| PKer | 12-13-2005 07:38 PM |
Wet Auto-x Which Tire is Faster?
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Which would be faster in the rain...[b]Shaved[/b] Hankook RS-2 7212 235/40-17, or full tread Bridgestone RE-070 225/45-17?
The Kooks would be mounted on an 8" wide wheel, the RE-070 would be on 7.5" wheels.
I know there is probably very little data either way, but it's the off season for you people with an actual winter so let the rumor and conjecture fly!
The Kooks would be mounted on an 8" wide wheel, the RE-070 would be on 7.5" wheels.
I know there is probably very little data either way, but it's the off season for you people with an actual winter so let the rumor and conjecture fly!
| makofoto | 12-13-2005 11:27 PM |
According the latest number of Tire Tests in various magazines ... hand's down ... The Goodyear GS-D3 would be THE tire to have in the rain. Expensive though ... although so is the 070.
Very similiar to the Toyo T1-S that I used to come in 2nd in a local Street Modified AX.
The Hankook sucks in the wet ... terrible wet braking! (Seb ... when I compare it to my old T1-S's ... and the GS-D3's are suppose to be better.)
Current Car & Driver (or last months) has one of the tests ...
Very similiar to the Toyo T1-S that I used to come in 2nd in a local Street Modified AX.
The Hankook sucks in the wet ... terrible wet braking! (Seb ... when I compare it to my old T1-S's ... and the GS-D3's are suppose to be better.)
Current Car & Driver (or last months) has one of the tests ...
| DrBiggly | 12-14-2005 01:35 AM |
I've heard lots of good stuff about the Kooks in the wet, but have yet to have had the opportunity to drive them in the wet so I have no direct personal experience unfortunately. :)
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 01:59 AM |
When I raced with them once in the rain ... against Seb/PKer actually ... I thought they were OK ... then I started to remember how great my T1-S and actually my S-03's were in the rain ... THOSE were good rain tires ... the Kooks aren't anywhere close.
| z3coupe | 12-14-2005 03:06 AM |
Yokohama Advan Neova AD07 - best all round tire wet and dry!
And come one now Mako, you now see that some of the others have followed my path (which was also after Josh who was the first). Even Teague now has them on his //M3 - though in the 265 size = OUCH!!!!!!! :devil:
And come one now Mako, you now see that some of the others have followed my path (which was also after Josh who was the first). Even Teague now has them on his //M3 - though in the 265 size = OUCH!!!!!!! :devil:
| azn2yunr | 12-14-2005 03:10 AM |
at the last wet event i was at the victos did better than as304's quite unsuprisingly. but when i say wet, i do me full torential down pour soaked to the bones and a bit pruney after a work shift.
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 09:36 AM |
(We aren't talking about R tires.)
Some people would say the Neova in 245/40 is a bit wide for the 8" STX rim that Seb and I need to use. The Neova isn't available in 235/40/17, perhaps the "ideal" size for our WRX's.
Rocky ... Seb was asking about a wet tire. The Neova did great in the tests ... but not the best wet tire. The softer sidewalls of the GS-D3 also help in the wet.
I know you're still setting up your STI, etc. but the two of us were awfully close last Sunday ... me in Marks' unfamiliar STU STI with 245/45 615's, soft jdm Pinks ... one of which is causing the left rear to sag an inch lower then the other corners. You had your vaunted Neova's, coilovers, etc. :p
Some people would say the Neova in 245/40 is a bit wide for the 8" STX rim that Seb and I need to use. The Neova isn't available in 235/40/17, perhaps the "ideal" size for our WRX's.
Rocky ... Seb was asking about a wet tire. The Neova did great in the tests ... but not the best wet tire. The softer sidewalls of the GS-D3 also help in the wet.
I know you're still setting up your STI, etc. but the two of us were awfully close last Sunday ... me in Marks' unfamiliar STU STI with 245/45 615's, soft jdm Pinks ... one of which is causing the left rear to sag an inch lower then the other corners. You had your vaunted Neova's, coilovers, etc. :p
| solo2wrx | 12-14-2005 10:39 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]
The Hankook sucks in the wet ... terrible wet braking! (Seb ... when I compare it to my old T1-S's ... and the GS-D3's are suppose to be better.)[/QUOTE]
Were the 'kooks you ran in the rain shaved? My friend ran full tread 'kooks at the South East Divisional in Norfolk where it was near Hurricane force rain on his STI and he said the tires were amazing in the wet.
The Hankook sucks in the wet ... terrible wet braking! (Seb ... when I compare it to my old T1-S's ... and the GS-D3's are suppose to be better.)[/QUOTE]
Were the 'kooks you ran in the rain shaved? My friend ran full tread 'kooks at the South East Divisional in Norfolk where it was near Hurricane force rain on his STI and he said the tires were amazing in the wet.
| angryfist | 12-14-2005 12:33 PM |
FYI, hankooks were fastest in the wet on day one of nationals. these were at about 3/32nds.
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 12:43 PM |
What were they running against though ... mainly Max Dry tires ?
I wouldn't use the "rain" tires unless it was REALLY wet ... otherwise our usual tires are a good bet. Check out the tire tests in Euro Tuner and Car & Driver ... can't remember if the Grassroots Motorsports test included wet conditions?
I wouldn't use the "rain" tires unless it was REALLY wet ... otherwise our usual tires are a good bet. Check out the tire tests in Euro Tuner and Car & Driver ... can't remember if the Grassroots Motorsports test included wet conditions?
| GRMPer | 12-14-2005 01:20 PM |
Our GRM test was dry only. We also cooled tires to keep them in temp range and ran the test as an autocross with more transitions. Hence the differing results for dry times.
| jcroy66 | 12-14-2005 01:25 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]Some people would say the Neova in 245/40 is a bit wide for the 8" STX rim that Seb and I need to use. The Neova isn't available in 235/40/17, perhaps the "ideal" size for our WRX's.[/QUOTE]Huh?? :huh: Uh.... We were ALL using 235/40/17s. Josh, Phil/Mike/I, Andy Basham. As far as I know, Josh was the only one to try the 245/40/17s. Based on his observation about them being too wide of 245s for the 17x8s, we all went with the 235/40/17s thereafter. (So thank you again, Josh, for saving me some money!!)
We bought them from TireRack, who can also shave them. [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Yokohama&model=ADVAN+Neova+AD07[/url]
Our first test/street/rain set were 225/45/17s for my 17x7 street wheels. Bought those from Hoosier Tom, who actually beat TireRack's price and didn't charge shipping, since they were delivered (and mounted) at an event.
We bought them from TireRack, who can also shave them. [url]http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Yokohama&model=ADVAN+Neova+AD07[/url]
Our first test/street/rain set were 225/45/17s for my 17x7 street wheels. Bought those from Hoosier Tom, who actually beat TireRack's price and didn't charge shipping, since they were delivered (and mounted) at an event.
| trhoppe | 12-14-2005 01:28 PM |
:lol:
Even Mr. Yoko will agree that the Hankook is the better wet tire ;)
-Tom
Even Mr. Yoko will agree that the Hankook is the better wet tire ;)
-Tom
| jcroy66 | 12-14-2005 01:30 PM |
FWIW, Andy Basham (who might have been the only one last year to try both the Yoks and the Kooks) felt that the Hankooks were probably the best rain tire out there (but the Yoks were close), but the Yoks were probably the best dry tire (but the Kooks were close).
| trhoppe | 12-14-2005 01:30 PM |
Also, no offense to anyone, but I wouldn't use anything then national level events with th e best drivers to compare which tire is the best. When you have local guys go "ooooh ooh this tire is the best" that means nothing as they can't drive the tire to the fullest.
Hankook > * in the wet, while the Yokos won out in the dry. I would say its a tossup, but I would take the Hankook personally.
-Tom
Hankook > * in the wet, while the Yokos won out in the dry. I would say its a tossup, but I would take the Hankook personally.
-Tom
| GRMPer | 12-14-2005 01:45 PM |
And you should also take what some people on this board say with a grain of salt, especially if they're contract drivers :p
I get paid because of ALL of the tire companies. "I love all of God's tires..."
Per :lol:
I get paid because of ALL of the tire companies. "I love all of God's tires..."
Per :lol:
| PhilC | 12-14-2005 02:38 PM |
Ooh, ooh, can I get free tires? I'll stump for darn near anyone for freebies. Until then I'll probably stick with the Yoks if they maintain the same contingency this next year because I agree with Tom on this one. Kooks in the wet by a margin and Yoks in the dry by a margin. The Yok contingency offset the increased cost of the tires and we kept a set of full treads to use on the street and in the rain anyways. All that said Yok still owes us money and my opinion could change dramatically about using them if I don't see some of it soon.
This is on a STX WRX and your mileage WILL vary if you have a different car with a different size tire. In fact if you just test back to back with no changes to the car I don't think you'll ever find the true limits of the tire. The Yoks definitely required a different setup than the other tires we've used.
This is on a STX WRX and your mileage WILL vary if you have a different car with a different size tire. In fact if you just test back to back with no changes to the car I don't think you'll ever find the true limits of the tire. The Yoks definitely required a different setup than the other tires we've used.
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 02:45 PM |
I missed the Neova being available in 235/40 ... sorry ... I guess the price blinded me. Less then I thought it would be though ... hmmmm :cool:
| PKer | 12-14-2005 03:09 PM |
The only reason I included the RE-070 in my question is that I already have a set that have only seen street driving and are already mounted.
I am only willing to buy one set of tires for my rookie appearance at the big game next year, so I was wondering if it would be any advantage at all to bring the RE-070 too.
I am only willing to buy one set of tires for my rookie appearance at the big game next year, so I was wondering if it would be any advantage at all to bring the RE-070 too.
| omahasubaru | 12-14-2005 03:15 PM |
I'm very curious how the wet traction of the new Toyo T1-R will be in comparison to the top players and the previously great T1-s.
I don't think the T1-R will keep up in the dry, but it could be a top one in the wet. They always have a nice varity of sizing options too, which is nice, a few less than with the T1-S though.
Sure wish these would have been more involved in the recent tire tests. Too bad they weren't ready for the GRM comparison.
They are one of the lightest tires on the market geared towards max summer performance. Not cheap though. In the Yoko price ranges.
I don't think the T1-R will keep up in the dry, but it could be a top one in the wet. They always have a nice varity of sizing options too, which is nice, a few less than with the T1-S though.
Sure wish these would have been more involved in the recent tire tests. Too bad they weren't ready for the GRM comparison.
They are one of the lightest tires on the market geared towards max summer performance. Not cheap though. In the Yoko price ranges.
| trhoppe | 12-14-2005 04:00 PM |
[QUOTE=PKer]The only reason I included the RE-070 in my question is that I already have a set that have only seen street driving and are already mounted.
I am only willing to buy one set of tires for my rookie appearance at the big game next year, so I was wondering if it would be any advantage at all to bring the RE-070 too.[/QUOTE]
The answer would be *no*. The RE070s IMHO suck in the wet and they suck in the cold too. Unlike other street tires that go off in heat but work well cold, the RE070 in my experience has a very narrow temp range where they don't work cold, then they work ok, then they go off.
The T1-R looks interesting with the sizes, but DAMN they are expensive.
As far as these Z212s in the wet. There is a reason that Hankook doesn't bother coming out with an R compound wet. Because the Z212 was faster then the Hoosier wet ;)
-Tom
I am only willing to buy one set of tires for my rookie appearance at the big game next year, so I was wondering if it would be any advantage at all to bring the RE-070 too.[/QUOTE]
The answer would be *no*. The RE070s IMHO suck in the wet and they suck in the cold too. Unlike other street tires that go off in heat but work well cold, the RE070 in my experience has a very narrow temp range where they don't work cold, then they work ok, then they go off.
The T1-R looks interesting with the sizes, but DAMN they are expensive.
As far as these Z212s in the wet. There is a reason that Hankook doesn't bother coming out with an R compound wet. Because the Z212 was faster then the Hoosier wet ;)
-Tom
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 08:41 PM |
You guys don't seem to put much stock in the various tire tests published in Car & Driver and EuroTuner ... we know that there are always problems ... and cars have to be tuned to the tire, etc.
But the Toyo T1R ... which I had high hopes for, having LOVED my T1'S ... did poorly in the Nov. EuroTuner magazine tire test (done at the TireRack test facilities).
Last in Dry Lap, 9th out of 14 in the Dry Slalom, 2nd last in the Dry Skidpad, 2nd last in Dry Braking.
9th in Wet Lap, 8th Wet Slalom, 11th Wet Slalom, 8th Wet Braking.
... posted the other tires in an earlier thread on this test.
But the Toyo T1R ... which I had high hopes for, having LOVED my T1'S ... did poorly in the Nov. EuroTuner magazine tire test (done at the TireRack test facilities).
Last in Dry Lap, 9th out of 14 in the Dry Slalom, 2nd last in the Dry Skidpad, 2nd last in Dry Braking.
9th in Wet Lap, 8th Wet Slalom, 11th Wet Slalom, 8th Wet Braking.
... posted the other tires in an earlier thread on this test.
| ChrisDP | 12-14-2005 09:18 PM |
I haven't driven the RE070 or Yokohama Neova to compare to those tires' wet performance... but IMO the Hankook is a phenomenal wet tire. I thought the wet braking grip was very good at full tread on track in a downpour, and the compound served me very well at 4/32" at wet autocrosses. Corner exit grip was very impressive, and the tire was easy to drive with a progressive breakaway and quick recovery.
Actually, I should say... "I think the wet grip is borderline unholy" because at aforementioned SEDIV in the rain, I was on Hankooks in STX and felt like it was cheating because the car was so easy to drive fast. LOL!
Actually, I should say... "I think the wet grip is borderline unholy" because at aforementioned SEDIV in the rain, I was on Hankooks in STX and felt like it was cheating because the car was so easy to drive fast. LOL!
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 09:45 PM |
Here is the Car & Driver Tire Test:
[url]http://tinyurl.com/7lq5e[/url]
... they said the Kook was below average in the wet ... imagine what a tire that's good in the wet would feel like?! :D
[url]http://tinyurl.com/7lq5e[/url]
... they said the Kook was below average in the wet ... imagine what a tire that's good in the wet would feel like?! :D
| Draken | 12-14-2005 09:52 PM |
I too am disappointed in the T1R performance. they offer some kick-ass sizes, but who is willing to give up 0.5 to 1.0 seconds on a typical aautocross course in grip? Only if the cool sizes can make up the difference, such as at a Pro with the 245/35-17 size etc.
In the CD test, the Nuevo was quicker than the Kook in the wet autocross.
Chris H.
In the CD test, the Nuevo was quicker than the Kook in the wet autocross.
Chris H.
| makofoto | 12-14-2005 11:35 PM |
In these tests ... I wonder how much of a difference AWD makes ... perhaps certain traits make more of a difference with RWD ?
| PhilC | 12-15-2005 09:21 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]You guys don't seem to put much stock in the various tire tests published in Car & Driver and EuroTuner ... we know that there are always problems ... and cars have to be tuned to the tire, etc.[/QUOTE]
Nope, no stock at all in those tests. Only the one done by GRM had any scientific method applied to it at all, Per and the group at GRM did a pretty darn good job of doing a tire test that actually meant something to an autocrosser IMO. But they could not take into account the changes that the car may need to make to maximize the tire, they just didn't have the time to spend with each tire trying different things and it might actually have thrown the results into more doubt if they HAD made changes to the car.
C&D put tire wear into their results. Something that is utterly and totally meaningless to someone who wants to win. Take that out of the C&D results and the Yok is suddenly the easy winner.
The simple fact is that if the tire size tested isn't the same as the one you use the results are meaningless because even within the same tire line there can be significant variances in carcass design between sizes. Heck the Yok in 225/45-17 comes in two different carcass designs (normal and Lotus) and that's the same tire in the same size. Throw in the huge variable of car type and you end up with things like a Goodyear looking good on a BMW. I won't even go into the possibility of advertiser money influencing the results but you have to realize it's there.
Honestly if you think the Goodyear (or insert whichever tire won the most recent test here) is going to be the best tire go buy some and try them. You could surprise everyone by showing that they are the tire to have for street tire autocross but I very much doubt it.
Nope, no stock at all in those tests. Only the one done by GRM had any scientific method applied to it at all, Per and the group at GRM did a pretty darn good job of doing a tire test that actually meant something to an autocrosser IMO. But they could not take into account the changes that the car may need to make to maximize the tire, they just didn't have the time to spend with each tire trying different things and it might actually have thrown the results into more doubt if they HAD made changes to the car.
C&D put tire wear into their results. Something that is utterly and totally meaningless to someone who wants to win. Take that out of the C&D results and the Yok is suddenly the easy winner.
The simple fact is that if the tire size tested isn't the same as the one you use the results are meaningless because even within the same tire line there can be significant variances in carcass design between sizes. Heck the Yok in 225/45-17 comes in two different carcass designs (normal and Lotus) and that's the same tire in the same size. Throw in the huge variable of car type and you end up with things like a Goodyear looking good on a BMW. I won't even go into the possibility of advertiser money influencing the results but you have to realize it's there.
Honestly if you think the Goodyear (or insert whichever tire won the most recent test here) is going to be the best tire go buy some and try them. You could surprise everyone by showing that they are the tire to have for street tire autocross but I very much doubt it.
| GRMPer | 12-15-2005 09:51 AM |
PhilC hits it right on there. We had time to dial in tire pressures for a tire, but that's about it. Our tests were done on two cars, one a top-notch CS Miata and the other a mild Sentra Spec-V with some STX changes. No time to change camber between tires.
The only companies that truly have the time and money to do real tire tests (and do them!) won't ever, ever publish the data. I've strolled through Michelin's Laurens Proving Ground (the behind the scenes stuff) and it's pretty wild. Certainly out of our league. I try to be as scientific as possible, within a tight budget and time constraint.
What's hard for many to understand is that the strangest things will affect times. Try testing on a partly cloudy day. Depending on the tire, if a cloud obscures the sun, the times will be slower until the sun comes back out. cloud=lower track temp, less traction for some tires, but not others. There are many, many confounding variables for tire testing. It'll make your head spin.
I honestly feel that we have developed the most valid tire tests for an autocrosser, but we are constantly working on making them better. Feedback from forums like these and my own growing experience level actually steer future tests. That's why we started cooling the tires...otherwise tires like the Azenis will be mucho slower than they really are.
Also, with Nats switching to asphalt, I think you'll see a shift in tire ranks.
The only companies that truly have the time and money to do real tire tests (and do them!) won't ever, ever publish the data. I've strolled through Michelin's Laurens Proving Ground (the behind the scenes stuff) and it's pretty wild. Certainly out of our league. I try to be as scientific as possible, within a tight budget and time constraint.
What's hard for many to understand is that the strangest things will affect times. Try testing on a partly cloudy day. Depending on the tire, if a cloud obscures the sun, the times will be slower until the sun comes back out. cloud=lower track temp, less traction for some tires, but not others. There are many, many confounding variables for tire testing. It'll make your head spin.
I honestly feel that we have developed the most valid tire tests for an autocrosser, but we are constantly working on making them better. Feedback from forums like these and my own growing experience level actually steer future tests. That's why we started cooling the tires...otherwise tires like the Azenis will be mucho slower than they really are.
Also, with Nats switching to asphalt, I think you'll see a shift in tire ranks.
| makofoto | 12-15-2005 11:46 AM |
I basically agree ... especially for max dry performance. And we know switching from a Falken to a Kook to a Yoko can completely change the cars handling. However when it comes to wet performance, especially where a lot of us don't have a chance to try different tires, these tests might help us.
In the EuroTuner test, the Goodyear GS-D3 was again first, because of it's outstanding wet performance followed by the Neova, top in the dry. The MX was last ... the Falken was mid pack over all but 2nd in the dry.
A sponsored Kuhmo driver told me that Kuhmo has been embarrassed by these tests and will now come out with a new Max performance tire. Hopefully for us, biased towards Dry handling. We should hope they don't give up dry performance in order to try to win overall by doing especially better in the wet.
I don't think any serious AX'er would pick the Goodyear product as their all around tire, unless perhaps they lived on the wet side of Maui. ;)
But if someone had the budget, the GS-D3 could be a spoiler in very wet conditions. It's softer sidewall and very light weight would be added bonus's. It would be cool if someone in one of our wetter states would buy these tires as their street tire ... and give us their feedback. I would even buy them here in Southern CA if I had the money ... since they seemingly have proven themselves at least as a great all around tire.
In the EuroTuner test, the Goodyear GS-D3 was again first, because of it's outstanding wet performance followed by the Neova, top in the dry. The MX was last ... the Falken was mid pack over all but 2nd in the dry.
A sponsored Kuhmo driver told me that Kuhmo has been embarrassed by these tests and will now come out with a new Max performance tire. Hopefully for us, biased towards Dry handling. We should hope they don't give up dry performance in order to try to win overall by doing especially better in the wet.
I don't think any serious AX'er would pick the Goodyear product as their all around tire, unless perhaps they lived on the wet side of Maui. ;)
But if someone had the budget, the GS-D3 could be a spoiler in very wet conditions. It's softer sidewall and very light weight would be added bonus's. It would be cool if someone in one of our wetter states would buy these tires as their street tire ... and give us their feedback. I would even buy them here in Southern CA if I had the money ... since they seemingly have proven themselves at least as a great all around tire.
| Scooby921 | 12-15-2005 12:54 PM |
^^
I've been thinking about buying a set of the GD-D3's for my daily driver tires and using my R-S2's purely for auto-xing. That way I have a designated set for dry weather performance, but for rainy days I'll have tires suited for the day!
I've been thinking about buying a set of the GD-D3's for my daily driver tires and using my R-S2's purely for auto-xing. That way I have a designated set for dry weather performance, but for rainy days I'll have tires suited for the day!
| GRMPer | 12-15-2005 01:06 PM |
You'll notice a few people will be doing this at larger Solo II events. One of them earned them a national championship!
| sciolist | 12-15-2005 01:53 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]As far as these Z212s in the wet. There is a reason that Hankook doesn't bother coming out with an R compound wet. Because the Z212 was faster then the Hoosier wet ;)[/QUOTE]
How does the Z212 compare to a full-tread RA-1 in the wet?
How does the Z212 compare to a full-tread RA-1 in the wet?
| makofoto | 12-15-2005 02:17 PM |
The RA-1 is of course a 100 wear R tire, not STX legal. The RA-1 isn't a great AX tire since it needs time to warm up, it's an excellent track tire ... so I can't imagine it would be a great AX rain tire.
The RA-1 use to be a 40 wear tire. Toyo changed it to 100 without making any changes to it, since they found it was wearing so well. It could also be that they fudged the original 40 to make it sound better when it was introduced, thinking that the 40 would make it sound extra sticky, a selling point. Now with really terrific 30, 40 wear R tires available ... the 100 perhaps makes a better selling point for them ... extra long wearing R tire.
The RA-1 use to be a 40 wear tire. Toyo changed it to 100 without making any changes to it, since they found it was wearing so well. It could also be that they fudged the original 40 to make it sound better when it was introduced, thinking that the 40 would make it sound extra sticky, a selling point. Now with really terrific 30, 40 wear R tires available ... the 100 perhaps makes a better selling point for them ... extra long wearing R tire.
| sciolist | 12-15-2005 02:31 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]The RA-1 is of course a 100 wear R tire, not STX legal. The RA-1 isn't a great AX tire since it needs time to warm up, it's an excellent track tire ... so I can't imagine it would be a great AX rain tire.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know. I'm asking because the RA-1 is the only tire other than the 070 that I have recent experience with autoXing in wet conditions. I'm just trying to use it as a guage.
Yeah, I know. I'm asking because the RA-1 is the only tire other than the 070 that I have recent experience with autoXing in wet conditions. I'm just trying to use it as a guage.
| omahasubaru | 12-15-2005 03:05 PM |
Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's anyone?
May be 'the' rain tire for ST* classes.
Looks good in the C&D tests, weren't used by GRM though.
May be 'the' rain tire for ST* classes.
Looks good in the C&D tests, weren't used by GRM though.
| trhoppe | 12-15-2005 03:26 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]You guys don't seem to put much stock in the various tire tests published in Car & Driver and EuroTuner ... [/QUOTE] Exactly, because their tests are bull****. They don't mean anything at *all*. The GRM test is as good as it gets and they still didn't optimize the tire for the car. When you are talking tenths that makes all the diff in the world. I can take a Hankook, which is a kickas tire at 36psi hot, run it at 48cold like an MX would like and I would lose over 0.5 on a course. I can take away some camber, like an Azenis would like, and I would lose more time. Also I can take that high pressure MX and run it at 36 psi and it would SUCK on a WRX, while at the higher pressures it would be ok.
Cliff Notes? Ignore all tire tests (except the GRM one ;) ) as they are bull****.
-Tom
Cliff Notes? Ignore all tire tests (except the GRM one ;) ) as they are bull****.
-Tom
| WRX_Mundi | 12-15-2005 03:59 PM |
Count me as another person who's interesting in the performance of a full-tread RA-1 in the wet. For my sites/car/driving, the RA-1 is hugely faster than a RE070 in the dry and not that much slower than a Victoracer. I've driven a couple damp courses with no-tread RA-1's and loved them (certainly better than A3S04s which were downright scary).
Anyway, given the choice of RA-1, Advan Neova, Hankook, or some other DOT tire, which would be best in the wet while still giving half-decent dry use? This is for someone who's too cheap to buy Radial Wets, doesn't own a trailer, and so has to live with only two sets of tires at an event including the ones that got driven the 200 miles to get there. So one set is of course the V710s, and the others have to handle some highway driving, possible use in the rain, and maybe some occasional dry runs during a test and tune.
Anyway, given the choice of RA-1, Advan Neova, Hankook, or some other DOT tire, which would be best in the wet while still giving half-decent dry use? This is for someone who's too cheap to buy Radial Wets, doesn't own a trailer, and so has to live with only two sets of tires at an event including the ones that got driven the 200 miles to get there. So one set is of course the V710s, and the others have to handle some highway driving, possible use in the rain, and maybe some occasional dry runs during a test and tune.
| sciolist | 12-15-2005 04:42 PM |
^As previously discussed, we're in the same boat here. I think the issue is not so much how good the dry traction of the wet tires is, it's how well they wear.
My plan is to drive to the events on the wets. Of course, in most cases I'll be running on my dry tires. What I want is a wet tire that's going to have competitve wet grip, but also that's going to last long enough that I can drive to a bunch of events on them and still have them ready for wet racing.
When the tread wears down to the point that they are no longer good for wet racing, I'll use them as street tires, not dry race tires.
I'm thinking either the Advan or the Z212 is going to be the way to go for this application.
My plan is to drive to the events on the wets. Of course, in most cases I'll be running on my dry tires. What I want is a wet tire that's going to have competitve wet grip, but also that's going to last long enough that I can drive to a bunch of events on them and still have them ready for wet racing.
When the tread wears down to the point that they are no longer good for wet racing, I'll use them as street tires, not dry race tires.
I'm thinking either the Advan or the Z212 is going to be the way to go for this application.
| dwx | 12-15-2005 07:23 PM |
I used a set of full tread RA-1s for street tires and autox wets on my SM WRX a couple years ago. I thought they worked very well in the wet. I did get caught in drying conditions on them a few times though, and they suck at full tread in the dry. You could probably get 10k+ miles out of them driving on the street and using them for occasional autocrosses.
| makofoto | 12-16-2005 12:20 AM |
Euro Tuner Tire Test;
[url]http://tinyurl.com/amq7c[/url]
[url]http://tinyurl.com/amq7c[/url]
| z3coupe | 12-16-2005 04:02 AM |
[QUOTE]The Yoks definitely required a different setup than the other tires we've used.[/QUOTE]Phil, what type of setup would you suggest for an 05 STi setup for STU then? I had once heard that they did not need much camber. But then, Richard Jung (drives a wicked EVO in STU) who has been using shaved Neova's for awhile told me to dial in as much negative camber as possible. With the KW V3's and PDE camber plates, I can set the fronts to about -3 camber. Richard also suggested that the Yoks don't like too high of pressures, so I run about 38 in front, and 37 in the rear.
| PhilC | 12-16-2005 08:52 AM |
We found that the Yoks liked what I consider a lot less static camber than the other tires we have tried. We actually ran between 2.7 and 2.9 depending on the surface with the Yoks where we would have run 3.5 or higher with the MXs. I'd have to go back through things to see what tire pressures we ran at each event but they were lower than that. If I remember right Mike and I felt the car was best at about 35 front cold and we never really decided on a rear pressure that we were entirely happy with, I know we tried everything from 32 to 40 in the back and I think we settled on 36ish feeling best to me and 32 feeling best to Mike. Next season we'll do a lot more testing with changes to rear toe and camber to see if we can make that end of the car behave better.
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