| Dussander | 01-06-2003 11:49 AM |
STX with reprogrammed ECU
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This is sort of a poll of opinions for what you (the STX competitors) what you think about someone running a reprogrammed ECU in STX.
It is technically legal, but makes proving that you are not altering the boost very difficult. At the moment I'm going with a tuned Unichip, but I think the ideal solution would be a reprogrammed ECU. With the Unichip I can avoid protests by showing the Unichip without boost controller. I believe at least one person is already running a reprogrammed ECU (ChrisW ??)
Would you run it? Would you protest it?
I think it would be cool/ideal if say a tuner could make a reprogrammed ECU version number that could easily be read and also stand by his programming of that version stating that the stock boost table was used. Say Shiv creates a new ECU map, he gives it his version number and publically states, this map is for STX cars (with X and Y mods) and does not alter the stock boost map. I imagine we would need at least a lap top to read the version number.
It is technically legal, but makes proving that you are not altering the boost very difficult. At the moment I'm going with a tuned Unichip, but I think the ideal solution would be a reprogrammed ECU. With the Unichip I can avoid protests by showing the Unichip without boost controller. I believe at least one person is already running a reprogrammed ECU (ChrisW ??)
Would you run it? Would you protest it?
I think it would be cool/ideal if say a tuner could make a reprogrammed ECU version number that could easily be read and also stand by his programming of that version stating that the stock boost table was used. Say Shiv creates a new ECU map, he gives it his version number and publically states, this map is for STX cars (with X and Y mods) and does not alter the stock boost map. I imagine we would need at least a lap top to read the version number.
| Orion | 01-06-2003 12:25 PM |
Re: STX with reprogrammed ECU
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander [/i]
[B]
Would you run it? Would you protest it?
[/B][/QUOTE]
No. Yes.
After the NA guys flew off the handle about the Vishnu Chip at Nats last year, I'd avoid it personally to just not have to deal with their crying.
Basically it's too easy to make changes to boost with a software map. If it was a hardware issue, like the Vishnu Chip, I'd be interested in it. With the hardware you could CLEARLY see that the boost was/wasn't altered and you would know that the ECU is still unaltered. Just about every retuned ECU I've investigated had boost altered so I'd be prone to protest regardless of anyone's claims on the map.
[B]
Would you run it? Would you protest it?
[/B][/QUOTE]
No. Yes.
After the NA guys flew off the handle about the Vishnu Chip at Nats last year, I'd avoid it personally to just not have to deal with their crying.
Basically it's too easy to make changes to boost with a software map. If it was a hardware issue, like the Vishnu Chip, I'd be interested in it. With the hardware you could CLEARLY see that the boost was/wasn't altered and you would know that the ECU is still unaltered. Just about every retuned ECU I've investigated had boost altered so I'd be prone to protest regardless of anyone's claims on the map.
| ChrisW | 01-06-2003 01:20 PM |
Well, I am going to try it. ;)
I have tuned my ECU to keep the stock boost levels and stock boost curve.
Power levels? Not much more than I had with the unichip. The unichip was 205 at the wheels, I am now at 210. There is absolutely no hesitation with the reprogrammed ECU, no racheting of your timing as you build boost... It's all good..:D
To give you an idea of the power locked inside the ECU, I watched Shiv unlock 20hp on ignition map changes alone...:eek:
If you were to drive the car, it would not feel like it has an extra ~50hp over stock until you look at the speedo.:cool:
The problems we are going to have with protests is going to center around "what is the stock boost level?" How do you determine the stock boost level when you have an adjustable wastegate? For those that don't know, the wastegate actuator is adjustable from the factory. There are no specs that I have found to tell you what the proper actuator length is supposed to be. That is an easy way to cheat. You can get 1-2psi by doing this. Also, the exhaust you use [i]will[/i] alter the stock boost curve.
Another point is that Vishnu Tuning has detected at least 5 different "stock" ECU's from the factory. That is, same ECU, different boost maps. Also, I don't believe you can just plug in the ECU and read the maps off the ECU memory. You have to datalog it. Another point is the '03 ECU is more conservative in it's ability to learn than the '02 ECU. I have personally witness this on Vishnu's dyno with someone's stage 2 tuning.
If you hook up a calibrated boost gauge and brake load the car, the curve looks stock maintaining stock boost levels. In some respects this can be a disadvantage becuase I have to "erase" what ever performance gains in boost levels that you would normally get with a 3" vishnu stage1 turbo back exhaust.
Keep in mind I gave Shiv [i]strick[/i] instructions to go with a conservative STX map. The boost levels are stock accross the RPM range. If there have been changes to maps that are "off limits" the changes were made with in the range seen accross the different ECU's that Vishnu has seen.
So I don't know... This will kind of be the "grand experiment" assuming I can get my suspension back together :rolleyes:
There are a couple of other people running the reprogrammed ECU in STX. I am not going to say who they are...:p
If we happen to meet up at the nationals, and you want to go for a drive, we could work something out...:alien:
I have tuned my ECU to keep the stock boost levels and stock boost curve.
Power levels? Not much more than I had with the unichip. The unichip was 205 at the wheels, I am now at 210. There is absolutely no hesitation with the reprogrammed ECU, no racheting of your timing as you build boost... It's all good..:D
To give you an idea of the power locked inside the ECU, I watched Shiv unlock 20hp on ignition map changes alone...:eek:
If you were to drive the car, it would not feel like it has an extra ~50hp over stock until you look at the speedo.:cool:
The problems we are going to have with protests is going to center around "what is the stock boost level?" How do you determine the stock boost level when you have an adjustable wastegate? For those that don't know, the wastegate actuator is adjustable from the factory. There are no specs that I have found to tell you what the proper actuator length is supposed to be. That is an easy way to cheat. You can get 1-2psi by doing this. Also, the exhaust you use [i]will[/i] alter the stock boost curve.
Another point is that Vishnu Tuning has detected at least 5 different "stock" ECU's from the factory. That is, same ECU, different boost maps. Also, I don't believe you can just plug in the ECU and read the maps off the ECU memory. You have to datalog it. Another point is the '03 ECU is more conservative in it's ability to learn than the '02 ECU. I have personally witness this on Vishnu's dyno with someone's stage 2 tuning.
If you hook up a calibrated boost gauge and brake load the car, the curve looks stock maintaining stock boost levels. In some respects this can be a disadvantage becuase I have to "erase" what ever performance gains in boost levels that you would normally get with a 3" vishnu stage1 turbo back exhaust.
Keep in mind I gave Shiv [i]strick[/i] instructions to go with a conservative STX map. The boost levels are stock accross the RPM range. If there have been changes to maps that are "off limits" the changes were made with in the range seen accross the different ECU's that Vishnu has seen.
So I don't know... This will kind of be the "grand experiment" assuming I can get my suspension back together :rolleyes:
There are a couple of other people running the reprogrammed ECU in STX. I am not going to say who they are...:p
If we happen to meet up at the nationals, and you want to go for a drive, we could work something out...:alien:
| KC | 01-06-2003 01:28 PM |
How about a signed affedavit by shiv, and notorized that it has the Stock boost maps? :)
--kC
--kC
| Orion | 01-06-2003 01:38 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]How about a signed affedavit by shiv, and notorized that it has the Stock boost maps? :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, if kC is gonna run one then I'll change my mind.;)
Honestly though, I think it's a can of worms I'm not ready to deal with. I'd be happy with a Shiv tuned Unichip setup that way there's no "grey" areas to contend with. Either the boost module is there or it isn't.
[B]How about a signed affedavit by shiv, and notorized that it has the Stock boost maps? :)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, if kC is gonna run one then I'll change my mind.;)
Honestly though, I think it's a can of worms I'm not ready to deal with. I'd be happy with a Shiv tuned Unichip setup that way there's no "grey" areas to contend with. Either the boost module is there or it isn't.
| KC | 01-06-2003 02:12 PM |
Right. However, the proof is on the protester that it's illegal. If we can do anything to help them realize that we went out of our way to get the stock boost maps... DOCUMENTATION... then it will help alleivate their fears.
And just them 'saying' it's illegal won't cut water. If we can back it up with documentation from Shiv, at the protest booth, that it has the stock boost maps, that may be enough for the protest committe to see we actually thought about it, and went out of our way to make sure we were legal.
And how is a protester going to prove that it's a reprogrammed ECU? Where are they going to send it to be read?
--kC
And just them 'saying' it's illegal won't cut water. If we can back it up with documentation from Shiv, at the protest booth, that it has the stock boost maps, that may be enough for the protest committe to see we actually thought about it, and went out of our way to make sure we were legal.
And how is a protester going to prove that it's a reprogrammed ECU? Where are they going to send it to be read?
--kC
| Subdued | 01-06-2003 02:45 PM |
For a lot of racers the choice to run the flashed ECU will be determined by budget. I haven't looked into the pricing, but if it will give me better (smoother) power gains than a Unichip for a like price then I might do it. If there is no way to show proof of the altered boost maps I would not bother protesting. It would be a mute point. I think that could possibly be a bad situation.
| Dussander | 01-06-2003 03:06 PM |
If there are different Boost tables for various ECUs, couldn't Shiv go and get the best and use it for all of them?
I could either get my Unichip tuned for $X or go with a reprogrammed ECU for $Y, but I expect X is close to Y. I couldn't however drive down to visit Shiv and get a custom map, so I would be stuck with one he has already done (like ChrisW's). Hum..
So Tom, where are you and what do you have to say about this? :)
I could either get my Unichip tuned for $X or go with a reprogrammed ECU for $Y, but I expect X is close to Y. I couldn't however drive down to visit Shiv and get a custom map, so I would be stuck with one he has already done (like ChrisW's). Hum..
So Tom, where are you and what do you have to say about this? :)
| ChrisW | 01-06-2003 05:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander [/i]
[B]If there are different Boost tables for various ECUs, couldn't Shiv go and get the best and use it for all of them?
I could either get my Unichip tuned for $X or go with a reprogrammed ECU for $Y, but I expect X is close to Y. I couldn't however drive down to visit Shiv and get a custom map, so I would be stuck with one he has already done (like ChrisW's). Hum..
So Tom, where are you and what do you have to say about this? :) [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
I actually asked Shiv to do just that. But it's not that simple. Aparently you cannot just copy one set of maps from one ECU to another. But you can manually set the curves through the ECUTEK software. That goes with what I was saying about not being able to profile a stock ECU to a reprogrammed one with out datalogging both ECU's.
[B]If there are different Boost tables for various ECUs, couldn't Shiv go and get the best and use it for all of them?
I could either get my Unichip tuned for $X or go with a reprogrammed ECU for $Y, but I expect X is close to Y. I couldn't however drive down to visit Shiv and get a custom map, so I would be stuck with one he has already done (like ChrisW's). Hum..
So Tom, where are you and what do you have to say about this? :) [/B][/QUOTE]
:lol:
I actually asked Shiv to do just that. But it's not that simple. Aparently you cannot just copy one set of maps from one ECU to another. But you can manually set the curves through the ECUTEK software. That goes with what I was saying about not being able to profile a stock ECU to a reprogrammed one with out datalogging both ECU's.
| MNbiker | 01-06-2003 08:28 PM |
Not that I'll be a threat to anyone this year (as an autox noob), but I'm planning to get an STX-legal reflash from Shiv. It appears to be the cleanest & best performing option currently available. I'm planning to get a document from Shiv, stating the boost map hasn't been modified & call it good.
As for using a re-flash - why not? There are LOTS of other re-flashed ECU's being used in other cars. For instance, I had a Shark Injector reflash for my E46 BMW 3-series (very cool product by the way - I wish someone would come up with a similar product for the Rex).
--Steve
(looking forward to my stealth Vishnu reflash......)
As for using a re-flash - why not? There are LOTS of other re-flashed ECU's being used in other cars. For instance, I had a Shark Injector reflash for my E46 BMW 3-series (very cool product by the way - I wish someone would come up with a similar product for the Rex).
--Steve
(looking forward to my stealth Vishnu reflash......)
| Kostamojen | 01-07-2003 01:53 AM |
Darn this OBD-1! :mad:
| trhoppe | 01-07-2003 09:59 AM |
Well I have not determined yet which way I will go. Right now I have the vishnu unichip tuned for stock boost. Shiv told me that I can get a 20hp gain over that by a remapped ecutek with the stock boost levels.
Dilemna.
Right now with my exhaust I have a 16psi spike, then 15psi, and only a dropoff to about 10-11psi. Thats not the "stock" boost curve, but I have not touched ANYTHING relating to the boost. This is purely from the exhaust changes.
If I run the unichip as I do now, I don't have to worry about it, because there is nothing on the car that could alter boost, and a protest will NOT stand up.
If I run the ecutek, then I will have to do something about this because its just a protest waiting to happen.
I think I will run the Unichip for now. If I get beat, and I think that Im getting beat because Im down 10-15hp, then the unichip will come out and the ecutek will go in.
-Tom
Dilemna.
Right now with my exhaust I have a 16psi spike, then 15psi, and only a dropoff to about 10-11psi. Thats not the "stock" boost curve, but I have not touched ANYTHING relating to the boost. This is purely from the exhaust changes.
If I run the unichip as I do now, I don't have to worry about it, because there is nothing on the car that could alter boost, and a protest will NOT stand up.
If I run the ecutek, then I will have to do something about this because its just a protest waiting to happen.
I think I will run the Unichip for now. If I get beat, and I think that Im getting beat because Im down 10-15hp, then the unichip will come out and the ecutek will go in.
-Tom
| KC | 01-07-2003 11:26 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]If I get beat, and I think that Im getting beat because Im down 10-15hp, then the unichip will come out and the ecutek will go in.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]Drive better. :lol:
[B]If I get beat, and I think that Im getting beat because Im down 10-15hp, then the unichip will come out and the ecutek will go in.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]Drive better. :lol:
| Dussander | 01-07-2003 11:57 AM |
So, will anyone protest one of us in this thread if we are running a reprogrammed ECU at National/Pro Solo events? We can start a list of names of people who swear they are running stock boost, reprogrammed ECUs. I may if I can get it in time, since it will save me the cost of having my Unichip tuned.
For those I will see in Ft. Myers, here is my name:
Michael Fiyak
If you see that name DFL on the results, then uh, that's not my name.
:D
For those I will see in Ft. Myers, here is my name:
Michael Fiyak
If you see that name DFL on the results, then uh, that's not my name.
:D
| KC | 01-07-2003 01:33 PM |
I don't think you'd have any protests from Scooby folk... it's the other makes in STX that you'd have to worry about.
| TheWRX | 01-07-2003 07:22 PM |
The part that bothers me most is that the tuners don't seem to care much about rules. Here are a few quotes from Shiv when his "STX legal" map was discussed:
[QUOTE]And even then, it's only illegal if they find out. Don't know how they would though :devil: [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]While I'll leave boost levels stock (with stock-like taper), I can raise the fuel cut a few hundred RPM and allow for more boost at lower throttle positions above 4000rpm.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]But I don't think anyone will be doing any partial-throttle boost level testing. And if so, any deviation from stock can be passed off as a result of exhaust mods :)[/QUOTE]
The rules are clear, you can only modify fuel and timing, you can't change the boost maps at all. And it sounds very much like Shiv is changing the boost maps, while tyring to keep the boost curves at full throttle similar. Even copying a stock boost map from another car would seem very questionable.
I certainly don't plan to file any protests, I would feel ridiculous to protest people who simply drive much better than I do (as almost everybody at national events will). But frankly, I won't believe that many of the cars with remapped ECUs will be legal, and it does leave a bitter taste.
#42 STX
[QUOTE]And even then, it's only illegal if they find out. Don't know how they would though :devil: [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]While I'll leave boost levels stock (with stock-like taper), I can raise the fuel cut a few hundred RPM and allow for more boost at lower throttle positions above 4000rpm.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]But I don't think anyone will be doing any partial-throttle boost level testing. And if so, any deviation from stock can be passed off as a result of exhaust mods :)[/QUOTE]
The rules are clear, you can only modify fuel and timing, you can't change the boost maps at all. And it sounds very much like Shiv is changing the boost maps, while tyring to keep the boost curves at full throttle similar. Even copying a stock boost map from another car would seem very questionable.
I certainly don't plan to file any protests, I would feel ridiculous to protest people who simply drive much better than I do (as almost everybody at national events will). But frankly, I won't believe that many of the cars with remapped ECUs will be legal, and it does leave a bitter taste.
#42 STX
| ChrisW | 01-07-2003 08:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]The part that bothers me most is that the tuners don't seem to care much about rules. Here are a few quotes from Shiv when his "STX legal" map was discussed:
The rules are clear, you can only modify fuel and timing, you can't change the boost maps at all. And it sounds very much like Shiv is changing the boost maps, while tyring to keep the boost curves at full throttle similar. Even copying a stock boost map from another car would seem very questionable.
#42 STX [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, you kind hit on a catch 22. The rule specifically does not say that the boost maps cannot be changed. It does say that the stock boost curve and stock boost levels have to remain the same as stock.
So in the strictest interpretation, this actually would hurt those of us who decide to do the ECU reprogram because we would be forced to negate any changes to the boost curve changes due to exhaust mods (such as trhoppe's boost spike).
yes I am uncomfortable with what Shiv was saying, especially because the rule is so new. Shiv and I talked at length on this issue, but I made it clear on what I wanted. Until I can verify this independantly, we will just have to trust that the ECU was tuned the way I asked it to be. To develop this map took alot of dyno time (2 hours and a lunch break), paid for by yours truely. Shiv found it challenging to get the most out of the ECU with the restrictions I placed upon him by the STX rules.
You cannot say that the stock boost maps cannot be changed because Vishnu has already seen a variation of the stock boost map between the '02 and '03 ECU. Further more, there are variations between '02 maps. So which do you use? If there is so much variance, what is stock? Tell me that answer and I will make sure the ECU is apropriately programmed. but you have to be 110% sure of that answer.
If you tell me that I have to use stock boost map A I can easily show you stock boost map B that is significantly different. Both are from the factory, unmolested. Which is correct?
I guess this is all part of racing, trying to figure out the limits of the rules. I do wish that the rules were more specific, but they are what they are.
[B]The part that bothers me most is that the tuners don't seem to care much about rules. Here are a few quotes from Shiv when his "STX legal" map was discussed:
The rules are clear, you can only modify fuel and timing, you can't change the boost maps at all. And it sounds very much like Shiv is changing the boost maps, while tyring to keep the boost curves at full throttle similar. Even copying a stock boost map from another car would seem very questionable.
#42 STX [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, you kind hit on a catch 22. The rule specifically does not say that the boost maps cannot be changed. It does say that the stock boost curve and stock boost levels have to remain the same as stock.
So in the strictest interpretation, this actually would hurt those of us who decide to do the ECU reprogram because we would be forced to negate any changes to the boost curve changes due to exhaust mods (such as trhoppe's boost spike).
yes I am uncomfortable with what Shiv was saying, especially because the rule is so new. Shiv and I talked at length on this issue, but I made it clear on what I wanted. Until I can verify this independantly, we will just have to trust that the ECU was tuned the way I asked it to be. To develop this map took alot of dyno time (2 hours and a lunch break), paid for by yours truely. Shiv found it challenging to get the most out of the ECU with the restrictions I placed upon him by the STX rules.
You cannot say that the stock boost maps cannot be changed because Vishnu has already seen a variation of the stock boost map between the '02 and '03 ECU. Further more, there are variations between '02 maps. So which do you use? If there is so much variance, what is stock? Tell me that answer and I will make sure the ECU is apropriately programmed. but you have to be 110% sure of that answer.
If you tell me that I have to use stock boost map A I can easily show you stock boost map B that is significantly different. Both are from the factory, unmolested. Which is correct?
I guess this is all part of racing, trying to figure out the limits of the rules. I do wish that the rules were more specific, but they are what they are.
| TheWRX | 01-07-2003 09:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]Further more, there are variations between '02 maps. So which do you use? If there is so much variance, what is stock?[/B][/QUOTE]
My immediate reaction would be: Stock is the map that was on your ECU when you bought your car. But that raises an interesting question: Can you replace a part of your car with an "identical" part that isn't really identical? If the same car came with different software/map versions on the ECU, could you swap ECUs? Well, if your ECU was broken, they couldn't stop you from replacing it...
When I said that you couldn't modify boost maps at all, that came from "no changes to [..] or boost controls are permitted" in rule 17.10.D. I interpreted changing the boost maps as changing boost control.
Thanks for making such an effort to conform to the rules! This seems like a tricky one, I'm somewhat beyond my level of knowledge here. It certainly sounds like you're trying very hard to figure it out and do the right thing. :cool:
[B]Further more, there are variations between '02 maps. So which do you use? If there is so much variance, what is stock?[/B][/QUOTE]
My immediate reaction would be: Stock is the map that was on your ECU when you bought your car. But that raises an interesting question: Can you replace a part of your car with an "identical" part that isn't really identical? If the same car came with different software/map versions on the ECU, could you swap ECUs? Well, if your ECU was broken, they couldn't stop you from replacing it...
When I said that you couldn't modify boost maps at all, that came from "no changes to [..] or boost controls are permitted" in rule 17.10.D. I interpreted changing the boost maps as changing boost control.
Thanks for making such an effort to conform to the rules! This seems like a tricky one, I'm somewhat beyond my level of knowledge here. It certainly sounds like you're trying very hard to figure it out and do the right thing. :cool:
| trhoppe | 01-07-2003 09:35 PM |
[QUOTE]Thanks for making such an effort to conform to the rules! This seems like a tricky one, I'm somewhat beyond my level of knowledge here. It certainly sounds like you're trying very hard to figure it out and do the right thing.[/QUOTE] Chris is definetly doing his part to be legal. If everyone was like this, we would have ANY problems.
IMHO this is how a protest will go because this is what happened to ME when I got protested for higher boost last year at Nationals.
1) put a standardized SCCA boost gauge on a car that both drivers agree is stock. In my case it was the protestors (Larry Fine's) car. We agreed that if my car had lower or the same boost as his, he would drop the protest. In your case it could be a brand new WRX off the lot. They will even test 2 different new cars off the lot to make sure there are no variables.
2) have a SCCA official hook up the boost gauge and ride in the car while the protestor drives the car and the protestee sits in the back. Check the boost levels at 4, 5, 6K RPM in 1st and 2nd gears
3) put said boost gauge on the protestees (my) car
4) repeat test drive in my car with the same variables. Larry Driving, Heyward in the passenger seat, me in the back. Check boost levels at same RPM levels.
If the cars are different, how MUCH are they different. 1 psi or so can be attributed to "differences". If the car that is being protested makes 16-17psi then it tapers to 12, you know its illegal. If it spikes to 16, drops off to 14.5 and then tapers to 10, its good to go. You will see the same behavior, without the spike, on a stock WRX. The spike will be there because of the exhaust.
In my case my car made 8psi in 1st and didnt really drop off. In 2nd it make 13.5psi, dropped to like 11 and then 8 by redline. Larry's made 10psi in 1st and didnt really drop. In 2nd his made 15psi, dropped to 12-13 and then 10 by redline.
-Tom
IMHO this is how a protest will go because this is what happened to ME when I got protested for higher boost last year at Nationals.
1) put a standardized SCCA boost gauge on a car that both drivers agree is stock. In my case it was the protestors (Larry Fine's) car. We agreed that if my car had lower or the same boost as his, he would drop the protest. In your case it could be a brand new WRX off the lot. They will even test 2 different new cars off the lot to make sure there are no variables.
2) have a SCCA official hook up the boost gauge and ride in the car while the protestor drives the car and the protestee sits in the back. Check the boost levels at 4, 5, 6K RPM in 1st and 2nd gears
3) put said boost gauge on the protestees (my) car
4) repeat test drive in my car with the same variables. Larry Driving, Heyward in the passenger seat, me in the back. Check boost levels at same RPM levels.
If the cars are different, how MUCH are they different. 1 psi or so can be attributed to "differences". If the car that is being protested makes 16-17psi then it tapers to 12, you know its illegal. If it spikes to 16, drops off to 14.5 and then tapers to 10, its good to go. You will see the same behavior, without the spike, on a stock WRX. The spike will be there because of the exhaust.
In my case my car made 8psi in 1st and didnt really drop off. In 2nd it make 13.5psi, dropped to like 11 and then 8 by redline. Larry's made 10psi in 1st and didnt really drop. In 2nd his made 15psi, dropped to 12-13 and then 10 by redline.
-Tom
| AWMIII | 01-08-2003 09:35 AM |
Deleted
| AWMIII | 01-08-2003 10:12 AM |
double deleted
| KC | 01-08-2003 10:27 AM |
Edit: Thank you.
--kC
--kC
| trhoppe | 01-08-2003 10:33 AM |
Im not trying to call names or anyhting, I forgot I quoted his post.
Anyways, it doesnt matter if its a scooby driver or whatever. If someone is cheating, I don't care WHAT car they are in, I will be protesting them.
I posted the procedure for the way that a protest will go. I asked Howard about this and he backed me up. If you plan to be nationally competitive, are new at autoxing, are fast, and are running an ECUtek, prepare to get protested for higher boost.
-Tom
Anyways, it doesnt matter if its a scooby driver or whatever. If someone is cheating, I don't care WHAT car they are in, I will be protesting them.
I posted the procedure for the way that a protest will go. I asked Howard about this and he backed me up. If you plan to be nationally competitive, are new at autoxing, are fast, and are running an ECUtek, prepare to get protested for higher boost.
-Tom
| ChrisW | 01-08-2003 10:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Guys? Can you please edit your posts? We don't need no stinking fights within the class. If anything this name calling and finger pointing will only make it MORE difficult. And AWMIII? Aren't you going to or already are in SM? This isn't your fight. Within the class, I'd like to be friends 1st, competitors second.
Please?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
damm straight KC.
[B]Guys? Can you please edit your posts? We don't need no stinking fights within the class. If anything this name calling and finger pointing will only make it MORE difficult. And AWMIII? Aren't you going to or already are in SM? This isn't your fight. Within the class, I'd like to be friends 1st, competitors second.
Please?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
damm straight KC.
| ChrisW | 01-22-2003 06:28 PM |
dyno session scans
�
�
Hey all,
due to unrelenting presure, I have tracked down a scanner and scanned the dyno plots that I have
check it out [URL=http://66.123.66.130/dyno]the plots[/URL]
if you have question or comments I encourage you to speak up. The last thing I want to do is get up to the nationals and get DQ'ed over a misunderstanding.
due to unrelenting presure, I have tracked down a scanner and scanned the dyno plots that I have
check it out [URL=http://66.123.66.130/dyno]the plots[/URL]
if you have question or comments I encourage you to speak up. The last thing I want to do is get up to the nationals and get DQ'ed over a misunderstanding.
| ChrisW | 01-22-2003 06:32 PM |
ttt
| trhoppe | 01-22-2003 06:49 PM |
[QUOTE]due to unrelenting presure, I have tracked down a scanner and scanned the dyno plots that I have [/QUOTE] Uhhm, that wasnt because of my post right? I was just trying to ask nicely :)
All I have to say is "wow, does my car make more boost then that". I get a 16psi spike, then drops down to 14.5 and then down to 10 and holds 9 to redline......
Funny thing is, I bet we are making the same amount of power because of your fuel, timing and knock tuning
:)
-Tom
All I have to say is "wow, does my car make more boost then that". I get a 16psi spike, then drops down to 14.5 and then down to 10 and holds 9 to redline......
Funny thing is, I bet we are making the same amount of power because of your fuel, timing and knock tuning
:)
-Tom
| ChrisW | 01-22-2003 07:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B] Uhhm, that wasnt because of my post right? I was just trying to ask nicely :)
[/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: I was just kidding, no harm done. :)
[B][QUOTE]
All I have to say is "wow, does my car make more boost then that". I get a 16psi spike, then drops down to 14.5 and then down to 10 and holds 9 to redline......
Funny thing is, I bet we are making the same amount of power because of your fuel, timing and knock tuning
:)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
See that's what I feel. The difference you get from the changes in ignition and fuel changes alone made a bigger impact than the unichip fully tuned.
[B] Uhhm, that wasnt because of my post right? I was just trying to ask nicely :)
[/B][/QUOTE]
:lol: I was just kidding, no harm done. :)
[B][QUOTE]
All I have to say is "wow, does my car make more boost then that". I get a 16psi spike, then drops down to 14.5 and then down to 10 and holds 9 to redline......
Funny thing is, I bet we are making the same amount of power because of your fuel, timing and knock tuning
:)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
See that's what I feel. The difference you get from the changes in ignition and fuel changes alone made a bigger impact than the unichip fully tuned.
| trhoppe | 01-22-2003 07:11 PM |
Now if everyone was as honest as you then we would have no protests :lol:
| MNbiker | 01-22-2003 09:05 PM |
Re: dyno session scans
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]Hey all,
due to unrelenting presure, I have tracked down a scanner and scanned the dyno plots that I have
check it out [URL=http://66.123.66.130/dyno]the plots[/URL]
if you have question or comments I encourage you to speak up. The last thing I want to do is get up to the nationals and get DQ'ed over a misunderstanding. [/B][/QUOTE]
Chris,
Thanks for the post! gotta love the healthy increases & nice flat torque curve - Shiv does good work!
I agree with Tom - those are very conservative boost numbers. Someone would be hard-pressed to protest your boost levels.
-Steve
[B]Hey all,
due to unrelenting presure, I have tracked down a scanner and scanned the dyno plots that I have
check it out [URL=http://66.123.66.130/dyno]the plots[/URL]
if you have question or comments I encourage you to speak up. The last thing I want to do is get up to the nationals and get DQ'ed over a misunderstanding. [/B][/QUOTE]
Chris,
Thanks for the post! gotta love the healthy increases & nice flat torque curve - Shiv does good work!
I agree with Tom - those are very conservative boost numbers. Someone would be hard-pressed to protest your boost levels.
-Steve
| Orion | 01-23-2003 12:24 AM |
Re: Re: dyno session scans
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
Chris,
Thanks for the post! gotta love the healthy increases & nice flat torque curve - Shiv does good work!
I agree with Tom - those are very conservative boost numbers. Someone would be hard-pressed to protest your boost levels.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
It has nothing to do with what the plot says on those boost levels. It's all about the fact that you have the "ability" to change the boost levels.
The more I read, the more I don't think they'll be legal. We've discussed this in the past with the UTEC and others. Just because you have a "stock looking" curve doesn't mean it's legal.
You have the ABILITY to make changes to the curve, that's what will hold up.
[B]
Chris,
Thanks for the post! gotta love the healthy increases & nice flat torque curve - Shiv does good work!
I agree with Tom - those are very conservative boost numbers. Someone would be hard-pressed to protest your boost levels.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
It has nothing to do with what the plot says on those boost levels. It's all about the fact that you have the "ability" to change the boost levels.
The more I read, the more I don't think they'll be legal. We've discussed this in the past with the UTEC and others. Just because you have a "stock looking" curve doesn't mean it's legal.
You have the ABILITY to make changes to the curve, that's what will hold up.
| zzyzx | 01-23-2003 01:01 AM |
Um, no. Using that logic, wheels would be illegal because you have the ability to change them - quickly, I might add. ;) :lol:
Clearly you've never been in a protest situation, or close enough to it to understand how things actually happen in reality...
Now, if somebody had install a dial for boost pressure in their cabin and could change it on a whim, then that would be illegal.
I don't see people reflashing their ECUs between runs, or prior to impound, do you?
- Steve
Clearly you've never been in a protest situation, or close enough to it to understand how things actually happen in reality...
Now, if somebody had install a dial for boost pressure in their cabin and could change it on a whim, then that would be illegal.
I don't see people reflashing their ECUs between runs, or prior to impound, do you?
- Steve
| MNbiker | 01-23-2003 03:29 AM |
Re: Re: Re: dyno session scans
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]Just because you have a "stock looking" curve doesn't mean it's legal.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'd agree with this. However, if that "stock looking" curve is proven out by multi-car boost meter verification, as described by Tom, I don't see how a protest would be upheld.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]You have the ABILITY to make changes to the curve, that's what will hold up. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't buy this argument at all. The rules specifically allow re-flashes: "reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing". The rules also say you can't change the "boost levels" or "boost controls", so related parameters are clearly off-limits in performing re-flashes.
How, exactly, are you going to quickly change an ECUTEK re-flash? ECUTEK has no provisions I'm aware of for multiple maps at this time, so you'd have to use the full-blown tuner's re-flash application to change mapping. I assume some type of map changing tool will crop up eventually (ala the Shark Injector), but it will undoubtedly involve some hardware that would be easily spotted by other competitors & race officials (ODB II plugs are pretty distinctive).
Just my $.02
-Steve
[B]Just because you have a "stock looking" curve doesn't mean it's legal.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'd agree with this. However, if that "stock looking" curve is proven out by multi-car boost meter verification, as described by Tom, I don't see how a protest would be upheld.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]You have the ABILITY to make changes to the curve, that's what will hold up. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't buy this argument at all. The rules specifically allow re-flashes: "reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing". The rules also say you can't change the "boost levels" or "boost controls", so related parameters are clearly off-limits in performing re-flashes.
How, exactly, are you going to quickly change an ECUTEK re-flash? ECUTEK has no provisions I'm aware of for multiple maps at this time, so you'd have to use the full-blown tuner's re-flash application to change mapping. I assume some type of map changing tool will crop up eventually (ala the Shark Injector), but it will undoubtedly involve some hardware that would be easily spotted by other competitors & race officials (ODB II plugs are pretty distinctive).
Just my $.02
-Steve
| Dussander | 01-23-2003 12:42 PM |
It would be easier to pull out a MBC out of your engine then reprogram your ECUTEK ECU.
| Orion | 01-23-2003 06:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]Clearly you've never been in a protest situation, or close enough to it to understand how things actually happen in reality...
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
You're exactly right, I don't have experience with protests. I'm simply playing devil's advocate.
[B]Clearly you've never been in a protest situation, or close enough to it to understand how things actually happen in reality...
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
You're exactly right, I don't have experience with protests. I'm simply playing devil's advocate.
| MNbiker | 01-23-2003 06:52 PM |
I just thought of something that sort of pertains to this discussion. (Yes I do occasionally have thoughts, even though a recent study indicates I have a 70% chance of reduced mental capacity, due to binge drinking in younger years):eek:
Do you lose the ECU's learning with an ECUTEK reflash, like you do with a reset? If so, then reflashes aren't something you'd want to do too often, other than during a tuning session. Sounds like a good question for Shiv....
-Steve
Do you lose the ECU's learning with an ECUTEK reflash, like you do with a reset? If so, then reflashes aren't something you'd want to do too often, other than during a tuning session. Sounds like a good question for Shiv....
-Steve
| ChrisW | 01-23-2003 07:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]I just thought of something that sort of pertains to this discussion. (Yes I do occasionally have thoughts, even though a recent study indicates I have a 70% chance of reduced mental capacity, due to binge drinking in younger years):eek:
Do you lose the ECU's learning with an ECUTEK reflash, like you do with a reset? If so, then reflashes aren't something you'd want to do too often, other than during a tuning session. Sounds like a good question for Shiv....
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
No, so far the learning abilities are still there.:alien:
[B]I just thought of something that sort of pertains to this discussion. (Yes I do occasionally have thoughts, even though a recent study indicates I have a 70% chance of reduced mental capacity, due to binge drinking in younger years):eek:
Do you lose the ECU's learning with an ECUTEK reflash, like you do with a reset? If so, then reflashes aren't something you'd want to do too often, other than during a tuning session. Sounds like a good question for Shiv....
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
No, so far the learning abilities are still there.:alien:
| OedipusWRX | 01-24-2003 04:16 PM |
Not only are the learning properties still there, but Shiv just recently posted a way to make the computer learn really fast. The reflashed ECU can learn in 10 minutes what it normally takes 2 weeks to learn. Check out this thread: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=302047&highlight=vishnu+learn[/url]
| BIGSKYWRX | 01-26-2003 10:59 PM |
Chris,
I looked at your dyno plots, are those figures to the wheels? I've been looking at a lot of dyno plots of late and I almost fell off my chair when I saw yours.
Just as a comparison (these were also on Shiv's dyno w/ ecutek reflash)
He compared a oe TD 04, VF 23, VF 30 all w/ uppipe/tb exhausts/ic hoses/pulleys- the 23&30 w/ injectors/pump, TD04 running 16psi, 23&30 running 17psi
TD04- hp 206, tq 212
VF23- hp234, tq 222
VF30- hp247, tq 210
yours-hp 285, tq 269:eek: , tell me it ain't so!
Big Sky
I looked at your dyno plots, are those figures to the wheels? I've been looking at a lot of dyno plots of late and I almost fell off my chair when I saw yours.
Just as a comparison (these were also on Shiv's dyno w/ ecutek reflash)
He compared a oe TD 04, VF 23, VF 30 all w/ uppipe/tb exhausts/ic hoses/pulleys- the 23&30 w/ injectors/pump, TD04 running 16psi, 23&30 running 17psi
TD04- hp 206, tq 212
VF23- hp234, tq 222
VF30- hp247, tq 210
yours-hp 285, tq 269:eek: , tell me it ain't so!
Big Sky
| Dussander | 01-26-2003 11:37 PM |
Those numbers are projected at the flywheel numbers. I have the same mods and ECUTek map and I got about 210 at the wheels which is ~ what you see on Chris's dyno chart at the flywheel.
stock boost, stock turbo, etc, etc.
[IMG]http://home.hiwaay.net/~teamtac/images/uploaded/scan001s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://home.hiwaay.net/~teamtac/images/uploaded/scan002s.jpg[/IMG]
stock boost, stock turbo, etc, etc.
[IMG]http://home.hiwaay.net/~teamtac/images/uploaded/scan001s.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://home.hiwaay.net/~teamtac/images/uploaded/scan002s.jpg[/IMG]
| ChrisW | 01-27-2003 12:38 AM |
BIGSKYWRX,
that 285.4hp is estimated crank hp. the wheel hp was 210.x... I don't have a dyno chart that explicitly displayed this number.
Dussander, Nice dyno plots! Looks familar:p
I got my first test in competition today. My co-driver, PaulC, got second, with a 53.620. 1 10th out of first, 2 10ths behind the winning STS civic driven by a national caliber driver:cool:
Me: I was sucking really bad in the mid 56's until I just decided on my last run to "slow down and take it easy".... I gained 1.8 seconds to finish with a 54.322.
With my 235/40/17 michilen pilots and the new low end torque with the re-flash, the WRX had great acceleration coming out of the corner with [b]zero[/i] hessitation. It's hard to say how much the re-flash helped or hurt me. I am on new higher spring rates, street tires, with 210whp.... Not a recipe for grip:D My biggest problem was treating my michilens like race rubber. The speed is there, but I have to get rid of my old race rubber bad habits, and I have to be a whole lot smoother. Oh yeah, I think that brake upgrade is in order....
A little off topic, now the only scary part about the autox was leaving. I was followed by a Porche GT-2 on cold hoosiers... The owner was warming them on the street and spun out behind me on the cold tires, nearly rear-ending me in the process. I happened to look in the rear view mirror to see this grey porche gt-2 sideways coming at me at a high rate of velocity... That new found acceleration was put to the test as I watched the porche slide to a stop right before the curbs that were much higher than the splitter element on the front end.:eek:
that 285.4hp is estimated crank hp. the wheel hp was 210.x... I don't have a dyno chart that explicitly displayed this number.
Dussander, Nice dyno plots! Looks familar:p
I got my first test in competition today. My co-driver, PaulC, got second, with a 53.620. 1 10th out of first, 2 10ths behind the winning STS civic driven by a national caliber driver:cool:
Me: I was sucking really bad in the mid 56's until I just decided on my last run to "slow down and take it easy".... I gained 1.8 seconds to finish with a 54.322.
With my 235/40/17 michilen pilots and the new low end torque with the re-flash, the WRX had great acceleration coming out of the corner with [b]zero[/i] hessitation. It's hard to say how much the re-flash helped or hurt me. I am on new higher spring rates, street tires, with 210whp.... Not a recipe for grip:D My biggest problem was treating my michilens like race rubber. The speed is there, but I have to get rid of my old race rubber bad habits, and I have to be a whole lot smoother. Oh yeah, I think that brake upgrade is in order....
A little off topic, now the only scary part about the autox was leaving. I was followed by a Porche GT-2 on cold hoosiers... The owner was warming them on the street and spun out behind me on the cold tires, nearly rear-ending me in the process. I happened to look in the rear view mirror to see this grey porche gt-2 sideways coming at me at a high rate of velocity... That new found acceleration was put to the test as I watched the porche slide to a stop right before the curbs that were much higher than the splitter element on the front end.:eek:
| KC | 01-27-2003 08:56 AM |
Do you guys not have a speech at the drivers meeting about taking it easy in the surrounding area? We always do because we can lose the site for antics like that.
I would have said something to the Auto-x chair right after that.
--0kC
I would have said something to the Auto-x chair right after that.
--0kC
| trhoppe | 01-27-2003 09:20 AM |
[QUOTE]behind the winning STS civic driven by a national caliber driver[/QUOTE] HeHe, and who was that driver?
You guys suck! I can't run any events until March dammit!
-Tom
You guys suck! I can't run any events until March dammit!
-Tom
| AWMIII | 01-27-2003 09:37 AM |
Tom-
I ran last week in Philly with 2 broken toes.
I ran last week in Philly with 2 broken toes.
| BIGSKYWRX | 01-27-2003 09:53 AM |
Chris, Dussander- Thanks- I can get back in the chair I fell out of (only slight bruising-;) ). I see boost is coming on nice and early:D .
Chris your 7.5"s w/ the 235/40's? How is that working out? Do you feel the "shorter" gearing w/ them? Fit wise?
Thanks a bunch.
Big Sky
Chris your 7.5"s w/ the 235/40's? How is that working out? Do you feel the "shorter" gearing w/ them? Fit wise?
Thanks a bunch.
Big Sky
| ChrisW | 01-27-2003 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Do you guys not have a speech at the drivers meeting about taking it easy in the surrounding area? We always do because we can lose the site for antics like that.
I would have said something to the Auto-x chair right after that.
--0kC [/B][/QUOTE]
yes we do, he should have known better.:rolleyes: I would have said something if I had not been entering the onramp to the highway.... I'll probably mention something to him at the next event in Feb.
Sucks too, he and his brother both have GT-2's and dont' give out rides:(
trhoppe,
the driver was Don Ebaugh, drives a bright red 95 civic.
BigSky,
The fit is excellent, I have so much room in the fender wells, I would almost say that my setup would work on a wagon
As far as the gearing, I think going with a 245/4x/17 is a mistake, you loose too much gearing. Granted I still have to get used to street tires again, but in my region (san francisco) no one went with the 245 sized tire, but stuck with 215/45/16. There are very few competitive STX prepped WRX's running 17 in rims. I am running the widest tire at a 235. If the numbers stay the way they are the SFR STX class should be very interesting. We had 8 WRX's entered in STX yesterday, mostly sedans, but with a couple of wagons in the mix.
[B]Do you guys not have a speech at the drivers meeting about taking it easy in the surrounding area? We always do because we can lose the site for antics like that.
I would have said something to the Auto-x chair right after that.
--0kC [/B][/QUOTE]
yes we do, he should have known better.:rolleyes: I would have said something if I had not been entering the onramp to the highway.... I'll probably mention something to him at the next event in Feb.
Sucks too, he and his brother both have GT-2's and dont' give out rides:(
trhoppe,
the driver was Don Ebaugh, drives a bright red 95 civic.
BigSky,
The fit is excellent, I have so much room in the fender wells, I would almost say that my setup would work on a wagon
As far as the gearing, I think going with a 245/4x/17 is a mistake, you loose too much gearing. Granted I still have to get used to street tires again, but in my region (san francisco) no one went with the 245 sized tire, but stuck with 215/45/16. There are very few competitive STX prepped WRX's running 17 in rims. I am running the widest tire at a 235. If the numbers stay the way they are the SFR STX class should be very interesting. We had 8 WRX's entered in STX yesterday, mostly sedans, but with a couple of wagons in the mix.
| BIGSKYWRX | 01-27-2003 02:41 PM |
Thanks- I'm seriously thinking about 235 width (40/17) myself. Ofcourse I've got to sell my Volk 16X7's- anybody know any STS drivers who are need of some light rims:) .
Big Sky
Big Sky
| Dussander | 01-27-2003 03:11 PM |
[QUOTE]You guys suck! I can't run any events until March dammit![/QUOTE]
My season starts this weekend and I have an event every weekend until, and including, March 8th! :devil: I need the practice though. :D
My season starts this weekend and I have an event every weekend until, and including, March 8th! :devil: I need the practice though. :D
| trhoppe | 01-27-2003 03:23 PM |
[QUOTE]My season starts this weekend and I have an event every weekend until, and including, March 8th! I need the practice though. [/QUOTE] Hehe, me too! I can't start until the end of march, but from march 18th on, I only have 1 weekend off until the Pro in Petersburg on MAY 25th :D
-Tom
-Tom
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