| jnorth85 | 03-16-2007 04:44 PM |
New Insurance Exclusions
�
�
these are directly from the insurance handbook.
EXCLUSIONS
A. We do not provide Liability Coverage for any "insured":
4. Any vehicle, located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.
Here, in reference specifically to physical damage to the vehicle
EXCLUSIONS
We will not pay for:
12. Loss to "your covered auto" or any "nonowned auto", located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or
speed contest.
EXCLUSIONS
A. We do not provide Liability Coverage for any "insured":
4. Any vehicle, located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.
Here, in reference specifically to physical damage to the vehicle
EXCLUSIONS
We will not pay for:
12. Loss to "your covered auto" or any "nonowned auto", located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or
speed contest.
| Butt Dyno | 03-16-2007 04:51 PM |
"the insurance handbook"
:confused:
This isn't really news... gotta pay to play, etc etc.
:confused:
This isn't really news... gotta pay to play, etc etc.
| Scooby South | 03-16-2007 04:51 PM |
well duh...mine always has said that...
But Driver "instruction" is a different story...
Bill
But Driver "instruction" is a different story...
Bill
| waktasz | 03-16-2007 04:54 PM |
Looks like autocross isn't specifically excluded...the parking lots our events are in aren't designed for racing :)
| fliz | 03-16-2007 05:27 PM |
This is why when you run a track day/autox you make sure the club has a liability policy for when a corner worker runs in front of your car.
| WRXedUSA | 03-16-2007 05:33 PM |
This screams of "350z-Evo-Porsche Incident"
:lol:
But yeah, pay to play.
-chet
:lol:
But yeah, pay to play.
-chet
| jnorth85 | 03-16-2007 05:39 PM |
the hand book used to only exclude
"timed driving events"
they recently re worded it to the current.
"timed driving events"
they recently re worded it to the current.
| jnorth85 | 03-16-2007 05:40 PM |
[QUOTE=waktasz;17381425]Looks like autocross isn't specifically excluded...the parking lots our events are in aren't designed for racing :)[/QUOTE]
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest
id say they pretty much have it covered.
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest
id say they pretty much have it covered.
| jnorth85 | 03-16-2007 05:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South;17381390]well duh...mine always has said that...
But Driver "instruction" is a different story...
Bill[/QUOTE]
No longer, Driving Instruction is now Excluded based on the current exclusions they supersede the previous "timed driving event only"
But Driver "instruction" is a different story...
Bill[/QUOTE]
No longer, Driving Instruction is now Excluded based on the current exclusions they supersede the previous "timed driving event only"
| fliz | 03-16-2007 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17381951]No longer, Driving Instruction is now Excluded based on the current exclusions they supersede the previous "timed driving event only"[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. Driver's instruction isn't practicing for a prearranged event.
It is completely separate from any timed event.
I don't think so. Driver's instruction isn't practicing for a prearranged event.
It is completely separate from any timed event.
| Butt Dyno | 03-16-2007 05:52 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17381919]the hand book used to only exclude
"timed driving events"
they recently re worded it to the current.[/QUOTE]
What is "THE" handbook exactly?
"timed driving events"
they recently re worded it to the current.[/QUOTE]
What is "THE" handbook exactly?
| blacktalon606 | 03-16-2007 06:16 PM |
[QUOTE=waktasz;17381425]Looks like autocross isn't specifically excluded...the parking lots our events are in aren't designed for racing :)[/QUOTE]
Once you set up cones or other guiding markers... your parking lot is now "designed for racing." These people are lawyers... the words mean what they want them to mean.
Once you set up cones or other guiding markers... your parking lot is now "designed for racing." These people are lawyers... the words mean what they want them to mean.
| Fred Fredburger | 03-16-2007 06:25 PM |
[quote=ButtDyno;17382093]What is "THE" handbook exactly?[/quote]
^^^ +1
Insurance regulations vary state to state and insurance exclusions vary carrier to carrier, so as far as I know there is no "THE" handbook.
^^^ +1
Insurance regulations vary state to state and insurance exclusions vary carrier to carrier, so as far as I know there is no "THE" handbook.
| akuhner | 03-16-2007 09:15 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno;17382093]What is "THE" handbook exactly?[/QUOTE]
I can't believe this thread got all the way to post #11 without anyone asking that!!
Seriously, this information lacks any credibility, or really any context at all, until we know who's handbook you are talking about. If you can't share that because they are your employer or something that's fine, but this is meaningless without that kind of context.
Now, if you want to make news, show that not only are you not covered during the event, but that they will deny claims you make for things that happen outside an event specifically because you had at one time competed. I could care less if people are covered while they are competing - if you have an accident at a track day or something and try to make a claim you deserve to be denied and dropped from insurance. What people don't deserve is to be denied or dropped for legitimate claims simply because they once competed.
Edit - I hope I didn't come across as attacking you in anyway, I'm only attacking the info (and the concept that anyone ever should collect on insurance for accidents during any form of competition).
I can't believe this thread got all the way to post #11 without anyone asking that!!
Seriously, this information lacks any credibility, or really any context at all, until we know who's handbook you are talking about. If you can't share that because they are your employer or something that's fine, but this is meaningless without that kind of context.
Now, if you want to make news, show that not only are you not covered during the event, but that they will deny claims you make for things that happen outside an event specifically because you had at one time competed. I could care less if people are covered while they are competing - if you have an accident at a track day or something and try to make a claim you deserve to be denied and dropped from insurance. What people don't deserve is to be denied or dropped for legitimate claims simply because they once competed.
Edit - I hope I didn't come across as attacking you in anyway, I'm only attacking the info (and the concept that anyone ever should collect on insurance for accidents during any form of competition).
| REX8 | 03-16-2007 09:18 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17381951]No longer, Driving Instruction is now Excluded based on the current exclusions they supersede the previous "timed driving event only"[/QUOTE]
It doesn't fit into anything you poasted above. Its not practicing, etc. for any racing or timed event.
If it is excluded, its not by anything you posted.
It doesn't fit into anything you poasted above. Its not practicing, etc. for any racing or timed event.
If it is excluded, its not by anything you posted.
| Butt Dyno | 03-16-2007 09:21 PM |
[QUOTE=Car #187;17383943]I can't believe this thread got all the way to post #11 without anyone asking that!! [/quote]
It only got all the way to post #2 without anyone asking that ;)
It only got all the way to post #2 without anyone asking that ;)
| akuhner | 03-16-2007 09:28 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno;17383994]It only got all the way to post #2 without anyone asking that ;)[/QUOTE]
Haha, Butt, it didn't occurr to me that :confused: constituted a question so I missed that!
Haha, Butt, it didn't occurr to me that :confused: constituted a question so I missed that!
| Storm | 03-16-2007 09:55 PM |
That is why the SCCA is careful not to define autocross as racing.
From [URL="http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~="]http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~=[/URL] the SCCA site defining what autocross is:
Solo is the SCCA brand name for autocross competition. Solo events are driving skill contests that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling characteristics. This is accomplished by driving a course that is designated by traffic cones on a low hazard location, such as a parking lot or inactive airstrip. While speeds are no greater than those normally encountered in legal highway driving, the combination of concentration and car feedback creates an adrenaline pumping experience. It is like being in a movie chase scene, only you are holding onto the steering wheel instead of a box of popcorn!
Jay Storm
From [URL="http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~="]http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~=[/URL] the SCCA site defining what autocross is:
Solo is the SCCA brand name for autocross competition. Solo events are driving skill contests that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling characteristics. This is accomplished by driving a course that is designated by traffic cones on a low hazard location, such as a parking lot or inactive airstrip. While speeds are no greater than those normally encountered in legal highway driving, the combination of concentration and car feedback creates an adrenaline pumping experience. It is like being in a movie chase scene, only you are holding onto the steering wheel instead of a box of popcorn!
Jay Storm
| blueribbon | 03-16-2007 10:17 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17381312]these are directly from the insurance handbook.
EXCLUSIONS
A. We do not provide Liability Coverage for any "insured":
4. Any vehicle, located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.
Here, in reference specifically to physical damage to the vehicle
EXCLUSIONS
We will not pay for:
12. Loss to "your covered auto" or any "nonowned auto", located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or
speed contest.[/QUOTE]
That always is your declaration page when you buy insurance. This isn't something new.
Mike
EXCLUSIONS
A. We do not provide Liability Coverage for any "insured":
4. Any vehicle, located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.
Here, in reference specifically to physical damage to the vehicle
EXCLUSIONS
We will not pay for:
12. Loss to "your covered auto" or any "nonowned auto", located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
a. Competing in; or
b. Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or
speed contest.[/QUOTE]
That always is your declaration page when you buy insurance. This isn't something new.
Mike
| evotech | 03-16-2007 11:42 PM |
[quote=WRXedUSA;17381843]This screams of "350z-Evo-Porsche Incident"
:lol:
But yeah, pay to play.
-chet[/quote]
That was a bad one. Spoke to the guy responsible a few weeks ago and it is in court right now.
:lol:
But yeah, pay to play.
-chet[/quote]
That was a bad one. Spoke to the guy responsible a few weeks ago and it is in court right now.
| Aleksey | 03-17-2007 01:06 AM |
So, really, what does happen if you have just a regular insurance and hit a car during an AutoX event or, God forbids, a worker/visitor while driving through the course?
I understand that all insurances are different but they all do exclude racing events from their coverage, and there is no doubt they WILL insist that AutoX is a racing event.
I'd hate to pay someone's salary for the rest of my life. AutoX (or any X) isn't worth it.
I understand that all insurances are different but they all do exclude racing events from their coverage, and there is no doubt they WILL insist that AutoX is a racing event.
I'd hate to pay someone's salary for the rest of my life. AutoX (or any X) isn't worth it.
| 101rs | 03-17-2007 08:09 AM |
You guys are lucky, up here in Ontario, Canada we don't have that Insurance Exclusions. Ours reads somewhere on the lines of "the car shall not be used for motorsports". so if you caught using the car on the track or at a autox by your insurance company, you can say bye bye to insurance and driving for at least 5 years.
| jnorth85 | 03-17-2007 10:46 AM |
ok ok, first off the information comes from the ISO they provide national insurance guidelines, they apply to every state in the nation (hint national) my wife works for an insurance company, and is good friends with the head of personal auto. These exclusions where recently re written.
As far as having a driving instructor in the car- excluded because you are on a racing surface.
This information is NEW information because it was just re-written a couple months ago (for you nay Sayers this is the last time im going to say this)
[QUOTE=REX8;17383963]It doesn't fit into anything you posted above. It�s not practicing, etc. for any racing or timed event.
If it is excluded, it�s not by anything you posted.[/QUOTE]
You are on a racing surface= not covered.
[QUOTE=Storm;17384302]That is why the SCCA is careful not to define autocross as racing.
From [URL="http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~="]http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~=[/URL] the SCCA site defining what autocross is:
Solo is the SCCA brand name for autocross competition. Solo events are driving skill contests that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling characteristics. This is accomplished by driving a course that is designated by traffic cones on a low hazard location, such as a parking lot or inactive airstrip. While speeds are no greater than those normally encountered in legal highway driving, the combination of concentration and car feedback creates an adrenaline pumping experience. It is like being in a movie chase scene, only you are holding onto the steering wheel instead of a box of popcorn!
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
Auto X is most deffinately not covered, you are partisipating in a timed event and you are competeing for the best time in essence "racing"
You were previously able to get insurance coverage at a driving school ( with an instructor in the car) because the only exclusion listed was a timed driving event. because this has changed you are no longer covered with a driving instructor in the car, Auto X was never covered and never will be.
The reason i posted this information was for those of you who attend driving schools, if some idiot looses control and smashes you car you WILL NOT be covered. previously you would have been due to the fact that you were at a driving school and were under instruction from a "professional" driver/teacher.
As far as having a driving instructor in the car- excluded because you are on a racing surface.
This information is NEW information because it was just re-written a couple months ago (for you nay Sayers this is the last time im going to say this)
[QUOTE=REX8;17383963]It doesn't fit into anything you posted above. It�s not practicing, etc. for any racing or timed event.
If it is excluded, it�s not by anything you posted.[/QUOTE]
You are on a racing surface= not covered.
[QUOTE=Storm;17384302]That is why the SCCA is careful not to define autocross as racing.
From [URL="http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~="]http://www.scca.org/Solo/Solo2.asp?IdS=0B7315-308A6E0&x=050|030&~=[/URL] the SCCA site defining what autocross is:
Solo is the SCCA brand name for autocross competition. Solo events are driving skill contests that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling characteristics. This is accomplished by driving a course that is designated by traffic cones on a low hazard location, such as a parking lot or inactive airstrip. While speeds are no greater than those normally encountered in legal highway driving, the combination of concentration and car feedback creates an adrenaline pumping experience. It is like being in a movie chase scene, only you are holding onto the steering wheel instead of a box of popcorn!
Jay Storm[/QUOTE]
Auto X is most deffinately not covered, you are partisipating in a timed event and you are competeing for the best time in essence "racing"
You were previously able to get insurance coverage at a driving school ( with an instructor in the car) because the only exclusion listed was a timed driving event. because this has changed you are no longer covered with a driving instructor in the car, Auto X was never covered and never will be.
The reason i posted this information was for those of you who attend driving schools, if some idiot looses control and smashes you car you WILL NOT be covered. previously you would have been due to the fact that you were at a driving school and were under instruction from a "professional" driver/teacher.
| Web Foot STi | 03-17-2007 10:55 AM |
Nailing the corner worker is covered under SCCA, or what ever group is putting on the Auto-X, or "Driving School". When I was involved on the business side of a local club the fee for the big track to the city was slightly less that the days liability policy.
Cheap plug: BMW ACA is doing it again April 6th at PIR. (The day before Subie Fest...)
It's always a risk for a small club to hold a track day and have enough people turn out to cover the bills. The clubs insurance does not cover your car, or any damage to the track. The old price was $600 for each section of guard rail.
Cheap plug: BMW ACA is doing it again April 6th at PIR. (The day before Subie Fest...)
It's always a risk for a small club to hold a track day and have enough people turn out to cover the bills. The clubs insurance does not cover your car, or any damage to the track. The old price was $600 for each section of guard rail.
| akuhner | 03-17-2007 02:30 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17387627]ok ok, first off the information comes from the ISO they provide national insurance guidelines, they apply to every state in the nation (hint national) my wife works for an insurance company, and is good friends with the head of personal auto. These exclusions where recently re written.[/QUOTE]
Ah! Context! Thank you! :)
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17387627]The reason i posted this information was for those of you who attend driving schools, if some idiot looses control and smashes you car you WILL NOT be covered. [/QUOTE]
Nor do I think you should be covered. Driving schools that benefit the insurance companies, the ones that teach you car control, accident avoidance, etc. are great (because most of them are in school provided cars). A driver attending a track day with instruction probably doesn't decrease your odds of having an accident on the road as much as the odds of an accident go up when you are on the track as opposed to the road. No benefit for them, so why should they cover you? You aren't paying for competition insurance, you are paying for normal road driving insurance. It's all about the statistics, and the fine print!
Sucks to be in Ontario! I heard they also banned any form of timed driving on public roads, even TSDs!
Ah! Context! Thank you! :)
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17387627]The reason i posted this information was for those of you who attend driving schools, if some idiot looses control and smashes you car you WILL NOT be covered. [/QUOTE]
Nor do I think you should be covered. Driving schools that benefit the insurance companies, the ones that teach you car control, accident avoidance, etc. are great (because most of them are in school provided cars). A driver attending a track day with instruction probably doesn't decrease your odds of having an accident on the road as much as the odds of an accident go up when you are on the track as opposed to the road. No benefit for them, so why should they cover you? You aren't paying for competition insurance, you are paying for normal road driving insurance. It's all about the statistics, and the fine print!
Sucks to be in Ontario! I heard they also banned any form of timed driving on public roads, even TSDs!
| Don-HRD | 03-17-2007 05:00 PM |
Years ago a competitor "friend" of mine made about 6months of payments on a SER he totaled at a trackday. After the 6 month wait he took the car out in the middle of nowhere with his trailer and a couple of buddys and shoved the thing down in a ravine. Went home and files a stolen car report and calls the insurance people. Well after a couple of days the car is found, the claim goes from stolen car to totaled car and the insurance starts thier "investigation". Ordinarily this is pretty cursory and he actually probably would have gotten away with the whole thing IF when the investigator ran the guys name it popped right up because the SCCA had of course filed an incident report, which was in some database somewhere. The police took a dim view of the false theft report, and the insurance comapany took a dimmer view of the attempted fraud.
| akuhner | 03-17-2007 06:08 PM |
[QUOTE=Don-HRD;17390057]The police took a dim view of the false theft report, and the insurance comapany took a dimmer view of the attempted fraud.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Crime doesn't pay! So, what happens when you are caught in insurance fraud, do you end up blacklisted from the major insurance carriers?
:lol: Crime doesn't pay! So, what happens when you are caught in insurance fraud, do you end up blacklisted from the major insurance carriers?
| jnorth85 | 03-17-2007 07:21 PM |
[QUOTE=Don-HRD;17390057]Years ago a competitor "friend" of mine made about 6months of payments on a SER he totaled at a trackday. After the 6 month wait he took the car out in the middle of nowhere with his trailer and a couple of buddys and shoved the thing down in a ravine. Went home and files a stolen car report and calls the insurance people. Well after a couple of days the car is found, the claim goes from stolen car to totaled car and the insurance starts thier "investigation". Ordinarily this is pretty cursory and he actually probably would have gotten away with the whole thing IF when the investigator ran the guys name it popped right up because the SCCA had of course filed an incident report, which was in some database somewhere. The police took a dim view of the false theft report, and the insurance comapany took a dimmer view of the attempted fraud.[/QUOTE]
Wow that really sucks!!
Wow that really sucks!!
| Rice & Gravy | 03-17-2007 08:55 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17391003]Wow that really sucks!![/QUOTE]
Uh, no it doesn't. Dude got what he deserved for commiting insurance fraud and filing a false police report.
[QUOTE=fliz;17381785]This is why when you run a track day/autox you make sure the club has a liability policy for when a corner worker runs in front of your car.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Does the whole flag station jump out there too! :D
Uh, no it doesn't. Dude got what he deserved for commiting insurance fraud and filing a false police report.
[QUOTE=fliz;17381785]This is why when you run a track day/autox you make sure the club has a liability policy for when a corner worker runs in front of your car.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Does the whole flag station jump out there too! :D
| jnorth85 | 03-18-2007 12:03 PM |
[QUOTE=Rice & Gravy;17391725]Uh, no it doesn't. Dude got what he deserved for commiting insurance fraud and filing a false police report.
:lol: Does the whole flag station jump out there too! :D[/QUOTE]
I never said who it sucked for!
:lol: Does the whole flag station jump out there too! :D[/QUOTE]
I never said who it sucked for!
| akuhner | 03-18-2007 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17395431]I never said who it sucked for![/QUOTE]
:D :devil:
:D :devil:
| leecea | 03-18-2007 08:20 PM |
[QUOTE=evotech;17385120]That was a bad one. Spoke to the guy responsible a few weeks ago and it is in court right now.[/QUOTE]
In court for what? If we all agree we must pay to play, why is something like this in court?
In court for what? If we all agree we must pay to play, why is something like this in court?
| silver arrow | 03-18-2007 08:58 PM |
Because it is easy to say "pay to play" but when it comes time to pay for your totaled 911 out of pocket, everyone wants to sue.
| spazegun2213 | 03-18-2007 09:30 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;17399397]Because it is easy to say "pay to play" but when it comes time to pay for your totaled 911 out of pocket, everyone wants to sue.[/QUOTE]
wow I could have not said this better.... please note this thread on rennlist (a porsche forum)
[url]http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=337509[/url]
I would say that the OP really needs to talk to his wife. at least two of the posters here work in the industry [I]and[/I] are involved in motorsports of some kind. Trust me, your insurance company would rather pay for a totaled sti rather than a totaled gt3 rs... so I'm going to listen to these guys.
wow I could have not said this better.... please note this thread on rennlist (a porsche forum)
[url]http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=337509[/url]
I would say that the OP really needs to talk to his wife. at least two of the posters here work in the industry [I]and[/I] are involved in motorsports of some kind. Trust me, your insurance company would rather pay for a totaled sti rather than a totaled gt3 rs... so I'm going to listen to these guys.
| leecea | 03-18-2007 09:45 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow;17399397]Because it is easy to say "pay to play" but when it comes time to pay for your totaled 911 out of pocket, everyone wants to sue.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly right :mad:
That's exactly right :mad:
| culturedetox | 03-18-2007 09:52 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA;17381843]This screams of "350z-Evo-Porsche Incident"
:lol:
But yeah, pay to play.
-chet[/QUOTE]
info? haven't heard of this? :confused:
-patrick
:lol:
But yeah, pay to play.
-chet[/QUOTE]
info? haven't heard of this? :confused:
-patrick
| stretchsje | 03-19-2007 08:09 AM |
[QUOTE=waktasz;17381425]Looks like autocross isn't specifically excluded...the parking lots our events are in aren't designed for racing :)[/QUOTE]
An insurance executive once spoke at a local Mazda owner's club on the subject.
He stated that insurance companies consider autocross to be car control clinics, and for that reason, insurance companies not only insure your car during an autocross, they actually [i]encourage[/i] them. The guy made this point very clear.
I'm definately skeptical that all insurance companies feel that way, though, and I unfortunately don't remember which company he was from.
An insurance executive once spoke at a local Mazda owner's club on the subject.
He stated that insurance companies consider autocross to be car control clinics, and for that reason, insurance companies not only insure your car during an autocross, they actually [i]encourage[/i] them. The guy made this point very clear.
I'm definately skeptical that all insurance companies feel that way, though, and I unfortunately don't remember which company he was from.
| KC | 03-19-2007 08:26 AM |
[QUOTE=jnorth85;17387627]Auto X is most deffinately not covered, you are partisipating in a timed event and you are competeing for the best time in essence "racing"[/QUOTE]Incorrect. Auto-x is NOT racing. Racing means against someone else. Auto-x (SCCA Calls it SOLO) is you are running against yourself to get your own best time. SOLO = 1. What the local clubs do is list how you finish against other people, but with one car on the course for the most part, at a time, with hardly anything else to hit... you are safer than driving in traffic. You are out there to best your OWN time. Those that associate that with 'racing' is no different than saying "I need to be home 5 minutes earlier today"... is that racing?
I have a funny feeling your wife doesn't want you auto-xing and is telling YOU this so YOU can spend more Sundays with her instead of going away to play for the whole day. :)
[QUOTE]Auto X was never covered and never will be.[/QUOTE]BULL**** plain and simple. If you're going to be talking in absolutes like that, you may want to check your facts.
I know for a *fact* that most SOLO events HAVE been covered in the case of an incident. I've seen a car roll over at an event... and that was covered. I've seen cars into trees. Covered. I've seen the results of a Ford Cobra Mustang nailing a jersey barrier and pushing it 1/2 way out into a road ... covered.
I can only guess that unless I outlay the who's/what's with paper proof, you and/or your wife won't believe it anyways... but I, and others, can prove you/your wife wrong that incidents Solo events "have never been" covered.
You are 100% wrong in that statement.
Will they be covered in the future? It's a case by case basis... always has been, always will be. And one other thing... those are 'guidelines' not 'laws' or 'rules'. Companies can choose whether they wish to follow those 'guidelines' or change/ignore them at will. Again... you may wish to check your facts before coming on here and scaring the sheep.
--kC
I have a funny feeling your wife doesn't want you auto-xing and is telling YOU this so YOU can spend more Sundays with her instead of going away to play for the whole day. :)
[QUOTE]Auto X was never covered and never will be.[/QUOTE]BULL**** plain and simple. If you're going to be talking in absolutes like that, you may want to check your facts.
I know for a *fact* that most SOLO events HAVE been covered in the case of an incident. I've seen a car roll over at an event... and that was covered. I've seen cars into trees. Covered. I've seen the results of a Ford Cobra Mustang nailing a jersey barrier and pushing it 1/2 way out into a road ... covered.
I can only guess that unless I outlay the who's/what's with paper proof, you and/or your wife won't believe it anyways... but I, and others, can prove you/your wife wrong that incidents Solo events "have never been" covered.
You are 100% wrong in that statement.
Will they be covered in the future? It's a case by case basis... always has been, always will be. And one other thing... those are 'guidelines' not 'laws' or 'rules'. Companies can choose whether they wish to follow those 'guidelines' or change/ignore them at will. Again... you may wish to check your facts before coming on here and scaring the sheep.
--kC
| jnorth85 | 03-19-2007 11:03 AM |
[QUOTE=KC;17403273] those are 'guidelines' not 'laws' or 'rules'. Companies can choose whether they wish to follow those 'guidelines' or change/ignore them at will. Again... you may wish to check your facts before coming on here and scaring the sheep.
--kC[/QUOTE]
this is Totally false, these Guidelines are provided to the insurance companies to use as Rates calculations and coverage calculations. They ARE used it isn�t a choice. the ISO provides national statistics to insurance companies to calculate rates and coverage.
If you wish not to believe this it is your choice but you are playing with fire.
for any of you that are concerned I suggest you contact you insurance provider and specifically ask them your coverage at such events.
as far as the Auto X goes, I have seen 4 instances where the damages WERE NOT covered. as you said it�s a Case by case basis.
I have personally been involved in an accident at an Auto X where it was not covered.
my car was parked when a tent blew over and damaged a door/roof of my car.
Because I was attending a timed event it was not covered. thankfully the owner of the tent paid for the damages.
As far as your personal attacks on myself and my wife. she Auto X's with me as well as attends HPDE events with me we have been doing this together for nearly 5 years;)
--kC[/QUOTE]
this is Totally false, these Guidelines are provided to the insurance companies to use as Rates calculations and coverage calculations. They ARE used it isn�t a choice. the ISO provides national statistics to insurance companies to calculate rates and coverage.
If you wish not to believe this it is your choice but you are playing with fire.
for any of you that are concerned I suggest you contact you insurance provider and specifically ask them your coverage at such events.
as far as the Auto X goes, I have seen 4 instances where the damages WERE NOT covered. as you said it�s a Case by case basis.
I have personally been involved in an accident at an Auto X where it was not covered.
my car was parked when a tent blew over and damaged a door/roof of my car.
Because I was attending a timed event it was not covered. thankfully the owner of the tent paid for the damages.
As far as your personal attacks on myself and my wife. she Auto X's with me as well as attends HPDE events with me we have been doing this together for nearly 5 years;)
| leecea | 03-19-2007 12:45 PM |
<rant>
I believe the autox and HPDE community is making a short sighted decision if they try to get damages covered or encourage the idea that people can use semantic arguments to force a claim through.
The insurance industry, IMHO, does not want to cover competitive events. Whether it is a head-to-head race or a timed event in a parking lot, they don't want to incur a risk for which I don't believe they have data.
As long as they believe they can exclude these risks successfully, they may leave us alone. If they start to see (or even suspect) that they cannot stop claims incurred from these events, they will take further action. Participation will become a risk factor that either raises your rates or disqualifies you from better companies.
If we all take responsibility for our 'fun' activities and make it clear that they are not covered and no claims will be made, we can keep our good insurance rates. If autox and HPDE claims become common enough to be noticed, we will all suffer as the insurance companies impose more and more restrictions.
</rant>
I believe the autox and HPDE community is making a short sighted decision if they try to get damages covered or encourage the idea that people can use semantic arguments to force a claim through.
The insurance industry, IMHO, does not want to cover competitive events. Whether it is a head-to-head race or a timed event in a parking lot, they don't want to incur a risk for which I don't believe they have data.
As long as they believe they can exclude these risks successfully, they may leave us alone. If they start to see (or even suspect) that they cannot stop claims incurred from these events, they will take further action. Participation will become a risk factor that either raises your rates or disqualifies you from better companies.
If we all take responsibility for our 'fun' activities and make it clear that they are not covered and no claims will be made, we can keep our good insurance rates. If autox and HPDE claims become common enough to be noticed, we will all suffer as the insurance companies impose more and more restrictions.
</rant>
| akuhner | 03-19-2007 09:10 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea;17405738]<rant>If we all take responsibility for our 'fun' activities and make it clear that they are not covered and no claims will be made, we can keep our good insurance rates. If autox and HPDE claims become common enough to be noticed, we will all suffer as the insurance companies impose more and more restrictions. </rant>[/QUOTE]
I'm with you there! Why did you label it "rant" and not "the truth"? ;)
KC is right about the history, but wrong (sorry dude!) to fight for it. I used to feel the same way, but now that I'm in a sport where you are highly likely to total your car, but you still need regular insurance to cover you on the road sections, I have a different perspective. I WANT to be able to tell them it's a race car, that it's street legal, and that I only want coverage while I'm NOT racing. All this "it's not racing" stuff is BS. If Auto-x is only an instructional event, why do you then need Auto-x schools?
Bottom line, never "play" in your car, on the street or otherwise, thinking that your insurance will cover you. Everything is a calculated risk, even auto-x. The risk of seriously damaging your car at auto-x is low, the probability that insurance will cover it is slightly higher (than say a track event), so go for it!
I'm with you there! Why did you label it "rant" and not "the truth"? ;)
KC is right about the history, but wrong (sorry dude!) to fight for it. I used to feel the same way, but now that I'm in a sport where you are highly likely to total your car, but you still need regular insurance to cover you on the road sections, I have a different perspective. I WANT to be able to tell them it's a race car, that it's street legal, and that I only want coverage while I'm NOT racing. All this "it's not racing" stuff is BS. If Auto-x is only an instructional event, why do you then need Auto-x schools?
Bottom line, never "play" in your car, on the street or otherwise, thinking that your insurance will cover you. Everything is a calculated risk, even auto-x. The risk of seriously damaging your car at auto-x is low, the probability that insurance will cover it is slightly higher (than say a track event), so go for it!
| jcroy66 | 03-20-2007 08:56 AM |
FWIW, our insurance company added language about 4 years ago (soon after F&F) to the effect of "we do not cover participation in, practice for, nor cars prepared for, racing or speed contests". When I inquired about autocross, my agent (who is an independent agent, so the actual insurance company could have a different opinion) actually read up on autocross and said that because it was timed, it was a speed contest and was not covered. We were then concerned if our car was even covered on the street then, because "the car has been prepared" for autocross. I was assured that it would be covered on the street, just not during autocross.
In fact, we have a rider on our policy to ensure that all our mods are covered at replacement cost, since insurance typically only covers the original equipment on the car, not any modifications. It ends up costing us a lot more, but it's worth the piece of mind to us.
In fact, we have a rider on our policy to ensure that all our mods are covered at replacement cost, since insurance typically only covers the original equipment on the car, not any modifications. It ends up costing us a lot more, but it's worth the piece of mind to us.
| jnorth85 | 03-20-2007 09:25 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;17416933]FWIW, our insurance company added language about 4 years ago (soon after F&F) to the effect of "we do not cover participation in, practice for, nor cars prepared for, racing or speed contests". When I inquired about autocross, my agent (who is an independent agent, so the actual insurance company could have a different opinion) actually read up on autocross and said that because it was timed, it was a speed contest and was not covered. We were then concerned if our car was even covered on the street then, because "the car has been prepared" for autocross. I was assured that it would be covered on the street, just not during autocross.
In fact, we have a rider on our policy to ensure that all our mods are covered at replacement cost, since insurance typically only covers the original equipment on the car, not any modifications. It ends up costing us a lot more, but it's worth the piece of mind to us.[/QUOTE]
I also have this additional coverage for modifications, all my insurance company requires is proof of purchase of the part and they will replace it for the full price paid.
i had a Prodrive lip damaged from road Debris that was fully paid for.
In fact, we have a rider on our policy to ensure that all our mods are covered at replacement cost, since insurance typically only covers the original equipment on the car, not any modifications. It ends up costing us a lot more, but it's worth the piece of mind to us.[/QUOTE]
I also have this additional coverage for modifications, all my insurance company requires is proof of purchase of the part and they will replace it for the full price paid.
i had a Prodrive lip damaged from road Debris that was fully paid for.
| LastResort | 03-20-2007 09:38 AM |
[QUOTE=Web Foot STi;17387669]Nailing the corner worker is covered under SCCA, or what ever group is putting on the Auto-X, or "Driving School". [/QUOTE]This is only sort of true. A corner work could sue you for any number of things, now the point is that your insurance companies deep pockets would no longer be standing with you.
On an unrelated note, I think arguing that Auto crossing isn't racing because it's a solo car timed event is a bit asinine. I doubt there are many people in here that would argue that rally isn't racing for those very same points.
On an unrelated note, I think arguing that Auto crossing isn't racing because it's a solo car timed event is a bit asinine. I doubt there are many people in here that would argue that rally isn't racing for those very same points.
| Scooby South | 03-20-2007 09:55 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;17416933]FWIW, our insurance company added language about 4 years ago (soon after F&F) to the effect of "we do not cover participation in, practice for, nor cars prepared for, racing or speed contests". When I inquired about autocross, my agent (who is an independent agent, so the actual insurance company could have a different opinion) actually read up on autocross and said that because it was timed, it was a speed contest and was not covered. We were then concerned if our car was even covered on the street then, because "the car has been prepared" for autocross. I was assured that it would be covered on the street, just not during autocross.
In fact, we have a rider on our policy to ensure that all our mods are covered at replacement cost, since insurance typically only covers the original equipment on the car, not any modifications. It ends up costing us a lot more, but it's worth the piece of mind to us.[/QUOTE]
exactly what my agent said...
Bill
In fact, we have a rider on our policy to ensure that all our mods are covered at replacement cost, since insurance typically only covers the original equipment on the car, not any modifications. It ends up costing us a lot more, but it's worth the piece of mind to us.[/QUOTE]
exactly what my agent said...
Bill
| Jack | 03-20-2007 12:21 PM |
Read YOUR policy!
I live in the state where the PorscheButtCrack first got this all reworded. A recap on that....Mr. Buttcrack cracks up his Porsche on the track. Gets paid for a total (not mentioning that it was on the track). Mr Buttcrackgeniusdriver takes his NEW Porsche to the track and cracks it up. Gets paid for the total again (no mention of track). Mr. BC then goes back and says "well, I had all these modifications to my car". Insurance then goes to investigate......I don't know what modifications, but since he was so smart, I'm thinking he put in for a cage and wanted the money for it. They find that he was on the track both times. New wording in my insurance and lots of others the following year. This was maybe 10 years ago from what I remember. My parents owned an insurance agency at the time and my mom always highlighted anything that was related to motorsports. Well, the thing was yellow highligher like a caution light. I did read it. It said that any organized automotive event was not covered. This included anything. Autocross, track, tsd, parade!
My track car is now a throw away. If it is totalled on the track, I get help pushing the pile of steel into the trailer and go to work the next day in my daily driver.
You policy may be worded differently. Read it to know what is and is not covered.
jack
I live in the state where the PorscheButtCrack first got this all reworded. A recap on that....Mr. Buttcrack cracks up his Porsche on the track. Gets paid for a total (not mentioning that it was on the track). Mr Buttcrackgeniusdriver takes his NEW Porsche to the track and cracks it up. Gets paid for the total again (no mention of track). Mr. BC then goes back and says "well, I had all these modifications to my car". Insurance then goes to investigate......I don't know what modifications, but since he was so smart, I'm thinking he put in for a cage and wanted the money for it. They find that he was on the track both times. New wording in my insurance and lots of others the following year. This was maybe 10 years ago from what I remember. My parents owned an insurance agency at the time and my mom always highlighted anything that was related to motorsports. Well, the thing was yellow highligher like a caution light. I did read it. It said that any organized automotive event was not covered. This included anything. Autocross, track, tsd, parade!
My track car is now a throw away. If it is totalled on the track, I get help pushing the pile of steel into the trailer and go to work the next day in my daily driver.
You policy may be worded differently. Read it to know what is and is not covered.
jack
| jasonallenross | 03-20-2007 03:37 PM |
I called my insurance company and faxed information about HPDE's from my local BMWCCA chapter, where they go to great lengths to explain how they aren't speed contests, racing, there is an instructor in the car, safety safety safety.
Denied. No coverage for HPDE's, autocross, etc. I requested a call directly from the underwriter to explain since I was dealing with an intermediary, but I'm not holding out hope. My only hope is that they actively encourage driver training and I might be able to convince them otherwise .... but I give it a low percentage chance of passing at all.
Denied. No coverage for HPDE's, autocross, etc. I requested a call directly from the underwriter to explain since I was dealing with an intermediary, but I'm not holding out hope. My only hope is that they actively encourage driver training and I might be able to convince them otherwise .... but I give it a low percentage chance of passing at all.
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