| WagonMonster | 07-15-2002 12:13 AM |
Subaru is never going to win the Manufacturers Title again until...
They start entering 3 real contenders in every rally.
Ford runs McRae, Sainz and Martin.
Peugeot runs Burns, Gronholm and either Panizzi or Rovanpera and sometimes both, and Panizzi's run at Kenya was awesome! too bad for Peugeot, he wasn't running for manufaturer's points.
But Subaru only Runs Makinen and Solberg (Arai is in Group N) so if they both go out, Subaru gets no points.
In Kenya, both Burns and Gronholm went out but Peugeot had Rovanpera bring in 6 manufaturer's points. And, even though Sainz went out, McRae and Martin scored points for Ford.
Subaru needs to run 3 cars for points in every run, or they're never going to loosen the Peugeot/Ford chokehold on the manufacturer's title.
Sorry, just venting :p
Ford runs McRae, Sainz and Martin.
Peugeot runs Burns, Gronholm and either Panizzi or Rovanpera and sometimes both, and Panizzi's run at Kenya was awesome! too bad for Peugeot, he wasn't running for manufaturer's points.
But Subaru only Runs Makinen and Solberg (Arai is in Group N) so if they both go out, Subaru gets no points.
In Kenya, both Burns and Gronholm went out but Peugeot had Rovanpera bring in 6 manufaturer's points. And, even though Sainz went out, McRae and Martin scored points for Ford.
Subaru needs to run 3 cars for points in every run, or they're never going to loosen the Peugeot/Ford chokehold on the manufacturer's title.
Sorry, just venting :p
| PAWRX | 07-15-2002 12:35 AM |
I agree. What's the deal with Subaru? Supposedly the new body style was supposed to be improved, yet they keep having problems. Actually I should specify that Makkinen ( spelling?) keeps having problems. Why is it that Subaru picked him up when his career starts going down hill? I admit that Solberg is doing pretty well considering his limited experience. I'll give him a few more years. Then watch out. But, they definately need another strong contender.:( This is only my opinion.
| kgb | 07-15-2002 01:17 AM |
It's pretty sad to be a Subaru fan in WRC this season - Makkinen has DNF for 5 or 6 races now, and Solberg isn't quite up there with the big guys. I would say the same...
| Pikeadon | 07-15-2002 02:07 AM |
Solberg has had more car troubles than anyone this year, and he still spins it more than just about anyone, but he has won quite a few stages as well. If he could just become a little more consistent and the car more reliable he would definetly be a force to contend with.
Tommi has just plain sucked this year. IIRC two or three of his retirements were mechanical but the other three or four were him driving like crap.
I'm still hoping there saving their money this year by only running two cars so that they can afford to get Colin back. If Colin comes back Subaru will win the championship next year.
Tommi has just plain sucked this year. IIRC two or three of his retirements were mechanical but the other three or four were him driving like crap.
I'm still hoping there saving their money this year by only running two cars so that they can afford to get Colin back. If Colin comes back Subaru will win the championship next year.
| aod | 07-15-2002 02:55 AM |
It is [b]not[/b] the car. Burns ran the same car to victory last season. The problem is entirely with Makinen. What makes matters worse is that he keeps blaming the problems on the car. The only time he didn't blame the car was when he rolled it in Argentina, and that was only because there was no way he could have blamed that one on the car. If he keeps blaming stuff on the car, he's never going to quit tearing it up. There was a couple of mechanical failures, and you could tell when it was a real mechanical failure because he was much more antimate about it - like "See! It really is the cars fault!", rather than the majority of the time when he's kinda speaking out the side of his face about it.
I also totally agree on needing to get Colin next year. I doubt it will happen though. Ford has deep pockets. Also, Citroen is interested in getting Colin next season. We'll see what happens, should be interesting.
I also totally agree on needing to get Colin next year. I doubt it will happen though. Ford has deep pockets. Also, Citroen is interested in getting Colin next season. We'll see what happens, should be interesting.
| Fitz | 07-15-2002 06:58 AM |
I nominate Subiegal for the third driver... :)
Fitz
Fitz
| Rodan | 07-15-2002 02:00 PM |
Well in Solberg's defence the Subaru WRC has had reliability problems this year.
| WagonMonster | 07-15-2002 02:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fitz [/i]
[B]I nominate Subiegal for the third driver... :)
Fitz [/B][/QUOTE]
I think there's something on your nose
[B]I nominate Subiegal for the third driver... :)
Fitz [/B][/QUOTE]
I think there's something on your nose
| K-WRX | 07-15-2002 02:57 PM |
Re: Bad year for Subaru WRC
The way Markko Martin is driving this year, compared to Makinen, Subaru would have been better off giving him a full ride this year and let some other team pay the big bucks for Tommi.
Oh well, 20/20 hindsight . . .
Oh well, 20/20 hindsight . . .
| MulletSlayer | 07-15-2002 04:37 PM |
I don't think Tommi and Petter deserve all the blame for this horrible season. I think a lot of it should go to Prodrive. A good example is the steering wheel coming loose in Petters hand. Whats next not putting enough gas in the car. Plus if the cars aren't set up perfect the driver is not going to have the best chance to get a good result.
For another example look at the SCCA pro rally series. Subaru/Prodrive throws all that money at that series but Higgins with AVsport still is dominating. I realize that Higgins is probably a much better driver than Lovell but I remember watching one of the Rallys on Speed, and someone from Prodrive was saying how they were using some information gained through the WRC cars to set up the SCCA cars. Maybe I am wrong, but I think with Prodrive behind them they should have the money and resources to dominate the series. Even if they don't have the best driver.
So I point my finger at Prodrive.
For another example look at the SCCA pro rally series. Subaru/Prodrive throws all that money at that series but Higgins with AVsport still is dominating. I realize that Higgins is probably a much better driver than Lovell but I remember watching one of the Rallys on Speed, and someone from Prodrive was saying how they were using some information gained through the WRC cars to set up the SCCA cars. Maybe I am wrong, but I think with Prodrive behind them they should have the money and resources to dominate the series. Even if they don't have the best driver.
So I point my finger at Prodrive.
| brainrally | 07-15-2002 04:40 PM |
Mitsubishi is continuing its downward slide. Now Skoda is ahead of them, and Hyundai is only a point behind. But at least Mitsu scored a point for a change.
| JenisonWRX | 07-15-2002 05:21 PM |
I think they have had more then their share of bad luck this year...I'm not worried. However, they do need a stronger 3rd driver....BIG TIME. Even if Peter and Tommi finished every race.
| Coati | 07-15-2002 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MulletSlayer [/i]
[B]I don't think Tommi and Petter deserve all the blame for this horrible season. I think a lot of it should go to Prodrive. A good example is the steering wheel coming loose in Petters hand. Whats next not putting enough gas in the car. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's already happened to Petter this year, too.:(
[B]I don't think Tommi and Petter deserve all the blame for this horrible season. I think a lot of it should go to Prodrive. A good example is the steering wheel coming loose in Petters hand. Whats next not putting enough gas in the car. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's already happened to Petter this year, too.:(
| MulletSlayer | 07-15-2002 05:58 PM |
I forgot about that. :mad:
| Jewbaru | 07-15-2002 06:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MulletSlayer [/i]
[B]I don't think Tommi and Petter deserve all the blame for this horrible season. I think a lot of it should go to Prodrive. A good example is the steering wheel coming loose in Petters hand. Whats next not putting enough gas in the car. Plus if the cars aren't set up perfect the driver is not going to have the best chance to get a good result.
For another example look at the SCCA pro rally series. Subaru/Prodrive throws all that money at that series but Higgins with AVsport still is dominating. I realize that Higgins is probably a much better driver than Lovell but I remember watching one of the Rallys on Speed, and someone from Prodrive was saying how they were using some information gained through the WRC cars to set up the SCCA cars. Maybe I am wrong, but I think with Prodrive behind them they should have the money and resources to dominate the series. Even if they don't have the best driver.
So I point my finger at Prodrive. [/B][/QUOTE]
Last year, Subaru entered one of the WRC spec cars in the SCCA rally, and it cleaned house, even with the smaller spec restrictor on it. The current car isn't nearly as tuned as the WRC car is, so it's more fair to the other privateer's who can't afford to feild a 500K Rally car.
Freak things happen, people make mistakes, no body's perfect. These people get paid to not screw up, but it will happen. Maybe the vibration wiggled the bolts loose, maybe they broke, maybe they were stripped, maybe they weren't torqued enough, whatever, but you CANNOT blame strictly Prodrive.
Subaru has had problems, Tommi broke the car at Acropolis (he hit a rock which broke the steering, then looked away and ditched the car), Petter has spun the car, and the car has had reliability issues. All of it adds up, if you want to point the blame, blame the entire team.
[B]I don't think Tommi and Petter deserve all the blame for this horrible season. I think a lot of it should go to Prodrive. A good example is the steering wheel coming loose in Petters hand. Whats next not putting enough gas in the car. Plus if the cars aren't set up perfect the driver is not going to have the best chance to get a good result.
For another example look at the SCCA pro rally series. Subaru/Prodrive throws all that money at that series but Higgins with AVsport still is dominating. I realize that Higgins is probably a much better driver than Lovell but I remember watching one of the Rallys on Speed, and someone from Prodrive was saying how they were using some information gained through the WRC cars to set up the SCCA cars. Maybe I am wrong, but I think with Prodrive behind them they should have the money and resources to dominate the series. Even if they don't have the best driver.
So I point my finger at Prodrive. [/B][/QUOTE]
Last year, Subaru entered one of the WRC spec cars in the SCCA rally, and it cleaned house, even with the smaller spec restrictor on it. The current car isn't nearly as tuned as the WRC car is, so it's more fair to the other privateer's who can't afford to feild a 500K Rally car.
Freak things happen, people make mistakes, no body's perfect. These people get paid to not screw up, but it will happen. Maybe the vibration wiggled the bolts loose, maybe they broke, maybe they were stripped, maybe they weren't torqued enough, whatever, but you CANNOT blame strictly Prodrive.
Subaru has had problems, Tommi broke the car at Acropolis (he hit a rock which broke the steering, then looked away and ditched the car), Petter has spun the car, and the car has had reliability issues. All of it adds up, if you want to point the blame, blame the entire team.
| dynoguy | 07-15-2002 08:39 PM |
one thing i have noticed this year is how many times theres been some bug in their trick computer controled transmissions. i have not noted as many with say peugeot.just my 2 cents.
| Jewbaru | 07-16-2002 11:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dynoguy [/i]
[B]one thing i have noticed this year is how many times theres been some bug in their trick computer controled transmissions. i have not noted as many with say peugeot.just my 2 cents. [/B][/QUOTE]
I read somewhere that most of the other cars use a true sequential transmission (if you spin in 4th, you have to go all the way down thru the gears to get to reverse), the Subaru uses a electrohydrolic manual. It's a manual in the most real sence, and has a switch that the drivers turn to go from drive, to neutral and reverse.
I'll try to dig up where I saw/heard/read that at.
[B]one thing i have noticed this year is how many times theres been some bug in their trick computer controled transmissions. i have not noted as many with say peugeot.just my 2 cents. [/B][/QUOTE]
I read somewhere that most of the other cars use a true sequential transmission (if you spin in 4th, you have to go all the way down thru the gears to get to reverse), the Subaru uses a electrohydrolic manual. It's a manual in the most real sence, and has a switch that the drivers turn to go from drive, to neutral and reverse.
I'll try to dig up where I saw/heard/read that at.
| johnfelstead | 07-16-2002 12:39 PM |
All the boxes are basically the same. The only real diference between an H pattern and sequencial box is the selector drum. The selector drum does all the shifting of the various selector forks internally that you would have done with an H pattern selector. It's just an interface that converts fore and aft movement into side ways and fore and aft to pick up the various selector forks.
The Pug and Ford box are made by the same company. All the boxes are basically the same in terms of control systems, where they dont have a mechanical link to the gearstick but use an ECU to convert gearstick movement into messages to the hydraulics/pneumatics that moves the selector drum. The subaru has an overide switch on the dash that allows it to quickly go into reverse and then first when the driver spins the car, thats just a control switch to the ECU to tell the box to do a multi downchange and reverse select.
The most complex systems are the active diff control systems, each diff has its own programming and they are all linked together using the gearbox ECU.
The Pug and Ford box are made by the same company. All the boxes are basically the same in terms of control systems, where they dont have a mechanical link to the gearstick but use an ECU to convert gearstick movement into messages to the hydraulics/pneumatics that moves the selector drum. The subaru has an overide switch on the dash that allows it to quickly go into reverse and then first when the driver spins the car, thats just a control switch to the ECU to tell the box to do a multi downchange and reverse select.
The most complex systems are the active diff control systems, each diff has its own programming and they are all linked together using the gearbox ECU.
| GenMaster | 07-16-2002 06:41 PM |
Ok Everyone keeps saying Tommi Makinen is blaming the car and some say he plain sux. To tell you the truth he doesnt suck. In fact he is TOOOO Good. So he pushes the car to the limit. Many races he is leading number one until the car gave up on him or he blows the axle. People, Just give it time for him to adjust and get use to the car, then we will be great to watch. until now, yes another contender will certainly help.
P.S why kant they keep burns and have tommi, haha
P.S why kant they keep burns and have tommi, haha
| Redleader | 07-16-2002 09:29 PM |
[QUOTE]Ok Everyone keeps saying Tommi Makinen is blaming the car and some say he plain sux. To tell you the truth he doesnt suck. In fact he is TOOOO Good. So he pushes the car to the limit. Many races he is leading number one until the car gave up on him or he blows the axle. People, Just give it time for him to adjust and get use to the car, then we will be great to watch. until now, yes another contender will certainly help.[/QUOTE]
I agree! Look what Tommi did w/Mitsu. Lets just give him a little more time.
Anybody know how much those guys get paid on average?:confused:
Redleader:devil:
I agree! Look what Tommi did w/Mitsu. Lets just give him a little more time.
Anybody know how much those guys get paid on average?:confused:
Redleader:devil:
| TimStevens | 07-17-2002 07:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Redleader [/i]
[B]
Anybody know how much those guys get paid on average?:confused:
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'd guess too much in the case of Tommi, and not enough in the cases of Petter and Marko. :mad:
-tim
[B]
Anybody know how much those guys get paid on average?:confused:
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'd guess too much in the case of Tommi, and not enough in the cases of Petter and Marko. :mad:
-tim
| K-WRX | 07-17-2002 11:07 AM |
Re: WRC pay scale
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Redleader [/i]
[B] Anybody know how much those guys get paid on average [/B][/QUOTE]
I seem to recall reading that the top drivers (e.g. Burns, Makinen, Sainz, C. McRae) have contracts for around $10mil/year - of course, that doesn't include endorsement deals.
[B] Anybody know how much those guys get paid on average [/B][/QUOTE]
I seem to recall reading that the top drivers (e.g. Burns, Makinen, Sainz, C. McRae) have contracts for around $10mil/year - of course, that doesn't include endorsement deals.
| imprezaf | 07-17-2002 02:15 PM |
You just need to have faith people... Tommi will begin showing his true form very soon. He's going to his home rally in a few weeks. I predict a very good showing for "The Flying Fin" there.
Just look at any driver their first year with a new car or new manufacturer. It always starts out slow, then progresses from there.
Don't be too surprised to see Petter get his first victory this year.
-Mike
Just look at any driver their first year with a new car or new manufacturer. It always starts out slow, then progresses from there.
Don't be too surprised to see Petter get his first victory this year.
-Mike
| Thug | 07-17-2002 02:20 PM |
Exactly, and if Tommi had won just one more event he'd be right back in the chase. How can you say he's washed up when the guy still sets plenty of fastest stage times?
| Pikeadon | 07-17-2002 02:31 PM |
I don't think tommi is washed up but he just doesn't seem as determined or focused as he used to be. Mid way through last season and up until now he has definetely taken a downhill stumble, his confidence probably has taken a tumble as well. This last race the car crapped out on tommi but that was partially his fault. He tried ripping through a rut and tore apart the suspension, thats partiallly his fault and partially the cars.
With a little luck Tommi can get back into the hunt for drivers points but there is no way he will catch Marcus unless the pug has lots of problems in the last few rallies cuz Marcus ownz them
With a little luck Tommi can get back into the hunt for drivers points but there is no way he will catch Marcus unless the pug has lots of problems in the last few rallies cuz Marcus ownz them
| AndyRoo | 07-17-2002 02:54 PM |
The SWRT director dude said Tommi was just "bloody unlucky" this season. He has been told to push hard at times, and unfortunatley those risks have not paid off for the team.
I like the "do or die" approach.
Anywho, what the heck are the rules on nominating three cars for a WRC event?
I seem to remember Toshi doin alright last year with at least one top 5 finish. He'd be better than nothin, but I would imagine SWRT has a reason for not nominating a 3rd driver.
I like the "do or die" approach.
Anywho, what the heck are the rules on nominating three cars for a WRC event?
I seem to remember Toshi doin alright last year with at least one top 5 finish. He'd be better than nothin, but I would imagine SWRT has a reason for not nominating a 3rd driver.
| TimStevens | 07-17-2002 03:03 PM |
What happened to Toshi anyway? It looked like he was in the top 12 at one point over the weekend...
-tim
-tim
| driggity | 07-17-2002 03:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pikeadon [/i]
[B]I don't think tommi is washed up but he just doesn't seem as determined or focused as he used to be. Mid way through last season and up until now he has definetely taken a downhill stumble, his confidence probably has taken a tumble as well.[/B][/QUOTE]
Doesn't that time period coincide with him losing his regular co-driver? I'm not sure, but that seems about right.
As for what they get paid I don't know any real numbers, but heard that Sainz was the highest paid athlete in all of Spain and I imagine that some soccer players make damn good money.
[B]I don't think tommi is washed up but he just doesn't seem as determined or focused as he used to be. Mid way through last season and up until now he has definetely taken a downhill stumble, his confidence probably has taken a tumble as well.[/B][/QUOTE]
Doesn't that time period coincide with him losing his regular co-driver? I'm not sure, but that seems about right.
As for what they get paid I don't know any real numbers, but heard that Sainz was the highest paid athlete in all of Spain and I imagine that some soccer players make damn good money.
| Thug | 07-17-2002 03:45 PM |
Arai is a bit over rated, IMHO. Ive read that Subaru only gives him the WRC ride because he's about the only good driver from Japan(their home market).
| imprezaf | 07-18-2002 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]
Doesn't that time period coincide with him losing his regular co-driver? I'm not sure, but that seems about right.
[/B][/QUOTE]
When is Manisomakki (sp?) coming back anyways?
-Mike
[B]
Doesn't that time period coincide with him losing his regular co-driver? I'm not sure, but that seems about right.
[/B][/QUOTE]
When is Manisomakki (sp?) coming back anyways?
-Mike
| SubaruImpreza_power | 07-19-2002 08:31 AM |
Yeah has the subaru Finnished "1" Race yet?!? seems like their is always some problem..
| 6 Stars | 07-19-2002 09:02 AM |
Most of the third cars run by WRC teams are partially supported by private sponsorship dollars, even though the car is run by the factory team. Martin, Rovanpera, Panizzi, etc. all have personal sponsorship to help them get their rides.
My theory is that there aren't qualified drivers with the appropriate sponsorship for a significant year-long program available right now to slide into a third Subaru. Rumor had it a few months ago that Jesus Puras (a winner last year and a talented tarmac specialist) was trying to raise the funds, but couldn't close the deal.
Arai has the sponsorship (Sammy, a Japanese video game maker), but GPN presents a better chance for him to win a title and be competitive. He was close to the pace on Safari until mechanical troubles.
My theory is that there aren't qualified drivers with the appropriate sponsorship for a significant year-long program available right now to slide into a third Subaru. Rumor had it a few months ago that Jesus Puras (a winner last year and a talented tarmac specialist) was trying to raise the funds, but couldn't close the deal.
Arai has the sponsorship (Sammy, a Japanese video game maker), but GPN presents a better chance for him to win a title and be competitive. He was close to the pace on Safari until mechanical troubles.
| dynoguy | 07-19-2002 07:37 PM |
i think tommi is probbly helping petter come of age as his fast stage times indicate .and lets not forget burnies was in about the same state as tommi is in now at this time last year and look were he finished.
| WagonMonster | 07-19-2002 11:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SubaruImpreza_power [/i]
[B]Yeah has the subaru Finnished "1" Race yet?!? seems like their is always some problem.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Makinen won Monte Carlo this year ;)
[B]Yeah has the subaru Finnished "1" Race yet?!? seems like their is always some problem.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Makinen won Monte Carlo this year ;)
| Tangmere | 07-20-2002 05:56 PM |
[QUOTE]I think there's something on your nose[/QUOTE]
WagonMonster, you crack me up! Thats too funny and very appropriate!
Mark
WagonMonster, you crack me up! Thats too funny and very appropriate!
Mark
| kgb | 07-21-2002 02:57 AM |
Well, if adjusting to a new car is that difficult for Tommi, I can only come up with this:
1) the 206 is closer to the Sube than the EVO to the Sube (Burns doesn't have that much trouble adjusting)
2) He has pasted his prime (I hope not)
I just wish Subaru/Prodrive would have a decent showing for the remainder of the season, because watching only 1 Sube racing after the first day is not that much fun.
1) the 206 is closer to the Sube than the EVO to the Sube (Burns doesn't have that much trouble adjusting)
2) He has pasted his prime (I hope not)
I just wish Subaru/Prodrive would have a decent showing for the remainder of the season, because watching only 1 Sube racing after the first day is not that much fun.
| Idjiit | 07-22-2002 10:59 AM |
I believe than "Enthusiastic Finn" would be an oxymoron.
You'll see how wrong you guys are in 2003. Tommi's the best. :p
You'll see how wrong you guys are in 2003. Tommi's the best. :p
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