboreto
3. Jean Alesi
4. Silvio Berlusconi
5. Alberto Ascari
6. Michael Andretti
7. Giancarlo Fisichella
8. Alex Palazzo
Now, for the race:
1. Montoya
2. Raikkonen
3. MS
4. RB
5. Alonso
6. Ralfie
7. DC
8. Weber
| AndyRoo | 09-09-2003 08:37 PM |
Interesting picks grandpa.
I'm kinda rootin for Frank Sinatra, though.
I'm kinda rootin for Frank Sinatra, though.
| OnTheGas | 09-12-2003 12:29 AM |
Monza Picks and Looking For Wankiness
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First my picks:[list=1][*][b]Montoya[/b] - Fast, but he better not toss it off the road![*][b]Schumacher[/b] - On 270mm front tires, he's the equal of any driver![*][b]Kimi[/b] - Fast, but bmw iron behind his back would make him faster here...[*][b]Rubens[/b] - Brilliant speed at Silverstone, and fast ever since.[*][b]Ralf[/b] - He'll grind off his tires and fade back[*][b]David[/b] - If everyone breaks, he'll podium![*][b]Jarno[/b] - Missed the setup at Hungaroring, but likes fast tracks![*][b]Fernando[/b] - He'll have to dogfight and brake-test to make the points here![/list=1]
[b]In Search of Wankiness[/b]
Some misconceptions were published here earlier.
First, FIA has not changed the regulations. Front tires "tread width must not exceed 270mm". It does not say, it must not exceed 270mm at the start of the race only, or before they are scrubbed. The regulation is not being changed because it is sufficient. The enforcement is the only thing being changed. Previously, enforcement was by measuring a tire only when it is new. Now, they will be measured new and used.
Apparently, Autosport published that the Michelin's were built in this manner starting with the San Marino GP of this season.
I read elsewhere that Bridgestone had tried this same concept two years ago, but because of their different design philosophy, the tire did not work well.
Second, the question of whether or not Michelin was cheating is not really relevant, nor important. What is more important, would be getting caught. Michelin did not get caught, but they were informed that they would get caught at Monza, and so made the proper response.
Third, speaking of proper response, Ferrari and Bridgestone made the proper response as well. A japanese photographer, during the Hungarian GP weekend, was able to document the used Michelins well. The photographs ended up in the hands of Ferrari. When they saw the evidence they were furious, of course. But they did the proper thing, by not bringing the issue up at the race. Instead, they accepted the race results as they were, loaded up, went home, and contacted Charlie Whiting (the FIA Technical guy), with the evidence. Charlie took the proper action thereafter, contacting Michelin on the issue quickly. Then afterwards officially notifying of them of how the regulations would be enforced differently at Monza.
I don't see any reason for tears, and bellyaching from us F1 bleacher bums... This could have been handled much worse, but the way this deal went down, I think that all parties handled it very well.
[b]In Search of Wankiness[/b]
Some misconceptions were published here earlier.
First, FIA has not changed the regulations. Front tires "tread width must not exceed 270mm". It does not say, it must not exceed 270mm at the start of the race only, or before they are scrubbed. The regulation is not being changed because it is sufficient. The enforcement is the only thing being changed. Previously, enforcement was by measuring a tire only when it is new. Now, they will be measured new and used.
Apparently, Autosport published that the Michelin's were built in this manner starting with the San Marino GP of this season.
I read elsewhere that Bridgestone had tried this same concept two years ago, but because of their different design philosophy, the tire did not work well.
Second, the question of whether or not Michelin was cheating is not really relevant, nor important. What is more important, would be getting caught. Michelin did not get caught, but they were informed that they would get caught at Monza, and so made the proper response.
Third, speaking of proper response, Ferrari and Bridgestone made the proper response as well. A japanese photographer, during the Hungarian GP weekend, was able to document the used Michelins well. The photographs ended up in the hands of Ferrari. When they saw the evidence they were furious, of course. But they did the proper thing, by not bringing the issue up at the race. Instead, they accepted the race results as they were, loaded up, went home, and contacted Charlie Whiting (the FIA Technical guy), with the evidence. Charlie took the proper action thereafter, contacting Michelin on the issue quickly. Then afterwards officially notifying of them of how the regulations would be enforced differently at Monza.
I don't see any reason for tears, and bellyaching from us F1 bleacher bums... This could have been handled much worse, but the way this deal went down, I think that all parties handled it very well.
| OnTheGas | 09-12-2003 01:55 AM |
Some Thoughts On The New Michelins
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Tom Keeble is a thoughtful writer on F1 issues, who is published over at [url]http://www.atlasf1.com/[/url]
This week, he wrote an interesting article on the newly redesigned Michelin tires for Monza.
First, we should all keep in mind, that in a modern F1 car, the tires themselves do the largest portion of bump absorption and control. Have you seen the cool, super slo-mo camera work of F1 cars hopping curbs in chicanes? The cars seem very stiff, but sometimes the sidewalls seem to really be flexing, even wobbling, as they absorb bumps. Much of the research of F1 tire technology is spent on designing a tire carcass, or infrastructure which is well suited to the bumps of the circuit. If a circuit requires much "curb hopping" for a quick time, then the better a tire's infrastructure is able to absorb the bumps, while keeping consistant, maximum contact patches of four tires on the pavement, the more grip the car can generate.
So Tom Keeble wrote that at the Monza testing last week, that the Bridgestone runners really don't know enough about the new Michelin tires to make any strong conclusions. We should keep in mind that during a test session, teams can run whatever ballast and fuel levels they desire, so things are always different on a race weekend, than at a test session.
[QUOTE][i]Excerpt from Tom Keeble at [url]http://www.atlasf1.com[/url][/i]
[b]General consensus holds that the new tyres are noticeably less forgiving over bumps. The new construction does not act in quite the same way over bump and rebound as the old tyres. As tyres are the biggest component in absorbing bumps in a Formula One curve, some fairly radical changes are required to the front suspension in order to ride the kerbs effectively at Monza. However, the more the suspension is set up to ride the curbs, the less effective it is for high speed corners, leaving the car skittish. Certainly not the ideal way to drive the Parabolica[/b][/QUOTE]
So here is the cool part of Tom's article. He foresees that the new Michelin tires may have the most affect on the midfield Michelin runners versus the midfield Bridgestone runners. The teams in question running on Bridgestones are BAR, Sauber, and Jordan; while the Michelin midfielders are Toyota, and Jaguar.
Teams at Monza are gonna be running in low downforce mode, with the wings laid all the way down. The key will be to get a set-up that is balanced under braking (three big breaking zone per lap (from ~330kph to ~100kph +-15kph ), as well as being able to be balanced in the fast and slow corners.
Given the greater compromise that the Michelins may have to suffer with in their set-ups between the fast and slow corners, Tom's point is that the mid-field Michelin runners may have a difficult time keeping their tires under their cars... as the tires wear, if the chassis becomes unbalanced, it will make the tires even more worse, that much more quickly.
The key is whether or not the Bridgestones are better. If they are, then BAR and Sauber, (I would be surprised to see that Ford-Cosworth motor of the Jordan push them past many competitors on the straights), may have the advantage over Toyota and Jaguar.
The mid-field dogfights might be particularly good. Starting with team BAR, JV enjoys, even lusts after fast circuits and corners, while at the same time his new team-mate has often been faster in race-trim. At Sauber, Nick Heidfeld may drive like he is looking for a job next year, and his team-mate, HHF, may be in a similiar situation (rumor is that Massa is coming back to take HHF's seat, while Fisichella is already anounced as Nick's replacement).
OTOH, Toyota has been stout on the straights recently, and we all know that da Matta has some experience running really high speeds, low downforce, and in tire conservation mode from his CART experiences. Panis has had some nice drives this season, often running in the points. Jaguar scored a podium here last year, though they seem less stout on horsepower in comparison to others now. Nonetheless, Webber can drag a slow car around to finish perhaps higher than it should have. And Justin Wilson will be more comfortable this time in the jag, having finally had some testing miles as well as two race weekends under his belt. He will be driving to impress, because has said his seat is open for next year, but he is in consideration.
Because of the low downforce, the cars may be skittish, and the slip angles may get large, so I think it may make for some pretty entertaining TV, especially if someone's tires go off... Of course, it is an italian feed, so we may see only red cars on our monitors for an hour and half!
This week, he wrote an interesting article on the newly redesigned Michelin tires for Monza.
First, we should all keep in mind, that in a modern F1 car, the tires themselves do the largest portion of bump absorption and control. Have you seen the cool, super slo-mo camera work of F1 cars hopping curbs in chicanes? The cars seem very stiff, but sometimes the sidewalls seem to really be flexing, even wobbling, as they absorb bumps. Much of the research of F1 tire technology is spent on designing a tire carcass, or infrastructure which is well suited to the bumps of the circuit. If a circuit requires much "curb hopping" for a quick time, then the better a tire's infrastructure is able to absorb the bumps, while keeping consistant, maximum contact patches of four tires on the pavement, the more grip the car can generate.
So Tom Keeble wrote that at the Monza testing last week, that the Bridgestone runners really don't know enough about the new Michelin tires to make any strong conclusions. We should keep in mind that during a test session, teams can run whatever ballast and fuel levels they desire, so things are always different on a race weekend, than at a test session.
[QUOTE][i]Excerpt from Tom Keeble at [url]http://www.atlasf1.com[/url][/i]
[b]General consensus holds that the new tyres are noticeably less forgiving over bumps. The new construction does not act in quite the same way over bump and rebound as the old tyres. As tyres are the biggest component in absorbing bumps in a Formula One curve, some fairly radical changes are required to the front suspension in order to ride the kerbs effectively at Monza. However, the more the suspension is set up to ride the curbs, the less effective it is for high speed corners, leaving the car skittish. Certainly not the ideal way to drive the Parabolica[/b][/QUOTE]
So here is the cool part of Tom's article. He foresees that the new Michelin tires may have the most affect on the midfield Michelin runners versus the midfield Bridgestone runners. The teams in question running on Bridgestones are BAR, Sauber, and Jordan; while the Michelin midfielders are Toyota, and Jaguar.
Teams at Monza are gonna be running in low downforce mode, with the wings laid all the way down. The key will be to get a set-up that is balanced under braking (three big breaking zone per lap (from ~330kph to ~100kph +-15kph ), as well as being able to be balanced in the fast and slow corners.
Given the greater compromise that the Michelins may have to suffer with in their set-ups between the fast and slow corners, Tom's point is that the mid-field Michelin runners may have a difficult time keeping their tires under their cars... as the tires wear, if the chassis becomes unbalanced, it will make the tires even more worse, that much more quickly.
The key is whether or not the Bridgestones are better. If they are, then BAR and Sauber, (I would be surprised to see that Ford-Cosworth motor of the Jordan push them past many competitors on the straights), may have the advantage over Toyota and Jaguar.
The mid-field dogfights might be particularly good. Starting with team BAR, JV enjoys, even lusts after fast circuits and corners, while at the same time his new team-mate has often been faster in race-trim. At Sauber, Nick Heidfeld may drive like he is looking for a job next year, and his team-mate, HHF, may be in a similiar situation (rumor is that Massa is coming back to take HHF's seat, while Fisichella is already anounced as Nick's replacement).
OTOH, Toyota has been stout on the straights recently, and we all know that da Matta has some experience running really high speeds, low downforce, and in tire conservation mode from his CART experiences. Panis has had some nice drives this season, often running in the points. Jaguar scored a podium here last year, though they seem less stout on horsepower in comparison to others now. Nonetheless, Webber can drag a slow car around to finish perhaps higher than it should have. And Justin Wilson will be more comfortable this time in the jag, having finally had some testing miles as well as two race weekends under his belt. He will be driving to impress, because has said his seat is open for next year, but he is in consideration.
Because of the low downforce, the cars may be skittish, and the slip angles may get large, so I think it may make for some pretty entertaining TV, especially if someone's tires go off... Of course, it is an italian feed, so we may see only red cars on our monitors for an hour and half!
| robp | 09-12-2003 01:02 PM |
So far Montoya is still faster than the red cars even on new tires that have had very little testing. Apparently Ralph skipped a chicane so his time isn't comparable and has been disallowed. I'm surprised that Barrichello is faster than Michael again. Earlier this season I thought Barrichello was just wasting space in the Ferrari, but he seems to have it again now. I don't buy the argument that Michael was hampered by being the first one out, since Montoya immediately followed him.
| driggity | 09-12-2003 07:02 PM |
Well, if you believe some of whats out there on the Internet the track was dirty when Michael was out there so he had to deal with that. It is good to see that the new tires aren't going to make everyone running michelins uncompetitive.
| gtguy | 09-12-2003 11:39 PM |
Good stuff, OTG. Thanks for posting it. Matchett as well, was wondering how the Michelins would hold up during the race run. Montoya drove a beautiful pre-qualifying lap. Ralf didn't. I was surprised to see the McLarens run so slowly, but when you look at the explanation from the F1 writer about the new Michelins, then watch the super slo-mo, the fronts of the McLarens were all over the place. So was the Williams, though not to the same extent.
Should be an interesting race, indeed.
Kevin
Should be an interesting race, indeed.
Kevin
| Bonzo | 09-13-2003 11:37 AM |
I thought I just saw at F1live.com that Ralfie was replaced. Am I imagining this? If not anyone know why?
So far the USGP could be one heckova championship deciding race:banana:
So far the USGP could be one heckova championship deciding race:banana:
| OnTheGas | 09-13-2003 01:00 PM |
Ralf Is Out!
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bonzo [/i]
[B]I thought I just saw at F1live.com that Ralfie was replaced. Am I imagining this? If not anyone know why?[/B][/QUOTE]Ralf had practised and qualified Friday, but was ruled unfit to compete by FIA Saturday morning.
[QUOTE][i]BMW motorsport director Mario Theissen[/i]
[b]Ralf reported a headache earlier this morning and went to see (FIA medical delegate) Sid Watkins to explain it to him, and said he was not sure he can drive. So Sid said it would be the right decision not to drive. Maybe he even said he must not drive.
Immediately we put Marc (Gene) in the car, changed everything. It took about an hour to an hour and a half to change the settings for Marc and I'm sure he will do a good job.[/b][/QUOTE]
Ralf's crash on Tuesday, Sept 2nd was very violent... Toward the end of the day, he lost the car (apparently a mechanical failure) going into the second Lesmo corner, went off the track, somersaulted, and crashed into the barriers. Ralf was knocked unconscious in the crash.
Indeed Marc has done a good job. In the first Saturday practice he and Montoya had nearly identical lap times of 1:22.6s and change, which placed them 5th and 6th in the session. In the second session, Montoya set the fastest time of the session at 1:21.4, while Gene was third fastest at 1:21.9, (the remaining Schumacher split their times in 2nd). In the qualifying session, Gene did fairly well, qualifying 5th with a 1:21.8, while Montoya was 2nd with a 1:21.0.
The question is of team orders... which Williams says they will not implement, but instead leave it to the drivers to work out between themselves...
[B]I thought I just saw at F1live.com that Ralfie was replaced. Am I imagining this? If not anyone know why?[/B][/QUOTE]Ralf had practised and qualified Friday, but was ruled unfit to compete by FIA Saturday morning.
[QUOTE][i]BMW motorsport director Mario Theissen[/i]
[b]Ralf reported a headache earlier this morning and went to see (FIA medical delegate) Sid Watkins to explain it to him, and said he was not sure he can drive. So Sid said it would be the right decision not to drive. Maybe he even said he must not drive.
Immediately we put Marc (Gene) in the car, changed everything. It took about an hour to an hour and a half to change the settings for Marc and I'm sure he will do a good job.[/b][/QUOTE]
Ralf's crash on Tuesday, Sept 2nd was very violent... Toward the end of the day, he lost the car (apparently a mechanical failure) going into the second Lesmo corner, went off the track, somersaulted, and crashed into the barriers. Ralf was knocked unconscious in the crash.
Indeed Marc has done a good job. In the first Saturday practice he and Montoya had nearly identical lap times of 1:22.6s and change, which placed them 5th and 6th in the session. In the second session, Montoya set the fastest time of the session at 1:21.4, while Gene was third fastest at 1:21.9, (the remaining Schumacher split their times in 2nd). In the qualifying session, Gene did fairly well, qualifying 5th with a 1:21.8, while Montoya was 2nd with a 1:21.0.
The question is of team orders... which Williams says they will not implement, but instead leave it to the drivers to work out between themselves...
| OnTheGas | 09-13-2003 01:05 PM |
Pole Position to Ferrari's Schumacher!
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[CODE]Pos Driver Team T1 T2 Time
1. (18) M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 25.995 53.788 1:20.963
2. (20) Montoya Williams BMW (M) 25.992 53.712 1:21.014 + 0.051
3. (19) Barrichello Ferrari (B) 26.219 54.057 1:21.242 + 0.279
4. (16) Raikkonen McLaren Mercedes (M) 26.202 54.223 1:21.466 + 0.503
5. (1) Gene Williams BMW (M) 26.261 54.261 1:21.834 + 0.871
6. (14) Trulli Renault (M) 26.528 54.564 1:21.944 + 0.981
7. (10) Button BAR Honda (B) 26.528 54.557 1:22.301 + 1.338
8. (7) Coulthard McLaren Mercedes (M) 26.300 54.732 1:22.471 + 1.508
9. (11) Panis Toyota (M) 26.332 54.665 1:22.488 + 1.525
10. (8) Villeneuve BAR Honda (B) 26.610 55.021 1:22.717 + 1.754
11. (15) Webber Jaguar Cosworth (M) 26.854 55.135 1:22.754 + 1.791
12. (17) da Matta Toyota (M) 26.423 54.802 1:22.914 + 1.951
13. (5) Fisichella Jordan Ford (B) 26.756 55.099 1:22.992 + 2.029
14. (12) Frentzen Sauber Petronas (B) 26.469 54.946 1:23.216 + 2.253
15. (6) Wilson Jaguar Cosworth (M) 26.977 55.584 1:23.484 + 2.521
16. (9) Heidfeld Sauber Petronas (B) 26.937 55.809 1:23.803 + 2.840
17. (2) Verstappen Minardi Cosworth (B) 26.870 54.165 1:25.078 + 4.115
18. (4) Baumgartner Jordan Ford (B) 27.312 57.056 1:25.881 + 4.918
19. (3) Kiesa Minardi Cosworth (B) 27.301 57.031 1:26.778 + 5.815
20. (13) Alonso Renault (M) 33.022 65.051 1:40.405 +19.442
Pos ----- Sector 1 ----- ----- Sector 2 ----- ----- Sector 3 -----
1. Montoya 25.992 Montoya 27.720 M.Schumacher 27.175
2. M.Schumacher 25.995 M.Schumacher 27.793 Barrichello 27.185
3. Raikkonen 26.202 Barrichello 27.838 Raikkonen 27.243
4. Barrichello 26.219 Gene 28.000 Montoya 27.302
5. Gene 26.261 Raikkonen 28.021 Trulli 27.380
6. Coulthard 26.300 Button 28.029 Gene 27.573
7. Panis 26.332 Trulli 28.036 Webber 27.619
8. da Matta 26.423 Webber 28.281 Villeneuve 27.696
9. Frentzen 26.469 Panis 28.333 Coulthard 27.739
10. Trulli 26.528 Fisichella 28.343 Button 27.744
11. Button 26.528 da Matta 28.379 Panis 27.823
12. Villeneuve 26.610 Villeneuve 28.411 Fisichella 27.893
13. Fisichella 26.756 Coulthard 28.432 Wilson 27.900
14. Webber 26.854 Frentzen 28.477 Heidfeld 27.994
15. Verstappen 26.870 Wilson 28.607 da Matta 28.112
16. Heidfeld 26.937 Heidfeld 28.872 Frentzen 28.270
17. Wilson 26.977 Verstappen 29.295 Baumgartner 28.825
18. Kiesa 27.301 Kiesa 29.730 Verstappen 28.913
19. Baumgartner 27.312 Baumgartner 29.744 Kiesa 29.747
20. Alonso 33.022 Alonso 32.029 Alonso 35.354
Top Speed: 362.5 km/h (M.Schumacher, Ferrari)[/CODE]
1. (18) M.Schumacher Ferrari (B) 25.995 53.788 1:20.963
2. (20) Montoya Williams BMW (M) 25.992 53.712 1:21.014 + 0.051
3. (19) Barrichello Ferrari (B) 26.219 54.057 1:21.242 + 0.279
4. (16) Raikkonen McLaren Mercedes (M) 26.202 54.223 1:21.466 + 0.503
5. (1) Gene Williams BMW (M) 26.261 54.261 1:21.834 + 0.871
6. (14) Trulli Renault (M) 26.528 54.564 1:21.944 + 0.981
7. (10) Button BAR Honda (B) 26.528 54.557 1:22.301 + 1.338
8. (7) Coulthard McLaren Mercedes (M) 26.300 54.732 1:22.471 + 1.508
9. (11) Panis Toyota (M) 26.332 54.665 1:22.488 + 1.525
10. (8) Villeneuve BAR Honda (B) 26.610 55.021 1:22.717 + 1.754
11. (15) Webber Jaguar Cosworth (M) 26.854 55.135 1:22.754 + 1.791
12. (17) da Matta Toyota (M) 26.423 54.802 1:22.914 + 1.951
13. (5) Fisichella Jordan Ford (B) 26.756 55.099 1:22.992 + 2.029
14. (12) Frentzen Sauber Petronas (B) 26.469 54.946 1:23.216 + 2.253
15. (6) Wilson Jaguar Cosworth (M) 26.977 55.584 1:23.484 + 2.521
16. (9) Heidfeld Sauber Petronas (B) 26.937 55.809 1:23.803 + 2.840
17. (2) Verstappen Minardi Cosworth (B) 26.870 54.165 1:25.078 + 4.115
18. (4) Baumgartner Jordan Ford (B) 27.312 57.056 1:25.881 + 4.918
19. (3) Kiesa Minardi Cosworth (B) 27.301 57.031 1:26.778 + 5.815
20. (13) Alonso Renault (M) 33.022 65.051 1:40.405 +19.442
Pos ----- Sector 1 ----- ----- Sector 2 ----- ----- Sector 3 -----
1. Montoya 25.992 Montoya 27.720 M.Schumacher 27.175
2. M.Schumacher 25.995 M.Schumacher 27.793 Barrichello 27.185
3. Raikkonen 26.202 Barrichello 27.838 Raikkonen 27.243
4. Barrichello 26.219 Gene 28.000 Montoya 27.302
5. Gene 26.261 Raikkonen 28.021 Trulli 27.380
6. Coulthard 26.300 Button 28.029 Gene 27.573
7. Panis 26.332 Trulli 28.036 Webber 27.619
8. da Matta 26.423 Webber 28.281 Villeneuve 27.696
9. Frentzen 26.469 Panis 28.333 Coulthard 27.739
10. Trulli 26.528 Fisichella 28.343 Button 27.744
11. Button 26.528 da Matta 28.379 Panis 27.823
12. Villeneuve 26.610 Villeneuve 28.411 Fisichella 27.893
13. Fisichella 26.756 Coulthard 28.432 Wilson 27.900
14. Webber 26.854 Frentzen 28.477 Heidfeld 27.994
15. Verstappen 26.870 Wilson 28.607 da Matta 28.112
16. Heidfeld 26.937 Heidfeld 28.872 Frentzen 28.270
17. Wilson 26.977 Verstappen 29.295 Baumgartner 28.825
18. Kiesa 27.301 Kiesa 29.730 Verstappen 28.913
19. Baumgartner 27.312 Baumgartner 29.744 Kiesa 29.747
20. Alonso 33.022 Alonso 32.029 Alonso 35.354
Top Speed: 362.5 km/h (M.Schumacher, Ferrari)[/CODE]
| Bonzo | 09-13-2003 02:52 PM |
Thank You OnTheGas for tracking that down. I've been short on time lately, working alot which is where I am now:rolleyes:
P1 and 2 are very close. An epic showdown may happen tomorrow.:banana: Should be intersting into the first chicane:eek:
P1 and 2 are very close. An epic showdown may happen tomorrow.:banana: Should be intersting into the first chicane:eek:
| gtguy | 09-13-2003 05:37 PM |
You wonder if the spectre of team orders had something to do with Gene being in the car, instead of R. Schumacher? In reality, R. Schu looked out of sorts during his pre-qualifying lap. He seemed to be reacting late to everything. Good call on his part.
To me, the most interesting part was the side-by-side shots of M. Schumacher and Montoya's cars during their lap. Did anyone notice how little steering input Schumacher was making, and how little his hands were moving about compared to Montoya. Unreal.
Unfortunately, we didn't get the same in-car shot through the Parabolica, but Schumacher's lap was pretty much perfect. And the fist pump was interesting as regards his confidence, i.e. "That lap was perfect, and I'm the best driver, so I know it's pole position."
High-speed straight, chicane, two guys who won't yield. Raikkonen must be thinking that he'll just sit back and watch the potential melee. The other thing is that the even-numbered cars are starting on the dirty side of the track. The difference isn't as significant as it was at the Hungaroring, but it is there. This will, IMHO, be counteracted by the superior Williams launch control. Look for Raikkonen to, if he sees a hole, make a bid for the lead, because the McLaren launch control is excellent.
Should be a great race, and the three contenders all did what they had to do, which was start within a row of each other. Rubens might be the wild card, if he gets a good start and gets in front of Montoya.
The only thing I hope is that championship is decided on the track, without reliability issues, backmarkers getting in the way, etc. This has been quite the battle. The other question will be how well the Michelins do at race distance.
Kevin
To me, the most interesting part was the side-by-side shots of M. Schumacher and Montoya's cars during their lap. Did anyone notice how little steering input Schumacher was making, and how little his hands were moving about compared to Montoya. Unreal.
Unfortunately, we didn't get the same in-car shot through the Parabolica, but Schumacher's lap was pretty much perfect. And the fist pump was interesting as regards his confidence, i.e. "That lap was perfect, and I'm the best driver, so I know it's pole position."
High-speed straight, chicane, two guys who won't yield. Raikkonen must be thinking that he'll just sit back and watch the potential melee. The other thing is that the even-numbered cars are starting on the dirty side of the track. The difference isn't as significant as it was at the Hungaroring, but it is there. This will, IMHO, be counteracted by the superior Williams launch control. Look for Raikkonen to, if he sees a hole, make a bid for the lead, because the McLaren launch control is excellent.
Should be a great race, and the three contenders all did what they had to do, which was start within a row of each other. Rubens might be the wild card, if he gets a good start and gets in front of Montoya.
The only thing I hope is that championship is decided on the track, without reliability issues, backmarkers getting in the way, etc. This has been quite the battle. The other question will be how well the Michelins do at race distance.
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 09-14-2003 01:49 AM |
That first corner is gonna be nuts. Anyone know if this is gonna be on national television like last year? That would kick ass and make my day.
Its hard to imagine Montoya backing off in the first corner. He didnt last year for Ralf, can't see him doing it for Michael.
Okay, I dont remember who hit who last year, but you get my point.
Kinda rootin for Kimi, then I guess JPM. Should be interesting. Don't remember the last time i looked forward to a race so much.
Its hard to imagine Montoya backing off in the first corner. He didnt last year for Ralf, can't see him doing it for Michael.
Okay, I dont remember who hit who last year, but you get my point.
Kinda rootin for Kimi, then I guess JPM. Should be interesting. Don't remember the last time i looked forward to a race so much.
| Dolphin Overton | 09-14-2003 02:52 AM |
I'll be rooting for Montoya. I really hope he destroys SHumacher and his huge chin. Don't know how it will pan out with all this tire garbage, but i hope Ferrari takes it in the arse. I would like to see Alonso come back from dead last as well. I think he got screwed in qualifying... looked like his car bottomed out or something. Anyone who is ahead of a red car is OK in my book though, especially if they are in a Bimmer.
| gtguy | 09-14-2003 03:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dolphin Overton [/i]
[B]I'll be rooting for Montoya. I really hope he destroys SHumacher and his huge chin. Don't know how it will pan out with all this tire garbage, but i hope Ferrari takes it in the arse. I would like to see Alonso come back from dead last as well. I think he got screwed in qualifying... looked like his car bottomed out or something. Anyone who is ahead of a red car is OK in my book though, especially if they are in a Bimmer. [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow...I just want to see good racing. The last two races have been pretty dull.
I think that JPM is going to be in the lead into the first corner, and M. Schu is just going to bide his time, to see how the Michelins hold up, then try making a move.
Both drivers realize how much is at stake, and won't do anything stupid.
Oh, Alonso didn't get screwed...he just messed up with that throttle thingy... :lol: The Renaults are too power deficient to do anything except top 8 here. I feel sorry for whoever gets stuck behind Trulli, if he gets the usual rocket-like Renault launch control start.
Kevin
[B]I'll be rooting for Montoya. I really hope he destroys SHumacher and his huge chin. Don't know how it will pan out with all this tire garbage, but i hope Ferrari takes it in the arse. I would like to see Alonso come back from dead last as well. I think he got screwed in qualifying... looked like his car bottomed out or something. Anyone who is ahead of a red car is OK in my book though, especially if they are in a Bimmer. [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow...I just want to see good racing. The last two races have been pretty dull.
I think that JPM is going to be in the lead into the first corner, and M. Schu is just going to bide his time, to see how the Michelins hold up, then try making a move.
Both drivers realize how much is at stake, and won't do anything stupid.
Oh, Alonso didn't get screwed...he just messed up with that throttle thingy... :lol: The Renaults are too power deficient to do anything except top 8 here. I feel sorry for whoever gets stuck behind Trulli, if he gets the usual rocket-like Renault launch control start.
Kevin
| Choose | 09-14-2003 08:44 AM |
........I think we have battle shaping up for the lead!!!
Montoya is getting closer and closer!!!!
Montoya is getting closer and closer!!!!
| Choose | 09-14-2003 09:17 AM |
But it was not to be.
Very predictable and un-eventfull race. Still, Villneuve finished 6th!;)
Very predictable and un-eventfull race. Still, Villneuve finished 6th!;)
| gtguy | 09-14-2003 02:22 PM |
Looks like Alonso spun in qualifying because of a traction control malfunction.
The situation made the race certainly more fraught with tension than it deserved to be. You could see that Montoya gained in the twisty bits, while Schumacher pulled out in the high-speed bits, thanks to the low downforce setup they were running.
Looks like both guys were having brake problems toward the end of things.
Now, we see if my contention, that the winner of Monza wins the championship holds water. Montoya is calling Indy a high downforce track, where Williams and Renault can expect to do well, but I've never thought of Indy as requiring high downforce, thanks to the two high-speed straights on the front and back of the track. Interesting.
My hope is that Montoya will win at Indy, so that Suzuka can be for all the marbles. :D
Kevin
The situation made the race certainly more fraught with tension than it deserved to be. You could see that Montoya gained in the twisty bits, while Schumacher pulled out in the high-speed bits, thanks to the low downforce setup they were running.
Looks like both guys were having brake problems toward the end of things.
Now, we see if my contention, that the winner of Monza wins the championship holds water. Montoya is calling Indy a high downforce track, where Williams and Renault can expect to do well, but I've never thought of Indy as requiring high downforce, thanks to the two high-speed straights on the front and back of the track. Interesting.
My hope is that Montoya will win at Indy, so that Suzuka can be for all the marbles. :D
Kevin
| mykrrrr | 09-14-2003 03:30 PM |
After that first lap I thought it was gonna be a nailbiter but it was sorta boring IMO. I wish JPM would have caught up to MS and made it an exciting finish.
I wanted DeMatta to do well but that tyre separation was unfortunate.
I did get to see qualifying last night and that Alonso spin was pretty cool. :p
I'm hoping JPM wins the championship.
-mykr.
I wanted DeMatta to do well but that tyre separation was unfortunate.
I did get to see qualifying last night and that Alonso spin was pretty cool. :p
I'm hoping JPM wins the championship.
-mykr.
| OnTheGas | 09-14-2003 05:04 PM |
Ferrari Horsepowah & Fernando's Drive From Last
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In the post race interview, Michael specifically mentioned the Ferrari engine team... correctly so. Ferrari was running the highest trap speeds, and seemed to be able to pull anyone on the straights... That is a nice car, but I think the victory is correctly dedicated to the ferrari engine tuners and builders, because that motor was stout.
Regarding Juan's comment about the Indy and Suzuka favoring Ferrari's opponents, I believe he said, and what he was trying to say, is that Indy has traditionally become a medium downforce track. The compromise is huge at Indy, between the twisty infield and the long, long straight (longest on the calendar, I believe). Most teams go with a medium downforce type of set-up... they must lose too much time in the infield in low-downforce mode.
Looking back to Hungary, Nurburgring, etc. the more downforce, the less effective the Ferrari chassis. Likewise Suzuka should be a strength for Ferrari's opponents.
How about Fernando's drive!?! Starts from the back, then launches himself over a back-marker, tears apart his side-barge and undertray short-cutting the chicane, yet afterwards he was lapping faster than most of the field! That kid is the real deal!!
I thought this race showed well the strength of talent of Montoya, Alonso, and particularly Michael... Looks like this drivers championship will be decided on either reliability, or a tooth and nail, on the track dog-fight!
Regarding Juan's comment about the Indy and Suzuka favoring Ferrari's opponents, I believe he said, and what he was trying to say, is that Indy has traditionally become a medium downforce track. The compromise is huge at Indy, between the twisty infield and the long, long straight (longest on the calendar, I believe). Most teams go with a medium downforce type of set-up... they must lose too much time in the infield in low-downforce mode.
Looking back to Hungary, Nurburgring, etc. the more downforce, the less effective the Ferrari chassis. Likewise Suzuka should be a strength for Ferrari's opponents.
How about Fernando's drive!?! Starts from the back, then launches himself over a back-marker, tears apart his side-barge and undertray short-cutting the chicane, yet afterwards he was lapping faster than most of the field! That kid is the real deal!!
I thought this race showed well the strength of talent of Montoya, Alonso, and particularly Michael... Looks like this drivers championship will be decided on either reliability, or a tooth and nail, on the track dog-fight!
| OnTheGas | 09-14-2003 05:07 PM |
Da Matta's Tire
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mykrrrr [/i]
[B]I wanted DeMatta to do well but that tyre separation was unfortunate.[/B][/QUOTE]I'm thinking that tire seperation has the hallmarks of someone kissing his tire with their front wing, and cutting it... Just a guess, but it is likely to happen during the first couple of laps, when they have no downforce, and high speed runs into slow chicanes...
[B]I wanted DeMatta to do well but that tyre separation was unfortunate.[/B][/QUOTE]I'm thinking that tire seperation has the hallmarks of someone kissing his tire with their front wing, and cutting it... Just a guess, but it is likely to happen during the first couple of laps, when they have no downforce, and high speed runs into slow chicanes...
| gtguy | 09-14-2003 05:43 PM |
I'm certainly looking forward to the fight, and Alonso definitely has the goods, no question.
I think that Suzuka will be a Ferrari track because a) you KNOW Bridgestone already has a Suzuka-specific tire that should work very well, b) Suzuka tends to favor the best overall package, which is the Ferrari, and c) Suzuka favors the best driver, still M. Schumacher, even though Montoya might be a better racer.
I also think that Schumacher is a better pressure driver.
OTG, don't you think the low downforce setup and excellent aero package helped Ferrari as much as the new engine work? I also thought it was interesting, regarding the Ferrari mechanical grip, when Montoya said that he got alongside Schumacher, but coming out of the corner, the Ferrari accelerated much better.
Looked like Ferrari worked on their launch control, too. They got away quite good, but you could still the difference in the McLaren and Renault (Trulli! crikey!) launch control setups.
Indy will be interesting. Part of why I think the Michelin teams did so well at high-downforce tracks was that they were usually Monaco-spec tire tracks (Germany, Monaco, Hungary), a tire specification that Bridgestone seems particularly poor at. When the speeds go up (Monza, Indy) or when the overall car balance (Suzuka) enters the equation, the Ferrari is able to hold its own, even with inferior tires.
What a championship, and what a battle. For Indy, (and I never thought I'd be saying this...) go Montoya! :lol:
Kevin
I think that Suzuka will be a Ferrari track because a) you KNOW Bridgestone already has a Suzuka-specific tire that should work very well, b) Suzuka tends to favor the best overall package, which is the Ferrari, and c) Suzuka favors the best driver, still M. Schumacher, even though Montoya might be a better racer.
I also think that Schumacher is a better pressure driver.
OTG, don't you think the low downforce setup and excellent aero package helped Ferrari as much as the new engine work? I also thought it was interesting, regarding the Ferrari mechanical grip, when Montoya said that he got alongside Schumacher, but coming out of the corner, the Ferrari accelerated much better.
Looked like Ferrari worked on their launch control, too. They got away quite good, but you could still the difference in the McLaren and Renault (Trulli! crikey!) launch control setups.
Indy will be interesting. Part of why I think the Michelin teams did so well at high-downforce tracks was that they were usually Monaco-spec tire tracks (Germany, Monaco, Hungary), a tire specification that Bridgestone seems particularly poor at. When the speeds go up (Monza, Indy) or when the overall car balance (Suzuka) enters the equation, the Ferrari is able to hold its own, even with inferior tires.
What a championship, and what a battle. For Indy, (and I never thought I'd be saying this...) go Montoya! :lol:
Kevin
| AndyRoo | 09-14-2003 08:02 PM |
Speaking of close championships...
545 Ken March
539 Lord Bass
534 Andrew Sekellick
500 Wesley Slone
483 Steve Morris
398 Alex Hofstetter
292 Jim Rider
265 Brian Hadfield
210 Fred Zaplitny
159 David Harrison
545 Ken March
539 Lord Bass
534 Andrew Sekellick
500 Wesley Slone
483 Steve Morris
398 Alex Hofstetter
292 Jim Rider
265 Brian Hadfield
210 Fred Zaplitny
159 David Harrison
| mykrrrr | 09-14-2003 09:20 PM |
Re: Ferrari Horsepowah & Fernando's Drive From Last
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas [/i]
[B]
How about Fernando's drive!?! Starts from the back, then launches himself over a back-marker, tears apart his side-barge and undertray short-cutting the chicane, yet afterwards he was lapping faster than most of the field! That kid is the real deal!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree, brilliant drive by Ferdy. :D
Was he trying out for a 2nd seat on a WRC team??? :lol:
-mykr.
[B]
How about Fernando's drive!?! Starts from the back, then launches himself over a back-marker, tears apart his side-barge and undertray short-cutting the chicane, yet afterwards he was lapping faster than most of the field! That kid is the real deal!!
[/B][/QUOTE]
I agree, brilliant drive by Ferdy. :D
Was he trying out for a 2nd seat on a WRC team??? :lol:
-mykr.
| OnTheGas | 09-15-2003 10:54 AM |
On CoG (Center of Gravity), and Michelin Engineering
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gtguy [/i]
[B]OTG, don't you think the low downforce setup and excellent aero package helped Ferrari as much as the new engine work?[/B][/QUOTE]Kevin - Yeah, you could be correct. I was just thinking that when the wings are laid down, the hallmarks of quick laptimes are primarily the engine, followed by the chassis having good balance in the corners. I am thinking of Renault, who has a known power deficit (although a small deficit). At Monza, they have the advantage of an excellent mechanical chassis, (lower CoG, very good balance), yet they were never in contention for the podium, unless other cars broke or dropped out, because of the lack of power.
Regarding the grip, and launch of the Ferrari out of the chicane vs. the Williams, think about this... Michelin brought three tire compounds to Monza... It was speculated before the weekend that the sudden change to the front tire carcass (infastructure) so that they would be 270mm wide post race inspection would cause the Michelins to not work as well. I would say that speculation was correct, because Michelin brought 3 tire compounds to Monza, and all the Michelin teams chose the hardest of the 3 compounds for all 10 Michelin cars. So Michelin was put behind the eight ball at Monza, and it appears that they paid the price. Monza is a very difficult challenge for the tire manufacturers in that the tires must withstand , and dispense with, the high internal tempatures which are generated by the very high speeds, while having a tire which works well while hopping curbs at the chicanes.
It is certainly possible, that Montoya could have easily won that race if he could have run on a softer compound.
So perhaps the championship fight will come down to the engineers at Michelin... Will Michelin show up at Indy and Suzuka with tires which work well on grippier compounds? If yes, it will be either Juan's or Kimi's championship (depending upon luck). If no, if they show up like they did at Monza, with good, softer compounds that unfortunately won't last on the recently modified front tire carcass, then we will see some sort of three horse race...
[B]OTG, don't you think the low downforce setup and excellent aero package helped Ferrari as much as the new engine work?[/B][/QUOTE]Kevin - Yeah, you could be correct. I was just thinking that when the wings are laid down, the hallmarks of quick laptimes are primarily the engine, followed by the chassis having good balance in the corners. I am thinking of Renault, who has a known power deficit (although a small deficit). At Monza, they have the advantage of an excellent mechanical chassis, (lower CoG, very good balance), yet they were never in contention for the podium, unless other cars broke or dropped out, because of the lack of power.
Regarding the grip, and launch of the Ferrari out of the chicane vs. the Williams, think about this... Michelin brought three tire compounds to Monza... It was speculated before the weekend that the sudden change to the front tire carcass (infastructure) so that they would be 270mm wide post race inspection would cause the Michelins to not work as well. I would say that speculation was correct, because Michelin brought 3 tire compounds to Monza, and all the Michelin teams chose the hardest of the 3 compounds for all 10 Michelin cars. So Michelin was put behind the eight ball at Monza, and it appears that they paid the price. Monza is a very difficult challenge for the tire manufacturers in that the tires must withstand , and dispense with, the high internal tempatures which are generated by the very high speeds, while having a tire which works well while hopping curbs at the chicanes.
It is certainly possible, that Montoya could have easily won that race if he could have run on a softer compound.
So perhaps the championship fight will come down to the engineers at Michelin... Will Michelin show up at Indy and Suzuka with tires which work well on grippier compounds? If yes, it will be either Juan's or Kimi's championship (depending upon luck). If no, if they show up like they did at Monza, with good, softer compounds that unfortunately won't last on the recently modified front tire carcass, then we will see some sort of three horse race...
| gtguy | 09-15-2003 05:19 PM |
The wing differences of the Ferrari and the Williams (hardly any and some :lol: ) were interesting. Ferrari must be encouraged, given that they were able to get excellent grip and handling through the twisty bits (Schumacher's pace through the Parabolica was amazing) even running as little wing as they do, a testament to the car's mechanical grip.
I wonder about Indy. It's usually pretty chilly there in late-Sept., possibly even rainy, which would REALLY screw the Michelin runners. The Williams folks are saying that the Ferrari Monza win was a one-off, and that the Williams will kick out the jams at Indy and Suzuka.
Ferrari is saying "let's wait and see." Speculation from neutral parties is that Williams will win at Indy and that Suzuka has always been a Ferrari track.
My personal speculation has been (and still is) that barring anything odd (crash, DNF) the winner of Monza wins the championship, as usually, if a car does well at Monza, it also does well at Indy, because if it can be set up for high-speed running with minimal wing, and still work in the infield section, it will do great at Indy, which doesn't require as much full throttle as Monza, but Hulman, and the front straight mean that you're WOT more often than not.
I don't know how slow the Michelins really were, and the tires sure seemed to be holding up great. I think the difference was that in top speed, the Ferrari, thanks to power and aerodynamics was able to pull on the Williams every lap, and hold its own in the twisty bits.
I can't wait for Indy. McLaren is in trouble. Unless Schumacher and Montoya take each other out (excellent racing between the two that first lap), an unlikely prospect, Raikkonen is hosed, because the McLaren just doesn't have the pace to keep up with the Ferrari and Williams at the next two races.
Other questions concern the no. 2s, R. Schu and Barrichello. They're dueling for the manufacturer's title, because that second guy on the team usually has the big points swing. Gene finishing two spots behind Barrichello hurt Williams. As we all know, Frank Williams doesn't care anywhere near as much about winning the No. 1 driver's plate as he does winning Constructors' title.
The unfortunate thing is that the FIA is going to think that their new rules did it, instead of the fact that Michelin got a second and a half faster in the off-season.
Kevin
I wonder about Indy. It's usually pretty chilly there in late-Sept., possibly even rainy, which would REALLY screw the Michelin runners. The Williams folks are saying that the Ferrari Monza win was a one-off, and that the Williams will kick out the jams at Indy and Suzuka.
Ferrari is saying "let's wait and see." Speculation from neutral parties is that Williams will win at Indy and that Suzuka has always been a Ferrari track.
My personal speculation has been (and still is) that barring anything odd (crash, DNF) the winner of Monza wins the championship, as usually, if a car does well at Monza, it also does well at Indy, because if it can be set up for high-speed running with minimal wing, and still work in the infield section, it will do great at Indy, which doesn't require as much full throttle as Monza, but Hulman, and the front straight mean that you're WOT more often than not.
I don't know how slow the Michelins really were, and the tires sure seemed to be holding up great. I think the difference was that in top speed, the Ferrari, thanks to power and aerodynamics was able to pull on the Williams every lap, and hold its own in the twisty bits.
I can't wait for Indy. McLaren is in trouble. Unless Schumacher and Montoya take each other out (excellent racing between the two that first lap), an unlikely prospect, Raikkonen is hosed, because the McLaren just doesn't have the pace to keep up with the Ferrari and Williams at the next two races.
Other questions concern the no. 2s, R. Schu and Barrichello. They're dueling for the manufacturer's title, because that second guy on the team usually has the big points swing. Gene finishing two spots behind Barrichello hurt Williams. As we all know, Frank Williams doesn't care anywhere near as much about winning the No. 1 driver's plate as he does winning Constructors' title.
The unfortunate thing is that the FIA is going to think that their new rules did it, instead of the fact that Michelin got a second and a half faster in the off-season.
Kevin
| Dr. WOT | 09-16-2003 12:06 PM |
Great clutch performance by Ferrari. To me the key to the race was Schumacher getting a good launch and holding position into the first chicane. JPM on the dirty line may have played a role in that but we have seen the Ferraris get gobbled up on much shorter runs into the first corner, so that was huge.
Great first lap battle between MS & JPM and it must be said that Montoya showed real maturity by not forcing the issue. In past years, and certainly in his CHAMP car career that same situation would have ended with one or both cars being out of the race. This is WDC material, conceding the battle to win the war.
I was quite surprised that McLaren didn't show up for this race. The track should suit their car well but they were a non factor, which basically nullifies the 3-way-battle for the Championship. My guess is that the new tires didn't suit the MP4 as well as they did the FW.
On the subject of tires, it seems apparent the new regulation helped the relative performance of Ferrari, but now looking back more than ever it seems clear that the Michelins were indeed out of spec. If they weren't, Michelin and their teams would have put up more resistance, but instead they quietly complied which to me is a solid indication that they knew they had been caught.
Anyway, looking forward to the USGP!
:banana:
Great first lap battle between MS & JPM and it must be said that Montoya showed real maturity by not forcing the issue. In past years, and certainly in his CHAMP car career that same situation would have ended with one or both cars being out of the race. This is WDC material, conceding the battle to win the war.
I was quite surprised that McLaren didn't show up for this race. The track should suit their car well but they were a non factor, which basically nullifies the 3-way-battle for the Championship. My guess is that the new tires didn't suit the MP4 as well as they did the FW.
On the subject of tires, it seems apparent the new regulation helped the relative performance of Ferrari, but now looking back more than ever it seems clear that the Michelins were indeed out of spec. If they weren't, Michelin and their teams would have put up more resistance, but instead they quietly complied which to me is a solid indication that they knew they had been caught.
Anyway, looking forward to the USGP!
:banana:
| gtguy | 09-16-2003 02:25 PM |
What I was thinking, Dr. WOT, was that Monza is a track that particularly suits the Ferrari, with its excellent aero package. And as OTG pointed out, they've got more motivational force from the new motor. They were 5-7kph up on the stout Williams in trap speed, which is telling.
There's also the question of mechanical grip, which Ferrari had in abundance.
Monza, being a low-downforce track, is the place where you would expect Michelin to have the least advantage, given the lack of importance of the fronts (a narrower front is actually an aero advantage) relative to a lower-speed track like Hungary or Monaco.
JPM has indeed come a long way. It's amazing what having your eyes on a championship, vs. having your eyes on just getting into another driver's head will do for your maturity level.
McLaren's no-show doesn't surprise me. Did you see the size of the brake ducts on that car? Talk about messing up the aero package. McLaren is also down on power, relative to its rivals, and doesn't have the excellent aerodynamics of the new Ferrari, or the sheer grunt of the Williams. They'll be third-best at Indy, too.
They should show very well at Suzuka, however. When they couldn't get the new car up and running, Raikkonen's chances were done for this year, barring any Schumacher/Montoya cataclysms.
BTW, Monza this year was the fastest Grand Prix ever, with an average speed of something like 157mph. Yow!
Kevin
There's also the question of mechanical grip, which Ferrari had in abundance.
Monza, being a low-downforce track, is the place where you would expect Michelin to have the least advantage, given the lack of importance of the fronts (a narrower front is actually an aero advantage) relative to a lower-speed track like Hungary or Monaco.
JPM has indeed come a long way. It's amazing what having your eyes on a championship, vs. having your eyes on just getting into another driver's head will do for your maturity level.
McLaren's no-show doesn't surprise me. Did you see the size of the brake ducts on that car? Talk about messing up the aero package. McLaren is also down on power, relative to its rivals, and doesn't have the excellent aerodynamics of the new Ferrari, or the sheer grunt of the Williams. They'll be third-best at Indy, too.
They should show very well at Suzuka, however. When they couldn't get the new car up and running, Raikkonen's chances were done for this year, barring any Schumacher/Montoya cataclysms.
BTW, Monza this year was the fastest Grand Prix ever, with an average speed of something like 157mph. Yow!
Kevin
| Dr. WOT | 09-16-2003 09:56 PM |
OMG you are so right about those brake ducts... they looked like the mouth of a sperm whale at feeding time.
I tend to agree with the AtlasF1 article OTG pasted-- not so much a direct issue of grip but rather the effect on the sidewalls which changed the tire's characteristics running over the curbing. Losing a few mph through a corner like the Variante Ascari will kill the speed running down the long straight to Parabolica.
On the note of Ferrari's engine, I think this is where any Tifosi can be proudest. There are many accusations of Ferrari not being an Italian team anymore with a French manager, a German driver, a South African designer, and an English race engineer.
But where that logic ends is Paolo Martinelli. Born and bread in Modena, rossa corsa pumps through his veins. And it is the power and reliability of his motors as much as any of those other ingrediants that has generated Ferrari's success. Very classy of Shuey to give a nod to these unsung heros.
I tend to agree with the AtlasF1 article OTG pasted-- not so much a direct issue of grip but rather the effect on the sidewalls which changed the tire's characteristics running over the curbing. Losing a few mph through a corner like the Variante Ascari will kill the speed running down the long straight to Parabolica.
On the note of Ferrari's engine, I think this is where any Tifosi can be proudest. There are many accusations of Ferrari not being an Italian team anymore with a French manager, a German driver, a South African designer, and an English race engineer.
But where that logic ends is Paolo Martinelli. Born and bread in Modena, rossa corsa pumps through his veins. And it is the power and reliability of his motors as much as any of those other ingrediants that has generated Ferrari's success. Very classy of Shuey to give a nod to these unsung heros.
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