| suby_dude | 08-25-2004 03:22 PM |
VIDEO(s): Sears Point 8/22, HPDE Casualties
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8/22 - Infenioni Raceway (aka Sears point)
casualties that I know of...
RS Turbo - going into caroselle
R32 VW - turn 8
2 M3 (boyfriend/girlfriend drivers) (don't know)
350z - turn 8
Videos:
RS Turbo - Toast: [url]http://www.subydude.com/video/video_dump/rsturbo.wmv[/url]
Professional Tailgater: [url]http://www.subydude.com/video/video_dump/professional_tailgater.wmv[/url]
VIDEOS INCLUDE ADULT LANGUAGE (unfotunately... no nudity... but there are pretty nice cars in there)
Enjoy!
SD
casualties that I know of...
RS Turbo - going into caroselle
R32 VW - turn 8
2 M3 (boyfriend/girlfriend drivers) (don't know)
350z - turn 8
Videos:
RS Turbo - Toast: [url]http://www.subydude.com/video/video_dump/rsturbo.wmv[/url]
Professional Tailgater: [url]http://www.subydude.com/video/video_dump/professional_tailgater.wmv[/url]
VIDEOS INCLUDE ADULT LANGUAGE (unfotunately... no nudity... but there are pretty nice cars in there)
Enjoy!
SD
| CoiloverKid | 08-25-2004 03:55 PM |
that corner is fun to drift! a little throttle and he probably wouldve been ok...
| Butt Dyno | 08-25-2004 04:49 PM |
Your HPDE's terrify me :banana:
| ImprezaRSfan! | 08-25-2004 04:50 PM |
nice videos
that looks so fun, i want to start doing that in my car. But if i ever wrecked, i would cry.
whats HPDE
that looks so fun, i want to start doing that in my car. But if i ever wrecked, i would cry.
whats HPDE
| Equilibrium Tuning | 08-25-2004 04:52 PM |
I'm pretty sure the 2 BMW's ate it comming out of turn 4. We saw it, but they both looked like guys... u sure they were bf/gf?
-- Ed
-- Ed
| Butt Dyno | 08-25-2004 05:05 PM |
[QUOTE=ImprezaRSfan!]nice videos
that looks so fun, i want to start doing that in my car. But if i ever wrecked, i would cry.
whats HPDE[/QUOTE]High Performance Driver's Education, I believe.. and yes.. its all about the dedicated track car
john
that looks so fun, i want to start doing that in my car. But if i ever wrecked, i would cry.
whats HPDE[/QUOTE]High Performance Driver's Education, I believe.. and yes.. its all about the dedicated track car
john
| DrBiggly | 08-25-2004 05:19 PM |
That was some serious tailgating. Unbelievable. Why the guy in front no wave around?
| RS TURBO 211 | 08-25-2004 05:28 PM |
here's the link to the thread about my track day and rebuilding process....enjoy!!
just change the nasioc to the other forums name and it'll forward you over there!!
[url]http://www.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70230[/url]
just change the nasioc to the other forums name and it'll forward you over there!!
[url]http://www.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70230[/url]
| ratt_finkel | 08-25-2004 06:06 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]High Performance Driver's Education, I believe.. and yes.. its all about the dedicated track car
john[/QUOTE]
I thought it was, "High Performance Driving Event".
john[/QUOTE]
I thought it was, "High Performance Driving Event".
| RS TURBO 211 | 08-25-2004 06:41 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]That was some serious tailgating. Unbelievable. Why the guy in front no wave around?[/QUOTE]
He must not of seen me ;)
He must not of seen me ;)
| Get LIC'd...? | 08-25-2004 06:42 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]I thought it was, "High Performance Driving Event".[/QUOTE]
It is...
-Noah
It is...
-Noah
| GarySheehan | 08-25-2004 07:24 PM |
HPDE<>W2W Racing
That was way too close for HPDE.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
That was way too close for HPDE.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Jeff_DML | 08-25-2004 07:24 PM |
who ran the event so I know which organization to avoid? :p
Went to a NASA event there one time and I was afraid for my life, stark difference from BMWCCA events.
thx
Edit: just watched the vid, is NASA event :D
Went to a NASA event there one time and I was afraid for my life, stark difference from BMWCCA events.
thx
Edit: just watched the vid, is NASA event :D
| HoRo1 | 08-25-2004 07:55 PM |
So, did the engine break and cause the spin or did the spin and impact etc cause the engine to break?
Makes note to avoid NASA HPDE at Infineon. Its a nice track, but the run off room is limited at many places.
Makes note to avoid NASA HPDE at Infineon. Its a nice track, but the run off room is limited at many places.
| Butt Dyno | 08-25-2004 11:39 PM |
[QUOTE=Get LIC'd...?]It is...
-Noah[/QUOTE]Eh.. I have seen both
Either way, I didn't think it was supposed to be competitive.
john
-Noah[/QUOTE]Eh.. I have seen both
Either way, I didn't think it was supposed to be competitive.
john
| ColinL | 08-26-2004 12:36 AM |
[QUOTE=HoRo1]So, did the engine break and cause the spin or did the spin and impact etc cause the engine to break?
Makes note to avoid NASA HPDE at Infineon. Its a nice track, but the run off room is limited at many places.[/QUOTE]
looks to me like he entered the corner at a speed beyond his ability and failed to get back on the gas... terminal understeer slide through the inside. the collision smooshed the chassis into the passenger side of the cam cover, causing fatal valvetrain damage.
Makes note to avoid NASA HPDE at Infineon. Its a nice track, but the run off room is limited at many places.[/QUOTE]
looks to me like he entered the corner at a speed beyond his ability and failed to get back on the gas... terminal understeer slide through the inside. the collision smooshed the chassis into the passenger side of the cam cover, causing fatal valvetrain damage.
| RS TURBO 211 | 08-26-2004 01:55 AM |
[QUOTE=ColinL]looks to me like he entered the corner at a speed beyond his ability and failed to get back on the gas... terminal understeer slide through the inside. the collision smooshed the chassis into the passenger side of the cam cover, causing fatal valvetrain damage.[/QUOTE]
something like that!! :disco:
something like that!! :disco:
| TimStevens | 08-26-2004 09:11 AM |
It's bull**** like this that keeps me away from HPDE's. If I'm trying to learn my way around the track I don't need some jackass trying to find a way through me.
Were there no instructors there to flag BS tailgating?
Were there no instructors there to flag BS tailgating?
| ChrisL2 | 08-26-2004 11:53 AM |
TimStevens, have you gone and watched one yet? Then you can determine if you want to run with that group. Anyways, they usually keep the newbies and the experiences ones on the track at seperate times.
| TimStevens | 08-26-2004 11:56 AM |
Yes, I swung by one last summer at Lime Rock and watched for a little while. Things seemed much more conservative there, but it only takes one yahoo to cause a problem, and who knows who's going to be showing up every time.
| 8Complex | 08-26-2004 12:42 PM |
[QUOTE=ColinL]looks to me like he entered the corner at a speed beyond his ability and failed to get back on the gas... terminal understeer slide through the inside. the collision smooshed the chassis into the passenger side of the cam cover, causing fatal valvetrain damage.[/QUOTE]
Very likely on the motor death, but IMO, I think he should've nailed the brakes and locked up the tires (you guys don't use ABS at the track, do you?). Hitting the gas very early might've helped, but at such an overspeed would've rubberbanded him around and into the wall on the other side.
AWD sucks for high performance driving unless you have 100% commitment at all times. There is no amount of clutch popping or throttling that can save you if you're late... just an ebrake, unless your diffs are already heated up and won't allow it to work.
Edit: wish I could see those pics on the i-Club, though someone mysteriously blocked my account off of there. :lol:
Very likely on the motor death, but IMO, I think he should've nailed the brakes and locked up the tires (you guys don't use ABS at the track, do you?). Hitting the gas very early might've helped, but at such an overspeed would've rubberbanded him around and into the wall on the other side.
AWD sucks for high performance driving unless you have 100% commitment at all times. There is no amount of clutch popping or throttling that can save you if you're late... just an ebrake, unless your diffs are already heated up and won't allow it to work.
Edit: wish I could see those pics on the i-Club, though someone mysteriously blocked my account off of there. :lol:
| Achilles38WRX | 08-26-2004 01:43 PM |
looked to me like it could've been braking and turning at the same time, being a little to twitchy with the steering wheel on entry. plus it looks downhill, makes the rear end even lighter. then just failure to get the steering wheel back to the right in enough time to correct the error.
probably would've happened in any car, fwd, rwd, awd.
either way, everyone makes mistakes, at least you dont seem to down about it and are rebuilding the car. :)
probably would've happened in any car, fwd, rwd, awd.
either way, everyone makes mistakes, at least you dont seem to down about it and are rebuilding the car. :)
| wrexr | 08-26-2004 01:46 PM |
[QUOTE=Get LIC'd...?]It is...
-Noah[/QUOTE]
That was close, but it stands for "High Performance Driving Experience"
For everyone out there fearing NASA HPDE events, the videos were of two of my friends that have shared a lot of track time together. The drive like a unit, almost connected, cuz they know each other so well. This is group 3, not a beginner group, and I have a feeling they will be moving up to group 4 soon. After doing NASA events for two years now, I feel they are much safer than private track clubs. Every corner station has a flagger unlike many of the clubs out there. The two RS conversions cars pictured always run together and are recognized by the corner workers. Unless you have driven with them, your perspective here has blinders on. As far as Instructors go, they are usually concentrated in the beginner groups. A few run in group 3 and 4. Most of them compliment the black and blue terrors on their driving skills.
-Kevin
-Noah[/QUOTE]
That was close, but it stands for "High Performance Driving Experience"
For everyone out there fearing NASA HPDE events, the videos were of two of my friends that have shared a lot of track time together. The drive like a unit, almost connected, cuz they know each other so well. This is group 3, not a beginner group, and I have a feeling they will be moving up to group 4 soon. After doing NASA events for two years now, I feel they are much safer than private track clubs. Every corner station has a flagger unlike many of the clubs out there. The two RS conversions cars pictured always run together and are recognized by the corner workers. Unless you have driven with them, your perspective here has blinders on. As far as Instructors go, they are usually concentrated in the beginner groups. A few run in group 3 and 4. Most of them compliment the black and blue terrors on their driving skills.
-Kevin
| Fred | 08-26-2004 02:40 PM |
Do you guys use hand signals to indicate who can pass & when? I haven't been able to see any in the videos that have been posted so far. I've done a couple of HPDE's at VIR with THSCC/TZC, and the kind of stuff that I've seen in these videos would get you black flagged there.
I've ridden with instructors, and they seem do some crazy **** at times, but it's always done with confirmation from the driver in front that he/she knows what's going to happen.
No matter how good you are, if some yahoo decides to out-brake the 4 cars that are "holding him up" without getting passing signals from any of them, there's a chance you're not going to see him & something very bad is going to happen.
Rules = good...
I've ridden with instructors, and they seem do some crazy **** at times, but it's always done with confirmation from the driver in front that he/she knows what's going to happen.
No matter how good you are, if some yahoo decides to out-brake the 4 cars that are "holding him up" without getting passing signals from any of them, there's a chance you're not going to see him & something very bad is going to happen.
Rules = good...
| Equilibrium Tuning | 08-26-2004 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE=8Complex]Very likely on the motor death, but IMO, I think he should've nailed the brakes and locked up the tires (you guys don't use ABS at the track, do you?). Hitting the gas very early might've helped, but at such an overspeed would've rubberbanded him around and into the wall on the other side.
AWD sucks for high performance driving unless you have 100% commitment at all times. There is no amount of clutch popping or throttling that can save you if you're late... just an ebrake, unless your diffs are already heated up and won't allow it to work.
Edit: wish I could see those pics on the i-Club, though someone mysteriously blocked my account off of there. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Nailing the brakes would have sent him spining and backwards off the right side of the track. As soon as that rear end started to come around, he should have been countersteering much quicker and nailing the gas... that's the only thing that'll get you out of a situation like that and once you learn to do it, it can really save your ass when you go into a turn too fast. I think everyone needs some time on gravel to really learn to control a slide... you need to be much quicker on the steering wheel than most think!
-- Ed
AWD sucks for high performance driving unless you have 100% commitment at all times. There is no amount of clutch popping or throttling that can save you if you're late... just an ebrake, unless your diffs are already heated up and won't allow it to work.
Edit: wish I could see those pics on the i-Club, though someone mysteriously blocked my account off of there. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Nailing the brakes would have sent him spining and backwards off the right side of the track. As soon as that rear end started to come around, he should have been countersteering much quicker and nailing the gas... that's the only thing that'll get you out of a situation like that and once you learn to do it, it can really save your ass when you go into a turn too fast. I think everyone needs some time on gravel to really learn to control a slide... you need to be much quicker on the steering wheel than most think!
-- Ed
| dwx | 08-26-2004 03:46 PM |
[QUOTE=wrexr]That was close, but it stands for "High Performance Driving Experience"
For everyone out there fearing NASA HPDE events, the videos were of two of my friends that have shared a lot of track time together. The drive like a unit, almost connected, cuz they know each other so well. This is group 3, not a beginner group, and I have a feeling they will be moving up to group 4 soon. After doing NASA events for two years now, I feel they are much safer than private track clubs. Every corner station has a flagger unlike many of the clubs out there. The two RS conversions cars pictured always run together and are recognized by the corner workers. Unless you have driven with them, your perspective here has blinders on. As far as Instructors go, they are usually concentrated in the beginner groups. A few run in group 3 and 4. Most of them compliment the black and blue terrors on their driving skills.
-Kevin[/QUOTE]
We had a couple guys like that at one of the track days I did this year. They have two track-prepped Hondas and both race in SCCA. They both immediately got black flagged for similiar behaviour and when they gave the excuse they have been doing it for years, the track official made them sit out the next session as well.
For everyone out there fearing NASA HPDE events, the videos were of two of my friends that have shared a lot of track time together. The drive like a unit, almost connected, cuz they know each other so well. This is group 3, not a beginner group, and I have a feeling they will be moving up to group 4 soon. After doing NASA events for two years now, I feel they are much safer than private track clubs. Every corner station has a flagger unlike many of the clubs out there. The two RS conversions cars pictured always run together and are recognized by the corner workers. Unless you have driven with them, your perspective here has blinders on. As far as Instructors go, they are usually concentrated in the beginner groups. A few run in group 3 and 4. Most of them compliment the black and blue terrors on their driving skills.
-Kevin[/QUOTE]
We had a couple guys like that at one of the track days I did this year. They have two track-prepped Hondas and both race in SCCA. They both immediately got black flagged for similiar behaviour and when they gave the excuse they have been doing it for years, the track official made them sit out the next session as well.
| 8Complex | 08-26-2004 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE=Vaus]Nailing the brakes would have sent him spining and backwards off the right side of the track. As soon as that rear end started to come around, he should have been countersteering much quicker and nailing the gas... that's the only thing that'll get you out of a situation like that and once you learn to do it, it can really save your ass when you go into a turn too fast. I think everyone needs some time on gravel to really learn to control a slide... you need to be much quicker on the steering wheel than most think!
-- Ed[/QUOTE]
Well, locking up the brakes would've sent him off on a tangent to the curved path he was sliding versus continuing the half-grip slide that he had going on. He would've went off the outside of the track instead of the inside, which in that case was much safer to the vehicle/driver.
Most cases like this, people don't know they're about to go around until they're already going around. This is when reactive actions take place versus the proactive ones like hitting the gas or steering earlier. When you just can't stop something from happening, you might as well do what you need to in order to prevent as much damage as possible.
-- Ed[/QUOTE]
Well, locking up the brakes would've sent him off on a tangent to the curved path he was sliding versus continuing the half-grip slide that he had going on. He would've went off the outside of the track instead of the inside, which in that case was much safer to the vehicle/driver.
Most cases like this, people don't know they're about to go around until they're already going around. This is when reactive actions take place versus the proactive ones like hitting the gas or steering earlier. When you just can't stop something from happening, you might as well do what you need to in order to prevent as much damage as possible.
| Equilibrium Tuning | 08-26-2004 05:51 PM |
I agree... going off the outside would have caused less damage. But from what I saw in the video, the slide was very correctable if he had felt it a bit sooner and was quicker on the wheel and gas. He knew what to do to correct it, he just didn't do it quickly enough.
-- Ed
-- Ed
| RS TURBO 211 | 08-27-2004 03:51 AM |
i did what came natural.....obviously it didn't work out too well....i do disagree on the fact that exiting the track to the right would've have been less damaging.....being as turn 6 is just after the crest of a hill and then proceeds to flatten out as the downhill turn increases.....most mistakes leave most drivers in the tire wall just right of where i ate it....as i crested the rise on the approach to 6 i realized i was carrying way too much speed.....at that point i was focusing on staying inside to give myself some extra run-off.....yeah that didn't work.....but i guarantee you that the second anyone goes wide & touches the dirt on the right,....you'll be immediately picking up speed as you go sliding into the unforgiving tire wall...trust me that wall is there for a reason...it gets used frequently....i was just lucky that i scrubbed off as much speed as i did before i reached point of impact!!!
| Treefallen | 08-27-2004 10:03 AM |
Nice car. Just a parenthesis/observation here. The scenario is: You are stuck behind a slower car, get pissed, await anxiously to be rid of him...once you finally get around it/them, you just go balls to the walls along the straight/passing zone (sort of like road rage, with the 'finger signal' instead of a 'friendly wave') and overcook it at the following turn... I make it a point to take it easy until I regain the required attitude/focus.
| 8Complex | 08-27-2004 10:26 AM |
RS TURBO 211 - Makes sense. I couldn't tell much about the outside (you weren't facing it very long ;) ), but I can definitely see the choice involved there. So how bad is the rebuild going to be? Or was it already done? (I'm blocked from that 'other' site, apparently).
| RS TURBO 211 | 08-27-2004 12:50 PM |
the car should be off the frame rack today and back @ LICmotorsports this afternoon......couple hours after that i should have her up and runnning!!!
| Get LIC'd...? | 08-27-2004 01:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Fred]
No matter how good you are, if some yahoo decides to out-brake the 4 cars that are "holding him up" without getting passing signals from any of them, there's a chance you're not going to see him & something very bad is going to happen.
Rules = good...[/QUOTE]
Hand signals are used from time-to-time.....Most often the MIDDLE FINGER.
-Noah
No matter how good you are, if some yahoo decides to out-brake the 4 cars that are "holding him up" without getting passing signals from any of them, there's a chance you're not going to see him & something very bad is going to happen.
Rules = good...[/QUOTE]
Hand signals are used from time-to-time.....Most often the MIDDLE FINGER.
-Noah
| ratt_finkel | 08-27-2004 01:31 PM |
Wow, sucks to be him. But after seeing the 2nd video, I don't really feel bad.
| suby_dude | 09-02-2004 12:01 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]Wow, sucks to be him. But after seeing the 2nd video, I don't really feel bad.[/QUOTE]
being a passenger... sad to say, but i'm gonna have to agree w/ you
SD
being a passenger... sad to say, but i'm gonna have to agree w/ you
SD
| turboICE | 09-02-2004 01:44 PM |
Tim Stevens - All the major groups running events from VIR, Summit, Pocono, LRP and Glenn run very well coordinated and safe events. That includes NASA (NE & VA), BMWCCA (NJ & DE), PDA - their safety directors and corner workers are all top notch. Driving on the GSP or NJT is much more dangerous than any of the area HPDEs.
| kwh29 | 09-02-2004 04:52 PM |
Just watched the video again and have to comment.
That's absolutely insane what those two guys are doing. From my understanding of HPDE rules enforcement here in the SE they would have been black flagged and probably sent home for such ridiculously dangerous behavior. It really doesn't matter that "they do it all the time" as one mistake in their (apparently) non-roll-bar non-race-seat non-harnessed cars could end up with one or both cars upside down against a tire wall with up to 4 injured people.
Now do the same at a road race and (other than the corner workers wondering why the rear car doesn't just pass!) everything would be fine, assuming no blocking... Road racing requires the appropriate safety equipment for that behavior.
--Kevin H.
That's absolutely insane what those two guys are doing. From my understanding of HPDE rules enforcement here in the SE they would have been black flagged and probably sent home for such ridiculously dangerous behavior. It really doesn't matter that "they do it all the time" as one mistake in their (apparently) non-roll-bar non-race-seat non-harnessed cars could end up with one or both cars upside down against a tire wall with up to 4 injured people.
Now do the same at a road race and (other than the corner workers wondering why the rear car doesn't just pass!) everything would be fine, assuming no blocking... Road racing requires the appropriate safety equipment for that behavior.
--Kevin H.
| fastwrx | 09-03-2004 09:53 PM |
My initial thought also was that did not look like the HPDEs I've attended. I've done events with both PCA and NASA. And, such behavior would result in expulsion from the track with either of the organizations I've been with.
Now, that I've read the post that it was group 3 and they are two "regulars" known by the track workers to routinely drive in unison like this... perhaps I can understand. But, I'd still be concerned of the risks posed to the OTHER drivers out there who are NOT part of this game. I'm pretty sure that even in group 3, it would not be tolerated in my region.
I wanted to stress to those who have contemplated HPDEs , but were afraid to after seeing videos like this.... This is NOT representative of HPDEs, especially in the novice group (group 1) or even intermediate group (group 2).
Other than that... Nice videos!!
BTW, I was SUPPOSED to be doing an HPDE tomorrow at Moroso (West Palm Beach). It was to be my first time out solo with group 2! Got my check ride last time. But, nooooooooooooooo.... Hurricane Frances quashed my track day, DAMMIT!
So... here I sit waiting for this storm to pass. It's slowing down, making the time pass all the more slowly. For now, I'll have to settle for watching track videos on NASIOC!
Mike
Now, that I've read the post that it was group 3 and they are two "regulars" known by the track workers to routinely drive in unison like this... perhaps I can understand. But, I'd still be concerned of the risks posed to the OTHER drivers out there who are NOT part of this game. I'm pretty sure that even in group 3, it would not be tolerated in my region.
I wanted to stress to those who have contemplated HPDEs , but were afraid to after seeing videos like this.... This is NOT representative of HPDEs, especially in the novice group (group 1) or even intermediate group (group 2).
Other than that... Nice videos!!
BTW, I was SUPPOSED to be doing an HPDE tomorrow at Moroso (West Palm Beach). It was to be my first time out solo with group 2! Got my check ride last time. But, nooooooooooooooo.... Hurricane Frances quashed my track day, DAMMIT!
So... here I sit waiting for this storm to pass. It's slowing down, making the time pass all the more slowly. For now, I'll have to settle for watching track videos on NASIOC!
Mike
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