| Rovah | 01-27-2002 09:15 AM |
Pat Richard DQ'd from Sno Drift!
Just read that Pat was DQ'd from Sno Drift for illegal Gr N gear ratios.
[url]http://rally.sandmansoftware.com/prorally2002/snodrift/snodrift4.html[/url]
It mentions this car is rented. Bummer! :-(
John
[url]http://rally.sandmansoftware.com/prorally2002/snodrift/snodrift4.html[/url]
It mentions this car is rented. Bummer! :-(
John
| johnfelstead | 01-27-2002 09:58 AM |
Damn, that really sucks for Pat. He is disputing the penalty though so maybe there is some screwup there???
The car was rented. I think this is the first run for that particular car in GroupN trim.
The car was rented. I think this is the first run for that particular car in GroupN trim.
| Jon Bogert | 01-27-2002 11:06 AM |
I'm not sure how many competitors or car prep shops actually have all the Group N rules. I've seen Group N cars with Plexi windows and Group N Imprezas with U.S. brakes. Everything's been pretty casual over here, since the scrutineers don't have a clue about what's homologated either.
| johnfelstead | 01-27-2002 01:14 PM |
Thing is Jon, if you are going to run FIA GroupN class you have to conform to the full rules for GroupN, there is no room for manouvere there. Quite simply you have to have the rules and you must comply with them. That goes to the scrutineers too! They have to have a copy of the Homologation papers and use those to the letter for any tech inspections.
I really feel for Pat, thats such a downer after such a brilliant drive. 4th overall in an open class car would have been superb, to do that in a groupN car with a GroupN restrictor is going some.
No doubt something has been cocked up in error, either the scrutineers have the wrong spec for the gearing or the gearbox ratios fitted were installed in error from a kit that was spec'd as groupN when it wasnt.
I really feel for Pat, thats such a downer after such a brilliant drive. 4th overall in an open class car would have been superb, to do that in a groupN car with a GroupN restrictor is going some.
No doubt something has been cocked up in error, either the scrutineers have the wrong spec for the gearing or the gearbox ratios fitted were installed in error from a kit that was spec'd as groupN when it wasnt.
| dwx | 01-27-2002 06:46 PM |
His gearbox and the other GrpN cars were being protested during from the beginning and I guess eventually it caught up with them. We did see a note that all of the Krolikowski protests were cleared?
| Dave_Clark | 01-27-2002 06:55 PM |
It's all BS, is what it is. It's a witch hunt.
Inept tech inspectors that don't know how to calculate gear ratios. The gearbox that was in the car Pat drove came out of a Group N car in Australia. It did the bloody Australian WRC rally, fer cryin' out loud! The gear ratios in the car Pat was driving are the exact same gear ratios as the car driven by the guy that protested him! Yet somehow the genius tech inspectors at the rally determined that they were not even close to any ratios that Subaru ever offered!
Add into the mix Kurt Spitzner (who's doing a simply marvellous job, BTW:rolleyes: ) is making up rules on the spot. There were perhaps 1 or 2 cars in Group N that were completely legal for Group N. There were several that were not even close. Yet Kurt gave them something called "local homologation." This is something that is not in the rulebook and nobody had ever heard of before. When Pete (the builder of the car Pat was renting) asked Kurt Spitzner about this "local homologation" and what were the requirements and procedures Kurt changed the subject and wouldn't answer. So apparently this "local homologation" rule is only available to some people and not to others.
Anyway, this is being discussed on the Special Stage Discussion Board so go look there. I posted a big thing there and I don't feel like repeating it all here.
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/htdocs/forum/DCForumID19/1548.shtml[/url]
It's such a shame some people's petty jealousy took away from a great drive by Pat. He drove a smart stategy, cruising the first night, then pouring it on for a few stages in the middle and then cruising to the end. He got locked in a tight battle with David Higgins, they were going back and forth until David center punched a tree trying to catch back up to Pat. Keep in mind Higgins was in Open class with 100+ more HP than Pat's car which had a stock WRX engine with a 32mm restrictor and a stock ECU.
Inept tech inspectors that don't know how to calculate gear ratios. The gearbox that was in the car Pat drove came out of a Group N car in Australia. It did the bloody Australian WRC rally, fer cryin' out loud! The gear ratios in the car Pat was driving are the exact same gear ratios as the car driven by the guy that protested him! Yet somehow the genius tech inspectors at the rally determined that they were not even close to any ratios that Subaru ever offered!
Add into the mix Kurt Spitzner (who's doing a simply marvellous job, BTW:rolleyes: ) is making up rules on the spot. There were perhaps 1 or 2 cars in Group N that were completely legal for Group N. There were several that were not even close. Yet Kurt gave them something called "local homologation." This is something that is not in the rulebook and nobody had ever heard of before. When Pete (the builder of the car Pat was renting) asked Kurt Spitzner about this "local homologation" and what were the requirements and procedures Kurt changed the subject and wouldn't answer. So apparently this "local homologation" rule is only available to some people and not to others.
Anyway, this is being discussed on the Special Stage Discussion Board so go look there. I posted a big thing there and I don't feel like repeating it all here.
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/htdocs/forum/DCForumID19/1548.shtml[/url]
It's such a shame some people's petty jealousy took away from a great drive by Pat. He drove a smart stategy, cruising the first night, then pouring it on for a few stages in the middle and then cruising to the end. He got locked in a tight battle with David Higgins, they were going back and forth until David center punched a tree trying to catch back up to Pat. Keep in mind Higgins was in Open class with 100+ more HP than Pat's car which had a stock WRX engine with a 32mm restrictor and a stock ECU.
| iceweazel | 01-27-2002 07:07 PM |
Facts: (before people run amok as usual around here)
Henry K. and Mark U. co-protested on both the "all cars to show papers for homologation" and the "pats got an illegal gearbox".
Initially this was due to one competitor NOT having their
homologation papers checked.
Fact:The reason they protested Pat was due to
insider information on Nat's car.
Fact: all entered GrpN cars DID finally have their papers confirmed.
Not that this is worth a damn.
Fact: Pat was Dq'ed. Reason was not elaborated.
Hearsay: "wrong gearbox/ratios for the cars year".
also TONS of people saying it was a VERY illegal
dog box with helical gears and a wicked close ratio.
It was not clear to me last night that they had cracked
it open, just counted wheel revs.
Fact: there were _several_ other Grp N cars that were NOT
up to current **USA** GrpN spec. (note that is NOT
entirely the same as FIA) In fact both the top 2 and the
bottom finisher were using illegal parts.
Only 2 of them were "performance enhancing". hehe
one was the lame-o US stock front brakes. ICK!
Fact: I was too damn convinced that the illegality of
the other cars wouldn't affect me (early on) and didn't
protest them. This cost me a minimum of 1 point and
a maximum of 3. This SUCKS!!! No more Mr. Nice Guy.
Fact: I got 5 different answers about how and when
I could protest mechanical. PRB members and the
new scrut. steward even disagreed. VERY VERY
annoying!
Fact: US Scrutineers wouldn't know a Non-GrpN part
if you dropped it on their heads. This is going to
get worse until they get some training.
Anyway, I just hope this doesn't devolve into the old
tyme "P" class protest wars. It always ended up
in the tech shed EVERY event much like SCCA road racing.
So the big question in my mind is: Did Pat know beforehand?
and if he did once the protest was up, why didn't he move
to open ASAP? Asking at the last moment isn't too useful.
Leads one to certain conclusions, doesn't it?
Pat drove Grp-N all last year. I'm sure he'd pick up on a
MUCH different box quickly. So who knows what the real
deal is.
BTW, regarding my teammate David Higgins, the
car ran like crap all weekend and Sat. had the stock
ECU back in after a long night where they ran out
of fuel on transit. :( He kept complaining about
no power on the radio all Sat. Until the tree bit him.
Ed
Henry K. and Mark U. co-protested on both the "all cars to show papers for homologation" and the "pats got an illegal gearbox".
Initially this was due to one competitor NOT having their
homologation papers checked.
Fact:The reason they protested Pat was due to
insider information on Nat's car.
Fact: all entered GrpN cars DID finally have their papers confirmed.
Not that this is worth a damn.
Fact: Pat was Dq'ed. Reason was not elaborated.
Hearsay: "wrong gearbox/ratios for the cars year".
also TONS of people saying it was a VERY illegal
dog box with helical gears and a wicked close ratio.
It was not clear to me last night that they had cracked
it open, just counted wheel revs.
Fact: there were _several_ other Grp N cars that were NOT
up to current **USA** GrpN spec. (note that is NOT
entirely the same as FIA) In fact both the top 2 and the
bottom finisher were using illegal parts.
Only 2 of them were "performance enhancing". hehe
one was the lame-o US stock front brakes. ICK!
Fact: I was too damn convinced that the illegality of
the other cars wouldn't affect me (early on) and didn't
protest them. This cost me a minimum of 1 point and
a maximum of 3. This SUCKS!!! No more Mr. Nice Guy.
Fact: I got 5 different answers about how and when
I could protest mechanical. PRB members and the
new scrut. steward even disagreed. VERY VERY
annoying!
Fact: US Scrutineers wouldn't know a Non-GrpN part
if you dropped it on their heads. This is going to
get worse until they get some training.
Anyway, I just hope this doesn't devolve into the old
tyme "P" class protest wars. It always ended up
in the tech shed EVERY event much like SCCA road racing.
So the big question in my mind is: Did Pat know beforehand?
and if he did once the protest was up, why didn't he move
to open ASAP? Asking at the last moment isn't too useful.
Leads one to certain conclusions, doesn't it?
Pat drove Grp-N all last year. I'm sure he'd pick up on a
MUCH different box quickly. So who knows what the real
deal is.
BTW, regarding my teammate David Higgins, the
car ran like crap all weekend and Sat. had the stock
ECU back in after a long night where they ran out
of fuel on transit. :( He kept complaining about
no power on the radio all Sat. Until the tree bit him.
Ed
| johnfelstead | 01-27-2002 07:43 PM |
Observation from affar guys.
You have one seriously screwed up tech system there if people are talking in the terms you guys are.
USA GroupN? what the hell is that? Manufacturers have to go through a Homologation process with the FIA and get papers written up that costs huge money and takes time. How can you have a GroupN class that doesnt conform to GroupN?
Local Homologation? What the hell is that too?
I take it the gearbox was based on the Type RA Dave? Homologation special low/close ratio box designed for GroupN purposes.
Gonna have a look at special stage, thanks for the link Dave.
Very depressing stuff indeed.
You have one seriously screwed up tech system there if people are talking in the terms you guys are.
USA GroupN? what the hell is that? Manufacturers have to go through a Homologation process with the FIA and get papers written up that costs huge money and takes time. How can you have a GroupN class that doesnt conform to GroupN?
Local Homologation? What the hell is that too?
I take it the gearbox was based on the Type RA Dave? Homologation special low/close ratio box designed for GroupN purposes.
Gonna have a look at special stage, thanks for the link Dave.
Very depressing stuff indeed.
| ANZAC_1915 | 01-27-2002 08:01 PM |
I have a picture of the outside of the gearbox if anyone is interested, from before it was installed.
From the outside it looks to me a STi Grp N box; and as Dave said, it came from an Australian car that ran the Telstra.
If the box turns out to be illegal, fair enough; and you have to have the paperwork to prove the legality of a homolgated part.
Pete, Nat (it is his car) and Pat are all good guys and there is no way they intended to cheat (if it even turns out the gearset is illegal, which I sorely doubt).
"If you can't drive fast enough, protest."
[quote]The reason they protested Pat was due to
insider information on Nat's car.[/quote]
What insider info?
Glenn
From the outside it looks to me a STi Grp N box; and as Dave said, it came from an Australian car that ran the Telstra.
If the box turns out to be illegal, fair enough; and you have to have the paperwork to prove the legality of a homolgated part.
Pete, Nat (it is his car) and Pat are all good guys and there is no way they intended to cheat (if it even turns out the gearset is illegal, which I sorely doubt).
"If you can't drive fast enough, protest."
[quote]The reason they protested Pat was due to
insider information on Nat's car.[/quote]
What insider info?
Glenn
| johnfelstead | 01-27-2002 08:01 PM |
Read the full text now.
Depressing reading for someone who wants to see the sport really take off over there. GroupN is a mess if cars are running to the various hybrid specs mentioned there.
Whats the process now for Pat re the protest? The guys at Cascade must be gutted too after spending all that time and money buying that kit.
Local Homologation? Someone needs a new ass tearing quite frankly. You have rules and you apply them to all. They have to be clear to all and the tech inspectors must have the ability to enforce them. No way can that DSQ stand if they cant even apply a set of solid rules or inspect a suspect component properly.
Sounds to me like you simply dont have a GroupN class there at all. How are these guys gonna run GroupN in an FIA WRC event with those cars? The FIA scrutineers will take one look and tell them to piss off.
Depressing reading for someone who wants to see the sport really take off over there. GroupN is a mess if cars are running to the various hybrid specs mentioned there.
Whats the process now for Pat re the protest? The guys at Cascade must be gutted too after spending all that time and money buying that kit.
Local Homologation? Someone needs a new ass tearing quite frankly. You have rules and you apply them to all. They have to be clear to all and the tech inspectors must have the ability to enforce them. No way can that DSQ stand if they cant even apply a set of solid rules or inspect a suspect component properly.
Sounds to me like you simply dont have a GroupN class there at all. How are these guys gonna run GroupN in an FIA WRC event with those cars? The FIA scrutineers will take one look and tell them to piss off.
| Jon Bogert | 01-27-2002 08:17 PM |
[QUOTE]Local Homologation? Someone needs a new ass tearing quite frankly. You have rules and you apply them to all. They have to be clear to all and the tech inspectors must have the ability to enforce them. [/QUOTE]
*sigh* :( Welcome to SCCA "Pro"Rally, where the one person who can make rules on a whim isn't bright enough to forsee the first order consequences, much less the second and third order ones.
*sigh* :( Welcome to SCCA "Pro"Rally, where the one person who can make rules on a whim isn't bright enough to forsee the first order consequences, much less the second and third order ones.
| Rattler | 01-28-2002 12:16 AM |
1 Attachment(s)
Iceweasel,
This must be yours I take?
This must be yours I take?
| mykrrrr | 01-28-2002 12:52 AM |
No, that's not the car Ed co-drove in. He had the white 99 Grp. N STi w/blue/red decals on it.
I'd post a pic but I-club says my Photoshop jpg pics aren't in the correct format!!! :mad:
-mykr.™
I'd post a pic but I-club says my Photoshop jpg pics aren't in the correct format!!! :mad:
-mykr.™
| iceweazel | 01-28-2002 04:27 AM |
No, that image is of Craig Peeper and Ian Bevin's GDx WRX.
They were being _crewed for_ by AV. (like Jason Rivas car as well)
Car 124 was myself and Pete Workum, in a White WRX GC8 body.
Despite what Dave thinks, it was the one with the proper Sti roof vent, and without the aftermarket popoff valve. :D
And John is correct. I've rallied in Japan and Europe and the tech inspection here and the entire protest setup is a mess. Someone needs to clean it up. It's almost a complete joke here.
But the number of cars is SOO much lower here its almost not
a surprise. Growing pains are to be expected but we need
to overcome them.
I don't honestly know anything about "special rules" for
the team, being late to it. But with Kurt, all things are possible. :mad: I'm still angry he lied to me twice the other night about the darn rulebooks.
For those that were not there, Fri night about 80% of
the competitors were given a 5 MINUTE road penalty
for speeding in a Quiet Zone 25mph on a transit. They
were later removed. (read: politics)
It would have completely rearranged the standings.
I don't recall if Pat had one, but all 3 Prodrive members had
it. Utecht and Krowlikowsky did not. One more example
of not sticking to the rules :(
Ed
They were being _crewed for_ by AV. (like Jason Rivas car as well)
Car 124 was myself and Pete Workum, in a White WRX GC8 body.
Despite what Dave thinks, it was the one with the proper Sti roof vent, and without the aftermarket popoff valve. :D
And John is correct. I've rallied in Japan and Europe and the tech inspection here and the entire protest setup is a mess. Someone needs to clean it up. It's almost a complete joke here.
But the number of cars is SOO much lower here its almost not
a surprise. Growing pains are to be expected but we need
to overcome them.
I don't honestly know anything about "special rules" for
the team, being late to it. But with Kurt, all things are possible. :mad: I'm still angry he lied to me twice the other night about the darn rulebooks.
For those that were not there, Fri night about 80% of
the competitors were given a 5 MINUTE road penalty
for speeding in a Quiet Zone 25mph on a transit. They
were later removed. (read: politics)
It would have completely rearranged the standings.
I don't recall if Pat had one, but all 3 Prodrive members had
it. Utecht and Krowlikowsky did not. One more example
of not sticking to the rules :(
Ed
| Subie Gal | 01-28-2002 06:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]"If you can't drive fast enough, protest."
[/B][/QUOTE]
amen Glenn!
I hope patrick and peter are appealing...
this is bunk if you know what i mean....
SCCA politics... gotta love em. Sounds like this should have been taken care of at scrutineering... Sounds like someone just bided their time... Sounds contrived.... Sounds plotted.... and stinks to high heaven...! :mad:
Patrick, if you're out there... congrats on a great run man!
You kick arse and you're still my hero! ;)
Jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
[B]"If you can't drive fast enough, protest."
[/B][/QUOTE]
amen Glenn!
I hope patrick and peter are appealing...
this is bunk if you know what i mean....
SCCA politics... gotta love em. Sounds like this should have been taken care of at scrutineering... Sounds like someone just bided their time... Sounds contrived.... Sounds plotted.... and stinks to high heaven...! :mad:
Patrick, if you're out there... congrats on a great run man!
You kick arse and you're still my hero! ;)
Jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 01-28-2002 10:04 AM |
Ok, wait a minute Jamie: the issue here is arbitrary rules enforcement--not an "ambush protest". If Pat has an illegal gearbox, exclude him! If the AV Sport guys aren't following the evolution requirements completely, exclude them too! If Mark and Henry are the only two group N cars who have got it together, then they have every right to protest the Group N cars that don't.
If you get protested for Group N, you run in Open--it's not like you're excluded from the rally or something. If you want to mix and match parts for performance (or for convenience and to save money, like most of us), Open class is where you belong.
If the big K really did grant an arbitrary exemption to the AV Sport guys, that's a big miscalculation. Straw that broke the camels back big, hopefully. :mad:
If you get protested for Group N, you run in Open--it's not like you're excluded from the rally or something. If you want to mix and match parts for performance (or for convenience and to save money, like most of us), Open class is where you belong.
If the big K really did grant an arbitrary exemption to the AV Sport guys, that's a big miscalculation. Straw that broke the camels back big, hopefully. :mad:
| dwx | 01-28-2002 10:25 AM |
This is the car Ed (iceweazel) was in. Hey look at that roof vent! Anyways, it's growing pains that the sport will have to go through in the US. Let's just hope there aren't so many of them that it makes it no fun for the competitors or fans.
| Subie Gal | 01-28-2002 10:41 AM |
[quote]Ok, wait a minute Jamie: the issue here is arbitrary rules enforcement--not an "ambush protest". If Pat has an illegal gearbox, exclude him! If the AV Sport guys aren't following the evolution requirements completely, exclude them too! If Mark and Henry are the only two group N cars who have got it together, then they have every right to protest the Group N cars that don't. [/quote]
you are 150% right Jon! i do agree with that!
but why dq Pat? why didnt they just bump him into Open?
:confused:
and why are the AV guys getting this "local homologation?" What the 'ell is it anyway? favoritism? or did we miss something.
sorry. Pat is a really good friend of mine and this whole thing stinks...
i dont blame them for protesting him, no way!
i just dont like the scent of the other BS that's going on.
J.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
you are 150% right Jon! i do agree with that!
but why dq Pat? why didnt they just bump him into Open?
:confused:
and why are the AV guys getting this "local homologation?" What the 'ell is it anyway? favoritism? or did we miss something.
sorry. Pat is a really good friend of mine and this whole thing stinks...
i dont blame them for protesting him, no way!
i just dont like the scent of the other BS that's going on.
J.
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| Jon Bogert | 01-28-2002 11:16 AM |
My mistake--the rules state that an illegal Group N car can be bumped into Open if it is found to not be in compliance before the first time control.
If it's found not to be compliant later (or at impound) the car can be excluded from the event "at the discretion of the event steward".
Bummer.
If it's found not to be compliant later (or at impound) the car can be excluded from the event "at the discretion of the event steward".
Bummer.
| Petrie | 01-28-2002 11:59 AM |
Does any know what happens to the appeal that seems to have been made about Pat's DQ?
Was the car impounded by the officials so that the gears can be properly checked? What's the timeframe for sorting this out?
Was the car impounded by the officials so that the gears can be properly checked? What's the timeframe for sorting this out?
| jmullan | 01-28-2002 03:21 PM |
Are dog boxes legal in Group N for that particular Impreza?
| PURE EPI | 01-28-2002 07:28 PM |
this is fukking ridiculous........:mad:
| RalliSpec | 01-28-2002 08:17 PM |
First I'd like to extend congrats to Mark Utecht on an excellent job. The car he is running was originally built by RalliSpec for the previous owner as a Production GT car.
With regards to the controversy over Pat's and others cars...I think the intention behind the protests was to make sure that the basic elements of Group N were being adhered to. The basics being: proper turbo restrictor, proper gear ratios, and proper paperwork. I think its plainly obvious that few, if any, competitors are completely legal in Group N. Protests could easily have been lodged against all Group N competitors.
But seriously, FIA rules are new to US rallying so its going to take some time to fully implement them. Not even the scrutineers are fully aware of the rules. I think protests may be the only way to help educate everyone to the rules. We run our car in Open class right now and we went to great lengths to design and fabricate a restrictor to meet the rules...but nobody checked for the restrictor last year and I personally know of a number of competitors running without it. You think we aren't a little pissed off knowing that we are running at a disadvantage? A level playing field is important and I hope that SCCA gets its act together and starts enforcing the rules across all the classes and without bias.
As for the actual requirements for Group N...Subaru initially homologated the European version of the New Age WRX. Subsequent "variant option" addendums were added to include the STi EJ207 motor, 6 speed gearbox, Brembo brakes, LSD's, etc as found on the STi models. There is no USA homologation...the FIA does not distinguish between countries as far as I know. The car that was homologated has 4-pot/2-pot brakes and alloy control arms...what US model has these as standard anyway? As for this "local homologation"...even if such a thing exists, it seems to me that only an ASN would have this authority and the SCCA is not the ASN here in the US so it is not possible Spitzner could make this decision on the spot.
Now if Pat's gearbox ratios really are correct then I absolutely think he should appeal. Its only the ratios that are important. The interior of the gearbox is "free" according to the rules meaning that gearchange type, gear profile, etc. are all unlimited. But the ratio's homologated with the FIA must be adhered to and any LSD must be homologated as well. I don't know what model Pat was running for SnoDrift but in the case of the new WRX with 5 speeds...only the following ratios are allowed: 3.454 (1st), 1.947 (2nd), 1.366 (3rd), 0.972(4th), 0.738 (5th). Final drive can be either 3.900 or 4.444 (as to 05/05 VO). The GC8 models had several different ratios homologated over the years but they are applicable only the GC8 because the new WRX is a completely new homologation.
We are in the process of building a Group N WRX for later in the season...we will be spending a lot of hard earned money to do so. Believe me we won't hesitate to protest a car if it really doesn't meet the rules.
--Dave
RalliSpec
With regards to the controversy over Pat's and others cars...I think the intention behind the protests was to make sure that the basic elements of Group N were being adhered to. The basics being: proper turbo restrictor, proper gear ratios, and proper paperwork. I think its plainly obvious that few, if any, competitors are completely legal in Group N. Protests could easily have been lodged against all Group N competitors.
But seriously, FIA rules are new to US rallying so its going to take some time to fully implement them. Not even the scrutineers are fully aware of the rules. I think protests may be the only way to help educate everyone to the rules. We run our car in Open class right now and we went to great lengths to design and fabricate a restrictor to meet the rules...but nobody checked for the restrictor last year and I personally know of a number of competitors running without it. You think we aren't a little pissed off knowing that we are running at a disadvantage? A level playing field is important and I hope that SCCA gets its act together and starts enforcing the rules across all the classes and without bias.
As for the actual requirements for Group N...Subaru initially homologated the European version of the New Age WRX. Subsequent "variant option" addendums were added to include the STi EJ207 motor, 6 speed gearbox, Brembo brakes, LSD's, etc as found on the STi models. There is no USA homologation...the FIA does not distinguish between countries as far as I know. The car that was homologated has 4-pot/2-pot brakes and alloy control arms...what US model has these as standard anyway? As for this "local homologation"...even if such a thing exists, it seems to me that only an ASN would have this authority and the SCCA is not the ASN here in the US so it is not possible Spitzner could make this decision on the spot.
Now if Pat's gearbox ratios really are correct then I absolutely think he should appeal. Its only the ratios that are important. The interior of the gearbox is "free" according to the rules meaning that gearchange type, gear profile, etc. are all unlimited. But the ratio's homologated with the FIA must be adhered to and any LSD must be homologated as well. I don't know what model Pat was running for SnoDrift but in the case of the new WRX with 5 speeds...only the following ratios are allowed: 3.454 (1st), 1.947 (2nd), 1.366 (3rd), 0.972(4th), 0.738 (5th). Final drive can be either 3.900 or 4.444 (as to 05/05 VO). The GC8 models had several different ratios homologated over the years but they are applicable only the GC8 because the new WRX is a completely new homologation.
We are in the process of building a Group N WRX for later in the season...we will be spending a lot of hard earned money to do so. Believe me we won't hesitate to protest a car if it really doesn't meet the rules.
--Dave
RalliSpec
| johnfelstead | 01-28-2002 09:43 PM |
[QUOTE]But seriously, FIA rules are new to US rallying so its going to take some time to fully implement them. Not even the scrutineers are fully aware of the rules. I think protests may be the only way to help educate everyone to the rules. [/QUOTE]
Sorry but this simply isnt good enough and going about your business in this manner is incredibly bad for the sport.
It's too late in the process to protest a car and have to fight a battle with scrutineers who dont understand the rules. $1000's are being spent to compete and it's important that the sponsors who pay this money see there team as being above board. It's damaging to a driver to be seen as running illegal, even if that is on a technicality that was inocent or unfounded.
I have been running Homologated cars for 5 years in GroupA, i have had one exclusion from an event due to a tech infringment. This was a genuine mistake by my team where we had a safety fuel cell that just expired it's date stamp. This was picked up in pre event tech inspection and we were not allowed to run because we didnt meet the rules. We didnt like it because we had to explain this to our sponsors but at least we didnt waste 2 days and $1000's running in an event for nothing. We did accept it though because it was a decision taken by scrutineers who stuck to the rules and enforced them for all.
No disrespect but your tech inspection system is a farce, if you have cars that dont comply either exclude them all or bump them all into a class that they do comply with untill they meet the letter of the rules layed down in writing. If you dont do that your series has no value as a competitive, equal playing field sport, growing pains or not.
Would i be prepaired to build and run a car in GroupN in ProRally after this fiasco? Absolutely not. Something needs sorting and quickly with this series. Excluding Pat was probably the worst thing they could have done for the sports profile outside the USA for those in the know who are looking at ProRally as a posible arena to compete in.
I dont know Pat apart from what i have seen from his drives to date so i have no allegence to him. I just find this afair to be incredibly depresing after supporting the aim as i saw it of the SCCA trying to go GroupN/GroupA and bringing the US upto the level of the rest of the world.
It's no way to run and promote a rally championship with any credibility. You must have rules that are concrete and they must be enforced. You cant allow some specs to be OK and some not, that just looks like favouritism, even if it isnt intended that way.
You basically have Group N(udge and a wink) which is no way to go about gaining competitors, sponsors or credibility.
Sorry but this simply isnt good enough and going about your business in this manner is incredibly bad for the sport.
It's too late in the process to protest a car and have to fight a battle with scrutineers who dont understand the rules. $1000's are being spent to compete and it's important that the sponsors who pay this money see there team as being above board. It's damaging to a driver to be seen as running illegal, even if that is on a technicality that was inocent or unfounded.
I have been running Homologated cars for 5 years in GroupA, i have had one exclusion from an event due to a tech infringment. This was a genuine mistake by my team where we had a safety fuel cell that just expired it's date stamp. This was picked up in pre event tech inspection and we were not allowed to run because we didnt meet the rules. We didnt like it because we had to explain this to our sponsors but at least we didnt waste 2 days and $1000's running in an event for nothing. We did accept it though because it was a decision taken by scrutineers who stuck to the rules and enforced them for all.
No disrespect but your tech inspection system is a farce, if you have cars that dont comply either exclude them all or bump them all into a class that they do comply with untill they meet the letter of the rules layed down in writing. If you dont do that your series has no value as a competitive, equal playing field sport, growing pains or not.
Would i be prepaired to build and run a car in GroupN in ProRally after this fiasco? Absolutely not. Something needs sorting and quickly with this series. Excluding Pat was probably the worst thing they could have done for the sports profile outside the USA for those in the know who are looking at ProRally as a posible arena to compete in.
I dont know Pat apart from what i have seen from his drives to date so i have no allegence to him. I just find this afair to be incredibly depresing after supporting the aim as i saw it of the SCCA trying to go GroupN/GroupA and bringing the US upto the level of the rest of the world.
It's no way to run and promote a rally championship with any credibility. You must have rules that are concrete and they must be enforced. You cant allow some specs to be OK and some not, that just looks like favouritism, even if it isnt intended that way.
You basically have Group N(udge and a wink) which is no way to go about gaining competitors, sponsors or credibility.
| slidewaysmike | 01-29-2002 01:21 AM |
I know for a fact that it was the ratios that were in question, not the actual gearbox. Utecht and/or Cindy K. may have protested the "gearbox" but they were straightened out by the officials before the event ended. I was right there when they were being advised that it is the ratios that are set, and not the rest of the gearbox itself. So from that standpoint we know that at least one of the officials knows a little something about Group N requirements. That was at one of the afternoon services. I don't know the method used to ascertain the legality of his ratios, but they were both perfectly within their rights to protest if they thought there was a problem. Nobody can argue that.
What I'm wondering is how did they know to protest his gearbox before the event? I was under the impression that they protested every Group N car, and specifically Richards gearbox. Maybe my info is wrong, but isn't that what happened? If so, how did they know about his gearbox?
And I also feel the same as johnfelstead about the rules applying to everyone, and every part of the car in a certain class. Just wanted to let everyone know.
Mike
What I'm wondering is how did they know to protest his gearbox before the event? I was under the impression that they protested every Group N car, and specifically Richards gearbox. Maybe my info is wrong, but isn't that what happened? If so, how did they know about his gearbox?
And I also feel the same as johnfelstead about the rules applying to everyone, and every part of the car in a certain class. Just wanted to let everyone know.
Mike
| Petrie | 01-29-2002 01:25 AM |
Well said John. The sport has to be run to exacting standards, and not made up on the day. If cars do not meet their intended class, bump them to the next class before the rally starts and let them run. It's then the competitors choice for the next event, fix it or run in the higher class next time. I'm hoping that the governing body have enough balls to do the right thing and sort this out.
| rsquire | 01-29-2002 01:50 AM |
Aahh
nothing Like a good protest to win an event :D
As Citroen found out ;) :D
nothing Like a good protest to win an event :D
As Citroen found out ;) :D
| dwx | 01-29-2002 08:16 AM |
The next prorally isn't for almost 2 months and I'm hoping for their sake that the SCCA can set some hard and fast rules as far as GrpN is concerned. They already exist for the rest of the world, but if they allow "local homologation" in cases of using the 6spd STi gearbox or whatever, then everyone needs to know about it and be able to utilize it. Well in advance. Cherokee Trails is one of the FIA attended events so they better have their stuff together by then. I agree with John in that it does the sport no good to be so disorganized about these things from the get-go, but on the other hand it brings to light problems and hopefully resolutions.
| Jon Bogert | 01-29-2002 09:47 AM |
Just to clarify, the original intent of "local homologation" was to allow teams that were [i]below[/i] the Group N spec to compete. That is, a lower budget team could run U.S. spec (inferior) parts--such as 2-pot front brakes--and not be excluded from Group N. Makes sense, as it gives no competitive advantage over a real Group N car and helps build the class.
I'm not sure how that translates into "go ahead and run a 6-speed in a WRX" and "you can vent your BOV to atmosphere 'cause it sounds cool" however???
dwx, you're absolutely right, the PRB should make some unambiguous rules that even the most myopic tech inspector can understand about what is or is not legal on a Group N Impreza or EVO. But, I believe that the SCCA autocracy prefers to be able to change rules on a whim, to suit marketing or political priorities right now. We'll see...
Edit: OK, it seems the BOV was legit, but that doesn't change the issue one bit! :p
I'm not sure how that translates into "go ahead and run a 6-speed in a WRX" and "you can vent your BOV to atmosphere 'cause it sounds cool" however???
dwx, you're absolutely right, the PRB should make some unambiguous rules that even the most myopic tech inspector can understand about what is or is not legal on a Group N Impreza or EVO. But, I believe that the SCCA autocracy prefers to be able to change rules on a whim, to suit marketing or political priorities right now. We'll see...
Edit: OK, it seems the BOV was legit, but that doesn't change the issue one bit! :p
| iceweazel | 01-29-2002 01:11 PM |
slidewaysmike: There were 2 seperate grpN protests on the
Official Notice board before the event began.
One was for all Grp-N cars NOT showing their homologation
papers.
The other was specifically against Pat's gearbox. Rumor is
that they had "insider information" that it was illegal from
Nat T-Stow. What this means, I have no idea. But that
was up before registration was over Friday so they did
know in advance for sure.
The "localized" homologation was apparently known to
a great many of the folks that contacted Subaru-US and
SCCA for homologation information I've been told.
Yes, it was to allow the US-Spec brakes, smaller rotors
and other parts (we got cheaped on here) to compete.
And yes, several of the compeitors still had the crappy
2 pot/1 pot US setup.
Dave from rallispec, you know the car correct?
I'm holding my tongue on that one for now.
Ed
Official Notice board before the event began.
One was for all Grp-N cars NOT showing their homologation
papers.
The other was specifically against Pat's gearbox. Rumor is
that they had "insider information" that it was illegal from
Nat T-Stow. What this means, I have no idea. But that
was up before registration was over Friday so they did
know in advance for sure.
The "localized" homologation was apparently known to
a great many of the folks that contacted Subaru-US and
SCCA for homologation information I've been told.
Yes, it was to allow the US-Spec brakes, smaller rotors
and other parts (we got cheaped on here) to compete.
And yes, several of the compeitors still had the crappy
2 pot/1 pot US setup.
Dave from rallispec, you know the car correct?
I'm holding my tongue on that one for now.
Ed
| ANZAC_1915 | 01-29-2002 01:40 PM |
[quote]The other was specifically against Pat's gearbox. Rumor is
that they had "insider information" that it was illegal from
Nat T-Stow. [/quote]
I find this rumor unlikely. Nat bought the box as he is moving his car to Group N for this year. He rented the car to Pat.
He'd be silly to claim it was illegal, he'd be shooting himself in the foot.
Glenn
that they had "insider information" that it was illegal from
Nat T-Stow. [/quote]
I find this rumor unlikely. Nat bought the box as he is moving his car to Group N for this year. He rented the car to Pat.
He'd be silly to claim it was illegal, he'd be shooting himself in the foot.
Glenn
| CraigPeeper | 01-29-2002 04:15 PM |
[QUOTE]I'm not sure how that translates into "go ahead and run a 6-speed in a WRX" and "you can vent your BOV to atmosphere 'cause it sounds cool" however??? [/QUOTE]
This is the second time I have heard that I am running an atmospheric blow off valve. I must be deaf, because I haven't heard any of the Group N cars at SnoDrift with one. Where is this hearsay coming from?
Craig Peeper
SlingShotRally.com
This is the second time I have heard that I am running an atmospheric blow off valve. I must be deaf, because I haven't heard any of the Group N cars at SnoDrift with one. Where is this hearsay coming from?
Craig Peeper
SlingShotRally.com
| Jon Bogert | 01-29-2002 04:26 PM |
So Craig, put it to rest then: what non-homologated parts does your car have on it?
Welcome to the i-Club, btw. :)
Welcome to the i-Club, btw. :)
| CraigPeeper | 01-29-2002 04:31 PM |
All parts on the car are homologated for the current body shape.
Craig Peeper
SlingShotRally.com
Craig Peeper
SlingShotRally.com
| Subie Gal | 01-29-2002 04:36 PM |
wow Craig! welcome!
please keep this converstion going and keep it constructive.
i'm learning more by listening to you guys....
still dont understand local homologation...?
who qualifies? and who does not?
so you can still run GP N w/out having the car be 100% GP N?
but only if you have local homologation?
:confused:
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
please keep this converstion going and keep it constructive.
i'm learning more by listening to you guys....
still dont understand local homologation...?
who qualifies? and who does not?
so you can still run GP N w/out having the car be 100% GP N?
but only if you have local homologation?
:confused:
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
| CraigPeeper | 01-29-2002 05:25 PM |
[QUOTE]
still dont understand local homologation...?
who qualifies? and who does not?
so you can still run GP N w/out having the car be 100% GP N?
but only if you have local homologation?
[/QUOTE]
AFAIK, Local homologation is a method for manufacturers to work with the fact that a WRX in one country is not the same as one sold in another country. I don't understand the specifics of what is allowed or disallowed when something is "locally" homologated. The main disadvantage to local homologation is that those cars are not legal for international events. i.e. Rally Mexico.
It isn't so that cars are not 100% Gp N, but that they are 100% Gp N once the local homologation is taken into consideration.
I.E. The brakes on the US WRX are not homologated, so they either need to be locally homologated to be legal OR there needs to be a section specifiying that a US WRX must/can run the STI brakes that are homologated.
This is where things get tricky. Just because a part is homologated doesn't mean it is legal to put on a particular car. It must be homologated for that car. I believe this is what tripped Pat up. i.e. running an STI 6 set of gear ratios with a 2002 body style, but I DON'T know if that even was the problem. If someone did have that then it wouldn't be legal UNLESS that set of ratios is mentioned in the 2002s homologation paper. I haven't investigated the set of allowed ratios for the 2002 yet to even know what is or isn't allowed.
Usually it is more straightforward then this. It is supposed to be a call similar to Production where the car can be run as is with Variants allowed by the manufacturer. The problem is that our cars do not match the base configuration that was homologated, which I am told is why local homologation for the WRX here is necessary.
Craig Peeper
SlingShotRally.com
still dont understand local homologation...?
who qualifies? and who does not?
so you can still run GP N w/out having the car be 100% GP N?
but only if you have local homologation?
[/QUOTE]
AFAIK, Local homologation is a method for manufacturers to work with the fact that a WRX in one country is not the same as one sold in another country. I don't understand the specifics of what is allowed or disallowed when something is "locally" homologated. The main disadvantage to local homologation is that those cars are not legal for international events. i.e. Rally Mexico.
It isn't so that cars are not 100% Gp N, but that they are 100% Gp N once the local homologation is taken into consideration.
I.E. The brakes on the US WRX are not homologated, so they either need to be locally homologated to be legal OR there needs to be a section specifiying that a US WRX must/can run the STI brakes that are homologated.
This is where things get tricky. Just because a part is homologated doesn't mean it is legal to put on a particular car. It must be homologated for that car. I believe this is what tripped Pat up. i.e. running an STI 6 set of gear ratios with a 2002 body style, but I DON'T know if that even was the problem. If someone did have that then it wouldn't be legal UNLESS that set of ratios is mentioned in the 2002s homologation paper. I haven't investigated the set of allowed ratios for the 2002 yet to even know what is or isn't allowed.
Usually it is more straightforward then this. It is supposed to be a call similar to Production where the car can be run as is with Variants allowed by the manufacturer. The problem is that our cars do not match the base configuration that was homologated, which I am told is why local homologation for the WRX here is necessary.
Craig Peeper
SlingShotRally.com
| RalliSpec | 01-29-2002 06:51 PM |
There is only one set of gearbox ratios currently allowed for GD (2002) Impreza and they are the same as what is used on the US spec. WRX. I posted those previously. There are 2 final drive ratios allowed though.
As for how they knew to protest Pat's gearbox ratios...it was the result of some inside information from what I understand. But it could very well have been the result of an innocent conversation. Maybe the owner let slip some info about the gearset thinking that it was fully legal when maybe it wasn't.
I am not saying that protesting the competition is something that should be taken lightly. However, if the rules are not being adhered to by a competitor and the scrutineers aren't doing a damn thing about it either due to ignorance or some other reason...and the illegal competitor gains a serious advantage as a result. Why not protest him? That's why that option is available to the competitors. What about the $1000's of dollars spent by the "legal" competitors? You think don't think they and their sponsors aren't going to feel slighted when they get beaten by two or three "illegal" competitors. Aren't they going to wonder if maybe they could have won if the playing field was level?
We've done enough work on some of the cars out there and talked with enough competitors to know that a not insignificant portion of people are running illegally in their class intentionally because they know the rules are not being enforced. And a good percentage of the remainder are running illegally simply because they don't know the rules. As far as this particular situation is concerned I don't believe it was wise to lodge protests when the protesters themselves were not fully compliant with the rules. And I don't believe DQ-ing Pat was the correct way to take care of the problem. But at the same time I think its good that these protests have brought attention to the issues. Hopefully they will get corrected as a result.
What about Randy Zimmer at last year's Cherokee Trails? Hell that was only Club and the reasons for protest, although legitimate, were pretty lame. I would have handled it by taking him aside and pointing out his infractions and telling him to get it taken care of by the next event. Instead he got bumped to Open class and cost us our class win on the 2nd day (because he's so damn good!).
As for how they knew to protest Pat's gearbox ratios...it was the result of some inside information from what I understand. But it could very well have been the result of an innocent conversation. Maybe the owner let slip some info about the gearset thinking that it was fully legal when maybe it wasn't.
I am not saying that protesting the competition is something that should be taken lightly. However, if the rules are not being adhered to by a competitor and the scrutineers aren't doing a damn thing about it either due to ignorance or some other reason...and the illegal competitor gains a serious advantage as a result. Why not protest him? That's why that option is available to the competitors. What about the $1000's of dollars spent by the "legal" competitors? You think don't think they and their sponsors aren't going to feel slighted when they get beaten by two or three "illegal" competitors. Aren't they going to wonder if maybe they could have won if the playing field was level?
We've done enough work on some of the cars out there and talked with enough competitors to know that a not insignificant portion of people are running illegally in their class intentionally because they know the rules are not being enforced. And a good percentage of the remainder are running illegally simply because they don't know the rules. As far as this particular situation is concerned I don't believe it was wise to lodge protests when the protesters themselves were not fully compliant with the rules. And I don't believe DQ-ing Pat was the correct way to take care of the problem. But at the same time I think its good that these protests have brought attention to the issues. Hopefully they will get corrected as a result.
What about Randy Zimmer at last year's Cherokee Trails? Hell that was only Club and the reasons for protest, although legitimate, were pretty lame. I would have handled it by taking him aside and pointing out his infractions and telling him to get it taken care of by the next event. Instead he got bumped to Open class and cost us our class win on the 2nd day (because he's so damn good!).
| Subie Gal | 01-29-2002 07:11 PM |
[quote]he got bumped to Open class ...[/quote]
why didnt they just do that with Patrick?
:confused:
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
why didnt they just do that with Patrick?
:confused:
jamie
[url]www.subiegal.com[/url]
[url]www.subiegalracing.com[/url]
| johnfelstead | 01-29-2002 07:45 PM |
Hi Craig, welcome.
Below are the FIA rules for running a Homologated GroupN car. All down in writting for all to see. I would like to see a copy of the local homologation papers in writing so they can be matched to the FIA papers. Without them in writing you have no way to tech inspect.
The FIA reference specific Homologation papers drawn up for each particular model. The available Homologated vehicles are....
N 5621 SUBARU IMPREZA SEDAN 2.0 4WD TURBO, GD 01.12.2000 2007+
N 5575 SUB FOR 2.0 4WD T SF 1994.4x1.7=3390.5cc 01.01.1998 2006+
N 5480 SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GC8 1994.4x1.7=3390.5 01.04.1993 2006+
each of these homologated vehicles has amendmants to the model homologated. For example the N5480 has the following amendments. There are multiple versions of the transmision homologated and multiple ratio's. Without the scrutineers having all the relevent papers to hand there is no way they can enforce the rules.
N 5480 SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GC8 1994.4x1.7=3390.5 Début d'homologation : 01.04.1993 Fin : 2006+
01.07.1993 1/1 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
LISTE DES HOMOLOGATIONS
HOMOLOGATIONS LIST
E_Voit_All.rtf - Dernière impression le 23/01/02 16:58 85 / 113
01.07.1993 2/1 VF MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.04.1994 3/2 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.04.1994 4/2 VF MOTEUR / ENGINE
RAPPORT DE PONT / FINAL DRIVE RATIO
01.10.1994 5/3 VF ROUE / WHEEL
01.03.1995 6/3 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
01.04.1995 7/4 VO RAPPORT DE PONT / FINAL DRIVE RATIO
01.01.1996 8/1 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.01.1996 9/2 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.12.1996 10/5 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
MOTEUR / ENGINE
TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
DIRECTION / STEERING
01.01.1997 11/6 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
FREIN / BRAKE
01.03.1997 12/7 VO DIMENSION / DIMENSION
TRAIN ROULANT / RUNNING GEAR
01.03.1997 13/8 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.07.1997 14/9 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
01.07.1997 15/10 VO SUSPENSION / SUSPENSION
COMPLEMENT D'INFORMATION / ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
01.08.1997 16/11 VO FREIN / BRAKE
01.08.1997 17/3 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.01.1998 18/12 VO FREIN / BRAKE
TABLEAU DE BORD / DASHBOARD
01.04.1998 19/4 VF FREIN / BRAKE
01.04.1998 20/13 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.07.1998 21/4 ER TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
01.07.1998 22/14 VO RAPPORT DE PONT / FINAL DRIVE RATIO
01.09.1998 23/5 ER FREIN / BRAKE
01.01.1999 24/15 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
01.01.1999 25/16 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
FREIN / BRAKE
01.04.1999 26/6 ER
01.05.1999 27/7 ER
01.07.1999 28/17 VO
01.07.2000 29/18 VO DISPOSITIFS AERODYNAMIQUES / AERODYNAMIC DEVICES
01.01.2001 30/19 VO BOITE DE VITESSES / GEARBOX
01.03.2001 31/8 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.04.2001 32/20 VO TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
01.10.2001 33/21 VO TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
Art. 254 - Specific Regulations for Production Cars (Group N)
ARTICLE 1 : DEFINITION
Large scale series production touring cars.
ARTICLE 2 : HOMOLOGATION
At least 2500 identical units must have been produced in 12
consecutive months and homologated by the FIA in Touring
Cars (Group A).
The Supply Variants (VF) homologated in Touring Cars
(Group A) are also valid in Production Cars (Group N).
All Production Variants (VP) are valid in Production Cars
(Group N).
Option Variants (VO) of the Touring Cars (Group A) form shall
not be valid in Production Cars (Group N), unless they refer to:
- engine flywheel of the same diameter and the same weight as
the original, if and only if this original flywheel is made up of two
parts.
- fly-wheel for automatic gearboxes ;
- fuel tank ;
- automatic gearboxes ;
- sun roof ;
- safety rollcage ;
- seat supports and anchorages;
- safety harness mounting points;
- 2/4 doors versions.
The specific Option-Variants (VO) for Group N may be used.
Super Production Option Variants (SP) shall not be valid in
Production Cars (Group N).
The use of tanks homologated in VO on the Touring Car
(Group A) form must be carried out under the conditions laid
down in article 5.9.2 of the Touring Car (Group A) regulations,
and article 254.6.8.
Evolutions of the type (ET), kit variants (VK) or sporting
evolutions (ES) homologated in Touring Cars (Group A) are not
valid in production Cars (Group N).
Nevertheless, evolutions of the type and the sporting evolutions
homologated, as from 01.01.97 in Group A, are valid in Group
N.
ARTICLE 3 : NUMBER OF SEATS
Cars must have at least four places, in accordance with the
dimensions defined for Touring Cars (Group A).
ARTICLE 4 : MODIFICATIONS AND ADJUNCTIONS
ALLOWED OR OBLIGATORY
All the modifications which are not allowed by the present
regulations are expressly forbidden.
The only work which may be carried out on the car is that
necessary for its normal servicing, or for the replacements of
parts worn through use or accident.
The limits of the modifications and fittings allowed are specified
hereinafter.
Apart from these, any part worn through use or accident can
only be replaced by an original part identical to the damaged
one.
The cars must be strictly series production models identifiable
by the homologation form data.
ARTICLE 5 : MINIMUM WEIGHT
Cars must have at least the weight appearing on the
homologation form plus the weight of the safety devices
As far as rollcages which cannot be removed from the car and
which were manufactured in accordance with articles 253.8.2
and 8.3 of Appendix J are concerned, the following weights will
be taken as a basis:
- Rollcage according to drawings 253-3/4: 30 kg
- Rollcage according to drawings 253-5 to 17C: 35 kg
This is the real weight of the empty car (without persons or
luggage aboard) without tools, jack.
All the liquid tanks (lubrication, cooling, braking, heating where
applicable) must be at the normal level foreseen by the
manufacturer, with the exception of the windscreen wiper or
headlight wiper, brake cooling system, fuel and water injection
tanks, which shall be empty.
Additional headlights which do not appear on the homologation
form must be removed before weighing.
ARTICLE 6 :
6.1 Engine
- Engine shields made of plastic material, the purpose of which
is to hide mechanical components in the engine compartment,
may be removed if they have a solely aesthetic function.
- The accelerator cable may be replaced or doubled by another
one regardless of whether it comes from the manufacturer or
not.
If the series vehicle is fitted with a motorised throttle valve, a
throttle kit with a mechanical linkage, homologated in Group N,
may be used.
- The screws and bolts may be changed, provided that the
replacements are made from ferrous material.
- Ignition: The make and type of the spark plugs, rev. limiter and
high-tension leads are free.
The electronic control unit and the ignition components in the
electronic control unit are free, nevertheless the system must be
entirely interchangeable with the original unit (i.e. the engine
must work when the unit is replaced with the series unit).
Sensors and actuators on the input side must be standard, as
must their function.
No sensor may be added, even for the purpose of data
recording.
In the case of a model fitted with a multiplexed electric
circuit, the use of a loom together with an electronic control
unit homologated in Option Variant is permitted.
- Any data recording system is forbidden unless fitted on the
homologated vehicle.
- Cooling system: The thermostat is free as is the control
system and the temperature at which the fan cuts in.
Locking system for the radiator cap is free.
- Carburettors: The original system must be retained.
The components of the carburettor which control the quantity of
petrol entering the combustion chamber may be modified,
provided that they do not have any influence over the quantity of
air admitted.
Replacement air filter cartridges are accepted in the same way
as the original ones.
- Injection: The original system must be retained.
Components of the injection system situated downstream of the
air-flow measuring device, and which control the quantity of
petrol entering the combustion chamber may be modified but
not replaced, provided that they do not have any influence over
the quantity of air admitted.
The interior of the electronic control unit for the injection is free.
Inputs to the electronic control unit (sensors, actuators, etc.),
including their function, must remain as standard.
Outputs from the electronic control unit must retain their original
functions in accordance with the homologation form.
In the case of a model fitted with a multiplexed electric
circuit, the use of a loom together with an electronic control
unit homologated in Option Variant is permitted.
It is necessary to be certain that the sensors used by a
vehicle fitted with a multiplexed electric circuit can be
retained with the homologated loom.
The injectors may be modified or replaced in order to modify
their flow rate, but without modifying their operating principle and
their mountings.
The injector rail may be replaced with another of free design but
fitted with threaded connectors for connecting the lines and the
fuel pressure regulator, provided that the mounting of the
injectors is identical to the original.
Replacement air filter cartridges are accepted in the same way
as the original ones.
- Lubrication: The fitting of baffles in the oil sump is authorised.
Replacement oil filter cartridges are accepted in the same way
as the original ones.
- The material of the elastic part of the engine and gearbox
mountings is free, but not the number of mountings.
- Exhaust :
It will be possible either to remove the inside of the original
silencer, or to modify the exhaust from the first silencer to the
exit, the maximum dimensions of the duct being those of the
pipe situated upstream of the first silencer (see drawing 254-3).
Should two inlets exist in the first silencer, the section of the
modified duct must be less than or equal to the total of the two
original sections.
Only one pipe may be present at the exit, unless the original
part is used.
The exit should be situated in the same position as that of the
series production exhaust system.
These liberties must not entail any bodywork modifications and
must respect the laws of the country in which the event is run
with regard to noise levels.
Additional parts for the mounting of the exhaust are authorised.
A muffler is a section of the exhaust system that must reduce
the exhaust noise level of the vehicle.
The cross section of the muffler must be at least 170% of that of
the inlet pipe and contain sound deadening material. The sound
deadening material may take the form of a 45% perforated tube
or synthetic packing.
The length of the muffler must be between 3 and 8 times the
inlet diameter.
The muffler may be supplied as a series part welded to a pipe
but the pipe is not considered as part of the muffler.
If it is fixed directly onto the manifold, the catalyst may be
replaced with a conical part of the same length and with the
same inlet and outlet diameters.
After this part, the exhaust will be free with a tube diameter no
greater than that of the outlet from the catalyst.
The catalytic converter is considered as a silencer.
All cars must be fitted with an original or a homologated catalytic
exhaust if this is obligatory in the country in which they are
registered, and must comply with the noise level defined in
article 252-3.6.
It may be moved.
The catalytic exhaust may be removed if it is not obligatory in
the organising country.
- Cylinder head gasket: The material is free, but not the
thickness.
- Cruising speed controller: This controller may be disconnected.
- In rallies only:
The number of cylinders is limited to 6.
The cubic capacity is limited as follows for normally aspirated
engines:
a) Normally aspirated engines
. 3 l maximum for two valves per cylinder.
. 2.5 l maximum for more than two valves per cylinder.
b) Supercharged engines
The nominal cylinder capacity is limited to 2500 cm3 maximum.
The supercharged system must comply with that of the
homologated engine.
All supercharged cars must be fitted with a restrictor fixed to the
compressor housing.
All the air necessary for feeding the engine must pass through
this restrictor which must respect the following:
The maximum internal diameter of the restrictor is 32 mm,
maintained for a minimum distance of 3 mm measured
downstream of a plane perpendicular to the rotational axis
situated at a maximum of 50 mm upstream of a plane passing
through the most upstream extremities of the wheel blades (see
drawing 254-4).
This diameter must be complied with, regardless of the
temperature conditions.
The external diameter of the restrictor at its narrowest point
must be less than 38 mm, and must be maintained over a
distance of 5 mm to each side.
The mounting of the restrictor onto the turbocharger must be
carried out in such a way that two screws have to be entirely
removed from the body of the compressor, or from the restrictor,
in order to detach the restrictor from the compressor.
Attachment by means of a needle screw is not authorised.
For the installation of this restrictor, it is permitted to remove
material from the compressor housing, and to add it, for the sole
purpose of attaching the restrictor onto the compressor housing.
The heads of the screws must be pierced so that they can be
sealed.
The restrictor must be made from a single material and may be
pierced solely for the purpose of mounting and sealing, which
must be carried out between the mounting screws, between the
restrictor (or the restrictor/compressor housing attachment), the
compressor housing (or the housing/flange attachment) and the
turbine housing (or the housing/flange attachment) (see
drawing 254-4).
In case of an engine with two parallel compressors, each
compressor must be limited to a maximum intake diameter of
22.6 mm.
Below are the FIA rules for running a Homologated GroupN car. All down in writting for all to see. I would like to see a copy of the local homologation papers in writing so they can be matched to the FIA papers. Without them in writing you have no way to tech inspect.
The FIA reference specific Homologation papers drawn up for each particular model. The available Homologated vehicles are....
N 5621 SUBARU IMPREZA SEDAN 2.0 4WD TURBO, GD 01.12.2000 2007+
N 5575 SUB FOR 2.0 4WD T SF 1994.4x1.7=3390.5cc 01.01.1998 2006+
N 5480 SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GC8 1994.4x1.7=3390.5 01.04.1993 2006+
each of these homologated vehicles has amendmants to the model homologated. For example the N5480 has the following amendments. There are multiple versions of the transmision homologated and multiple ratio's. Without the scrutineers having all the relevent papers to hand there is no way they can enforce the rules.
N 5480 SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GC8 1994.4x1.7=3390.5 Début d'homologation : 01.04.1993 Fin : 2006+
01.07.1993 1/1 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
LISTE DES HOMOLOGATIONS
HOMOLOGATIONS LIST
E_Voit_All.rtf - Dernière impression le 23/01/02 16:58 85 / 113
01.07.1993 2/1 VF MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.04.1994 3/2 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.04.1994 4/2 VF MOTEUR / ENGINE
RAPPORT DE PONT / FINAL DRIVE RATIO
01.10.1994 5/3 VF ROUE / WHEEL
01.03.1995 6/3 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
01.04.1995 7/4 VO RAPPORT DE PONT / FINAL DRIVE RATIO
01.01.1996 8/1 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.01.1996 9/2 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.12.1996 10/5 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
MOTEUR / ENGINE
TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
DIRECTION / STEERING
01.01.1997 11/6 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
FREIN / BRAKE
01.03.1997 12/7 VO DIMENSION / DIMENSION
TRAIN ROULANT / RUNNING GEAR
01.03.1997 13/8 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.07.1997 14/9 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
01.07.1997 15/10 VO SUSPENSION / SUSPENSION
COMPLEMENT D'INFORMATION / ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
01.08.1997 16/11 VO FREIN / BRAKE
01.08.1997 17/3 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.01.1998 18/12 VO FREIN / BRAKE
TABLEAU DE BORD / DASHBOARD
01.04.1998 19/4 VF FREIN / BRAKE
01.04.1998 20/13 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.07.1998 21/4 ER TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
01.07.1998 22/14 VO RAPPORT DE PONT / FINAL DRIVE RATIO
01.09.1998 23/5 ER FREIN / BRAKE
01.01.1999 24/15 VO CARROSSERIE / BODYWORK
01.01.1999 25/16 VO MOTEUR / ENGINE
TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
FREIN / BRAKE
01.04.1999 26/6 ER
01.05.1999 27/7 ER
01.07.1999 28/17 VO
01.07.2000 29/18 VO DISPOSITIFS AERODYNAMIQUES / AERODYNAMIC DEVICES
01.01.2001 30/19 VO BOITE DE VITESSES / GEARBOX
01.03.2001 31/8 ER MOTEUR / ENGINE
01.04.2001 32/20 VO TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
01.10.2001 33/21 VO TRANSMISSION / POWER TRAIN
Art. 254 - Specific Regulations for Production Cars (Group N)
ARTICLE 1 : DEFINITION
Large scale series production touring cars.
ARTICLE 2 : HOMOLOGATION
At least 2500 identical units must have been produced in 12
consecutive months and homologated by the FIA in Touring
Cars (Group A).
The Supply Variants (VF) homologated in Touring Cars
(Group A) are also valid in Production Cars (Group N).
All Production Variants (VP) are valid in Production Cars
(Group N).
Option Variants (VO) of the Touring Cars (Group A) form shall
not be valid in Production Cars (Group N), unless they refer to:
- engine flywheel of the same diameter and the same weight as
the original, if and only if this original flywheel is made up of two
parts.
- fly-wheel for automatic gearboxes ;
- fuel tank ;
- automatic gearboxes ;
- sun roof ;
- safety rollcage ;
- seat supports and anchorages;
- safety harness mounting points;
- 2/4 doors versions.
The specific Option-Variants (VO) for Group N may be used.
Super Production Option Variants (SP) shall not be valid in
Production Cars (Group N).
The use of tanks homologated in VO on the Touring Car
(Group A) form must be carried out under the conditions laid
down in article 5.9.2 of the Touring Car (Group A) regulations,
and article 254.6.8.
Evolutions of the type (ET), kit variants (VK) or sporting
evolutions (ES) homologated in Touring Cars (Group A) are not
valid in production Cars (Group N).
Nevertheless, evolutions of the type and the sporting evolutions
homologated, as from 01.01.97 in Group A, are valid in Group
N.
ARTICLE 3 : NUMBER OF SEATS
Cars must have at least four places, in accordance with the
dimensions defined for Touring Cars (Group A).
ARTICLE 4 : MODIFICATIONS AND ADJUNCTIONS
ALLOWED OR OBLIGATORY
All the modifications which are not allowed by the present
regulations are expressly forbidden.
The only work which may be carried out on the car is that
necessary for its normal servicing, or for the replacements of
parts worn through use or accident.
The limits of the modifications and fittings allowed are specified
hereinafter.
Apart from these, any part worn through use or accident can
only be replaced by an original part identical to the damaged
one.
The cars must be strictly series production models identifiable
by the homologation form data.
ARTICLE 5 : MINIMUM WEIGHT
Cars must have at least the weight appearing on the
homologation form plus the weight of the safety devices
As far as rollcages which cannot be removed from the car and
which were manufactured in accordance with articles 253.8.2
and 8.3 of Appendix J are concerned, the following weights will
be taken as a basis:
- Rollcage according to drawings 253-3/4: 30 kg
- Rollcage according to drawings 253-5 to 17C: 35 kg
This is the real weight of the empty car (without persons or
luggage aboard) without tools, jack.
All the liquid tanks (lubrication, cooling, braking, heating where
applicable) must be at the normal level foreseen by the
manufacturer, with the exception of the windscreen wiper or
headlight wiper, brake cooling system, fuel and water injection
tanks, which shall be empty.
Additional headlights which do not appear on the homologation
form must be removed before weighing.
ARTICLE 6 :
6.1 Engine
- Engine shields made of plastic material, the purpose of which
is to hide mechanical components in the engine compartment,
may be removed if they have a solely aesthetic function.
- The accelerator cable may be replaced or doubled by another
one regardless of whether it comes from the manufacturer or
not.
If the series vehicle is fitted with a motorised throttle valve, a
throttle kit with a mechanical linkage, homologated in Group N,
may be used.
- The screws and bolts may be changed, provided that the
replacements are made from ferrous material.
- Ignition: The make and type of the spark plugs, rev. limiter and
high-tension leads are free.
The electronic control unit and the ignition components in the
electronic control unit are free, nevertheless the system must be
entirely interchangeable with the original unit (i.e. the engine
must work when the unit is replaced with the series unit).
Sensors and actuators on the input side must be standard, as
must their function.
No sensor may be added, even for the purpose of data
recording.
In the case of a model fitted with a multiplexed electric
circuit, the use of a loom together with an electronic control
unit homologated in Option Variant is permitted.
- Any data recording system is forbidden unless fitted on the
homologated vehicle.
- Cooling system: The thermostat is free as is the control
system and the temperature at which the fan cuts in.
Locking system for the radiator cap is free.
- Carburettors: The original system must be retained.
The components of the carburettor which control the quantity of
petrol entering the combustion chamber may be modified,
provided that they do not have any influence over the quantity of
air admitted.
Replacement air filter cartridges are accepted in the same way
as the original ones.
- Injection: The original system must be retained.
Components of the injection system situated downstream of the
air-flow measuring device, and which control the quantity of
petrol entering the combustion chamber may be modified but
not replaced, provided that they do not have any influence over
the quantity of air admitted.
The interior of the electronic control unit for the injection is free.
Inputs to the electronic control unit (sensors, actuators, etc.),
including their function, must remain as standard.
Outputs from the electronic control unit must retain their original
functions in accordance with the homologation form.
In the case of a model fitted with a multiplexed electric
circuit, the use of a loom together with an electronic control
unit homologated in Option Variant is permitted.
It is necessary to be certain that the sensors used by a
vehicle fitted with a multiplexed electric circuit can be
retained with the homologated loom.
The injectors may be modified or replaced in order to modify
their flow rate, but without modifying their operating principle and
their mountings.
The injector rail may be replaced with another of free design but
fitted with threaded connectors for connecting the lines and the
fuel pressure regulator, provided that the mounting of the
injectors is identical to the original.
Replacement air filter cartridges are accepted in the same way
as the original ones.
- Lubrication: The fitting of baffles in the oil sump is authorised.
Replacement oil filter cartridges are accepted in the same way
as the original ones.
- The material of the elastic part of the engine and gearbox
mountings is free, but not the number of mountings.
- Exhaust :
It will be possible either to remove the inside of the original
silencer, or to modify the exhaust from the first silencer to the
exit, the maximum dimensions of the duct being those of the
pipe situated upstream of the first silencer (see drawing 254-3).
Should two inlets exist in the first silencer, the section of the
modified duct must be less than or equal to the total of the two
original sections.
Only one pipe may be present at the exit, unless the original
part is used.
The exit should be situated in the same position as that of the
series production exhaust system.
These liberties must not entail any bodywork modifications and
must respect the laws of the country in which the event is run
with regard to noise levels.
Additional parts for the mounting of the exhaust are authorised.
A muffler is a section of the exhaust system that must reduce
the exhaust noise level of the vehicle.
The cross section of the muffler must be at least 170% of that of
the inlet pipe and contain sound deadening material. The sound
deadening material may take the form of a 45% perforated tube
or synthetic packing.
The length of the muffler must be between 3 and 8 times the
inlet diameter.
The muffler may be supplied as a series part welded to a pipe
but the pipe is not considered as part of the muffler.
If it is fixed directly onto the manifold, the catalyst may be
replaced with a conical part of the same length and with the
same inlet and outlet diameters.
After this part, the exhaust will be free with a tube diameter no
greater than that of the outlet from the catalyst.
The catalytic converter is considered as a silencer.
All cars must be fitted with an original or a homologated catalytic
exhaust if this is obligatory in the country in which they are
registered, and must comply with the noise level defined in
article 252-3.6.
It may be moved.
The catalytic exhaust may be removed if it is not obligatory in
the organising country.
- Cylinder head gasket: The material is free, but not the
thickness.
- Cruising speed controller: This controller may be disconnected.
- In rallies only:
The number of cylinders is limited to 6.
The cubic capacity is limited as follows for normally aspirated
engines:
a) Normally aspirated engines
. 3 l maximum for two valves per cylinder.
. 2.5 l maximum for more than two valves per cylinder.
b) Supercharged engines
The nominal cylinder capacity is limited to 2500 cm3 maximum.
The supercharged system must comply with that of the
homologated engine.
All supercharged cars must be fitted with a restrictor fixed to the
compressor housing.
All the air necessary for feeding the engine must pass through
this restrictor which must respect the following:
The maximum internal diameter of the restrictor is 32 mm,
maintained for a minimum distance of 3 mm measured
downstream of a plane perpendicular to the rotational axis
situated at a maximum of 50 mm upstream of a plane passing
through the most upstream extremities of the wheel blades (see
drawing 254-4).
This diameter must be complied with, regardless of the
temperature conditions.
The external diameter of the restrictor at its narrowest point
must be less than 38 mm, and must be maintained over a
distance of 5 mm to each side.
The mounting of the restrictor onto the turbocharger must be
carried out in such a way that two screws have to be entirely
removed from the body of the compressor, or from the restrictor,
in order to detach the restrictor from the compressor.
Attachment by means of a needle screw is not authorised.
For the installation of this restrictor, it is permitted to remove
material from the compressor housing, and to add it, for the sole
purpose of attaching the restrictor onto the compressor housing.
The heads of the screws must be pierced so that they can be
sealed.
The restrictor must be made from a single material and may be
pierced solely for the purpose of mounting and sealing, which
must be carried out between the mounting screws, between the
restrictor (or the restrictor/compressor housing attachment), the
compressor housing (or the housing/flange attachment) and the
turbine housing (or the housing/flange attachment) (see
drawing 254-4).
In case of an engine with two parallel compressors, each
compressor must be limited to a maximum intake diameter of
22.6 mm.
| johnfelstead | 01-29-2002 07:47 PM |
- Diesel engine :
For vehicles with Diesel engines, the restrictor must have a
maximum internal diameter of 35 mm and an external diameter
of 41 mm, in the conditions set out above (this diameter may be
revised at any moment without notice).
This restrictor, which is compulsory in rallies and in the
European Hill-Climb Championship, is not prohibited in other
events, should a competitor decide to use it.
6.2 Transmission
6.2.1) Clutch:
The disc is free, including the weight, with the exception of the
number and diameter.
6.2.2) Gearbox:
The interior of the gearbox is free.
The number of teeth and ratios homologated in Group N must
be retained.
The joints of the gearbox linkage are free.
6.2.3) Differential:
The use of a mechanical type limited slip differential is
authorised, provided that it can be fitted in the series housing
and is homologated in Group N Option Variant (VO).
In order to allow its fitting, the interior of the original differential's
housing may be modified.
"Mechanical limited slip differential" means any system which
works purely mechanically, i.e. without the help of a hydraulic or
electric system.
A viscous clutch is not considered to be a mechanical system.
If the homologated vehicle is fitted with a viscous clutch, it may
be retained but it will not be possible to add another differential.
6.2.4) Half-shafts :
They must be original or homologated in Option Variant
(VO).
6.3 Suspension
The reinforcing of the structural parts of the suspension (with the
exception of anti-roll bars) and its anchorage points by the
addition of material is allowed.
The suspension reinforcements must not create hollow
sections and must not allow two separate parts to be joined
together to form one.
- Springs:
The spring seats may be adjustable if the adjustable structural
part is a part of the spring seat and is separated from the
original suspension parts/bodywork (it may be removed).
Coil springs: The length is free, as are the number of coils, the
wire diameter, the external diameter, the type of spring
(progressive or not) and the shape of the spring seats.
The number of springs is free provided the springs are mounted
in series.
Leaf springs: The length, width, thickness and vertical curvature
are free.
Torsion bars: The diameter is free.
These freedoms on the suspension springs do not authorise one
to disregard article 205 of the homologation form (minimum
height of the centre of the hubcap, wheel passage opening).
- Shock absorbers:
Free, provided that their number, their type (telescopic, arm,
etc.), their working principle (hydraulic, friction, mixed, etc.), and
their attachment points remain unchanged.
The checking of the operating principle of the shock absorbers
will be carried out as follows :
Once the springs and/or the torsion bars are removed, the
vehicle must sink down to the bump stops in less than 5
minutes.
The damper tanks may be attached onto the unmodified shell of
the cars.
If the shock absorbers have separate fluid reserves located in
the cockpit, or in the boot if this is not separated from the
cockpit, these must be strongly fixed and must have a
protection.
A silent block may be replaced by a "Uniball" joint, but only on
condition that the shock absorber has no guiding function.
Gas filled dampers, regarding their working principle, will be
considered as hydraulic dampers.
If, in order to change the damping element of a Mac Pherson
suspension, or a suspension operating in an identical manner, it
is necessary to replace the entire Mac Pherson strut, the
replacement parts must be mechanically equivalent to the
original ones and have the same mounting points.
For McPherson suspensions, the shape of the spring seats is
free.
Their material is free.
In the case of oil-pneumatic suspension, the spheres may be
changed as regards their dimension, shape and material, but
not their number.
A tap, adjustable from outside of the car, may be fitted on the
spheres.
- Silent blocks:
The elastomer of a silent block may only be replaced with an
elastomer (maximum hardness 80 Shores).
6.4 Wheels and tyres
6.4.1) Wheels:
The wheels are free, respecting the homologated maximum
diameter (article 801.a), and maximum width (article 801.b).
The use of wheels with lesser dimensions is permitted.
Wheels made from forged magnesium are forbidden (including
standard wheels).
They must be covered by the wings (same checking system as
in Group A, article 255.5.4), and the maximum track given on
the homologation form must be respected.
Wheels fixations by bolts may be changed to fixations by pins
and nuts provided that the number of attachment points and the
diameter of the threaded parts as indicated on drawing 254-1
are respected.
Air extractors added on the wheels are forbidden.
6.4.2) Tyres:
Tyres are free provided that they can be mounted on those
wheels.
The use of any device for maintaining the performance of the
tyre with an internal pressure equal to or less than the
atmospheric pressure is forbidden. The interior of the tyre
(space between the rim and internal part of the tyre) must be
filled only with air.
6.4.3) Spare wheel:
The spare wheel (wheels) is (are) compulsory if mentioned in
the homologation form.
The spare wheel may be brought inside the driving
compartment, on condition that it is firmly secured there and that
it is not installed in the space reserved for the occupants.
6.5 Braking system
With the exception of the modifications authorised by this
article, the braking system must be original or homologated
in Option Variant (VO).
Brake linings are free, as well as their mountings (riveted,
bonded, etc.) provided that the contact surface of the brakes is
not increased.
Protection plates may be removed or bent.
In the case of a car fitted with servo-assisted brakes, this device
may be disconnected. The same applies for anti-lock braking
systems.
If the anti-lock braking system (ABS) is disconnected or
removed, the use of a mechanical rear braking distributor
homologated by the manufacturer in VO is authorised.
It is permitted to add a spring in the bore of the calipers.
Brake lines may be changed for aviation type lines.
A device for scraping away the mud which collects on the brake
discs and / or the wheels may be added.
6.5.1) Handbrake:
The mechanical handbrake may be replaced with a hydraulic
system homologated in Group N, but in this case a diagonal
brake circuit (X shape) is mandatory.
6.6 Bodywork
6.6.1) Exterior :
Hubcaps must be removed.
Protective headlight covers may be fitted provided that their only
function is to cover the glass, and that they have no influence on
the car's aerodynamics.
The fitting of underbody protections is authorised in rallies only,
provided that these really are protections which respect the
ground clearance, which are removable and which are designed
exclusively and specifically in order to protect the following
parts: engine, radiator, suspension, gearbox, tank, transmission,
steering, exhaust, extinguisher bottles.
Any locking system may be used for the cap of the petrol tank.
The changing of the front and rear windscreen wiper blades is
authorised.
6.6.2) Interior :
The front seats may be moved backwards but not beyond the
vertical plane defined by the front edge of the original rear seat.
The limit relating to the front seat is formed by the height of the
seat without the headrest, and if the headrest is incorporated
into the seat, by the rearmost point of the driver's shoulders.
The rear seats may be removed.
The rear safety belts may be removed.
6.6.2.1) Should the fuel tank be installed in the boot and the
rear seats removed, a fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead must
separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
In the case of twin-volume cars it will be possible to use a nonstructural
partition wall in transparent, non-flammable plastic
between the cockpit and the tank arrangement.
6.6.2.2) Dashboard:
The dashboard and the central console must remain original.
6.6.2.3) Doors - Side trim:
It is permitted to remove the soundproofing material from the
doors, provided that this does not modify the shape of the doors.
It is permitted to remove the trim from the doors together with
their side protection bars in order to install a side protection
panel which is made from composite materials.
The minimum configuration of this panel must comply with that
shown on drawing 255-14.
The rules mentioned above also apply to the trim situated
beneath the rear side windows of two-door cars.
The minimum height of the door's side protection panel must
extend from the base of the door to the maximum height of the
door strut.
It is permitted to replace electric winders with manual ones.
6.6.2.4) Floor
Carpets are free and may thus be removed.
6.6.2.5) Other sound-proofing materials and trim:
Other soundproofing materials and trim, except for those
mentioned under articles 6.6.2.3 (Doors) and 6.6.2.2
(Dashboard), may be removed.
6.6.2.6) Heating system:
The original heating equipment must be retained.
6.6.2.7) The removable rear shelf in twin-volume cars may
be removed.
6.6.3) Additional accessories:
All those which have no influence on the car's behaviour, for
example equipment which improves the aesthetics or comfort of
the car interior (lighting, heating, radio, etc.), are allowed without
restriction.
In no case may these accessories increase the engine power or
influence the steering, transmission, brakes, or roadholding,
even in an indirect fashion.
All controls must retain the role laid down for them by the
manufacturer.
They may be adapted to facilitate their use and accessibility, for
example a longer handbrake lever, an additional flange on the
brake pedal, etc.
The following is allowed:
1) Measuring instruments such as speedometers etc. may be
installed or replaced, and possibly have different functions. Such
installations must not involve any risk. However, the
speedometer may not be removed if the supplementary
regulations of the event prevent this.
2) The horn may be changed and/or an additional one added,
within reach of the passenger.
The horn is not compulsory on closed roads.
3) The handbrake locking mechanism may be removed in
order to obtain instant unlocking (fly-off handbrake).
4) The steering wheel is free.
The locking system of the anti-theft steering lock may be
rendered inoperative.
5) Additional compartments may be added to the glove
compartment and additional pockets in the doors, provided that
they use the original panels.
6) Insulating material may be added to the existing bulkheads
to protect the passengers from fire.
6.6.4) Reinforcements :
Reinforcement bars may be fitted on the suspension mounting
points to the bodyshell or chassis of the same axle, on each
side of the car's longitudinal axis, on condition that they are
removable and are attached by means of bolts.
The distance between a suspension attachment point and an
anchorage point of the bar cannot be more than 100 mm, unless
the bar is a transversal strut homologated with the rollbar, or
unless it is an upper bar attached to a MacPherson suspension
or similar.
In the latter case, the maximum distance between an anchorage
point of the bar and the upper articulation point will be 150 mm
(drawings 255-4 and 255-2).
Apart from these points, this bar must not be mounted on the
bodyshell or the mechanical parts.
Strengthening of the suspended part is allowed provided that the
material used follows the original shape and is in contact with it.
6.6.5) When the spare wheel is originally set in a closed
accommodation, and when this wheel is changed for a thicker
one (see article 6.4), situated in this space, it is possible to
remove from the cover of the location of the wheel the surface
induced by the diameter of the new wheel (drawing 254-2).
6.7 Electrical system
- Battery: The make, capacity, and battery cables are free. The
tension and the site of the battery must be retained.
A power take-off connected to the battery is permitted in the
passenger space.
- Generator: May be replaced by a more powerful one. A
dynamo may not be replaced by an alternator and vice-versa.
- Lighting system: Additional headlights including the
corresponding relays are allowed, provided that the total does
not exceed eight (tail and parking lights not included) and that
this is accepted by the laws of the country.
They may not be housed within the bodywork. Headlights and
other exterior lights must always exist in pairs.
The original headlights can be made inoperative and covered
with adhesive tape.
They can be replaced by other headlights, in compliance with
this article.
A reversing light may be fitted provided it can only be used when
the gear lever is in the "reverse" position, and provided that the
police regulations on this subject are observed.
- Fuses may be added to the electrical system.
6.8 Fuel circuit
Providing the original tank is equipped with an electric pump and
an interior filter, it is possible when using an FT3 or FT3 1999
tank or another tank homologated by the manufacturer on the
car's homologation form to place a filter and a pump with
identical characteristics to the homologated one outside.
These parts must be protected in adequate fashion.
The fitting of a second fuel pump is authorised, but this must be
only a spare fuel pump, i.e. it cannot operate in addition to the
authorised pump. It must be connectable only when the car is
immobile and by means of a purely mechanical device situated
beside the pumps.
The filler holes may not be located in the window panels.
Fuel lines must be changed for aviation type lines if an FT3 or
FT3 1999 tank is used, the route of these lines being free.
Should a series production tank be used, this change is
optional.
The total capacity of the tanks must not exceed that indicated in
article 401.d of the Group N homologation form, except for
rallies, if the car is fitted with FT3 or FT3 1999 tanks.
In this case, the total capacity of the tanks must not exceed the
following limits, in relation to the engine capacity:
up to 700 cm3: 60 l
over 700 cm3 and up to 1000 cm3: 70 l
over 1000 cm3 and up to 1400 cm3: 80 l
over 1400 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3: 90 l
over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3: 100 l
over 2000 cm3 and up to 2500 cm3: 110 l
over 2500 cm3: 120 l
.
For vehicles with Diesel engines, the restrictor must have a
maximum internal diameter of 35 mm and an external diameter
of 41 mm, in the conditions set out above (this diameter may be
revised at any moment without notice).
This restrictor, which is compulsory in rallies and in the
European Hill-Climb Championship, is not prohibited in other
events, should a competitor decide to use it.
6.2 Transmission
6.2.1) Clutch:
The disc is free, including the weight, with the exception of the
number and diameter.
6.2.2) Gearbox:
The interior of the gearbox is free.
The number of teeth and ratios homologated in Group N must
be retained.
The joints of the gearbox linkage are free.
6.2.3) Differential:
The use of a mechanical type limited slip differential is
authorised, provided that it can be fitted in the series housing
and is homologated in Group N Option Variant (VO).
In order to allow its fitting, the interior of the original differential's
housing may be modified.
"Mechanical limited slip differential" means any system which
works purely mechanically, i.e. without the help of a hydraulic or
electric system.
A viscous clutch is not considered to be a mechanical system.
If the homologated vehicle is fitted with a viscous clutch, it may
be retained but it will not be possible to add another differential.
6.2.4) Half-shafts :
They must be original or homologated in Option Variant
(VO).
6.3 Suspension
The reinforcing of the structural parts of the suspension (with the
exception of anti-roll bars) and its anchorage points by the
addition of material is allowed.
The suspension reinforcements must not create hollow
sections and must not allow two separate parts to be joined
together to form one.
- Springs:
The spring seats may be adjustable if the adjustable structural
part is a part of the spring seat and is separated from the
original suspension parts/bodywork (it may be removed).
Coil springs: The length is free, as are the number of coils, the
wire diameter, the external diameter, the type of spring
(progressive or not) and the shape of the spring seats.
The number of springs is free provided the springs are mounted
in series.
Leaf springs: The length, width, thickness and vertical curvature
are free.
Torsion bars: The diameter is free.
These freedoms on the suspension springs do not authorise one
to disregard article 205 of the homologation form (minimum
height of the centre of the hubcap, wheel passage opening).
- Shock absorbers:
Free, provided that their number, their type (telescopic, arm,
etc.), their working principle (hydraulic, friction, mixed, etc.), and
their attachment points remain unchanged.
The checking of the operating principle of the shock absorbers
will be carried out as follows :
Once the springs and/or the torsion bars are removed, the
vehicle must sink down to the bump stops in less than 5
minutes.
The damper tanks may be attached onto the unmodified shell of
the cars.
If the shock absorbers have separate fluid reserves located in
the cockpit, or in the boot if this is not separated from the
cockpit, these must be strongly fixed and must have a
protection.
A silent block may be replaced by a "Uniball" joint, but only on
condition that the shock absorber has no guiding function.
Gas filled dampers, regarding their working principle, will be
considered as hydraulic dampers.
If, in order to change the damping element of a Mac Pherson
suspension, or a suspension operating in an identical manner, it
is necessary to replace the entire Mac Pherson strut, the
replacement parts must be mechanically equivalent to the
original ones and have the same mounting points.
For McPherson suspensions, the shape of the spring seats is
free.
Their material is free.
In the case of oil-pneumatic suspension, the spheres may be
changed as regards their dimension, shape and material, but
not their number.
A tap, adjustable from outside of the car, may be fitted on the
spheres.
- Silent blocks:
The elastomer of a silent block may only be replaced with an
elastomer (maximum hardness 80 Shores).
6.4 Wheels and tyres
6.4.1) Wheels:
The wheels are free, respecting the homologated maximum
diameter (article 801.a), and maximum width (article 801.b).
The use of wheels with lesser dimensions is permitted.
Wheels made from forged magnesium are forbidden (including
standard wheels).
They must be covered by the wings (same checking system as
in Group A, article 255.5.4), and the maximum track given on
the homologation form must be respected.
Wheels fixations by bolts may be changed to fixations by pins
and nuts provided that the number of attachment points and the
diameter of the threaded parts as indicated on drawing 254-1
are respected.
Air extractors added on the wheels are forbidden.
6.4.2) Tyres:
Tyres are free provided that they can be mounted on those
wheels.
The use of any device for maintaining the performance of the
tyre with an internal pressure equal to or less than the
atmospheric pressure is forbidden. The interior of the tyre
(space between the rim and internal part of the tyre) must be
filled only with air.
6.4.3) Spare wheel:
The spare wheel (wheels) is (are) compulsory if mentioned in
the homologation form.
The spare wheel may be brought inside the driving
compartment, on condition that it is firmly secured there and that
it is not installed in the space reserved for the occupants.
6.5 Braking system
With the exception of the modifications authorised by this
article, the braking system must be original or homologated
in Option Variant (VO).
Brake linings are free, as well as their mountings (riveted,
bonded, etc.) provided that the contact surface of the brakes is
not increased.
Protection plates may be removed or bent.
In the case of a car fitted with servo-assisted brakes, this device
may be disconnected. The same applies for anti-lock braking
systems.
If the anti-lock braking system (ABS) is disconnected or
removed, the use of a mechanical rear braking distributor
homologated by the manufacturer in VO is authorised.
It is permitted to add a spring in the bore of the calipers.
Brake lines may be changed for aviation type lines.
A device for scraping away the mud which collects on the brake
discs and / or the wheels may be added.
6.5.1) Handbrake:
The mechanical handbrake may be replaced with a hydraulic
system homologated in Group N, but in this case a diagonal
brake circuit (X shape) is mandatory.
6.6 Bodywork
6.6.1) Exterior :
Hubcaps must be removed.
Protective headlight covers may be fitted provided that their only
function is to cover the glass, and that they have no influence on
the car's aerodynamics.
The fitting of underbody protections is authorised in rallies only,
provided that these really are protections which respect the
ground clearance, which are removable and which are designed
exclusively and specifically in order to protect the following
parts: engine, radiator, suspension, gearbox, tank, transmission,
steering, exhaust, extinguisher bottles.
Any locking system may be used for the cap of the petrol tank.
The changing of the front and rear windscreen wiper blades is
authorised.
6.6.2) Interior :
The front seats may be moved backwards but not beyond the
vertical plane defined by the front edge of the original rear seat.
The limit relating to the front seat is formed by the height of the
seat without the headrest, and if the headrest is incorporated
into the seat, by the rearmost point of the driver's shoulders.
The rear seats may be removed.
The rear safety belts may be removed.
6.6.2.1) Should the fuel tank be installed in the boot and the
rear seats removed, a fireproof and liquid-proof bulkhead must
separate the cockpit from the fuel tank.
In the case of twin-volume cars it will be possible to use a nonstructural
partition wall in transparent, non-flammable plastic
between the cockpit and the tank arrangement.
6.6.2.2) Dashboard:
The dashboard and the central console must remain original.
6.6.2.3) Doors - Side trim:
It is permitted to remove the soundproofing material from the
doors, provided that this does not modify the shape of the doors.
It is permitted to remove the trim from the doors together with
their side protection bars in order to install a side protection
panel which is made from composite materials.
The minimum configuration of this panel must comply with that
shown on drawing 255-14.
The rules mentioned above also apply to the trim situated
beneath the rear side windows of two-door cars.
The minimum height of the door's side protection panel must
extend from the base of the door to the maximum height of the
door strut.
It is permitted to replace electric winders with manual ones.
6.6.2.4) Floor
Carpets are free and may thus be removed.
6.6.2.5) Other sound-proofing materials and trim:
Other soundproofing materials and trim, except for those
mentioned under articles 6.6.2.3 (Doors) and 6.6.2.2
(Dashboard), may be removed.
6.6.2.6) Heating system:
The original heating equipment must be retained.
6.6.2.7) The removable rear shelf in twin-volume cars may
be removed.
6.6.3) Additional accessories:
All those which have no influence on the car's behaviour, for
example equipment which improves the aesthetics or comfort of
the car interior (lighting, heating, radio, etc.), are allowed without
restriction.
In no case may these accessories increase the engine power or
influence the steering, transmission, brakes, or roadholding,
even in an indirect fashion.
All controls must retain the role laid down for them by the
manufacturer.
They may be adapted to facilitate their use and accessibility, for
example a longer handbrake lever, an additional flange on the
brake pedal, etc.
The following is allowed:
1) Measuring instruments such as speedometers etc. may be
installed or replaced, and possibly have different functions. Such
installations must not involve any risk. However, the
speedometer may not be removed if the supplementary
regulations of the event prevent this.
2) The horn may be changed and/or an additional one added,
within reach of the passenger.
The horn is not compulsory on closed roads.
3) The handbrake locking mechanism may be removed in
order to obtain instant unlocking (fly-off handbrake).
4) The steering wheel is free.
The locking system of the anti-theft steering lock may be
rendered inoperative.
5) Additional compartments may be added to the glove
compartment and additional pockets in the doors, provided that
they use the original panels.
6) Insulating material may be added to the existing bulkheads
to protect the passengers from fire.
6.6.4) Reinforcements :
Reinforcement bars may be fitted on the suspension mounting
points to the bodyshell or chassis of the same axle, on each
side of the car's longitudinal axis, on condition that they are
removable and are attached by means of bolts.
The distance between a suspension attachment point and an
anchorage point of the bar cannot be more than 100 mm, unless
the bar is a transversal strut homologated with the rollbar, or
unless it is an upper bar attached to a MacPherson suspension
or similar.
In the latter case, the maximum distance between an anchorage
point of the bar and the upper articulation point will be 150 mm
(drawings 255-4 and 255-2).
Apart from these points, this bar must not be mounted on the
bodyshell or the mechanical parts.
Strengthening of the suspended part is allowed provided that the
material used follows the original shape and is in contact with it.
6.6.5) When the spare wheel is originally set in a closed
accommodation, and when this wheel is changed for a thicker
one (see article 6.4), situated in this space, it is possible to
remove from the cover of the location of the wheel the surface
induced by the diameter of the new wheel (drawing 254-2).
6.7 Electrical system
- Battery: The make, capacity, and battery cables are free. The
tension and the site of the battery must be retained.
A power take-off connected to the battery is permitted in the
passenger space.
- Generator: May be replaced by a more powerful one. A
dynamo may not be replaced by an alternator and vice-versa.
- Lighting system: Additional headlights including the
corresponding relays are allowed, provided that the total does
not exceed eight (tail and parking lights not included) and that
this is accepted by the laws of the country.
They may not be housed within the bodywork. Headlights and
other exterior lights must always exist in pairs.
The original headlights can be made inoperative and covered
with adhesive tape.
They can be replaced by other headlights, in compliance with
this article.
A reversing light may be fitted provided it can only be used when
the gear lever is in the "reverse" position, and provided that the
police regulations on this subject are observed.
- Fuses may be added to the electrical system.
6.8 Fuel circuit
Providing the original tank is equipped with an electric pump and
an interior filter, it is possible when using an FT3 or FT3 1999
tank or another tank homologated by the manufacturer on the
car's homologation form to place a filter and a pump with
identical characteristics to the homologated one outside.
These parts must be protected in adequate fashion.
The fitting of a second fuel pump is authorised, but this must be
only a spare fuel pump, i.e. it cannot operate in addition to the
authorised pump. It must be connectable only when the car is
immobile and by means of a purely mechanical device situated
beside the pumps.
The filler holes may not be located in the window panels.
Fuel lines must be changed for aviation type lines if an FT3 or
FT3 1999 tank is used, the route of these lines being free.
Should a series production tank be used, this change is
optional.
The total capacity of the tanks must not exceed that indicated in
article 401.d of the Group N homologation form, except for
rallies, if the car is fitted with FT3 or FT3 1999 tanks.
In this case, the total capacity of the tanks must not exceed the
following limits, in relation to the engine capacity:
up to 700 cm3: 60 l
over 700 cm3 and up to 1000 cm3: 70 l
over 1000 cm3 and up to 1400 cm3: 80 l
over 1400 cm3 and up to 1600 cm3: 90 l
over 1600 cm3 and up to 2000 cm3: 100 l
over 2000 cm3 and up to 2500 cm3: 110 l
over 2500 cm3: 120 l
.
| johnfelstead | 01-29-2002 07:48 PM |
For twin-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98 with a fuel
tank installed in the luggage compartment, a fireproof and liquidproof
case must surround the fuel tank and its filler holes.
For three-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98, a fireproof
and liquid-proof bulkhead must separate the cockpit from the
fuel tank. Nevertheless, it is recommended that this liquid-proof
bulkhead be replaced by a liquid-proof case as for twin-volume
cars.
6.9 Jack
The jacking points may be strengthened, moved and increased
in number. These modifications are limited exclusively to the
jacking points
tank installed in the luggage compartment, a fireproof and liquidproof
case must surround the fuel tank and its filler holes.
For three-volume cars homologated from 01.01.98, a fireproof
and liquid-proof bulkhead must separate the cockpit from the
fuel tank. Nevertheless, it is recommended that this liquid-proof
bulkhead be replaced by a liquid-proof case as for twin-volume
cars.
6.9 Jack
The jacking points may be strengthened, moved and increased
in number. These modifications are limited exclusively to the
jacking points
| johnfelstead | 01-29-2002 07:54 PM |
what i am trying to illustate with the above is that to have credibility you have to have rules and papers that must be aplied to all.
If the SCCA decide they cant run to the letter of the FIA rules then there needs to be documents used as reference that all competitors have access too.
I dont have any issues with you guys running a form of groupN as a transition but it has to be done in a way that can stand to scrutiny, with docs to back it up. What apears to be the case is the rules are made on the fly, thats not acceptable.
If the SCCA decide they cant run to the letter of the FIA rules then there needs to be documents used as reference that all competitors have access too.
I dont have any issues with you guys running a form of groupN as a transition but it has to be done in a way that can stand to scrutiny, with docs to back it up. What apears to be the case is the rules are made on the fly, thats not acceptable.
| Rally-RS | 01-29-2002 08:16 PM |
Jamie,
A competitor has the option Before the event begins to swithc to another class.
Officials can not "bump" a car/driver into another class after the event, nor during for that matter.
steve
A competitor has the option Before the event begins to swithc to another class.
Officials can not "bump" a car/driver into another class after the event, nor during for that matter.
steve
| Thug | 01-30-2002 08:19 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rally-RS [/i]
[B]Jamie,
A competitor has the option Before the event begins to swithc to another class.
Officials can not "bump" a car/driver into another class after the event, nor during for that matter.
steve [/B][/QUOTE]
They did it to Randy Zimmer at Cherokee Trails. Read RalliSpec's reply.
[B]Jamie,
A competitor has the option Before the event begins to swithc to another class.
Officials can not "bump" a car/driver into another class after the event, nor during for that matter.
steve [/B][/QUOTE]
They did it to Randy Zimmer at Cherokee Trails. Read RalliSpec's reply.
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