| meridock | 07-16-2004 09:13 AM |
Speed World Challenge and WRX (STi?)
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I am sure most of you have heard the news that Forced Induction is on its way to the TC class in speed world challenge. This opens things up to Audi TT, Mini Cooper S, and to me most importantly the Subaru's. (I know they were in it, but last years effort in a RS was not competitive)
I thoughts to the forum are -
How do you react to reports that the SCCA may limit boost to BELOW stock levels?
How do you think this will change the Acura/BMW/Mazda only top tens?
I thoughts to the forum are -
How do you react to reports that the SCCA may limit boost to BELOW stock levels?
How do you think this will change the Acura/BMW/Mazda only top tens?
| trhoppe | 07-16-2004 09:16 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by meridock[/i]
How do you react to reports that the SCCA may limit boost to BELOW stock levels?[/quote]
They should do whatever they need to do to make sure the cars are competitive and not outright winners. IMHO does a good job of balancing the cars in Touring. Althought it might be time for a *little* more weight to the BMWs
[quote]
How do you think this will change the Acura/BMW/Mazda only top tens?[/QUOTE]
Nothing in the first year. I don't think the cars will be competitive right off the bat, but top 10s the next year after they do a lot of evaluating and some adjustments. It would be in the best interest of the turbo teams IMHO to leave a little in the bag the first season.
-Tom
How do you react to reports that the SCCA may limit boost to BELOW stock levels?[/quote]
They should do whatever they need to do to make sure the cars are competitive and not outright winners. IMHO does a good job of balancing the cars in Touring. Althought it might be time for a *little* more weight to the BMWs
[quote]
How do you think this will change the Acura/BMW/Mazda only top tens?[/QUOTE]
Nothing in the first year. I don't think the cars will be competitive right off the bat, but top 10s the next year after they do a lot of evaluating and some adjustments. It would be in the best interest of the turbo teams IMHO to leave a little in the bag the first season.
-Tom
| meridock | 07-16-2004 10:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] They should do whatever they need to do to make sure the cars are competitive and not outright winners. IMHO does a good job of balancing the cars in Touring. Althought it might be time for a *little* more weight to the BMWs[/QUOTE]
I agree they do balance them well and after the money poured into Mazda they were more competitive than at first.
I would love to see more Manufacturers in the series and more options - the GT class is a little better at this (heck even a Holden was at mid ohio)
After watching what 150 lbs did to Auberlen at Mid-Ohio You may be correct :) Maybe start the BMW with 75 lbs and success ballast from there!
[QUOTE]Nothing in the first year. I don't think the cars will be competitive right off the bat, but top 10s the next year after they do a lot of evaluating and some adjustments. It would be in the best interest of the turbo teams IMHO to leave a little in the bag the first season.[/B][/QUOTE]
Personally I think that RS team would have the most track time with the Chassis, but engine management, gearing tuning, etc would make it all "new."
Absolutely - the turbo teams should not try to win on horsepower alone - good way for SCCA to red flag them the nest season... shades of the BMW M3 GTR in the ALMs...
[B] They should do whatever they need to do to make sure the cars are competitive and not outright winners. IMHO does a good job of balancing the cars in Touring. Althought it might be time for a *little* more weight to the BMWs[/QUOTE]
I agree they do balance them well and after the money poured into Mazda they were more competitive than at first.
I would love to see more Manufacturers in the series and more options - the GT class is a little better at this (heck even a Holden was at mid ohio)
After watching what 150 lbs did to Auberlen at Mid-Ohio You may be correct :) Maybe start the BMW with 75 lbs and success ballast from there!
[QUOTE]Nothing in the first year. I don't think the cars will be competitive right off the bat, but top 10s the next year after they do a lot of evaluating and some adjustments. It would be in the best interest of the turbo teams IMHO to leave a little in the bag the first season.[/B][/QUOTE]
Personally I think that RS team would have the most track time with the Chassis, but engine management, gearing tuning, etc would make it all "new."
Absolutely - the turbo teams should not try to win on horsepower alone - good way for SCCA to red flag them the nest season... shades of the BMW M3 GTR in the ALMs...
| trhoppe | 07-16-2004 10:38 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by meridock[/i]
I would love to see more Manufacturers in the series and more options - the GT class is a little better at this (heck even a Holden was at mid ohio)
[/quote]
Hopefully, SOA will jump in and not make a privateer fight it out with a WRX.
[quote]
After watching what 150 lbs did to Auberlen at Mid-Ohio You may be correct :) Maybe start the BMW with 75 lbs and success ballast from there![/quote] Thats what I was thinking.
[quote]Personally I think that RS team would have the most track time with the Chassis, but engine management, gearing tuning, etc would make it all "new."[/quote]
Don't get me started on that. I don't understand how anyone could suck more then they did. They had pathetic pathetic lap times. Someone would be much better off starting from scratch IMHO.
-Tom
I would love to see more Manufacturers in the series and more options - the GT class is a little better at this (heck even a Holden was at mid ohio)
[/quote]
Hopefully, SOA will jump in and not make a privateer fight it out with a WRX.
[quote]
After watching what 150 lbs did to Auberlen at Mid-Ohio You may be correct :) Maybe start the BMW with 75 lbs and success ballast from there![/quote] Thats what I was thinking.
[quote]Personally I think that RS team would have the most track time with the Chassis, but engine management, gearing tuning, etc would make it all "new."[/quote]
Don't get me started on that. I don't understand how anyone could suck more then they did. They had pathetic pathetic lap times. Someone would be much better off starting from scratch IMHO.
-Tom
| Chaste Automotive | 07-17-2004 12:59 AM |
LEt me educate all of you a little on how much this whole thing stinks. As a shop that was building a car for WC this year we decided that to run competitively we would need at minimum 240-260hp that is what Nissan, Acura, and the Focus is making. TO do this we started to develop a N/A 2.5l motor this decision was based on conversations we had with the SCCA about whether or not they would allow a turbo car. When we asked they told us very clearly that it would not happend this year in any way shape or form. They did offer to let us run practice at a few events. Now we spent a whole lot of $$$ to develop the engine though it is not finished when they announce this. Right now the exact turbo rules are very hazy and as they stand a WRX would not be competitive right now. THere is a ton of resistance from the existing teams to the Turbo idea so do not hold your breath. We will continue to work on our car and hopefully when the SCCA gets firm with the rules we will be able to finish our car.
| meridock | 07-17-2004 01:14 AM |
Everyone seems to view power adders as "cheaters" but take for example, mazda, they could run a less twitchy motor and need less intake work if mazdaspeed could field a blown motor. The rest have less "stock" options. - I stilll believe limiting the field to stock boost levels keeps the field closer to the true intent of WC. 'Stock' cars going head to head. As it stands now that hand made Mazda intake seems to break that spirit.
| zzyzx | 07-20-2004 02:08 AM |
[QUOTE=meridock]How do you react to reports that the SCCA may limit boost to BELOW stock levels?
[/QUOTE]
Where did you hear this from? Link please.
And to address your question, I'll pose another. Would you rather run a grenading 2.0L NA Mazda motor, or a de-tuned factory motor running less boost than stock? Which motor do you think will cost more and which one do you think would last longer?
- Steve Sulatycki
[/QUOTE]
Where did you hear this from? Link please.
And to address your question, I'll pose another. Would you rather run a grenading 2.0L NA Mazda motor, or a de-tuned factory motor running less boost than stock? Which motor do you think will cost more and which one do you think would last longer?
- Steve Sulatycki
| meridock | 07-20-2004 08:07 AM |
[QUOTE=zzyzx]Where did you hear this from? Link please.
And to address your question, I'll pose another. Would you rather run a grenading 2.0L NA Mazda motor, or a de-tuned factory motor running less boost than stock? Which motor do you think will cost more and which one do you think would last longer?
- Steve Sulatycki[/QUOTE]
Latest SCCA Magazine was my source.
I would rather run a competitive motor. :) The BMW/Acura/Mazdas are running much higher HP than the stock WRX. While the Mazda motor seem less than stable (three each last season?) they are top ten finishers.
And to address your question, I'll pose another. Would you rather run a grenading 2.0L NA Mazda motor, or a de-tuned factory motor running less boost than stock? Which motor do you think will cost more and which one do you think would last longer?
- Steve Sulatycki[/QUOTE]
Latest SCCA Magazine was my source.
I would rather run a competitive motor. :) The BMW/Acura/Mazdas are running much higher HP than the stock WRX. While the Mazda motor seem less than stable (three each last season?) they are top ten finishers.
| trhoppe | 07-20-2004 09:31 AM |
I've "heard" that the Mazdas are making 190whp, Acuras 200whp and BMWs 230whp. The WRX motor can make that on "less then stock" boost if we need to.
My car with an intake, header, high flow cat, stock boost, ECUtek, 100% stock internals made 220whp. Give me fully programmable engine mgmt and optimize the motor and you can have a very safe motor to 240whp on stock boost (7psi at redline)
-Tom
My car with an intake, header, high flow cat, stock boost, ECUtek, 100% stock internals made 220whp. Give me fully programmable engine mgmt and optimize the motor and you can have a very safe motor to 240whp on stock boost (7psi at redline)
-Tom
| Scooby South | 07-20-2004 09:54 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I've "heard" that the Mazdas are making 190whp, Acuras 200whp and BMWs 230whp. The WRX motor can make that on "less then stock" boost if we need to.
My car with an intake, header, high flow cat, stock boost, ECUtek, 100% stock internals made 220whp. Give me fully programmable engine mgmt and optimize the motor and you can have a very safe motor to 240whp on stock boost (7psi at redline)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
According to a few people...those figures are pretty much sandbagged...because in a recent issue of Stupid Street...they had the Realtiime RSX on the dyno....and it put "DOWN" ...230whp....The Mugen Honda put down an insane 244whp...and yes I know theres different readings on different dyno's...but even Kartboy said that the Mazda they were building was putting down in the neighborhood of 225....
Bill
My car with an intake, header, high flow cat, stock boost, ECUtek, 100% stock internals made 220whp. Give me fully programmable engine mgmt and optimize the motor and you can have a very safe motor to 240whp on stock boost (7psi at redline)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
According to a few people...those figures are pretty much sandbagged...because in a recent issue of Stupid Street...they had the Realtiime RSX on the dyno....and it put "DOWN" ...230whp....The Mugen Honda put down an insane 244whp...and yes I know theres different readings on different dyno's...but even Kartboy said that the Mazda they were building was putting down in the neighborhood of 225....
Bill
| enduroshark | 07-20-2004 10:57 AM |
Yeah, the 225 to the wheels of the Proteges is real. The BMW's could put out a ton more if they were not restricted. The BMW 325s in ITS can put out over 220 at the wheels and the IT rules are a lot more restrictive than World Challenge.
| trhoppe | 07-20-2004 01:27 PM |
Oh :lol:
Then we're screwed with less then stock boost. We can still get there if allowed stock boost though, but the motor would be more volatile.
-Tom
Then we're screwed with less then stock boost. We can still get there if allowed stock boost though, but the motor would be more volatile.
-Tom
| meridock | 07-20-2004 02:07 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Oh :lol:
Then we're screwed with less then stock boost. We can still get there if allowed stock boost though, but the motor would be more volatile.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
This is my thought exactly - the lack of boost would make the 2.0L uncompetiive to factory style teams like Turner and RTR. The JDM parts bin for the Japanese TC would be huge.
The 2.5L NA would be "twitchy" :)
Then we're screwed with less then stock boost. We can still get there if allowed stock boost though, but the motor would be more volatile.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
This is my thought exactly - the lack of boost would make the 2.0L uncompetiive to factory style teams like Turner and RTR. The JDM parts bin for the Japanese TC would be huge.
The 2.5L NA would be "twitchy" :)
| BriDrive | 07-20-2004 03:30 PM |
There are other considerations beyond turbo PSI:
How much weight will be able to be ditched within the rules?
Must the differentials remain stock?
What about brake bias modifications...allowed?
Can suspension pickup point geometry be moved/changed?
A WRX could still be a really fast stinker in touring car with 8 psi induction, given other potential upgrade paths allowed / disallowed.
I think the AWD factor is a bigger concern for Auberlen,Plumb,Cunningham, Kleinubing et al....given that if everything else is equal +/-, the AWD's will work the field, especially in starts / restarts, etc. Look at Audi S4's, Audi RS6's etc in other series....
BriDrive
How much weight will be able to be ditched within the rules?
Must the differentials remain stock?
What about brake bias modifications...allowed?
Can suspension pickup point geometry be moved/changed?
A WRX could still be a really fast stinker in touring car with 8 psi induction, given other potential upgrade paths allowed / disallowed.
I think the AWD factor is a bigger concern for Auberlen,Plumb,Cunningham, Kleinubing et al....given that if everything else is equal +/-, the AWD's will work the field, especially in starts / restarts, etc. Look at Audi S4's, Audi RS6's etc in other series....
BriDrive
| kfoote | 07-20-2004 03:43 PM |
Weight: As a guess, probably about 2600 lbs
Diff: Must be factory ratios and type, though any factory ratio ond type can be used
Bais adjustment: Free. The most common in WC is a dual master cyllinder setup with in cockpit adjustable bias
Suspension type myst remain stock, but all suspension pickup points can be moved a certain distance (I believe it's 20mm, but I'm not 100% sure on that). That leaves a lot of room to play with.
The Audi A4's in TC are always a concern on the start. They gain 3-4 positions befopre turn one pretty consistently.
Diff: Must be factory ratios and type, though any factory ratio ond type can be used
Bais adjustment: Free. The most common in WC is a dual master cyllinder setup with in cockpit adjustable bias
Suspension type myst remain stock, but all suspension pickup points can be moved a certain distance (I believe it's 20mm, but I'm not 100% sure on that). That leaves a lot of room to play with.
The Audi A4's in TC are always a concern on the start. They gain 3-4 positions befopre turn one pretty consistently.
| trhoppe | 07-20-2004 04:06 PM |
[url]http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts/2004-VTS-SUBARU-WRX.pdf[/url]
They got the weight so far at 2850. Kinda heavy if you ask me :)
[url]http://www.sccapro.com/04rulebook/04-rules-wc-1.pdf[/url]
25mm below the wheel and 75mm above the wheel movement of suspension points
-Tom
They got the weight so far at 2850. Kinda heavy if you ask me :)
[url]http://www.sccapro.com/04rulebook/04-rules-wc-1.pdf[/url]
25mm below the wheel and 75mm above the wheel movement of suspension points
-Tom
| zzyzx | 07-20-2004 04:32 PM |
That DRAFT has some critical info missing... like boost. :) It'll get worked out. It pretty much reads "stock engine" to me. The SCCA will take a very conservative approach to all forced induction cars to start with. No need to entirely alienate the current competitors.
Contrast the WRX DRAFT, with the 2.5 RS VTS:
[url]http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts/2004-VTS-SUBARU-RS.pdf[/url]
Hrm, 2850 lb. WRX with stock motor, or 2550 lb. RS with 13:1 C/R & 8500 RPM rev limit. Decisions, decisions...
- Steve Sulatycki
Contrast the WRX DRAFT, with the 2.5 RS VTS:
[url]http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts/2004-VTS-SUBARU-RS.pdf[/url]
Hrm, 2850 lb. WRX with stock motor, or 2550 lb. RS with 13:1 C/R & 8500 RPM rev limit. Decisions, decisions...
- Steve Sulatycki
| Grintch | 07-20-2004 05:14 PM |
The SCCA has a tendency to be afraid of Turbos and AWD. So WHEN they allow them, the rules don't favor them (i.e. 300hp STi's with relatively high centers of gravity and strut suspesnion vs. 405hp Z06 Corvette's with low CG, multilink suspension, and bigger tires in Touring 1 for '05).
The theory put forward is to see how the cars match up to the existing competition, then they can make adjustments (in future years). The reality is no one wants to spend a ton of money building and developing a new car that is uncompetitive. Then down the road, the SCCA says that no change is needed because there is insufficent member interest in the car to bother with competitive adjustments. There is no interest (no one running the cars) because they made it uncompetitive!
The theory put forward is to see how the cars match up to the existing competition, then they can make adjustments (in future years). The reality is no one wants to spend a ton of money building and developing a new car that is uncompetitive. Then down the road, the SCCA says that no change is needed because there is insufficent member interest in the car to bother with competitive adjustments. There is no interest (no one running the cars) because they made it uncompetitive!
| JMU R1 | 07-20-2004 07:13 PM |
I don't particularly care if the STi is able to play in GT although it would be nice. In touring the WRX can do pretty well once the rules stabilize a bit. I can all but guarantee turbo cars are going to be heavily restricted for at least 1 full year before they are given breaks to be competitive.
I really disagree with the relocated suspension mounting points allowance. The series is exploding in costs and things like this are not necessary for good racing. For my money MoTEC should be outlawed as well and the engine spec dialed back a bit because the N/A engines are becoming wickedly expensive to build.
I really disagree with the relocated suspension mounting points allowance. The series is exploding in costs and things like this are not necessary for good racing. For my money MoTEC should be outlawed as well and the engine spec dialed back a bit because the N/A engines are becoming wickedly expensive to build.
| Chromer | 07-20-2004 07:53 PM |
I'm guessing they'll give it a turbo inlet restrictor -- it's much easier to police than boost level. That would be good news too, especially if you could play with cams and compression. Nice fat torque curve without the peakiness of the built NA motors - it just doesn't rev very high.
I notice they reference the FIA/ASN Homologation forms in the preamble for the RS specs. One *might* be able to make a case for being able to use the GroupN ratio box and other assorted FIA homologated bits on the WRX.
I notice they reference the FIA/ASN Homologation forms in the preamble for the RS specs. One *might* be able to make a case for being able to use the GroupN ratio box and other assorted FIA homologated bits on the WRX.
| GarySheehan | 07-20-2004 10:07 PM |
I honestly wouldn't expect any turbo to run in the top 5 for most of 2005, regardless of the team running them.
SCCA themselves stated the cars will run below stock boost and will be configured conservatively in order to protect the investments of the existing teams.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
SCCA themselves stated the cars will run below stock boost and will be configured conservatively in order to protect the investments of the existing teams.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| BriDrive | 07-21-2004 12:38 PM |
It looks like if your gonna try an put a WRX in TC AND try to win your staring at a 3 year investment.
Looks like SCCA has realized the importance of expanding the TC by watching what people are interested in but have some decisions to make along the way about how long they're going to let the WRX, SRT4, et al handicap.
Consumers outside are buying subarus, mitsus, dodges, "Mini Coopers" by the scads and want to see them race....Acura and Nissan are savvy to this and are putting money(albeit laundered to some extent) behind their latest models...
Did Cunningham jump into the Nissan to expand his RealTime empire and for diversification or cause the money was a talkin.
Subaru of America should jump on this chance, spend a little 1 to 2 year "earn your stripes" money and then start "podiuming" touring car...it would pay tremendous dividends in solidifying sales to a new marketing segment: "Driven by what's inside,Driven on the track!"
BriDrive
Looks like SCCA has realized the importance of expanding the TC by watching what people are interested in but have some decisions to make along the way about how long they're going to let the WRX, SRT4, et al handicap.
Consumers outside are buying subarus, mitsus, dodges, "Mini Coopers" by the scads and want to see them race....Acura and Nissan are savvy to this and are putting money(albeit laundered to some extent) behind their latest models...
Did Cunningham jump into the Nissan to expand his RealTime empire and for diversification or cause the money was a talkin.
Subaru of America should jump on this chance, spend a little 1 to 2 year "earn your stripes" money and then start "podiuming" touring car...it would pay tremendous dividends in solidifying sales to a new marketing segment: "Driven by what's inside,Driven on the track!"
BriDrive
| scoobyRx | 07-24-2004 05:08 AM |
This was posted on SCCA website yesterday. Looks like an early WC program to me.
[URL=http://www.scca.com/News/News.asp]T1 STi[/URL]
[URL=http://www.scca.com/News/News.asp]T1 STi[/URL]
| Opie | 07-24-2004 06:51 PM |
Is the Subaru Legacy eligible for Touring? Would be interesting to see one with a built 3.0 H6 and a STi 6-speed running in that class vs. the BMW's, TSX & Mazda 6.
| StopTech | 07-25-2004 06:28 PM |
With just a turboback exhaust, a WRX can put down about 200whp. Do you guys really think that a $30,000 WRX motor wouldn't be able to compete with the NA guys? :confused:
Tim
Tim
| GarySheehan | 07-25-2004 08:26 PM |
That's the thing. It wouldn't be a $30,000 WRX motor. By the rules, it would be a bone stock WRX motor with less than stock factory boost.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| zzyzx | 07-25-2004 11:36 PM |
A few things:
1) 2.8L is limit for TC at this point in time, so no H6 unless it's destroked.
2) With the intro of FI in Touring in '05, the car (IMO) to have would hands-down be the Legacy. All other things being equal, the Legacy has far superior aerodynamics than the Impreza.
3) Any comment on what is / isn't allowed in terms of modifications has little basis. If you actually front the money and field a car, you "lobby" the SCCA to get the allowances changed. A good example is the VTS for the 2.5 RS which is completely the result of Irish Mike's efforts. If you field a car and it's clearly not competitive you [b]will[/b] get allowances above what is in the current VTS. That's the way this series works. Or, if you have a gaggle of engineers than can "prove" why it won't be competitive ala Cadillac, you can get those allowances prior to fielding said car. Of course, there was more than the engineers - there was a whole lotta money for the series sponsorship. ;)
- Steve Sulatycki
1) 2.8L is limit for TC at this point in time, so no H6 unless it's destroked.
2) With the intro of FI in Touring in '05, the car (IMO) to have would hands-down be the Legacy. All other things being equal, the Legacy has far superior aerodynamics than the Impreza.
3) Any comment on what is / isn't allowed in terms of modifications has little basis. If you actually front the money and field a car, you "lobby" the SCCA to get the allowances changed. A good example is the VTS for the 2.5 RS which is completely the result of Irish Mike's efforts. If you field a car and it's clearly not competitive you [b]will[/b] get allowances above what is in the current VTS. That's the way this series works. Or, if you have a gaggle of engineers than can "prove" why it won't be competitive ala Cadillac, you can get those allowances prior to fielding said car. Of course, there was more than the engineers - there was a whole lotta money for the series sponsorship. ;)
- Steve Sulatycki
| StopTech | 07-26-2004 01:14 AM |
Gary, are saying that Auberlen is running a stock motor and exhaust, or that the new rules state that FI cars will be forced to run with dead stock engines and exhaust? :confused:
Tim
Tim
| BriDrive | 07-26-2004 10:06 AM |
Here's a quick look at the individual VTS's for vehicles running TC(grey) and GT.
In the case of the WRX in TC, the sheet is currently incomplete with regard to Section K.5. (max boost pressure) for 2005 (among other areas as well).
Tim, I'm no expert, but the VTS's are updated and modified, fairly regulary in some cases, to keep the cars "competitive". Because there is such a diverse group of cars, each VTS is ultimately customized to some extent.
For this reason, its virtually impossible to make correlations on fairness between the BMW and the WRX based solely on engine allowance.
[url]http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.html[/url]
BriDrive
In the case of the WRX in TC, the sheet is currently incomplete with regard to Section K.5. (max boost pressure) for 2005 (among other areas as well).
Tim, I'm no expert, but the VTS's are updated and modified, fairly regulary in some cases, to keep the cars "competitive". Because there is such a diverse group of cars, each VTS is ultimately customized to some extent.
For this reason, its virtually impossible to make correlations on fairness between the BMW and the WRX based solely on engine allowance.
[url]http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.html[/url]
BriDrive
| RaceComp Engineering | 07-26-2004 11:23 PM |
After going to the last 3 ALMS/ Speed TC and GT events, and talking to ALOT of people I already know running in this series, team owners, drivers and engineers, ..........AND as myself and my sponsor as we speak sit and seriously ponder the level of commitment required and asking ourselves how familiar do we want to become with Mitch's you know what ,.....we are leaning towards buying a BMW motorsport tub and or complete Turner car for next year, versus building a WRX for TC, given this simple fact. If you're not Petey(Cunningham), Will ( Turner), or Auberlen,...you dont have much pull let alone much of anything to stand on. Consider this,..Realtime brought 7 cars to Infineon ( SEars Point ) ran I think ,..like 5 cars,.but had the customer level drivers wanted to, he could have like 7 Realtime cars out there at once !! RSX and TSXs,...2 dont have the paint job......thats when you begin to understand thats its a money thing. From a Toyo Tire poll survey taken at Mid Ohio a staggering % number like 24 % of the Speed people there that weekend claimed to have been there to see Billy boy !!! ( Auberlen)....and with his driving performance,..I cant blaim them,..but my point is,..there is someone ,..like Boris Said,.who will and can drive anything, and barring a mechanical issue,....will always land on his feet with a podium,...so the teams chase these incredible drivers with serious budgets and the sport gets farther and farther out of reach for the small guys ( me )(who cant drive anyway :) )
Anyone want a good example of how money can be spent in this series,..look back at the first race of 2003 at Sebring,...Auberlen literally ran away and sent the rest of the pack post cards........a crazy 30 second lead I think I remember,.....hmmmnnnnnn..can you say BMW motorsport motor, engineers, alot of money was spent on that first car that year, then SCCA stepped in and things kinda calmed down, but that made it worse for all the other BMW's........
Another thing to consider,..on the issue of cheating....if you run midpack or worse, who is stopping you, let alone who is protesting your motor having 25 more at the wheels than the next guy?....especially when your suspension isnt sorted, so your exit speeds are 5 less than the first half,..that 25 extra is all of a sudden required to survive,.so dont think no one isnt cheating just to survive,..esp if you sit at the apexes in practice and watch who gets on the gas before and after the apex !! Its like 1+1 is you really know what to look for. Carrying speed is great but if the guy behind you stabbs the throttle as he looks at the curbing and you hear him behind you, and get on it AT the apex, dont be surprised when he is next to you under braking for the next corner,..some of the back pack teams have ALOT of power, but lack in other area's...so its a total package, and if a Subaru is do well, it'll need that total package.
In closing, I think the only way Subaru's will have a chance in that series is if someone builds a serious car, well sorted and has a great driver drive the doors off of it mid to back of pack, and they spend more money getting it to mid pack, then after some front pack mistakes and Taz Harvey style antics, if the Subaru could end up in 10th,..some other customer cars may follow,..so with maybe 5 WRX's in the series,.Mitch would start to give em a break,...only then though.....but with 1 good car,.nope,.its not a factor. It doesnt rain enough for the AWD to be an issue,..maybe at Mosport with a standing start could that big car stay in front of the last half of the field,......
So if you do the math,..add up all of the possible Real Time cars, Turner cars, and Mazdas,..they ARE 75% of the cars,.........they are the insurance companies and tobacco companies of the series,..1 or 2 WRX's aint gonna change that. We will run a E46 and be happy,....after all if you cant beat em,........well you know where this is going !!
Oh,..and this is my .02 cents worth,...
What they need is a new series,.called TC-JR. Under 25k, and all you can do is brake lines, pads, cage, and tires, maximum stock alignment specs, open exhuast.Throw all regional drivers in them from around the country and televise it. No pro's, no centerfold flag and umbrella girls,..just real moms out there, and real girlfriends,..that way when you screw up ,.its your wife bitching at you,.......I know I'd be on pole every weekend !!!!!!
:)
944 turbo guy
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
Anyone want a good example of how money can be spent in this series,..look back at the first race of 2003 at Sebring,...Auberlen literally ran away and sent the rest of the pack post cards........a crazy 30 second lead I think I remember,.....hmmmnnnnnn..can you say BMW motorsport motor, engineers, alot of money was spent on that first car that year, then SCCA stepped in and things kinda calmed down, but that made it worse for all the other BMW's........
Another thing to consider,..on the issue of cheating....if you run midpack or worse, who is stopping you, let alone who is protesting your motor having 25 more at the wheels than the next guy?....especially when your suspension isnt sorted, so your exit speeds are 5 less than the first half,..that 25 extra is all of a sudden required to survive,.so dont think no one isnt cheating just to survive,..esp if you sit at the apexes in practice and watch who gets on the gas before and after the apex !! Its like 1+1 is you really know what to look for. Carrying speed is great but if the guy behind you stabbs the throttle as he looks at the curbing and you hear him behind you, and get on it AT the apex, dont be surprised when he is next to you under braking for the next corner,..some of the back pack teams have ALOT of power, but lack in other area's...so its a total package, and if a Subaru is do well, it'll need that total package.
In closing, I think the only way Subaru's will have a chance in that series is if someone builds a serious car, well sorted and has a great driver drive the doors off of it mid to back of pack, and they spend more money getting it to mid pack, then after some front pack mistakes and Taz Harvey style antics, if the Subaru could end up in 10th,..some other customer cars may follow,..so with maybe 5 WRX's in the series,.Mitch would start to give em a break,...only then though.....but with 1 good car,.nope,.its not a factor. It doesnt rain enough for the AWD to be an issue,..maybe at Mosport with a standing start could that big car stay in front of the last half of the field,......
So if you do the math,..add up all of the possible Real Time cars, Turner cars, and Mazdas,..they ARE 75% of the cars,.........they are the insurance companies and tobacco companies of the series,..1 or 2 WRX's aint gonna change that. We will run a E46 and be happy,....after all if you cant beat em,........well you know where this is going !!
Oh,..and this is my .02 cents worth,...
What they need is a new series,.called TC-JR. Under 25k, and all you can do is brake lines, pads, cage, and tires, maximum stock alignment specs, open exhuast.Throw all regional drivers in them from around the country and televise it. No pro's, no centerfold flag and umbrella girls,..just real moms out there, and real girlfriends,..that way when you screw up ,.its your wife bitching at you,.......I know I'd be on pole every weekend !!!!!!
:)
944 turbo guy
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
| meridock | 07-27-2004 08:50 AM |
Myles,
I was literally laughing at my desk reading this!
I still say to stay successful SCCA Pro Racing in the WC needs more makes and models... :)
I was literally laughing at my desk reading this!
I still say to stay successful SCCA Pro Racing in the WC needs more makes and models... :)
| RaceComp Engineering | 07-27-2004 08:55 AM |
The wife didnt think it was funny,...the Paine Webber lady did though.......
944 turbo guy
944 turbo guy
| Grintch | 07-27-2004 09:25 AM |
Myles, how does your TC-JR class differ from Touring 2 or Showroom Stock B? I wouldn't hold my breath on anything like that getting much TV coverage.
| RaceComp Engineering | 07-27-2004 10:33 AM |
[QUOTE=Grintch]Myles, how does your TC-JR class differ from Touring 2 or Showroom Stock B? I wouldn't hold my breath on anything like that getting much TV coverage.[/QUOTE]
(mind you I was joking, and I would never hold my breath with anything in racing !! )
To answer that question,...it would differ because our wives and long term girlfriends would be the team principals,.after all they hold the check book anyway and have the attorneys right? ( lol ) They are the first to remind us of going off the track, when we didnt even make a clean pass..... ;)
944 turbo guy
(mind you I was joking, and I would never hold my breath with anything in racing !! )
To answer that question,...it would differ because our wives and long term girlfriends would be the team principals,.after all they hold the check book anyway and have the attorneys right? ( lol ) They are the first to remind us of going off the track, when we didnt even make a clean pass..... ;)
944 turbo guy
| RaceComp Engineering | 07-27-2004 10:40 AM |
Oh dont forget the fact that the Panoz Pro series started life as a Womens Global series, of which I watched everyone that was televised and in person at Road Atlanta,..so there is an audience for seemingly amateur level motorsports being televised,....better yet ,.lets really throw a wrench into this thread,...
Lets have a series where we throw a 4 door Chevy, Ford, Mopar, and Chrysler body over go karts and stick Sunday remote changers in em,...and Fox would run that 5 times a day. Call it,....." Couch racers Busch series"
Even have larry McReynolds and all the Winston cup drivers commentate on it,....point really is , if you could throw a Nascar angle on it,..it would be a instant success.
I do miss the once a year Indy car race in Hawaii with all the drivers from different formula coming to participate. Maybe do a thing with Go-karts,.with all drivers from around the world,...wRC, INdy, F-1, Craftsment trucks, Paris-Dakar drivers,...
ANYWAYYYY,.BACK TO THE ISSUES AT HAND..........
Subaru has a long rough road in TC before its a household name in that Series.
944 turbo guy
Lets have a series where we throw a 4 door Chevy, Ford, Mopar, and Chrysler body over go karts and stick Sunday remote changers in em,...and Fox would run that 5 times a day. Call it,....." Couch racers Busch series"
Even have larry McReynolds and all the Winston cup drivers commentate on it,....point really is , if you could throw a Nascar angle on it,..it would be a instant success.
I do miss the once a year Indy car race in Hawaii with all the drivers from different formula coming to participate. Maybe do a thing with Go-karts,.with all drivers from around the world,...wRC, INdy, F-1, Craftsment trucks, Paris-Dakar drivers,...
ANYWAYYYY,.BACK TO THE ISSUES AT HAND..........
Subaru has a long rough road in TC before its a household name in that Series.
944 turbo guy
| meridock | 07-27-2004 10:49 AM |
I just wish Subaru competed solidly ... let alone be household name.
| RaceComp Engineering | 07-27-2004 10:54 AM |
Yeah, if they hired Pratt and Miller to produce a WRX for TC it would be great except for the Gas cap.....oops !!
944 turbo guy
944 turbo guy
| Grintch | 07-27-2004 10:55 AM |
Karts are too high tech for NASCAR. Maybe Speed (NASCAR) Channel can bring back lawnmower racing, maybe make them the next IROC spec. car.
You ever hear any of the NASCAR fans bragging about how the NASCAR drivers always dominate IROC (International Race of Champions)? Duh, IROC uses basicly a Cup car on NASCAR tracks, of course they will win. I want to see them win with a lawnmower! Or at least put them in a front drive Touring car on a road course.
You ever hear any of the NASCAR fans bragging about how the NASCAR drivers always dominate IROC (International Race of Champions)? Duh, IROC uses basicly a Cup car on NASCAR tracks, of course they will win. I want to see them win with a lawnmower! Or at least put them in a front drive Touring car on a road course.
| jonmacs22 | 07-27-2004 11:09 AM |
I think that it might be useful to clear a few things up:
1. Mitch and the SCCA Pro group are not nearly as bad as Race Comp Eng. is making them out to be. I think that they royally f-ed up on the whole caddie situation this year, but unfortunately money and manufacturer involvement will talk sometimes.
2. The rules state that FI participants can run in practice for some of the events this season. In my opinion it would behoove someone like Gary sheehan or Irish Mikes (assuming a return to the FI motor) to take a car out there a few times and run. Maybe one of those two race groups would rent out their cars in WC-TC form to a team who is considering running next season.
3. I forsee numerous podium finishes for FI cars next season. I also believe that we will see Dodge appear with a factory-backed SRT-4 program or a similar class-leading contigency program to the one that they have with the Viper Comp Coupe.
4. The BMW have been slowed down and if you look at the Portland race you saw the Mazda 6 with a chance to win (car broke), two TSX's finish up front, a sentra in fourth, a protege in sixth, etc.
Just a few points. thanks.
j
1. Mitch and the SCCA Pro group are not nearly as bad as Race Comp Eng. is making them out to be. I think that they royally f-ed up on the whole caddie situation this year, but unfortunately money and manufacturer involvement will talk sometimes.
2. The rules state that FI participants can run in practice for some of the events this season. In my opinion it would behoove someone like Gary sheehan or Irish Mikes (assuming a return to the FI motor) to take a car out there a few times and run. Maybe one of those two race groups would rent out their cars in WC-TC form to a team who is considering running next season.
3. I forsee numerous podium finishes for FI cars next season. I also believe that we will see Dodge appear with a factory-backed SRT-4 program or a similar class-leading contigency program to the one that they have with the Viper Comp Coupe.
4. The BMW have been slowed down and if you look at the Portland race you saw the Mazda 6 with a chance to win (car broke), two TSX's finish up front, a sentra in fourth, a protege in sixth, etc.
Just a few points. thanks.
j
| StopTech | 07-27-2004 12:34 PM |
[QUOTE=Grintch]Karts are too high tech for NASCAR. Maybe Speed (NASCAR) Channel can bring back lawnmower racing, maybe make them the next IROC spec. car.
You ever hear any of the NASCAR fans bragging about how the NASCAR drivers always dominate IROC (International Race of Champions)? Duh, IROC uses basicly a Cup car on NASCAR tracks, of course they will win. I want to see them win with a lawnmower! Or at least put them in a front drive Touring car on a road course.[/QUOTE]
LOL, you mean the NASCAR (Speed) Channel? I think lawnmowers would be the perfect IROC spec car.
jonmacs:
1. I agree with you for the most part. I think it was a bit too obvious with Mitch and his entourage rolling around Sebring in Escalades that Cadillac had a bit more than a competitive advantage.
2. Gary's WRX is so far out of spec for TC, it's not even funny. The VTS for the WRX in TC states that the motor must be STOCK internals, stock intercooler, etc., so it would need a new motor. His suspension setup would also be way underpowered for TC, where a competitive chassis alone costs in the neighborhood of $150K.
3. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dodge with a factory backed type of deal, but how can the SCCA allow the SRT-4 when everybody knows it's fastAr? Especially in the corners. But seriously, look out for Mazda running a turbo'd AWD Mazda6 in GT to compete with the STi and EVO. (and yes, it is a Mazda Mazda6. I chit you not.)
4. Yes, at some point Bill's REWARDS weight is going to slow him down. Check out this pic: [img][/img]
Also, RaceComp: There is something to be said for organizing a legitimate team effort with at least partial factory backing. You have to admit that it's going to be tough to prevent car manufacturers from backing high level race teams, it's a relationship that benefits both parties. Once you realize that, you realize that it's very difficult for a privateer to compete at that level, so to be competitive it is very beneficial to align yourself with a manufacturer. With this rule change, there are undoubtedly going to be a couple makers at least thinking about jumping in, so what better chance than now to put your thinking cap on and put together a big time plan to run a Turner-esque, highly competitive, factory backed race team? Sure it takes some organization and planning, and many long hours, but if you're going to go racing at this level and expect to compete, that's what it takes. My 2c.
Tim
You ever hear any of the NASCAR fans bragging about how the NASCAR drivers always dominate IROC (International Race of Champions)? Duh, IROC uses basicly a Cup car on NASCAR tracks, of course they will win. I want to see them win with a lawnmower! Or at least put them in a front drive Touring car on a road course.[/QUOTE]
LOL, you mean the NASCAR (Speed) Channel? I think lawnmowers would be the perfect IROC spec car.
jonmacs:
1. I agree with you for the most part. I think it was a bit too obvious with Mitch and his entourage rolling around Sebring in Escalades that Cadillac had a bit more than a competitive advantage.
2. Gary's WRX is so far out of spec for TC, it's not even funny. The VTS for the WRX in TC states that the motor must be STOCK internals, stock intercooler, etc., so it would need a new motor. His suspension setup would also be way underpowered for TC, where a competitive chassis alone costs in the neighborhood of $150K.
3. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dodge with a factory backed type of deal, but how can the SCCA allow the SRT-4 when everybody knows it's fastAr? Especially in the corners. But seriously, look out for Mazda running a turbo'd AWD Mazda6 in GT to compete with the STi and EVO. (and yes, it is a Mazda Mazda6. I chit you not.)
4. Yes, at some point Bill's REWARDS weight is going to slow him down. Check out this pic: [img][/img]
Also, RaceComp: There is something to be said for organizing a legitimate team effort with at least partial factory backing. You have to admit that it's going to be tough to prevent car manufacturers from backing high level race teams, it's a relationship that benefits both parties. Once you realize that, you realize that it's very difficult for a privateer to compete at that level, so to be competitive it is very beneficial to align yourself with a manufacturer. With this rule change, there are undoubtedly going to be a couple makers at least thinking about jumping in, so what better chance than now to put your thinking cap on and put together a big time plan to run a Turner-esque, highly competitive, factory backed race team? Sure it takes some organization and planning, and many long hours, but if you're going to go racing at this level and expect to compete, that's what it takes. My 2c.
Tim
| jonmacs22 | 07-27-2004 01:28 PM |
[QUOTE=StopTech]
His suspension setup would also be way underpowered for TC, where a competitive chassis alone costs in the neighborhood of $150K.
But seriously, look out for Mazda running a turbo'd AWD Mazda6 in GT to compete with the STi and EVO. (and yes, it is a Mazda Mazda6. I chit you not.)
Tim[/QUOTE]
I agree with most of your comments, and the photo you wanted to insert was the one of the concrete block being put into Bill's car. However, a competitive TC chasis is no where near 150k. The highest dollar TC cars with engine are barely approaching that number. Hell a BMW Motorsport chasis is 20k and then you add the rest for about 50k (if that), not including motor and wiring harness (motec) of course. The only other piece of the puzzle I am confused about is the STI and EVO comments. People have discussed this topic many a time. Personally I know that the WRX can be competitive in TC (assuming someone has the budget to run through transmissions, which maybe a point of contension with the SCCA to let them use the STI 6-speed just as they allow the BMW's to run the E36 M3 trans), but I am far from convinced that either the STI or EVO can be race winners in GT. Yes we have all seen what the tuner population is capable of winding these two cars up to when it comes to power, but I just do not see how such highly tuned cars will be able to compete in 140 degree track temp weather such as what was just experienced at portland last weekend, and let's not forget the heat and humidity that the Petit Le Mans often endures during the month of august. I think it is just too much stress on those two cars given how few consessions the SCCA is likely to give them in order to beaf up the drivetrains.
I guess my only point is that for Subaru the WRX is a great car to race in TC when you look at the competitors in the class (Sentra Spec-V, SRT-4, Mazda6, RSX, etc), but I fail to see how an STI or EVO in any way compete for buyers in the market with Corvettes, RS6's, CTS-V's, 911's, etc. Maybe if the GT class had more 350Z's, S4's, or M3's.
His suspension setup would also be way underpowered for TC, where a competitive chassis alone costs in the neighborhood of $150K.
But seriously, look out for Mazda running a turbo'd AWD Mazda6 in GT to compete with the STi and EVO. (and yes, it is a Mazda Mazda6. I chit you not.)
Tim[/QUOTE]
I agree with most of your comments, and the photo you wanted to insert was the one of the concrete block being put into Bill's car. However, a competitive TC chasis is no where near 150k. The highest dollar TC cars with engine are barely approaching that number. Hell a BMW Motorsport chasis is 20k and then you add the rest for about 50k (if that), not including motor and wiring harness (motec) of course. The only other piece of the puzzle I am confused about is the STI and EVO comments. People have discussed this topic many a time. Personally I know that the WRX can be competitive in TC (assuming someone has the budget to run through transmissions, which maybe a point of contension with the SCCA to let them use the STI 6-speed just as they allow the BMW's to run the E36 M3 trans), but I am far from convinced that either the STI or EVO can be race winners in GT. Yes we have all seen what the tuner population is capable of winding these two cars up to when it comes to power, but I just do not see how such highly tuned cars will be able to compete in 140 degree track temp weather such as what was just experienced at portland last weekend, and let's not forget the heat and humidity that the Petit Le Mans often endures during the month of august. I think it is just too much stress on those two cars given how few consessions the SCCA is likely to give them in order to beaf up the drivetrains.
I guess my only point is that for Subaru the WRX is a great car to race in TC when you look at the competitors in the class (Sentra Spec-V, SRT-4, Mazda6, RSX, etc), but I fail to see how an STI or EVO in any way compete for buyers in the market with Corvettes, RS6's, CTS-V's, 911's, etc. Maybe if the GT class had more 350Z's, S4's, or M3's.
| BriDrive | 07-27-2004 02:02 PM |
[QUOTE=jonmacs22]... The only other piece of the puzzle I am confused about is the STI and EVO comments... but I am far from convinced that either the STI or EVO can be race winners in GT...
...but I fail to see how an STI or EVO in any way compete for buyers in the market with Corvettes, RS6's, CTS-V's, 911's, etc. Maybe if the GT class had more 350Z's, S4's, or M3's.[/QUOTE]
If you're thinking about an STI for Speed GT.....You NEED to consult with
Roger Clark Motorsports in the UK. (IMHO)
The reason Subaru (and maybe financially strapped Mitsubishi) should get the STI & EVO into GT is because roadracing these cars is a better marketing niche here in the US. They have no problems selling to their core market based on the cars' WRC heritage and AWD blah,blah....but look around, a MAJOR majority of enthusiasts are auto-x them and trackdaying them and getting the point that these cars can be turned into real competitors. Its marketing perception on the manufacturers part. For Subaru's part, and let's face it, a team's going to need SOA support, I don't see them getting off their lumps anytime soon...their current target audience is not roadrace watchers.....I agree with someone who said early, that the Legacy GT contender is a better fit here. Indeed, if you look at SOA advertising for this car right now, they are comparing its generic performance numbers to its "car magazine" rivals like BMW and Volvo, etc.....
BriDrive
...but I fail to see how an STI or EVO in any way compete for buyers in the market with Corvettes, RS6's, CTS-V's, 911's, etc. Maybe if the GT class had more 350Z's, S4's, or M3's.[/QUOTE]
If you're thinking about an STI for Speed GT.....You NEED to consult with
Roger Clark Motorsports in the UK. (IMHO)
The reason Subaru (and maybe financially strapped Mitsubishi) should get the STI & EVO into GT is because roadracing these cars is a better marketing niche here in the US. They have no problems selling to their core market based on the cars' WRC heritage and AWD blah,blah....but look around, a MAJOR majority of enthusiasts are auto-x them and trackdaying them and getting the point that these cars can be turned into real competitors. Its marketing perception on the manufacturers part. For Subaru's part, and let's face it, a team's going to need SOA support, I don't see them getting off their lumps anytime soon...their current target audience is not roadrace watchers.....I agree with someone who said early, that the Legacy GT contender is a better fit here. Indeed, if you look at SOA advertising for this car right now, they are comparing its generic performance numbers to its "car magazine" rivals like BMW and Volvo, etc.....
BriDrive
| jonmacs22 | 07-27-2004 03:41 PM |
[QUOTE=BriDrive] The reason Subaru (and maybe financially strapped Mitsubishi) should get the STI & EVO into GT is because roadracing these cars is a better marketing niche here in the US.
Indeed, if you look at SOA advertising for this car right now, they are comparing its generic performance numbers to its "car magazine" rivals like BMW and Volvo, etc.....
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
Three points:
1. Road racing is not a solid marketing niche in the USA. There is a reason that the manufacturers are few and far between when it comes to the most popular production-based road racing series in the US (ALMS) and the second most (World Challenge). The truth is that the Return on Investment is still far greater for most circle-track series, including of all things dirt track racing. If you look at the purses and entrance fees for the various series you will see that it is close to impossible to make money in production-based road racing unless you have been sourced by a manufacturer (RTR with the Nissan Sentra, PTG with the M3, and Champion with the RS6 & S4) to build and race the vehicles.
2. I think there must be some confusion surrounding the first of the quoted comments from above. There are two divisions in World Challenge, GT and Touring. You may know this. If you do, then you should also recognize that the WRX has a far better chance of winning in Touring Car than the STI or EVO does in GT. Which feeds into my last point->
3. You are correct, Subaru is advertising their cars in comparison to other makes. HOWEVER, the car they are using in their ad campaign has for the most part been the WRX. Subaru continues, whether it be with two young males in the front seat or lance armstrong giving a speech, to push the WRX. Once again, this is why the WRX should be the racing option of SOA in the Touring Class, plus the costs to enter the Touring seen are half that of the GT class.
Jon
Indeed, if you look at SOA advertising for this car right now, they are comparing its generic performance numbers to its "car magazine" rivals like BMW and Volvo, etc.....
BriDrive[/QUOTE]
Three points:
1. Road racing is not a solid marketing niche in the USA. There is a reason that the manufacturers are few and far between when it comes to the most popular production-based road racing series in the US (ALMS) and the second most (World Challenge). The truth is that the Return on Investment is still far greater for most circle-track series, including of all things dirt track racing. If you look at the purses and entrance fees for the various series you will see that it is close to impossible to make money in production-based road racing unless you have been sourced by a manufacturer (RTR with the Nissan Sentra, PTG with the M3, and Champion with the RS6 & S4) to build and race the vehicles.
2. I think there must be some confusion surrounding the first of the quoted comments from above. There are two divisions in World Challenge, GT and Touring. You may know this. If you do, then you should also recognize that the WRX has a far better chance of winning in Touring Car than the STI or EVO does in GT. Which feeds into my last point->
3. You are correct, Subaru is advertising their cars in comparison to other makes. HOWEVER, the car they are using in their ad campaign has for the most part been the WRX. Subaru continues, whether it be with two young males in the front seat or lance armstrong giving a speech, to push the WRX. Once again, this is why the WRX should be the racing option of SOA in the Touring Class, plus the costs to enter the Touring seen are half that of the GT class.
Jon
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