| javid | 02-21-2006 11:06 AM |
Rotors for track use?
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I am having a little trouble with the racing brake two piece rotors for track use. See my write-up here: (Cliff notes: they DONT WORK on track but I may have one of the lower grade rotor compounds available from RB) [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936395[/url] . I am running the two piece rotors mainly for reduced heat transfer to the hubs, reduced wieght and all the other jazz that rotor/brake companies talk about is nice but not as important. I have brake ducts for the front and I am very pleased with the Carbotech XPs (currently on 10). I may end up just buying another set of stock rotors as spares and bail on the two-piece for now, but I am still curious about what two piece rotors for the STi have been track proven?
Thanks guys.
Thanks guys.
| WgnWheel | 02-21-2006 03:47 PM |
Hmmm. we've been testing their 2pc rotors on a wrx and sti for the last 3 or 4 hpde, time trials and time attack events, with success!!? rotor temps are down, no fade etc. BUT, as they stated we are using hp+ pads. We will be testing more aggressive hawk pads in the near future. I interested in your findings for sure! I've met the engineer for Rb and he definetely has an interest in making the best rotors available for track/street.
[url]www.surgeusa.com[/url]
[url]www.surgeusa.com[/url]
| goto_racing | 02-21-2006 04:34 PM |
Likewise with us. The increase in performance and life with RB two pieces was quantitatively noticable in our testing, so now we run them exclusively. And their compounds are great. We ran an entire 25 hour event on a single set, and we are still sprinting on them! I am going to read your article with interest, because I can't believe anyone would find them less than spectacular.
Chris Lock
Chris Lock
| javid | 02-21-2006 05:11 PM |
Well, both your comments are similar to Tom Long's (see review). We talked extensively at VIR and the only thing we could come up with is that I may have a 'street' compound (Alloy Grey Iron per the RB site) rather than the CGI that he has had such great success with (with XP9 and XP10). I didn't realize the options where available when I ordered; however, I should note that if the compound is the issue, what ever one I have seems to be inferior to the OEM rotor compound for track use with a full race pad.
VIR had wireless so we hopped on the site and the S/N that was provided on the STi page for the 2-piece rotors makes no sense at all.
I am holding for Warren's email or contact info.
VIR had wireless so we hopped on the site and the S/N that was provided on the STi page for the 2-piece rotors makes no sense at all.
I am holding for Warren's email or contact info.
| AndrewSS | 02-21-2006 05:23 PM |
hey, have you heard of the brakeman rotors made for the STi recently, I dont know all the details about these but they seemed nice, on IWSTI there is some talk about them that you could check out
| goto_racing | 02-21-2006 08:06 PM |
When you talked about "pad transfer", you meant uneven transfer right? material transfer is normal and necesary, just not so that you get the shakes.
You condition sounds similar to when I ran an 87 crx with the Carbotech pads in a 25 hour event. under normal conditions, they worked well. But as night fell, the 1800lb crx couldn't use the brakes enough to keep them warm. The brakes began to transfer material unevenly and caused wicked vibrations.
I would hazard a guess that your uneven transfer started on your drive to the track. Temps might have been too cool during that drive for the compound, causing uneven transfer that only got worse through your track day.
I would suggest that if you are going to run race compound rotors and pads, to put them on and take them off at the track, and carry a stock set for the street. Then you won't have to worry about that. I would also say try Hawk as Warren suggests, or try Cobalts, what we use. We know both of those compounds to work with the RB rotors.
Chris Lock
You condition sounds similar to when I ran an 87 crx with the Carbotech pads in a 25 hour event. under normal conditions, they worked well. But as night fell, the 1800lb crx couldn't use the brakes enough to keep them warm. The brakes began to transfer material unevenly and caused wicked vibrations.
I would hazard a guess that your uneven transfer started on your drive to the track. Temps might have been too cool during that drive for the compound, causing uneven transfer that only got worse through your track day.
I would suggest that if you are going to run race compound rotors and pads, to put them on and take them off at the track, and carry a stock set for the street. Then you won't have to worry about that. I would also say try Hawk as Warren suggests, or try Cobalts, what we use. We know both of those compounds to work with the RB rotors.
Chris Lock
| BIGSKYWRX | 02-21-2006 09:54 PM |
If for some reason you can't get it sorted- I've had very good luck w/ DBA's club spec rotors, both the one piece (4000 series) and two piece (5000 series). Albeit this on a WRX (they do have STi applications though).
They have some 24 hour experience as well (down under) w/ their rotors
[url]http://www.dba.com.au/dbamotorsport/24hrbathurst2003/index.asp[/url]
24 hours on the same rotor is pretty impressive to me :)
They have some 24 hour experience as well (down under) w/ their rotors
[url]http://www.dba.com.au/dbamotorsport/24hrbathurst2003/index.asp[/url]
24 hours on the same rotor is pretty impressive to me :)
| javid | 02-21-2006 11:36 PM |
Chris,
yes, uneven tranfer, inside and out. I should try to grab picks but I imagine that a camera wouldn't capature it that well. You could be correct with the cool temp issue as both times they failed it was 'cool' (40 to 50 deg at the local track and around 50 deg this past weekend during the first session). However, I have run XPs to and from the track on the stock rotors for a couple years now. Is their some reason that the slotted might have a problem but the stockers wouldn't tranfer? I asked the customer rep if the rotors might be getting too cold or too hot, he told me to try the hawk pads. :huh:
We always bring the brakes up to temp before braking hard...
Do you run the CGI compound? Brake ducts? When I first considered running brake ducts I talked with a local shop, Performance Imports, that builds and maintains Porsche Cup cars. They said I need not worry about covering ducts in the cold, wet, ect. If you have ducts, when do you cover them?
yes, uneven tranfer, inside and out. I should try to grab picks but I imagine that a camera wouldn't capature it that well. You could be correct with the cool temp issue as both times they failed it was 'cool' (40 to 50 deg at the local track and around 50 deg this past weekend during the first session). However, I have run XPs to and from the track on the stock rotors for a couple years now. Is their some reason that the slotted might have a problem but the stockers wouldn't tranfer? I asked the customer rep if the rotors might be getting too cold or too hot, he told me to try the hawk pads. :huh:
We always bring the brakes up to temp before braking hard...
Do you run the CGI compound? Brake ducts? When I first considered running brake ducts I talked with a local shop, Performance Imports, that builds and maintains Porsche Cup cars. They said I need not worry about covering ducts in the cold, wet, ect. If you have ducts, when do you cover them?
| javid | 02-21-2006 11:38 PM |
BIGSKYWRX, what pads have you run on them? Did you run a big caliper upfront on the WRX?
| infantsam | 02-22-2006 12:53 AM |
[QUOTE=goto_racing]When you talked about "pad transfer", you meant uneven transfer right? material transfer is normal and necesary, just not so that you get the shakes.
You condition sounds similar to when I ran an 87 crx with the Carbotech pads in a 25 hour event. under normal conditions, they worked well. But as night fell, the 1800lb crx couldn't use the brakes enough to keep them warm. The brakes began to transfer material unevenly and caused wicked vibrations.
I would hazard a guess that your uneven transfer started on your drive to the track. Temps might have been too cool during that drive for the compound, causing uneven transfer that only got worse through your track day.
I would suggest that if you are going to run race compound rotors and pads, to put them on and take them off at the track, and carry a stock set for the street. Then you won't have to worry about that. I would also say try Hawk as Warren suggests, or try Cobalts, what we use. We know both of those compounds to work with the RB rotors.
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
I think you are close Chris - what I think actually happens is as the pad falls under temperature and switches back to abrasive friction mode it will strip the transfer layer away from the rotor - potentially unevenly.
This is the opposite of applying the transfer layer unevenly which happens when a hot pad is held against a hot rotor without enough motion to 'paint it on there' evenly. The end result is the same though - an uneven transfer layer that causes brake judder.
The pads when cold are operating abrasively instead of adherently and they WILL remove the transfer layer and NOT redeposit it because they are not hot enough to do so.
The solution is to not get an uneven transfer layer - that causes judder. To achieve that you need to develop good braking habits or go to pads that require less heat to 'activate'. You need to practice longer, smoother braking events as you heat up and cool the brakes. Think of the pad as a paint brush when you are heating them up/bedding them in. Ease into and out of the pedal - don't jab at it -that type of thing. Once your brakes are in their ideal operating temp you can pound the crap out of them - but a slow session or cold snowy day may allow the temps to drop and you will know when it switches to abrasive - the grinding feel is obvious.
You condition sounds similar to when I ran an 87 crx with the Carbotech pads in a 25 hour event. under normal conditions, they worked well. But as night fell, the 1800lb crx couldn't use the brakes enough to keep them warm. The brakes began to transfer material unevenly and caused wicked vibrations.
I would hazard a guess that your uneven transfer started on your drive to the track. Temps might have been too cool during that drive for the compound, causing uneven transfer that only got worse through your track day.
I would suggest that if you are going to run race compound rotors and pads, to put them on and take them off at the track, and carry a stock set for the street. Then you won't have to worry about that. I would also say try Hawk as Warren suggests, or try Cobalts, what we use. We know both of those compounds to work with the RB rotors.
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
I think you are close Chris - what I think actually happens is as the pad falls under temperature and switches back to abrasive friction mode it will strip the transfer layer away from the rotor - potentially unevenly.
This is the opposite of applying the transfer layer unevenly which happens when a hot pad is held against a hot rotor without enough motion to 'paint it on there' evenly. The end result is the same though - an uneven transfer layer that causes brake judder.
The pads when cold are operating abrasively instead of adherently and they WILL remove the transfer layer and NOT redeposit it because they are not hot enough to do so.
The solution is to not get an uneven transfer layer - that causes judder. To achieve that you need to develop good braking habits or go to pads that require less heat to 'activate'. You need to practice longer, smoother braking events as you heat up and cool the brakes. Think of the pad as a paint brush when you are heating them up/bedding them in. Ease into and out of the pedal - don't jab at it -that type of thing. Once your brakes are in their ideal operating temp you can pound the crap out of them - but a slow session or cold snowy day may allow the temps to drop and you will know when it switches to abrasive - the grinding feel is obvious.
| rbahr | 02-24-2006 04:51 PM |
Any cocensus out there?
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Hi all,
I need to do brakes again for my 04 STi - last set were cryo-treated OEM rotrs. Now I need to replace them. I use full race pads, generally PF-97. R compound tires and generally BTH out of the car. I also need to do brake cooling - went through 2 sets of front wheel bearing last year - had my 3rd set installed at the end of the year.
So who makes a good 2 piece rotor that can be flogged?
Thanks
Ray
I need to do brakes again for my 04 STi - last set were cryo-treated OEM rotrs. Now I need to replace them. I use full race pads, generally PF-97. R compound tires and generally BTH out of the car. I also need to do brake cooling - went through 2 sets of front wheel bearing last year - had my 3rd set installed at the end of the year.
So who makes a good 2 piece rotor that can be flogged?
Thanks
Ray
| trhoppe | 02-24-2006 05:00 PM |
What you need are 05 bearings and not new rotors, etc etc etc.
PM me for more info ;)
-Tom
PM me for more info ;)
-Tom
| javid | 03-14-2006 04:44 PM |
I am still corresponding with the owner of RB.
Latest release is here:
[url]http://www.racingbrake.com/main/pad_warning.asp[/url]
Can some of our experienced road racers comment on the Hawk HP+ pad. I have always thought they were more of an intermediate pad. Am I wrong?
Latest release is here:
[url]http://www.racingbrake.com/main/pad_warning.asp[/url]
Can some of our experienced road racers comment on the Hawk HP+ pad. I have always thought they were more of an intermediate pad. Am I wrong?
| javid | 03-14-2006 04:46 PM |
Never mind, I went to the Hawk web page and learned that the HP+ is a street pad...
| javid | 03-14-2006 04:56 PM |
[QUOTE=goto_racing] I would also say try Hawk as Warren suggests, or try Cobalts, what we use. We know both of those compounds to work with the RB rotors.
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
Chris, what type cobalt pad are you using? Is it a full race compound?
If you want we can take this to PM.
Chris Lock[/QUOTE]
Chris, what type cobalt pad are you using? Is it a full race compound?
If you want we can take this to PM.
| trhoppe | 03-14-2006 05:09 PM |
It would seem that RB is the only company on the world to allow only the use of one brake pad "brand" with their rotors.
Also, it seems that their standard rotors are only for "street" use and you should use their "CGI" rotor for track use.
-Tom
Also, it seems that their standard rotors are only for "street" use and you should use their "CGI" rotor for track use.
-Tom
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-14-2006 09:56 PM |
[QUOTE=javid]BIGSKYWRX, what pads have you run on them? Did you run a big caliper upfront on the WRX?[/QUOTE]
Woops- thought I was subscribed :) I've run both Ferodo DS2500's (still run these day to day) and of late the DS3000. The 3000 is a very agressive (bite) pad, but seems to be rather easy on the rotors.
I wrote a review of the DBA 5000's in the part reviews section- cliff note version- they seem to hold up very well for track days.
DBA got by running one set of rotors at a 24 hour race (down under)- on a v7 STi.
I'm running FHI 4/2 pots (front ducting).
Woops- thought I was subscribed :) I've run both Ferodo DS2500's (still run these day to day) and of late the DS3000. The 3000 is a very agressive (bite) pad, but seems to be rather easy on the rotors.
I wrote a review of the DBA 5000's in the part reviews section- cliff note version- they seem to hold up very well for track days.
DBA got by running one set of rotors at a 24 hour race (down under)- on a v7 STi.
I'm running FHI 4/2 pots (front ducting).
| AndrewSS | 03-14-2006 10:18 PM |
how would you say you ought to bed in a full race pad, my first time on a race pad is coming up (pfc 01 pad) and I am planning on driving to the track on my hawk HPS's then swapping pads, then hopefully I can get there when the gates open, get setup then go bed in then come back and then go to the meetings and etc. Anyway what sort of bed in procedure would you recommend, what about getting them to temp, say if I have to bed in on track, of course you take it slooowww on the first lap or so to warm up, but that lap should I just do a few hard slow downs? I dunno I just wanna get full life from these and be as nice as possible as I can to the stock rotors. Anyway hopefully you guys can give me some advice ;)
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-14-2006 10:37 PM |
Follow the bed in procedures from the manufacturer (normally calls for several slow speed "stops" (not all the way stopped) and then a few more at a higher speed (again not coming to a complete stop).
I bed mine in the night before and drive to the track w/ them :)
I bed mine in the night before and drive to the track w/ them :)
| racekar | 03-15-2006 12:52 AM |
which car is the 06 wrx compatible with in terms of brake stuff the 300 zx??? what year? or is that pad only. would the rotor fit also?
| infantsam | 03-15-2006 12:59 AM |
Only the pads are the same- 90-96 300ZX either turbo or not. D460/D647 front - D461 rear are the 'generic' pad numbers.
There should be plenty of compounds available.
There should be plenty of compounds available.
| racekar | 03-15-2006 01:00 AM |
thanks!
| ChrisDP | 03-15-2006 01:33 AM |
[QUOTE=javid]Chris, what type cobalt pad are you using? Is it a full race compound?
If you want we can take this to PM.[/QUOTE]
I would give the Spec VR a shot... it's a full-race compound which coincidentally can also be driven to/from events without worrying about rear-ending a schoolbus full of nuns because your brakes don't do anything until they're 500 degrees.
If you want we can take this to PM.[/QUOTE]
I would give the Spec VR a shot... it's a full-race compound which coincidentally can also be driven to/from events without worrying about rear-ending a schoolbus full of nuns because your brakes don't do anything until they're 500 degrees.
| blue blurr | 03-15-2006 09:55 AM |
What are you opinions on this. I have pads lines and all that stuff with stock rotors. Should I upgrade rotors and spend 600 for the DBA ones, Or save that 600 and put it towards Brembo's or used stoptechs?
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-15-2006 10:19 AM |
Depends. If your hitting the track alot and overcooking your brakes then it makes perfect sense to step up to a BBK. If the oe brakes are doing their job and you just wnat to beef things up then look at uprated rotors. Also depending on what wheels your running and prefer to run- as obviously most BBK require bigger wheels and preclude running 16" ones.
| infantsam | 03-15-2006 10:34 AM |
[QUOTE=blue blurr]What are you opinions on this. I have pads lines and all that stuff with stock rotors. Should I upgrade rotors and spend 600 for the DBA ones, Or save that 600 and put it towards Brembo's or used stoptechs?[/QUOTE]
IMO you would be better off putting the money towards bigger brakes. No matter how much the rotors cost they are limited by the mass. 2 pc rotors are $600 - and I'll give the benefit of the doubt and suggest a 10-15% improvement - you can get an STi front kit for $1200 or so and far exceed that gain. You'll still need race pads but depending on your level can likely use a much less aggressive one which costs less and fades before temperatures start to degrade other components. Or you'll brake harder/better and start to use up that mass as well but in the end I would expect a lower overall cost as the components last longer and other parts are not subjected to as much abuse.
In simplified terms MASS = braking capacity. All other factors are second order when compared to this. So for your stock brakes your mass is lower thus you have to use a pad/fluid/rotor that can operate at these higher temperatures and live with the associated shorter replacement intervals. So you can 'pay me now' or 'pay me later'.
Edit to add - we are in the motorsports forum so I assume you are tracking your car with some regularity and looking for the next step to allow you to drive faster/brake harder. Hotter pads can take you pretty far - but other solutions may make sense for you.
IMO you would be better off putting the money towards bigger brakes. No matter how much the rotors cost they are limited by the mass. 2 pc rotors are $600 - and I'll give the benefit of the doubt and suggest a 10-15% improvement - you can get an STi front kit for $1200 or so and far exceed that gain. You'll still need race pads but depending on your level can likely use a much less aggressive one which costs less and fades before temperatures start to degrade other components. Or you'll brake harder/better and start to use up that mass as well but in the end I would expect a lower overall cost as the components last longer and other parts are not subjected to as much abuse.
In simplified terms MASS = braking capacity. All other factors are second order when compared to this. So for your stock brakes your mass is lower thus you have to use a pad/fluid/rotor that can operate at these higher temperatures and live with the associated shorter replacement intervals. So you can 'pay me now' or 'pay me later'.
Edit to add - we are in the motorsports forum so I assume you are tracking your car with some regularity and looking for the next step to allow you to drive faster/brake harder. Hotter pads can take you pretty far - but other solutions may make sense for you.
| trhoppe | 03-15-2006 11:25 AM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]IMO you would be better off putting the money towards bigger brakes. No matter how much the rotors cost they are limited by the mass. 2 pc rotors are $600 - and I'll give the benefit of the doubt and suggest a 10-15% improvement - you can get an STi front kit for $1200 or so and far exceed that gain. You'll still need race pads but depending on your level can likely use a much less aggressive one which costs less and fades before temperatures start to degrade other components. Or you'll brake harder/better and start to use up that mass as well but in the end I would expect a lower overall cost as the components last longer and other parts are not subjected to as much abuse.
In simplified terms MASS = braking capacity. All other factors are second order when compared to this. So for your stock brakes your mass is lower thus you have to use a pad/fluid/rotor that can operate at these higher temperatures and live with the associated shorter replacement intervals. So you can 'pay me now' or 'pay me later'.
Edit to add - we are in the motorsports forum so I assume you are tracking your car with some regularity and looking for the next step to allow you to drive faster/brake harder. Hotter pads can take you pretty far - but other solutions may make sense for you.[/QUOTE]
:golfclap:
Can we just copy & paste this and use it everywhere?
Its that quote "Better pads will get you pretty far, but other solutions may make sense" thats the best :) You can get by on stock rotors/better fluid/better pads, and that will be enough for most people. For *some* other solutions such as a BBK make sense. Gosh, I just want to repeat that over and over :lol:
-Tom
In simplified terms MASS = braking capacity. All other factors are second order when compared to this. So for your stock brakes your mass is lower thus you have to use a pad/fluid/rotor that can operate at these higher temperatures and live with the associated shorter replacement intervals. So you can 'pay me now' or 'pay me later'.
Edit to add - we are in the motorsports forum so I assume you are tracking your car with some regularity and looking for the next step to allow you to drive faster/brake harder. Hotter pads can take you pretty far - but other solutions may make sense for you.[/QUOTE]
:golfclap:
Can we just copy & paste this and use it everywhere?
Its that quote "Better pads will get you pretty far, but other solutions may make sense" thats the best :) You can get by on stock rotors/better fluid/better pads, and that will be enough for most people. For *some* other solutions such as a BBK make sense. Gosh, I just want to repeat that over and over :lol:
-Tom
| turboICE | 03-15-2006 11:32 AM |
I have used (to the point of crack through ~ 20 track days, multiple auto-x and well over ten thousand miles of not so nice street use) RB single piece CGI front rotors on the 04 STi with DS 2500 and DS 3000 pads. I have used Ferrodo in every case where a pad was available for application. I have never experienced uneven pad transfer (or build up) from the use of Ferrodo pads in any application. They have a long history of successful professional motorsports usage - they are not going to have any quality issues to disclude their usage. The pads have a wide plateau of consistent friction through their designed heat ranges - which also means you can get much higher rotor temperatures without fade - so you just keep braking and the temps will go higher. Pads that fade sooner will subject the rotors to less heat and cycling because you are forced to back off at their upper limits - you can keep going with Ferrodo. Other similar pads are going to similarly subject the rotors to higher than intended temperatures. Ferrodo's goal is that the pads work (stop the car) across as wide a range as possible not to protect rotors from heat - that is the car builder/modifier's role. They are in my experience however not as abrasive to rotors as similar performing compounds.
The STi will generate a ton of heat in the front rotors (actually all components), braking satisfaction is best achieved by proper cooling first and foremost.
The DS 3000 and RB CGI compound mate well and provide solid, consistent, fade free braking performance (Summit Point, Pocono double infield, Watkins Glen). The best description on first use is to think of doing an endo on a bike. You can scare the heck out a good braking Honda (and the corner worker) going into bus stop from 155+ mph to ~ 95 mph. Ultimately high heat cycles were the demise of the rotors - I was satisfied with the rotors. 20 heavy use track days were good all things considered.
Certainly heat contributes to issues with the hubs on the 04 but their primary fault is they are too small. The spindles and hubs are the same ones used on imprezas from the mid 90's. Whether through strength of the additional mass or the heat handling abilities of the additional mass - 05+ are going to have a longer life in performance usage than any gain from cooling on the 04.
BTW - the OEM rotors are much better than anyone gives them credit for even with race compound pads. It is no surprise when someone uses a replacement and concludes the OEM were better. It takes a lot to make a better rotor material and it isn't going to be something that costs substantially less than $300 a rotor.
Also the pads are definitely on the higher end of street pads - first use on track even after thousands of miles on the street, consider them fresh and bed them at 3/4 speed. I did this with my 06, and they performed much better than when I went out on my 04 treating them as bedded. It is highly unlikely that any high end performance pad will be properly bedded on a drive to the track - you just aren't going to get the heat necessary to bring the full process about. Standard street compounds take 600* continuously and slowly built up through all the components to bed - the higher performance compounds are going to take 750* or more and that is very hard to accomplish on the street.
The two most important modifications to the brakes are a good high temperature brake fluid and brake cooling, then the pads, and rotors only if you are willing to really pay for something better than OEM. It is going to take a really top end driver to justify (with track times) a BBK on an STi in HPDE and sprint conditions. Anyone doing longer than 3 hour enduros have the skill sets available to their effort not to be looking for information on a marque forum.
This is all in my observation, I am not an engineer, though I have stayed at Holiday Inns on occasion.
The STi will generate a ton of heat in the front rotors (actually all components), braking satisfaction is best achieved by proper cooling first and foremost.
The DS 3000 and RB CGI compound mate well and provide solid, consistent, fade free braking performance (Summit Point, Pocono double infield, Watkins Glen). The best description on first use is to think of doing an endo on a bike. You can scare the heck out a good braking Honda (and the corner worker) going into bus stop from 155+ mph to ~ 95 mph. Ultimately high heat cycles were the demise of the rotors - I was satisfied with the rotors. 20 heavy use track days were good all things considered.
Certainly heat contributes to issues with the hubs on the 04 but their primary fault is they are too small. The spindles and hubs are the same ones used on imprezas from the mid 90's. Whether through strength of the additional mass or the heat handling abilities of the additional mass - 05+ are going to have a longer life in performance usage than any gain from cooling on the 04.
BTW - the OEM rotors are much better than anyone gives them credit for even with race compound pads. It is no surprise when someone uses a replacement and concludes the OEM were better. It takes a lot to make a better rotor material and it isn't going to be something that costs substantially less than $300 a rotor.
Also the pads are definitely on the higher end of street pads - first use on track even after thousands of miles on the street, consider them fresh and bed them at 3/4 speed. I did this with my 06, and they performed much better than when I went out on my 04 treating them as bedded. It is highly unlikely that any high end performance pad will be properly bedded on a drive to the track - you just aren't going to get the heat necessary to bring the full process about. Standard street compounds take 600* continuously and slowly built up through all the components to bed - the higher performance compounds are going to take 750* or more and that is very hard to accomplish on the street.
The two most important modifications to the brakes are a good high temperature brake fluid and brake cooling, then the pads, and rotors only if you are willing to really pay for something better than OEM. It is going to take a really top end driver to justify (with track times) a BBK on an STi in HPDE and sprint conditions. Anyone doing longer than 3 hour enduros have the skill sets available to their effort not to be looking for information on a marque forum.
This is all in my observation, I am not an engineer, though I have stayed at Holiday Inns on occasion.
| rbahr | 03-15-2006 11:46 AM |
Hi All,
I am going through this right now myself! The options seem limited.
I want a GOOD 2 piece floating rotor that will fit my existing caliper - just got off the phone with Brembo and they have thought about it but are limited by the deal they made with Subaru - which also explains why a rebuild kit is so expensive. Subaru gets to be the ONLY reseller of certain parts including the OEM rotors, rebuild kits...
There are a lot of products that are nice and pretty but I am looking for something that can handle repeated 90 min track sessions with full race pads, R compound tires and a nut behind the wheel without a problem. The OEM rotors are OK, cooling is a big problem, cost is a problem - my best price has been $321 per but they last about half a season, so maybe that is what I do with cooling. I cryo-treated my last set and I think that helped.
The hassel factor has me thinking that the Grand Turrismo or an Alcon package is the way to go but my car prep budget is already in the $4K range this year so I don't think this is what I want to do.
Ray
I am going through this right now myself! The options seem limited.
I want a GOOD 2 piece floating rotor that will fit my existing caliper - just got off the phone with Brembo and they have thought about it but are limited by the deal they made with Subaru - which also explains why a rebuild kit is so expensive. Subaru gets to be the ONLY reseller of certain parts including the OEM rotors, rebuild kits...
There are a lot of products that are nice and pretty but I am looking for something that can handle repeated 90 min track sessions with full race pads, R compound tires and a nut behind the wheel without a problem. The OEM rotors are OK, cooling is a big problem, cost is a problem - my best price has been $321 per but they last about half a season, so maybe that is what I do with cooling. I cryo-treated my last set and I think that helped.
The hassel factor has me thinking that the Grand Turrismo or an Alcon package is the way to go but my car prep budget is already in the $4K range this year so I don't think this is what I want to do.
Ray
| infantsam | 03-15-2006 11:57 AM |
[QUOTE=rbahr]Hi All,
There are a lot of products that are nice and pretty but I am looking for something that can handle repeated 90 min track sessions with full race pads, R compound tires and a nut behind the wheel without a problem. The OEM rotors are OK, cooling is a problem, cost is a problem - my best price has been $321 per but they last about half a season.
The hassel factor has me thinking that the Grand Turrismo or an Alcon package is the way to go but my car prep budget is already in the $4K range this year... I will be doing a brake cooling project project before I get to the track this year...
Ray[/QUOTE]
You are asking for something that is really just not possible from a rotor upgrade. Remember the simplified rule: mass x deacceleration rate (energy in) = (cannot exceed) capacity + rejection rate (energy out).
If you do exceed this then component life suffers. You will only incrementally improve that unless you significantly increase the cooling rate. That means the increase from brake ducting should far exceed the benefits of 'cooler' rotors.
There are a lot of products that are nice and pretty but I am looking for something that can handle repeated 90 min track sessions with full race pads, R compound tires and a nut behind the wheel without a problem. The OEM rotors are OK, cooling is a problem, cost is a problem - my best price has been $321 per but they last about half a season.
The hassel factor has me thinking that the Grand Turrismo or an Alcon package is the way to go but my car prep budget is already in the $4K range this year... I will be doing a brake cooling project project before I get to the track this year...
Ray[/QUOTE]
You are asking for something that is really just not possible from a rotor upgrade. Remember the simplified rule: mass x deacceleration rate (energy in) = (cannot exceed) capacity + rejection rate (energy out).
If you do exceed this then component life suffers. You will only incrementally improve that unless you significantly increase the cooling rate. That means the increase from brake ducting should far exceed the benefits of 'cooler' rotors.
| rbahr | 03-15-2006 12:05 PM |
Hi Infansam,
Not entirely sure what you meant, but I am saying that currently my biggest problem is heat not the size of the rotor - although there is a relationship. Since all that kenitic energy is converted to heat, and the thermal mass is whatever, I can increase the effenciency by pro-actively removing some of that heat without changing the thermal mass. A 2 piece floating rotor will reduce the rotating mass as well as give me better cooling opportunities.
I am in the process of upgrading the front knuckle/wheel bearing to the 05 spec - having gone through 2.5 sets last summer... (Thanks Tom - got the parts) this will also help.
Ray
Not entirely sure what you meant, but I am saying that currently my biggest problem is heat not the size of the rotor - although there is a relationship. Since all that kenitic energy is converted to heat, and the thermal mass is whatever, I can increase the effenciency by pro-actively removing some of that heat without changing the thermal mass. A 2 piece floating rotor will reduce the rotating mass as well as give me better cooling opportunities.
I am in the process of upgrading the front knuckle/wheel bearing to the 05 spec - having gone through 2.5 sets last summer... (Thanks Tom - got the parts) this will also help.
Ray
| Jon Bogert | 03-15-2006 12:24 PM |
[quote]In simplified terms MASS = braking capacity. All other factors are second order when compared to this.[/quote]No way! You mean all those vendors with lightweight tinfoil rotors that save 20lbs of unsprung weight are selling crap? Say it ain't so! :lol:
| rbahr | 03-15-2006 12:40 PM |
Hi All,
In terms of "MASS = braking capacity" This is not quite accurate. It is the operating range in temperature that matters. In our case (average brake system) more mass looks better only because the thermal mass is greater, allowing more calories to be distributed amongst that mass because our brakes a crap compared to say an F1 car. A slightly (but not much) better example are the new ceramic brake systems out there - Porsche etc. These still have problems but the operating range is much greater than what we can tolerate...
The other problems with the aftermarket rotors includes things like consistency in the casting, materials used, design of the vanes ... which seems secondary to many folks as long as their zinc plated, gold painted rotors shine in the dark...
I guess I don't think much of a lot of the aftermarket :-)
Ray
In terms of "MASS = braking capacity" This is not quite accurate. It is the operating range in temperature that matters. In our case (average brake system) more mass looks better only because the thermal mass is greater, allowing more calories to be distributed amongst that mass because our brakes a crap compared to say an F1 car. A slightly (but not much) better example are the new ceramic brake systems out there - Porsche etc. These still have problems but the operating range is much greater than what we can tolerate...
The other problems with the aftermarket rotors includes things like consistency in the casting, materials used, design of the vanes ... which seems secondary to many folks as long as their zinc plated, gold painted rotors shine in the dark...
I guess I don't think much of a lot of the aftermarket :-)
Ray
| infantsam | 03-15-2006 12:44 PM |
[QUOTE=rbahr]Hi Infansam,
Not entirely sure what you meant, but I am saying that currently my biggest problem is heat not the size of the rotor - although there is a relationship. Since all that kenitic energy is converted to heat, and the thermal mass is whatever, I can increase the effenciency by pro-actively removing some of that heat without changing the thermal mass. A 2 piece floating rotor will reduce the rotating mass as well as give me better cooling opportunities.
I am in the process of upgrading the front knuckle/wheel bearing to the 05 spec - having gone through 2.5 sets last summer... (Thanks Tom - got the parts) this will also help.
Ray[/QUOTE]
You are right and wrong at the same time. Yes you will get more capacity by increased cooling that results from a better flowing rotor. But HOW MUCH?? And where is the data btw?
Given similar geometry I doubt you will increase capacity by more than say 10-15% or so - and that is good btw but maybe unlikely to significantly affect your performance i.e. lower rotor temps. I don't know how far past the OEM setup you are.
Brake ducts on the other hand are KNOWN to reduce rotor temps by up to a couple hundred degrees - Myles has data on this iirc. That you will surely observe.
So ideally you'll get brake ducts to stave off buying a BBK - and 2 pc rotors to reduce hub issues and coning problems etc. associated w/ 1 piece rotors.
Not entirely sure what you meant, but I am saying that currently my biggest problem is heat not the size of the rotor - although there is a relationship. Since all that kenitic energy is converted to heat, and the thermal mass is whatever, I can increase the effenciency by pro-actively removing some of that heat without changing the thermal mass. A 2 piece floating rotor will reduce the rotating mass as well as give me better cooling opportunities.
I am in the process of upgrading the front knuckle/wheel bearing to the 05 spec - having gone through 2.5 sets last summer... (Thanks Tom - got the parts) this will also help.
Ray[/QUOTE]
You are right and wrong at the same time. Yes you will get more capacity by increased cooling that results from a better flowing rotor. But HOW MUCH?? And where is the data btw?
Given similar geometry I doubt you will increase capacity by more than say 10-15% or so - and that is good btw but maybe unlikely to significantly affect your performance i.e. lower rotor temps. I don't know how far past the OEM setup you are.
Brake ducts on the other hand are KNOWN to reduce rotor temps by up to a couple hundred degrees - Myles has data on this iirc. That you will surely observe.
So ideally you'll get brake ducts to stave off buying a BBK - and 2 pc rotors to reduce hub issues and coning problems etc. associated w/ 1 piece rotors.
| WillysPU | 03-15-2006 12:45 PM |
While I don't professionally race, I track my '03 wrx at laguna seca and sears pt pretty often and run low 1:50's at ls and and mid 1:50's at sear pt. I have have great success with using the twr 4pot/2pot system and their 2piece rotors with carbotech bobcats for street and xp 8's for track with r-compound tires.
The twr offer quiet street performance, great track performance and the similar materials of the carbotech pads reduce the need for pad beding when you make the switch. They offer rotors in many custom sizes to fit wrx's and sti's.
Their website sucks but they are great guys to work with: [url="http://www.twrracing.com/"]www.twrracing.com[/url]
The twr offer quiet street performance, great track performance and the similar materials of the carbotech pads reduce the need for pad beding when you make the switch. They offer rotors in many custom sizes to fit wrx's and sti's.
Their website sucks but they are great guys to work with: [url="http://www.twrracing.com/"]www.twrracing.com[/url]
| rbahr | 03-15-2006 12:48 PM |
Hi Infantsam,
We are in violent agreement - I mentioned brake ducts as being important as well as on my list of projects, I am also saying that I can get an additional bump with a differently designed rotor, and since I need new rotors I am looking for some...
Ray
We are in violent agreement - I mentioned brake ducts as being important as well as on my list of projects, I am also saying that I can get an additional bump with a differently designed rotor, and since I need new rotors I am looking for some...
Ray
| rbahr | 03-15-2006 12:50 PM |
An FYI - AFAIK (also an opportunity to use far to many acronyms) Hawk/PFC makes the Carbotech pad material.
| javid | 03-15-2006 02:56 PM |
[QUOTE=rbahr]An FYI - AFAIK (also an opportunity to use far to many acronyms) Hawk/PFC makes the Carbotech pad material.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Holy jebus, if that is true....
Added the release by RB to the brake forum.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13053929#post13053929[/url]
Any rotor companies that want a big sign on the side of a 1 Lap car?
I will use the OEM rotors to dominate those V8s if I need to....
:lol: Holy jebus, if that is true....
Added the release by RB to the brake forum.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13053929#post13053929[/url]
Any rotor companies that want a big sign on the side of a 1 Lap car?
I will use the OEM rotors to dominate those V8s if I need to....
| ChrisDP | 03-15-2006 03:43 PM |
[QUOTE=rbahr]An FYI - AFAIK (also an opportunity to use far to many acronyms) Hawk/PFC makes the Carbotech pad material.[/QUOTE]
That would be the first time I've heard that, and that doesn't seem terribly likely given the CT construction and pad material behavior. Perhaps CarbotechMatt will be along shortly to clarify...
That would be the first time I've heard that, and that doesn't seem terribly likely given the CT construction and pad material behavior. Perhaps CarbotechMatt will be along shortly to clarify...
| infantsam | 03-15-2006 06:35 PM |
yeah - i didn't reply but I'd think they (Ctech) would at some point
| rbahr | 03-15-2006 11:48 PM |
It could easily be an urban legand, this is 3rd hand. PFC makes stuff under a variety of brands...
Ray
Ray
| Nivek-CA | 03-19-2006 05:31 PM |
Here is the video covering the release of the STI rotors by the Brakeman:
[url]http://videos.hspn.com/?videoid=12[/url]
[url]http://videos.hspn.com/?videoid=12[/url]
| Patrick Olsen | 03-19-2006 09:35 PM |
Based on talking to the Carbotech guys on the phone (both Larry and Matt) I'm pretty confident they make their own stuff in house.
| WillysPU | 03-19-2006 10:05 PM |
Looks like twr racing has a special on the 2004 sti full floating rotors, $469/pr.
[url="http://www.twrracing.com/specials.html"]http://www.twrracing.com/specials.html[/url]
I have their rotors on my wrx with over 25kmiles and lots of track days, so far very little wear.
[url="http://www.twrracing.com/specials.html"]http://www.twrracing.com/specials.html[/url]
I have their rotors on my wrx with over 25kmiles and lots of track days, so far very little wear.
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