| Shadownynja | 01-26-2006 09:20 PM |
2-1 Downshift in autox
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Hey i've never autox'd before but definatley will be this summer. I was wondering if you often dowshift from second to first?
And if you do would you do it if lets say you were dropping down to 25mph. Would you hit first gear to get you back up to 30?
Also i plan on gettting an 02-03 bugeye. Do these downshift from 2nd to first good?
And if you do would you do it if lets say you were dropping down to 25mph. Would you hit first gear to get you back up to 30?
Also i plan on gettting an 02-03 bugeye. Do these downshift from 2nd to first good?
| Blk_on_Blk_Wgn | 01-26-2006 09:22 PM |
2-1 downs have to be timed right or you waste time
| trhoppe | 01-26-2006 09:26 PM |
You dont need to do it unless the course is SUPER tight. 2nd gear is usually faster.
| Shadownynja | 01-26-2006 09:27 PM |
So the average auto x event is get it into second and stay there?
| mofugga | 01-26-2006 09:39 PM |
[QUOTE=Shadownynja]So the average auto x event is get it into second and stay there?[/QUOTE]
exactly
exactly
| SIL01 | 01-26-2006 09:44 PM |
Unless you make a mistake and lose speed, there's usually no point in dropping to 2nd.
| REX8 | 01-26-2006 09:45 PM |
You really would just about have to be coming to stop to justify it... even the tightest hairpins usually do better in 2nd. Just gut out the lag and stay as smooth as possible...
| leecea | 01-26-2006 09:53 PM |
To answer your other question, no WRXs do not shift down into 1st very well. On mine, you have to double-clutch the 2-1 downshift, even at low speed.
| Impreza01 | 01-26-2006 10:11 PM |
[QUOTE=leecea]To answer your other question, no WRXs do not shift down into 1st very well. On mine, you have to double-clutch the 2-1 downshift, even at low speed.[/QUOTE]
The 2006 WRXs have a double-cone synchro on first gear as oppose to our crappy baulk ring synchro. Users report it's very easy to downshift into first gear.
In Auto-x, you really don't need to downshift into first gear unless you make a mistake. The reason is 1, unless you have a 2006 WRX or an STI, you'll need to double clutch in order to put the car in first gear. 2nd reason is first gear is such a high ratio, that you'll probably downshift into it, and be at 5k rpms already. The rest of the 2k rpms will go by really fast and then you'll have to upshift. Each shift loses about 0.5 seconds (ballpark, I'm sure some people can do shifts in 0.3 seconds, but that's really brutal for the gearbox; sequentials like Ferraris F1 and BMW's SMG shift faster than a human can without a dogbox, and they still take .25 to .28 seconds to do shifts).
The 2006 WRXs have a double-cone synchro on first gear as oppose to our crappy baulk ring synchro. Users report it's very easy to downshift into first gear.
In Auto-x, you really don't need to downshift into first gear unless you make a mistake. The reason is 1, unless you have a 2006 WRX or an STI, you'll need to double clutch in order to put the car in first gear. 2nd reason is first gear is such a high ratio, that you'll probably downshift into it, and be at 5k rpms already. The rest of the 2k rpms will go by really fast and then you'll have to upshift. Each shift loses about 0.5 seconds (ballpark, I'm sure some people can do shifts in 0.3 seconds, but that's really brutal for the gearbox; sequentials like Ferraris F1 and BMW's SMG shift faster than a human can without a dogbox, and they still take .25 to .28 seconds to do shifts).
| trhoppe | 01-26-2006 11:21 PM |
Last but not least, w/o some really wide R-comps, you will spin tires and get slightly sideways and *lose* speed by going to 1st.
-Tom
-Tom
| WRXedUSA | 01-27-2006 12:22 AM |
Well, my personal goal is to be smooth. Smooth and fast usually go hand in hand in autoX.
We get tiny ass lots around here, so 1st gear often comes to mind.
If you have a tight hairpin, or decreasing radius corner, you *can* do it by slowly applying the brake while in neutral, lightly pushing the gear selector into the 1 gate, slowing the drivetrain enough to where 1st will engage. Right before it engages, flip the throttle up to around 4500rpm, and whil the rpm's fall, slip the clutch to your preferred, controlled exit speed (no sideways action or smoking tires).
I got very good at it in my old WRX, but I can't remember if I was improving my time or not. I did turn a few heads with my method tough!
We get tiny ass lots around here, so 1st gear often comes to mind.
If you have a tight hairpin, or decreasing radius corner, you *can* do it by slowly applying the brake while in neutral, lightly pushing the gear selector into the 1 gate, slowing the drivetrain enough to where 1st will engage. Right before it engages, flip the throttle up to around 4500rpm, and whil the rpm's fall, slip the clutch to your preferred, controlled exit speed (no sideways action or smoking tires).
I got very good at it in my old WRX, but I can't remember if I was improving my time or not. I did turn a few heads with my method tough!
| Homemade WRX | 01-27-2006 12:32 AM |
[QUOTE=Blk_on_Blk_Wgn]2-1 downs have to be timed right or you waste time[/QUOTE]
yup....and for the 25-30, not worth the downshift...
yup....and for the 25-30, not worth the downshift...
| Homemade WRX | 01-27-2006 12:34 AM |
[QUOTE=Shadownynja]So the average auto x event is get it into second and stay there?[/QUOTE]
yes...when you have to start shifting, like the Formula SAE car I drive, there are a lot more things to focus on...our car tops out at 82 mph....so I see all 6 gears on our tiny pungo track...
yes...when you have to start shifting, like the Formula SAE car I drive, there are a lot more things to focus on...our car tops out at 82 mph....so I see all 6 gears on our tiny pungo track...
| Sideshowbob | 01-27-2006 09:22 AM |
I never have found that it feels or is any faster to downshift to first. I just make an effort to get onto the gas that much earlier b/c you arent going to get a surge of understeering power at 2,200 RPM.
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 12:13 PM |
Interesting responses, particularly from Tom.
It depends on the car. With a DS WRX at local events, I definitely think you'll be shifting to first. With an SM WRX maybe not. On large, open, NT-style courses probably not.
I have yet to see a situation where it was faster to shift to first in the STi - even with OEM power delivery.
If you can accomplish the downshift effectively it's not going to cost you any time. The upshift obviously will. My experience has been that it's more important to be able to accelerate hard at local small-lot events. Our local lot has close to a 6:1 aspect ratio, so there are almost always going to be situations where you have to transition between a slow exit and a relatively straight section of course. The issue here is not just the time it takes to accomplish the shift, it's also how much time you can spend accelerating hard before you have to brake again. Exiting turns in the bottom of second in a stock WRX is not a good situation to be in, particularly when you're exiting into terrain where hard acceleration is practical.
On the large courses, my experience has been that there isn't a lot of hard braking. There aren't as many places where you're in a state of maximum forward acceleration. Most of the time you're cornering, and it's critical to keep the car moving because of the sheer length of the run.
It depends on the car. With a DS WRX at local events, I definitely think you'll be shifting to first. With an SM WRX maybe not. On large, open, NT-style courses probably not.
I have yet to see a situation where it was faster to shift to first in the STi - even with OEM power delivery.
If you can accomplish the downshift effectively it's not going to cost you any time. The upshift obviously will. My experience has been that it's more important to be able to accelerate hard at local small-lot events. Our local lot has close to a 6:1 aspect ratio, so there are almost always going to be situations where you have to transition between a slow exit and a relatively straight section of course. The issue here is not just the time it takes to accomplish the shift, it's also how much time you can spend accelerating hard before you have to brake again. Exiting turns in the bottom of second in a stock WRX is not a good situation to be in, particularly when you're exiting into terrain where hard acceleration is practical.
On the large courses, my experience has been that there isn't a lot of hard braking. There aren't as many places where you're in a state of maximum forward acceleration. Most of the time you're cornering, and it's critical to keep the car moving because of the sheer length of the run.
| dave bruener | 01-27-2006 12:26 PM |
To the Shadowninja, I autoX in Milwaukee all the time, and there is seldom if ever a need to down shift on the courses here. Nice big lot at Miller Park and good course designers. Like you said, concentrate on smooth and fast!
| REX8 | 01-27-2006 12:36 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]yes...when you have to start shifting, like the Formula SAE car I drive, there are a lot more things to focus on...our car tops out at 82 mph....so I see all 6 gears on our tiny pungo track...[/QUOTE]
Jesus you're geared short...
There are advatages to shifting less you know.... :lol:
We usually set up for about 100. A 600 is meaty enough to run most courses in 2,3,4 in the power.
Jesus you're geared short...
There are advatages to shifting less you know.... :lol:
We usually set up for about 100. A 600 is meaty enough to run most courses in 2,3,4 in the power.
| REX8 | 01-27-2006 12:39 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Interesting responses, particularly from Tom.
It depends on the car. With a DS WRX at local events, I definitely think you'll be shifting to first. With an SM WRX maybe not. On large, open, NT-style courses probably not.
[/QUOTE]
^^^I'm gonna say a strong no. It would take a VERY, VERY tight turn to make a downshift worth it.
It depends on the car. With a DS WRX at local events, I definitely think you'll be shifting to first. With an SM WRX maybe not. On large, open, NT-style courses probably not.
[/QUOTE]
^^^I'm gonna say a strong no. It would take a VERY, VERY tight turn to make a downshift worth it.
| Shadownynja | 01-27-2006 12:54 PM |
[QUOTE=dave bruener]To the Shadowninja, I autoX in Milwaukee all the time, and there is seldom if ever a need to down shift on the courses here. Nice big lot at Miller Park and good course designers. Like you said, concentrate on smooth and fast![/QUOTE]
I came and watched a couple of miller park events last year. Cant wait to join in.
I came and watched a couple of miller park events last year. Cant wait to join in.
| tuskenraider | 01-27-2006 01:19 PM |
[QUOTE]It depends on the car. With a DS WRX at local events, I definitely think you'll be shifting to first.[/QUOTE] I agree. At some time you will run into a course that puts you below boost in some tight corner and you will accelerate saaloooow by staying in second. Obviously if you're not quick with the pedals, it may be best for YOU to stay in second, but getting it into first before a turn like this has proven to be beneficial to me. In the Chicago SCCA Region we have pretty long courses, but at least half of the events I'll be going into first at least once with even my STX prepped car.
A lot of people have difficulty with a 2-1 downshift with the WRX and most owners as myself will agree the trans can be notchy so that can make it difficult. I bought my 05 new and with 19K on the clock at this point, I still have NO difficulty with a 2-1 downshift if the car is warm and I properly rev match. Maybe I'm lucky so far.
A lot of people have difficulty with a 2-1 downshift with the WRX and most owners as myself will agree the trans can be notchy so that can make it difficult. I bought my 05 new and with 19K on the clock at this point, I still have NO difficulty with a 2-1 downshift if the car is warm and I properly rev match. Maybe I'm lucky so far.
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 01:29 PM |
I've never driven a fully-prepped STX WRX, so I'm not sure if I'd be more or less likely to 2>1 in it than a DS car, but on small lots there is absolutely _no_ question that it's often faster to shift to first. The only possible mitigating factor I can see there is heavy LFB, which I do not use - at least not as a means of keeping the turbo spooled on tight sweepers.
| gc822 | 01-27-2006 01:33 PM |
[QUOTE=Shadownynja]Hey i've never autox'd before but definatley will be this summer. I was wondering if you often dowshift from second to first?
And if you do would you do it if lets say you were dropping down to 25mph. Would you hit first gear to get you back up to 30?
Also i plan on gettting an 02-03 bugeye. Do these downshift from 2nd to first good?[/QUOTE]
if you plan on dropping it to first during harsh driving I would recommend using a high performance gear oil and making sure that you are double clutching/rev matching
otherwise you may bork the tranny
And if you do would you do it if lets say you were dropping down to 25mph. Would you hit first gear to get you back up to 30?
Also i plan on gettting an 02-03 bugeye. Do these downshift from 2nd to first good?[/QUOTE]
if you plan on dropping it to first during harsh driving I would recommend using a high performance gear oil and making sure that you are double clutching/rev matching
otherwise you may bork the tranny
| trhoppe | 01-27-2006 01:53 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]I've never driven a fully-prepped STX WRX, so I'm not sure if I'd be more or less likely to 2>1 in it than a DS car, but on small lots there is absolutely _no_ question that it's often faster to shift to first. The only possible mitigating factor I can see there is heavy LFB, which I do not use - at least not as a means of keeping the turbo spooled on tight sweepers.[/QUOTE]
I've only found 1 autox where it was worth it to shift to 1st and that autox I just ran all the way in 1st gear.
-Tom
I've only found 1 autox where it was worth it to shift to 1st and that autox I just ran all the way in 1st gear.
-Tom
| crystalhelix | 01-27-2006 01:58 PM |
2-3rd is fastAr
I love our 6 acre VDA, it frequently allows shifts to 3rd in teh Sti
I love our 6 acre VDA, it frequently allows shifts to 3rd in teh Sti
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I've only found 1 autox where it was worth it to shift to 1st and that autox I just ran all the way in 1st gear.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Okay, well of course you have much more experience in the WRX (and much more overall experience as well) but I am just not seeing the rationale for this at all, lol.
The WRX is my wife's car, I run the STi. I'm very much looking forward to having the WRX prepped better for 2006 and I plan to learn a lot from it. It's pretty illuminating to run it back-to-back with the BSP STi.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Okay, well of course you have much more experience in the WRX (and much more overall experience as well) but I am just not seeing the rationale for this at all, lol.
The WRX is my wife's car, I run the STi. I'm very much looking forward to having the WRX prepped better for 2006 and I plan to learn a lot from it. It's pretty illuminating to run it back-to-back with the BSP STi.
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 02:15 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]2-3rd is fastAr[/QUOTE]
Sure it is, in your STi.
Sure it is, in your STi.
| KC | 01-27-2006 02:16 PM |
So, it's a 'no' then?
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 02:18 PM |
It's a 'pretty frequently' on small lots and a 'almost no' on big ones. :)
| KC | 01-27-2006 02:25 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]It's a 'pretty frequently' on small lots and a 'almost no' on big ones. :)[/QUOTE]
As far as subarus go... No! Bad Monkey!
My RX8 goes into 1st as smooth as an S2000... and they need 1st sometimes, and can get 1st at 30mph. ;) (Oscoda & Toledo Prosolos last year... I got 1st on both of those courses... and needed it... fastest in Toledo). ;)
As far as subarus go... No! Bad Monkey!
My RX8 goes into 1st as smooth as an S2000... and they need 1st sometimes, and can get 1st at 30mph. ;) (Oscoda & Toledo Prosolos last year... I got 1st on both of those courses... and needed it... fastest in Toledo). ;)
| crystalhelix | 01-27-2006 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]
My RX8 goes into 1st as smooth as an S2000...[/QUOTE]
Smooth, gear crunching....it's all the same thing :rolleyes:
2nd gear FTW!
My RX8 goes into 1st as smooth as an S2000...[/QUOTE]
Smooth, gear crunching....it's all the same thing :rolleyes:
2nd gear FTW!
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 02:31 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]As far as subarus go... No! Bad Monkey![/QUOTE]
Too bad you're both on the East Coast. I would be very interested to expand my empirical data.
Too bad you're both on the East Coast. I would be very interested to expand my empirical data.
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 02:33 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]2nd gear FTW![/QUOTE]
Maybe not, with the BSP tune. WOOT!
Maybe not, with the BSP tune. WOOT!
| endeavor | 01-27-2006 03:22 PM |
While the downshifting to 1st in a WRX is debatable, I will say that as a novice you definitely do not want to worry about it. You will have other much more important things to worry about on your first time out: line, visualization, timing, and having fun. Relatively speaking, to downshift or not is insignificant. Worry about that when you are competing for tenths of a second on your ET.
| crystalhelix | 01-27-2006 03:45 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist]Maybe not, with the BSP tune. WOOT![/QUOTE]
Yes, woot!
Yes, woot!
| trhoppe | 01-27-2006 05:29 PM |
I guess I never ran on "super small" lots. Anywhere where I thought I would need 1st, or I tried 1st, I was always just as fast staying in 2nd and just getting on the gas WAY earlier.
-Tom
-Tom
| cooleyjb | 01-27-2006 06:11 PM |
As for the original poster, I've never needed 1st gear at a SCCA Milwaukee course after I left the start. In both a DS and an STX WRX
joe
joe
| Impreza01 | 01-27-2006 06:16 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I guess I never ran on "super small" lots. Anywhere where I thought I would need 1st, or I tried 1st, I was always just as fast staying in 2nd and just getting on the gas WAY earlier.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Seriously... are the downshifters to 1st on something tighter than a go-kart course? :confused:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Seriously... are the downshifters to 1st on something tighter than a go-kart course? :confused:
| sciolist | 01-27-2006 06:17 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I guess I never ran on "super small" lots. Anywhere where I thought I would need 1st, or I tried 1st, I was always just as fast staying in 2nd and just getting on the gas WAY earlier.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
And I suppose you may be right, particularly if a butt-load of LFB is applied.
In the case of my small-lot experience with the WRX, it's not so much the smallness, but the narrowness of the lot that comes into play. As I said, this particular lot is on the order of 6:1, so there are always dramatic transitions between slow turns and relative straights. I don't care *how* early you get on the gas, you're still going to be sloshing around in the bottom of second for a long time at the exit. You'd have to be completely lame on the shifting to lose more time there than you would waiting around for boost in second.
I suspect that better grip is going to make a significant difference, but my reference point is 235 RA-1's, which surely have better grip than anything being used in STX - hence my interest in your response.
In any case, I am very much looking forward to messing around with the WRX this coming season. It's a completely different different deal than the STi - that's for sure.
Hopefully I'll be able to coax my wife up to Packwood for a few events as well, so I can experiment on the big lot. Maybe I'll even be able to get her out to Kansas. :)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
And I suppose you may be right, particularly if a butt-load of LFB is applied.
In the case of my small-lot experience with the WRX, it's not so much the smallness, but the narrowness of the lot that comes into play. As I said, this particular lot is on the order of 6:1, so there are always dramatic transitions between slow turns and relative straights. I don't care *how* early you get on the gas, you're still going to be sloshing around in the bottom of second for a long time at the exit. You'd have to be completely lame on the shifting to lose more time there than you would waiting around for boost in second.
I suspect that better grip is going to make a significant difference, but my reference point is 235 RA-1's, which surely have better grip than anything being used in STX - hence my interest in your response.
In any case, I am very much looking forward to messing around with the WRX this coming season. It's a completely different different deal than the STi - that's for sure.
Hopefully I'll be able to coax my wife up to Packwood for a few events as well, so I can experiment on the big lot. Maybe I'll even be able to get her out to Kansas. :)
| fliz | 01-27-2006 06:18 PM |
[QUOTE=cooleyjb]As for the original poster, I've never needed 1st gear at a SCCA Milwaukee course after I left the start. In both a DS and an STX WRX
joe[/QUOTE]
I just noticed the location of the OP.
You will not need to shift back to 1st on any course in the area.
The only group w/ a small lot and tight courses is Fox Valley, and even there you will be faster staying in second & focusing on a smooth line. I learned this one day when I was slamming the WRX into first a couple times on course, only to ride with a national-level driver and see him stay in second the whole time and run 2 seconds faster than my times.
joe[/QUOTE]
I just noticed the location of the OP.
You will not need to shift back to 1st on any course in the area.
The only group w/ a small lot and tight courses is Fox Valley, and even there you will be faster staying in second & focusing on a smooth line. I learned this one day when I was slamming the WRX into first a couple times on course, only to ride with a national-level driver and see him stay in second the whole time and run 2 seconds faster than my times.
| mastershakewrx | 01-27-2006 06:24 PM |
i hav an 02 wrx i double clutch and rev match to go from 2nd to first when needed around 5-15mph works fine for me.
edit: ive never autocrossed just my experience from day to day driving
edit: ive never autocrossed just my experience from day to day driving
| REX8 | 01-27-2006 06:29 PM |
[QUOTE=tuskenraider]I agree. At some time you will run into a course that puts you below boost in some tight corner and you will accelerate saaloooow by staying in second. Obviously if you're not quick with the pedals, it may be best for YOU to stay in second, but getting it into first before a turn like this has proven to be beneficial to me. In the Chicago SCCA Region we have pretty long courses, but at least half of the events I'll be going into first at least once with even my STX prepped car.
A lot of people have difficulty with a 2-1 downshift with the WRX and most owners as myself will agree the trans can be notchy so that can make it difficult. I bought my 05 new and with 19K on the clock at this point, I still have NO difficulty with a 2-1 downshift if the car is warm and I properly rev match. Maybe I'm lucky so far.[/QUOTE]
In my years of autox...I'd have to say that the new(er) drivers tend to be the ones down shifting into first. I highly doubt you'd see a national level driver downshifting like that, I sure never have, its not a matter of footwork at all. People get caught up in thinking that the feeling of coming out of the hole like that is really benefiting them. 99% of the time, it just feels faster.
In general, not shifting is something that seasoned guys tell newer people. Find me a pro that does it regularly...bet you can't
A lot of people have difficulty with a 2-1 downshift with the WRX and most owners as myself will agree the trans can be notchy so that can make it difficult. I bought my 05 new and with 19K on the clock at this point, I still have NO difficulty with a 2-1 downshift if the car is warm and I properly rev match. Maybe I'm lucky so far.[/QUOTE]
In my years of autox...I'd have to say that the new(er) drivers tend to be the ones down shifting into first. I highly doubt you'd see a national level driver downshifting like that, I sure never have, its not a matter of footwork at all. People get caught up in thinking that the feeling of coming out of the hole like that is really benefiting them. 99% of the time, it just feels faster.
In general, not shifting is something that seasoned guys tell newer people. Find me a pro that does it regularly...bet you can't
| tuskenraider | 01-27-2006 11:43 PM |
Well I'm "new" since I've only been doing autox for a little over one season, so maybe that's my problem and I'll learn differently. I will humbly note I was good enough to win my first season in STX and a solo rookie of the year award for Chicago Region SCCA, which is not annual. This is no way makes me an expert, but to me, some of the driving is just common sense and it worked for me. Other parts I have lots to learn. There are so many variables from course to course for someone to say you should rarely have to shift to 1st, I find unbelievable at this point. I don't have specific runs, or logs to reference past instances, but I know enough when my car is down on power for extended periods, I'm gonna do something about it, downshift, change my line, LFB, etc. There are lots of tools to use and to constantly learn how to use. This may give you veterans a chuckle, but when I hear, "get on the gas earlier", I'm thinking you must of got on the brakes to early for that to even be an option. If all the competitive National drivers don't downshift, than I guess it'll just take time for me to disregard that as an option.
| crystalhelix | 01-27-2006 11:49 PM |
You just need to commit to the gas earlier when things feel laggy. I find this to be true in my STi, almost like predicting any lag you would have.
I have a local club that uses a pool parking lot, there have been rare occassions when I have dropped into 1st but I am still not sure whether it benefited or not, it felt right, but butt dynos have been wrong before.
Justin
I have a local club that uses a pool parking lot, there have been rare occassions when I have dropped into 1st but I am still not sure whether it benefited or not, it felt right, but butt dynos have been wrong before.
Justin
| BIGSKYWRX | 01-28-2006 11:33 AM |
I'd prefer to say- never say never :) We sometimes have some hairpin turns thrown in where I feel I have to shift to 1st- I may be lucky as well but I've never had a problem w/ 2->1 shifting in either of my WRX's (02 or 04). We're fortunate in that it's usually small turnouts and get lots of runs- I've tried it both ways on some of these courses and my downshift runs were faster. Ofcourse YMMV. Conversely I'll be perfectly honest and say there were courses where I was downshifting on some runs, only to find my times were actually slower (w/ the perception that the downshifted runs were quicker), than not downshifting.
Obvioulsy if one can get away w/o downshifting you'll be better off (left foot braking, getting into the gas quciker, etc), but I have been on several courses where I felt 2->1 was imperative- ofcourse those are the course I really don't like :(. Those fortunately were balanced out w/ a couple of courses last year where I was upshifting to 3rd :devil:
Obvioulsy if one can get away w/o downshifting you'll be better off (left foot braking, getting into the gas quciker, etc), but I have been on several courses where I felt 2->1 was imperative- ofcourse those are the course I really don't like :(. Those fortunately were balanced out w/ a couple of courses last year where I was upshifting to 3rd :devil:
| jcroy66 | 01-28-2006 12:18 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I've only found 1 autox where it was worth it to shift to 1st and that autox I just ran all the way in 1st gear. [/QUOTE]And Tom just illustrated why you shouldn't listen to any advice he gives you AT a race, before your runs, at least if you're in his same class. ;)
2004 Toledo ProSolo:
[QUOTE=Tom]Oh yeah, that turnaround, it's definitely faster to shift into first!! You're giving up lots of time if you're not shifting![/QUOTE]:lol:
2004 Toledo ProSolo:
[QUOTE=Tom]Oh yeah, that turnaround, it's definitely faster to shift into first!! You're giving up lots of time if you're not shifting![/QUOTE]:lol:
| silver arrow | 01-28-2006 10:08 PM |
[QUOTE=Blk_on_Blk_Wgn]2-1 downs have to be timed right or you waste time[/QUOTE]I'm a decent driver and missed 25% of the 2-1 downshifts I tried today. It is hard to time and match revs just right. I was faster staying in 2nd even when I times the 2-1 right on really slow corners. Go figure.
| silver arrow | 01-28-2006 10:11 PM |
[QUOTE=endeavor]While the downshifting to 1st in a WRX is debatable, I will say that as a novice you definitely do not want to worry about it. You will have other much more important things to worry about on your first time out: line, visualization, timing, and having fun. Relatively speaking, to downshift or not is insignificant. Worry about that when you are competing for tenths of a second on your ET.[/QUOTE]
Best advice here yet.
Best advice here yet.
| Homemade WRX | 01-29-2006 12:00 AM |
[QUOTE=REX8]Jesus you're geared short...
There are advatages to shifting less you know.... :lol:
We usually set up for about 100. A 600 is meaty enough to run most courses in 2,3,4 in the power.[/QUOTE]
trust me I know (I can send you the SAE paper) and I didn't get to choose the gearing...that's why I'm working on our 100 millisecond shifter...it's electric... :devil:
I'll have post up when the EE get's done with the PIC...
I did fail to mention we have removed first gear in our tranny...so really 2-6
There are advatages to shifting less you know.... :lol:
We usually set up for about 100. A 600 is meaty enough to run most courses in 2,3,4 in the power.[/QUOTE]
trust me I know (I can send you the SAE paper) and I didn't get to choose the gearing...that's why I'm working on our 100 millisecond shifter...it's electric... :devil:
I'll have post up when the EE get's done with the PIC...
I did fail to mention we have removed first gear in our tranny...so really 2-6
| WRX_Mundi | 01-29-2006 06:21 PM |
I have heard that WRX's can be very difficult, but with my 2004 STi there isn't any problem. No different than my '96 Miata. I just rev match and it goes right in with no fuss.
I'm no Tom or KC, but I did win overall PAX for two regions last year, including beating a few national trophy winners. My car has a TBE but stock ECU, so there's more lag than a tuned car. Yes, second gear and being early is great, but I've gone into first quite a few times at autocrosses. There's also a lot to be said for being good, smooth, and having sticky tires, which lets you do some tight sections very fast, removing the need for 1st. I don't drive whole sections of the course in 1st -- I just use it when the designers put in an incredibly slow turn.
Shifting to first is obnoxious. You not only have the time taken to shift into first, then back to second afterwards, but you've got risk each time -- you may screw it up. Then there is the sheer amount of torque delivered to the gound in first -- you have to be [i]very[/i] smooth with the throttle or the car will get away from you and you've lost everything. Worst of all, in my opinion, is the concentration loss. You'll often do better just concentrating 100% on your line, your footwork, the next corner, etc. than spending brain time on shifting. With all that said, I still do it occasionally, and obviously because I think it is faster at the time.
The main time I'll do it is for a tight 180 spin cone (Evo school phase 3 has one, though it's pretty open and I used 2nd for it). Even then it isn't always the best -- it depends on the line the course allows you to go in and out. If I find myself forced to drive straight into the cone, then do a 180 around it, first gear is faster for me. But for the tenth or two it gains, combined with all the negatives above, it's best for novices not to do it -- you'll also not be tempted to try it in other cases when you shouldn't do it anyway.
I'm no Tom or KC, but I did win overall PAX for two regions last year, including beating a few national trophy winners. My car has a TBE but stock ECU, so there's more lag than a tuned car. Yes, second gear and being early is great, but I've gone into first quite a few times at autocrosses. There's also a lot to be said for being good, smooth, and having sticky tires, which lets you do some tight sections very fast, removing the need for 1st. I don't drive whole sections of the course in 1st -- I just use it when the designers put in an incredibly slow turn.
Shifting to first is obnoxious. You not only have the time taken to shift into first, then back to second afterwards, but you've got risk each time -- you may screw it up. Then there is the sheer amount of torque delivered to the gound in first -- you have to be [i]very[/i] smooth with the throttle or the car will get away from you and you've lost everything. Worst of all, in my opinion, is the concentration loss. You'll often do better just concentrating 100% on your line, your footwork, the next corner, etc. than spending brain time on shifting. With all that said, I still do it occasionally, and obviously because I think it is faster at the time.
The main time I'll do it is for a tight 180 spin cone (Evo school phase 3 has one, though it's pretty open and I used 2nd for it). Even then it isn't always the best -- it depends on the line the course allows you to go in and out. If I find myself forced to drive straight into the cone, then do a 180 around it, first gear is faster for me. But for the tenth or two it gains, combined with all the negatives above, it's best for novices not to do it -- you'll also not be tempted to try it in other cases when you shouldn't do it anyway.
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