| Fred Zaplitny | 05-12-2002 10:33 PM |
Now you see why I hate Ferrari and M Schumacher....
See this thread:
[url]http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186448[/url]
And now my input:
I hate Micheal Schumacher and his smug little smile he has when he wins. I hate Ferrari and the way they want to win the championship. I could go on, but the above thread tells the story, F-1 has lost some luster. I will still go to the USGP. I will still wear my Montoya hat too. Down with the tifosi! Down with MS! Ruebens should have won that race. Forget about the fact that Schumacher gave RB the podium, the trophy and the press conference seat, as John Felstead said in the above linked thread, MS could have slowed down to let Reubens win. This is BULL****!!!!
This wil mar F1 for a long time.
The tifosi should be shamed right about now.
Fred
disgruntled F1 fan.
[url]http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186448[/url]
And now my input:
I hate Micheal Schumacher and his smug little smile he has when he wins. I hate Ferrari and the way they want to win the championship. I could go on, but the above thread tells the story, F-1 has lost some luster. I will still go to the USGP. I will still wear my Montoya hat too. Down with the tifosi! Down with MS! Ruebens should have won that race. Forget about the fact that Schumacher gave RB the podium, the trophy and the press conference seat, as John Felstead said in the above linked thread, MS could have slowed down to let Reubens win. This is BULL****!!!!
This wil mar F1 for a long time.
The tifosi should be shamed right about now.
Fred
disgruntled F1 fan.
| STi_Pete | 05-12-2002 10:50 PM |
Fred it happened last year to if I recall correctly. I also believe it was scrutinized last year by the F1 officials..
But I understand where you are coming from, taking away a great drivers win for the sake of what 4 drivers points difference, as opposed to the joy of winning his second Gran Prix ( Barrichello )
Bahhhhhh
But Still Ferrari is # 1
No Ifs, Ands, Buts, About it.....
But I understand where you are coming from, taking away a great drivers win for the sake of what 4 drivers points difference, as opposed to the joy of winning his second Gran Prix ( Barrichello )
Bahhhhhh
But Still Ferrari is # 1
No Ifs, Ands, Buts, About it.....
| JenisonWRX | 05-12-2002 10:53 PM |
[QUOTE]taking away a great drivers win for the sake of what 4 drivers points difference[/QUOTE]
they didn't take away anything...he still gets paid the same at the end of the day...hell I wouldn't doubt if Ferrari slips him a bonus check...
its their job...
they didn't take away anything...he still gets paid the same at the end of the day...hell I wouldn't doubt if Ferrari slips him a bonus check...
its their job...
| Fred Zaplitny | 05-12-2002 11:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JenisonWRX [/i]
[B]
they didn't take away anything...he still gets paid the same at the end of the day...hell I wouldn't doubt if Ferrari slips him a bonus check...
its their job... [/B][/QUOTE]
But I'm a purist fan and this pisses me off beyond belief!!!!!
I don't care about Ferrari's inside ****, I want a pure race. That's what I pay for.
ps. Jenison, are you going to the USGP?
[B]
they didn't take away anything...he still gets paid the same at the end of the day...hell I wouldn't doubt if Ferrari slips him a bonus check...
its their job... [/B][/QUOTE]
But I'm a purist fan and this pisses me off beyond belief!!!!!
I don't care about Ferrari's inside ****, I want a pure race. That's what I pay for.
ps. Jenison, are you going to the USGP?
| Bonzo | 05-12-2002 11:54 PM |
why is this getting so much press? team tactics have been going on since racing began:confused: it happens every year in every form of racing. we all know who won. he (MS) even demanded Rubens stand in the #1 spot on the podium. its all about competition, money and being number one. one things for sure this will never change.
| Dr. WOT | 05-12-2002 11:59 PM |
I never thougth I'd see the day where I boo'ed a win by Ferrari. [img]http://i-club.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif[/img]
[quote]
MS: How stupid would we look if we lost that championship by 3 points?"[/quote]
My reply would be just slightly [i]less[/i] stupid than they looked today. That was senseless and embarrassing. Rubins should be ashamed for allowing himself to be manipulated to the point that the German national anthem played for him... what a joke.
Someone on another message board made a good point: what if something happens to MS and RB becomes Ferrari's best shot at the WDC? How appropriate it would be for them to loose the championship by these 4 points.
For the good of the sport I hope the FIA grows some balls and steps in to take back all of Ferrari's team points, and Schumacher's win and driver points. And I say that as a REAL Tifosi. They've done this before, but never like this... it was unjustifiable today.
[quote]
MS: How stupid would we look if we lost that championship by 3 points?"[/quote]
My reply would be just slightly [i]less[/i] stupid than they looked today. That was senseless and embarrassing. Rubins should be ashamed for allowing himself to be manipulated to the point that the German national anthem played for him... what a joke.
Someone on another message board made a good point: what if something happens to MS and RB becomes Ferrari's best shot at the WDC? How appropriate it would be for them to loose the championship by these 4 points.
For the good of the sport I hope the FIA grows some balls and steps in to take back all of Ferrari's team points, and Schumacher's win and driver points. And I say that as a REAL Tifosi. They've done this before, but never like this... it was unjustifiable today.
| mjiWRX | 05-13-2002 01:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bonzo [/i]
[B]why is this getting so much press? team tactics have been going on since racing began:confused: it happens every year in every form of racing. we all know who won. he (MS) even demanded Rubens stand in the #1 spot on the podium. its all about competition, money and being number one. one things for sure this will never change. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are correct. This is nothing new. I personally do not like any sort of team tactics (i.e. blocking, giving up your position on team orders). Its definitely not a sportsmanlike thing to do, but then again, what sport has any sportsmanship at all these days in a ME, ME, ME world. Heck, if Dale Earnhardt didn't have his son and Michael Waltrip (both DEI drivers) in front of him last year, he might still be alive today. He was blocking like a mad man and that ultimately lead to the wreck.
WRC rules anyway.
[B]why is this getting so much press? team tactics have been going on since racing began:confused: it happens every year in every form of racing. we all know who won. he (MS) even demanded Rubens stand in the #1 spot on the podium. its all about competition, money and being number one. one things for sure this will never change. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are correct. This is nothing new. I personally do not like any sort of team tactics (i.e. blocking, giving up your position on team orders). Its definitely not a sportsmanlike thing to do, but then again, what sport has any sportsmanship at all these days in a ME, ME, ME world. Heck, if Dale Earnhardt didn't have his son and Michael Waltrip (both DEI drivers) in front of him last year, he might still be alive today. He was blocking like a mad man and that ultimately lead to the wreck.
WRC rules anyway.
| nhalterman | 05-13-2002 09:46 AM |
You really can't blame Schumacher, it wasn't his call. It's just an unfortunate reality of the state the F1 is in right now.
Ferrari's budget is over $200 millon a year. So they want championships. It's a team sport, and Rubens signed a contract to be the #2 driver.
If Rubens wants to win races he should NOT be with Ferrari. The problem is it's damn near impossible to beat Ferrari right now. So he's in a no win situation.
Don't get me wrong, I think the entire thing stinks, and I feel for Rubens. This is simply what F1 is....big business.
Ferrari's budget is over $200 millon a year. So they want championships. It's a team sport, and Rubens signed a contract to be the #2 driver.
If Rubens wants to win races he should NOT be with Ferrari. The problem is it's damn near impossible to beat Ferrari right now. So he's in a no win situation.
Don't get me wrong, I think the entire thing stinks, and I feel for Rubens. This is simply what F1 is....big business.
| TimStevens | 05-13-2002 09:54 AM |
You sure as hell can blame Schumacher. Just because he was told to pass Rubens didn't mean he had to do it. If Rubens had refused to let Schuey pass, he would have been out on his ass this morning. But, nobody's going to fire Michael Schumacher; he could have very easily cruised in behind Rubens and later told the press they were just getting close together for a photo-op.
Not saying Schumacher's a bad guy for following orders (I personally don't like him too much, and this doesn't help that sentiment any), but it was his decision to make.
Anyway, the whole thing stinks, but I don't know that there's anything the FIA can do short of abolishing the driver's championship and only having manufacturer's points. It doesn't matter, though, the bad PR Ferrari is getting is better than any drive-through penalty the FIA could enforce :D
-tim
p.s. Kudos to Villeneuve! Here's hoping he gets a good ride next year!
Not saying Schumacher's a bad guy for following orders (I personally don't like him too much, and this doesn't help that sentiment any), but it was his decision to make.
Anyway, the whole thing stinks, but I don't know that there's anything the FIA can do short of abolishing the driver's championship and only having manufacturer's points. It doesn't matter, though, the bad PR Ferrari is getting is better than any drive-through penalty the FIA could enforce :D
-tim
p.s. Kudos to Villeneuve! Here's hoping he gets a good ride next year!
| nhalterman | 05-13-2002 10:00 AM |
I agree that it would have been cool if Michael would have refused team orders and not passed Rubens. It would have been the smart PR thing to do. :)
| Al | 05-13-2002 10:18 AM |
In 56 Collins stopped and gave Fangio his car. Hill let Prost by, JV moved over to let Hill by, DC let Mika by..............it's a team sport and the goal is to win BOTH the driver and constructor championship. The orders are issued very high up by the guys who write the checks. If you work for a company and the boss tells you to do something because he thinks it's in the best interest of HIS company, you do it or look for other work.
| Patrick L | 05-13-2002 10:22 AM |
Check this out.
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/020513133515.shtml[/url]
I hope FIA does something about this.
[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/020513133515.shtml[/url]
I hope FIA does something about this.
| doobie | 05-13-2002 10:28 AM |
Rubins is by far my favorite driver and it pains me to see this happen. But this is a team effort and the team has one thing in mind, take their best opportunity and try to win a championship. Yes, it would be trajic if RB has the best chance at the end of the year to win and he lose by a slim margin, but that is unforseeable at this time. Their best chance is with MS. Any other team in that position should and would have done it.
Just my opinion. Rubins is the best!
Steve
Just my opinion. Rubins is the best!
Steve
| gtguy | 05-13-2002 10:40 AM |
If you re-view the race, you see that Schumacher was correct in his mention of the telemetry, and how much both he and Barrichello were lifting. I think that this, and his body language/demanor at the press conference speaks to how he felt about the move.
I can't speak to anyone's intentions not being that person, but I honestly think, when I watch it again, that Schumacher was hoping that by going slow enough, Barrichello would cross the line first and he could claim to have left it too late, or something. Braking would have been too blatant.
I know that many people think that MS controls every aspect of the team, but I for one believe him when he says that he wasn't told about the decision until right before it happened. Either that, or he's the best actor in the universe.
I'm sure Ferrari feels that it's hitched its wagon to Schumacher, and whenever possible, he should be allowed to win. If the FIA does anything, what they'll most likely do is strip the Constructors' points from Ferrari for the team's decision. MS and Rubens were just following orders.
Montoya summed up the matter from a driver's perspective by saying something to the effect of "What can you do? You either do it or find another job."
Kevin
I can't speak to anyone's intentions not being that person, but I honestly think, when I watch it again, that Schumacher was hoping that by going slow enough, Barrichello would cross the line first and he could claim to have left it too late, or something. Braking would have been too blatant.
I know that many people think that MS controls every aspect of the team, but I for one believe him when he says that he wasn't told about the decision until right before it happened. Either that, or he's the best actor in the universe.
I'm sure Ferrari feels that it's hitched its wagon to Schumacher, and whenever possible, he should be allowed to win. If the FIA does anything, what they'll most likely do is strip the Constructors' points from Ferrari for the team's decision. MS and Rubens were just following orders.
Montoya summed up the matter from a driver's perspective by saying something to the effect of "What can you do? You either do it or find another job."
Kevin
| the_gille | 05-13-2002 11:13 AM |
Very good atricle here. If I could organize my disappointment and anger into words it would probably sound like this\/
[URL]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/020513133515.shtml[/url][/URL]
[URL]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?[url]http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/020513133515.shtml[/url][/URL]
| callawayv | 05-13-2002 11:36 AM |
If you have followed F-1 for any lenth of time, this has ALWAYS been a practice by teams in F-1, it's nothing new at all. Like MS or not, fine, it still doesn't change your watching probably the greatest driver in F-1 history. And no, I didn't like yesterdays win either, it sucked.
I thought after the David Coultard letting Mika go by him a couple years ago that the FIA made a rule forbidding that kind of behaivior.
I thought after the David Coultard letting Mika go by him a couple years ago that the FIA made a rule forbidding that kind of behaivior.
| johnfelstead | 05-13-2002 11:56 AM |
Well, for Sir Stirling Moss to comment on this is something big. This guy is a masive in terms of credibility. This is what he said.
[quote]Sir Stirling Moss: "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it.[/quote]
[quote]Sir Stirling Moss: "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it.[/quote]
| JenisonWRX | 05-13-2002 12:03 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny [/i]
[B]
But I'm a purist fan and this pisses me off beyond belief!!!!!
I don't care about Ferrari's inside ****, I want a pure race. That's what I pay for.
ps. Jenison, are you going to the USGP? [/B][/QUOTE]
I have plans too ;)
[B]
But I'm a purist fan and this pisses me off beyond belief!!!!!
I don't care about Ferrari's inside ****, I want a pure race. That's what I pay for.
ps. Jenison, are you going to the USGP? [/B][/QUOTE]
I have plans too ;)
| Dr. WOT | 05-13-2002 01:09 PM |
You all probably know by now but the FIA World Council has called Ferrari and their two drivers to meet before them. I fully expect action to be taken because:
1> they need to save face on this one, badly; I've never seen the F1 community so united since Senna's death.
2> a heavy penalty to Ferrari can close up the point standings and give some sort of compition to the season
Ironic that #2 makes #1 even worse, but they have done it before so I don't expect anything different this time.
When's the next Champcar race? :lol:
1> they need to save face on this one, badly; I've never seen the F1 community so united since Senna's death.
2> a heavy penalty to Ferrari can close up the point standings and give some sort of compition to the season
Ironic that #2 makes #1 even worse, but they have done it before so I don't expect anything different this time.
When's the next Champcar race? :lol:
| callawayv | 05-13-2002 01:34 PM |
I got this from the FIA page, I thought everyone would like to know and follow this:
FEDERATION INTERNATIONALE DE L'AUTOMOBILE
PRESS RELEASE
2002 AUSTRIAN GRAND PRIX
Following (i) an incident during the last lap of the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix and (ii)
incidents during the subsequent podium procedure, the FIA has summoned the
Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and the drivers Michael Schumacher and Rubens
Barrichello to appear before the World Motor Sports Council at its next meeting,
which will be held in Paris on 26 June 2002.
FEDERATION INTERNATIONALE DE L'AUTOMOBILE
PRESS RELEASE
2002 AUSTRIAN GRAND PRIX
Following (i) an incident during the last lap of the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix and (ii)
incidents during the subsequent podium procedure, the FIA has summoned the
Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and the drivers Michael Schumacher and Rubens
Barrichello to appear before the World Motor Sports Council at its next meeting,
which will be held in Paris on 26 June 2002.
| nhalterman | 05-13-2002 02:02 PM |
:eek: I smell a wrist slapping coming. :rolleyes:
| TimStevens | 05-13-2002 02:27 PM |
But not until June 26th... the series will be half-over by then, and Shumacher will probably already have the title regardless :rolleyes:
-tim
-tim
| Zahnster | 05-13-2002 02:33 PM |
People have expressed disappointment in the event better than I ever could so I won't add any further on that front.
As far as the FIA calling the team and drivers. I would think the only thing the FIA is actually going to do something about is the special actions on the podium and the seating in the press conference. If the FIA does something that actually matters about the race itself, I'll be suprised.
As far as the FIA calling the team and drivers. I would think the only thing the FIA is actually going to do something about is the special actions on the podium and the seating in the press conference. If the FIA does something that actually matters about the race itself, I'll be suprised.
| Dr. WOT | 05-13-2002 03:54 PM |
I disagree about the wrist slap. This is too much of the wrong kind of publicity.
The sporting code is written with very open language which could support either nothing being done, as has been the case in the past, or extreme measures like excluding MS or Ferrari (or both) from the Championship. I doubt it will go that far because it is bad for spor... err business.
The sporting code is written with very open language which could support either nothing being done, as has been the case in the past, or extreme measures like excluding MS or Ferrari (or both) from the Championship. I doubt it will go that far because it is bad for spor... err business.
| JenisonWRX | 05-13-2002 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dr. WOT [/i]
[B]I disagree about the wrist slap. This is too much of the wrong kind of publicity.
The sporting code is written with very open language which could support either nothing being done, as has been the case in the past, or extreme measures like excluding MS or Ferrari (or both) from the Championship. I doubt it will go that far because it is bad for spor... err business. [/B][/QUOTE]
it is a business...period. if it was a true sportmanship compitition...then there would be no teams. Just show up and race. he who crosses the finish first...wins a trophy...and thats it.
anything + money = business
[B]I disagree about the wrist slap. This is too much of the wrong kind of publicity.
The sporting code is written with very open language which could support either nothing being done, as has been the case in the past, or extreme measures like excluding MS or Ferrari (or both) from the Championship. I doubt it will go that far because it is bad for spor... err business. [/B][/QUOTE]
it is a business...period. if it was a true sportmanship compitition...then there would be no teams. Just show up and race. he who crosses the finish first...wins a trophy...and thats it.
anything + money = business
| Bonzo | 05-13-2002 06:44 PM |
I agree it is a business.
The big publicity winners here are Ferrari and Bernie. Bernie's big show is now on the front and home page of every major publication out there. Everyones talking about F1. It's rather odd to see an F1 blurb on MSN sports top news items. Come 2 weeks all of these non F1 fan are gonna say, "hey lets check out that F1 race". errr something like that:D
The big publicity winners here are Ferrari and Bernie. Bernie's big show is now on the front and home page of every major publication out there. Everyones talking about F1. It's rather odd to see an F1 blurb on MSN sports top news items. Come 2 weeks all of these non F1 fan are gonna say, "hey lets check out that F1 race". errr something like that:D
| TampaWRX | 05-13-2002 07:44 PM |
I doubt they'll be checking out the race, though it will be on ABC, so who knows. Let's hope they don't!! :mad:
Go here if you're as disheartened with F1 as I am at this point: [url]http://www.petitiononline.com/F1race/petition.html[/url]
Go here if you're as disheartened with F1 as I am at this point: [url]http://www.petitiononline.com/F1race/petition.html[/url]
| WRSport | 05-13-2002 10:05 PM |
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sir Stirling Moss: "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm very glad to See Moss being vocal on this one.
Yes, we have seen this before, but yesterday was indeed something a little different than at least anything I have viewed over the last 10 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sir Stirling Moss: "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael, who clearly did not want any part of it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm very glad to See Moss being vocal on this one.
Yes, we have seen this before, but yesterday was indeed something a little different than at least anything I have viewed over the last 10 years.
| ArtGecko | 05-13-2002 11:41 PM |
What I would like to see, would be for RB to lift again...say when he is in the lead with Michael out for some reason, and let someone else go by.
"Oh, I thought you wanted me to do that everytime!"
"Oh, I thought you wanted me to do that everytime!"
| Al | 05-14-2002 09:24 AM |
Sterling Moss' comments are not a surprise. He lost a WDC in 1958 due to team orders...............he's held the grudge ever since.
| tifosi77 | 05-15-2002 01:35 AM |
The thing that will mar F1 for a long time is Imola 1994, if you think that this is the first time that a driver has slowed considerably for his teammate to pass him then you forget malaysia (I believe 1999) when MS let Irvine through. You also forget that Coulthard let Mika by at OZ in 1998 so boo hoo to all of you and admit the real reason that you hate us is the fact that we have embarassed every team in the field this season. SO go root for Montoya cause he won't get a sniff while MS is at Maranello
| WRSport | 05-15-2002 01:39 AM |
I'm sorry but I'm the biggest Ferrari & MS fan as well.
And I have yet to see a single person post who thinks this was the first time team orders have been in affect.
And I have yet to see a single person post who thinks this was the first time team orders have been in affect.
| OnTheGas | 05-15-2002 03:00 AM |
Help Me Understand...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by WRSport [/i]
[B]...I have yet to see a single person post who thinks this was the first time team orders have been in affect. [/B][/QUOTE]So is your point that the problem is [b]not[/b] the team orders?
What did Ferrari do which is so upsetting or wrong?
[B]...I have yet to see a single person post who thinks this was the first time team orders have been in affect. [/B][/QUOTE]So is your point that the problem is [b]not[/b] the team orders?
What did Ferrari do which is so upsetting or wrong?
| TampaWRX | 05-15-2002 09:54 AM |
I love this stuff: "so boo hoo to all of you and admit the real reason that you hate [b]us[/b] is the fact that [b]we[/b] have embarassed every team in the field this season." :lol:
Michael is that you? A Ferrari mechanic perhaps? This is like football fans who refer to how "they" did the past weekend.
Michael Schumacher is the kind of driver who has no problem with charity and seems to enjoy running into other drivers when securing tight championships (Adelaide '94, Jerez '97). That is why I cheer against him. Ferrari exemplifies many of the things that are wrong with this world...i.e. a lack of integrity and respect...that is why I wish them failure.
It has nothing to do with there fans, since after all, all you are is a means of finance for the team. Cheer them all you want, buy all the red stuff you can find, it's not my money...thank goodness. :D
Michael is that you? A Ferrari mechanic perhaps? This is like football fans who refer to how "they" did the past weekend.
Michael Schumacher is the kind of driver who has no problem with charity and seems to enjoy running into other drivers when securing tight championships (Adelaide '94, Jerez '97). That is why I cheer against him. Ferrari exemplifies many of the things that are wrong with this world...i.e. a lack of integrity and respect...that is why I wish them failure.
It has nothing to do with there fans, since after all, all you are is a means of finance for the team. Cheer them all you want, buy all the red stuff you can find, it's not my money...thank goodness. :D
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