| Shik | 03-07-2003 12:22 PM |
Salary Cap in WRC..Sort of
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Just saw this and didn't see it mentioned anywhere yet(sorry if it was)...
From Rally-Live:
[i]New rules may be introduced in the World Rally Championship, adding even more complexity to the existing system. These rules should not please Carlos Sainz, winner of the Rally of Turkey or Harri Rovanper�, the first leader of the Turkish event.
The FIA Commission would require all the teams who have three drivers to hire a third driver that has never won a World Rally event. If this rule becomes effective, it will certainly not make the French teams Peugeot and Citro�n too happy. With Colin McRae, Carlos Sainz and S�bastien Loeb at Citro�n and Marcus Gronh�lm, Richard Burns, Harri Rovanper� and Gilles Panizzi at Peugeot, all of these drivers have already won a World Rally event.
The objective of this new rule is to prevent the teams with the biggest budgets to hire the best drivers. If this rule is approved by the Commission, it should help reduce costs. It would mean that a team like Peugeot may have to pay a driver like Jusso Pykalisto or C�dric Robert to take place as a third driver.[/i]
Opinions?
-Matt
W&L Subaru
[SIZE=1][i]2nd Annual East Coast Subaru Shootout[/i][/SIZE]
From Rally-Live:
[i]New rules may be introduced in the World Rally Championship, adding even more complexity to the existing system. These rules should not please Carlos Sainz, winner of the Rally of Turkey or Harri Rovanper�, the first leader of the Turkish event.
The FIA Commission would require all the teams who have three drivers to hire a third driver that has never won a World Rally event. If this rule becomes effective, it will certainly not make the French teams Peugeot and Citro�n too happy. With Colin McRae, Carlos Sainz and S�bastien Loeb at Citro�n and Marcus Gronh�lm, Richard Burns, Harri Rovanper� and Gilles Panizzi at Peugeot, all of these drivers have already won a World Rally event.
The objective of this new rule is to prevent the teams with the biggest budgets to hire the best drivers. If this rule is approved by the Commission, it should help reduce costs. It would mean that a team like Peugeot may have to pay a driver like Jusso Pykalisto or C�dric Robert to take place as a third driver.[/i]
Opinions?
-Matt
W&L Subaru
[SIZE=1][i]2nd Annual East Coast Subaru Shootout[/i][/SIZE]
| grimlock | 03-07-2003 12:31 PM |
Take that, Frenchies!
:disco: :disco: :disco:
:disco: :disco: :disco:
| Jon Bogert | 03-07-2003 12:46 PM |
I don't like the sound of that.
One thing that's cool about rallying is that you get to see the "legends" like Sainz driving side by side with the hot newcomers. It adds a great dimension for the fans, and it also good for the teams. If I were Loeb I'd be incredibly grateful to have two former world champions to learn from.
The old guys will only be around as long as they're at least somewhat competitive, so why push them out?
One thing that's cool about rallying is that you get to see the "legends" like Sainz driving side by side with the hot newcomers. It adds a great dimension for the fans, and it also good for the teams. If I were Loeb I'd be incredibly grateful to have two former world champions to learn from.
The old guys will only be around as long as they're at least somewhat competitive, so why push them out?
| prost893 | 03-07-2003 01:44 PM |
I like the idea of the proposal but I think the limit should be three, not two. The reason is because there are so few works teams in the WRC class now. I would not want to see the field reduced any more. Ther are only like 14 works cars now, right? I also don't see this rule as incentive to start new teams just to field past winning drivers. I also don't want to see teams having to hire lesser drivers just to fill seats.
| elgorey | 03-07-2003 01:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]I don't like the sound of that.
One thing that's cool about rallying is that you get to see the "legends" like Sainz driving side by side with the hot newcomers. It adds a great dimension for the fans, and it also good for the teams. If I were Loeb I'd be incredibly grateful to have two former world champions to learn from.
The old guys will only be around as long as they're at least somewhat competitive, so why push them out? [/B][/QUOTE]
agreed. This is less "salary cap" and more "Out with the old, in with the new" :thumbdown: :(
[B]I don't like the sound of that.
One thing that's cool about rallying is that you get to see the "legends" like Sainz driving side by side with the hot newcomers. It adds a great dimension for the fans, and it also good for the teams. If I were Loeb I'd be incredibly grateful to have two former world champions to learn from.
The old guys will only be around as long as they're at least somewhat competitive, so why push them out? [/B][/QUOTE]
agreed. This is less "salary cap" and more "Out with the old, in with the new" :thumbdown: :(
| Tensen | 03-07-2003 02:49 PM |
dumb
| goneskiian | 03-07-2003 04:59 PM |
[QUOTE]This is less "salary cap" and more "Out with the old, in with the new" :thumbdown: [/QUOTE]
I don't know. I think it's more the WRC trying to spread the wealth. Maybe they're trying to get some of these other drivers onto some of the lesser teams like Hyundia and Skoda. Then again maybe not. These teams already have drivers that have won WRC events as well. :o :D
Nevermind.
It'd be great if there were enough manufacturers at the Pug, Cit, Ford, Sub level to spread these guys thinner so this would work.
-Ian
I don't know. I think it's more the WRC trying to spread the wealth. Maybe they're trying to get some of these other drivers onto some of the lesser teams like Hyundia and Skoda. Then again maybe not. These teams already have drivers that have won WRC events as well. :o :D
Nevermind.
It'd be great if there were enough manufacturers at the Pug, Cit, Ford, Sub level to spread these guys thinner so this would work.
-Ian
| driggity | 03-07-2003 05:26 PM |
So what happens if you have 2 drivers who have won and 1 who hasn't and then the third guy wins? Do you have to fire him and get a new 3rd driver to replace him? :confused: Or am I just reading this completely wrong?
| AndyRoo | 03-07-2003 07:22 PM |
being fired cause you won would suck. thumbs down.
| Xio | 03-07-2003 08:23 PM |
Hmmm, let's think about this a second.
The top drivers will fill the "already-won-an-event" seats. These guys should remain fairly static, barring the odd team change or retirement.
Newcomers will have a shot at the "newbie seats". This is good, it fosters competition, and allows rookies the chance to drive alongside the best.
But what about the middle? The way I see it, the problem is that the "experienced but not top star" guys, once having won an event, would find it hard or impossible to secure an "already-won-event" slot and they would also be banned from the "newbie seats". Talk about a rock and a hard place.
The top drivers will fill the "already-won-an-event" seats. These guys should remain fairly static, barring the odd team change or retirement.
Newcomers will have a shot at the "newbie seats". This is good, it fosters competition, and allows rookies the chance to drive alongside the best.
But what about the middle? The way I see it, the problem is that the "experienced but not top star" guys, once having won an event, would find it hard or impossible to secure an "already-won-event" slot and they would also be banned from the "newbie seats". Talk about a rock and a hard place.
| MNbiker | 03-07-2003 08:39 PM |
This really sounds like a stupid idea...:rolleyes:
What's supposed to happen, once the new drivers have won an event? hmmm....lose and keep your job - win and lose it. duhhh!:p
-Steve
What's supposed to happen, once the new drivers have won an event? hmmm....lose and keep your job - win and lose it. duhhh!:p
-Steve
| Kitsune | 03-07-2003 08:55 PM |
There should not be any salary caps or penalties for teams that put the most effort into winning. What the hell is this Nascar? Why don't they just throw a yellow flag for debris on the stage maybe that'll help make the racing closer. WRC as the same as F1 its the highest level of the sport, if a team wants to be competative then they should step up their development programs and make a damn effort to be competative. As far as driver's that have never won a rally the idea is idiotic. Why should any team be forced to hire a driver they don't want to hire? The best drivers deserve to be in the best cars. That is what they have worked for their whole damn life is'nt it. As much as I dislike Citreon or Ferrari being so fast (Puegot not big fan of either but they did make some killer cars in the 80s), it can not be taken away from them that they are putting the best car out there. Ford, Subaru, Skoda and Hyundai should invest more in the sport if they want to be competative. All of them except Skoda should have enough capital to equal if not surpass the french manufactures. I'd rather see those little french cars get beat because the other team earned it, not because some bull**** FIA rules made it easier for them.
| dch | 03-08-2003 10:41 AM |
Seems to me if you were the 3rd newbie guy and you were about to win an event, you'd be well rewarded to find some way to lose just enough time to come in 2nd. [i]Don't[/i] win the race, [i]do[/i] keep your job. A guy could make a good career out of being next best if his ego didn't get in the way, eh?
Cheers,
-Doug
P.S. - So could a girl
Cheers,
-Doug
P.S. - So could a girl
| ANZAC_1915 | 03-08-2003 11:47 AM |
How about: 3rd driver must not have won more than 10 WRC events.
| Thug | 03-08-2003 01:57 PM |
This is dumb. I can see no more than two drivers who have won a World Rally [b]Championship[/b], but not no more than two who have won a single event. You have events like Safari and Turkey where sometimes the winner is just the guy who's car didnt happen to break. That certainly doesnt make him a #1 or even a #2 driver. And what if you're a manufacturer who just signed three guys to 2 year contracts, and in the first year the guy who hasnt won an event wins one. Do you have get rid of the third guy before the next season starts? Even though he's got a contract for another year. This proposed rule is garbage.
| aspera | 03-08-2003 11:32 PM |
I just re-read the first post. It seems to only apply to teams who have 3 drivers. Teams with less than 3 drivers can do what they like.
Big budget teams wouldn't be allowed to hoard all of the top drivers. If Peugeot can hire Marcus Gronh�lm, Richard Burns, Harri Rovanper� and Gilles Panizzi, then teams like Skoda might not be competitive even if they had a great car.
I'm not sure that I agree with the proposed rule, but I think I see its goal. I mean, taken to the extreme, imagine if you could hire ALL of the top drivers and field a car like the current Octavia. You might win the manufacturer's title without even having the best car. You wouldn't even have to make the drivers really drive. All they really have to do is NOT drive for your competition.
Add up all of the drivers of the French teams (same company really) and compare them to the rest of the drivers. The French have nearly monopolized the WRC. If Ford decided to field a second team under the Mercury nameplate, and bought up all of the top drivers, everyone would cry foul.
Big budget teams wouldn't be allowed to hoard all of the top drivers. If Peugeot can hire Marcus Gronh�lm, Richard Burns, Harri Rovanper� and Gilles Panizzi, then teams like Skoda might not be competitive even if they had a great car.
I'm not sure that I agree with the proposed rule, but I think I see its goal. I mean, taken to the extreme, imagine if you could hire ALL of the top drivers and field a car like the current Octavia. You might win the manufacturer's title without even having the best car. You wouldn't even have to make the drivers really drive. All they really have to do is NOT drive for your competition.
Add up all of the drivers of the French teams (same company really) and compare them to the rest of the drivers. The French have nearly monopolized the WRC. If Ford decided to field a second team under the Mercury nameplate, and bought up all of the top drivers, everyone would cry foul.
| Kitsune | 03-08-2003 11:50 PM |
The problem with the FIA is that it has always been slanted towards french teams, cars and drivers. You can look back at the Mini being banned from Monte Carlo, or the numerous Lemans instances as when FIA creating a class for Le Mans that was supposed to benefit smaller french powered cars...then Porsche came out and beat them at their own game. Hell look back at Monte last year, Loeb should have been banned on the spot from the rally for changing tires as the rules state but instead they let him slide until the very end of the race. The Pug supposedly is'nt even a legal car in it's street incarnation (too short I think correct me if I am wrong?) but its allowed to run. WRC does'nt need new rules, it needs an ubias sanctioning body. No amount of rule play is going to solve that and companys like Ford and Subaru just don't want to step up their development for whatever number of reasons.
| aspera | 03-09-2003 12:48 AM |
I didn't really want to be French bashing, but I guess it makes a little sense. Peugeot is French. Citroen is French. The FIA is French. If you have a French driver in a rally in France, then there might be problems.
Any problems would pale in comparison to what some U.S. sanctioning bodies do. Can you imagine Toyota or Hyundai trying to race in Winston Cup?:) Surely they have cars that are as close to "stock" cars as a Ford Taurus is. All they need is a V8 engine. Even if they had all of the hardware to compete, new rules would surely come into being.
Anyway, shouldn't there be a rule about how many drivers a company (not just a brand) can hire? PSA has seven, right? Or are the Peugeot Sport and Citroen Sport teams considered seperate because they are teams? Could Prodrive, for instance, run a team of Peugeots?
Any problems would pale in comparison to what some U.S. sanctioning bodies do. Can you imagine Toyota or Hyundai trying to race in Winston Cup?:) Surely they have cars that are as close to "stock" cars as a Ford Taurus is. All they need is a V8 engine. Even if they had all of the hardware to compete, new rules would surely come into being.
Anyway, shouldn't there be a rule about how many drivers a company (not just a brand) can hire? PSA has seven, right? Or are the Peugeot Sport and Citroen Sport teams considered seperate because they are teams? Could Prodrive, for instance, run a team of Peugeots?
| fengshui-fu | 03-09-2003 09:39 AM |
They want better competition? Do what JGTC does. Add weight to the car each time you win a WRC event. This way, the battle for the podium will be a true battle and it will make it more difficult to win each time you come in 1st. Salary caps and the like are stupid since most of the teams are all ready doing what FIA proposes. Look at Ford with their young team, Subaru also has old talent with an up and coming star. And you can argue Loeb is the newbie driver for the Citreon team with the other two representing experience. I think FIA should look to different ways to get more support for WRC. Maybe lower some of the requirements to get more manufacturers involved with lower WRC budgets.
chris
chris
| STX_REX | 03-10-2003 04:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by aspera [/i]
[B]
Any problems would pale in comparison to what some U.S. sanctioning bodies do. Can you imagine Toyota or Hyundai trying to race in Winston Cup?:) Surely they have cars that are as close to "stock" cars as a Ford Taurus is. All they need is a V8 engine. Even if they had all of the hardware to compete, new rules would surely come into being.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think Toyota is going to run a Tacoma in the craftsman truck series this year or next.:eek:
[B]
Any problems would pale in comparison to what some U.S. sanctioning bodies do. Can you imagine Toyota or Hyundai trying to race in Winston Cup?:) Surely they have cars that are as close to "stock" cars as a Ford Taurus is. All they need is a V8 engine. Even if they had all of the hardware to compete, new rules would surely come into being.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I think Toyota is going to run a Tacoma in the craftsman truck series this year or next.:eek:
| aspera | 03-10-2003 11:31 PM |
I hope Toyota cleans their hillbilly clocks.:)
Couldn't the restrictor size be decreased instead of adding weight? That seems a little safer. I'd hate to see some of the younger drivers slide off of a cliff because the added weight pushed them to the outside of a corner more than they expected.
Couldn't the restrictor size be decreased instead of adding weight? That seems a little safer. I'd hate to see some of the younger drivers slide off of a cliff because the added weight pushed them to the outside of a corner more than they expected.
| DJ 9iron | 03-11-2003 02:02 AM |
Did anyone catch the tidbit on making the tires with LESS traction?
I yelled a big Hell Yeah when I heard that!!
I miss it when the cars would drift around corners and slip and slide here and there. That was great. Now it's pull hand-brake to a controlled decel... bah
That would spark some good competition.:devil: :D
I yelled a big Hell Yeah when I heard that!!
I miss it when the cars would drift around corners and slip and slide here and there. That was great. Now it's pull hand-brake to a controlled decel... bah
That would spark some good competition.:devil: :D
| Rebellion | 03-11-2003 08:46 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by STX_REX [/i]
[B]
I think Toyota is going to run a Tacoma in the craftsman truck series this year or next.:eek: [/B][/QUOTE]
Toyota will be running truck series next season... and they've mentioned the possibility of running Winston Cup in the next 3-4 years.
[B]
I think Toyota is going to run a Tacoma in the craftsman truck series this year or next.:eek: [/B][/QUOTE]
Toyota will be running truck series next season... and they've mentioned the possibility of running Winston Cup in the next 3-4 years.
| aspera | 03-11-2003 10:03 PM |
I'd like to see Nissan follow them. Nissan is going after the full-sized truck market too.
| 10th Warrior | 03-12-2003 11:32 AM |
[QUOTE]Add weight to the car each time you win a WRC event[/QUOTE]
this is a World Championship. there should be no handicap for winning. the best driver with the best car with the best luck at a particular rally is going to win. everyone is plays by the same rules (except toyota ;) ).
[QUOTE]Did anyone catch the tidbit on making the tires with LESS traction?[/QUOTE]
yeah, that worked so well in F1 :lol: they were slower for what, 2 seasons :lol:
personally, if they really want to restrict this, i think they should return to the old 2 car team rules. or even go a step beyond nominations and restrict works teams to 2 drivers and 2 drivers only. no more specialists. no more 4 cars per team.
this is a World Championship. there should be no handicap for winning. the best driver with the best car with the best luck at a particular rally is going to win. everyone is plays by the same rules (except toyota ;) ).
[QUOTE]Did anyone catch the tidbit on making the tires with LESS traction?[/QUOTE]
yeah, that worked so well in F1 :lol: they were slower for what, 2 seasons :lol:
personally, if they really want to restrict this, i think they should return to the old 2 car team rules. or even go a step beyond nominations and restrict works teams to 2 drivers and 2 drivers only. no more specialists. no more 4 cars per team.
| DJ 9iron | 03-12-2003 12:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 10th Warrior [/i]
[B]
personally, if they really want to restrict this, i think they should return to the old 2 car team rules. or even go a step beyond nominations and restrict works teams to 2 drivers and 2 drivers only. no more specialists. no more 4 cars per team. [/B][/QUOTE]
I like that. The extra drivers will just have to spawn new teams. That would be cool.
[B]
personally, if they really want to restrict this, i think they should return to the old 2 car team rules. or even go a step beyond nominations and restrict works teams to 2 drivers and 2 drivers only. no more specialists. no more 4 cars per team. [/B][/QUOTE]
I like that. The extra drivers will just have to spawn new teams. That would be cool.
| Rebellion | 03-12-2003 12:19 PM |
without the factory sponsorships... I don't see the "misplaced" drivers starting up their own teams. WRC is just too expensive to run w/o factory backing. It'd be cool if it was possible though.
| DJ 9iron | 03-12-2003 12:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rebellion [/i]
[B]without the factory sponsorships... I don't see the "misplaced" drivers starting up their own teams. WRC is just too expensive to run w/o factory backing. It'd be cool if it was possible though. [/B][/QUOTE]
you wouldn't really need factory backing, maybe. But get some cool sponsors, maybe a team Pirelli? i don't know. it seems possible though. then push the factory teams harder.
[B]without the factory sponsorships... I don't see the "misplaced" drivers starting up their own teams. WRC is just too expensive to run w/o factory backing. It'd be cool if it was possible though. [/B][/QUOTE]
you wouldn't really need factory backing, maybe. But get some cool sponsors, maybe a team Pirelli? i don't know. it seems possible though. then push the factory teams harder.
| 10th Warrior | 03-12-2003 01:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Rebellion [/i]
[B]without the factory sponsorships... I don't see the "misplaced" drivers starting up their own teams. WRC is just too expensive to run w/o factory backing. It'd be cool if it was possible though. [/B][/QUOTE]
there are lots of privateers who run at least a limited schedule with ex-works cars. plus there are always other championships as well as the Production Championship, and Super 1600 for the kids ;)
[B]without the factory sponsorships... I don't see the "misplaced" drivers starting up their own teams. WRC is just too expensive to run w/o factory backing. It'd be cool if it was possible though. [/B][/QUOTE]
there are lots of privateers who run at least a limited schedule with ex-works cars. plus there are always other championships as well as the Production Championship, and Super 1600 for the kids ;)
| Rebellion | 03-12-2003 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 10th Warrior [/i]
[B]
there are lots of privateers who run at least a limited schedule with ex-works cars. plus there are always other championships as well as the Production Championship, and Super 1600 for the kids ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah but... when was the last time a privateer placed in the top 6? top 3? won a race? If we could get fully funded privateer teams that 1. could run a whole season 2. be competitive in points ... it'd rock. (I'm assuming WRC manufacturs points are the same as US Prorally w/ the manufacturer getting points from privateers), But I don't see it being financially possible. And how many US people follow the lower ranks? They're not televised or anything, so it'd basically be like all these drivers that are older "stars" would be pushed out of the WRC series and kind of disappear (at least to us US peeps).
[B]
there are lots of privateers who run at least a limited schedule with ex-works cars. plus there are always other championships as well as the Production Championship, and Super 1600 for the kids ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah but... when was the last time a privateer placed in the top 6? top 3? won a race? If we could get fully funded privateer teams that 1. could run a whole season 2. be competitive in points ... it'd rock. (I'm assuming WRC manufacturs points are the same as US Prorally w/ the manufacturer getting points from privateers), But I don't see it being financially possible. And how many US people follow the lower ranks? They're not televised or anything, so it'd basically be like all these drivers that are older "stars" would be pushed out of the WRC series and kind of disappear (at least to us US peeps).
| 10th Warrior | 03-12-2003 03:20 PM |
only the top 2 finishing works cars (per manufacturer of course) score points.
guess what though, regardless of your ability to find/not find coverage, there are still alot of very competitive series elsewhere. there are probably more people in the world who follow those then americans who follow WRC. think of it like Busch Series coverage here. anyway, if teams were limited to 2 cars, other makes could enter without the outlay of cash to run 3+ crews.
guess what though, regardless of your ability to find/not find coverage, there are still alot of very competitive series elsewhere. there are probably more people in the world who follow those then americans who follow WRC. think of it like Busch Series coverage here. anyway, if teams were limited to 2 cars, other makes could enter without the outlay of cash to run 3+ crews.
| Kitsune | 03-12-2003 04:12 PM |
Limiting the teams to two or three cars would free up drivers for new sponsers and teams. Factory teams have a monopoly of sorts in WRC, I'm sure there are companys out there that would love to get involved if they could sign a driver. But with the ability of teams like Peugot and Citreon to monopolize drivers it hinders independant teams from having a chance. I'm still not supportive of salary cap ideas, but restricting the number of driver's a team can have on the pay roll is a good idea. That would not actually cap the development of the cars or the salary a driver can earn.
| aspera | 03-14-2003 05:16 AM |
what about this guy?
�
�
[url]http://www.imp.mc/rocwebsite/newpictures/CrashKings.jpg[/url]
Would Gordon be allowed to drive as the third man since he's never won WRC points?:)
Would Gordon be allowed to drive as the third man since he's never won WRC points?:)
| DJ 9iron | 03-14-2003 11:54 AM |
shut up! that's disgusting.
| aspera | 03-17-2003 05:31 PM |
*bump*
because I don't want anybody to miss that pic
because I don't want anybody to miss that pic
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